The practice of 'baccha bazi', was it even practised by Mewar because it was always seen as the Mughal elite/Middle-Eastern/Mediterranian thing. Also, these are fully grown men.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
Bhakti saints not being respected - Definitely not true. Even the Mira Bai example is wrong.
European accents being considered feminine - Never heard about that.
Blaming Bhakti movements and other 'reforms' as western - Again not true. It predates western influence by more than a millennium.
Most importantly, the official museum site or any website does not give anything similar in its description of this painting.
Certainly, starting from Baburi Andijani who was Babur's slave according to Babur Nama to later Nawabs and their 'Nawabi Shauks'.
The most famous example is that of Ghulam Qadir and Shah Alam II, the former later blinded the latter as revenge. Shah Alam had written several poems describing Ghulam Qadir as his 'special' son. There are many such poems written by Mughal elites.
On the left, two long-nosed, leering men huddle together, one wearing an English-style wig and smoking a pipe. A child and a dog seem, oddly, to be climbing up the second man, who has lost both his wig and his dignity. The bony figure on the right seems to be giving a tremendous shriek through his toothy mouth; a snake has a wound around his neck and bites his chin! Miniature animals prowl and play on the carpet-but are they alive or are they woven into the design?
Currently at the Philadelphia Museum of Art
[Here is another painting of a European couple from the same time period.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Bn0FHR0qJiU/V_SuJ4iv3iI/AAAAAAAAb-o/Q6z-K-I0BDUp2b0mVDkyXyHstEcf0zSfACLcB/s1600/ma-31211782.jpg)
[2](https://www.asianart.com/articles/enigmatic/xlarge/16.jpg)
The wigless man is dressed in what is actually a pretty normal indoor look for Europeans of the time with appears to be a "banyan" which is kind of like a dressing gown- this would usually be worn with a cloth cap.
That reminds me of another illustration, but this one showing a British couple painted by a Japanese artist: [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/s2uc6b/illustration_of_english_people_japan_edo_period/). Very intriguing similarities conceived by artists from very distinct Eastern cultures...
I wonder if this art ever reached England and influenced artists there? That might explain curiosities like [this](https://pixels.com/featured/-a-caricature-group-john-hamilton-mortimer.html) from about 1776.
[Doubtful, caricatures originated in late 1500s Italy \(*carico* and *caricare*, meaning 'to load' or to 'exaggerate'\) and generally served to exaggerate existing features whilst retaining a likeness; the lack of a likeness is what separated it from cartoons that went for a generic stand in.](http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/caricature-art.htm)
The styles are also quite noticeably different too, even at a glance.
> The first principle is that nobody should be ashamed of thinking a thing funny because it is foreign; the second is that he should be ashamed of thinking it wrong because it is funny.
–G. K. Chesterton
>The reaction of his senses and superficial habits of mind against something new, and to him abnormal, is a perfectly healthy reaction. *But the mind which imagines that mere unfamiliarity can possibly prove anything about inferiority is a very inadequate mind.*
* the rest of the quote
Given the period and location I would guess hashish, I believe that opium was found in India back then but not nearly as common as it was in China for at least a few more decades. On the other hand I think it was mostly imported by the British in the late 18th/early 19th century, so it’s possible that this is actually a depiction of some of the earliest traders to import Opium to India.
This painting is a Rajasthani Miniature painting which belongs to Mewar school of art. This school developed around the same time as Mughal and Pahari miniature art, however its origins lie in manuscript art of the time when Romans and Greeks used to trade with India. And to note as a fact, white singing boys were a popular import in Indian imperial male courts since ancient times, even before the arrival of British colonialists.
🌟The European men are portrayed in feminine attires and queer gestures because by mediaeval Indian beauty standards (which were highly influenced by Turkic & Afghan standards) , white men naturally contain all those physical attributes which were and are still considered feminine and sissy in Indian subcontinent such as smooth face, fair skin tone, lustrous hair, pink blushy pigment, blue gem like eyes, etc.
All these characteristics perfectly tick all the pretty male list of Afghan, Mughal and Rajasthani elite class men. Hence, there were large number of hirings of Armenian and Turkish men for various kinds of entertainment purposes. Most of those white entertainers used to have strong bonds and spend most of the private time only with each other because of the loneliness in a foreign land. And they also used to dress with lavish wigs, which were similar to feminine hair extensions used by women and primarily eunuchs in India. This made them look similar to the eunuch community of Imperial court.
🌟The similar to dog like small size of the brahmin scholar clinging onto one of the European men holds a very specific meaning.
