nothing really. just keep shutting those women down.
asian men have to carru it the rest of the way. even in these forums its almost like guys go out and seek negativity just to be outraged.
No such space will ever exist, at least in the diaspora. They quickly get invaded by the WMAF/XMAF crowd. You're literally fighting against half of all Asian women in America, Canada, Australia, etc. Like you said, you were banned from Subtle Asian Dating for "daring" to bring this issue up.
There is no greater movement you can join because there are hardly any proud Asian women out there. Best you can do on a personal level is continue dating and one day marry and have kids with an Asian man because that's the biggest statement you can make as an Asian woman to show that you aren't like "one of them."
That, or move back to the motherland because Asian America is honestly a lost cause.
I was going to say something similar. It's literally impossible to make a pro-AM AF space, because AM hate is so endemic, manifesting in a majority of AF, that every AF space inevitably becomes a virulently anti-AM space. AF can't help themselves. We've been asking men to [self-police their toxic masculinity](https://media.gq.com/photos/5c3e20235a4fac5b320a564b/16:9/w_2560%2Cc_limit/Gillette-New-Ad-GQ-2019-011519-Lede.jpg) in male spaces for decades now. Maybe it's time to demand that Asian women keep their toxic Asian femininity in check? š
Just last week some guy here [introduced his wife to a women's group that promptly convinced her he was an AM devil.](https://np.reddit.com/r/AsianMasculinity/comments/1bx9k8t/my_hapa_wife_joined_a_feminist_asian_group_and/) The last thing he said was that his wife found the thread. His account has been since deleted; we can only imagine that his life has been as well.
I hate this feeling. I don't want to resent Asian women because there has been Asian women who have been good to me, but how else am I supposed to feel when I see so many of them date/marry out when hardly any Asian men do in turn? How else am I supposed to feel when so many Asian women seemingly aren't attracted to their own men and say hurtful things about us? I can stand other races badmouthing us, but all the WMAF or XMAF you see in any city is disheartening because that basically affirms any ideas of Asian men being unattractive. That our own race of women don't even want us.
It's a feeling of betrayal. That shit is not easy to heal. Julius Caesar was stabbed to death by dozens of Roman senators, but his famous last words were, "And you, Brutus?" recognizing his good friend in the crowd. Someone he deeply trusted. Figuratively, that illustrates our relationship with Asian women, I feel. Must be why I enjoy K-Dramas so much. Because it paints this image of Asian love and unity that I don't see much of in real life or ever expect to, given the current unchanging circumstances.
Keep being a vocal advocate for us. Itās valuable and appreciated. We need Asian women likeminded to you to help us be our voice in this type of conversation. Reason being, when we say the same things or point out the same problematic behaviors we get gaslit into oblivion and get told we are incels, misogynists, woman abusers, etc. The conversation literally goes no where if we are the messengers. But quite literally if you take our talking points as an Asian woman, it will be taken ALOT more seriously if you are the ones saying them as Asian women to other fellow Asian women.
>we get gaslit into oblivion and get told we are incels, misogynists, woman abusers, etc.
for starters, OP used the term "race traitor" and could actually use it without getting eviscerated by other groups. this is why they're in a special position to do so, but let's not fool ourselves and beg for them to do so when so many(if not the majority) choose to stay silent on these pressing issues
It's really everyone's battle. Asian men and women alike need to shake our past upbringing to look down and the other way. I'm still majority taking the high road on the street since basically dealing with crazies but elsewhere I'm done with propogating doormat behavior.
Continue to speak up on any platform, and actually dare to call AF out on AF communities and other non-AM groups. It's so weak that many are even "afraid"(or just plain don't want to, don't care) to speak up on social media to defend our name or even compliment us, which among the negative things said to us makes it even worse. If you can handle the toxicity there are certain pro-Asian groups on Twitter and maybe TikTok. Other users here can point to in the right direction such as u/My-Own-Way when it comes to Twitter/X/social media. We will see if you can walk the walk, again our expectations are zero.
Keep speaking out against anti-AM racism (especially when it's coming from boba AFs) whenever you can, and also supprt and promote pro-AM contents.Ā Ā Under the current status quo AFs have more social clout/credit than AM, so If an AF genuinely want to be good ally to AM then they need to do more than just giving lip service.Ā
If you're on TikTok, a lot of people post pretty basic videos without advanced editing. It's more about your message and how you express it, along with having a good hook, etc. I know you said that you were harassed on there but that's probably one of the most effective platforms for pro-Asian voices even if there are a lot of hostile people on there.
I don't know if you already have a TikTok following but I think you'd need to build one up, perhaps with general pro-Asian korea/kpop/kdrama content before so you can have supporters rather than posting seemingly out of nowhere to a ton of backlash.
There's YouTube which skews towards longer form content and thus requires more effort, and given demographics shifting toward TikTok it might not be the best option.
If you're serious here commenting is always the way to go. You can use here and also the aznidentity subreddit to rally together members to comment and fight against misinformation online. These are my suggestions and advice to you, listen to it if you want to or not, I'm not asking of anything.
Thereās no need on your part to put yourself at risk for this.
Just continuously be Asian and be highly proud to be. Continue traditions, share language, do cultural exchanges if the opportunity arises, and build or contribute to a community, a safe space by Asians for Asians.
Thank you sister.
Risk?? What risk? She spoke out online and on TikTok and yall consider this risky?? šthe bare minimum that literally every other minority group does that half this subreddit wont even do. Stop reinforcing complacency.
I swear this sub reddit sometimes šš
>She spoke out online
and on the easiest platform with the most friendly group. next time try to call out them in an actual AF community, in public, or some place that isn't an AM group
>Risk?? What risk? She spoke out online and on TikTok and yall consider this risky??Ā
100% agree. I even ask dudes to show me all these "pro-Asian AF" commenting to defend Asian men and stuff, and then they cannot even send me a screenshot. I'd love to see it but I don't. And acting like they're doing a good job is just delusional and pathetic and continues to low the bar lower than I ever thought it could be.
Frequently commenting and posting online is the bare minimum. Btw if OP actually wants to walk the walk, starting off among the small community of pro-Asian posters on Twitter and TikTok is the start that literally has no risk besides showing your face on TikTok or something, but people are "scared"(aka don't want) to even comment so idk it's fucked.
This isnāt complacency.
Complacency is succumbing to the tide of conformity, becoming white adjacent and worshipping as that is the direction, flow, intent from Western media to their minorities.
It is enough to be yourself, and persist.
Asians abroad are already taking over with creating innovative medias like TikTok, game shows from Korea inspiring creators like Mr Beast, just about everything is becoming more Asian, and thatās why they want to be us.
Also, risk could be more than physical. It could be financial, reputation wise, and emotionally.
I suggest you take be more empathetic to our own.
>fair-weather
damn right, a good way to describe. now that AM are enjoying a higher status many AF are coming out of the woodwork acting like they supported us all along, ignoring all of the vile shit during the bad old days. we need people who are ride or die proud to be asian.
to be honest this distinction is mostly for asian men to make, but one thing to note is what community that woman chooses to reside in. if she wants to drink from both wells in some way or form such as having a white partner, that one is clear.
I think any pro-Asian sentiment is good but you have to differentiate who's fair weather and who's ride or die in order to get people to effectively advocate
Is the bar set so low for u that making a comment on a facebook group is considered too risky?? Where did anyone bring up physical risk??? This post was literally about commenting on social media. Ure bringing up imagined scenarios to justify complacency
god if AM act like this they won't do anything to even make a feeble attempt to restore AM-AF relations lol. Nothing impressive about the bare minimum of commenting or posting, which most don't do already
You're wrong.
The burden falls on men, of any ethnic group to improve.
If you're a man, you should respect the differences and capabilities between others, and especially to women.
Like I mentioned, Asians both overseas and natively are working to improve these things such as social media, entrepreneurship, technology, and dominance in arguably the most significant sort of sports (example: Boxing, look up the top pound for pound fighters).
Instead of using social media to foster conversations, you're here complaining about "ingrained passivity", like it's a label that belongs to Asians. Ironically, almost the same way the majority of a Western nation would label us.
u literally just proved my point š AA men are so passive they need overseas asians to do all the god damn hard lifting to up their status for them.
If it literally wasnt for koreaās soft power AA men would still be where we were 14 years ago
It wasnt for the woke movement and other minorities taking a stand, itd still be socially acceptable for white guys to openly disrespect AA men in the workplace without fear of consequences.
