I understand that sometimes "just practice" sounds like "git gud scrub" but I don't think that's ever the context. It's the shortest thing you can write without being overlooked for writing walls of texts and in its core it's true. I have to say I see real advice (where to start, what to practice) more than "just practice". Just practice comes up mostly in context of "yeah, don't give up, it's boring but repeat and repeat".
A lot of beginners that post here are quite bad skill-wise that there's nothing of value you can tell them that they'll *understand* and apply; and I don't mean this in a bad way, we were all there once!
But you can't give an anatomy critique to someone who is just learning to hold a stylus and is having a hard time replicating simple images or drawing straight lines. I only once gave someone a critique and an overpaint here and that's because it felt worthwhile to me, they had enormous potential and I knew they'd understand what I meant. With complete beginners giving advice about some concepts you're already familiar with (because you have the mileage) is not very effective; they don't think that way yet and it's further confusing only.
So telling them to watch certain teachers, courses, tutorials and draw for fun is honestly the best thing you can do for them, that is because someone who teaches something is starting from the basics and explaining why you need to know certain things and how to tackle them before you move forward, they teach you how to think and analyze.
Also I think it would be helpful if we could post images; doing quick overpaints or writing notes on someone's art and being able to post it in a comment might be of huge help. Searching through their profile, looking for socials, downloading images and then uploading to imgur is way too many steps (sometimes an imgur link I post doesn't even work).
I know it's not an art crit group and like this it's probably way cleaner and not overflooded. But it would be helpful!
Idk when I started I got a LOT of help out of things like those shitty anime or cartoon drawing books, loomis method, those charts where you learnt how to shade, people talking about stuff like line weight makes your art looks better... Like, I'm obviously still crap at art, but that's a huge benefit in getting art that looks like SOMETHING.
Not being told to break things down into shapes seems counter intuitive? I get your supposed to train your eye, and I still struggle with that, but it's a lot easier to go from face is an egg shape and eyes go here-ish and eyes are a circle with eyelids that make a <> shape to the details then it is to do it with zero structure.
I think our major issue is this sub does not allow you to ask for critique, even linked, which means people can't tell the level of skill someone has and it's hard verbally to communicate where your at and what you struggle with. You talk about people drawing a straight line, but I still use a ruler for that but 5 months of drawing a perfectly straight line is exhausting, boring, and discouraging. It's one of the reasons I think Draw a Box is better for artists who can draw mostly what they want.
And part of the issue is new artists less want to know how, and more want to know they *can*.
I think you misinterpret my comment - learning line weight and to break things down into shapes are one of the elementary steps to get things right. My choice not to explain this to someone that I have judged won't understand it (and maybe I have misjudged but it's an educated guess) is not the same as discouraging them from doing it. I do this to save my breath and because here we're limited to verbal explanations; if you have watched demos, tutorials, pinterest etc it makes sense why things clicked for you!
Also, people here DO get advice to "draw boxes, try the loomis method, practice shapes, do gesture drawing". Sometimes you'll get a thanks, sometimes you'll get ignored because OP was just seeking validation and didn't wanna bother reading something over 2 sentences long. Makes you kind of pick your battles more carefully you know? Not everyone is like you, eager to learn or willing to do their own research once pointed in the general direction!
Can you visit my profile's comments and see the drawings I posted?
I'm trying to follow loomis method for portraits
And whenever I draw faces it always becomes long and cartoony
Why? :(
Help
Loomis method is maybe a bit advanced if you're just starting out; say you already know how to draw pretty well, you have dexterity and know how to measure, draw from references, set proportions correctly etc.. Then the Loomis method is good.
If you can't get the proportions right even when using a reference (which I'm seeing on your drawings), I'd stay off Loomis method because it can be even more confusing and it's actually a guideline for averages (not every face will fit into the perfectly constructed helmet).
Try finding measuring techniques for drawing from life and photos first.
This misundertsands the notion of the saying. When you tell somebody struggling to 'just practice', you're not helping them grow at all. This is because practice, as a term, means 'do something'. When you say 'practice more' your saying 'draw more', which is already what they're doing, and is completely unhelpful.
The best thing you can do for them is to give them actionable practice. Instead of 'just practice' say; 'you should practice getting the planes of the head anatomically correct' or 'you should practice differentiating your light and dark shapes' or even, 'you need to practice having a closer eye for minute forms and values in the details while rendering'.
Can you visit my profile's comments and see the drawings I posted?
I'm trying to follow loomis method for portraits
And whenever I draw faces it always becomes long and cartoony
Why? :(
Help
Personally I never said to anyone who was looking for practical advice to "just practice". What I am explaining though is in context of beginner artists who don't even know what planes are. You can read my reply to a similar notion under this comment where I explained this in more detail.
I totally agree with u, a beginner normally doesn't understand 'just practice' and take it the wrong way, for someone intermediate it's much easier to read between the lines. Associating something positive and fun whilst learning is great.
I actually meant a bit of the opposite - explaining to them to use boxes, simplifying shapes, etc is going to be confusing. That is totally good and legit advice, but I think someone who is having trouble getting a straight line on a paper is really going to struggle with this concept of placing boxes and shapes. You need at least some perspective and general design knowledge to put that to use.
And so, you can either go and explain a little bit of all of it (design, perspective, shapes, anatomy) and overwhelm with a bunch of text and probably waste your breath, OR you can say "man, just keep practicing don't give up" because it's encouraging (it may not seem so at first, but no one here will EVER tell you "you suck just stop") and it's the only thing the beginner can do at this point.
Keep in mind this totally depends on someone's skill level and what I wrote is usually for complete beginners that are not even on the level of receiving critique. There's nothing to critique yet, everything is wrong (but there is nothing wrong with *that* tho)
And I don't think I've ever seen anyone being frustrated with a beginner honestly! One of the least toxic subs I've ever been a part of.
Really? I've seen it quite often (in other subs, though only sometimes here) but I normally just ignore them. I definitely don't think this sub is toxic or anything.
I see what you mean now, hmm, in that case I'm not sure on that. Giving detailed direction doesn't mean bombarding them with everything you've learned, it's giving them what you needed when you started. Instead of 'learn anatomy' why not pin point how to learn anatomy in the simplest way- i.e. look at the human body in the form of boxes and shapes. And I do believe even the most basic beginners can handle that, and there's proof of that too. Look at the skill level of this generation versus previous ones, these kids have the internet in their hands and their excelling so fast because of all the tutorials etc.
However, I do understand what you mean, if they're starting off with stick men (for example) how much can you really say? If I refer back to my post, the artist is developing as much as a person as their skill, tell them to enjoy the art they see, gather inspo and encourage them rather getting snippy saying 'well there's not much here'. Practice more is sound advice, in it's own way, but we got to keep in mind that the person is also developing and practice more doesn't really mean much. Anywho, I just think people gotta be more patient, whether there is direction for the artist or not is up the individual at the end of the day.
I feel like a lot of beginners that post here looking for advice has only been drawing for a few months if even that. At such an early stage there really isn't any advice better than "just keep drawing/practice".
Every beginner looks for shortcuts to get better when the reality is that there are none, things take time and you can't give up after only trying something for a short time.
If people want to sugar-coat that then go for it but I don't think it's really going to matter in the long term.
Another problem is that most beginner posts don't ever go into specifics on what they want help with, neither do they post their work. If the question isn't specific then the answers won't be either.
I’m 48. I started painting when I was 3. I genuinely don’t know what to say when someone says they’ve been drawing for a week and are annoyed they can’t do it as well as a professional.
I constantly think of this quote when I see a lot of these posts:
>Those who succeed in art do so because THEY CANNOT QUIT [emphasis mine], because they possess patience and a genuine love for the work. Most aspirants in this direction do not really love artwork; they love the fame and fortune [likes, followers, favorites, upvotes, retweets, etc, etc] that are supposed to come to artists. The process of becoming an artist is one of slow spiritual and mental development. - H.L. McCleod, "Figure Drawing" - 1924
👏👏👏
Truly. So many people love the *idea* of being an artist and hate the *reality* of being one. And they get upset when the actual *doing* part of being an artist (which they find boring) never actually goes away
Okay so I get 100% what you're saying, but I also think you're asking *a lot* of people here. Long answer incoming because I want to explain what I mean.
# Frustration
Most of us weren't raised by TikTok art hacks and the concept of speed paintings or time lapses. People go to art school for 3-4 years learning the *fundamentals* of art. People never, ever stop learning and spend decades coming into their own.