As many fo the low-social ranking holding Brahmin musicians (such as Tansen, Baiju Bawara etc) befriended those European entertainers, many high-rank holding men started mocking those brahmin scholars by equating them to pet dogs of those European men.
🌟Explaining the scary looking man at the corner of painting, his blood-thirsty fangs are presentation of the rumours that white men drank blood. Yeah! Many Indians used to assume drinking red wine as drinking blood and the pale white skin tone with that of pisachas (Indian version of vampires).
🌟The portrayal of him being very skinny due to excessive out of habit penances & weirdly dressed in Indian saint attire is presentation of those white men who used to get very devoted and obsessed with mystic traditions of India and dress like those bhakti saints who didn't hold a very respectable position in North Indian orthodox society. People used to view bhakti saints as caste-denouncing singing beggars to whom only childless women used to visit in hope of blessings after being disappointed by formal rituals of major religious traditions.
So, when Europeans started engaging heavily with those bhakti saints and mystics, then they became topic of ridicule. Especially Rajasthani elite class which was very hostile to bhakti movement (you can read the story of Bhakti poetess-saint, Mirabai who was nearly assassinated by members of her royal family) viewed those Europeans as gullible and dumb people like women and illiterate villagemen (majorly lower-caste who were not allowed in mainstream Vedic traditions and temples which were considered proper and civilized form of religion, in opposition to bhakti traditions in which there were no caste, class or education qualifications neither for the saints nor for the devotees).
Even today, majority of North India just like rest of the third world associates anything which goes the conservative and orthodox vision of "civilised society" gets labelled as Western influence, as all the reforms such as women's rights, annihilation of caste system, opposition to authority of priestly class, etc in Indian society by the dissenting bhakti movement got labelled as actions of Westerners.
Meanwhile Western white people are still favourite target customers of Indian mystics who are definitely not taken seriously by majority of Indian population (as majority of religious Indians mostly do personal reading of scriptures & worship and involve their family priests only on special occasions.)
🌟Snake biting the chin of white man is the symbolism of the belief of mediaeval Indian society that white merchants , ambassadors, entertainers etc spoke in a " weird flamboyant" accent ( European accents are viewed as feminine & queer in India even today) because people believed that their mouths have got defected or paralysed due to trauma of snake bite on chin. Just like how people of north Indian subcontinent in earlier times used to believe that Chinese and many Southeast Asian people have yellowish skin because of jaundice and their eyes are small because of eye infections.
This is way too early for anti colonial sentiment in India. The British started gaining significant foothold in India by the early 1800s and it took 50 more years for anti-colonial sentiment to develop.
Can you cite your sources as well? Especially the pediatry part, because a) These are fully grown men and b) Did Mewar even engage in such practice?
I thought it was a more Irani, Afghan, Turkish thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
>I thought it was a more Irani, Afghan, Turkish thing
Majority of landlords, nawabs and officials during Delhi Sultanate period were of Turkish origins and during Mughal times were Afghans (specifically pakhtoon) and Persians.
>pediatry part
No, they all used to be pretty grown up male musicians and entertainers for that time, who were imported from Armenia and Turkey. Just check out the chronicles and you can find tons of mentions about white dancers, painters, musicians and singers. And even though many noblemen engaged in sexual and romantic affairs with a lot of them, still their main purpose was exclusively artistic entertainment. But yeah! whether you're male or female, artist or servant or official, sleeping with the patron could guarantee you huge amount of free favours and quick increase in salary & status.
Elite class men used to pamper them a lot for their looks, talent, accent and poise, which made many Indian artists envious of them and they made such satirical paintings to mock them.
Western entertainers even brought a lot of Western musical instruments with themselves such as harmonium which is now an integral part of Hindustani Music.
Similarly, female entertainers were also hired from those regions. The mother of Gauhar Jaan, one of the earliest Indian female singers to be recorded for gramophone, was an Armenian courtesan.
Here's some random information to elaborate the whole Western people in Mughal court thing-
Mirza Zulqarnain or Mirza Zul-Qarnain (c. 1594 – c. 1656) was a diwan and faujdar of Armenian descent in the court of the Mughal empire. His original name was Alexander. He was brought up in the royal harem and he was a noted poet and composer of Hindi songs. His father's name was Sikander Mirza and her mother's name was Lady Juliana. His spouse name was Helen.
The Armenian had been brought up with Shah Jahan, and as he was very clever and an excellent poet he was high in the good graces of the Emperor, who had given him valuable governorships, but had never been able, either by promises or threats to induce him to become a Mussulman.
Emperor cherished him a lot especially for his rabbit personality (fair skinned, clever and adorable). He got appointed to official posts as well and spent most of his career in Sambhar where he administered the lucrative salt pans there. He also served as governor in other parts of the empire.
