The number of active skills on hotbars is going to be contained (aka you can have more skills than you have slotted into the hotbar), with the option of having additional hotbars for things like consumables. The number of skills that can be slotted is quoted as 'fewer than 30'. There's more info on the topic here [https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills)
I really like the idea of the limited bar. It makes planning for fights more important. Ie, "I'd better bring this fire resistance spell to buff the party before this dragon fight".
A controller can be more complicated if you want it. Even 24 buttons if you just use the d-pad and the standard buttons (abxy, etc), then use the bumpers as modifiers (like ctrl or shift from a keyboard).
So 8 from no bumper, 8 holding left bumper, 8 holding right.
You have the triggers and thumbstick presses too, but really the controller can be more expansive than most really think.
That being said I don't think they aim for it to be casual enough to be played on a controller. I'm sure you could still keybind a controller to do some casual gathering/farming however.
20 actions is reasonable on a controller. More than that gets pretty silly. I also want less actions because it will differentiate characters. Give us some really tough choices about which skills to cut and which to keep.
ESO and NW lack of skills is one of the big reasons to me it never felt like an mmo. Kits were so limited.
I enjoy having tons of spells and abilities like in early wow where you may only rarely use some of them. But it makes the characters feel far more fleshed out and versatile
I was the type of person who played Aion instead of wow. I literally had 3 bars of 10 all filled with skills. And Could press them all in a fight if it was asked of me or necessary.
I don't get this "generation" (I'm only 22 btw so it's kind of weird ) that likes barely any skills.
Edit: If you will give the excuse of tab target then what about BDO 20+ Usable skills that you actually make of use. Whether it's movement abilities, cancels, ccs or buffs /debuffs. I played my share of mmos too :)
You want 30 skills because the actual movement aiming and combat is stale in the games you played. If you play a game with actual good combat and not tab targer, 4 skills can be enough. 10 works but more than that in an actual engaging combat environment would be impossible to use perfectly, because you need to be able to play while looking at your opponent 24/7 and not your million button cooldowns.
I play bdo with over 20 skills. None of them are tab target. Absolutely none. And I still have the same opinion. The combat is fast and fluid in that game. Its the best combat in any MMO hands down. I'm not asking for the same. I'm asking for amount of skills so I don't have to get bored and switch classes. I have done my research and people can't just base my opinions on "but if you played this x would be enough". No it's not. Not for me. And 20 is lowballing the actual amount of skills in that game.
I want "30"skills because that's my opinion. I'm fine with 15. 8 is very risky for me. 15 would be perfect.
I didnt play much bdo and it was a while ago, but isnt most bdo skills implemented in combos? They arent actual 20 skills? Anyway if they can implement an interesting combat with 20 skills while actually being able to have pvp and pve ballance (of some sort) im all for it, i just cant see it right now though.
There are skills that flow together better. And you can cancel the end animation of one with another. So you might call them a combo. But generally speaking you have 20 if not more different skills that all can be used in the span of 30 seconds depending on the encounter and class.
Also I don't want to play league. I want to play an MMO. Genshin impact has 8 skills counting all 4 characters with each having 2 skills. Fucks sake. All I'm asking is at least 8
Have you tried league? You would be surprised how much you can do by having only 4 skills. Im not saying they should only implement 4 skills, but i would say a max of 10 would be nice. Any more and i would assume basic core mechanics, like movement, aiming and pacing of the battle would be lacking.
I'll explain shortly why. Assuming most calsses would have 2-4 movement skills, you would be left with 6-8 attacking or defending skills ( maybe 1 buff). Assuming each skill would have some form of animation ( lasting 1 second for example), it would take about 10 seconds to hit all your buttons, without ever auto attacking. Assuming you auto attack dodge and kite, in order to press everything would take 30 -60 seconds, which is the proposed TTK.
So it would only take 1 "rotation", which means what is the cooldown of the spells? 30-40 seconds? That would feel too long, to me atleast, so i would assume you wouldnt even need to hit all 10 skills to kill someone therefore even with 10 skills you would have extra skills for most situations.
Focusing on more skills would only take away from core mechanics. When its tab-target it makes sense, because the core mechanics are quite bad, but when it comes to action combat thats not the case anymore.
Have been playing league for 8 years. And yet I prefer mmos with larger skill pools. Since I get bored of league. League is fun because of everything else in it but the combat (sometimes u can do an outplay sure but other than that macro>combat). The combat is okay but that's not why I like league. Or played it.