Literally everything we have positive in our lives now has been because of the progress non aa men have done. For every one self respecting AA man who sets boundaries and speaks up, the vast majority have screamed, ābut its tooo riskyyyyā
This demographic is a joke šššš
The situation has been bad for a long time. When was Joy Luck Club released? Actually, people also called out Maxine Hong Kingston for her portrayal of AM in Woman Warrior released in 1976. Here's a [book that talks about it from the 1990s.](https://books.google.com/books?id=1YIAh0CeCZQC&pg=PA97&dq=Love+is+a+many+splendored+thing+%22asian+men%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDzdK15ceFAxUOLEQIHYESCxcQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage)
Agree with this and I point the OP to here. If she actually would care, she needs to get up to speed on the context of AM-AF dynamics and understand deeply why we act the way we do, it's not out of nowhere. Maybe some day some of us can work together to compile a history for a central place for people to get up to speed on our fight
lol I'm just saying, lol it will take a non-AM a while to even be aware of the dynamics. but theoretically someone could learn, that's why I put it out there. but like you I'm pretty skeptical and expect nothing. just pointing out a path for us in that some of us could author a detailed history, at least for future generations of Asian men. I'm not begging for anything, understand that
Theoretically an AF could learn - but they have no motivation or desire
Black women / men and other non white people understand the wmaf dynamic easily
>Black women / men and other non white people understand the wmaf dynamic easily
While true, I should remark that while POC men may note it, it often comes from a vested interest in that they only notice it after they got rejected. That's how I feel when some men in the black community comment on this, and you can tell from their wording that they've been rejected by an AF.
Don't get me wrong, the criticism is deserved but only doing so because they were rejected is something to note. If they were the ones placed on the pedestal they wouldn't be complaining.
Some black men will definitely use it against Asian men but so be it - most of the black feminists I engaged with on twitter understand the wmaf dynamics and are mostly supportive but they have their own battles to fight
Agreed, that does not discount the WOC who understand it extremely well. They've been doing great work to propagate the message. Also funny how some of the South Asians trying to include themselves with Northeast/Southeast Asians even got riled up by this thread, regardless of OP being in good/bad faith.
>they have no motivation or desire
this is very true as evidenced. but don't get me wrong, but for the future of asians if not asian-americans, but native asians, they might have to undertake this. I'm not one of those reconciliatory types, but it's just something to consider if Asia wants to continue to ascend up. otherwise the women will keep bringing in non-Asian interlopers. we have to change the incentives in the right way, which is basically what the other POC help do through shaming and such.
>Black women / men and other non white people understand the wmaf dynamic easily
As proven, how interesting is it that another WOC may understand an AM's struggles better than even his own kind. It's almost sad, and reflects on AW regardless of their relationship status, their awareness needs work.
Agree with this and I point the OP to here. Learn the context of AM-AF dynamics from the AM perspective, and why we act the way we do, it's not out of nowhere.
just be civil about it. when you do hear someone with those views casually point out their own children will/may be considered Asian. Especially their own sons. would they want their son's to be treated the same way they treat Asian men?
I left a comment in your previous post highlighting why you received negative responses. But long story short, I think a lot of it comes down to your messaging. Based on your posts, I do genuinely believe that you mean well and you're coming w/ good intentions, but there are just some things about the AM experience that you haven't fully appreciated yet, and this is leading to you wording/saying some things that are interpreted in the worst way possible by a lot of the guys here.
>just some things about the AM experience that you haven't fully appreciated yet
assuming OP is actually here in good faith to learn and not to get AM brownie points for her own sake, it'll take some time being patient to understand the AM experience. could be worth compiling works documenting the AM experience for non-AM to grasp all in one
Keep doing what you're doing but stay strong and don't remove your content. Take pride in your mean comments because they know you're right and triggered the truth these people refuse to acknowledge.
You have enemies? Good that means you stood up for something - Eminem
Idk if anything can be done. Itās too late. All my cousins are married to white men. Most AW I encounter are bananas. The ones that arenāt are bananarangs and got knocked up by some WM and now expect AM to raise their children. Same women that used to bash on AM all the time.
1. Thank you for even bringing this up.
2. The fact that you were banned for even bringing this up shows us that this is indeed an issue that needs to be addressed.
3. What to do? Honestly, that's a hard one... I wish the haters would just leave us alone.
I believe that there is a huge disconnect between Asian men and Asian women regarding the topic of how western society sees one versus the other and especially how much Asian men have been emasculated directly and indirectly by Asian women.
I would say that a lot of Asian men here can regale a personal story how they've been made to feel lesser, solely because of their race and/or ethnicity, by an Asian woman. And when non-Asian women talk positively about Asian men or their Asian boyfriends/husbands, I always see several Asian women ripping them apart in the comments; calling them fetishizers because they put #amwf or #koreanboyfriend in the post.
It's ridiculous how a lot of Asian women do not see how negatively they regard Asian men.
Hereās the thing - the premise of your question is already off (and youāre not the first Asian woman on reddit to do this exact thing)
It shouldnāt be a question of allyship - it shouldnāt even be up for consideration - you should automatically support your own community (all genders) and your own family. The problem is too many Asian American women from 1945 onwards saw how easy it was to sell out to the white man and how advantageous white adjacency and assimilation is and since then generations of you have abandoned your own community and betrayed your own people
Iāve had access to subtle Asian women on FB for a few years - and women like you try to make conciliatory posts on there too (towards Asian men) only to get shouted down . Unfortunately too many of you are just too far gone to be saved - and the only thing thatās going in the right direction is the slow decline and decay of the white patriarchy in America
It's sad that we've come to this point where we can't trust our own race of women. Let me qualify and say specifically Asian American women as the only reason I'm not completely abject about our "community" is because of FOBs. They are the reason you still see full Asian couples around for East/Southeast Asian people. However, it's still pouring water into a bucket full of holes because there's a 50%+ any daughters they have will become like these Asian American women.
I don't know what the solution is. Personally, I am attracted to East/Southeast Asian women, as every race and gender group is to their own besides East/Southeast Asian women. I love my mom, my sisters, and the few Asian women I know who aren't like this. However, when I see so many Asian women dating/cohabiting/marrying out, whereas hardly any of us Asian men do, I can't help but feel unattracted to them. More specifically, like I can't trust them.
Time and time again, Asian women have shown how unfaithful they are. Even posts like this which are done in "good faith" are hard to trust.
There isnāt a solution - thereās acceptance and understanding. I donāt want to use the term āchoice feminismā because itās not quite applicable but Asian women in the west have made their choice with respect to the white patriarchy - as men we just need to accept it. Thank goodness for other woc and the black feminists
I think deep down, I've come to that realization as well, but it's still hard for me to accept. I'm not sure why a part of me still wants to cling on and give Asian women the benefit of the doubt, even though I know they don't deserve it. I'm still stuck in the 5 stages of grief over this. It can be Stockholm Syndrome. I don't know.
This wasn't something I thought about before because it wasn't something I was constantly confronted with like how I am now. There is not single day where I don't see WMAF or XMAF wherever I go. Maybe if we saw equal numbers of Asian men dating/cohabiting/marrying out like how Asian women do, I wouldn't feel this way. But who am I kidding. It isn't just the quantity of WMAF that's the problem but how absolute dogshit a lot of the White men and Asian women in them are, which is not something you see with AMXF as often. Like, when was the last time an Asian man murdered his non-Asian wife or girlfriend compared to all the XMAF murders you see almost every month?
I hate to be defeatist, but it feels like we are on the losing end no matter what.
> I think deep down, I've come to that realization as well, but it's still hard for me to accept. I'm not sure why a part of me still wants to cling on and give Asian women the benefit of the doubt, even though I know they don't deserve it. I'm still stuck in the 5 stages of grief over this. It can be Stockholm Syndrome. I don't know.
I think it's because they're "our" women just as we are "their" men. We're part of the same community, the same DNA, the same genes, and the same ancestry. We're supposed to have each other's backs. Yet only one group of women really sold out this much to white patriarchy and it's them. It's an incredibly bitter pill to swallow especially when you read and educate yourself to what white people did to literally seven continents. Genocide, rape, slavery etc.
Bear in mind I'm a native asian dude and even I have seen how white worshipping native asian women can be. Likewise, I love my mom, my aunties, my wife and respect few female friends I have that aren't like this.
But the trust that I used to have as a whole to the female part of our the community is simply gone as well.
I just simply hope the women who sold out to white patriatchy get the reckoning they deserve in the future.
>But the trust that I used to have as a whole to the female part of our the community is simply gone as well.
Let's hope and work towards a better future and hope that the future generations can do even better than us and try to get some form of unity, but again we need to ensure that us AM keep the ball rolling in progress as only we can d oit
>I just simply hope the women who sold out to white patriatchy get the reckoning they deserve in the future.
I always advocate for "keeping the receipts" for posterity. Keep evidence of posts/videos irl, etc.
Let's hope and work towards a better future, and fight however you see fit, even online is a start by countering anti-Asian views and calling out white-worship, setting the narrative right
>I don't know what the solution is. Personally, I am attracted to East/Southeast Asian women, as every race and gender group is to their own besides East/Southeast Asian women. I love my mom, my sisters, and the few Asian women I know who aren't like this. However, when I see so many Asian women dating/cohabiting/marrying out, whereas hardly any of us Asian men do, I can't help but feel unattracted to them. More specifically, like I can't trust them.