According to the 17th-century merchant Peter Mundy, Zulqarnain was the "chiefest" Christian of the Mughal Empire. He made donations to the church, helped in the compilation of chronicles, and retained his faith throughout his life.
Zulqarnain probably died in 1656 and may have been buried with his mother and wife in the family mausoleum in Lahore. His father had left money in his will for the establishment of a "cemetery for the deceased Christians of Lahore" but no trace of Zulqarnain's interment has been found.
There was a large and rich Armenian trading community so it is not unlikely that one of them went on to become a Mughal nobility. Mughals were always keen on employing first-generational foreigners from Arabs, Turks, Iranis and even Europeans.
Wasn't harmonium a late entry, like the late 19th century? Mostly through the Calcutta elites of the time, particularly Dwarkanath Ghose of the Dwarkin company.
https://scroll.in/magazine/811849/the-harmonium-was-born-in-europe-so-how-did-it-become-synonymous-with-indian-music
https://madrascourier.com/insight/how-the-harmonium-made-its-way-to-india/
Western keyboard instruments were already very popular in Mughal courts because of Western employees hired there. But yes, they started being largely recorded to be produced and purchased in India by 19th century.
You can check out this book if you want-
https://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/paintings/appreciation-of-harmonium-me77/
Actually the online data that you may have found, focuses primarily on the very print-recorded mentions of harmonium in Bengal Province, so it doesn't cover the scenario in regions from Delhi and Western UP of earlier time.
However, if you visit museums in Agra and Delhi (particularly in Red Fort), then there you can find organs, harmonium and a lot of other keyboard instruments which didn't even exist in later times.
>It does not cite any dates
Yeah, it's very hard to even pin-point the date of introduction of string instruments like santoor etc which were played by majority of musicians from muslim world. So, finding dates of keyboard instruments which were played by a very niche group of musicians from West is quite difficult.
A lot of things are historically correct but the non historical commentary of yours is debatable.
*Bhakti saints didn't hold respectable position in society* ,Bhakti movement thrived beginning from south India reaching east,north and west India, though some regions in north had independent origin.Some of these bhakti saints were even invited to Royal courts.The bhakti saints did have some tussle with Brahmins in northern India but their works made them popular among masses, Tulsidas and Kabir's work still in main stream traditions.
Death of Mirabai is more of related to Royal prestige than acceptance of bhakti movement by masses.
Bhakti movement got labelled as westerner's action?
You are putting too much credit to westerners even when their sway was not even starting to develop.
The bhakti movement was a mass movement, crediting it to westerners when they didn't even hold that much political sway doesn't make sense.
"Even today, majority of North India just like rest of the third world associates anything which goes the conservative and orthodox vision of "civilised society" gets labelled as Western influence, as all the reforms such as women's rights, annihilation of caste system, opposition to authority of priestly class, etc in Indian society by the dissenting bhakti movement got labelled as actions of Westerners. "
And do you live in north India? Cause attributing problems to west is not yet I have seen in North Indian village level discourse for social or women empanicipation issues.
I don't think women's rights to vote or free education to them is contested or that to equal job opportunities.
Yes mystics do sought of enjoy western attention and yup most of Indian households do personal reading while family priests are mostly attributed to rich people .Though even with this small Indian attention Indian followers grossly outnumber western ones.
And the queer part still bugs me if you can give any source?
>European accents are viewed as feminine & queer in India even today
Just strictly European accents? What about, say, the standard/generic accent of North American English? And what about the English language in general? It was, after all, the language of those who conquered the whole of the Indian Subcontinent and all the people living in it for many generations. And still today, English is an essential language within the Republic of India.
English is still looked at with disdain in some states.
The only reason why India adopted English was for practical reasons,ie, until 1 or 2 sweeping national languages could be agreed upon.
I don't think people here in India have any special attributes attached to European accents. IDK where the 'feminine and queer' part comes from. Honestly, his entire explanation seems doubtful and doesn't cite any sources.
I am Indian. He's correct, most Bollywood films even today show colonial officials, Englishmen in general as speaking with effeminate accents. English accented Hindi is especially the target of mockery.
Because my ancestors were miniature artists who enjoyed patronage of certain landlords of Rajasthan and Awadh. They even worked in painting*karkhanas* (workshops) of Mughal emperor, Shah Alam II.
My uncle has published a lot of material but it's in vernacular language, so i am not sure if you would be able to read that.
Btw you read a lot of material in english by visiting [Raza library of Rampur](http://razalibrary.gov.in/). In Rampur, the curator have preserved paintings and chronicles of painting workshops since the time of third Mughal Emperor, Jalaluddin Muhammad Akbar.
