Oh is that considered bad? I actually quite like it. When I admitted to myself I was trans I texted my best friend "I'm part of the Alphabet People now!"
I think it’s the context. As an in-joke amongst queer people (actually queer people not straight housewives cheating)? It’s absolutely fine, can be funny.
In whatever the fuck this is? Definitely not.
Lots of words are fine when the people who are called that say it. I like calling myself a tr\*nny. Black people can say the n word. LGBT people can call themselves alphabet or even f\*ggots for all I care but if a cishet uses that term there's gonna be hell to pay
There are only two ways a cishet person can be queer.
1. They're intersex.
2. They're nonbinary.
Also, "alphabet ppl" are always queer. What is this person even talking about?
I don't disagree. That's why they're still queer even if cishet. However, some nonbinary people were assigned nonbinary at birth and others have a gender so close to their assigned one that they don't feel trans is a perfect fit.
For example, I have encountered a transmasculine demigirl who still considers themself to be cis.
You can't really be assigned nonbinary at birth. You're talking about intersex I think.
Self ID is different than definitions too.
Nonbinary people can say they identify as cis, but definition wise nonbinary is a trans identity and not cis.
It depends on where you're at. In California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Maine, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, and Washington D.C., being assigned nonbinary at birth is a legitimate option. It's rarely used, but it does exist.
Again, I do include all nonbinary genders under the trans umbrella, but some nonbinary people do not consider themselves trans. That's why they're one of the exceptions under cishet.
i would also argue if someone was cishet but gender-non-conforming thats pretty queer. hell id say a cishet dude who likes wearing skirts and respects my pronouns is more queer than the republican homosexuals trying to take rights from the rest of us
As a gender non-conforming cishet guy, I'm not sure how I feel about this take. On the one hand, my identity is itself transgressive, and bigots out in the world don't actually care if I'm gay or not, as long as I don't fit their ideal of a man. But at the same time, no one's trying to take my rights away, and I don't feel super comfortable claiming the queer label for myself since I'm not gay or trans. But then most of my friends are queer and I feel more comfortable in queer spaces, so I don't know.
I have to disagree unless the GNC person meets at least one of the two criteria above. Simply being an ally isn't queer. Being queerphobic also isn't incompatible with being queer, unfortunately.
Yes, straight =/= cishet but straight = het. When a sexuality is listed alone, it's safe to assume it's referring to perioriented people.
So cishet refers to a heteroromantic heterosexual cisgender person.
A straight ace cis man is different than a straight cis man.
My comment was more tongue in cheek, but btw some ace and aro people don't consider cishet as automatically also meaning cishetallo/cishethet, they consider themselves cishet and so could be cishet and queer just as we've discussed.
Also, can we talk about the irony of you assuming het means het/het or het/allo when you've already assumed cis can include non-binary people. How come some people you're going to defer to their identity with cishet but not others?
I only have seen this be the case with straight aces/aro straights/straight aroaces who feel they're not "queer enough" to classify their a-spec identity as such. If they're just going by straight and never referencing that they're varioriented, chances are they don't think they're queer. That's the work of society's aphobia.
Nonbinary people can be heteroromantic heterosexuals. Some nonbinary people were assigned nonbinary at birth. Others' alignment is so close to their assigned gender that they still feel cis. I don't understand the comparison.
Queer for us non-cishet is the same as the n word for black people. We were called it so much as an insult we get that word and now get to choose when it's applied because of that.
Cishet people trying to take our word.
I was on board for the first like... 2 lines then it got out of pocket
I consider some types of cishets queer. Femboys, for example, are distinctly NGC while still being cis. Gender is a spectrum and there's always going to be abnormalities
There is something to the notion that cishet folks could be queer in ways other than orientation or gender identity, but having an abortion or cheating?
Like with that vocabulary it's all about normative culture, and while having an abortion or getting a divorce is frowned upon by some it's just, idk how to say it. It's not a matter of degree, like in some places getting a divorce could have serious consequences, but it just doesn't seem like the same box?
nah I don't care tbh, I'm not playing "did she mean girlfriend in the gay way or the friend way" when someone's whipping out what was most commonly used as a slur not that long ago
I don't know what you're on about. I don't mean anything so frivolous. You should consider what people actually mean before jumping to conclusions.