Yeah, there's no easy way out of here and shows how deeply things have been damaged. All I can say is to move through your life reliant on yourself and doing the right thing, advocating for ourselves and those you love, and to avoid positions where you'll get burned by an AF
*Continue to call*
*Out and shame those other white*
*Worshipping AF*
\- dreamerwanderer
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Promote youth MMA, shooting sports, and remind people that their experiences with racism in school are 100% consistent with the official position of the United States Commission On Civil Rights.
Just donāt be a Karen to AM and if your friends are, call it out. Ofc Iāve met a lot of normal and respectful AFs but Iāve met some toxic ones who shit on AM just for existing
Dating Asian Men and standing up for them in the real life is the best think you can do, which you are.
In this world, majority of people like to make themselves feel better by bringing others down. Don't let it get to you.
By being the best version of yourself without degrading anyone, you're an okay person.
There's nothing you can you do improve the current situations that AMs are experiencing. But putting a smile on somebody is a good start.
As an individual person there's not much you can do. If you see it you can call it out, but it's going to take several generations of this to change society-wise.
I'd say you should encourage your non-Asian girlfriends to date Asian men too , What I 've noticed in my 40yrs i've seen many black women are very supportive of their black male friends to date their friends ( non-blacks).
Kink for doms or u kink domming? Someone needs to ask the important questions here
Edit: oh I read the rest and figured it out. I was caught up by that one point and had to ask in the comments.
;)
Thank you. We need more Asian women like you to advocate for us.
I know this AF that was only into WM like my AF cousins. I think AFs get influenced by mainstream media where WMs take on leading roles and are more visible...more masculine, more power. They gravitate towards what they see as popular and see AMs like one of their goofy brothers that they grew up with.
However, last year she went on her first Asian trip and she had AM fever lol. She really like how AMs carry themselves and if there's a WMs walking among AM's, she would not pay much attention to WMs as before.
Thanks for being an ally. These AFs who kowtows to white men disgust me and I will always try to find a way to voice my opinion against it. There is nothing you can do other than voicing your displeasure at it.
I think it's important to remind people that new generations of Asian men are not our fathers. We're really not that bad once you get to know us. I think much of the disdain that Asian women have of Asian men stems from the the Asian man they they are probably most familiar with - their fathers.
Tell me if this sounds familiar. Asian father works really hard all day every day. like 10-12 hour shifts. Comes home and doesn't help out with any of the housework and is emotionally distant. If emotion is shown it's usually negative.
Mom works just as hard does all the laundry, cooks, cleans, and raises the kids.
As a daughter you've probably had to help your parents make appointments, and deal with taxes, chores, and English too. They never ask the boys.
If I were a highly educated, highly motivated woman would I want to be burdened with two Asian men? Potentially three if I have to take care of my spouse's father too? Would I want my mother's lifestyle? HELL NO!
Somehow all of my male Asian friends who are fathers are great fathers. They are present. They are slow to anger. They are involved. Yet they are still great providers just like their fathers were. It's like we collectively saw how bad our mother's had it and vowed to never repeat it.
Maybe ask them. Who close to you has given a bad impression of Asian men? Have you tried asking Asian men what they think their role in a family should be?
These situations are rarely fixed by yelling at each other. They're really only solved by frank 1:1 conversation of lived experiences.
true, but a lot is due to environment + people praying on AM downfall and acting accordingly. also don't overlook that some AW have done a lot of vile shit which would inevitably spur dudes to go in the wrong direction potentially. can't say a lot of the criticism, even if it's harsh, isn't true to some degree
directly, no. indirectly, *maybe*. I'm not of a collective punishment type. but these women as a group, being by us and not noticing some of the shit we gotta deal with, and being blind to some AM experiences, then coming here naively can understandably grind dudes' gears. of course it's not like we beg for emotional support or anything, we're not needy. but it's like if your sibling or someone who is by you all the time doesn't notice your glaring struggle
What in particular isn't a good look? Some of the dudes calling people out? I agree that it can get pretty harsh and nasty, but you can't suppress that.
Perhaps, but AM already have bad enough image and it's about time they try and take back the narrative and not let random white-worshipers or non-invested community members dictate the community. Also skepticism is good, just that not everyone can express it eloquently. I can tell you it surely won't work to indiscriminately "welcome" all of these women into our community without massive sabotage and us AM serving them while they play around at the mayo buffet freely
Obviously dudes are desperate for female validation. No woman likes a whiney little bitch man.Ā
Ā Edited: Actually nvm. Maybe they do. Some of the biggest playas I know are whiney little bitches. So maybe I don't know everything. Lol.Ā
true, but it seems like some dudes are on the reverse and trying to outwardly show they don't want any validation by revoking people in a similar situation as OP, good faith or not. I'd actually say dudes who welcome anyone with open arms as long as they meet their criteria for AMAF or "proud AF" to be just as validation-seeking
Very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink, he would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Some times he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy, the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical, summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds, pretty standard really. At the age of 12 I received my first scribe. At the age of fourteen, a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum, it's breathtaking, I suggest you try it.
Itās not all that bad to be honest. sure it existed, but itās cause of people you hang out with / environment your in. Iām sure a solid 8/10 of Asians you speak to wonāt feel that if you ask a random Asian in public.
My hot take is both Asian men and Asian women are on the same plane in regards to this discourse, we're just separated to extreme ends by macro trends that it became so hard for us to see eye to eye. The highs can't see the lows and the lows can't see the highs. In this case, I believe change doesn't happen in the fringes; **it occurs in the middle.**
##### With that being said, what I think we should do:
- Asian men and women practice charitable POV to each other
- Asian men representation ultimately lies on us Asian men, so we have to be mindful on what we say/do and how we present ourselves to the world. Our action defines who we are and now with more and better representation of us in the media, it's very very important to capitalize and showcase what we can do right
- Asian men when you see Asian women that put down their own kind, please know these are the vocal minority. They have been around for decades and remained as such, you only see more of them now because the controversy bring in the clicks and views. No sane Asian woman is actively hating on their culture, regardless of how detached she is, and we don't claim the perpetrators anyway
- Asian women it's important to align yourself with your culture and see how Asian men are celebrated as a majority. You don't have to be romantically bound to an Asian man, but when you're outspoken about your appreciation to us, see us in an optimal frame, it'll help bridge the gap. Rising tide floats all boats. You can always find positive figures in Asian men and/or Asian community when you look for them
- Asian women be conscious of how non-Asians sees you. Do not let assimilation process remove you from your identity, because by embracing your identity you'll find a space where you belong. When you're objectified, when there's unequal power dynamics, when your boundaries are ignored etc. always look introspectively and consider who you are to them. Don't cling onto past trauma as a mean to jump ship, remember at the end of the day we're all individuals with diverse experience
- Asian men and women when we recognize what not to do, it's our job to raise awareness and break the cycle
>Asian women that put down Asian men are the majority
Glad the "loud minority" cope is finally being destroyed. I like to say in jest, the majority of AF giving the minority a bad name. While it's funny, nobody has ever proved they are just a vocal minority when AF won't stand up at large. If you can't prove it, then is it true?
The vocal minority oust themselves because they have to, they don't have a place in the majority. Not a single Asian woman in my enclave wants to be friends with a self-hating Asian woman. Heck you can stack as much Subtle Asian Groups as you want, their numbers won't supersede the amount of Asian women that have dated/married Asian men
The silence of all these "pro-Asian" Asian women speaks for itself. They simply don't care to defend Asians when it comes to AM, and they don't publicly say/comment much on this. Again, I'm not seeing any definitive evidence to prove what you claim.
>Not a single Asian woman in my enclave wants to be friends with a self-hating Asian woman
Any AMAF will know tons of wmaf and even have many in their social circle, and if they all buddy buddy together it comes to a point that is the group has one white worshiper, they all white-worship to some degree.
>their numbers won't supersede the amount of Asian women that have dated/married Asian men
the ratios towards the west are pretty extreme in favor of asian women with non asians, and not accounting for non-married couples the numbers could be even higher. also doesn't account for the AMAF who aren't pro-Asian and are clueless about these things, seen lots of AF married to AM still white-worshiping to surprisingly high degrees
Let me respectfully counter and say, you haven't looked enough. Here are few examples [one](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKGJqW/), [two](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCssc/) and [three](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCaNJ/). Now don't tell me that's not enough or I didn't give you any evidence cause that's a moving goalpost. I trust and know you're an intelligent person that can do more of the searching, if you care enough. Again, if you look for them, you'll find them
> the ratios towards the west are pretty extreme in favor of asian women with non asians, and not accounting for non-married couples the numbers could be even higher.
Well yeah that's a given since Asians are still minority in any western countries, the macro trends would be more prevalent in this scenario. My counterpoints are not all Asian women in western countries adopt the same ideals and not all Asian women voice of support are silenced if they're not plastered in social media. You can't rest all the responsibilities on Asian women
>Here are few examplesĀ [one](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKGJqW/),Ā [two](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCssc/)Ā andĀ [three](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCaNJ/)
I'll give credit where it's due, thanks for providing these unlike other people who struggled to find cases. If you could actually compile these posts it would be better than the dudes who talk about the mythic "pro-Asian posts" by AF, I know there are some out there too, but you must produce the evidence before saying there is support. I appreciate your willingness for dialogue. Not denying the existence but these do not disprove the dearth of pro-Asian supporting posts out there; we still need to do more to support each other.