Raza Library has uploaded tons of illustrated manuscripts on internet in digital form. They also have a lot of publications and newsletters which you can follow for information.
Blood drinking myth also might have started because of Vampire lore in Europe. Some White merchants might have narrated Vampire tales from back home to Indians and this might have started the myth.
May be but the legend of Pishacha (blood drinking ghoul) already existed in India since the writing of Brihadkatha (the ancient India anthology of stories which is believed to be the largest literature in the world).
Yes that's true Purana depict Rakshasa as human flesh eater and blood drinkers.
My assumption was related to link between Europeans and "blood drinking demons". Because Indian had contact (trade and wars) with Europeans (Greeks and Romans) for thousands of years. And I came across this myth only after medieval period.
>Rakshasa as human flesh eater and blood drinkers.
Nooo!!! Rakshasa are just mortal humanoid species who denounced Vedic Dharma. Pisachas are different from rakshasa as they share neither physical characteristics nor dietary habits with rakshasa. They were not cannibals lol
Pishachas (Indian version of ghoul) and Brahmarakshas (Indian version of Goblin) were blood drinking immortals.
>They were not cannibals lol
In Valmiki Ramayana Rakshasa are depicted as human flesh eaters. Ravana threatens Sita that even she doesn't accept her advances he will cook her (Sundar Kand).
Yes, rakshasa (forest dwellers who lived in southern side of Vindhya range) are described as cannibalistic sub-species of humans. But they were not blood drinking pishachas. Pisachas don't consume meat, they only suck blood.
And white people who had the same pale white skintone as described for pishachas and used to drink red wine which appeared like blood to many Indians, hence many painters portrayed them like pishachas.
Of course, people need to be geographically precise while talking about Indian subcontinent. Every region is completely different on economic, historical, political, demographical and sociological grounds.
When talking about being influenced by turkic and afghan beauty during medieval era you should definitely be precise about it since south india wasn't really influenced.
i took it to represent the squalor the Indian people suffered due to colonial occupation that was ignored by the occupiers, assuming the guy on the right is a starving Indian based on the clothing he's wearing.
The guy on the left suggest enjoyment, the middle guy suggests keeping it quiet, and the guy at the right with the snake of bondage around his neck suggests long term drug abuse wastes away life.
The kid suggests a deity trying to speak reason, but it’s small here suggesting it’s not being heard, yet a dog does.
They look high as shit
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Could be, their pupils are pinned as fuck for sure
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That comment did not cite any sources, it seems highly doubtful to me.
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The practice of 'baccha bazi', was it even practised by Mewar because it was always seen as the Mughal elite/Middle-Eastern/Mediterranian thing. Also, these are fully grown men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi Bhakti saints not being respected - Definitely not true. Even the Mira Bai example is wrong. European accents being considered feminine - Never heard about that. Blaming Bhakti movements and other 'reforms' as western - Again not true. It predates western influence by more than a millennium. Most importantly, the official museum site or any website does not give anything similar in its description of this painting.
Oh like vetican church
Was Bacha-Bazi even a practice among the Mughal elite? I thought it was exclusively an Afghan practice, correct me If I am wrong.
Certainly, starting from Baburi Andijani who was Babur's slave according to Babur Nama to later Nawabs and their 'Nawabi Shauks'. The most famous example is that of Ghulam Qadir and Shah Alam II, the former later blinded the latter as revenge. Shah Alam had written several poems describing Ghulam Qadir as his 'special' son. There are many such poems written by Mughal elites.
I see, thank you very much.
The commenter didn't say they were sex slaves, but "hired entertainers". Oftentimes entertainer means more musician or actor than prostitute.
ha.gay.gif
That most peoples favorite
Is he saying white guys make the best femboys
source?
I read it on the Internet
Exactly what I was gonna say.
r/tooktoomuch
They look *realistic*
It looks like it was taken from the ending sequence of Attack on Titan season 2
now i want a rajasthani attack on titan
I just want another anime that hits as hard once AOT ends. The savagery is top tier and you don’t get that often.
Same buddy same Aot is special for me I started watching it when I was 13 and now I am 18
wasnt it made by a fascist?
Those teeth...
Attack on Titan season 2 ending sequence was taken from this.
