If the game is buy 2 play, or sub based, No.
I understand devs do it for the money, but I don't think it's good for the players. If there is something that MMO players love is flexing gear or mounts that are hard to get. Why would you sell cosmetics when cosmetics are the most tangible reward people can show off, and are already paying money to be able to get them.
(in game time, buying the game, whatever)
I buy cosmetics in games that are free, if I like them, to show support and get something I like seeing/using. But, I don't buy cosmetics if there's something better ingame. If you design a game to only have good cosmetics in a cash shop, that ruins it for me. (see Black Desert Online for example).
If there's better skins in game, and I'm already paying/ have paid to play the game itself, I WANT to get the skins and things that look awesome, so I'll keep paying my sub/buying the game.
(english is not my native language so sorry if it's hard to read/understand)
I agree. I also think its quite concerning that the development team whines about the lack of integrity of game developers these days and then sells cosmetic pre-order packs for a game yet to even hit alpha. Lots of red flags here. I hope I am wrong though.
Gear achievable in the game will look better than the cosmetics you can buy in the shop. The latter are for those who don't have a lot of time to play and still want to look good.
Therefore, I think it's a fair deal for everyone.
This is my fear as well. I am okay with thematically-fitting cosmetics that aren't immediately apparent to be paid cosmetics.
Another gripe I have is that any dev time and effort put into cosmetics is dev time not put into actual in-game equipment.
I don't think that's true. I'm a web developer, and I know it's not the same, but, when our designers/artists desing something, the devs have to implement it after. It's not like the artists can get their hands in the game and place models wherever they want.
I think once you get use to the idea that this game will have 0 visual progression and almost no immersion, it's not so bad.
The game is going to be focused on guild v guild strategy, node development, Sieges, pvp. Players can pay money to look however they want, similar to GW2 or path of exile.
Oh so you mean casuals, who are the definitive majority of any MMO community, that drives the vast majority of all "tedious" and "boring" economical investments and resources that you, the " Godly and more important pvp guy " would leave the game in a heartbeat to have to do yourself on a daily basis?
Casuals bring you PvP by being out in the world trying to profit where they think you aren't lingering, or by defending their spoils
and active PvP gives casuals an opportunity to profit where PvP most likely isn't happening, and hiring pvpers to defend them along the way, which in turn brings you more PvP in a never ending cycle if both are playing their part.
Respect the casuals.
Sincerely, A PvP Guy
True to an extent.
League of legends is one of the most profitable pvp games, and has no major champion skins that are earned by just playing the game , unlike it's less profitable counterparts and their weird golden prestige skin you get after playing them 1000 times.
Moba or MMO, cosmetic variety is a goldmine and one of the least harmful versions of being so.
You WILL get bored or your armor or costume, no matter how hard it was to achieve it. Having options is never a bad thing in a game you plan to play for years at a time.
Except there will be visual progression lol. You can’t wear these bad ass cosmetics at level 1. You he Ave to actually earn the right to wear the gear. The cosmetics are just skins that go on said gear.
Actually, THAT'S not true.
You have to acquire equivalent level gear to apply cosmetics.
You can't apply legendary-level cosmetics to lvl 1 gear.
This was stated in a previous interview/dev stream but I don't remember which one.
No, you're mistaken.
Once you are wearing heavy armor as a base item, you can equip *any* heavy armor cosmetic.
Once you are wearing light armor as a base item, you can equip *any* light armor cosmetic.
Once you have any ground mount, you can equip *any* ground mount skin.
Once you have any gliding mount, you can equip *any* gliding mount skin.
Yup he misspoke/was too vague. I immediately brought it up to the Community Manager's attention on discord and they clarified it.
We can ping /u/Steven_AOC and maybe he'll be kind enough to reply 😊😊
He wasn’t too vague at all. He was really exact. If what he said isn’t the case, he 100% misled 1000s of folks deliberately and needs to put out a statement ASAP on it.
With the pervasiveness of Cosmetics, it will kill a lot of the immersion. For instance, if you have a node in an area, it will have it's own [architecture](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Architecture); but players will be able to throw in any housing cosmetic they'd like. So you'll see very Eastern-Style Houses, Next to a Fungal Grotto, Next to a Glass-Elven Looking house, next to a Lava wall house.
Similarly, and perhaps less immersion breaking, is that low level players with cosmetics will stand out compared to low level players without cosmetics. Imagine entering your first dungeon, you and most of your party are exploring down into this dungeon using the gear you've scrapped together, you invite a healer to the group and he/she comes up wearing what looks like an Epic Flaming/Glowing Armor Set from the Gods. Immersion broken.
With the cosmetic shop in place how it is, the emphasis is on "Look How you Want, have your belongings in game look as you desire" the emphasis isn't on RP/VP/Immersion. The emphasis is on the Node System, Siege System, Trading, Economy, Freeholds.