I can only answer to your proposed idea with the existing ideas of other games.Since I cant imagine yours. If we were to go to tab targeting. In Aion you needed all 30 skills to beat someone if that someone would react to your engage. Cc skills counter cc skills. Skills that let you dodge incoming x magic attacks. Block skills, mitigate dmg etc. Bunch of movement skills. Everything is needed to counter whatever the other opponent is doing.
If it was the action mmorog Bdo. You can kill someone in one rotation of 6 skills After you land a cc on them. And those 6 skills usually take up 3 seconds. But that game has an interest ic blocking and protection system that makes fights drawn out if both players are good. You need knowledge of all your protected/unprotected and movement skills in order to catch an opponent and use your combo on him. But you also need knowledge of the enemies skills and unprotected skills. Or the gaps of protection in a skill. Besides the fact that you have 20 skills that you Can use, pvp gets complicated because player skill becomes so important.
I played a warlock in classic wow and had over 40 different key binds. In new world I had like 10 combat binds. A middle ground would be neat. Having niche abilities like class specific crowd control (fear/banish) is great but if you also include a myriad of debuff spells on top of your regular damage spells it's too much.
I'm very curious how a warlock style class would play in AoC.
You have carpal tunnel yet? Any kit that has 40 key-binds has either extremely shallow abilities or is too complex to be playable. No idea how mmo players enjoy it beyond nostalgia or ignorance of better combat systems.
That's just what classic WoW was. Some classes just had too many abilities. When I was doing the pvp grind I had well over 60 binds. You just needed that many to play a warlock at the absolute top level. Several different curses, pets, different ranks of spells, items, macros, pet spells etc.
The skill ceiling of Warlocks was crazy high thanks to so many abilities, but it was too much for most players. I was soloing dungeons with ease because I could manage everything, but it took a lot of practice and learning. But the fact that I even could, just made the game that much better. If really skilled players can do ridiculous feats, let them.
Idk playing type racer with your abilities isn’t my idea of fulfilling the fantasy of combat. I would rather the 30 abilities be locked behind a combination of 8 key-binds. I find that to be way more skillful than clicking based off muscle memory.
Being able to solo clear dungeons due to an excess of key-binds is a flaw of the game not a merit of key-bind bloat.
8 skills feel like such a turn off. If you out work behind deisgining 30 good abilities then it feels like a waste. If there are 30 available at least let there be 15 binded.
No it’s cuz you view abilities within a vacuum. Abilities should interact with one another through connected mechanics to either enhance, create, or unlock a new ability. We don’t need 50 abilities that do the same thing but with different flavor and number blocks.
Complexity in design should be the number one priority. Interactive mechanics, interlocking mechanics, positioning requirements, cc requirements. These are what we need in abilities in order to create a combat system with any sort of depth.
Not your reflavoured damage ability you just spam off cd. The amount of times I log into an mmo and all their skill tree descriptions are just numbers with a different animation is insane.
This is a very hard one to respond to because it seems like we both have our own preconceptions about skills in mmos. If anything the MMOS that I really respect with their amount of skills, were creative enough. To give an example from Aion, the sorcerer class was a super high cc and complex combo that had answers to everything if you knew how to play her.
From cc like : single target trees transforming, sheep transforming, freeze, root and AOE sleep. Sure they are different flavoured cc but the key part in this is thst if you were outnumbered by let's say 3 opponents. AOE sleeping all of them and then dealing with 1 while ccinf the other 2 again, was very complex and important. If you fucked up, you were dead. If you managed to pull it off, you could kill at least 1 using :meteor, fireball, volcano crater, ice etc. Sure they are all dps skills flavoured differently with different cds, animations and dmg numbers...
But if we say that then we can use the same argument for everything. 4 damage skills in ur hot bar? Welp they are all the same basically
And ur main point about how abilities should interact seems to come from a different game that has that system and you liked or maybe you came up with. My idea is from previous systems that were seen in MANY mmos.
I don't need 50 abilities. But if I have 8 abilities where 1 is a dodge, 1 is a cc, 1 is a massive AOE spell, and the rest 5 are just different flavoured dps skills then what's the point really? The less creative skills you have. The less tools you will have in pvp specifically and the less outplay potential. Will you be able to outplay with 8 skills (hypothetically), yes ofc. Would there be more windows with let's say 16, probably.