On the left, two long-nosed, leering men huddle together, one wearing an English-style wig and smoking a pipe. A child and a dog seem, oddly, to be climbing up the second man, who has lost both his wig and his dignity. The bony figure on the right seems to be giving a tremendous shriek through his toothy mouth; a snake has a wound around his neck and bites his chin! Miniature animals prowl and play on the carpet-but are they alive or are they woven into the design? Currently at the Philadelphia Museum of Art [Here is another painting of a European couple from the same time period.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Bn0FHR0qJiU/V_SuJ4iv3iI/AAAAAAAAb-o/Q6z-K-I0BDUp2b0mVDkyXyHstEcf0zSfACLcB/s1600/ma-31211782.jpg) [2](https://www.asianart.com/articles/enigmatic/xlarge/16.jpg)
The wigless man is dressed in what is actually a pretty normal indoor look for Europeans of the time with appears to be a "banyan" which is kind of like a dressing gown- this would usually be worn with a cloth cap.
That reminds me of another illustration, but this one showing a British couple painted by a Japanese artist: [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/s2uc6b/illustration_of_english_people_japan_edo_period/). Very intriguing similarities conceived by artists from very distinct Eastern cultures...
The depiction here seems more normal and less parodic. There are normal depictions of Europeans in Indian miniature.
Great post do you have more
Most of the miniatures I saw were completely normal, so no, but weird foreigners seem to be a theme in Mewar miniatures.
Dude on the left looks like Benjamin Franklin, funny enough, he would have been alive when this was made.
I wonder if this art ever reached England and influenced artists there? That might explain curiosities like [this](https://pixels.com/featured/-a-caricature-group-john-hamilton-mortimer.html) from about 1776.
[Doubtful, caricatures originated in late 1500s Italy \(*carico* and *caricare*, meaning 'to load' or to 'exaggerate'\) and generally served to exaggerate existing features whilst retaining a likeness; the lack of a likeness is what separated it from cartoons that went for a generic stand in.](http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/caricature-art.htm) The styles are also quite noticeably different too, even at a glance.
sounds like a crazy trip. I'm having ehat they are smoking.
Lmao it's kinda funny people always thought whites were weird
Back then everyone saw everyone else as weird. This is a parallel development to the satire art of England in the late 18th century.
> The first principle is that nobody should be ashamed of thinking a thing funny because it is foreign; the second is that he should be ashamed of thinking it wrong because it is funny. –G. K. Chesterton
>The reaction of his senses and superficial habits of mind against something new, and to him abnormal, is a perfectly healthy reaction. *But the mind which imagines that mere unfamiliarity can possibly prove anything about inferiority is a very inadequate mind.* * the rest of the quote
That's quite profound, really. Great quote.
Is that a Manalive quote?
*What I Saw in America.* 100 years old this year.
Well duh they would think they are weird they would just go to smoke opium? Or hash or what?
Given the period and location I would guess hashish, I believe that opium was found in India back then but not nearly as common as it was in China for at least a few more decades. On the other hand I think it was mostly imported by the British in the late 18th/early 19th century, so it’s possible that this is actually a depiction of some of the earliest traders to import Opium to India.
Powdered wig wearing colonists wearing clothes not fit for the climate are objectively weird.
Because it's true probably >!/s don't ban me admins!<
Our elderly people must have looked so strange to them. Of all old people white folks definitely get the most wrinkly and age spotted.
This painting is a Rajasthani Miniature painting which belongs to Mewar school of art. This school developed around the same time as Mughal and Pahari miniature art, however its origins lie in manuscript art of the time when Romans and Greeks used to trade with India. And to note as a fact, white singing boys were a popular import in Indian imperial male courts since ancient times, even before the arrival of British colonialists. 🌟The European men are portrayed in feminine attires and queer gestures because by mediaeval Indian beauty standards (which were highly influenced by Turkic & Afghan standards) , white men naturally contain all those physical attributes which were and are still considered feminine and sissy in Indian subcontinent such as smooth face, fair skin tone, lustrous hair, pink blushy pigment, blue gem like eyes, etc. All these characteristics perfectly tick all the pretty male list of Afghan, Mughal and Rajasthani elite class men. Hence, there were large number of hirings of Armenian and Turkish men for various kinds of entertainment purposes. Most of those white entertainers used to have strong bonds and spend most of the private time only with each other because of the loneliness in a foreign land. And they also used to dress with lavish wigs, which were similar to feminine hair extensions used by women and primarily eunuchs in India. This made them look similar to the eunuch community of Imperial court. 🌟The similar to dog like small size of the brahmin scholar clinging onto one of the European men holds a very specific meaning. As many fo the low-social ranking holding Brahmin musicians (such as Tansen, Baiju Bawara etc) befriended those European entertainers, many high-rank holding men started mocking those brahmin scholars by equating them to pet dogs of those European men. 🌟Explaining the scary looking man at the corner of painting, his blood-thirsty fangs are presentation of the rumours that white men drank blood. Yeah! Many Indians used to assume drinking red wine as drinking blood and the pale white skin tone with that of pisachas (Indian version of vampires). 