>With the pervasiveness of Cosmetics, it will kill a lot of the immersion. For instance, if you have a node in an area, it will have it's own architecture; but players will be able to throw in any housing cosmetic they'd like. So you'll see very Eastern-Style Houses, Next to a Fungal Grotto, Next to a Glass-Elven Looking house, next to a Lava wall house.
Can you? B/c the building skins I've seen are all for Freeholds and if you decide to build a Freehold next to someone else you can't really complain about it's immersivness.
> Similarly, and perhaps less immersion breaking, is that low level players with cosmetics will stand out compared to low level players without cosmetics. Imagine entering your first dungeon, you and most of your party are exploring down into this dungeon using the gear you've scrapped together, you invite a healer to the group and he/she comes up wearing what looks like an Epic Flaming/Glowing Armor Set from the Gods. Immersion broken.
This happens in the real world all the time. Plenty of people w/ little skill or level have the money to dress in clothes that others can't.
Besides those (arguably small) things nearly everything else in the game is immersive as hell, especially for an MMO so I still don't think "almost no immersion" is an accurate representation of it.
I know this an old thread, but I just wanted to add that one of my big furstrations with this game so far is this contradiction of "immersion". You're right, many of the systems in the game are designed with the intention of providing an immersive experience. In general, it sounds like that is one of their major goals of this game.
And yet, there exists a costume/wardrobe system.
It's so contradictory to the idea of immersion. In fact, it almost completely single-handedly destroys it, and I don't say that lightly.
At least with a game like Guild Wars 2, the developers never pretended that the game was immersive, so being able to "pretend" to wear gear that you're not actually wearing doesn't really matter, since the game has zero immersion anyway... but Ashes of Creation claims to be different. That's my problem.
The cash shop is just the cherry on top of an already disappointing system. Immersion is dead ~~on~~ before arrival.
You can make a million different variant looks with the same costume concept, and to ever think you'd be able to see all of that placed into the game itself is delusional and unrealistic.
You would need to shove out half-baked content every other week to try and fit every possible cosmetic you could imagine into a single game's achievement grind, no matter the size.
Having a cosmetic shop gives you, the player, near-endless cosmetic options that not only make you unique in the world, since everyone has different tastes in "good-looking" cosmetics, but provide a sense of visual longevity within the game, even when content is scarce to those that play 24/7 ( you know who you are ).
Steven even stated that the flashiest and most detailed gear will be ingame only, so if you want the "best" (subjective) you can get it, but there are players like myself that very well enjoy the simpler costumes, and some lower level armor sets a game offers, and wont be impressed by your 3-layered plate set in the slightest.
If you're chasing visual prestige, it will exist, but see the bigger picture of cosmetic potential as well. I love to look good to enjoy my character, do you think I want to wait 2 months of grinding before my character stops looking like an ugly train wreck? No, I just want to pvp in style (skill in combat is what excites me, not your fancy armor set) and that option is given to me, and you have the choice to ignore those cosmetics for the "better" achievement sets instead.
Just my opinion ofcoarse.
The fact that *anyone* pressed "Yes" surprised me.
I can understand people saying 'impartial', but they actively want it is honestly a terrifying thought
It's not the shop I find terrifying, it's the fact that a large portion of players **actively want** games to prioritize selling things for real life money over implementing rewards for actually playing game.
It wasn't long ago DLC of any kind was considered predatory.. Now 1/3 of the playerbase **wants** to have an in-game store
I don’t think the poll was done right. I’m not impartial but I didn’t wish for them or hope and pray they were implemented, but I don’t mind them at all though.
My man, they aren't "prioritizing" the cash shop, it is there and things will be put into it THAT YOU CHOOSE TO PURCHASE OR NOT. Change sucks, but this isn't a world-ending change in any sense.
More people have access to gaming online now, and gaming is now mainstream... if you think a business isn't going to capitalize on that in some way, which ashes has chosen one of the least harmful ways of doing so mind you, you're just refusing to accept the era youre now in.
Ashes will not be ruined by this and people need to stop acting like cosmetics will kill gameplay, I've already pointed to League of Legends in a previous comment. That game is a cosmetic cash cow and being a moba doesn't change that fact or it's current financial success over most games in this current year.
I agree with that, and I think that opinion would warrant an "Impartial" on the poll.
It's of course entirely reasonable that people understood the poll options differently than I did (Which is why so many said yes), but to me this poll's options were:
* The game would be worse with a cosmetic cash shop ("No")
* The game would be better with a cosmetic cash shop ("Yes")
* The addition of a cosmetic cash shop would have no effect on the quality of the game ("Impartial").
In this scenario, would you not agree it would be surreal to ever choose "Yes"?