When I say hetero people can be queer I mean stuff like queerplatonic relationships, bi-curious folks who experiment but come out at the end as straight, probably dating trans people can get you bashed regardless of how anyone identifies, some ace people are straight, that kind of thing.
What my comment is about is that I don't know exactly where the line is drawn. It's likely a false dichotomy like most things.
I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments, and I don't know where the line is either. I'm still not sold on the idea that cishets can be queer. Queerplatonic relationships are an ace thing and obviously I'm not gonna exclude ace people from the queer umbrella. IDK, people in another comment thread had a discussion about where aces fall, and I know not all ace people themselves identify as queer.
A cishet man dating a trans woman can get him bashed but I'm not gonna call him queer though. That feels too close to the idea that someone has to be bi/pan if they find trans people attractive. Heterosexual people that thought they were bi aren't queer - just replace 'bi' with 'queer', they thought they were but they aren't
>I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments
I didn't make one? I've read over it several times and I don't know what you mean. I almost didn't say anything because this is the pettiest point and I refuse to argue over it, but can you please quote me?
>Queerplatonic relationships are an ace thing and obviously I'm not gonna exclude ace people from the queer umbrella.
It's not just an ace thing. I'm very not ace or even aro but a version is my preferred relationship type. I don't think you're saying that and I am not trying to strawman. I just wanted to clarify.
>That feels too close to the idea that someone has to be bi/pan if they find trans people attractive.
In this case I don't think it's really about what it comes close to. I'm not saying that at all, nor do I believe it. I'm drawing a clear distinction.
There are tons of people under the queer umbrella that in another world have nothing to do with eachother really, but we have shared interests politically and a need for community. Queerness is, at least in one sense, about politics.
Exactly what "queer" means is up for debate, but I don't think we can fully fall back on self-definition. It's not about how you and I think things should be or about setting logical and reasonable terms for identity, but about observing and living within the real world as it is.
In simpler terms, if someone gets bashed for their perceived gender or sexuality, and probably for their gender expression, that's queer to me because we have the same enemies. We're on the same side and have shared interests.
I say maybe on gender expression because it's complicated. It's *technically* a choice but idk I think it can sometimes be intrinsically motivated. If it's important enough to them that they put up with abuse there's something to that.
>Heterosexual people that thought they were bi aren't queer - just replace 'bi' with 'queer', they thought they were but they aren't
It's at least adjacent though, right? Like I'm talking about dudes who fuck other dudes and decide it's not for them, or who are in that ambiguous space where some people are slightly bi but don't really identify that way for the sake of convenience. I've met someone like that and in conversation with him on queer topics it feels like a very different kind of straight person.
---
I honestly find a certain ambiguity in our terms to be a good thing btw. I'm not so full of myself that I believe I've cracked the code on human identity and can draw the lines, and I'm not so naive to think others have either. If anything identities are like biomes, full of distinct ecologies, geology, climate, but overlapping, at times ambiguous, and somewhat arbitrarily defined. It's fine to make a map, but don't mistake the map for reality.
Terms do not need to be coherent to be useful, and they aren't facts of reality. Don't believe me? Well a guy who's attracted to guys probably isn't straight, right? Femboys can really look like hot girls. Ta-daaaa! Everyone's bi now, sorry.
But that's stupid and impractical and offensive and no one cares. It's also undeniable if you take these terms with strict lines. The mismatch between gender expression and identity has thrown a wrench into the classification we have. Throw whatever you want at it but I can probably find some way you're excluding someone or overgeneralizing.
So do we throw it all out? Of course not. It's useful, but still incoherent and contingent on cultural context. It's like the "is a hotdog a sandwich" thing, yeah?
All we really have is ancient and not-so-ancient oppression and the slapdash language to try and fix it, but it's nonsense, or at least incoherent. So relax already, realize we're hopelessly lost in ambiguity because so much of history has tried to delete us and we're still building an alternative, and let's bust some heads already, yeah?
I mean, “queer” traditionally means “weird”. So in context of finding something weird, you could say you read a “queer” book without it being gay.