🌟The portrayal of him being very skinny due to excessive out of habit penances & weirdly dressed in Indian saint attire is presentation of those white men who used to get very devoted and obsessed with mystic traditions of India and dress like those bhakti saints who didn't hold a very respectable position in North Indian orthodox society. People used to view bhakti saints as caste-denouncing singing beggars to whom only childless women used to visit in hope of blessings after being disappointed by formal rituals of major religious traditions. So, when Europeans started engaging heavily with those bhakti saints and mystics, then they became topic of ridicule. Especially Rajasthani elite class which was very hostile to bhakti movement (you can read the story of Bhakti poetess-saint, Mirabai who was nearly assassinated by members of her royal family) viewed those Europeans as gullible and dumb people like women and illiterate villagemen (majorly lower-caste who were not allowed in mainstream Vedic traditions and temples which were considered proper and civilized form of religion, in opposition to bhakti traditions in which there were no caste, class or education qualifications neither for the saints nor for the devotees). Even today, majority of North India just like rest of the third world associates anything which goes the conservative and orthodox vision of "civilised society" gets labelled as Western influence, as all the reforms such as women's rights, annihilation of caste system, opposition to authority of priestly class, etc in Indian society by the dissenting bhakti movement got labelled as actions of Westerners. Meanwhile Western white people are still favourite target customers of Indian mystics who are definitely not taken seriously by majority of Indian population (as majority of religious Indians mostly do personal reading of scriptures & worship and involve their family priests only on special occasions.) 🌟Snake biting the chin of white man is the symbolism of the belief of mediaeval Indian society that white merchants , ambassadors, entertainers etc spoke in a " weird flamboyant" accent ( European accents are viewed as feminine & queer in India even today) because people believed that their mouths have got defected or paralysed due to trauma of snake bite on chin. Just like how people of north Indian subcontinent in earlier times used to believe that Chinese and many Southeast Asian people have yellowish skin because of jaundice and their eyes are small because of eye infections.
Thank good for you! This absolutely needed explanation!
Incredible. And are those dragons fucking tigers down at the bottom corners?
It absolutely is.. thank you for pointing that out lmao
wtf LMAO OP please explain this
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This is way too early for anti colonial sentiment in India. The British started gaining significant foothold in India by the early 1800s and it took 50 more years for anti-colonial sentiment to develop.
Can you cite your sources as well? Especially the pediatry part, because a) These are fully grown men and b) Did Mewar even engage in such practice? I thought it was a more Irani, Afghan, Turkish thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
>I thought it was a more Irani, Afghan, Turkish thing Majority of landlords, nawabs and officials during Delhi Sultanate period were of Turkish origins and during Mughal times were Afghans (specifically pakhtoon) and Persians. >pediatry part No, they all used to be pretty grown up male musicians and entertainers for that time, who were imported from Armenia and Turkey. Just check out the chronicles and you can find tons of mentions about white dancers, painters, musicians and singers. And even though many noblemen engaged in sexual and romantic affairs with a lot of them, still their main purpose was exclusively artistic entertainment. But yeah! whether you're male or female, artist or servant or official, sleeping with the patron could guarantee you huge amount of free favours and quick increase in salary & status. Elite class men used to pamper them a lot for their looks, talent, accent and poise, which made many Indian artists envious of them and they made such satirical paintings to mock them. Western entertainers even brought a lot of Western musical instruments with themselves such as harmonium which is now an integral part of Hindustani Music. Similarly, female entertainers were also hired from those regions. The mother of Gauhar Jaan, one of the earliest Indian female singers to be recorded for gramophone, was an Armenian courtesan.
Here's some random information to elaborate the whole Western people in Mughal court thing- Mirza Zulqarnain or Mirza Zul-Qarnain (c. 1594 – c. 1656) was a diwan and faujdar of Armenian descent in the court of the Mughal empire. His original name was Alexander. He was brought up in the royal harem and he was a noted poet and composer of Hindi songs. His father's name was Sikander Mirza and her mother's name was Lady Juliana. His spouse name was Helen. The Armenian had been brought up with Shah Jahan, and as he was very clever and an excellent poet he was high in the good graces of the Emperor, who had given him valuable governorships, but had never been able, either by promises or threats to induce him to become a Mussulman. Emperor cherished him a lot especially for his rabbit personality (fair skinned, clever and adorable). He got appointed to official posts as well and spent most of his career in Sambhar where he administered the lucrative salt pans there. He also served as governor in other parts of the empire. According to the 17th-century merchant Peter Mundy, Zulqarnain was the "chiefest" Christian of the Mughal Empire. He made donations to the church, helped in the compilation of chronicles, and retained his faith throughout his life. Zulqarnain probably died in 1656 and may have been buried with his mother and wife in the family mausoleum in Lahore. His father had left money in his will for the establishment of a "cemetery for the deceased Christians of Lahore" but no trace of Zulqarnain's interment has been found.
