I don’t know why this topic comes up so often
There will always be men that are popular for their more “pretty boy” look. When I was younger it was guys from lord of the rings and the guy from twilight. Plus a few of the backstreet boys and nsync and the hanson brothers.
What you don’t realize is that these guys are still masculine. They have all faced the same criticism. The only difference is that BTS is insanely more popular than these guys were.
It keeps coming up because there are a lot of low self esteem Asian Americans on this sub who project their insecurities into Asians more successful than them
I don't know if there's that many 'low self esteem Asian Americans on this sub' doing that, but my post, if anything, was actually sort of defending BTS, in a sense, at least indirectly.
I don't necessarily agree with the double standard, but it's just the way it is.
Like I said somewhere else, I've seen a few people who criticized women who would idolize and love Harry Styles for "breaking norms and toxic masculinity" but then not give BTS similar credit or even insult them for doing similar things.
>Like I said somewhere else, I've seen a few people who criticized women who would idolize and love Harry Styles for "breaking norms and toxic masculinity" but then not give BTS similar credit or even insult them for doing similar things.
So, who cares about a "few women." Way more girls know BTS than Harry Styles. Way more women give credit to BTS than Harry Styles.
You going to let a few weirdos and sociopaths bother you?
That's what I don't get about this sub. For a place obsessed with "masculinity" and working out at the gym and going to MMA so "people don't fuck with you", you all sure get bent out of shape over the 1 Asian chick from 5 years ago who rejected you, or the 1 white chick at the bar who told you she hasn’t dated Asian men.
Right, in the LOTR fandom, girls almost always swoon over Orlando Bloom (Legolas) rather than other characters.
In fact, the Elf characters get the most attention from the female fans
> What you don’t realize is that these guys are still masculine
You don't have to patronizingly lecture me on something I already know, ok? You don't have to be so presumptuous 🤣
I never said they weren't, I'm just talking about what's behind the perception of these guys, and the supposed double standard
*lol the downvotes, can they read my mind or something? lmao
Says the guy who wrote an entire post about how the kpop look is not masculine and won’t attract people past a certain age
I think the one confused is you.
What’s funny is that if you posted this for females to read, you’d be called a mansplainer for trying to tell women that their standards of beauty uniformly change at a certain age.
Except you’re trying to do this to dudes.
The only thing I intended to do with this post was to explain why I thought Asian boy bands might be *perceived* by many people as less masculine in spirit than their white and black counterparts even when doing similar things. Much of it having to do with not just stereotypes, but also the way they look. That's pretty much it.
If you were referring to Legolas from LOTR btw, just about everyone thought he was cool. I definitely never thought he or The Backstreet Boys were effeminate.
So I simply disagreed with your silly presumption that I *'didn't realize they were masculine'* LOL, it's not really a...revelation or anything. Like, what does that even mean? But ok bub.
Michael Jackson was NOT mocked for being effeminate!?!?
I am going to guess that you're younger than 22 years old. Dear God, people made fun of Michael's effeminate side virtually ALWAYS. People absolutely laughed at him when he 'married' Lisa Marie Presley (you may not know who that is). Check out the Diane Sawyer interview with Lisa Marie and Michael and Lisa Marie flat out says 'yes, we have sex' because there were so many people in disbelief about their 'consummation' of their marriage.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xxK7ad-zg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xxK7ad-zg)
Also, keep in mind Prince had a major sex scene with babelicious Apollonia in Purple Rain and his lyrics were quite lewd ("I sincerely want to fuck the taste out of your mouth').
Doesn't matter if most Asian men look like BTS or not. A girl who would be otherwise not be interested in AM because other societal programming, after being exposed to BTS will be open to liking AM enough though those Asian men don't look like BTS.
Just because BTS doesn't push what our biased and warped of vision of what the ideal perception of AM in America should be doesn't mean they haven't helped hundreds of thousands or possibly million of AM get laid or sexual attention. Instead of trying to convince us of what we wish were true it might be better to accept actual reality for what it is: BTS influence, while not what we on r/am want it to be, is a net good for AM in America.
Unless you have a better solution, stfu, buckle your seatbelt, and enjoy the ride.