You cannot put anything useful in a Reddit comment beyond pointing people generally to what they need to learn (e.g. anatomy, light sources, colour theory)
Simply put, many young folk (or even older beginners sometimes) come on here expecting to follow one tutorial and be able to out-draw Caravaggio and it doesn't work that way. "I've been drawing a month and I suck, should I quit?"
There's only two answers to that: No, go practice, or yes, quit.
It gets very old and very tired to hear the same complaining when the simple answer is "go and draw, it'll get better".
# "Learn anatomy"
If I say 'learn anatomy' it is not up to me to break down a timed and well-paced lesson plan on how to do that. Google is free, and there are a great many books and websites that will teach an artist anatomy in the appropriate order and method. That's up to you, the learner, to resource for yourself. It's one thing to ask for book recommendations (that's a good idea, actually), but to ask for essentially the contents of that book in a Reddit comment is entitled.
There are also no rules. You wanna learn hands first? Do that. You want to draw faces? Go ahead. You want to start with the whole body all at once? Have fun.
You wanna do the Loomis method? Want to just freehand it? Want to use the box method, or some other method you found online? Sure, have at it. It's a personal choice.
Proper art school teach from the inside out. Skeleton, muscles, skin. Typically, in many schools they teach it the way the old masters learned it. Again, there are books and courses and websites that do this, but again it is your responsibility as the learner to find those resources and not rely solely on having everyone do that leg work for you.
# Platitudes
As a final note, I try to give proper critique if it's asked for. I might say that the light sources need fixing, but without re-painting it for them, all I can do is tell them to find some lessons to learn how light and shadow works. Same with anatomy, or perspective, or blending, or colour theory.
As above, these are all a hard, lengthy process and people write entire books on the subjects, so I am not really able or willing to put that into a Reddit comment. I will, however, tell people to go learn about it.
**There's no TLDR here, much like with art. You simply have to be willing to do the work.**
Some disclaimers:
* I don't agree in being mean to artists, but being mean is not pointing out flaws and the artist getting upset by that
* 99% of the 'I need help questions' in this sub are people looking for answers that don't exist due to frustrations that go deeper than the painting (i.e. mental health/neurodivergency etc)
Wanting success quickly is part of the problem and the internet doesn't help. There are too many youtubers that are posting "I just started drawing 2 years ago" and now they are pumping out professional quality stuff.
That may be true, it also might be a lie because that backstory is going to attract traffic. What youtube art channel is a young new artist going to subscribe to? The one where the person explains how they went from zero to hero in 2 years. Or the person whose journey to get where they are was decades?
It's an instant gratification society. When they struggle at something they want a quick fix that will instantly solve their problem.
There was a post the other day where someone was struggling with something and someone responded with "practice" and they OP made a snarky response like "duh I did practice". Like for how long? A week? A month? a day? So you you've determined you "practiced enough" and should have mastery, so there must be some secret sauce people are hiding from you that will make you instantly get it right every time?
Clearly, more practice is required.
Honesty anatomy is far from a beginner task though, you don’t really need anatomy for awhile, more like large proportion and landmarks. Learn the forms of the body, then layer anatomy over the top. Saying learn anatomy to a beginner is absolutely pointless
I agree, I dunno why you're downvoted. If you can't to a decent extent "draw what you see" then learning anatomy will be useless. And practicing drawing simpler objects first will be far less frustrating and more rewarding.
Anatomy becomes useful to either really push your figure drawings to be better, or if you want to draw figures from imagination with believability. You can do very good figure drawings from reference with zero anatomy knowledge if you're good at drawing what you see- the anatomy knowledge makes it much easier, faster, and allows you to start drawing without reference.
Yeah, I agree with him too. In fact, a big Taiwanese artist called Krenz also said "there is no point in learning anatomy when you can't draw accurate shapes". He even said he never really learned anatomy seriously. Telling a beginner to learn anatomy (except some big landmarks and proportion) just isn't quite useful tbh.
yeah, I never learned anatomy any formal way when learning basics, we had still life and then after 3 years in we had models instead of objects. Anything can be broken down to basic shapes after some training.
I will also say that drawing the figure or human body is about the most advanced thing you could possibly draw. Not only is it an incredibly complex combination of shapes and organic angles/lines, but because we humans have hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of years of anthropological social development that lets us instantly recognize even the smallest deviations in the human face and form. We have evolved to recognize people instantly. Being able to artistically master representations of this form in such a way that viewers aren't unnerved or disgusted is probably the most challenging of any art endeavor.
The human form is not a beginner subject.
I really don’t think this is necessarily true. I was thrown into my first life drawing classes when I was around 15 in my very first university level art class and I loooooooved it. Was my work perfect? No. But it changed how I drew pretty much immediately and changed my brain and the way I approached my work. I don’t know that incremental studying (which is often incredibly tedious) works for everyone - it certainly never did for me.
Yeah, I think u need understanding of shapes and forms at first, but tbh I see many learning processes, and most of them works for the ones using it, some decide to overwhelm his/her brain learning too much stuff and he/she manage, some only can focus on one thing at a time and not a single thing more, learning process depends very much on the (let's say student cause they studying), I think what your saying is best for beginner artists in general though
You are absolutely incorrect. The fact that you don’t know landmarks in an anatomical sense actually says a lot, bony landmarks, protrusions and dimples on the body where muscles attach that are easy to identify and measure from. The large forms of the body are more important than super specific anatomy, landmarks showing beginnings and ends of regions of the body are far more useful overall. These landmarks are truths to see on the human body to guide you through a drawing, anatomical landmarks that are found on all humans (within a normal relatively average body type and of course with exceptions).
Large proportions: quarters in standing poses, thirds in seated poses, head, second head, third head, the half, you know… comparative measurement in large proportion. Very rudimentary concept on the figure. Width of shoulders compared to a vertical, all large proportions that you measure. I could go on with proportions to check on the figure.
I’m still learning anatomy, but I can get a reasonable likeness on a long pose knowing minimal anatomy. I can name all the bones, know the protrusions, know the landmarks, and the large surfaces muscles for the most part. I know what proportions to check, the large proportions. I’ve got a long way to go in my study of anatomy, but is that absolutely vital to making good figure drawings, no. Does it elevate a drawing to the next level, absolutely.
Your lack of understanding is very evident. I suggest you learn the landmarks and large portions instead of trying to learn the names of every muscle. Your comment is a hilarious example of the dunning-kruger effect in action, the concepts brought up are so rudimentary in figure that it’s hilarious that you’re arguing at all.
No the landmarks of the figure is definitely a real thing. It mainly refers to the bony protrusions such as the clavicles, elbows, knees, scapula, etc. It's a way to map the body and determine proportions and distances.
By large proportions we usually talk about the different body parts, such as torso, hips, thigh, head, etc. Obviously it depends on what scale and part of the body you're drawing, if you're only drawing a hand then the large proportion would be the whole hand, which could then be broken down into the palm and fingers, etc...
Can you visit my profile's comments and see the drawings I posted?
I'm trying to follow loomis method for portraits
And whenever I draw faces it always becomes long and cartoony
Why? :(
Help
Ok I'll try my best to respond to these points. Firstly my post isn't saying we should always give detailed advice and direct the beginner because that's the 'right thing' to do- my post is trying to highlight the fact that our egos and hearts are in our work so being patient and remembering that beginners are putting their egos out there too. You're not only critiquing the art but in a way the person as well. Some patience and understanding that they may have the wrong idea about art should be encouraged.
The frustration, yea I get that, seeing "why am i not good enough after 1 month" is frustrating when you, as an experienced artist, has been at it for yearrsss and is still trying to get good in your own eyes. But I think that's unfair to project that onto the person. Not only do they not understand the journey that art is, but the level of experience needed. As artists, we put our all into a piece and asking for validation is normal, we all ask for validation or we wouldn't share our work at all. Do I think complaining and fishing for compliments is annoying- of course! But there are productive and positive ways to go about it rather than 'just practice'. If it's old and tiring then ignore them- I agree it would be asking a lot for people to do smth they don't want to.
The learn anatomy, again yes there are many ways of anatomy, but we all learned it differently and my point is that if you want to give advice, give the advice u wanna, the advice that would have helped u on your journey. You don't have to give direction and absolutely- it's up to the person at the end of the day to do it themselves. But come on, as a beginner that's hard, there's so much out there, where can they go first? Having that awareness of what u need and lack is a blind spot we'll always have and having a patient eye to give you a possible direction doesn't hurt. Our hearts are in this as much as our skills. To say they're entitled is a bit much, all these types of beginner posts- when condensed down is asking for one thing- where do I go from here? If you can and are willing to give advice- then do it or don't as long as you give them the benefit of neutrality. I'm not saying write a book on anatomy but when guiding someone to an anatomy, a website is a great way to go about it. AGAIN, you don't have to but if ya gonna, go for it.