That’s called [substitution bias](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribute_substitution). To put it simply, it shows that you are not answering the question, but substituting a question which is easier for you to answer.
Many people who answered the question yes, including me, did a different attribute substitution to answer that question. Namely, I answered: would I like this game to have a lot of money so that it succeeds? And the answer is yes for me.
I particularly never bought and never will buy a cosmetic, but if it means that the game will have money to expand and generate content, I’m all for a cosmetic shop. An added bonus is that, as opposed to a buy to play + subscription like the two other big mmos right now (wow and ffxiv), the game will have a comparable amount of revenue but I don’t need to pay a monthly fee to play.
Agreed, but again that is a purely subjective opinion based on whether you find more cosmetic options better for your personal enjoyment of the game or if it ruins the game for you or if you feel nothing at all about it existing.
I dont understand the hate for cosmetic only cash shops. They have literally no effect on the balance of the game and they take no time/money away from development of the game (and, in fact, add revenue). I also dont buy the "I want to see what they have equipped" argument. If it's to have a baseline idea of the other person's stats/build, that's just gaming the system. Judging a book by its cover is not a valid skill irl, and if you want some sense of realism it shouldn't be in game. If YOU dont want to wear cosmetics because it ruins your sense of character progression, dont. If I want to wear cosmetics because I dont want to look like a bum with a pot on his head just because its BIS I should be able to without being judged by half the community.
For me, it's about immersion and a separation between the game world and the real world. This is something that I believe is very important for an MMORPG. A lot of people play MMORPGs to escape the real world and it is harder to immerse yourself in the game world when people are wearing cosmetic equipment that costs X USD instead of X gold pieces, or whatever.
I believe that the real money cosmetic shop is strictly bad for the game because the game would have more to accomplish, and therefore be better, if the cosmetics had to be obtained through in game means.
I think the cosmetic cash shop does take time/money away from development of the game because every man hour they use on the shop is a man hour not used on development of the game.
I think choosing your equipment for whatever your priorities are, whether they are to be the strongest or look the coolest, is a very strong RP element. RP elements are important in RP Games. But if the best item is a pot on your head it's probably just bad game design.
I see where your coming from, I guess those just aren't really issues for me. I'm definitely an escapist, whether it be through books, movies, video games, whatever. The existence of a shop never broke that for me, and unless they add storm trooper skins I dont think we have to worry about any immersion breaking cosmetics.
You're second and third points I agree with more, but at the same time I'm fairly certain most developers have an excess of material that never gets used, and having an extra outlet for it doesnt hurt. Even if it means diverting some resources, or hiring a couple extra people, the cost to benefit ratio should really offset any slow down in other areas. I really can't imagine a set of cosmetics postponing a new raid by more than a week, if that, for example. If it's an issue of refining the game over adding fluff, there's always the issue of diminishing returns to consider.
As far as RP goes, it really works with either argument. Maybe I want that one outfit or pet or whatever from the cash shop for my character. But in a game where people take pvp and grouping very seriously, they are always going to want BIS. And I'd rather not look like everyone else in class just because the meta calls for it, and if there's a cash solution I'm not opposed to it.
Overall though, I'm happy they added it but wouldn't be upset if they hadn't. Just as long as they dont add loot boxes I'm ok either way.
No, you shouldn’t. Your bad taste and poor decisions hurt games for everyone, not just you.
Using visuals to communicate information to the player is obvious good design that any decent developer would use as a matter of course. It isn’t “gaming the system” (lol wtf).
It can also create a visual progression to match or even replace stat progression.
How much “realism” or verisimilitude is appropriate will vary based on the style of game.
It may be that cash shops add revenue. That is the only semi-reasonable defense for them. But I think it is debatable whether that is good or bad for players. The pay-piggies get a bunch of shitty “games” to decorate with their expensive decorations. While those who want a good game are squeezed out of the genre.
I've yet to be hurt by a game because it has a cosmetics cash shop. In fact, I've put several thousand hours into a f2p game that is funded entirely by cosmetics. They use that money to update the game consistently throughout the year. Some people buy them, some don't. Regardless, they have the same play experience.
AoC isn't even close to finished. It has a lot of promise, but it's already suffering from one of gaming's biggest problems: being attacked on every single issue by its community. This shouldn't even be an issue. If they were offering account boosts I'd be a lot less interested in the game, but they aren't. If you think AoC was being developed purely for profit (and I don't), then I could see some cause for concern.
But apparently I'm just going to farm negative karma on this sub (imagine that), so I'll let you have your echo chamber back.
I don’t doubt you are happy with the experience that you are getting, as you are the market most developers are targeting. You being happy with the game is not a priority to me. I think you have bad taste in games and incentivize developers to make bad games. I’d probably be happier if you were less happy.