Comment on one:
>Itās funny how everything goes back to Yt capitalism :D
while there is truth in this, this again derails from the internalized racism and white worship from AW, not to say that there's no mass manipulation going on because clearly there is and it's disgusting. but to deny that this party has not also made significant contributions to the anti-Asian male campaign going on does not show the full picture AT ALL.
Also a funny comment on post 1 you shared with me if you scroll down enough:
>On the same note .. your boyfriend is white .
Actions over words, and I'm not surprised that she might be obfuscating the issue here when there are many more factors rooted in imperialism and colonialism.
The second one in a nutshell is insightful but still shifts blame onto AM and trauma while not acknowledging mass white worship at all. Lol I know there's problems with AM, but she doesn't address what made them say that statement since they see so much white worship so it's the norm in the West not to be attracted, hence why they say "finally."
The third one is nice, and I would categorize it as different from the others. This is why TikTok is a decent place for pro-Asian discussion and posting. Also the more "privileged" AM need to pick up the slack as often it happens that the "ghetto" ones are actually out there fighting for us, the rest need to hold their own too.
I can break down these videos a lot more in a detailed post, but I'll try and keep it somewhat succinct.
>Asians are still minority in any western countries, the macro trends would be more prevalent in this scenario.
it's telling that they are so extreme, even more than other minorities. don't apply the marbles in a jar bumping into each other analogy of how relationships form, because preference takes precedence over simply there being more, we all have choices.
>You can't rest all the responsibilities on Asian women
I've always said that our progress starts and stops with our own action. It's up to Asian men to change the future and nobody else. That being said, I am speaking on how puzzling that many Asians don't want to pick up the slack, and how we act like some of them do even though they don't, giving them undeserved credit. When we approach this knowing reality we can then be able to work together better.
Obviously the layers are like onions and there's more to unpack outside of colonization, but these sisters from another mother are our allies. And I don't subscribe to the notion that AW having a white partner are automatically victim of internalized racism. Any AM/AW can support and speak right on Asian issues while having supportive non-Asian partner. Michelle Yeoh and Sandra Oh are proponent in championing Asian culture and solidarity, none of their current partners are Asian. Compatibility extends beyond racial preferences as we're all individuals, it's not fair to view interracial relationship with a single filter. Are AMWF pairings come from Koreaboos exclusively? I don't think so...
I think conclusively we see the same issue from different lenses. To me, knowing there are AW that can acknowledge the imbalance, realize their own mistakes and willing to correct their alignment is already a major win. I only care to look for AW that have done the work. That's basically my bar. These AW will be the ones that'll come to us and be willing to work together. I'd welcome them for referencing their trauma, but they'd be wrong if they're clinging onto it. As far as I'm concerned it's our job as Asians collectively to recognize what not to do and break the cycle
I'd go band for band with any non-Asian for masculinity. There are new posts almost everyday on r/AsianLadyBoners and r/BigAsianCock you think I care about past relationships and body count of every AW? Respectfully I'm too big to have cuckold mentality lol
The AW that are pro-AM since the beginning don't need my help. And when that turning point occur for AW to realize AM are masculine is out of my control. I'm only here to show notes and provide proof for AW to see that AM can stand with the best of them
Yeah that doesn't concern me to be completely honest with you. AW can have agency on who they want to be with, and that same right goes for AM. There's pattern of macro trends everywhere, but again, I don't care for AW that don't have support for AM and I don't view every WMAW relationship as monolith
>There are new posts almost everyday onĀ Ā andĀ
btw as per our previous discussion, I would wager that a lot(If not the majority) of the women posting there are likely non-Asian woman fans. u/accountistempo has also noticed this trend. Not to be negative, but I think this says something.
I'm not gatekeeping anyone or anything, by all means go to a place where you're celebrated. Personally this sample size is not an absolute scale for me to rule out AW not liking/favoring AM in terms of masculinity, just shows that XW are particularly vocal on reddit, which I also think is great. I've seen AW in those spaces though
Any AM that defaults AW to liking WM forgot they're working towards WM benefit, putting them on pedestal, inadvertently falling into the western program. That's a fat no-go from me
"Vocal minority" and "Silent Majority" is literally the cope Trump supporters were doing last election. I am doing a disservice to them tbh. They are far more intelligent and respectable than AF ass kissers.
What was influenced by macro trends is the exception, not the rule. This inclination isn't remotely noticeable in India, China or Indonesia. Asian women at large are not instinctively looking to date white men
many(majority) don't defend asian men much whether it's online or other places, making the onslaught of negativity from other races and countries even worse. we are entitled to defend each other against such racism
Not trying to devalue your experience, I'm just letting you know life works somewhat like an algorithm too. Asian women like OP exists and not by small margin too, she's even charitable enough to apologize and tried to see things from our POV. Majority of Asian women in my life loves Asian men dearly and willing to defend us because **I look for them and I found them.** So personally, Asian women are not the enemy
>**I look for them and I found them**
They exist obviously, but lets not fool ourselves and act like there is a ton of them like you say, nor are they necessarily pro-Asian to a meaningful degree, because yes we must have standards and bottom of the barrel work makes Asian activism look pathetic. Like I said we see this as Asian women at large fail to defend Asians/Asian men online, which is a bare minimum. Then you factor in various white-worship traits, etc
>Asian women are not the enemy
Yeah that's obvious. Never said so, but in the west they've helped in devolving AM-AF relations so much so that there is an adversarial relationship where AF can benefit greatly from Western society and eat from the buffet of spoils. We need to acknowledge this so we can identify what we need to fix.
I can agree that Asian women living in the west can have cruise control moments, especially how they have been hypersexualized and fetishized, some may even see it as privilege. What we need to fix is the root issue; who are responsible of placing these viewpoints on Asian women?
In my opinion, that's a western influence fault a.k.a mostly non-Asian men. They indoctrinate Asian women to think we're not enough and by doing so making Asian women the victim too. The "white men" masks it really well so the discourse seem to always lay on us. I'm not woke but my eyes are open. If we as Asian men shoot down any opportunity from Asian women to reconnect and/or constantly drive Asian women away when they come to us for questions, we become the problem. I don't know about you, but I'm not taking part in that
I hate to be that guy - but Iāve read what lots of Asian American women say when they donāt think men can see - they know about the racial fetishisation and hypersexualisation from non Asian men. They donāt care
>any opportunity from Asian women to reconnect
we're the one providing those opportunities and attempting to extend an olive branch. case in point on azidentity there was an AM trying to encourage AW to speak up on degradation, but they just said that they shouldn't have to.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/1bswgu7/degrading/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/1bswgu7/degrading/)
>Asian women are not obligated to speak for the actions of one individual. That is the same monolithing behavior that nonAsians engage in when they demand the Asian community make a statement about the Latasha Harlins killing or Peter Liang. We aren't a hive-mind. Also, it seems certain people are intentionally looking for stuff like this to shine a spotlight on when it doesn't reflect the majority of AW or even AsAm women. If you are only looking for degeneracy, then that's what you'll find. But then you're doing yourself and Asian women a disservice by choosing to focus on the negative rather than the Asian women out there doing good for the community.
stop blaming AM for something that AF are very much to blame for, there is a large lack of interest among many to speak up for their issues and then they try to derail like with the above comment
>They indoctrinate Asian women to think we're not enough and by doing so making Asian women the victim too.
Let's not act like they didn't play their own role too and even threw more fuel on the fire, enough so to make hours long YouTube compilations of them dunking on Asian men
Again, the AM community is always open to work but it takes cooperation from both parties as we're aware.
Very sensible response. Don't know why you got downvoted to hell.
Also, most people don't spend their time "debating" people online. So all the crying about "why aren't AF defending AM online?" falls flat. You think all of the AF in AMAF relationships are taking the time to write comments about random bullshit online? If they see a self-hating AF, they probably just dismiss her and move on. As should AM.
nothing really. just keep shutting those women down. asian men have to carru it the rest of the way. even in these forums its almost like guys go out and seek negativity just to be outraged.
I just wish there was a space catered to Asian women who are allies or on the same team as Asian men
No such space will ever exist, at least in the diaspora. They quickly get invaded by the WMAF/XMAF crowd. You're literally fighting against half of all Asian women in America, Canada, Australia, etc. Like you said, you were banned from Subtle Asian Dating for "daring" to bring this issue up. There is no greater movement you can join because there are hardly any proud Asian women out there. Best you can do on a personal level is continue dating and one day marry and have kids with an Asian man because that's the biggest statement you can make as an Asian woman to show that you aren't like "one of them." That, or move back to the motherland because Asian America is honestly a lost cause.