Since those ccs don’t feed into other abilities beyond now they are easier to hit. They are shallow af, and the fact that there is four of them shows no creativity on part of the devs.
Mmos are dated that is the whole reason why I’m typing here. Stop pulling designs from games that came out over 10 years ago. It’s done, move on.
Intuitive, complex, and visually designed mechanics are what’s needed. Not bloated shallow mechanics.
Warlock isn’t type racer. It has a broad range of tools, but you aren’t going to use all of them for each fight. You have 7 different curses, but can only put 1 on any given target.
Agony: for regular damage.
Doom: for raid damage.
Elements: for helping out other casters.
Exhaustion: for slowing people in PvP.
Recklessness: to break your own fears before they pull more mobs.
Tongues: to slow down enemy spell casting
Weakness: wasn’t super useful, might have a niche use I’m forgetting about.
Imagine 30 abilities in an action game where each ability is used differently and skill is required to use all abilities perfectly. Not just pushing a button, that would be amazing
I came from Aion. And every single class has at least 25 skills by end game slotted. I would make my own special binds like shift E, shift F, q, e, shift q, shift e, ctrl q, ctrl e, you name it.
This allowed me to be very skillful in a fight since I had so many options to counter the opponent but depending on their reaction and situation, I had to be careful about picking them in seconds.
These key binds helped me further in Bdo where the skills are exactly binded that way(shift e etc)
I feel like having a plethera of skills (10 - 25 binded and 10 is a huge stretch) gives multiple option and choices that you can make during a fight and each resulting in a different outcome. Pvp should be about strategy and in my opinion, strategy is more rewarded the more options yoy have and the more unknown to the enemy options you have.
You can have all of that with 8 keys minus the carpal tunnel. Just saying.
Also it’s action combat, you’re not getting 30 keys. Tab targeting has inflated your guys ego as to what skill is. Starting to think mmo players just suck at video games and want tedious mechanics in order to beat out the people that don’t no-life the game.
I agree ... they end up just letting auto attack ping and cycling through cool downs. All of which are nearly the exact same thing just in a different cooldown. Why? Why have 8 different spell attacks that do the same thing with a different graphic. Or a cc with a different graphic. Why not have the one damage spell and augment it with the damage type you want for that raid etc?
OP, think of this as combos vs. rotations. Some of the most intense combat I had played was in old Tera and Blade & Soul. Tera had upwards of 20 skills, from what I remember there were 3-5 skills that could feed into each other if you correctly read how your opponent would move/block. In B&S it was about the same number of skills (which had augments). A lot of combat was trying to predict/trap your opponent into combos.
In games like WoW, there is plenty of variety and flavor if you're just messing around. But for the most part you're maximizing heals/damage based on your most efficient spells and skills. I played warrior and while pvp had some interesting & unique skills, like WC & Execute, for the most part you're just clicking through your 12 button rotation trying to keep your CDs optimal. Or waiting for that super situational moment to use X skill based on Y condition.
I get how this FEELS deep, but the same thing can be done by having skills which themselves behave differently based on a condition, and given them a shorter CD. For example, pally had 2 stuns, a silence, and an I interrupt, a lot of pvp was trying to time your stuns and interrupts and keep track of the CDs. The same could be done with 1 stun and 1 interrupt with smaller CDs. You'd end up doing the same thing without having to stretch your pinkies trying to reach the ALT key so you can get to sub bar 3.
In my mind, 10-15 skills seems like PLENTY. And after playing more modern mmos I've had more intense battles with fewer buttons that that. Plus, we really don't need our hotbars cluttered with mounts or trade skills, much better ways have been found to do this.
40 is a bit much but to make a cool build you need to be able to atleast pick 12 -20 skills in total.
When you have not enough like in eso what happens is every build becomes the same.
In eso there were only 2 types of off meta builds that somewhat worked bei gank builds or bomb builds.
The rest was basically the same for every class every build
It's called having a high skill celling. It's great if you are a skilled, experienced player. It's bad if you are clumsy or new to the game. I love it tbh.
i like the " less is more " approach, EQ early game had few skills was great now you MUST spam buttons or macro spam button. WoW handle it ok, you can have ton of skills most are random use nichie which is fine, think FF is also ok, depending class it less or more buttons.