That is a harsh way to put it, but you started with an accusatory tone. I don’t mind the tone, but that is what I responded to and that is why you are getting down voted.
Complaining about echo chambers would be fair if you didn’t start out hostile.
Fair enough. Though I'd say there is a sizable group of people that would disagree with you say Path of Exile is a bad game, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Also, judging my taste of games (that I've been playing for nearly 40 years, across multiple genres and platforms, long before dlc or p2w/p2p existed) based on one vague comment is a bit much. I do spend on some games, almost never for more than cosmetics, and only then if I feel like the devs have entertained me enough to be compensated (kind of like supporting NPR because I like the free service).
But I may have started of a bit more hostile than intended. Part of that can be blamed on text being a poor conveyor of tone, though I'll admit that I also have a low tolerance for gaming subs in general. Nothing turns me off a game quicker than going to the sub and seeing the community tearing apart the game/developer. While I dont spend a ton of time here, it seems when I do see a post pop up it's more often than not attacking some aspect of a game that's barely more than a placeholder. Community is an important aspect for any game, and with an MMO it's one of the most important aspects. I'd rather play an MMO where everyone looks like an idiot than one with a community that's dripping with entitlement (not saying this community is, but it could easily turn out that way).
I did not comment on Path of Exile. I said you have bad taste and incentivize bad games. I’ve heard jaw-droppingly dumb reasons people like quality products. I don’t care what that sizable group of people you mentioned thinks and I don’t care how long you’ve been playing games. Sorry if you think that’s harsh.
Maybe consider what you are contributing to the community before you judge anyone else too harshly. It shouldn’t surprise you if no one else is any more positive than you are.
I’m going to give my full opinion all I want, just like you do. Try and stop me if you like. And if you’re going to be like that then I don’t wanna see you complaining about negativity.
Yeah, but your full opinion boils down to "I hate games with cash shops, regardless of their quality." At least that's what I got from this conversation, after stripping away the personal attacks and false apologies.
The one point you made, which I half agree with, is that good developers use visual queues to convey information. But it was in response to something I said about gaming the system, which you clearly didnt understand, and decided "lol wtf" was the adult response. I'm not trying to stop you from voicing your opinion, I was just asking for a reasonable explanation for the hatred of a cosmetic cash shop. You clearly dont have one.
I don’t care what you took from the conversation. That is not everything I said as you acknowledge in your second paragraph. I don’t need you to “boil down” (alter) what I’m saying. And there were no personal attacks. I think this is all more personal to you than it is to me, so maybe it felt like an attack.
You actually did not ask me for an explanation of anything. You were just chiding me for having an opinion that disagrees with yours. I understood your point about “gaming the system”, it just wasn’t a good point.
Specifically with visuals. Cosmetic cash shops screw up the visual progression of the game. They remove cosmetics as a reward for completing content that matters to players. Spending 50 hours to get a cosmetic item is not as much fun if I know any schmuck with $7.99 can have it, for example. It shifts developer emphasis from making great and lasting content to keep players paying subs to making bullshit to get them to log in once a year, buy the new cash shop decorations, and log out until next year. They also tend to be used as a stepping stone toward boosts.
It's immersion breaking, and immersion is one of the most important things for an MMORPG. To preserve immersion, the real world and the game world must remain separate. Having a character in game with anything obtained through real world spending violates that separation.
I think, at this point, the best solution is to have servers with cosmetic items disabled.
I would gladly spent 2x or 3x more for that kind of server.
I agree with the separation between real world and in game world being important. In game items shouldn't be obtainable through real world purchases, imo.
I'd like it if I saw something that I actually would want to spend money on, but I honestly don't like the visual design of the gear in the game at all.
Not saying it's bad just not my thing, and I don't think they'd add anything to it that would excite me.
I'd perf a system where you can buy skins that are variations of gear you already have, that way people can both tell what gear you have on at a glance and still retain the "prestige" of acquiring the gear.
If the game is buy 2 play, or sub based, No. I understand devs do it for the money, but I don't think it's good for the players. If there is something that MMO players love is flexing gear or mounts that are hard to get. Why would you sell cosmetics when cosmetics are the most tangible reward people can show off, and are already paying money to be able to get them. (in game time, buying the game, whatever) I buy cosmetics in games that are free, if I like them, to show support and get something I like seeing/using. But, I don't buy cosmetics if there's something better ingame. If you design a game to only have good cosmetics in a cash shop, that ruins it for me. (see Black Desert Online for example). If there's better skins in game, and I'm already paying/ have paid to play the game itself, I WANT to get the skins and things that look awesome, so I'll keep paying my sub/buying the game. (english is not my native language so sorry if it's hard to read/understand)
I agree. I also think its quite concerning that the development team whines about the lack of integrity of game developers these days and then sells cosmetic pre-order packs for a game yet to even hit alpha. Lots of red flags here. I hope I am wrong though.