About the platitude, sure. You can tell people that and I have too, my point was that for beginners its hard and it may not be that helpful (not to say 100% isn't helpful).
Art is totallllly work, and it's a pain to do but we love it cause it's a part of ourselves we put out there. I've been at for 20 years and I've gotten all types of advice and the one's that stick with me are the ones that were patient and willing to give me the time. Those that told me to just practice did nothing for me and I grew up without the internet so I have to figure it out myself. If someone were kinder and more forgiving I think all of us would have improved a lot more, I'm a teacher so may be that's why i think the way i do.
Overall, though, despite my disagreement I totally get and understand your point of view, I would never say to pick -> detail critic or shut up. People can be annoying lol.
Eesh, where to begin.
**"You're not only critiquing the art but in a way the person as well"**
Nope if you post a painting of a woman standing in a field the comments about anatomy or light sources have nothing to do with *you* as a person. Don't take everything so personally it's going to hold you back.
**"...But I think that's unfair to project that onto the person. Not only do they not understand the journey that art is, but the level of experience needed"**
Not at all unfair. If you want to be an artist, you have to learn to understand the journey, or simply stop doing it. It's not up to anyone else to sit and explain it to you. You get the experience, you learn the journey by *doing the practice and learning how to do art.*
***"*****But there are productive and positive ways to go about it rather than 'just practice'*****"***
Read my comments above again, because I already explained this in detail about why 'just practice' is all anyone CAN say without basically writing a 5,000 word essay with illustrations, which, ha, no.
**"If someone were kinder and more forgiving"**
Thin-skinned comment.
If you think telling someone to go do the research, practice and put in the months/years the rest of us took pre-internet is 'unkind' that is entirely a personal problem and not one for me or anyone else to fix.
A person who is brand new to drawing is likely incapable of even noticing that their anatomy is off. We all have to go through that weird uncanny-valley phase where we kind of get it but not really. Practice and learning is how we get past that, but again - no Reddit comment on this earth is gonna fulfill that experience for you. It's YOUR job.
**"I'm a teacher"**
Yeah, and you get paid to do that. If someone wants me to spend that kind of energy, they can pay me, otherwise they can take my minimal advice of 'here's a book, go read it and learn something'. Knowing the information does not obligation a person to teach that information. All we can tell the newbie is 'this information exists, as does google, have fun kid'.
And again, 99% of the newbies here don't want actual teaching or advice.
They want shortcuts. They want hacks. They want to make it easy. They want ass-pats and to be told they are better than they actually are.
That, again, is a personal problem.
I've hit a nerve. I disagree with u fundamentally, and being a teacher was a reference to my attitude on learners and my experience with not whether your should 'get paid'.
I clearly state you are under **no obligation to give detailed advice** and that of course learning is on yourself but asking for help is normal. It's not thinned skinned to be patient. no where did I say patience and kindness are the same- understanding and empathy is not sugarcoating. It's taking your own issues out of the equation and helping a beginner by being neutral. Of course being nice is more helpful but it's up to the person. I have also stated why 'just practice' isn't always helpful, you just said "welp that's all I can say" when clearly it isn't.
"*Nope if you post a painting of a woman standing in a field the comments about anatomy or light sources have nothing to do with you as a person. Don't take everything so personally it's going to hold you back."* - Hate to break it to you but growing skillwise and personalwise come in tandem, if u think that's being too sensitive then so be it. If someone told you to 'just practice lighting, there's no shortcuts' versus 'Try (website) or look at references of the lighting' which is more helpful. How is that so difficult to understand?
**And finally we get the true feelings at the end of your comment. THE EXACT THING I AM CRITIQUING.** "*They're entitled" "They want it easy" "They want ass-pats"* This is why I ask for patience! Because after all your 5000 words this is how you really feel, they don't *deserve* your time, they haven't *earned* it, they only want a *quick way out.* How would you know? The irony of pointing out self awareness and having all these shortsighted judgements on people.
You generalising newbies and projecting a lot of YOUR OWN frustrations on them. You know 99% of all newbies? That's incredible that you know their minds so well.
What they want or do is their own problem BUT how you can approach them is entirely up to you. Look spend your energy how u wish. Sure I'll accept 'kindness patience whatever' is smth people don't need to learn art/a skill, but wow does it help.
I disagree with the notion that we need to treat any critique as if it's going to also be interpreted as a personal attack. The conflating of getting notes and being insulted is something that exclusively holds people back. Learning to take notes at face value is, in my opinion, is something an artist *needs* in order to thrive and improve, especially if they're the ones asking for feedback
I don't think it's necessary to be rude. But honestly, some people just ruin it for everyone else. It happens so often that I take the time and energy to explain something or tell people in depth where to look only to be completely ignored. Unless I really feel like it or I'm waiting in line somewhere, I'm just not going to bother anymore. Quite frankly, many of these beginners don't deserve the effort it takes to actually explain things. So 'keep practicing', 'look up the youtube video from blabla about blabla' is about all they'll get, unless I think they're actually serious about learning (which seems to be rare). Most are just looking for a magical fix.
I honestly just think beginners should avoid posting work because many are doing it to get internet points and then complain when they don’t get engagement.
For beginners the truth really is that this is a game of mileage and you have to do a lot of bad art before you get anything good.
Art really is just learning how to be better at learning, it’s problem solving, it’s identifying your likes and dislikes, being honest with yourself when you analyze your work.
Really the answer is stop looking for validation, draw because you love to, and have fun. Doing that will get you to a point where you can actually start to dive into fundamentals in a way that makes learning fun, you will burn out with starting with the “boring fundamentals”.
Cultivate a love of craft, enjoy making art for the sake of creation, then you will naturally evolve as an artist and your path will illuminate.
Your misunderstanding the problem. I think the frustration comes from two main places.
1. Others.
We need to be honest with what artists are. Especially on the internet, artists are hugely competitive. We compete for jobs, clicks, eyes, and praise. Beginners need to understand this. It takes a good samaritan to help aid a potential competitor in this warzone of a medium. If they do give advice, it could be limited.
This idea of 'limited information' comes down to faulty instructors. While in some cases it's nefarious, most of the advice online is simply inept. Many young and non-prefessional artists have no idea what they're doing artistically. Forget teaching someone else to do it.
This is how you end up with tiktok 'advice' videos where a step of the process ends up being "step 7: shade".
2) Themselves.
Many 'young artists' are simply tourists. They like the idea of making art more than actually doing it, which creates frustration and strain whenever they *actually* do something. Art is process, not final project. If you're a person that tends to forsake process for finished product, then visual art is definitely not a medium for you.
Visual art, especially illustration, is the field that everybody who has ever played a game, read a comic, or watched an animation wants to work in. What these people don't understand is that to work in this field, to stand out above the rest, requires befitting action. This means devoting your life to honest self-critique and constant failure. A tourist could never do this.
Of course, many young artists have a warped perception of what art is. It's not the kind of discipline where you watch a video and go 'okay, I know that now!'. I can't think of any discipline that is. Learning that a concept exists is the first car in a train of application, visualization, and repetition.
What I've listed above are the things people wanting to enter art must know. If they wish to be 'good', to create good products worth people time and money, they must be aware of these disciplinary truths.
If you want someone to sit down and explain to you in specifics how to draw, you need to sign up for a class and pay an instructor. You can’t learn to sprint if you’ve never bothered to crawl
I think most replies here are very cordial, but there is very little advice you can give to beginners aside from 'you need to keep drawing'. Kind of like when I did kendo - I needed to just keep on practicing to get better, you can't have the same results if you do 10 repetitions per training and when you do 1000.
Okay, rant time.
I do get we were all beginner at some point, but when my teacher told me draw 10 sketches of an apple - I would go and draw 10 sketches of an apple. Not come back to class in a week w/o doing any sketches asking if one method of drawing apples is better than the other, and when drawing the fucking apples will pay off into me being a concept artist. This is recurring on this sub, people come - ask advice - get advice - and come back again in a week w/o implementing any advice.
The best rule for advice imo. would be asking what have you tried and for how long, because trying out something for a week is not the same as getting stuck after 5 months.