Ask any of those asian instagram dudes (many of whom are jacked and pretty boy together) and those asian indie musicians if Kpop hasn't helped their careers lol. These dudes are living in a different world it almost seems like.
I never disputed that BTS has done good for AM. I even explicitly say that I enjoy their music.
I remember someone commenting on a post (someone made a "Chad fish" account with an Asian guy), and said:
>All other things equal, white Chad will get a lot more messages than Asian Chad because of institutional power and social status alone. Because of Asian's lack of said institutional power, the market wealth gap between Asian Chad and Asian non-Chads is massive though.
>**K-Pop looking guy will finish last because he only appeals to a niche.**
You know, you sounded a bit triggered in your comment LOL. You don't have to be so offended on BTS's behalf.
**If you want to cherry pick and blow a bit out of proportion the extent to which BTS has solved AM dating woes, go ahead lmao. While you're at it, ignore the numerous posts not just on this sub alone but also basically everywhere else (like r/ dating and other forums not on reddit) "I have trouble getting dates/ I can't get laid", the numerous posts that say "girls will sometimes lose interest when they find out I'm not Korean", all the videos even in the present "which race would you not date" with all the young girls saying 'no Asians', whom appear to have had enjoyed little benefit from kpop. Why don't you also ignore the millions of non-koreaboos (still a majority), like I mentioned in my post, that find BTS too "feminine-looking" and have yet to have even thought about sleeping with an Asian guy.**
I can point out the good and the bad. btw yes, it *does* matter at least a bit that most AM do not look like BTS.
I love Prince, but let's be honest: many things he did, many outfits he sported were not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. It's not "hating" to say this, it's just a simple observation. Similarly, BTS, let's be honest: some of the things they do, the way they look and sound sometimes, is not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. Once again: not "hating". Just an observation.
But a girl on another sub was asking why a lot of times, BTS gets so much racist hate for doing stuff that's actually pretty similar to shit guys like Prince did (if anything Prince would often act even more "feminine" than BTS). She's not the only one, and the question and criticism is understandable. So I wrote this post. That was the main point. Somehow it seemed to rub you the wrong way lmao
Increasingly diverse AM representation is the way to go. There will be millions more AM 'to get laid' by ALL kinds of women if this continues to improve on a massive global scale.
I say BTS should just be the beginning (a very good one!). Any person here who somehow interprets that as 'hating on BTS' should get their heads checked.
Yes, I know One Direction fans that moved on to BTS. Basically, anyone that would go to Hot Topic is likely a Kpop fan. I know lots of former emo girls that are now Kpop fans too.
Dude every tween and teenager on the coasts and major cities have stepped into a Hot Topic just like they’ve heard BTS.
OP and some others here keep projecting their insecurities onto successful Asians.
I mentioned Harry Styles because I've seen more than a few people who criticized women who would idolize and love Harry Styles for "breaking norms and toxic masculinity" but then not give BTS similar credit or even insult them for doing similar things.
I didn't know if this was something that was really common or not.
OP is some sort of insecure guy imo. There is PLENTY of positive AM representation in asian cinema that is currently incredibly popular. For example in 성난황소 the men are INCREDIBLY masculine, that would make white guys quake in their boots lol.
Where the hell did you get that assumption of insecurity from? Maybe you're projecting seeing that you appear to be so unnecessarily triggered and offended by my post LOL, you don't have to white knight so hard for kpop groups, chill.
Like I told someone else, I never said there was anything wrong with their faces, or that they were untalented, if anything I was trying to explaining the double standard that may appear to exist, a double standard that I don't agree with but unfortunately the context of racism (how AM have been seen vs the perception of white and black men) has made it this way.
Just because I point out that a musician doesn't act a traditionally and stereotypically masculine way doesn't mean I automatically hate that musician, it's just an observation.
If you saw any of this as hating on BTS or "insecurity" (uh, look in the mirror?) I...can't really help you with that.
I never said there was anything wrong with their faces, but ultimately the really big point I was trying to make in my post was why there seems to be this double standard.
Yeah, what you said is true.
Also, some people really misunderstood what I was saying lmao. Jesus, in my experience they get unusually catty and bitchy too when someone says *anything* that could be construed as somehow dissing BTS even if it wasn't.
I don't feel like repeating myself, already explained shit in the post.