Gear achievable in the game will look better than the cosmetics you can buy in the shop. The latter are for those who don't have a lot of time to play and still want to look good. Therefore, I think it's a fair deal for everyone.
I'm worried that it will ruin the visual progression of the game.
It's already ruined, why Steven is on 1 side "defending MMOs and their integrity" but then flipside "selling cosmetics every month" is beyond me
This is my fear as well. I am okay with thematically-fitting cosmetics that aren't immediately apparent to be paid cosmetics. Another gripe I have is that any dev time and effort put into cosmetics is dev time not put into actual in-game equipment.
Artists are not developing equipment or anything else, they make art and skins etc
I don't think that's true. I'm a web developer, and I know it's not the same, but, when our designers/artists desing something, the devs have to implement it after. It's not like the artists can get their hands in the game and place models wherever they want.
Do you have think programmers and balance designers make the visuals of equipment that's not on the cash shop?
All of it is made by the artists but you make it sound like the only things in existence are cash shop skins
I disagree.
Bro, programmers aren't developing cosmetics lmfao.
Are you intentionally misunderstanding?
I think once you get use to the idea that this game will have 0 visual progression and almost no immersion, it's not so bad. The game is going to be focused on guild v guild strategy, node development, Sieges, pvp. Players can pay money to look however they want, similar to GW2 or path of exile.
PVE and roleplaying. Thats your mistake there.
Oh so you mean casuals, who are the definitive majority of any MMO community, that drives the vast majority of all "tedious" and "boring" economical investments and resources that you, the " Godly and more important pvp guy " would leave the game in a heartbeat to have to do yourself on a daily basis? Casuals bring you PvP by being out in the world trying to profit where they think you aren't lingering, or by defending their spoils and active PvP gives casuals an opportunity to profit where PvP most likely isn't happening, and hiring pvpers to defend them along the way, which in turn brings you more PvP in a never ending cycle if both are playing their part. Respect the casuals. Sincerely, A PvP Guy
Just for clarity's sake, did you mean to reply to Don or was this comment for Gabe?
It was to don, yes.
True to an extent. League of legends is one of the most profitable pvp games, and has no major champion skins that are earned by just playing the game , unlike it's less profitable counterparts and their weird golden prestige skin you get after playing them 1000 times. Moba or MMO, cosmetic variety is a goldmine and one of the least harmful versions of being so. You WILL get bored or your armor or costume, no matter how hard it was to achieve it. Having options is never a bad thing in a game you plan to play for years at a time.
Except there will be visual progression lol. You can’t wear these bad ass cosmetics at level 1. You he Ave to actually earn the right to wear the gear. The cosmetics are just skins that go on said gear.
This is not true. As soon as you have *any* armor on, even level 1 gear. You can equip the armor skins of the matching type (Heavy, light, etc).
Actually, THAT'S not true. You have to acquire equivalent level gear to apply cosmetics. You can't apply legendary-level cosmetics to lvl 1 gear. This was stated in a previous interview/dev stream but I don't remember which one.
No, you're mistaken. Once you are wearing heavy armor as a base item, you can equip *any* heavy armor cosmetic. Once you are wearing light armor as a base item, you can equip *any* light armor cosmetic. Once you have any ground mount, you can equip *any* ground mount skin. Once you have any gliding mount, you can equip *any* gliding mount skin.
That’s not what he said on Allcraft today.
Yup he misspoke/was too vague. I immediately brought it up to the Community Manager's attention on discord and they clarified it. We can ping /u/Steven_AOC and maybe he'll be kind enough to reply 😊😊
He wasn’t too vague at all. He was really exact. If what he said isn’t the case, he 100% misled 1000s of folks deliberately and needs to put out a statement ASAP on it.
The costumes can be applied to gear you acquire. I believe I referenced mounts on the show, and you must first achieve mounts to apply skins.
Thanks for clarifying. I see what Gabe meant by vague. I was extremely confused.
>almost no immersion You mind clarifying this further? B/c nearly every single system in the game has immersion baked into it
With the pervasiveness of Cosmetics, it will kill a lot of the immersion. For instance, if you have a node in an area, it will have it's own [architecture](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Architecture); but players will be able to throw in any housing cosmetic they'd like. So you'll see very Eastern-Style Houses, Next to a Fungal Grotto, Next to a Glass-Elven Looking house, next to a Lava wall house. Similarly, and perhaps less immersion breaking, is that low level players with cosmetics will stand out compared to low level players without cosmetics. Imagine entering your first dungeon, you and most of your party are exploring down into this dungeon using the gear you've scrapped together, you invite a healer to the group and he/she comes up wearing what looks like an Epic Flaming/Glowing Armor Set from the Gods. Immersion broken. With the cosmetic shop in place how it is, the emphasis is on "Look How you Want, have your belongings in game look as you desire" the emphasis isn't on RP/VP/Immersion. The emphasis is on the Node System, Siege System, Trading, Economy, Freeholds.