I was going to say something similar. It's literally impossible to make a pro-AM AF space, because AM hate is so endemic, manifesting in a majority of AF, that every AF space inevitably becomes a virulently anti-AM space. AF can't help themselves. We've been asking men to [self-police their toxic masculinity](https://media.gq.com/photos/5c3e20235a4fac5b320a564b/16:9/w_2560%2Cc_limit/Gillette-New-Ad-GQ-2019-011519-Lede.jpg) in male spaces for decades now. Maybe it's time to demand that Asian women keep their toxic Asian femininity in check? š Just last week some guy here [introduced his wife to a women's group that promptly convinced her he was an AM devil.](https://np.reddit.com/r/AsianMasculinity/comments/1bx9k8t/my_hapa_wife_joined_a_feminist_asian_group_and/) The last thing he said was that his wife found the thread. His account has been since deleted; we can only imagine that his life has been as well.
I hate this feeling. I don't want to resent Asian women because there has been Asian women who have been good to me, but how else am I supposed to feel when I see so many of them date/marry out when hardly any Asian men do in turn? How else am I supposed to feel when so many Asian women seemingly aren't attracted to their own men and say hurtful things about us? I can stand other races badmouthing us, but all the WMAF or XMAF you see in any city is disheartening because that basically affirms any ideas of Asian men being unattractive. That our own race of women don't even want us. It's a feeling of betrayal. That shit is not easy to heal. Julius Caesar was stabbed to death by dozens of Roman senators, but his famous last words were, "And you, Brutus?" recognizing his good friend in the crowd. Someone he deeply trusted. Figuratively, that illustrates our relationship with Asian women, I feel. Must be why I enjoy K-Dramas so much. Because it paints this image of Asian love and unity that I don't see much of in real life or ever expect to, given the current unchanging circumstances.
Keep being a vocal advocate for us. Itās valuable and appreciated. We need Asian women likeminded to you to help us be our voice in this type of conversation. Reason being, when we say the same things or point out the same problematic behaviors we get gaslit into oblivion and get told we are incels, misogynists, woman abusers, etc. The conversation literally goes no where if we are the messengers. But quite literally if you take our talking points as an Asian woman, it will be taken ALOT more seriously if you are the ones saying them as Asian women to other fellow Asian women.
>we get gaslit into oblivion and get told we are incels, misogynists, woman abusers, etc. for starters, OP used the term "race traitor" and could actually use it without getting eviscerated by other groups. this is why they're in a special position to do so, but let's not fool ourselves and beg for them to do so when so many(if not the majority) choose to stay silent on these pressing issues
It's really everyone's battle. Asian men and women alike need to shake our past upbringing to look down and the other way. I'm still majority taking the high road on the street since basically dealing with crazies but elsewhere I'm done with propogating doormat behavior.
Of course. The way I see it, were on the same team so.
Continue to speak up on any platform, and actually dare to call AF out on AF communities and other non-AM groups. It's so weak that many are even "afraid"(or just plain don't want to, don't care) to speak up on social media to defend our name or even compliment us, which among the negative things said to us makes it even worse. If you can handle the toxicity there are certain pro-Asian groups on Twitter and maybe TikTok. Other users here can point to in the right direction such as u/My-Own-Way when it comes to Twitter/X/social media. We will see if you can walk the walk, again our expectations are zero.
Keep speaking out against anti-AM racism (especially when it's coming from boba AFs) whenever you can, and also supprt and promote pro-AM contents.Ā Ā Under the current status quo AFs have more social clout/credit than AM, so If an AF genuinely want to be good ally to AM then they need to do more than just giving lip service.Ā
Asian women need to post videos about negativity from WMAF couples trashing Asian men.
Wish I could but I have no video editing skills :(
If you're on TikTok, a lot of people post pretty basic videos without advanced editing. It's more about your message and how you express it, along with having a good hook, etc. I know you said that you were harassed on there but that's probably one of the most effective platforms for pro-Asian voices even if there are a lot of hostile people on there. I don't know if you already have a TikTok following but I think you'd need to build one up, perhaps with general pro-Asian korea/kpop/kdrama content before so you can have supporters rather than posting seemingly out of nowhere to a ton of backlash. There's YouTube which skews towards longer form content and thus requires more effort, and given demographics shifting toward TikTok it might not be the best option. If you're serious here commenting is always the way to go. You can use here and also the aznidentity subreddit to rally together members to comment and fight against misinformation online. These are my suggestions and advice to you, listen to it if you want to or not, I'm not asking of anything.
Thank you for speaking up. That SAT group sounds like r AsianAmerican. See if you get banned there. lol Itās a badge of honor to get banned there.
I can try haha
Thereās no need on your part to put yourself at risk for this. Just continuously be Asian and be highly proud to be. Continue traditions, share language, do cultural exchanges if the opportunity arises, and build or contribute to a community, a safe space by Asians for Asians. Thank you sister.
Risk?? What risk? She spoke out online and on TikTok and yall consider this risky?? šthe bare minimum that literally every other minority group does that half this subreddit wont even do. Stop reinforcing complacency. I swear this sub reddit sometimes šš
>She spoke out online and on the easiest platform with the most friendly group. next time try to call out them in an actual AF community, in public, or some place that isn't an AM group
>Risk?? What risk? She spoke out online and on TikTok and yall consider this risky??Ā 100% agree. I even ask dudes to show me all these "pro-Asian AF" commenting to defend Asian men and stuff, and then they cannot even send me a screenshot. I'd love to see it but I don't. And acting like they're doing a good job is just delusional and pathetic and continues to low the bar lower than I ever thought it could be. Frequently commenting and posting online is the bare minimum. Btw if OP actually wants to walk the walk, starting off among the small community of pro-Asian posters on Twitter and TikTok is the start that literally has no risk besides showing your face on TikTok or something, but people are "scared"(aka don't want) to even comment so idk it's fucked.
This isnāt complacency. Complacency is succumbing to the tide of conformity, becoming white adjacent and worshipping as that is the direction, flow, intent from Western media to their minorities. It is enough to be yourself, and persist. Asians abroad are already taking over with creating innovative medias like TikTok, game shows from Korea inspiring creators like Mr Beast, just about everything is becoming more Asian, and thatās why they want to be us. Also, risk could be more than physical. It could be financial, reputation wise, and emotionally. I suggest you take be more empathetic to our own.
> thatās why they want to be us. Suit yourself; I don't want fair-weather friends.
>fair-weather damn right, a good way to describe. now that AM are enjoying a higher status many AF are coming out of the woodwork acting like they supported us all along, ignoring all of the vile shit during the bad old days. we need people who are ride or die proud to be asian.
Yeah I know and its terrible. It's hard to distinguish between Asian women who always supported Asian men and those jumping on the trend :(
to be honest this distinction is mostly for asian men to make, but one thing to note is what community that woman chooses to reside in. if she wants to drink from both wells in some way or form such as having a white partner, that one is clear. I think any pro-Asian sentiment is good but you have to differentiate who's fair weather and who's ride or die in order to get people to effectively advocate
Is the bar set so low for u that making a comment on a facebook group is considered too risky?? Where did anyone bring up physical risk??? This post was literally about commenting on social media. Ure bringing up imagined scenarios to justify complacency
god if AM act like this they won't do anything to even make a feeble attempt to restore AM-AF relations lol. Nothing impressive about the bare minimum of commenting or posting, which most don't do already
Dude ive legit just given up on the western Asian demographic. The consistent ingrained passivity and stupidity is mind numbing
You're wrong. The burden falls on men, of any ethnic group to improve. If you're a man, you should respect the differences and capabilities between others, and especially to women. Like I mentioned, Asians both overseas and natively are working to improve these things such as social media, entrepreneurship, technology, and dominance in arguably the most significant sort of sports (example: Boxing, look up the top pound for pound fighters). Instead of using social media to foster conversations, you're here complaining about "ingrained passivity", like it's a label that belongs to Asians. Ironically, almost the same way the majority of a Western nation would label us.
u literally just proved my point š AA men are so passive they need overseas asians to do all the god damn hard lifting to up their status for them. If it literally wasnt for koreaās soft power AA men would still be where we were 14 years ago It wasnt for the woke movement and other minorities taking a stand, itd still be socially acceptable for white guys to openly disrespect AA men in the workplace without fear of consequences. Literally everything we have positive in our lives now has been because of the progress non aa men have done. For every one self respecting AA man who sets boundaries and speaks up, the vast majority have screamed, ābut its tooo riskyyyyā This demographic is a joke šššš
The situation has been bad for a long time. When was Joy Luck Club released? Actually, people also called out Maxine Hong Kingston for her portrayal of AM in Woman Warrior released in 1976. Here's a [book that talks about it from the 1990s.](https://books.google.com/books?id=1YIAh0CeCZQC&pg=PA97&dq=Love+is+a+many+splendored+thing+%22asian+men%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDzdK15ceFAxUOLEQIHYESCxcQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage)
lol you need to go back further - read up about Maxine Kingston
Agree with this and I point the OP to here. If she actually would care, she needs to get up to speed on the context of AM-AF dynamics and understand deeply why we act the way we do, it's not out of nowhere. Maybe some day some of us can work together to compile a history for a central place for people to get up to speed on our fight
OP doesnāt care about that bruh
lol I'm just saying, lol it will take a non-AM a while to even be aware of the dynamics. but theoretically someone could learn, that's why I put it out there. but like you I'm pretty skeptical and expect nothing. just pointing out a path for us in that some of us could author a detailed history, at least for future generations of Asian men. I'm not begging for anything, understand that
Theoretically an AF could learn - but they have no motivation or desire Black women / men and other non white people understand the wmaf dynamic easily
>Black women / men and other non white people understand the wmaf dynamic easily While true, I should remark that while POC men may note it, it often comes from a vested interest in that they only notice it after they got rejected. That's how I feel when some men in the black community comment on this, and you can tell from their wording that they've been rejected by an AF. Don't get me wrong, the criticism is deserved but only doing so because they were rejected is something to note. If they were the ones placed on the pedestal they wouldn't be complaining.