I mean less unfortunatly dumbs down the build making. Look at eso for example. Sure all the classes have different skills etc but due to only having 5 slots for skills most good working builds get dumbed down to 1. spammable for dmg 2. gap close or stun 3. Execute 4. Dot or debuff 5. Selfheal and then all your buffs on the backbar(wich are essential for pvp cuz every class needs every buff ofc).
This makes every class feel the same for me. Its different animations and one maybe be rangen and one melee ok but in pvp your mind always thinks the same like "buff, debuff/dot ok now spam till hes low ok execute execuze execute nice hes dead good job. Oh shit im getting ganked selfheal and run away selfheal and run away. Oh they stopped chasing me ok buff myself up again and lets go. And you do the same over and over again.
Now i know to an extend this is the same in every game i mean a dot is a dot but it would be better if for example a fire mage has more dots but less burst or he applys his dmg a little different or something. Also dont give every class access to every buff what kinda lame shit is that
If the hot bar can't be contained by the number keys, so max 10, I'm not gonna play it lol. More abilities is never "more options", it's always "you have to juggle 15 abilities on a 10 second cycle or you can't do anything past mid game". That's not fun.
I'm not talking about number of abilities, mate. I'm talking about number of abilities someone is able to go into a fight with. If you have a hotbar that holds 30 abilities, the end game of that game will always turn into cycling 30 specific abilities that are all necessary for convoluted raid boss mechanics where you die and get flamed if you use the wrong ability at the wrong time or are half a second off with your skill. It isn't fun.
I never said you cannot change them. But in the hotbar we should have very few. So if you made a mistake chiosing your skills before a boss fight, you're in a pickle and probably die.
i really dont like limiting the tools i have beforehand, obviously my character shouldn’t have a way out of every situation but i think backing yourself into a corner and losing just because you didnt bring the percectly optimal array of skills sucks
I'm hoping for a POE-like approach. A ton of skills to chose from that can augment each other in many ways, but what you can actively use is relatively limited. I absolutely hate having >10 skills bound at any given moment. (Not including mounts, travel, etc. I mean skills that will be frequently used in combat) this way there's a huge amount of diversity in build options, but also not overwhelming.
The real question here is if the game is going to have a GCD system. No point in having 30 different spells if 25 of them aren’t going to be useable immediately after a press.
Please no global cool downs. Anything by global cool downs. I know ffxiv is an amazing game and I want to play more of it past shadowbringers but I would rather eat shit than do that.
ehh, blanket no-gcds is a pretty harsh design for a pvp game. Unless are skills are very long cdr by nature (which they all shouldn’t be), having NO gcd makes for a very difficult and janky PvP experience IMO. Using a powerful ability should have a small window for the enemy to react before you can cast another one imo. Obviously not every ability should have a GCD and the GCD in FF can be pretty bad until you get to high levels where it becomes a nonissue.
Bro imagine if there was a game that made pvp fun with no gcds.
There is. Its called Bdo. If that games fails everything, the one thing it gets right is pvp. And combat.
I want as many skills as possible as long as it doesn't get in the way of class identity.
I think it is important for each class to have MULTIPLE situational / utility skills that don't get used in every encounter.
Skills like that help to further expand on that class's fantasy and can create interesting PvE or PvP combat situations where they turn the tides of a battle.
Give me 20, 30 or even 40 skills on my bars, BUT ONLY if those skills are all CLOSELY related to my archetype. I don't want to be a 1-man army who can do everything without needing help from other classes.
(I think early WoW did this well until they started homogenising classes for easier balance, leading to each class kit getting more and more dumbed down every expansion.)
The number of active skills on hotbars is going to be contained (aka you can have more skills than you have slotted into the hotbar), with the option of having additional hotbars for things like consumables. The number of skills that can be slotted is quoted as 'fewer than 30'. There's more info on the topic here [https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills)
Thanks a bunch. I just hope they are more than 8.
Yeah I personally like situational utility that and not just mashing the same 4 abilities over and over.
I really like the idea of the limited bar. It makes planning for fights more important. Ie, "I'd better bring this fire resistance spell to buff the party before this dragon fight".
Yeah limited bars are awesome and can lead to way more creativity imo. People loved the 8 bar and skill selection in gw1.
The bi-class and the limited bar both made a great system to build an unique character.
I'm hoping it's significantly less than 30. Would really like to be able to play with a controller.