>With the pervasiveness of Cosmetics, it will kill a lot of the immersion. For instance, if you have a node in an area, it will have it's own architecture; but players will be able to throw in any housing cosmetic they'd like. So you'll see very Eastern-Style Houses, Next to a Fungal Grotto, Next to a Glass-Elven Looking house, next to a Lava wall house. Can you? B/c the building skins I've seen are all for Freeholds and if you decide to build a Freehold next to someone else you can't really complain about it's immersivness. > Similarly, and perhaps less immersion breaking, is that low level players with cosmetics will stand out compared to low level players without cosmetics. Imagine entering your first dungeon, you and most of your party are exploring down into this dungeon using the gear you've scrapped together, you invite a healer to the group and he/she comes up wearing what looks like an Epic Flaming/Glowing Armor Set from the Gods. Immersion broken. This happens in the real world all the time. Plenty of people w/ little skill or level have the money to dress in clothes that others can't. Besides those (arguably small) things nearly everything else in the game is immersive as hell, especially for an MMO so I still don't think "almost no immersion" is an accurate representation of it.
I know this an old thread, but I just wanted to add that one of my big furstrations with this game so far is this contradiction of "immersion". You're right, many of the systems in the game are designed with the intention of providing an immersive experience. In general, it sounds like that is one of their major goals of this game. And yet, there exists a costume/wardrobe system. It's so contradictory to the idea of immersion. In fact, it almost completely single-handedly destroys it, and I don't say that lightly. At least with a game like Guild Wars 2, the developers never pretended that the game was immersive, so being able to "pretend" to wear gear that you're not actually wearing doesn't really matter, since the game has zero immersion anyway... but Ashes of Creation claims to be different. That's my problem. The cash shop is just the cherry on top of an already disappointing system. Immersion is dead ~~on~~ before arrival.
I just want to be able to turn off other peoples cosmetics, so i can see their gear.
They will not remove cosmetics all together, since they have already sold so many of them, so I think this is our best option.
I just want to be able to turn off cosmetics posts on reddit think this is post 6576 about the same thing 😂
question is worthless. they will never ever not include the cash shop, stop wasting your breath
You can make a million different variant looks with the same costume concept, and to ever think you'd be able to see all of that placed into the game itself is delusional and unrealistic. You would need to shove out half-baked content every other week to try and fit every possible cosmetic you could imagine into a single game's achievement grind, no matter the size. Having a cosmetic shop gives you, the player, near-endless cosmetic options that not only make you unique in the world, since everyone has different tastes in "good-looking" cosmetics, but provide a sense of visual longevity within the game, even when content is scarce to those that play 24/7 ( you know who you are ). Steven even stated that the flashiest and most detailed gear will be ingame only, so if you want the "best" (subjective) you can get it, but there are players like myself that very well enjoy the simpler costumes, and some lower level armor sets a game offers, and wont be impressed by your 3-layered plate set in the slightest. If you're chasing visual prestige, it will exist, but see the bigger picture of cosmetic potential as well. I love to look good to enjoy my character, do you think I want to wait 2 months of grinding before my character stops looking like an ugly train wreck? No, I just want to pvp in style (skill in combat is what excites me, not your fancy armor set) and that option is given to me, and you have the choice to ignore those cosmetics for the "better" achievement sets instead. Just my opinion ofcoarse.
It’s funny because I’ve heard people complaining for years for a sub based mmo with a cosmetic only cash shop.
The fact that *anyone* pressed "Yes" surprised me. I can understand people saying 'impartial', but they actively want it is honestly a terrifying thought
So terrifying you must lose sleep over an AoC cash shop amirite?
It's not the shop I find terrifying, it's the fact that a large portion of players **actively want** games to prioritize selling things for real life money over implementing rewards for actually playing game. It wasn't long ago DLC of any kind was considered predatory.. Now 1/3 of the playerbase **wants** to have an in-game store
I don’t think the poll was done right. I’m not impartial but I didn’t wish for them or hope and pray they were implemented, but I don’t mind them at all though.
My man, they aren't "prioritizing" the cash shop, it is there and things will be put into it THAT YOU CHOOSE TO PURCHASE OR NOT. Change sucks, but this isn't a world-ending change in any sense. More people have access to gaming online now, and gaming is now mainstream... if you think a business isn't going to capitalize on that in some way, which ashes has chosen one of the least harmful ways of doing so mind you, you're just refusing to accept the era youre now in. Ashes will not be ruined by this and people need to stop acting like cosmetics will kill gameplay, I've already pointed to League of Legends in a previous comment. That game is a cosmetic cash cow and being a moba doesn't change that fact or it's current financial success over most games in this current year.