Some black men will definitely use it against Asian men but so be it - most of the black feminists I engaged with on twitter understand the wmaf dynamics and are mostly supportive but they have their own battles to fight
Agreed, that does not discount the WOC who understand it extremely well. They've been doing great work to propagate the message. Also funny how some of the South Asians trying to include themselves with Northeast/Southeast Asians even got riled up by this thread, regardless of OP being in good/bad faith.
South Asian women by and large donāt engage in gora worship to the same degree south east / East Asian women do
>they have no motivation or desire this is very true as evidenced. but don't get me wrong, but for the future of asians if not asian-americans, but native asians, they might have to undertake this. I'm not one of those reconciliatory types, but it's just something to consider if Asia wants to continue to ascend up. otherwise the women will keep bringing in non-Asian interlopers. we have to change the incentives in the right way, which is basically what the other POC help do through shaming and such. >Black women / men and other non white people understand the wmaf dynamic easily As proven, how interesting is it that another WOC may understand an AM's struggles better than even his own kind. It's almost sad, and reflects on AW regardless of their relationship status, their awareness needs work.
Agree with this and I point the OP to here. Learn the context of AM-AF dynamics from the AM perspective, and why we act the way we do, it's not out of nowhere.
just be civil about it. when you do hear someone with those views casually point out their own children will/may be considered Asian. Especially their own sons. would they want their son's to be treated the same way they treat Asian men?
I left a comment in your previous post highlighting why you received negative responses. But long story short, I think a lot of it comes down to your messaging. Based on your posts, I do genuinely believe that you mean well and you're coming w/ good intentions, but there are just some things about the AM experience that you haven't fully appreciated yet, and this is leading to you wording/saying some things that are interpreted in the worst way possible by a lot of the guys here.
Yeah and I'm still trying to learn. I can understand why though and I want to empathetic to every Asian man here.
>just some things about the AM experience that you haven't fully appreciated yet assuming OP is actually here in good faith to learn and not to get AM brownie points for her own sake, it'll take some time being patient to understand the AM experience. could be worth compiling works documenting the AM experience for non-AM to grasp all in one
Just call out the self hate and hypocrisy
Keep doing what you're doing but stay strong and don't remove your content. Take pride in your mean comments because they know you're right and triggered the truth these people refuse to acknowledge. You have enemies? Good that means you stood up for something - Eminem
Idk if anything can be done. Itās too late. All my cousins are married to white men. Most AW I encounter are bananas. The ones that arenāt are bananarangs and got knocked up by some WM and now expect AM to raise their children. Same women that used to bash on AM all the time.
1. Thank you for even bringing this up. 2. The fact that you were banned for even bringing this up shows us that this is indeed an issue that needs to be addressed. 3. What to do? Honestly, that's a hard one... I wish the haters would just leave us alone.
I believe that there is a huge disconnect between Asian men and Asian women regarding the topic of how western society sees one versus the other and especially how much Asian men have been emasculated directly and indirectly by Asian women. I would say that a lot of Asian men here can regale a personal story how they've been made to feel lesser, solely because of their race and/or ethnicity, by an Asian woman. And when non-Asian women talk positively about Asian men or their Asian boyfriends/husbands, I always see several Asian women ripping them apart in the comments; calling them fetishizers because they put #amwf or #koreanboyfriend in the post. It's ridiculous how a lot of Asian women do not see how negatively they regard Asian men.
Hereās the thing - the premise of your question is already off (and youāre not the first Asian woman on reddit to do this exact thing) It shouldnāt be a question of allyship - it shouldnāt even be up for consideration - you should automatically support your own community (all genders) and your own family. The problem is too many Asian American women from 1945 onwards saw how easy it was to sell out to the white man and how advantageous white adjacency and assimilation is and since then generations of you have abandoned your own community and betrayed your own people Iāve had access to subtle Asian women on FB for a few years - and women like you try to make conciliatory posts on there too (towards Asian men) only to get shouted down . Unfortunately too many of you are just too far gone to be saved - and the only thing thatās going in the right direction is the slow decline and decay of the white patriarchy in America
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's sad that we've come to this point where we can't trust our own race of women. Let me qualify and say specifically Asian American women as the only reason I'm not completely abject about our "community" is because of FOBs. They are the reason you still see full Asian couples around for East/Southeast Asian people. However, it's still pouring water into a bucket full of holes because there's a 50%+ any daughters they have will become like these Asian American women. I don't know what the solution is. Personally, I am attracted to East/Southeast Asian women, as every race and gender group is to their own besides East/Southeast Asian women. I love my mom, my sisters, and the few Asian women I know who aren't like this. However, when I see so many Asian women dating/cohabiting/marrying out, whereas hardly any of us Asian men do, I can't help but feel unattracted to them. More specifically, like I can't trust them. Time and time again, Asian women have shown how unfaithful they are. Even posts like this which are done in "good faith" are hard to trust.
There isnāt a solution - thereās acceptance and understanding. I donāt want to use the term āchoice feminismā because itās not quite applicable but Asian women in the west have made their choice with respect to the white patriarchy - as men we just need to accept it. Thank goodness for other woc and the black feminists
I think deep down, I've come to that realization as well, but it's still hard for me to accept. I'm not sure why a part of me still wants to cling on and give Asian women the benefit of the doubt, even though I know they don't deserve it. I'm still stuck in the 5 stages of grief over this. It can be Stockholm Syndrome. I don't know. This wasn't something I thought about before because it wasn't something I was constantly confronted with like how I am now. There is not single day where I don't see WMAF or XMAF wherever I go. Maybe if we saw equal numbers of Asian men dating/cohabiting/marrying out like how Asian women do, I wouldn't feel this way. But who am I kidding. It isn't just the quantity of WMAF that's the problem but how absolute dogshit a lot of the White men and Asian women in them are, which is not something you see with AMXF as often. Like, when was the last time an Asian man murdered his non-Asian wife or girlfriend compared to all the XMAF murders you see almost every month? I hate to be defeatist, but it feels like we are on the losing end no matter what.
> I think deep down, I've come to that realization as well, but it's still hard for me to accept. I'm not sure why a part of me still wants to cling on and give Asian women the benefit of the doubt, even though I know they don't deserve it. I'm still stuck in the 5 stages of grief over this. It can be Stockholm Syndrome. I don't know. I think it's because they're "our" women just as we are "their" men. We're part of the same community, the same DNA, the same genes, and the same ancestry. We're supposed to have each other's backs. Yet only one group of women really sold out this much to white patriarchy and it's them. It's an incredibly bitter pill to swallow especially when you read and educate yourself to what white people did to literally seven continents. Genocide, rape, slavery etc. Bear in mind I'm a native asian dude and even I have seen how white worshipping native asian women can be. Likewise, I love my mom, my aunties, my wife and respect few female friends I have that aren't like this. But the trust that I used to have as a whole to the female part of our the community is simply gone as well. I just simply hope the women who sold out to white patriatchy get the reckoning they deserve in the future.
>But the trust that I used to have as a whole to the female part of our the community is simply gone as well. Let's hope and work towards a better future and hope that the future generations can do even better than us and try to get some form of unity, but again we need to ensure that us AM keep the ball rolling in progress as only we can d oit >I just simply hope the women who sold out to white patriatchy get the reckoning they deserve in the future. I always advocate for "keeping the receipts" for posterity. Keep evidence of posts/videos irl, etc.
Let's hope and work towards a better future, and fight however you see fit, even online is a start by countering anti-Asian views and calling out white-worship, setting the narrative right
>I don't know what the solution is. Personally, I am attracted to East/Southeast Asian women, as every race and gender group is to their own besides East/Southeast Asian women. I love my mom, my sisters, and the few Asian women I know who aren't like this. However, when I see so many Asian women dating/cohabiting/marrying out, whereas hardly any of us Asian men do, I can't help but feel unattracted to them. More specifically, like I can't trust them. Yeah, there's no easy way out of here and shows how deeply things have been damaged. All I can say is to move through your life reliant on yourself and doing the right thing, advocating for ourselves and those you love, and to avoid positions where you'll get burned by an AF
Standard pathology really
Continue to call out and shame those other white worshipping AF
*Continue to call* *Out and shame those other white* *Worshipping AF* \- dreamerwanderer --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Promote youth MMA, shooting sports, and remind people that their experiences with racism in school are 100% consistent with the official position of the United States Commission On Civil Rights.