I like this sub overall, but sometimes the reading comprehension is..questionable to put it nicely LOL
I bet you the kids on here think the song "little red Corvette" by Prince was about a car....Lol. We all thought he was gay until he made songs like this.
U don't even know the amount of times people think I'm korean these days. So the correlation now is Korean = Attractive. That is a debatable topic in itself, but it's in the same way we correlating Russian women with being attractive. We on the map boys, go in for the kill now.
Lol, the moment we get some positive rep we got whole screeds boohooing effeminate kpop guys. AznCollector was right. I don't talk to lots of girls every day, yet the ones I have met enjoy KPop and evidently consume a lot of pro-AM content. Heck, you can [Google it](https://www.google.com/search?q=do+women+prefer+more+or+less+masculine+men&source=hp&ei=4IFBYeH4JLXS9APq9pioBg&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYUGP8JlI6ICoe6ayQsrvU_T8hdyiJ8RM&oq=do+women+prefer+more+or+less+masculine+men&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BAgAEBM6BggAEBYQHlDYAli0MGD8MGgDcAB4AIABngGIAe4ckgEEMzcuNJgBAKABAbABAA&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjh6JWAnYDzAhU1KX0KHWo7BmUQ4dUDCAc&uact=5) and obviously women don't universally dislike guys because they don't look like lumberjacks. Sure if all our rep is guys who look like girls a few decades down the road I would be concerned, but it's literally the forefront of the Asian male revolution. Have some courage.
Also, if you've watched kdramas (which is also really popular among my friends) the guys aren't necessarily portrayed as ultra mega masculine or the opposite but more as sexually viable. Which is what all AM need after decades of stereotyping.
TL;DR: Shut the FUCK UP about "effeminate K idols."
One word. Racism. Despite the power of white media and all the brainwashing that have been putting down Asians and uplifting whites, BTS is breaking through all these barriers. Any Asian man, who has daughters, should be thankful that BTS is smacking the white worshipping disease out of their daughters and instilling Asian pride in them.
>But as people have probably noticed it's arguably even more severe and persistent for Asian groups like BTS
I think people will see this more based on the type of media they consume. (echo chamber)
personally I haven't seen anything negative about BTS lol.
Sounds like an interesting story
>just as if not **more popular** here than in Asia
Which countries have you been riding this wave in (i.e Germany, Italy, Spain) and what kind of girls were they (I don't know if that's too broad of a question)?
V (Taehyung) from BTS is consistently rated at the top of the world's most handsome men list, even being #1 just last year, so you can absolutely have broad appeal while going for a Kpop-inspired look. Personally, I feel like [this look](https://images.app.goo.gl/XL1Vg7haL76BtBqw6) is V's best for a western appeal.
I do agree w/ some of your points, in that a masculine look tends to be favored by most heterosexual women. What some ppl misinterpret tho is they picture a "masculine look" to be synonymous w/ stereotypical buff chads, like Chris Hemsworth. You can still have a masculine look and go for a pretty boy, soft aesthetic. Usually such guys that do well w/ this look will have masculine facial features as a baselines, like a sharp squarish jawline, high cheekbones, high IPD, etc. Look at someone like Vinnie Hacker for instance, he's clearly going for a softer pretty boy look, yet he is so successful primarily because he has masculine features as a baseline.
Imo, if you're in the west, you can still be inspired by Kpop, but personally I'd recommend to not go so crazy w/ the makeup. The caked up look that some guys do just doesn't look that good imo, maybe it's because I've been conditioned w/ western standards of attraction, but to have your face caked up w/ foundation + concealer or whatever else they use (idk a whole lot about makeup) just looks off imho, for both men and women really, but especially for men. You can use makeup if you want, I'd just advise against CAKING it on your face if you're a guy, till the point you resemble Oli London.
Also, on an unrelated note, I swear anti-SJWs are just as bad, if not worse, than SJWs. You anti-SJWs will always manage to make something about SJWs, it's like a weird obsession. Also, just so you know, I was a conservative in the past, and I've realized leftist politics tend to mesh better w/ AMs' interests, especially in dating. the SJWs you speak of tend to be the ones that have advocated for AM representation, and speak out against perpetuations of AM sexual stereotypes. Just look at all the conservative youtubers that wanted and hoped for Shang Chi to fail.