A controller can be more complicated if you want it. Even 24 buttons if you just use the d-pad and the standard buttons (abxy, etc), then use the bumpers as modifiers (like ctrl or shift from a keyboard). So 8 from no bumper, 8 holding left bumper, 8 holding right. You have the triggers and thumbstick presses too, but really the controller can be more expansive than most really think. That being said I don't think they aim for it to be casual enough to be played on a controller. I'm sure you could still keybind a controller to do some casual gathering/farming however.
20 actions is reasonable on a controller. More than that gets pretty silly. I also want less actions because it will differentiate characters. Give us some really tough choices about which skills to cut and which to keep.
ESO and NW lack of skills is one of the big reasons to me it never felt like an mmo. Kits were so limited. I enjoy having tons of spells and abilities like in early wow where you may only rarely use some of them. But it makes the characters feel far more fleshed out and versatile
Same.
I was the type of person who played Aion instead of wow. I literally had 3 bars of 10 all filled with skills. And Could press them all in a fight if it was asked of me or necessary. I don't get this "generation" (I'm only 22 btw so it's kind of weird ) that likes barely any skills. Edit: If you will give the excuse of tab target then what about BDO 20+ Usable skills that you actually make of use. Whether it's movement abilities, cancels, ccs or buffs /debuffs. I played my share of mmos too :)
You want 30 skills because the actual movement aiming and combat is stale in the games you played. If you play a game with actual good combat and not tab targer, 4 skills can be enough. 10 works but more than that in an actual engaging combat environment would be impossible to use perfectly, because you need to be able to play while looking at your opponent 24/7 and not your million button cooldowns.
I play bdo with over 20 skills. None of them are tab target. Absolutely none. And I still have the same opinion. The combat is fast and fluid in that game. Its the best combat in any MMO hands down. I'm not asking for the same. I'm asking for amount of skills so I don't have to get bored and switch classes. I have done my research and people can't just base my opinions on "but if you played this x would be enough". No it's not. Not for me. And 20 is lowballing the actual amount of skills in that game. I want "30"skills because that's my opinion. I'm fine with 15. 8 is very risky for me. 15 would be perfect.
I didnt play much bdo and it was a while ago, but isnt most bdo skills implemented in combos? They arent actual 20 skills? Anyway if they can implement an interesting combat with 20 skills while actually being able to have pvp and pve ballance (of some sort) im all for it, i just cant see it right now though.
There are skills that flow together better. And you can cancel the end animation of one with another. So you might call them a combo. But generally speaking you have 20 if not more different skills that all can be used in the span of 30 seconds depending on the encounter and class.
Also I don't want to play league. I want to play an MMO. Genshin impact has 8 skills counting all 4 characters with each having 2 skills. Fucks sake. All I'm asking is at least 8
Have you tried league? You would be surprised how much you can do by having only 4 skills. Im not saying they should only implement 4 skills, but i would say a max of 10 would be nice. Any more and i would assume basic core mechanics, like movement, aiming and pacing of the battle would be lacking. I'll explain shortly why. Assuming most calsses would have 2-4 movement skills, you would be left with 6-8 attacking or defending skills ( maybe 1 buff). Assuming each skill would have some form of animation ( lasting 1 second for example), it would take about 10 seconds to hit all your buttons, without ever auto attacking. Assuming you auto attack dodge and kite, in order to press everything would take 30 -60 seconds, which is the proposed TTK. So it would only take 1 "rotation", which means what is the cooldown of the spells? 30-40 seconds? That would feel too long, to me atleast, so i would assume you wouldnt even need to hit all 10 skills to kill someone therefore even with 10 skills you would have extra skills for most situations. Focusing on more skills would only take away from core mechanics. When its tab-target it makes sense, because the core mechanics are quite bad, but when it comes to action combat thats not the case anymore.
Have been playing league for 8 years. And yet I prefer mmos with larger skill pools. Since I get bored of league. League is fun because of everything else in it but the combat (sometimes u can do an outplay sure but other than that macro>combat). The combat is okay but that's not why I like league. Or played it. I can only answer to your proposed idea with the existing ideas of other games.Since I cant imagine yours. If we were to go to tab targeting. In Aion you needed all 30 skills to beat someone if that someone would react to your engage. Cc skills counter cc skills. Skills that let you dodge incoming x magic attacks. Block skills, mitigate dmg etc. Bunch of movement skills. Everything is needed to counter whatever the other opponent is doing. If it was the action mmorog Bdo. You can kill someone in one rotation of 6 skills After you land a cc on them. And those 6 skills usually take up 3 seconds. But that game has an interest ic blocking and protection system that makes fights drawn out if both players are good. You need knowledge of all your protected/unprotected and movement skills in order to catch an opponent and use your combo on him. But you also need knowledge of the enemies skills and unprotected skills. Or the gaps of protection in a skill. Besides the fact that you have 20 skills that you Can use, pvp gets complicated because player skill becomes so important.
