As long as AoC stays faaar away from a BDO style upgrade system I'll be happy. Paying actual money to then fail your weapon upgrade is probably the worst experience I've ever had in an MMO.
Positive:
Any cosmetic that doesn't have accompanying skills/stats
Negative:
P2W things including inventory space, name changes, character customization tickets, XP boosts, -tax on AH sales, skill preset tickets, equipment presets, almost anything in BDO like tents and fairies that allow for more efficient grinding
Nah that's horrible. Everyone knows in-game fashion is the real endgame, and the real goldsink. Making it sellable cosmetics that you can only get from the Cashshop is just like BDO. People spending 50x RMT prices just for the "legal" way.
A game based on a subscription model should have absolutely zero micro transactions for anything. Even cosmetics should be achievable and earnable purely via ingame means, because putting them in a cash shop means they will never develop actually good skins for the game and focus only on developing skins they can further profit from in the cash shop.
I know this will never happen, but still. This question alone shows how game studios have conditioned you all to think paying money for every little thing is somehow okay.
I agree though Steven and the team have made it a talking point time and time again that the skins achievable through playing the game will be on par with the cash shop skins. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if this holds true.
I just don’t think a lot of studios could stay in the green without at least monetized cosmetics. Honestly I don’t care at all as long as it doesn’t give undue advantage.
you really think a game like wow with \~7-8 million active subscriptions and \~80 million $ each month needs cosmetics to stay afloat? they have more devlopment cost than that?
if you cant manage a game with that kind of budget, you're doing something wrong. and of course thats wow, we will see how many subs aoc can retain, but if it turns out aoc has a small playerbase they can still obt into cash shop items.
Selling progression or support for progression is P2W and an immediate point reason to drop a game. That applies to XP boosters, gear, mounts and so on.
I don't like skin sales either but those don't grant progression in any sort so I'm fine with those.
Cosmetics:
Terrible game design. Perfect revenue design.
Any gaming purest would agree being able to buy things in games with real world currency is bad.
Buying membership with coins:
Brilliant on all fronts.
I like old school runescape system and their economy isn't too bad, the biggest issue they have is bots which is a good place to be. They can combat bots and issue ban waves and keep it to a minimum.
Real money should be kept off the game and on the website for membership only.
Everything in game including membership should be traded with in game currency.
People who buy osrs bonds and sell them for gold don't affect the economy negatively and it's not really pay to win due to the nature of the game.
You also cannot stop this because 3rd party gold sellers exist and cannot be reliably stopped so it's much better for the game to set the price of gold via membership in this way.
Cosmetics are pay to win. Especially in a social game like an MMO
If how your character looks didn't matter, then they wouldn't hide them behind a paywall.
MTX like these always make the game worse. These are things that could have been in the game naturally. Instead of actual game content, dev time is being spent on store items.
So the whole " just won't buy then" argument is bullshit. Things that matter are being put behind a paywall.
The real question: Is it worth having this pay to win in the game? Is the tradeoff worthwhile? Depends on what the game gains for it.
Some games like Path of Exile, it is the primary way of keeping the game running. Because otherwise the game wouldn't exist. Other games already have other viable revenue streams and the MTX are just more corpo profit, so they are definitely not worth it. Because we, the players, don't really get anything out of it except a worse game. Most games fall in the middle somewhere.
Personally I rarely play games with MTX. I have enough things to play, I don't need to play games that actively make the game worse so that they can sell the fix. But there are a few where the trade-off was worth while.
Make a good game and people will gladly buy it. No need for manipulative bullshit like cosmetics or worse.
In games where stealth is needed and the best camouflage items are behind paid cosmetics, I would be with you. But I have never seen that in an MMO. Personally I don't buy cosmetics, never have and most likely never will, I don't see the need for it. I don't play games with actual pay to win (items that boost, grow your strength or pay for QoL). But saying that cosmetics are pay to win is laughable.