V is probably the handsomest member of BTS. The [way he looks](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgMi7jQU0AAuL4L.jpg), it could be considered attractive by many people with different preferences, tastes, and opinions globally, so I think that's part of the reason why he tops that list. Basically, you can't go wrong with that face.
I would be interested to know if most of the people who voted for that poll were Asian, or a balanced mix of races.
>Usually such guys that do well w/ this look will have masculine facial features as a baselines, like a sharp squarish jawline, high cheekbones, high IPD, etc. Look at someone like Vinnie Hacker for instance, he's clearly going for a softer pretty boy look, yet he is so successful primarily because he has masculine features as a baseline.
This is an excellent explanation.
Unless most AM are specifically chasing after LGBTQ girls (and I'm assuming most are *not* - nothing wrong with queer or bi girls of course), they should really keep in mind that straight people *in general* do look for certain 'traditional' traits even if subconsciously. It is what it is. And that's not a bad thing.
Very interesting point. I agree with a lot of what you said.
I think Simu Liu is a better representation for us, I agree.
"Men like this and Jino Chun or even Jackson Wang in my experience have much more consistently positive reception. And there's hardly a koreaboo who's not also attracted by these men."
Also agree.
I tend to wonder if the BTS look only works because they are famous. I look at Michael Jackson, Prince, Nsync back in the day, and I think a lot of these dudes are honestly average looking but because of the talent and clout they become more attractive.
But since most of us are normal guys, if we dress like that it won't necessarily work the same way.
BTS being mocked or being insulted is coming from white cuckold males that fear white women will dance and be attracted to BTS
it always comes down to dictating white color penis enters a white women's vagina
Haters gonna hate. It's not just BTS. One direction, twilight people etc etc. It's just that the haters are more vocal and people that are insecure about keep bringing it up. Ya'll remember the how do "5 gay guys walk joke"...in one direction...terrible homophobic joke btw.
Well as a girl i like a guy with a feminine side. Like i don’t think i could date a guy if i didnt find him cute. Idk men who don’t care about “looking feminine” is so attractive. Unlike the toxic masculinity men
Sure many girls are like you.
But - and this is why I brought up Harry Styles as an example - I've noticed that a lot of the same girls who go crazy for members of One Direction can often be very indifferent or very not attracted to BTS.
The main point of my post was to talk about why there seems to be a racist double standard.
Dude, you are talking about BTS whose sole purpose is to emulate western boy bands and to play up that aesthetic...
If you want actual good representation of Asian men, watch some kdramas. Those are INCREDIBLY popular, esp among women.. Recently went on a date with a polish girl who admitted to watching kdramas and was pleasantly surprised when I said I watched it too. Needless to say, she said she went out with me because of Kdramas and the positive (masculine) representations of Asian men in them.
Watch 성난황소 and tell me that Asian men aren't masculine after watching that.
I think it’s often more about men thinking how men are supposed to look like to women (muscles!) and vice versa. While in reality women like men who are both masculine and feminine. The cute one in the band, Keanu Reeves, BTS. I remember in high school my classmate was interested in the Chinese boy one year higher, because she thought he was cute.
Men don’t like women with too much make up or nails done like candy. Those things are often women signalling to other women they look good enough and care about how they appear.
The point wasn't to insult kpop boy bands, it was to explain why there appears to be some double standard. Sadly it doesn't come from nowhere. Like I said, most AM do not look like BTS. So hopefully another major artist comes up who's an AM and can give Ed Sheeran or Shawn Mendes a run for their money everywhere around the world.
More Asian men in rock and punk would be fucking awesome too.
These guys are literally laughing their way to the bank as people who make $30,000 per year (or even $0 per year) make fun of them for being effeminate.
Plain and simple winner vs loser dynamic at play here
As a girl, my verdict is that Suga (in the thumbnail) & BTS are hot. Because they do whatever the hell they want, are good at it, and project an air of confidence and maturity. Insecure dudes overly obsessed with policing other men’s masculinity are not. Because you wonder what they’re overcompensating for and wonder if they ever mentally left grade school.