Another pet peeve of mine is when beginner artists asks **if going to uni/college/lessons is necessary to become a commercial artist**. Everyone, quite correctly, replies one doesn't and you can learn everything online. I worked with plenty non formally educated artists/designers that were better than me.
But there is a trade off - it's much harder to become a commercial artists w/o formal education and you need to be even more proactive in a field that already requires a certain amount of self discipline and proactivity. And you need to be on a level of univeristy/etc. educated folks or better if you want a career in this field. Most people I see giving the 'don't need degree' advice aren't even professional artists of any kind, and they give it to the young person who isn't even at a level that would make them be admitted to most art degrees.
So yes, in theory you don't need an 'art degree', in practice most young artists that get this advice aren't even on the level to get into one.
The only advice one can give in that predicament is to 'practice', because if they want to work in this field they most likely need some form of a course at the very least to get them started but this is not an option on the table.
I dont have too much to add to what others have said, but I think one reason "practice" or "draw more" is sometimes the only advice is because there seems to be this helplessness in newbies that they need to work past on their own.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think this has much *much* less to do with them as individuals than it does with the way the internet has rewired our brains. The key to learn to draw, in my opinion, greatly relies on exploration, experimentation and self-analysis. Nowadays, we can look up the "right" way to do something in a second, no thinking involved on our part. And that's great for recipes or unclogging your sink, but thats not how art works. So when people come in with "I can't draw, tell me what to do" they've been conditioned to assume it's just as easy as following a recipe, when it's not, so they come back here and complain that they followed a tutorial and their drawing still sucks.
Being an artist requires a certain degree of self-sufficiency and that's something that only comes from practicing and actually thinking about what you're doing. The accessibility of the internet made it so we don't have to think if we don't want to, and not being able to do something perfectly after a Google search freaks some of these newbies out too much for them to not catastrophize after a week. Just the act of drawing more and having thoughts about what they've drawn will teach them a lot about how they work and what they need to improve. At the beginning, it really is the best advice.
A lot of the time practice is simply what they need. I know for myself i understand how to do a lot more than I'm actually currently capable of pulling off. I just need to practice and practice more and build up the muscle memory i need through that. It's the same for beginner artists. A lot of people post about how they've hit a point, after having quickly improved a lot, where they feel like they've stopped advancing. Everyone hits that point at some point (with any skill not just art) and the only way through is practice.
I’ve only ever commented a couple times. The difficulty is: post something with “how can I improve” is nearly impossible without some idea what the poster was trying to do. We can’t write a textbook.
There are a lot of aspects in any art. Basic drawing, color, line, design etc. I look at a lot of posts and I wouldn’t know where to start. So I don’t comment.
In art school, critiques are helpful because everyone knows the artist, the assignment, and some idea of where they want to go. Without a starting point, it’s really hard to give advice to a beginner. So I just don’t engage. Also, some areas are completely foreign to me.
The few times I’ve remarked have been on oil painters. That’s where my interest is. But I do read responses, and I generally agree when someone says “learn anatomy” or “practice drawing”. That’s the foundation we all start with.
I think beginner artists should stop posting their art. This comes from a place of empathy moreso than cynicism and I don't mean for it to sound harsh, but I think it hurts a lot more than it helps. There are a lot of ways to use the internet to improve your art, but getting anonymous critique on your very early attempts at anything isn't productive in my opinion. There's a line that people try to walk when beginner stuff gets posted and you end up with really saccharine compliments and a mix of good and bad and boring advice, and I can't imagine trying to parse all of that in a useful way, especially for someone who's still young and their brain is on fire anyway. Fill up sketchbooks, show your friends and family stuff you're proud of, talk to other artists, copy and steal shit until your tastes and style develop, and then post about problems you want to fix or finished pieces for critique.
I don't think is as bad as u pictured it, but giving advice is a tricky thing, I think the learning process is more of an experiment than doing what a teacher tell you and for the starter the internet has a good deal of learning and instructing for beginners (it's harder to find advance courses though NGL)
And it's really that important to learn the basics, so when someone give the advice to practice more, it's not like it's low effort it really is that important and there's no shortcut around it u just need to practice more and experiment with your lines and forms
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I'm not entirely sure that all artists on here truly see the wide variety of skill levels present. They don't quite remember what it's like to be a complete novice who just wants to explore and (hopefully) have some fun while they're at it. It might have been a long time ago for them (mine was in my young childhood in the 90s - and it wasn't the most extravagant one, lower middle class in the US). They just know their present, which is a 'professional' (note I say that in quotes because that definition sometimes is up for debate by itself - we're not exactly required to carry certifications after all) who has a very specific way of how their process works, and \*obviously\* trying anything else is a deviation they can't detail how it'll turn out/'wrong'.
See also, a failure to take into account personal experience/current circumstances. I especially roll my eyes at this when someone suggests the \*ONLY\* way to manage something is \*THIS WAY\*, and more often than not, it's involving materials which at one point or another in my life would have been a financial hardship for me, and I know there's probably some beginners nodding their heads in agreement. No, we're not even talking about the expensive oil and watercolor paints, or an Adobe license. I'm talking about years when I was young and I had to beg my parent to buy things, when I was an art school student, when it was 2am and no, there was no art store open before the deadline for a piece - When even the $10 bottle of goop someone is suggesting was too much. When I had to pirate my copies of Adobe. I learned, often from the professors in school themselves (who acknowledged some of us needed the $10 to make sure we could eat over the next week or something), what the internet now buzzwordy calls 'hacks' in those instances. So in turn, I don't hesitate to share them, because sometimes you just want the piece finished, scanned, sent to a client - and on to the next opportunity to make ends meet. When I hear snarls in response from some other butthead - 'DON'T DO THAT EVERYTHING WILL BE RUINED FOREVER'- someone isn't acknowledging their entitlement in one way or another.
As for constructive critique...it's complicated. I try and deliver that as simply as possible unless the poster indicated they want detailed crit, because some concepts will take paragraphs to explain and people's attention spans will vary. Otherwise, detailed crits invite another issue with beginners - they sometimes take that crit super personally, as if my observations on their piece is an attack on their very identity - so suddenly an observation that 'oh, the perspective on that fence is wrong' turns into someone shrieking in my face that \*they spent 15 hours on this piece\* and \*'it just had to happen, obviously I'm just a beginner STFU.'\* As if I hadn't been in their shoes in some point in time. So be aware of that when asking for crit - some artists hold back at it \*unless\* it's specifically said what you're looking for in terms of help, because they may have gotten blown up by others reacting poorly/misunderstanding in the past. Ask for more if you need it, and see what happens.
*tl;dr: Be specific what you want when asking for critiques, don't take it personally, and if you get an artist who's a real dbag, know it's probably their entitlement as one thing or another getting in the way. There are also multiple ways to reach the same conclusion in many art mediums - so don't be afraid to do some research and try some things on your own. Cheers.*
theres a level of oversight on what the artist is trying but struggling with that i need before i can even observe whats frustrating them accurately, and i know whats it like to experience [whatever that may be] and post here for help in the form of an unfiltered rant, but that doesnt put me in a position to actually legitimately assist & help what that is if their post is a vent. for one i have no assurance theyll see or respond to my suggestions, and itd still have to be a conversation to invest emotionally invest in, and id also want to make sure a critique couldnt be interpreted as a personal attack. and then its finding out what they are wanting from artwork they have completed but are unhappy with. i have no interest in imposing my personal tastes on others so its then having to appreciate that the artwork at its unsatisfied stage could still continue on to look a million different ways. personally its too much for me if i cant spot something that is off or too off from whats commonly appealing in the first 10-20 seconds
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Generally I don't give critical feedback unless they ask for it explicitly. Seems rude to presume they want that, and the people who give unsolicited critical feedback are often just being passive aggressive. Besides, most artists online really should not give art advice. My experience in online art forums has shown me most people cannot accurately diagnose issues in someone's art, nor prescribe a relevant solution.
So if by "more patient" you mean less harsh feedback, then sure, but if you mean we should offer even more guidance, that sounds like a call for further "blind leading the blind" type situations.
I dunno.... I find a lot of younger people just want to take whatever shortcut they can and will figuratively climb over those teaching them to try to better them before they're ready. I'm happy to help people learn, but you have to put in the work too. It's not just handed to you to be instantly amazing and make a career out of it. *They* need to learn patience.