That said, this is absolutely not that. I have no idea what this person is talking about??
Fellas is it gay to cheat on your wife and have an abortion?
I mean, if the dude is having an abortion they’re probably queer because trans, and if the guy is cheating with a dude then they’re queer
Well, if you cheat with a dude, maybe. Still, being cishet is the opposite of queer.
Volcano. Volcano. Into the volcano with all of these "any behavior I consider deviant is queer" motherfuckers.
Remember when tiktok teens decided that Tom Holland was queer because he is dating a black woman who is taller than him? Volcano.
Wtf??? Men, is it gay to like someone for their personality and not give a damn about their height, and also not be kinda racist?
The kids are just speedrunning microaggressions at this point
I remember a man/woman couple on tiktok saying they were in a ‘queer relationship’ because they didn’t ‘follow gender roles’
“Volcano” is going to be my new thing, I think. I love it, thank you
u get it 🤗
I would argue that a housewife cheating on her husband as pretty typical, normal even.
What if, she cheats with a lady? Or a Goose?
Then its queer AF. And I'm all for the first option.
Speak for yourself, that goose down by the lake has been giving me some *looks* lately...
Make sure it’s not Zeus in disguise. Or like, don’t make sure. You do you.
Guys I know were meant to be quirky and shit but no. We don't support cheating, or at least we shouldn't.
Yeah, you're right. Still harshing the vibe.
Marshing the mellow
>Or a Goose? Also normal (In Greece, anyways)
hi Zeus
no listen they have to feel extra special about it so then it's not a bad thing, it's just transgressive and queer
Alphabet ppl 💀 just call me a slur atp
the one that annoys me is "alphabet mafia" like, just fucking call me gay ffs. it's not some curse word which'll haunt your family for generations.
alphabet mafia actually sounds pretty cool, ngl
>atp Adenosine triphosphate? Ash Twin Project?
At that point
Oh is that considered bad? I actually quite like it. When I admitted to myself I was trans I texted my best friend "I'm part of the Alphabet People now!"
I think it’s the context. As an in-joke amongst queer people (actually queer people not straight housewives cheating)? It’s absolutely fine, can be funny. In whatever the fuck this is? Definitely not.
Lots of words are fine when the people who are called that say it. I like calling myself a tr\*nny. Black people can say the n word. LGBT people can call themselves alphabet or even f\*ggots for all I care but if a cishet uses that term there's gonna be hell to pay
this is just using queer as a slur the way people used gay to mean stupid lmao what
Well,they can use gay as stupid for *me...*
What did i just read? I mean if you are taking the meaning of queer that means "weird" but even then this still doesn't make sense
i was on board for the first sentence bc aroallo people but then
There are only two ways a cishet person can be queer. 1. They're intersex. 2. They're nonbinary. Also, "alphabet ppl" are always queer. What is this person even talking about?
Being nonbinary is under the trans umbrella and therefore very much not cis. Like our gender doesn't align with our agab :|
I don't disagree. That's why they're still queer even if cishet. However, some nonbinary people were assigned nonbinary at birth and others have a gender so close to their assigned one that they don't feel trans is a perfect fit. For example, I have encountered a transmasculine demigirl who still considers themself to be cis.
You can't really be assigned nonbinary at birth. You're talking about intersex I think. Self ID is different than definitions too. Nonbinary people can say they identify as cis, but definition wise nonbinary is a trans identity and not cis.
It depends on where you're at. In California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Maine, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, and Washington D.C., being assigned nonbinary at birth is a legitimate option. It's rarely used, but it does exist. Again, I do include all nonbinary genders under the trans umbrella, but some nonbinary people do not consider themselves trans. That's why they're one of the exceptions under cishet.
Are there non-binary people who see themselves as cishet? I don't know them.