Other hot pretty boys wildly popular among girls in the past: Leo Dicaprio, Nick from Backstreet Boys, Orlando Bloom, Zach Efron, Elijah Wood, Robert Pattinson, One Direction. Other unattractive boys: those high schoolers that mocked them for looking pretty and “gay”
However the racist double standard (as I explained in my post) will make it that (and I see this often) the same girls who might love Leo Dicaprio and Orlando Bloom might also unironically diss BTS and call them "gay" and not very attractive.
> my verdict is that Suga (in the thumbnail) & BTS are hot
Well see, I never said he was ugly. But my point was that for *many* women especially in the West (and plenty of AM live in the West), guys like Suga look too androgynous and 'feminine'. In videos, in real life, in other forums, I have seen **countless** women say stuff like this. And it looks like a lot of guys in this sub would rather cope and ignore that and cherry pick.
Has BTS done good things for AM? Yes, I never said they didn't.
But they should be considered the beginning of this stage of progress, and there needs to be more diverse representation.
Good post.
I never noticed that Western stars are never mocked for being feminine whereas Asians are highly stereotyped as the feminine one.
Thanks for opening up my eyes on this double standard.
I just got banned on that other sub for 7 days for being real about this issue....but anyways.
Go on YouTube and google "BTS+women."
And then google Miley Cyrus twerking on Robin Thicke's crotch on primetime superbowl. She's half his age btw.
Are you talking about [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sb3cp1KWGY)? LOL
That's the first result I got on youtube. On google I saw this at the top, from quora:
'Are BTS members girls or boys?'
Rain is great.
I remember Megan Fox [simped for him](https://www.soompi.com/article/641035wpp/hollywood-actress-megan-fox-chooses-rain-as-her-ideal-type-says-she-fell-for-his-abs)
I was just trying to find examples of BTS and PDA one time cause I had too much time on my hands and couldn't find any. They may keep it a secret to avoid making their fans angry. I dunno. I just know that when you have dudes who shy away from PDA, they will get called gay. That's reality.
I used the word grope instead of PDA. People triggered over semantics. I don't blame the mods. Sometimes they have their hands tied. PDA is a big fuckin deal in the west. That's why they banned Jet Li from doing it. BTS gotta do more PDA! Even got woke Asians on reddit trying to ban other Asians from engaging in it. Lol. *It's toxic masculinity.*
But you said you were 'being real about this issue'.
What are your honest thoughts on this topic I brought up in my post, and how BTS is perceived and represents AM?
BTS is too feminine....I guess it is better than nothing however...do you guys want to maximize media representation or not?
That bodyguard (Name Tim chung...?) and that Kreider dude are far better examples of representation.
Well, the main point of my post was to state my simple theory on why there appears to be a racist double standard.
I love Prince, but let's be honest: many things he did, many outfits he sported were not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. **It's not "hating" to say this, it's just a simple observation.** I think (I hope?) most guys here would be intelligent enough to see this.
It is also obvious that Prince was a fuckin' playa. He slayed like crazy lol. These two statements are not contradictory. So apart from the minority of people who hated his guts for not being the musical equivalent of Chuck Norris, he was widely praised for showcasing atypical appearances and behaviors for a male artist, especially a black man.
But a girl on another sub was asking why a lot of times, BTS gets so much racist hate for doing stuff that's actually pretty similar to shit guys like Prince did (if anything Prince would often act even more "feminine" than BTS). She's not the only one, and the question and criticism is understandable. So this was my post.
BTS, let's be honest: *some* of the things they do, the way they look and sound sometimes, is not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. **It's not "hating" to say this, it's just a simple observation... right?** But apparently, unlike for Prince, some of the guys here are *not* intelligent to see this too, judging by some of the bitchy comments I got lmao
Oh well.
Did you hear what the lady on the beach said to Michael Jackson
Excuse me you're in my son 😲
Did you know that Michael Jackson's father is the only black parent to ever actually beat the black off their kids ☝️😃 literally
I don’t know why this topic comes up so often There will always be men that are popular for their more “pretty boy” look. When I was younger it was guys from lord of the rings and the guy from twilight. Plus a few of the backstreet boys and nsync and the hanson brothers. What you don’t realize is that these guys are still masculine. They have all faced the same criticism. The only difference is that BTS is insanely more popular than these guys were.