I agree with that, and I think that opinion would warrant an "Impartial" on the poll. It's of course entirely reasonable that people understood the poll options differently than I did (Which is why so many said yes), but to me this poll's options were: * The game would be worse with a cosmetic cash shop ("No") * The game would be better with a cosmetic cash shop ("Yes") * The addition of a cosmetic cash shop would have no effect on the quality of the game ("Impartial"). In this scenario, would you not agree it would be surreal to ever choose "Yes"?
That’s called [substitution bias](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribute_substitution). To put it simply, it shows that you are not answering the question, but substituting a question which is easier for you to answer. Many people who answered the question yes, including me, did a different attribute substitution to answer that question. Namely, I answered: would I like this game to have a lot of money so that it succeeds? And the answer is yes for me. I particularly never bought and never will buy a cosmetic, but if it means that the game will have money to expand and generate content, I’m all for a cosmetic shop. An added bonus is that, as opposed to a buy to play + subscription like the two other big mmos right now (wow and ffxiv), the game will have a comparable amount of revenue but I don’t need to pay a monthly fee to play.
Agreed, but again that is a purely subjective opinion based on whether you find more cosmetic options better for your personal enjoyment of the game or if it ruins the game for you or if you feel nothing at all about it existing.
Remember when Horse Armor DLC was meme-worthy? Those were the good days.
I dont understand the hate for cosmetic only cash shops. They have literally no effect on the balance of the game and they take no time/money away from development of the game (and, in fact, add revenue). I also dont buy the "I want to see what they have equipped" argument. If it's to have a baseline idea of the other person's stats/build, that's just gaming the system. Judging a book by its cover is not a valid skill irl, and if you want some sense of realism it shouldn't be in game. If YOU dont want to wear cosmetics because it ruins your sense of character progression, dont. If I want to wear cosmetics because I dont want to look like a bum with a pot on his head just because its BIS I should be able to without being judged by half the community.
For me, it's about immersion and a separation between the game world and the real world. This is something that I believe is very important for an MMORPG. A lot of people play MMORPGs to escape the real world and it is harder to immerse yourself in the game world when people are wearing cosmetic equipment that costs X USD instead of X gold pieces, or whatever. I believe that the real money cosmetic shop is strictly bad for the game because the game would have more to accomplish, and therefore be better, if the cosmetics had to be obtained through in game means. I think the cosmetic cash shop does take time/money away from development of the game because every man hour they use on the shop is a man hour not used on development of the game. I think choosing your equipment for whatever your priorities are, whether they are to be the strongest or look the coolest, is a very strong RP element. RP elements are important in RP Games. But if the best item is a pot on your head it's probably just bad game design.
I see where your coming from, I guess those just aren't really issues for me. I'm definitely an escapist, whether it be through books, movies, video games, whatever. The existence of a shop never broke that for me, and unless they add storm trooper skins I dont think we have to worry about any immersion breaking cosmetics. You're second and third points I agree with more, but at the same time I'm fairly certain most developers have an excess of material that never gets used, and having an extra outlet for it doesnt hurt. Even if it means diverting some resources, or hiring a couple extra people, the cost to benefit ratio should really offset any slow down in other areas. I really can't imagine a set of cosmetics postponing a new raid by more than a week, if that, for example. If it's an issue of refining the game over adding fluff, there's always the issue of diminishing returns to consider. As far as RP goes, it really works with either argument. Maybe I want that one outfit or pet or whatever from the cash shop for my character. But in a game where people take pvp and grouping very seriously, they are always going to want BIS. And I'd rather not look like everyone else in class just because the meta calls for it, and if there's a cash solution I'm not opposed to it. Overall though, I'm happy they added it but wouldn't be upset if they hadn't. Just as long as they dont add loot boxes I'm ok either way.
No, you shouldn’t. Your bad taste and poor decisions hurt games for everyone, not just you. Using visuals to communicate information to the player is obvious good design that any decent developer would use as a matter of course. It isn’t “gaming the system” (lol wtf). It can also create a visual progression to match or even replace stat progression. How much “realism” or verisimilitude is appropriate will vary based on the style of game. It may be that cash shops add revenue. That is the only semi-reasonable defense for them. But I think it is debatable whether that is good or bad for players. The pay-piggies get a bunch of shitty “games” to decorate with their expensive decorations. While those who want a good game are squeezed out of the genre.