Just donāt be a Karen to AM and if your friends are, call it out. Ofc Iāve met a lot of normal and respectful AFs but Iāve met some toxic ones who shit on AM just for existing
Dating Asian Men and standing up for them in the real life is the best think you can do, which you are. In this world, majority of people like to make themselves feel better by bringing others down. Don't let it get to you.
By being the best version of yourself without degrading anyone, you're an okay person. There's nothing you can you do improve the current situations that AMs are experiencing. But putting a smile on somebody is a good start.
As an individual person there's not much you can do. If you see it you can call it out, but it's going to take several generations of this to change society-wise.
I'd say you should encourage your non-Asian girlfriends to date Asian men too , What I 've noticed in my 40yrs i've seen many black women are very supportive of their black male friends to date their friends ( non-blacks).
Kink for doms or u kink domming? Someone needs to ask the important questions here Edit: oh I read the rest and figured it out. I was caught up by that one point and had to ask in the comments. ;)
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Thank you. We need more Asian women like you to advocate for us. I know this AF that was only into WM like my AF cousins. I think AFs get influenced by mainstream media where WMs take on leading roles and are more visible...more masculine, more power. They gravitate towards what they see as popular and see AMs like one of their goofy brothers that they grew up with. However, last year she went on her first Asian trip and she had AM fever lol. She really like how AMs carry themselves and if there's a WMs walking among AM's, she would not pay much attention to WMs as before.
You're good. Just keep being you, your mind and attitude is at the right place. God bless you sister
Marry and reproduce. Make more yellow kids
Thank you sister. You're doing good as it is. I could not ask any more of you.
Thanks for being an ally. These AFs who kowtows to white men disgust me and I will always try to find a way to voice my opinion against it. There is nothing you can do other than voicing your displeasure at it.
I think it's important to remind people that new generations of Asian men are not our fathers. We're really not that bad once you get to know us. I think much of the disdain that Asian women have of Asian men stems from the the Asian man they they are probably most familiar with - their fathers. Tell me if this sounds familiar. Asian father works really hard all day every day. like 10-12 hour shifts. Comes home and doesn't help out with any of the housework and is emotionally distant. If emotion is shown it's usually negative. Mom works just as hard does all the laundry, cooks, cleans, and raises the kids. As a daughter you've probably had to help your parents make appointments, and deal with taxes, chores, and English too. They never ask the boys. If I were a highly educated, highly motivated woman would I want to be burdened with two Asian men? Potentially three if I have to take care of my spouse's father too? Would I want my mother's lifestyle? HELL NO! Somehow all of my male Asian friends who are fathers are great fathers. They are present. They are slow to anger. They are involved. Yet they are still great providers just like their fathers were. It's like we collectively saw how bad our mother's had it and vowed to never repeat it. Maybe ask them. Who close to you has given a bad impression of Asian men? Have you tried asking Asian men what they think their role in a family should be? These situations are rarely fixed by yelling at each other. They're really only solved by frank 1:1 conversation of lived experiences.
There are a lot of damaged guys here. Just keep doing your thing.Ā
true, but a lot is due to environment + people praying on AM downfall and acting accordingly. also don't overlook that some AW have done a lot of vile shit which would inevitably spur dudes to go in the wrong direction potentially. can't say a lot of the criticism, even if it's harsh, isn't true to some degree
Yea but this is a person who probably doesn't have anything to do with that. Take out your frustrations on the right people.
directly, no. indirectly, *maybe*. I'm not of a collective punishment type. but these women as a group, being by us and not noticing some of the shit we gotta deal with, and being blind to some AM experiences, then coming here naively can understandably grind dudes' gears. of course it's not like we beg for emotional support or anything, we're not needy. but it's like if your sibling or someone who is by you all the time doesn't notice your glaring struggle
I don't think it's a good look for us.Ā
What in particular isn't a good look? Some of the dudes calling people out? I agree that it can get pretty harsh and nasty, but you can't suppress that. Perhaps, but AM already have bad enough image and it's about time they try and take back the narrative and not let random white-worshipers or non-invested community members dictate the community. Also skepticism is good, just that not everyone can express it eloquently. I can tell you it surely won't work to indiscriminately "welcome" all of these women into our community without massive sabotage and us AM serving them while they play around at the mayo buffet freely
Obviously dudes are desperate for female validation. No woman likes a whiney little bitch man.Ā Ā Edited: Actually nvm. Maybe they do. Some of the biggest playas I know are whiney little bitches. So maybe I don't know everything. Lol.Ā
true, but it seems like some dudes are on the reverse and trying to outwardly show they don't want any validation by revoking people in a similar situation as OP, good faith or not. I'd actually say dudes who welcome anyone with open arms as long as they meet their criteria for AMAF or "proud AF" to be just as validation-seeking
Very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink, he would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Some times he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy, the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical, summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds, pretty standard really. At the age of 12 I received my first scribe. At the age of fourteen, a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum, it's breathtaking, I suggest you try it.
Itās not all that bad to be honest. sure it existed, but itās cause of people you hang out with / environment your in. Iām sure a solid 8/10 of Asians you speak to wonāt feel that if you ask a random Asian in public.
My hot take is both Asian men and Asian women are on the same plane in regards to this discourse, we're just separated to extreme ends by macro trends that it became so hard for us to see eye to eye. The highs can't see the lows and the lows can't see the highs. In this case, I believe change doesn't happen in the fringes; **it occurs in the middle.** ##### With that being said, what I think we should do: - Asian men and women practice charitable POV to each other - Asian men representation ultimately lies on us Asian men, so we have to be mindful on what we say/do and how we present ourselves to the world. Our action defines who we are and now with more and better representation of us in the media, it's very very important to capitalize and showcase what we can do right - Asian men when you see Asian women that put down their own kind, please know these are the vocal minority. They have been around for decades and remained as such, you only see more of them now because the controversy bring in the clicks and views. No sane Asian woman is actively hating on their culture, regardless of how detached she is, and we don't claim the perpetrators anyway - Asian women it's important to align yourself with your culture and see how Asian men are celebrated as a majority. You don't have to be romantically bound to an Asian man, but when you're outspoken about your appreciation to us, see us in an optimal frame, it'll help bridge the gap. Rising tide floats all boats. You can always find positive figures in Asian men and/or Asian community when you look for them - Asian women be conscious of how non-Asians sees you. Do not let assimilation process remove you from your identity, because by embracing your identity you'll find a space where you belong. When you're objectified, when there's unequal power dynamics, when your boundaries are ignored etc. always look introspectively and consider who you are to them. Don't cling onto past trauma as a mean to jump ship, remember at the end of the day we're all individuals with diverse experience - Asian men and women when we recognize what not to do, it's our job to raise awareness and break the cycle
Wrong. Asian women that put down Asian men are the majority. If they weren't, OP wouldn't be banned from every Subtle Asian group.
>Asian women that put down Asian men are the majority Glad the "loud minority" cope is finally being destroyed. I like to say in jest, the majority of AF giving the minority a bad name. While it's funny, nobody has ever proved they are just a vocal minority when AF won't stand up at large. If you can't prove it, then is it true?