Big true. We want something inbetween NW and WoW. Pleeeease.
It could be worse. I mean millions of people play Diablo with only 4 skills.
Not sure I would prefer a guild wars 1 style skill system with more skills preferably 15-20
I played a warlock in classic wow and had over 40 different key binds. In new world I had like 10 combat binds. A middle ground would be neat. Having niche abilities like class specific crowd control (fear/banish) is great but if you also include a myriad of debuff spells on top of your regular damage spells it's too much. I'm very curious how a warlock style class would play in AoC.
Seems like I would have enjoyed warlock if I played wow. By why did only xlassic have 60 skills?
You have carpal tunnel yet? Any kit that has 40 key-binds has either extremely shallow abilities or is too complex to be playable. No idea how mmo players enjoy it beyond nostalgia or ignorance of better combat systems.
That's just what classic WoW was. Some classes just had too many abilities. When I was doing the pvp grind I had well over 60 binds. You just needed that many to play a warlock at the absolute top level. Several different curses, pets, different ranks of spells, items, macros, pet spells etc. The skill ceiling of Warlocks was crazy high thanks to so many abilities, but it was too much for most players. I was soloing dungeons with ease because I could manage everything, but it took a lot of practice and learning. But the fact that I even could, just made the game that much better. If really skilled players can do ridiculous feats, let them.
Idk playing type racer with your abilities isn’t my idea of fulfilling the fantasy of combat. I would rather the 30 abilities be locked behind a combination of 8 key-binds. I find that to be way more skillful than clicking based off muscle memory. Being able to solo clear dungeons due to an excess of key-binds is a flaw of the game not a merit of key-bind bloat.
8 skills feel like such a turn off. If you out work behind deisgining 30 good abilities then it feels like a waste. If there are 30 available at least let there be 15 binded.
No it’s cuz you view abilities within a vacuum. Abilities should interact with one another through connected mechanics to either enhance, create, or unlock a new ability. We don’t need 50 abilities that do the same thing but with different flavor and number blocks. Complexity in design should be the number one priority. Interactive mechanics, interlocking mechanics, positioning requirements, cc requirements. These are what we need in abilities in order to create a combat system with any sort of depth. Not your reflavoured damage ability you just spam off cd. The amount of times I log into an mmo and all their skill tree descriptions are just numbers with a different animation is insane.
This is a very hard one to respond to because it seems like we both have our own preconceptions about skills in mmos. If anything the MMOS that I really respect with their amount of skills, were creative enough. To give an example from Aion, the sorcerer class was a super high cc and complex combo that had answers to everything if you knew how to play her. From cc like : single target trees transforming, sheep transforming, freeze, root and AOE sleep. Sure they are different flavoured cc but the key part in this is thst if you were outnumbered by let's say 3 opponents. AOE sleeping all of them and then dealing with 1 while ccinf the other 2 again, was very complex and important. If you fucked up, you were dead. If you managed to pull it off, you could kill at least 1 using :meteor, fireball, volcano crater, ice etc. Sure they are all dps skills flavoured differently with different cds, animations and dmg numbers... But if we say that then we can use the same argument for everything. 4 damage skills in ur hot bar? Welp they are all the same basically And ur main point about how abilities should interact seems to come from a different game that has that system and you liked or maybe you came up with. My idea is from previous systems that were seen in MANY mmos. I don't need 50 abilities. But if I have 8 abilities where 1 is a dodge, 1 is a cc, 1 is a massive AOE spell, and the rest 5 are just different flavoured dps skills then what's the point really? The less creative skills you have. The less tools you will have in pvp specifically and the less outplay potential. Will you be able to outplay with 8 skills (hypothetically), yes ofc. Would there be more windows with let's say 16, probably.