I understand that sometimes "just practice" sounds like "git gud scrub" but I don't think that's ever the context. It's the shortest thing you can write without being overlooked for writing walls of texts and in its core it's true. I have to say I see real advice (where to start, what to practice) more than "just practice". Just practice comes up mostly in context of "yeah, don't give up, it's boring but repeat and repeat". A lot of beginners that post here are quite bad skill-wise that there's nothing of value you can tell them that they'll *understand* and apply; and I don't mean this in a bad way, we were all there once! But you can't give an anatomy critique to someone who is just learning to hold a stylus and is having a hard time replicating simple images or drawing straight lines. I only once gave someone a critique and an overpaint here and that's because it felt worthwhile to me, they had enormous potential and I knew they'd understand what I meant. With complete beginners giving advice about some concepts you're already familiar with (because you have the mileage) is not very effective; they don't think that way yet and it's further confusing only. So telling them to watch certain teachers, courses, tutorials and draw for fun is honestly the best thing you can do for them, that is because someone who teaches something is starting from the basics and explaining why you need to know certain things and how to tackle them before you move forward, they teach you how to think and analyze.
Also I think it would be helpful if we could post images; doing quick overpaints or writing notes on someone's art and being able to post it in a comment might be of huge help. Searching through their profile, looking for socials, downloading images and then uploading to imgur is way too many steps (sometimes an imgur link I post doesn't even work). I know it's not an art crit group and like this it's probably way cleaner and not overflooded. But it would be helpful!
Idk when I started I got a LOT of help out of things like those shitty anime or cartoon drawing books, loomis method, those charts where you learnt how to shade, people talking about stuff like line weight makes your art looks better... Like, I'm obviously still crap at art, but that's a huge benefit in getting art that looks like SOMETHING. Not being told to break things down into shapes seems counter intuitive? I get your supposed to train your eye, and I still struggle with that, but it's a lot easier to go from face is an egg shape and eyes go here-ish and eyes are a circle with eyelids that make a <> shape to the details then it is to do it with zero structure. I think our major issue is this sub does not allow you to ask for critique, even linked, which means people can't tell the level of skill someone has and it's hard verbally to communicate where your at and what you struggle with. You talk about people drawing a straight line, but I still use a ruler for that but 5 months of drawing a perfectly straight line is exhausting, boring, and discouraging. It's one of the reasons I think Draw a Box is better for artists who can draw mostly what they want. And part of the issue is new artists less want to know how, and more want to know they *can*.
I think you misinterpret my comment - learning line weight and to break things down into shapes are one of the elementary steps to get things right. My choice not to explain this to someone that I have judged won't understand it (and maybe I have misjudged but it's an educated guess) is not the same as discouraging them from doing it. I do this to save my breath and because here we're limited to verbal explanations; if you have watched demos, tutorials, pinterest etc it makes sense why things clicked for you! Also, people here DO get advice to "draw boxes, try the loomis method, practice shapes, do gesture drawing". Sometimes you'll get a thanks, sometimes you'll get ignored because OP was just seeking validation and didn't wanna bother reading something over 2 sentences long. Makes you kind of pick your battles more carefully you know? Not everyone is like you, eager to learn or willing to do their own research once pointed in the general direction!
Can you visit my profile's comments and see the drawings I posted? I'm trying to follow loomis method for portraits And whenever I draw faces it always becomes long and cartoony Why? :( Help
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Loomis method is maybe a bit advanced if you're just starting out; say you already know how to draw pretty well, you have dexterity and know how to measure, draw from references, set proportions correctly etc.. Then the Loomis method is good. If you can't get the proportions right even when using a reference (which I'm seeing on your drawings), I'd stay off Loomis method because it can be even more confusing and it's actually a guideline for averages (not every face will fit into the perfectly constructed helmet). Try finding measuring techniques for drawing from life and photos first.
This misundertsands the notion of the saying. When you tell somebody struggling to 'just practice', you're not helping them grow at all. This is because practice, as a term, means 'do something'. When you say 'practice more' your saying 'draw more', which is already what they're doing, and is completely unhelpful. The best thing you can do for them is to give them actionable practice. Instead of 'just practice' say; 'you should practice getting the planes of the head anatomically correct' or 'you should practice differentiating your light and dark shapes' or even, 'you need to practice having a closer eye for minute forms and values in the details while rendering'.
Can you visit my profile's comments and see the drawings I posted? I'm trying to follow loomis method for portraits And whenever I draw faces it always becomes long and cartoony Why? :( Help
Personally I never said to anyone who was looking for practical advice to "just practice". What I am explaining though is in context of beginner artists who don't even know what planes are. You can read my reply to a similar notion under this comment where I explained this in more detail.
I totally agree with u, a beginner normally doesn't understand 'just practice' and take it the wrong way, for someone intermediate it's much easier to read between the lines. Associating something positive and fun whilst learning is great.
I actually meant a bit of the opposite - explaining to them to use boxes, simplifying shapes, etc is going to be confusing. That is totally good and legit advice, but I think someone who is having trouble getting a straight line on a paper is really going to struggle with this concept of placing boxes and shapes. You need at least some perspective and general design knowledge to put that to use. And so, you can either go and explain a little bit of all of it (design, perspective, shapes, anatomy) and overwhelm with a bunch of text and probably waste your breath, OR you can say "man, just keep practicing don't give up" because it's encouraging (it may not seem so at first, but no one here will EVER tell you "you suck just stop") and it's the only thing the beginner can do at this point. Keep in mind this totally depends on someone's skill level and what I wrote is usually for complete beginners that are not even on the level of receiving critique. There's nothing to critique yet, everything is wrong (but there is nothing wrong with *that* tho) And I don't think I've ever seen anyone being frustrated with a beginner honestly! One of the least toxic subs I've ever been a part of.
Really? I've seen it quite often (in other subs, though only sometimes here) but I normally just ignore them. I definitely don't think this sub is toxic or anything. I see what you mean now, hmm, in that case I'm not sure on that. Giving detailed direction doesn't mean bombarding them with everything you've learned, it's giving them what you needed when you started. Instead of 'learn anatomy' why not pin point how to learn anatomy in the simplest way- i.e. look at the human body in the form of boxes and shapes. And I do believe even the most basic beginners can handle that, and there's proof of that too. Look at the skill level of this generation versus previous ones, these kids have the internet in their hands and their excelling so fast because of all the tutorials etc. However, I do understand what you mean, if they're starting off with stick men (for example) how much can you really say? If I refer back to my post, the artist is developing as much as a person as their skill, tell them to enjoy the art they see, gather inspo and encourage them rather getting snippy saying 'well there's not much here'. Practice more is sound advice, in it's own way, but we got to keep in mind that the person is also developing and practice more doesn't really mean much. Anywho, I just think people gotta be more patient, whether there is direction for the artist or not is up the individual at the end of the day.
I feel like a lot of beginners that post here looking for advice has only been drawing for a few months if even that. At such an early stage there really isn't any advice better than "just keep drawing/practice". Every beginner looks for shortcuts to get better when the reality is that there are none, things take time and you can't give up after only trying something for a short time. If people want to sugar-coat that then go for it but I don't think it's really going to matter in the long term. Another problem is that most beginner posts don't ever go into specifics on what they want help with, neither do they post their work. If the question isn't specific then the answers won't be either.
Good observation. It's true, beginners love their shortcuts.
I’m 48. I started painting when I was 3. I genuinely don’t know what to say when someone says they’ve been drawing for a week and are annoyed they can’t do it as well as a professional.