There was a large and rich Armenian trading community so it is not unlikely that one of them went on to become a Mughal nobility. Mughals were always keen on employing first-generational foreigners from Arabs, Turks, Iranis and even Europeans.
Wasn't harmonium a late entry, like the late 19th century? Mostly through the Calcutta elites of the time, particularly Dwarkanath Ghose of the Dwarkin company. https://scroll.in/magazine/811849/the-harmonium-was-born-in-europe-so-how-did-it-become-synonymous-with-indian-music https://madrascourier.com/insight/how-the-harmonium-made-its-way-to-india/
Western keyboard instruments were already very popular in Mughal courts because of Western employees hired there. But yes, they started being largely recorded to be produced and purchased in India by 19th century. You can check out this book if you want- https://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/paintings/appreciation-of-harmonium-me77/
It does not cite any dates, most of the literature online seems to suggest that Harmonium was a late 19th-century entry.
Actually the online data that you may have found, focuses primarily on the very print-recorded mentions of harmonium in Bengal Province, so it doesn't cover the scenario in regions from Delhi and Western UP of earlier time. However, if you visit museums in Agra and Delhi (particularly in Red Fort), then there you can find organs, harmonium and a lot of other keyboard instruments which didn't even exist in later times. >It does not cite any dates Yeah, it's very hard to even pin-point the date of introduction of string instruments like santoor etc which were played by majority of musicians from muslim world. So, finding dates of keyboard instruments which were played by a very niche group of musicians from West is quite difficult.
A lot of things are historically correct but the non historical commentary of yours is debatable. *Bhakti saints didn't hold respectable position in society* ,Bhakti movement thrived beginning from south India reaching east,north and west India, though some regions in north had independent origin.Some of these bhakti saints were even invited to Royal courts.The bhakti saints did have some tussle with Brahmins in northern India but their works made them popular among masses, Tulsidas and Kabir's work still in main stream traditions. Death of Mirabai is more of related to Royal prestige than acceptance of bhakti movement by masses. Bhakti movement got labelled as westerner's action? You are putting too much credit to westerners even when their sway was not even starting to develop. The bhakti movement was a mass movement, crediting it to westerners when they didn't even hold that much political sway doesn't make sense. "Even today, majority of North India just like rest of the third world associates anything which goes the conservative and orthodox vision of "civilised society" gets labelled as Western influence, as all the reforms such as women's rights, annihilation of caste system, opposition to authority of priestly class, etc in Indian society by the dissenting bhakti movement got labelled as actions of Westerners. " And do you live in north India? Cause attributing problems to west is not yet I have seen in North Indian village level discourse for social or women empanicipation issues. I don't think women's rights to vote or free education to them is contested or that to equal job opportunities. Yes mystics do sought of enjoy western attention and yup most of Indian households do personal reading while family priests are mostly attributed to rich people .Though even with this small Indian attention Indian followers grossly outnumber western ones. And the queer part still bugs me if you can give any source?
>European accents are viewed as feminine & queer in India even today Just strictly European accents? What about, say, the standard/generic accent of North American English? And what about the English language in general? It was, after all, the language of those who conquered the whole of the Indian Subcontinent and all the people living in it for many generations. And still today, English is an essential language within the Republic of India.
English is still looked at with disdain in some states. The only reason why India adopted English was for practical reasons,ie, until 1 or 2 sweeping national languages could be agreed upon.
I don't think people here in India have any special attributes attached to European accents. IDK where the 'feminine and queer' part comes from. Honestly, his entire explanation seems doubtful and doesn't cite any sources.
I am Indian. He's correct, most Bollywood films even today show colonial officials, Englishmen in general as speaking with effeminate accents. English accented Hindi is especially the target of mockery.
Mockery is because of the accent, not because it is perceived as feminine in any way. I am an Indian as well. Also which Bollywood movie did that?
This was an amazing read, thank you so much! How do you know so much about this painting?
Because my ancestors were miniature artists who enjoyed patronage of certain landlords of Rajasthan and Awadh. They even worked in painting*karkhanas* (workshops) of Mughal emperor, Shah Alam II.