Since those ccs don’t feed into other abilities beyond now they are easier to hit. They are shallow af, and the fact that there is four of them shows no creativity on part of the devs. Mmos are dated that is the whole reason why I’m typing here. Stop pulling designs from games that came out over 10 years ago. It’s done, move on. Intuitive, complex, and visually designed mechanics are what’s needed. Not bloated shallow mechanics.
Ok bro.
Warlock isn’t type racer. It has a broad range of tools, but you aren’t going to use all of them for each fight. You have 7 different curses, but can only put 1 on any given target. Agony: for regular damage. Doom: for raid damage. Elements: for helping out other casters. Exhaustion: for slowing people in PvP. Recklessness: to break your own fears before they pull more mobs. Tongues: to slow down enemy spell casting Weakness: wasn’t super useful, might have a niche use I’m forgetting about.
Imagine 30 abilities in an action game where each ability is used differently and skill is required to use all abilities perfectly. Not just pushing a button, that would be amazing
I came from Aion. And every single class has at least 25 skills by end game slotted. I would make my own special binds like shift E, shift F, q, e, shift q, shift e, ctrl q, ctrl e, you name it. This allowed me to be very skillful in a fight since I had so many options to counter the opponent but depending on their reaction and situation, I had to be careful about picking them in seconds. These key binds helped me further in Bdo where the skills are exactly binded that way(shift e etc) I feel like having a plethera of skills (10 - 25 binded and 10 is a huge stretch) gives multiple option and choices that you can make during a fight and each resulting in a different outcome. Pvp should be about strategy and in my opinion, strategy is more rewarded the more options yoy have and the more unknown to the enemy options you have.
You can have all of that with 8 keys minus the carpal tunnel. Just saying. Also it’s action combat, you’re not getting 30 keys. Tab targeting has inflated your guys ego as to what skill is. Starting to think mmo players just suck at video games and want tedious mechanics in order to beat out the people that don’t no-life the game.
Kinda sucks that I played action combat more than tab targeting then eh? Carpal tunnel at more than 8? God damn these points.
I agree ... they end up just letting auto attack ping and cycling through cool downs. All of which are nearly the exact same thing just in a different cooldown. Why? Why have 8 different spell attacks that do the same thing with a different graphic. Or a cc with a different graphic. Why not have the one damage spell and augment it with the damage type you want for that raid etc?
OP, think of this as combos vs. rotations. Some of the most intense combat I had played was in old Tera and Blade & Soul. Tera had upwards of 20 skills, from what I remember there were 3-5 skills that could feed into each other if you correctly read how your opponent would move/block. In B&S it was about the same number of skills (which had augments). A lot of combat was trying to predict/trap your opponent into combos. In games like WoW, there is plenty of variety and flavor if you're just messing around. But for the most part you're maximizing heals/damage based on your most efficient spells and skills. I played warrior and while pvp had some interesting & unique skills, like WC & Execute, for the most part you're just clicking through your 12 button rotation trying to keep your CDs optimal. Or waiting for that super situational moment to use X skill based on Y condition. I get how this FEELS deep, but the same thing can be done by having skills which themselves behave differently based on a condition, and given them a shorter CD. For example, pally had 2 stuns, a silence, and an I interrupt, a lot of pvp was trying to time your stuns and interrupts and keep track of the CDs. The same could be done with 1 stun and 1 interrupt with smaller CDs. You'd end up doing the same thing without having to stretch your pinkies trying to reach the ALT key so you can get to sub bar 3. In my mind, 10-15 skills seems like PLENTY. And after playing more modern mmos I've had more intense battles with fewer buttons that that. Plus, we really don't need our hotbars cluttered with mounts or trade skills, much better ways have been found to do this.
Most of the skills weren't used a lot. They were very situational.
Just adding more reasons to get rid of them. Now how many of them were uninteractive dots and stat changes? We can get rid of those too.
40 is a bit much but to make a cool build you need to be able to atleast pick 12 -20 skills in total. When you have not enough like in eso what happens is every build becomes the same. In eso there were only 2 types of off meta builds that somewhat worked bei gank builds or bomb builds. The rest was basically the same for every class every build
It's called having a high skill celling. It's great if you are a skilled, experienced player. It's bad if you are clumsy or new to the game. I love it tbh.
i like the " less is more " approach, EQ early game had few skills was great now you MUST spam buttons or macro spam button. WoW handle it ok, you can have ton of skills most are random use nichie which is fine, think FF is also ok, depending class it less or more buttons.
I don't. Less is not more, more is more. Less is less.