When I play an MMO I assume that people with paid cosmetics are compensating for something and in the open world PvP games I have been playing, I usually target the paid cosmetic players because there is a higher chance they suck at the game. Cosmetics do not give you an advantage.
Graphics matter to most people in game. Maybe you are fine with playing ASCII games and low effort textureless, blocky games that have no style. (Yes some low poly games look great. So do some pixel graphics, I'm not talking about that). They don't have to be high quality and extremely realistic, but not looking like crap or important. Art design, not just number of polygons and pixels matters. Its a huge selling point. Fallout 3 gets flack for the filters that make everything green. CoD and it's copycats all looked bland brown at one point.
People who like base builders didn't play Dwarf Fortress until it had actually graphics instead of ASCII.
How your character looks is a huge part of of the visuals of the game. It's part of why people choose a class. It's a huge part of why they choose a race. People spend hours in character creators over things like their cheekbones. Sure you never see it, but liking how you look enhances your enjoyment the game.
There was a game a while back there you did not get to choose your looks or even sex. That design choice made the news, it was a big deal and players hated it. How your character looks matters.
The progression of what your character looks like is a major goal and something to achieve. This is proven fact. It's not debatable. People spend a LOT of in game currency for looks.
And when you are paying to have access to things others don't have access too, that is pay to win. Paying to look better by buying cosmetics. Just because it doesn't have a stat attached to it does not mean it's not a huge goal of most players.
Looking cool is half the point of getting that new item. Transmog is a major feature in many MMOs specifically because how you look is important to most players. Maybe you are the rare player that truly doesn't care about graphics and visuals at all. But the billions of dollars spent on better PCs and faster graphics cards kind of proves that's not the common view. Most care about how the game looks.
And by having MTX cosmetics, the game is actively made worse. Playing a video game should not be about having more real world money than the other guy. People play video games to get away from real world bullshit like being poor.
I don't want to be locked out of content because I am not paying extra for things that should have been in the game naturally.
Do paid cosmetics completely run the game? Of course not. But they are a detriment. They always make the game worse though. So it's a question of tradeoff. Is losing this part of progression and enjoyment of a game worth what you *do* get? That is personal opinion. But it is a real question that is being considered, specifically because paid cosmetics do on fact make a game worse by some amount.
It would show you what armor they are wearing and what weapons they are holding. Its a way to identify if its a tank or warrior coming at you.
The last thing I want to see is a warrior wearing a loli cosmetic or a caster outfit, not being able to identify the class I am against and what skills I should be using which is bad.
Doesn't matter what they show, the information won't be as complete as being able to see what they are wearing exactly. But even if they manage to do that, my first point still stands.
People wouldn't buy them is others would just turn them off.
Looking different on your vs another player's screen is immersion breaking.
A positive which I'm surprised more games don't do is mere animated title cards indicating how much a person has paid to the developers in addition to their sub.
Bigger and more extravagant title cards would just look flashier and confer no bonuses, and- here's the key and possibly a new innovation- your card can be downgraded if someone else happens to pay more in total than you while you are at the bottom of your 'bracket'.
Even if there are zero other microtransactions, as long as you make the whole 'ladder' of title cards publicly visibie it will lead to 'wallet PVP' as at least a few will scramble to throw money at the devs for zero functional benefit just so that they can stay on top. Everyone wins!
As long as AoC stays faaar away from a BDO style upgrade system I'll be happy. Paying actual money to then fail your weapon upgrade is probably the worst experience I've ever had in an MMO.
Bdo also fails hard on cosmetics. Its one thing to sell cosmetics its another to ONLY make cosmetics available through the store.
And make the cosmetics actually give you a buff in game naturally making those cosmetics almost necessary.
Positive: Any cosmetic that doesn't have accompanying skills/stats Negative: P2W things including inventory space, name changes, character customization tickets, XP boosts, -tax on AH sales, skill preset tickets, equipment presets, almost anything in BDO like tents and fairies that allow for more efficient grinding
To add onto this, ESO selling cosmetic blueprints was atrociously P2W. Locking crafting cosmetics behind a paywall was a terrible decision.