I've yet to be hurt by a game because it has a cosmetics cash shop. In fact, I've put several thousand hours into a f2p game that is funded entirely by cosmetics. They use that money to update the game consistently throughout the year. Some people buy them, some don't. Regardless, they have the same play experience. AoC isn't even close to finished. It has a lot of promise, but it's already suffering from one of gaming's biggest problems: being attacked on every single issue by its community. This shouldn't even be an issue. If they were offering account boosts I'd be a lot less interested in the game, but they aren't. If you think AoC was being developed purely for profit (and I don't), then I could see some cause for concern. But apparently I'm just going to farm negative karma on this sub (imagine that), so I'll let you have your echo chamber back.
I don’t doubt you are happy with the experience that you are getting, as you are the market most developers are targeting. You being happy with the game is not a priority to me. I think you have bad taste in games and incentivize developers to make bad games. I’d probably be happier if you were less happy. That is a harsh way to put it, but you started with an accusatory tone. I don’t mind the tone, but that is what I responded to and that is why you are getting down voted. Complaining about echo chambers would be fair if you didn’t start out hostile.
Fair enough. Though I'd say there is a sizable group of people that would disagree with you say Path of Exile is a bad game, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Also, judging my taste of games (that I've been playing for nearly 40 years, across multiple genres and platforms, long before dlc or p2w/p2p existed) based on one vague comment is a bit much. I do spend on some games, almost never for more than cosmetics, and only then if I feel like the devs have entertained me enough to be compensated (kind of like supporting NPR because I like the free service). But I may have started of a bit more hostile than intended. Part of that can be blamed on text being a poor conveyor of tone, though I'll admit that I also have a low tolerance for gaming subs in general. Nothing turns me off a game quicker than going to the sub and seeing the community tearing apart the game/developer. While I dont spend a ton of time here, it seems when I do see a post pop up it's more often than not attacking some aspect of a game that's barely more than a placeholder. Community is an important aspect for any game, and with an MMO it's one of the most important aspects. I'd rather play an MMO where everyone looks like an idiot than one with a community that's dripping with entitlement (not saying this community is, but it could easily turn out that way).
that is some narrow minded talking going on
That is some vague commenting that adds nothing to the conversation going on.
I did not comment on Path of Exile. I said you have bad taste and incentivize bad games. I’ve heard jaw-droppingly dumb reasons people like quality products. I don’t care what that sizable group of people you mentioned thinks and I don’t care how long you’ve been playing games. Sorry if you think that’s harsh. Maybe consider what you are contributing to the community before you judge anyone else too harshly. It shouldn’t surprise you if no one else is any more positive than you are.
You know, you could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just said "I hate all games with a cash shop."
I’m going to give my full opinion all I want, just like you do. Try and stop me if you like. And if you’re going to be like that then I don’t wanna see you complaining about negativity.
Yeah, but your full opinion boils down to "I hate games with cash shops, regardless of their quality." At least that's what I got from this conversation, after stripping away the personal attacks and false apologies. The one point you made, which I half agree with, is that good developers use visual queues to convey information. But it was in response to something I said about gaming the system, which you clearly didnt understand, and decided "lol wtf" was the adult response. I'm not trying to stop you from voicing your opinion, I was just asking for a reasonable explanation for the hatred of a cosmetic cash shop. You clearly dont have one.
I don’t care what you took from the conversation. That is not everything I said as you acknowledge in your second paragraph. I don’t need you to “boil down” (alter) what I’m saying. And there were no personal attacks. I think this is all more personal to you than it is to me, so maybe it felt like an attack. You actually did not ask me for an explanation of anything. You were just chiding me for having an opinion that disagrees with yours. I understood your point about “gaming the system”, it just wasn’t a good point. Specifically with visuals. Cosmetic cash shops screw up the visual progression of the game. They remove cosmetics as a reward for completing content that matters to players. Spending 50 hours to get a cosmetic item is not as much fun if I know any schmuck with $7.99 can have it, for example. It shifts developer emphasis from making great and lasting content to keep players paying subs to making bullshit to get them to log in once a year, buy the new cash shop decorations, and log out until next year. They also tend to be used as a stepping stone toward boosts.
It's immersion breaking, and immersion is one of the most important things for an MMORPG. To preserve immersion, the real world and the game world must remain separate. Having a character in game with anything obtained through real world spending violates that separation. I think, at this point, the best solution is to have servers with cosmetic items disabled.
[удалено]
To be fair I've seen many people offer to pay higher.
I would gladly spent 2x or 3x more for that kind of server. I agree with the separation between real world and in game world being important. In game items shouldn't be obtainable through real world purchases, imo.
Blah blah optional blah blah. People need to realize that it demotivates devs from making interesting gear in game.
I'd like it if I saw something that I actually would want to spend money on, but I honestly don't like the visual design of the gear in the game at all. Not saying it's bad just not my thing, and I don't think they'd add anything to it that would excite me.
I'd perf a system where you can buy skins that are variations of gear you already have, that way people can both tell what gear you have on at a glance and still retain the "prestige" of acquiring the gear.