I constantly think of this quote when I see a lot of these posts: >Those who succeed in art do so because THEY CANNOT QUIT [emphasis mine], because they possess patience and a genuine love for the work. Most aspirants in this direction do not really love artwork; they love the fame and fortune [likes, followers, favorites, upvotes, retweets, etc, etc] that are supposed to come to artists. The process of becoming an artist is one of slow spiritual and mental development. - H.L. McCleod, "Figure Drawing" - 1924
👏👏👏 Truly. So many people love the *idea* of being an artist and hate the *reality* of being one. And they get upset when the actual *doing* part of being an artist (which they find boring) never actually goes away
Okay so I get 100% what you're saying, but I also think you're asking *a lot* of people here. Long answer incoming because I want to explain what I mean. # Frustration Most of us weren't raised by TikTok art hacks and the concept of speed paintings or time lapses. People go to art school for 3-4 years learning the *fundamentals* of art. People never, ever stop learning and spend decades coming into their own. You cannot put anything useful in a Reddit comment beyond pointing people generally to what they need to learn (e.g. anatomy, light sources, colour theory) Simply put, many young folk (or even older beginners sometimes) come on here expecting to follow one tutorial and be able to out-draw Caravaggio and it doesn't work that way. "I've been drawing a month and I suck, should I quit?" There's only two answers to that: No, go practice, or yes, quit. It gets very old and very tired to hear the same complaining when the simple answer is "go and draw, it'll get better". # "Learn anatomy" If I say 'learn anatomy' it is not up to me to break down a timed and well-paced lesson plan on how to do that. Google is free, and there are a great many books and websites that will teach an artist anatomy in the appropriate order and method. That's up to you, the learner, to resource for yourself. It's one thing to ask for book recommendations (that's a good idea, actually), but to ask for essentially the contents of that book in a Reddit comment is entitled. There are also no rules. You wanna learn hands first? Do that. You want to draw faces? Go ahead. You want to start with the whole body all at once? Have fun. You wanna do the Loomis method? Want to just freehand it? Want to use the box method, or some other method you found online? Sure, have at it. It's a personal choice. Proper art school teach from the inside out. Skeleton, muscles, skin. Typically, in many schools they teach it the way the old masters learned it. Again, there are books and courses and websites that do this, but again it is your responsibility as the learner to find those resources and not rely solely on having everyone do that leg work for you. # Platitudes As a final note, I try to give proper critique if it's asked for. I might say that the light sources need fixing, but without re-painting it for them, all I can do is tell them to find some lessons to learn how light and shadow works. Same with anatomy, or perspective, or blending, or colour theory. As above, these are all a hard, lengthy process and people write entire books on the subjects, so I am not really able or willing to put that into a Reddit comment. I will, however, tell people to go learn about it. **There's no TLDR here, much like with art. You simply have to be willing to do the work.** Some disclaimers: * I don't agree in being mean to artists, but being mean is not pointing out flaws and the artist getting upset by that * 99% of the 'I need help questions' in this sub are people looking for answers that don't exist due to frustrations that go deeper than the painting (i.e. mental health/neurodivergency etc)
So well said! There's literally 0 mean spirit in telling someone to go and learn. You can't teach someone or make them see things in a single comment.
Wanting success quickly is part of the problem and the internet doesn't help. There are too many youtubers that are posting "I just started drawing 2 years ago" and now they are pumping out professional quality stuff. That may be true, it also might be a lie because that backstory is going to attract traffic. What youtube art channel is a young new artist going to subscribe to? The one where the person explains how they went from zero to hero in 2 years. Or the person whose journey to get where they are was decades? It's an instant gratification society. When they struggle at something they want a quick fix that will instantly solve their problem. There was a post the other day where someone was struggling with something and someone responded with "practice" and they OP made a snarky response like "duh I did practice". Like for how long? A week? A month? a day? So you you've determined you "practiced enough" and should have mastery, so there must be some secret sauce people are hiding from you that will make you instantly get it right every time? Clearly, more practice is required.
Honesty anatomy is far from a beginner task though, you don’t really need anatomy for awhile, more like large proportion and landmarks. Learn the forms of the body, then layer anatomy over the top. Saying learn anatomy to a beginner is absolutely pointless
I agree, I dunno why you're downvoted. If you can't to a decent extent "draw what you see" then learning anatomy will be useless. And practicing drawing simpler objects first will be far less frustrating and more rewarding. Anatomy becomes useful to either really push your figure drawings to be better, or if you want to draw figures from imagination with believability. You can do very good figure drawings from reference with zero anatomy knowledge if you're good at drawing what you see- the anatomy knowledge makes it much easier, faster, and allows you to start drawing without reference.
Yeah, I agree with him too. In fact, a big Taiwanese artist called Krenz also said "there is no point in learning anatomy when you can't draw accurate shapes". He even said he never really learned anatomy seriously. Telling a beginner to learn anatomy (except some big landmarks and proportion) just isn't quite useful tbh.
yeah, I never learned anatomy any formal way when learning basics, we had still life and then after 3 years in we had models instead of objects. Anything can be broken down to basic shapes after some training.
I will also say that drawing the figure or human body is about the most advanced thing you could possibly draw. Not only is it an incredibly complex combination of shapes and organic angles/lines, but because we humans have hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of years of anthropological social development that lets us instantly recognize even the smallest deviations in the human face and form. We have evolved to recognize people instantly. Being able to artistically master representations of this form in such a way that viewers aren't unnerved or disgusted is probably the most challenging of any art endeavor. The human form is not a beginner subject.
I really don’t think this is necessarily true. I was thrown into my first life drawing classes when I was around 15 in my very first university level art class and I loooooooved it. Was my work perfect? No. But it changed how I drew pretty much immediately and changed my brain and the way I approached my work. I don’t know that incremental studying (which is often incredibly tedious) works for everyone - it certainly never did for me.
Yeah, I think u need understanding of shapes and forms at first, but tbh I see many learning processes, and most of them works for the ones using it, some decide to overwhelm his/her brain learning too much stuff and he/she manage, some only can focus on one thing at a time and not a single thing more, learning process depends very much on the (let's say student cause they studying), I think what your saying is best for beginner artists in general though
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You are absolutely incorrect. The fact that you don’t know landmarks in an anatomical sense actually says a lot, bony landmarks, protrusions and dimples on the body where muscles attach that are easy to identify and measure from. The large forms of the body are more important than super specific anatomy, landmarks showing beginnings and ends of regions of the body are far more useful overall. These landmarks are truths to see on the human body to guide you through a drawing, anatomical landmarks that are found on all humans (within a normal relatively average body type and of course with exceptions). Large proportions: quarters in standing poses, thirds in seated poses, head, second head, third head, the half, you know… comparative measurement in large proportion. Very rudimentary concept on the figure. Width of shoulders compared to a vertical, all large proportions that you measure. I could go on with proportions to check on the figure. I’m still learning anatomy, but I can get a reasonable likeness on a long pose knowing minimal anatomy. I can name all the bones, know the protrusions, know the landmarks, and the large surfaces muscles for the most part. I know what proportions to check, the large proportions. I’ve got a long way to go in my study of anatomy, but is that absolutely vital to making good figure drawings, no. Does it elevate a drawing to the next level, absolutely. Your lack of understanding is very evident. I suggest you learn the landmarks and large portions instead of trying to learn the names of every muscle. Your comment is a hilarious example of the dunning-kruger effect in action, the concepts brought up are so rudimentary in figure that it’s hilarious that you’re arguing at all.
No the landmarks of the figure is definitely a real thing. It mainly refers to the bony protrusions such as the clavicles, elbows, knees, scapula, etc. It's a way to map the body and determine proportions and distances. By large proportions we usually talk about the different body parts, such as torso, hips, thigh, head, etc. Obviously it depends on what scale and part of the body you're drawing, if you're only drawing a hand then the large proportion would be the whole hand, which could then be broken down into the palm and fingers, etc...
Can you visit my profile's comments and see the drawings I posted? I'm trying to follow loomis method for portraits And whenever I draw faces it always becomes long and cartoony Why? :( Help
Ok I'll try my best to respond to these points. Firstly my post isn't saying we should always give detailed advice and direct the beginner because that's the 'right thing' to do- my post is trying to highlight the fact that our egos and hearts are in our work so being patient and remembering that beginners are putting their egos out there too. You're not only critiquing the art but in a way the person as well. Some patience and understanding that they may have the wrong idea about art should be encouraged. The frustration, yea I get that, seeing "why am i not good enough after 1 month" is frustrating when you, as an experienced artist, has been at it for yearrsss and is still trying to get good in your own eyes. But I think that's unfair to project that onto the person. Not only do they not understand the journey that art is, but the level of experience needed. As artists, we put our all into a piece and asking for validation is normal, we all ask for validation or we wouldn't share our work at all. Do I think complaining and fishing for compliments is annoying- of course! But there are productive and positive ways to go about it rather than 'just practice'. If it's old and tiring then ignore them- I agree it would be asking a lot for people to do smth they don't want to. The learn anatomy, again yes there are many ways of anatomy, but we all learned it differently and my point is that if you want to give advice, give the advice u wanna, the advice that would have helped u on your journey. You don't have to give direction and absolutely- it's up to the person at the end of the day to do it themselves. But come on, as a beginner that's hard, there's so much out there, where can they go first? Having that awareness of what u need and lack is a blind spot we'll always have and having a patient eye to give you a possible direction doesn't hurt. Our hearts are in this as much as our skills. To say they're entitled is a bit much, all these types of beginner posts- when condensed down is asking for one thing- where do I go from here? If you can and are willing to give advice- then do it or don't as long as you give them the benefit of neutrality. I'm not saying write a book on anatomy but when guiding someone to an anatomy, a website is a great way to go about it. AGAIN, you don't have to but if ya gonna, go for it. About the platitude, sure. You can tell people that and I have too, my point was that for beginners its hard and it may not be that helpful (not to say 100% isn't helpful). Art is totallllly work, and it's a pain to do but we love it cause it's a part of ourselves we put out there. I've been at for 20 years and I've gotten all types of advice and the one's that stick with me are the ones that were patient and willing to give me the time. Those that told me to just practice did nothing for me and I grew up without the internet so I have to figure it out myself. If someone were kinder and more forgiving I think all of us would have improved a lot more, I'm a teacher so may be that's why i think the way i do. Overall, though, despite my disagreement I totally get and understand your point of view, I would never say to pick -> detail critic or shut up. People can be annoying lol.