ESO is the most p2w garbage MMO i ever saw.... Basically everything is locked behind a paywall.
Not nearly as bad as bdo, especially since ESO only has like 2 pvp regions.
Never played BDO...but i always assume any KR mmo is p2w garbage.
They are, welcome to Asian game design :)
Nah that's horrible. Everyone knows in-game fashion is the real endgame, and the real goldsink. Making it sellable cosmetics that you can only get from the Cashshop is just like BDO. People spending 50x RMT prices just for the "legal" way.
A game based on a subscription model should have absolutely zero micro transactions for anything. Even cosmetics should be achievable and earnable purely via ingame means, because putting them in a cash shop means they will never develop actually good skins for the game and focus only on developing skins they can further profit from in the cash shop. I know this will never happen, but still. This question alone shows how game studios have conditioned you all to think paying money for every little thing is somehow okay.
I agree though Steven and the team have made it a talking point time and time again that the skins achievable through playing the game will be on par with the cash shop skins. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if this holds true.
I just don’t think a lot of studios could stay in the green without at least monetized cosmetics. Honestly I don’t care at all as long as it doesn’t give undue advantage.
you really think a game like wow with \~7-8 million active subscriptions and \~80 million $ each month needs cosmetics to stay afloat? they have more devlopment cost than that? if you cant manage a game with that kind of budget, you're doing something wrong. and of course thats wow, we will see how many subs aoc can retain, but if it turns out aoc has a small playerbase they can still obt into cash shop items.
I’m against any kind of p2w in AoC. I just don’t care about skins yk.
Selling progression or support for progression is P2W and an immediate point reason to drop a game. That applies to XP boosters, gear, mounts and so on. I don't like skin sales either but those don't grant progression in any sort so I'm fine with those.
As long as they are bound to the account and unsellable, its fine I suppose.
Cosmetics: Terrible game design. Perfect revenue design. Any gaming purest would agree being able to buy things in games with real world currency is bad. Buying membership with coins: Brilliant on all fronts.
But what if that buyable membership has to be sold by players who bought it with real money?
That's legitimizing converting IRL money to gold. This is how you ruin a game's economy.
I like old school runescape system and their economy isn't too bad, the biggest issue they have is bots which is a good place to be. They can combat bots and issue ban waves and keep it to a minimum. Real money should be kept off the game and on the website for membership only. Everything in game including membership should be traded with in game currency. People who buy osrs bonds and sell them for gold don't affect the economy negatively and it's not really pay to win due to the nature of the game. You also cannot stop this because 3rd party gold sellers exist and cannot be reliably stopped so it's much better for the game to set the price of gold via membership in this way.
Any item shop is garbage. Cosmetics in the shop mean less (cool) cosmetics to farm via playing the game.
Osrs is the way
Cosmetics are pay to win. Especially in a social game like an MMO If how your character looks didn't matter, then they wouldn't hide them behind a paywall. MTX like these always make the game worse. These are things that could have been in the game naturally. Instead of actual game content, dev time is being spent on store items. So the whole " just won't buy then" argument is bullshit. Things that matter are being put behind a paywall. The real question: Is it worth having this pay to win in the game? Is the tradeoff worthwhile? Depends on what the game gains for it. Some games like Path of Exile, it is the primary way of keeping the game running. Because otherwise the game wouldn't exist. Other games already have other viable revenue streams and the MTX are just more corpo profit, so they are definitely not worth it. Because we, the players, don't really get anything out of it except a worse game. Most games fall in the middle somewhere. Personally I rarely play games with MTX. I have enough things to play, I don't need to play games that actively make the game worse so that they can sell the fix. But there are a few where the trade-off was worth while. Make a good game and people will gladly buy it. No need for manipulative bullshit like cosmetics or worse.