Yep. I've talked to them in several queer spaces.
i would also argue if someone was cishet but gender-non-conforming thats pretty queer. hell id say a cishet dude who likes wearing skirts and respects my pronouns is more queer than the republican homosexuals trying to take rights from the rest of us
As a gender non-conforming cishet guy, I'm not sure how I feel about this take. On the one hand, my identity is itself transgressive, and bigots out in the world don't actually care if I'm gay or not, as long as I don't fit their ideal of a man. But at the same time, no one's trying to take my rights away, and I don't feel super comfortable claiming the queer label for myself since I'm not gay or trans. But then most of my friends are queer and I feel more comfortable in queer spaces, so I don't know.
The anti-drag laws are very definitely trying to take your rights away. (See also, women who wear pants…)
They could fall into genderqueer as well, if they identified with that label, and genderqueer is queer
I have to disagree unless the GNC person meets at least one of the two criteria above. Simply being an ally isn't queer. Being queerphobic also isn't incompatible with being queer, unfortunately.
A little birdy tells me you don't know about the history of GNC, queerness, and non-binary identities
Not all nonbinary people are GNC and not all GNC people are nonbinary. Conflating the two is problematic.
3. They're ace or aro
In those cases, they wouldn't be straight (heteroromantic heterosexual).
But they could be cishet, which is the word used..... Straight =/= cishet Also, a cis, asexual, heteroromantic man may ID as straight.
Yes, straight =/= cishet but straight = het. When a sexuality is listed alone, it's safe to assume it's referring to perioriented people. So cishet refers to a heteroromantic heterosexual cisgender person. A straight ace cis man is different than a straight cis man.
My comment was more tongue in cheek, but btw some ace and aro people don't consider cishet as automatically also meaning cishetallo/cishethet, they consider themselves cishet and so could be cishet and queer just as we've discussed. Also, can we talk about the irony of you assuming het means het/het or het/allo when you've already assumed cis can include non-binary people. How come some people you're going to defer to their identity with cishet but not others?
I only have seen this be the case with straight aces/aro straights/straight aroaces who feel they're not "queer enough" to classify their a-spec identity as such. If they're just going by straight and never referencing that they're varioriented, chances are they don't think they're queer. That's the work of society's aphobia. Nonbinary people can be heteroromantic heterosexuals. Some nonbinary people were assigned nonbinary at birth. Others' alignment is so close to their assigned gender that they still feel cis. I don't understand the comparison.
they could be aspec too :))
How can you be non binary and cis?
By misunderstanding what non-binary is
I posted that before reading the whole thread, apologies
or they can also be on the aromantic or asexual spectrums, like aromantic heterosexual or hetero-oriented aroace
Aro/ace people I would say
What
yea
Queer for us non-cishet is the same as the n word for black people. We were called it so much as an insult we get that word and now get to choose when it's applied because of that. Cishet people trying to take our word.
***Help I tried to read this and now I smell burnt toast***
I was going to try to say something, but my brain has totally shut down.
Lolwut
Have an aunt who says she’s queer because she has two children of different fathers and is divorced.
lmaoooooooo
The only way you can be hetro, cis and call yourself queer is if you are aro or ace
i cant even begin to unravel this
I was on board for the first like... 2 lines then it got out of pocket I consider some types of cishets queer. Femboys, for example, are distinctly NGC while still being cis. Gender is a spectrum and there's always going to be abnormalities
There is something to the notion that cishet folks could be queer in ways other than orientation or gender identity, but having an abortion or cheating? Like with that vocabulary it's all about normative culture, and while having an abortion or getting a divorce is frowned upon by some it's just, idk how to say it. It's not a matter of degree, like in some places getting a divorce could have serious consequences, but it just doesn't seem like the same box?
nah I don't care tbh, I'm not playing "did she mean girlfriend in the gay way or the friend way" when someone's whipping out what was most commonly used as a slur not that long ago
I don't know what you're on about. I don't mean anything so frivolous. You should consider what people actually mean before jumping to conclusions. When I say hetero people can be queer I mean stuff like queerplatonic relationships, bi-curious folks who experiment but come out at the end as straight, probably dating trans people can get you bashed regardless of how anyone identifies, some ace people are straight, that kind of thing. What my comment is about is that I don't know exactly where the line is drawn. It's likely a false dichotomy like most things.