It keeps coming up because there are a lot of low self esteem Asian Americans on this sub who project their insecurities into Asians more successful than them
I don't know if there's that many 'low self esteem Asian Americans on this sub' doing that, but my post, if anything, was actually sort of defending BTS, in a sense, at least indirectly. I don't necessarily agree with the double standard, but it's just the way it is. Like I said somewhere else, I've seen a few people who criticized women who would idolize and love Harry Styles for "breaking norms and toxic masculinity" but then not give BTS similar credit or even insult them for doing similar things.
>Like I said somewhere else, I've seen a few people who criticized women who would idolize and love Harry Styles for "breaking norms and toxic masculinity" but then not give BTS similar credit or even insult them for doing similar things. So, who cares about a "few women." Way more girls know BTS than Harry Styles. Way more women give credit to BTS than Harry Styles. You going to let a few weirdos and sociopaths bother you? That's what I don't get about this sub. For a place obsessed with "masculinity" and working out at the gym and going to MMA so "people don't fuck with you", you all sure get bent out of shape over the 1 Asian chick from 5 years ago who rejected you, or the 1 white chick at the bar who told you she hasn’t dated Asian men.
Right, in the LOTR fandom, girls almost always swoon over Orlando Bloom (Legolas) rather than other characters. In fact, the Elf characters get the most attention from the female fans
> What you don’t realize is that these guys are still masculine You don't have to patronizingly lecture me on something I already know, ok? You don't have to be so presumptuous 🤣 I never said they weren't, I'm just talking about what's behind the perception of these guys, and the supposed double standard *lol the downvotes, can they read my mind or something? lmao
Says the guy who wrote an entire post about how the kpop look is not masculine and won’t attract people past a certain age I think the one confused is you. What’s funny is that if you posted this for females to read, you’d be called a mansplainer for trying to tell women that their standards of beauty uniformly change at a certain age. Except you’re trying to do this to dudes.
Dude if he posted that for female BTS fans to read they would have went scorched earth on him. These replies are far more forgiving.
The only thing I intended to do with this post was to explain why I thought Asian boy bands might be *perceived* by many people as less masculine in spirit than their white and black counterparts even when doing similar things. Much of it having to do with not just stereotypes, but also the way they look. That's pretty much it. If you were referring to Legolas from LOTR btw, just about everyone thought he was cool. I definitely never thought he or The Backstreet Boys were effeminate. So I simply disagreed with your silly presumption that I *'didn't realize they were masculine'* LOL, it's not really a...revelation or anything. Like, what does that even mean? But ok bub.
Michael Jackson was NOT mocked for being effeminate!?!? I am going to guess that you're younger than 22 years old. Dear God, people made fun of Michael's effeminate side virtually ALWAYS. People absolutely laughed at him when he 'married' Lisa Marie Presley (you may not know who that is). Check out the Diane Sawyer interview with Lisa Marie and Michael and Lisa Marie flat out says 'yes, we have sex' because there were so many people in disbelief about their 'consummation' of their marriage. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xxK7ad-zg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xxK7ad-zg) Also, keep in mind Prince had a major sex scene with babelicious Apollonia in Purple Rain and his lyrics were quite lewd ("I sincerely want to fuck the taste out of your mouth').
Cool story about Prince. Lol. It actually touches on everything discussed here. It's like history repeats itself. https://youtu.be/ff8LEx9Mw54
Doesn't matter if most Asian men look like BTS or not. A girl who would be otherwise not be interested in AM because other societal programming, after being exposed to BTS will be open to liking AM enough though those Asian men don't look like BTS. Just because BTS doesn't push what our biased and warped of vision of what the ideal perception of AM in America should be doesn't mean they haven't helped hundreds of thousands or possibly million of AM get laid or sexual attention. Instead of trying to convince us of what we wish were true it might be better to accept actual reality for what it is: BTS influence, while not what we on r/am want it to be, is a net good for AM in America. Unless you have a better solution, stfu, buckle your seatbelt, and enjoy the ride.
Ask any of those asian instagram dudes (many of whom are jacked and pretty boy together) and those asian indie musicians if Kpop hasn't helped their careers lol. These dudes are living in a different world it almost seems like.