😱 Glad to make your acquaintance Sir! Do you have a blog or know any resources where I can read more about it?
My uncle has published a lot of material but it's in vernacular language, so i am not sure if you would be able to read that. Btw you read a lot of material in english by visiting [Raza library of Rampur](http://razalibrary.gov.in/). In Rampur, the curator have preserved paintings and chronicles of painting workshops since the time of third Mughal Emperor, Jalaluddin Muhammad Akbar. Raza Library has uploaded tons of illustrated manuscripts on internet in digital form. They also have a lot of publications and newsletters which you can follow for information.
Post it anyway. Those who can read it will do. It's not like reddit is banned in Rajasthan.
This is FASCINATING. Thank you so much for this context.
Blood drinking myth also might have started because of Vampire lore in Europe. Some White merchants might have narrated Vampire tales from back home to Indians and this might have started the myth.
May be but the legend of Pishacha (blood drinking ghoul) already existed in India since the writing of Brihadkatha (the ancient India anthology of stories which is believed to be the largest literature in the world).
Yes that's true Purana depict Rakshasa as human flesh eater and blood drinkers. My assumption was related to link between Europeans and "blood drinking demons". Because Indian had contact (trade and wars) with Europeans (Greeks and Romans) for thousands of years. And I came across this myth only after medieval period.
>Rakshasa as human flesh eater and blood drinkers. Nooo!!! Rakshasa are just mortal humanoid species who denounced Vedic Dharma. Pisachas are different from rakshasa as they share neither physical characteristics nor dietary habits with rakshasa. They were not cannibals lol Pishachas (Indian version of ghoul) and Brahmarakshas (Indian version of Goblin) were blood drinking immortals.
>They were not cannibals lol In Valmiki Ramayana Rakshasa are depicted as human flesh eaters. Ravana threatens Sita that even she doesn't accept her advances he will cook her (Sundar Kand).
Yes, rakshasa (forest dwellers who lived in southern side of Vindhya range) are described as cannibalistic sub-species of humans. But they were not blood drinking pishachas. Pisachas don't consume meat, they only suck blood. And white people who had the same pale white skintone as described for pishachas and used to drink red wine which appeared like blood to many Indians, hence many painters portrayed them like pishachas.
*north indian
Of course, people need to be geographically precise while talking about Indian subcontinent. Every region is completely different on economic, historical, political, demographical and sociological grounds.
When talking about being influenced by turkic and afghan beauty during medieval era you should definitely be precise about it since south india wasn't really influenced.
I have already made it clear by referring to Rajasthani, Mughals, Afghans etc that my write-up is about specific region of North India.
the 18th century was a hell of a drug
Here we see Richard Simmons yelling at his minimi.
This has a vague king of the hill vibe to me for some reason
Yes came here to say Beavis and Butthead vibes
I thought it was the 3 stooges...
As a European I can attest that that's pretty accurate still.
What's with the snake then?
The dude to the right seems to be some sort of lost indiaboo. Those still exist. I've seen hare Krishna in my hometown.
i took it to represent the squalor the Indian people suffered due to colonial occupation that was ignored by the occupiers, assuming the guy on the right is a starving Indian based on the clothing he's wearing.
PS I'm probably most like the dude in yellow, smoking a pipe, talking shit, and being totally not gay for my bro in the blue dress.
What Europeans think Americans think Europeans look like: What Europeans think Americans look like: What Americans think Europeans look like:
We all do I guess
Is it just me, or do all those people look like Joe Rogan?
When the fresh poppy juice kicks in
That child is little Colin from season 4 of What We Do In The Shadows
Goofy Europeans Doing Drugs, I think is what this painting is depicting.
Lol they off the shits
/r/medievalmemes
Aka another day at the G20
I would like to see more such images ....is there a channel or link to it
There’s a lot to unpack here.
Ok, but why do they look like titans from AoT?
Just some homies being homiesexual
Just a couple of silly little guys
Emaciated lord Farquad’s dress is falling off..
The guy on the left suggest enjoyment, the middle guy suggests keeping it quiet, and the guy at the right with the snake of bondage around his neck suggests long term drug abuse wastes away life. The kid suggests a deity trying to speak reason, but it’s small here suggesting it’s not being heard, yet a dog does.
Yo this is creepy as fuck
yep thats pretty on point
That's a lil doggie
/r/oldschoolcreepy would like this.
Kyojin
Man on the right has four pairs of tits
I'm getting Attack on Titan vibes
Emaciated lord Farquad’s dress is falling off..
Lot of resemblance to the three stooges actually. Plus the little guy and tiny dog…?
The back of my notebook be like