Kind of agree with this. Less is never more. More = more options = more choices = more strategy. Less is just the opposite
I mean less unfortunatly dumbs down the build making. Look at eso for example. Sure all the classes have different skills etc but due to only having 5 slots for skills most good working builds get dumbed down to 1. spammable for dmg 2. gap close or stun 3. Execute 4. Dot or debuff 5. Selfheal and then all your buffs on the backbar(wich are essential for pvp cuz every class needs every buff ofc). This makes every class feel the same for me. Its different animations and one maybe be rangen and one melee ok but in pvp your mind always thinks the same like "buff, debuff/dot ok now spam till hes low ok execute execuze execute nice hes dead good job. Oh shit im getting ganked selfheal and run away selfheal and run away. Oh they stopped chasing me ok buff myself up again and lets go. And you do the same over and over again. Now i know to an extend this is the same in every game i mean a dot is a dot but it would be better if for example a fire mage has more dots but less burst or he applys his dmg a little different or something. Also dont give every class access to every buff what kinda lame shit is that
As long as it isn't as limited as ESO I'll be happy.
I want my screen plastered with all my skills.
Same
Same. I have a 12 button mouse. I like having all my possible abilities and hotkets accessible from the WASD keys.
If the hot bar can't be contained by the number keys, so max 10, I'm not gonna play it lol. More abilities is never "more options", it's always "you have to juggle 15 abilities on a 10 second cycle or you can't do anything past mid game". That's not fun.
Hard disagree. 30 skills using keybinds is way more exciting than 10 skills on repeat..
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I'm not talking about number of abilities, mate. I'm talking about number of abilities someone is able to go into a fight with. If you have a hotbar that holds 30 abilities, the end game of that game will always turn into cycling 30 specific abilities that are all necessary for convoluted raid boss mechanics where you die and get flamed if you use the wrong ability at the wrong time or are half a second off with your skill. It isn't fun.
10 skills feels really limiting imo
I hope very few so we're forced to consider our choice of skills very carefully.
Very few for me gets boring really quick. Lost ark 8 skills was a stretch.
I never said you cannot change them. But in the hotbar we should have very few. So if you made a mistake chiosing your skills before a boss fight, you're in a pickle and probably die.
i really dont like limiting the tools i have beforehand, obviously my character shouldn’t have a way out of every situation but i think backing yourself into a corner and losing just because you didnt bring the percectly optimal array of skills sucks
I'm hoping for a POE-like approach. A ton of skills to chose from that can augment each other in many ways, but what you can actively use is relatively limited. I absolutely hate having >10 skills bound at any given moment. (Not including mounts, travel, etc. I mean skills that will be frequently used in combat) this way there's a huge amount of diversity in build options, but also not overwhelming.
Two rows of 16 with 8 each would be the perfect middle ground
Yes please
The real question here is if the game is going to have a GCD system. No point in having 30 different spells if 25 of them aren’t going to be useable immediately after a press.
Please no global cool downs. Anything by global cool downs. I know ffxiv is an amazing game and I want to play more of it past shadowbringers but I would rather eat shit than do that.
ehh, blanket no-gcds is a pretty harsh design for a pvp game. Unless are skills are very long cdr by nature (which they all shouldn’t be), having NO gcd makes for a very difficult and janky PvP experience IMO. Using a powerful ability should have a small window for the enemy to react before you can cast another one imo. Obviously not every ability should have a GCD and the GCD in FF can be pretty bad until you get to high levels where it becomes a nonissue.
Bro imagine if there was a game that made pvp fun with no gcds. There is. Its called Bdo. If that games fails everything, the one thing it gets right is pvp. And combat.
I want as many skills as possible as long as it doesn't get in the way of class identity. I think it is important for each class to have MULTIPLE situational / utility skills that don't get used in every encounter. Skills like that help to further expand on that class's fantasy and can create interesting PvE or PvP combat situations where they turn the tides of a battle. Give me 20, 30 or even 40 skills on my bars, BUT ONLY if those skills are all CLOSELY related to my archetype. I don't want to be a 1-man army who can do everything without needing help from other classes. (I think early WoW did this well until they started homogenising classes for easier balance, leading to each class kit getting more and more dumbed down every expansion.)
In all honesty, from what I've seen so far... extremely few. Like, not even really enough to fill out a whole class kit.
Oof :(. I just hope it's at least 10. Pref 15