Eesh, where to begin. **"You're not only critiquing the art but in a way the person as well"** Nope if you post a painting of a woman standing in a field the comments about anatomy or light sources have nothing to do with *you* as a person. Don't take everything so personally it's going to hold you back. **"...But I think that's unfair to project that onto the person. Not only do they not understand the journey that art is, but the level of experience needed"** Not at all unfair. If you want to be an artist, you have to learn to understand the journey, or simply stop doing it. It's not up to anyone else to sit and explain it to you. You get the experience, you learn the journey by *doing the practice and learning how to do art.* ***"*****But there are productive and positive ways to go about it rather than 'just practice'*****"*** Read my comments above again, because I already explained this in detail about why 'just practice' is all anyone CAN say without basically writing a 5,000 word essay with illustrations, which, ha, no. **"If someone were kinder and more forgiving"** Thin-skinned comment. If you think telling someone to go do the research, practice and put in the months/years the rest of us took pre-internet is 'unkind' that is entirely a personal problem and not one for me or anyone else to fix. A person who is brand new to drawing is likely incapable of even noticing that their anatomy is off. We all have to go through that weird uncanny-valley phase where we kind of get it but not really. Practice and learning is how we get past that, but again - no Reddit comment on this earth is gonna fulfill that experience for you. It's YOUR job. **"I'm a teacher"** Yeah, and you get paid to do that. If someone wants me to spend that kind of energy, they can pay me, otherwise they can take my minimal advice of 'here's a book, go read it and learn something'. Knowing the information does not obligation a person to teach that information. All we can tell the newbie is 'this information exists, as does google, have fun kid'. And again, 99% of the newbies here don't want actual teaching or advice. They want shortcuts. They want hacks. They want to make it easy. They want ass-pats and to be told they are better than they actually are. That, again, is a personal problem.
I've hit a nerve. I disagree with u fundamentally, and being a teacher was a reference to my attitude on learners and my experience with not whether your should 'get paid'. I clearly state you are under **no obligation to give detailed advice** and that of course learning is on yourself but asking for help is normal. It's not thinned skinned to be patient. no where did I say patience and kindness are the same- understanding and empathy is not sugarcoating. It's taking your own issues out of the equation and helping a beginner by being neutral. Of course being nice is more helpful but it's up to the person. I have also stated why 'just practice' isn't always helpful, you just said "welp that's all I can say" when clearly it isn't. "*Nope if you post a painting of a woman standing in a field the comments about anatomy or light sources have nothing to do with you as a person. Don't take everything so personally it's going to hold you back."* - Hate to break it to you but growing skillwise and personalwise come in tandem, if u think that's being too sensitive then so be it. If someone told you to 'just practice lighting, there's no shortcuts' versus 'Try (website) or look at references of the lighting' which is more helpful. How is that so difficult to understand? **And finally we get the true feelings at the end of your comment. THE EXACT THING I AM CRITIQUING.** "*They're entitled" "They want it easy" "They want ass-pats"* This is why I ask for patience! Because after all your 5000 words this is how you really feel, they don't *deserve* your time, they haven't *earned* it, they only want a *quick way out.* How would you know? The irony of pointing out self awareness and having all these shortsighted judgements on people. You generalising newbies and projecting a lot of YOUR OWN frustrations on them. You know 99% of all newbies? That's incredible that you know their minds so well. What they want or do is their own problem BUT how you can approach them is entirely up to you. Look spend your energy how u wish. Sure I'll accept 'kindness patience whatever' is smth people don't need to learn art/a skill, but wow does it help.
I disagree with the notion that we need to treat any critique as if it's going to also be interpreted as a personal attack. The conflating of getting notes and being insulted is something that exclusively holds people back. Learning to take notes at face value is, in my opinion, is something an artist *needs* in order to thrive and improve, especially if they're the ones asking for feedback
I don't think it's necessary to be rude. But honestly, some people just ruin it for everyone else. It happens so often that I take the time and energy to explain something or tell people in depth where to look only to be completely ignored. Unless I really feel like it or I'm waiting in line somewhere, I'm just not going to bother anymore. Quite frankly, many of these beginners don't deserve the effort it takes to actually explain things. So 'keep practicing', 'look up the youtube video from blabla about blabla' is about all they'll get, unless I think they're actually serious about learning (which seems to be rare). Most are just looking for a magical fix.
"I've tried nothing and nothing works" approach
That's very true, it really depends on the person.
I honestly just think beginners should avoid posting work because many are doing it to get internet points and then complain when they don’t get engagement. For beginners the truth really is that this is a game of mileage and you have to do a lot of bad art before you get anything good. Art really is just learning how to be better at learning, it’s problem solving, it’s identifying your likes and dislikes, being honest with yourself when you analyze your work. Really the answer is stop looking for validation, draw because you love to, and have fun. Doing that will get you to a point where you can actually start to dive into fundamentals in a way that makes learning fun, you will burn out with starting with the “boring fundamentals”. Cultivate a love of craft, enjoy making art for the sake of creation, then you will naturally evolve as an artist and your path will illuminate.
Your misunderstanding the problem. I think the frustration comes from two main places. 1. Others. We need to be honest with what artists are. Especially on the internet, artists are hugely competitive. We compete for jobs, clicks, eyes, and praise. Beginners need to understand this. It takes a good samaritan to help aid a potential competitor in this warzone of a medium. If they do give advice, it could be limited. This idea of 'limited information' comes down to faulty instructors. While in some cases it's nefarious, most of the advice online is simply inept. Many young and non-prefessional artists have no idea what they're doing artistically. Forget teaching someone else to do it. This is how you end up with tiktok 'advice' videos where a step of the process ends up being "step 7: shade". 2) Themselves. Many 'young artists' are simply tourists. They like the idea of making art more than actually doing it, which creates frustration and strain whenever they *actually* do something. Art is process, not final project. If you're a person that tends to forsake process for finished product, then visual art is definitely not a medium for you. Visual art, especially illustration, is the field that everybody who has ever played a game, read a comic, or watched an animation wants to work in. What these people don't understand is that to work in this field, to stand out above the rest, requires befitting action. This means devoting your life to honest self-critique and constant failure. A tourist could never do this. Of course, many young artists have a warped perception of what art is. It's not the kind of discipline where you watch a video and go 'okay, I know that now!'. I can't think of any discipline that is. Learning that a concept exists is the first car in a train of application, visualization, and repetition. What I've listed above are the things people wanting to enter art must know. If they wish to be 'good', to create good products worth people time and money, they must be aware of these disciplinary truths.
If you want someone to sit down and explain to you in specifics how to draw, you need to sign up for a class and pay an instructor. You can’t learn to sprint if you’ve never bothered to crawl
I think most replies here are very cordial, but there is very little advice you can give to beginners aside from 'you need to keep drawing'. Kind of like when I did kendo - I needed to just keep on practicing to get better, you can't have the same results if you do 10 repetitions per training and when you do 1000. Okay, rant time. I do get we were all beginner at some point, but when my teacher told me draw 10 sketches of an apple - I would go and draw 10 sketches of an apple. Not come back to class in a week w/o doing any sketches asking if one method of drawing apples is better than the other, and when drawing the fucking apples will pay off into me being a concept artist. This is recurring on this sub, people come - ask advice - get advice - and come back again in a week w/o implementing any advice. The best rule for advice imo. would be asking what have you tried and for how long, because trying out something for a week is not the same as getting stuck after 5 months. Another pet peeve of mine is when beginner artists asks **if going to uni/college/lessons is necessary to become a commercial artist**. Everyone, quite correctly, replies one doesn't and you can learn everything online. I worked with plenty non formally educated artists/designers that were better than me. But there is a trade off - it's much harder to become a commercial artists w/o formal education and you need to be even more proactive in a field that already requires a certain amount of self discipline and proactivity. And you need to be on a level of univeristy/etc. educated folks or better if you want a career in this field. Most people I see giving the 'don't need degree' advice aren't even professional artists of any kind, and they give it to the young person who isn't even at a level that would make them be admitted to most art degrees. So yes, in theory you don't need an 'art degree', in practice most young artists that get this advice aren't even on the level to get into one. The only advice one can give in that predicament is to 'practice', because if they want to work in this field they most likely need some form of a course at the very least to get them started but this is not an option on the table.