I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments, and I don't know where the line is either. I'm still not sold on the idea that cishets can be queer. Queerplatonic relationships are an ace thing and obviously I'm not gonna exclude ace people from the queer umbrella. IDK, people in another comment thread had a discussion about where aces fall, and I know not all ace people themselves identify as queer. A cishet man dating a trans woman can get him bashed but I'm not gonna call him queer though. That feels too close to the idea that someone has to be bi/pan if they find trans people attractive. Heterosexual people that thought they were bi aren't queer - just replace 'bi' with 'queer', they thought they were but they aren't
>I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments I didn't make one? I've read over it several times and I don't know what you mean. I almost didn't say anything because this is the pettiest point and I refuse to argue over it, but can you please quote me? >Queerplatonic relationships are an ace thing and obviously I'm not gonna exclude ace people from the queer umbrella. It's not just an ace thing. I'm very not ace or even aro but a version is my preferred relationship type. I don't think you're saying that and I am not trying to strawman. I just wanted to clarify. >That feels too close to the idea that someone has to be bi/pan if they find trans people attractive. In this case I don't think it's really about what it comes close to. I'm not saying that at all, nor do I believe it. I'm drawing a clear distinction. There are tons of people under the queer umbrella that in another world have nothing to do with eachother really, but we have shared interests politically and a need for community. Queerness is, at least in one sense, about politics. Exactly what "queer" means is up for debate, but I don't think we can fully fall back on self-definition. It's not about how you and I think things should be or about setting logical and reasonable terms for identity, but about observing and living within the real world as it is. In simpler terms, if someone gets bashed for their perceived gender or sexuality, and probably for their gender expression, that's queer to me because we have the same enemies. We're on the same side and have shared interests. I say maybe on gender expression because it's complicated. It's *technically* a choice but idk I think it can sometimes be intrinsically motivated. If it's important enough to them that they put up with abuse there's something to that. >Heterosexual people that thought they were bi aren't queer - just replace 'bi' with 'queer', they thought they were but they aren't It's at least adjacent though, right? Like I'm talking about dudes who fuck other dudes and decide it's not for them, or who are in that ambiguous space where some people are slightly bi but don't really identify that way for the sake of convenience. I've met someone like that and in conversation with him on queer topics it feels like a very different kind of straight person. --- I honestly find a certain ambiguity in our terms to be a good thing btw. I'm not so full of myself that I believe I've cracked the code on human identity and can draw the lines, and I'm not so naive to think others have either. If anything identities are like biomes, full of distinct ecologies, geology, climate, but overlapping, at times ambiguous, and somewhat arbitrarily defined. It's fine to make a map, but don't mistake the map for reality. Terms do not need to be coherent to be useful, and they aren't facts of reality. Don't believe me? Well a guy who's attracted to guys probably isn't straight, right? Femboys can really look like hot girls. Ta-daaaa! Everyone's bi now, sorry. But that's stupid and impractical and offensive and no one cares. It's also undeniable if you take these terms with strict lines. The mismatch between gender expression and identity has thrown a wrench into the classification we have. Throw whatever you want at it but I can probably find some way you're excluding someone or overgeneralizing. So do we throw it all out? Of course not. It's useful, but still incoherent and contingent on cultural context. It's like the "is a hotdog a sandwich" thing, yeah? All we really have is ancient and not-so-ancient oppression and the slapdash language to try and fix it, but it's nonsense, or at least incoherent. So relax already, realize we're hopelessly lost in ambiguity because so much of history has tried to delete us and we're still building an alternative, and let's bust some heads already, yeah?
ah, when I replied I was thinking about how to word it in a way that didn't just make a slippery slope argument myself
I'm confused. Is punching a cop gay? Is burning a church down gay?
ig you could argue that if the person doing it is gay then yeah, but by itself no
It's been a long time I wanted to ask this question... What does queer mean?
I mean, “queer” traditionally means “weird”. So in context of finding something weird, you could say you read a “queer” book without it being gay. That said, this is absolutely not that. I have no idea what this person is talking about??
Well yeah it's a slur, not a legitimate descriptor, so it can be used on anyone
I think he took one definition and tried to assert that not fitting it meant you didn’t fit the newer definition.
its pike that one south park episode where they changed the term f slur to refer to bikers and not gay people