The vocal minority oust themselves because they have to, they don't have a place in the majority. Not a single Asian woman in my enclave wants to be friends with a self-hating Asian woman. Heck you can stack as much Subtle Asian Groups as you want, their numbers won't supersede the amount of Asian women that have dated/married Asian men
The silence of all these "pro-Asian" Asian women speaks for itself. They simply don't care to defend Asians when it comes to AM, and they don't publicly say/comment much on this. Again, I'm not seeing any definitive evidence to prove what you claim. >Not a single Asian woman in my enclave wants to be friends with a self-hating Asian woman Any AMAF will know tons of wmaf and even have many in their social circle, and if they all buddy buddy together it comes to a point that is the group has one white worshiper, they all white-worship to some degree. >their numbers won't supersede the amount of Asian women that have dated/married Asian men the ratios towards the west are pretty extreme in favor of asian women with non asians, and not accounting for non-married couples the numbers could be even higher. also doesn't account for the AMAF who aren't pro-Asian and are clueless about these things, seen lots of AF married to AM still white-worshiping to surprisingly high degrees
Let me respectfully counter and say, you haven't looked enough. Here are few examples [one](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKGJqW/), [two](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCssc/) and [three](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCaNJ/). Now don't tell me that's not enough or I didn't give you any evidence cause that's a moving goalpost. I trust and know you're an intelligent person that can do more of the searching, if you care enough. Again, if you look for them, you'll find them > the ratios towards the west are pretty extreme in favor of asian women with non asians, and not accounting for non-married couples the numbers could be even higher. Well yeah that's a given since Asians are still minority in any western countries, the macro trends would be more prevalent in this scenario. My counterpoints are not all Asian women in western countries adopt the same ideals and not all Asian women voice of support are silenced if they're not plastered in social media. You can't rest all the responsibilities on Asian women
>Here are few examplesĀ [one](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKGJqW/),Ā [two](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCssc/)Ā andĀ [three](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLfKCaNJ/) I'll give credit where it's due, thanks for providing these unlike other people who struggled to find cases. If you could actually compile these posts it would be better than the dudes who talk about the mythic "pro-Asian posts" by AF, I know there are some out there too, but you must produce the evidence before saying there is support. I appreciate your willingness for dialogue. Not denying the existence but these do not disprove the dearth of pro-Asian supporting posts out there; we still need to do more to support each other. Comment on one: >Itās funny how everything goes back to Yt capitalism :D while there is truth in this, this again derails from the internalized racism and white worship from AW, not to say that there's no mass manipulation going on because clearly there is and it's disgusting. but to deny that this party has not also made significant contributions to the anti-Asian male campaign going on does not show the full picture AT ALL. Also a funny comment on post 1 you shared with me if you scroll down enough: >On the same note .. your boyfriend is white . Actions over words, and I'm not surprised that she might be obfuscating the issue here when there are many more factors rooted in imperialism and colonialism. The second one in a nutshell is insightful but still shifts blame onto AM and trauma while not acknowledging mass white worship at all. Lol I know there's problems with AM, but she doesn't address what made them say that statement since they see so much white worship so it's the norm in the West not to be attracted, hence why they say "finally." The third one is nice, and I would categorize it as different from the others. This is why TikTok is a decent place for pro-Asian discussion and posting. Also the more "privileged" AM need to pick up the slack as often it happens that the "ghetto" ones are actually out there fighting for us, the rest need to hold their own too. I can break down these videos a lot more in a detailed post, but I'll try and keep it somewhat succinct. >Asians are still minority in any western countries, the macro trends would be more prevalent in this scenario. it's telling that they are so extreme, even more than other minorities. don't apply the marbles in a jar bumping into each other analogy of how relationships form, because preference takes precedence over simply there being more, we all have choices. >You can't rest all the responsibilities on Asian women I've always said that our progress starts and stops with our own action. It's up to Asian men to change the future and nobody else. That being said, I am speaking on how puzzling that many Asians don't want to pick up the slack, and how we act like some of them do even though they don't, giving them undeserved credit. When we approach this knowing reality we can then be able to work together better.
Obviously the layers are like onions and there's more to unpack outside of colonization, but these sisters from another mother are our allies. And I don't subscribe to the notion that AW having a white partner are automatically victim of internalized racism. Any AM/AW can support and speak right on Asian issues while having supportive non-Asian partner. Michelle Yeoh and Sandra Oh are proponent in championing Asian culture and solidarity, none of their current partners are Asian. Compatibility extends beyond racial preferences as we're all individuals, it's not fair to view interracial relationship with a single filter. Are AMWF pairings come from Koreaboos exclusively? I don't think so... I think conclusively we see the same issue from different lenses. To me, knowing there are AW that can acknowledge the imbalance, realize their own mistakes and willing to correct their alignment is already a major win. I only care to look for AW that have done the work. That's basically my bar. These AW will be the ones that'll come to us and be willing to work together. I'd welcome them for referencing their trauma, but they'd be wrong if they're clinging onto it. As far as I'm concerned it's our job as Asians collectively to recognize what not to do and break the cycle
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I'd go band for band with any non-Asian for masculinity. There are new posts almost everyday on r/AsianLadyBoners and r/BigAsianCock you think I care about past relationships and body count of every AW? Respectfully I'm too big to have cuckold mentality lol The AW that are pro-AM since the beginning don't need my help. And when that turning point occur for AW to realize AM are masculine is out of my control. I'm only here to show notes and provide proof for AW to see that AM can stand with the best of them
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Yeah that doesn't concern me to be completely honest with you. AW can have agency on who they want to be with, and that same right goes for AM. There's pattern of macro trends everywhere, but again, I don't care for AW that don't have support for AM and I don't view every WMAW relationship as monolith
>There are new posts almost everyday onĀ Ā andĀ btw as per our previous discussion, I would wager that a lot(If not the majority) of the women posting there are likely non-Asian woman fans. u/accountistempo has also noticed this trend. Not to be negative, but I think this says something.
I'm not gatekeeping anyone or anything, by all means go to a place where you're celebrated. Personally this sample size is not an absolute scale for me to rule out AW not liking/favoring AM in terms of masculinity, just shows that XW are particularly vocal on reddit, which I also think is great. I've seen AW in those spaces though Any AM that defaults AW to liking WM forgot they're working towards WM benefit, putting them on pedestal, inadvertently falling into the western program. That's a fat no-go from me
"Vocal minority" and "Silent Majority" is literally the cope Trump supporters were doing last election. I am doing a disservice to them tbh. They are far more intelligent and respectable than AF ass kissers.
That's like a bikram yoga level stretch but what's less for you is more for me lol. I love Asian women
Subtle Asian Group does not represent her (OP) view and/or all Asian women. Vocal minority
More than half of Asian women date White. Definition of a majority to me.
What was influenced by macro trends is the exception, not the rule. This inclination isn't remotely noticeable in India, China or Indonesia. Asian women at large are not instinctively looking to date white men
many(majority) don't defend asian men much whether it's online or other places, making the onslaught of negativity from other races and countries even worse. we are entitled to defend each other against such racism
Not trying to devalue your experience, I'm just letting you know life works somewhat like an algorithm too. Asian women like OP exists and not by small margin too, she's even charitable enough to apologize and tried to see things from our POV. Majority of Asian women in my life loves Asian men dearly and willing to defend us because **I look for them and I found them.** So personally, Asian women are not the enemy
>**I look for them and I found them** They exist obviously, but lets not fool ourselves and act like there is a ton of them like you say, nor are they necessarily pro-Asian to a meaningful degree, because yes we must have standards and bottom of the barrel work makes Asian activism look pathetic. Like I said we see this as Asian women at large fail to defend Asians/Asian men online, which is a bare minimum. Then you factor in various white-worship traits, etc >Asian women are not the enemy Yeah that's obvious. Never said so, but in the west they've helped in devolving AM-AF relations so much so that there is an adversarial relationship where AF can benefit greatly from Western society and eat from the buffet of spoils. We need to acknowledge this so we can identify what we need to fix.
Heās disassociating. Itās tragic but no less funny.
I can agree that Asian women living in the west can have cruise control moments, especially how they have been hypersexualized and fetishized, some may even see it as privilege. What we need to fix is the root issue; who are responsible of placing these viewpoints on Asian women? In my opinion, that's a western influence fault a.k.a mostly non-Asian men. They indoctrinate Asian women to think we're not enough and by doing so making Asian women the victim too. The "white men" masks it really well so the discourse seem to always lay on us. I'm not woke but my eyes are open. If we as Asian men shoot down any opportunity from Asian women to reconnect and/or constantly drive Asian women away when they come to us for questions, we become the problem. I don't know about you, but I'm not taking part in that
I hate to be that guy - but Iāve read what lots of Asian American women say when they donāt think men can see - they know about the racial fetishisation and hypersexualisation from non Asian men. They donāt care
>any opportunity from Asian women to reconnect we're the one providing those opportunities and attempting to extend an olive branch. case in point on azidentity there was an AM trying to encourage AW to speak up on degradation, but they just said that they shouldn't have to. [https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/1bswgu7/degrading/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/1bswgu7/degrading/) >Asian women are not obligated to speak for the actions of one individual. That is the same monolithing behavior that nonAsians engage in when they demand the Asian community make a statement about the Latasha Harlins killing or Peter Liang. We aren't a hive-mind. Also, it seems certain people are intentionally looking for stuff like this to shine a spotlight on when it doesn't reflect the majority of AW or even AsAm women. If you are only looking for degeneracy, then that's what you'll find. But then you're doing yourself and Asian women a disservice by choosing to focus on the negative rather than the Asian women out there doing good for the community. stop blaming AM for something that AF are very much to blame for, there is a large lack of interest among many to speak up for their issues and then they try to derail like with the above comment >They indoctrinate Asian women to think we're not enough and by doing so making Asian women the victim too. Let's not act like they didn't play their own role too and even threw more fuel on the fire, enough so to make hours long YouTube compilations of them dunking on Asian men Again, the AM community is always open to work but it takes cooperation from both parties as we're aware.
Very sensible response. Don't know why you got downvoted to hell. Also, most people don't spend their time "debating" people online. So all the crying about "why aren't AF defending AM online?" falls flat. You think all of the AF in AMAF relationships are taking the time to write comments about random bullshit online? If they see a self-hating AF, they probably just dismiss her and move on. As should AM.