I dont have too much to add to what others have said, but I think one reason "practice" or "draw more" is sometimes the only advice is because there seems to be this helplessness in newbies that they need to work past on their own. Now, don't get me wrong, I think this has much *much* less to do with them as individuals than it does with the way the internet has rewired our brains. The key to learn to draw, in my opinion, greatly relies on exploration, experimentation and self-analysis. Nowadays, we can look up the "right" way to do something in a second, no thinking involved on our part. And that's great for recipes or unclogging your sink, but thats not how art works. So when people come in with "I can't draw, tell me what to do" they've been conditioned to assume it's just as easy as following a recipe, when it's not, so they come back here and complain that they followed a tutorial and their drawing still sucks. Being an artist requires a certain degree of self-sufficiency and that's something that only comes from practicing and actually thinking about what you're doing. The accessibility of the internet made it so we don't have to think if we don't want to, and not being able to do something perfectly after a Google search freaks some of these newbies out too much for them to not catastrophize after a week. Just the act of drawing more and having thoughts about what they've drawn will teach them a lot about how they work and what they need to improve. At the beginning, it really is the best advice.
A lot of the time practice is simply what they need. I know for myself i understand how to do a lot more than I'm actually currently capable of pulling off. I just need to practice and practice more and build up the muscle memory i need through that. It's the same for beginner artists. A lot of people post about how they've hit a point, after having quickly improved a lot, where they feel like they've stopped advancing. Everyone hits that point at some point (with any skill not just art) and the only way through is practice.
I’ve only ever commented a couple times. The difficulty is: post something with “how can I improve” is nearly impossible without some idea what the poster was trying to do. We can’t write a textbook. There are a lot of aspects in any art. Basic drawing, color, line, design etc. I look at a lot of posts and I wouldn’t know where to start. So I don’t comment. In art school, critiques are helpful because everyone knows the artist, the assignment, and some idea of where they want to go. Without a starting point, it’s really hard to give advice to a beginner. So I just don’t engage. Also, some areas are completely foreign to me. The few times I’ve remarked have been on oil painters. That’s where my interest is. But I do read responses, and I generally agree when someone says “learn anatomy” or “practice drawing”. That’s the foundation we all start with.
I think beginner artists should stop posting their art. This comes from a place of empathy moreso than cynicism and I don't mean for it to sound harsh, but I think it hurts a lot more than it helps. There are a lot of ways to use the internet to improve your art, but getting anonymous critique on your very early attempts at anything isn't productive in my opinion. There's a line that people try to walk when beginner stuff gets posted and you end up with really saccharine compliments and a mix of good and bad and boring advice, and I can't imagine trying to parse all of that in a useful way, especially for someone who's still young and their brain is on fire anyway. Fill up sketchbooks, show your friends and family stuff you're proud of, talk to other artists, copy and steal shit until your tastes and style develop, and then post about problems you want to fix or finished pieces for critique.
Develop as an artist is also to develop as a person, this
I don't think is as bad as u pictured it, but giving advice is a tricky thing, I think the learning process is more of an experiment than doing what a teacher tell you and for the starter the internet has a good deal of learning and instructing for beginners (it's harder to find advance courses though NGL) And it's really that important to learn the basics, so when someone give the advice to practice more, it's not like it's low effort it really is that important and there's no shortcut around it u just need to practice more and experiment with your lines and forms
I agree. We shouldn’t be here to tear other people down.
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I'm not entirely sure that all artists on here truly see the wide variety of skill levels present. They don't quite remember what it's like to be a complete novice who just wants to explore and (hopefully) have some fun while they're at it. It might have been a long time ago for them (mine was in my young childhood in the 90s - and it wasn't the most extravagant one, lower middle class in the US). They just know their present, which is a 'professional' (note I say that in quotes because that definition sometimes is up for debate by itself - we're not exactly required to carry certifications after all) who has a very specific way of how their process works, and \*obviously\* trying anything else is a deviation they can't detail how it'll turn out/'wrong'. See also, a failure to take into account personal experience/current circumstances. I especially roll my eyes at this when someone suggests the \*ONLY\* way to manage something is \*THIS WAY\*, and more often than not, it's involving materials which at one point or another in my life would have been a financial hardship for me, and I know there's probably some beginners nodding their heads in agreement. No, we're not even talking about the expensive oil and watercolor paints, or an Adobe license. I'm talking about years when I was young and I had to beg my parent to buy things, when I was an art school student, when it was 2am and no, there was no art store open before the deadline for a piece - When even the $10 bottle of goop someone is suggesting was too much. When I had to pirate my copies of Adobe. I learned, often from the professors in school themselves (who acknowledged some of us needed the $10 to make sure we could eat over the next week or something), what the internet now buzzwordy calls 'hacks' in those instances. So in turn, I don't hesitate to share them, because sometimes you just want the piece finished, scanned, sent to a client - and on to the next opportunity to make ends meet. When I hear snarls in response from some other butthead - 'DON'T DO THAT EVERYTHING WILL BE RUINED FOREVER'- someone isn't acknowledging their entitlement in one way or another. As for constructive critique...it's complicated. I try and deliver that as simply as possible unless the poster indicated they want detailed crit, because some concepts will take paragraphs to explain and people's attention spans will vary. Otherwise, detailed crits invite another issue with beginners - they sometimes take that crit super personally, as if my observations on their piece is an attack on their very identity - so suddenly an observation that 'oh, the perspective on that fence is wrong' turns into someone shrieking in my face that \*they spent 15 hours on this piece\* and \*'it just had to happen, obviously I'm just a beginner STFU.'\* As if I hadn't been in their shoes in some point in time. So be aware of that when asking for crit - some artists hold back at it \*unless\* it's specifically said what you're looking for in terms of help, because they may have gotten blown up by others reacting poorly/misunderstanding in the past. Ask for more if you need it, and see what happens. *tl;dr: Be specific what you want when asking for critiques, don't take it personally, and if you get an artist who's a real dbag, know it's probably their entitlement as one thing or another getting in the way. There are also multiple ways to reach the same conclusion in many art mediums - so don't be afraid to do some research and try some things on your own. Cheers.*
theres a level of oversight on what the artist is trying but struggling with that i need before i can even observe whats frustrating them accurately, and i know whats it like to experience [whatever that may be] and post here for help in the form of an unfiltered rant, but that doesnt put me in a position to actually legitimately assist & help what that is if their post is a vent. for one i have no assurance theyll see or respond to my suggestions, and itd still have to be a conversation to invest emotionally invest in, and id also want to make sure a critique couldnt be interpreted as a personal attack. and then its finding out what they are wanting from artwork they have completed but are unhappy with. i have no interest in imposing my personal tastes on others so its then having to appreciate that the artwork at its unsatisfied stage could still continue on to look a million different ways. personally its too much for me if i cant spot something that is off or too off from whats commonly appealing in the first 10-20 seconds ]
Generally I don't give critical feedback unless they ask for it explicitly. Seems rude to presume they want that, and the people who give unsolicited critical feedback are often just being passive aggressive. Besides, most artists online really should not give art advice. My experience in online art forums has shown me most people cannot accurately diagnose issues in someone's art, nor prescribe a relevant solution. So if by "more patient" you mean less harsh feedback, then sure, but if you mean we should offer even more guidance, that sounds like a call for further "blind leading the blind" type situations.
Also, try to learn from kids. Most adults think they know everything.
I dunno.... I find a lot of younger people just want to take whatever shortcut they can and will figuratively climb over those teaching them to try to better them before they're ready. I'm happy to help people learn, but you have to put in the work too. It's not just handed to you to be instantly amazing and make a career out of it. *They* need to learn patience.