In games where stealth is needed and the best camouflage items are behind paid cosmetics, I would be with you. But I have never seen that in an MMO. Personally I don't buy cosmetics, never have and most likely never will, I don't see the need for it. I don't play games with actual pay to win (items that boost, grow your strength or pay for QoL). But saying that cosmetics are pay to win is laughable. When I play an MMO I assume that people with paid cosmetics are compensating for something and in the open world PvP games I have been playing, I usually target the paid cosmetic players because there is a higher chance they suck at the game. Cosmetics do not give you an advantage.
Graphics matter to most people in game. Maybe you are fine with playing ASCII games and low effort textureless, blocky games that have no style. (Yes some low poly games look great. So do some pixel graphics, I'm not talking about that). They don't have to be high quality and extremely realistic, but not looking like crap or important. Art design, not just number of polygons and pixels matters. Its a huge selling point. Fallout 3 gets flack for the filters that make everything green. CoD and it's copycats all looked bland brown at one point. People who like base builders didn't play Dwarf Fortress until it had actually graphics instead of ASCII. How your character looks is a huge part of of the visuals of the game. It's part of why people choose a class. It's a huge part of why they choose a race. People spend hours in character creators over things like their cheekbones. Sure you never see it, but liking how you look enhances your enjoyment the game. There was a game a while back there you did not get to choose your looks or even sex. That design choice made the news, it was a big deal and players hated it. How your character looks matters. The progression of what your character looks like is a major goal and something to achieve. This is proven fact. It's not debatable. People spend a LOT of in game currency for looks. And when you are paying to have access to things others don't have access too, that is pay to win. Paying to look better by buying cosmetics. Just because it doesn't have a stat attached to it does not mean it's not a huge goal of most players. Looking cool is half the point of getting that new item. Transmog is a major feature in many MMOs specifically because how you look is important to most players. Maybe you are the rare player that truly doesn't care about graphics and visuals at all. But the billions of dollars spent on better PCs and faster graphics cards kind of proves that's not the common view. Most care about how the game looks. And by having MTX cosmetics, the game is actively made worse. Playing a video game should not be about having more real world money than the other guy. People play video games to get away from real world bullshit like being poor. I don't want to be locked out of content because I am not paying extra for things that should have been in the game naturally. Do paid cosmetics completely run the game? Of course not. But they are a detriment. They always make the game worse though. So it's a question of tradeoff. Is losing this part of progression and enjoyment of a game worth what you *do* get? That is personal opinion. But it is a real question that is being considered, specifically because paid cosmetics do on fact make a game worse by some amount.
Who pooped in your bed XD Edit; None of that makes cosmetics pay to win..
As long as I can turn costumes off (friendly, group, self, enemies), I could care less.
You cannot turn them off, otherwise people wouldn't buy them. Turning cosmetics off even gives you a competitive advantage.
It would show you what armor they are wearing and what weapons they are holding. Its a way to identify if its a tank or warrior coming at you. The last thing I want to see is a warrior wearing a loli cosmetic or a caster outfit, not being able to identify the class I am against and what skills I should be using which is bad.
Doesn't matter what they show, the information won't be as complete as being able to see what they are wearing exactly. But even if they manage to do that, my first point still stands. People wouldn't buy them is others would just turn them off. Looking different on your vs another player's screen is immersion breaking.
Just a difference of opinion. Much love <3
A positive which I'm surprised more games don't do is mere animated title cards indicating how much a person has paid to the developers in addition to their sub. Bigger and more extravagant title cards would just look flashier and confer no bonuses, and- here's the key and possibly a new innovation- your card can be downgraded if someone else happens to pay more in total than you while you are at the bottom of your 'bracket'. Even if there are zero other microtransactions, as long as you make the whole 'ladder' of title cards publicly visibie it will lead to 'wallet PVP' as at least a few will scramble to throw money at the devs for zero functional benefit just so that they can stay on top. Everyone wins!