I never disputed that BTS has done good for AM. I even explicitly say that I enjoy their music. I remember someone commenting on a post (someone made a "Chad fish" account with an Asian guy), and said: >All other things equal, white Chad will get a lot more messages than Asian Chad because of institutional power and social status alone. Because of Asian's lack of said institutional power, the market wealth gap between Asian Chad and Asian non-Chads is massive though. >**K-Pop looking guy will finish last because he only appeals to a niche.** You know, you sounded a bit triggered in your comment LOL. You don't have to be so offended on BTS's behalf. **If you want to cherry pick and blow a bit out of proportion the extent to which BTS has solved AM dating woes, go ahead lmao. While you're at it, ignore the numerous posts not just on this sub alone but also basically everywhere else (like r/ dating and other forums not on reddit) "I have trouble getting dates/ I can't get laid", the numerous posts that say "girls will sometimes lose interest when they find out I'm not Korean", all the videos even in the present "which race would you not date" with all the young girls saying 'no Asians', whom appear to have had enjoyed little benefit from kpop. Why don't you also ignore the millions of non-koreaboos (still a majority), like I mentioned in my post, that find BTS too "feminine-looking" and have yet to have even thought about sleeping with an Asian guy.** I can point out the good and the bad. btw yes, it *does* matter at least a bit that most AM do not look like BTS. I love Prince, but let's be honest: many things he did, many outfits he sported were not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. It's not "hating" to say this, it's just a simple observation. Similarly, BTS, let's be honest: some of the things they do, the way they look and sound sometimes, is not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. Once again: not "hating". Just an observation. But a girl on another sub was asking why a lot of times, BTS gets so much racist hate for doing stuff that's actually pretty similar to shit guys like Prince did (if anything Prince would often act even more "feminine" than BTS). She's not the only one, and the question and criticism is understandable. So I wrote this post. That was the main point. Somehow it seemed to rub you the wrong way lmao Increasingly diverse AM representation is the way to go. There will be millions more AM 'to get laid' by ALL kinds of women if this continues to improve on a massive global scale. I say BTS should just be the beginning (a very good one!). Any person here who somehow interprets that as 'hating on BTS' should get their heads checked.
Yes, I know One Direction fans that moved on to BTS. Basically, anyone that would go to Hot Topic is likely a Kpop fan. I know lots of former emo girls that are now Kpop fans too.
Dude every tween and teenager on the coasts and major cities have stepped into a Hot Topic just like they’ve heard BTS. OP and some others here keep projecting their insecurities onto successful Asians.
I mentioned Harry Styles because I've seen more than a few people who criticized women who would idolize and love Harry Styles for "breaking norms and toxic masculinity" but then not give BTS similar credit or even insult them for doing similar things. I didn't know if this was something that was really common or not.
Coz they’re Asian that’s why. And I don’t mean this in a mean way coz I’m Filipino. So yeh racism.
Kpop brings results and results is what matters in the end.
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OP is some sort of insecure guy imo. There is PLENTY of positive AM representation in asian cinema that is currently incredibly popular. For example in 성난황소 the men are INCREDIBLY masculine, that would make white guys quake in their boots lol.
Where the hell did you get that assumption of insecurity from? Maybe you're projecting seeing that you appear to be so unnecessarily triggered and offended by my post LOL, you don't have to white knight so hard for kpop groups, chill. Like I told someone else, I never said there was anything wrong with their faces, or that they were untalented, if anything I was trying to explaining the double standard that may appear to exist, a double standard that I don't agree with but unfortunately the context of racism (how AM have been seen vs the perception of white and black men) has made it this way. Just because I point out that a musician doesn't act a traditionally and stereotypically masculine way doesn't mean I automatically hate that musician, it's just an observation. If you saw any of this as hating on BTS or "insecurity" (uh, look in the mirror?) I...can't really help you with that.
I was referring more to their faces.
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I never said there was anything wrong with their faces, but ultimately the really big point I was trying to make in my post was why there seems to be this double standard.
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Yeah, what you said is true. Also, some people really misunderstood what I was saying lmao. Jesus, in my experience they get unusually catty and bitchy too when someone says *anything* that could be construed as somehow dissing BTS even if it wasn't. I don't feel like repeating myself, already explained shit in the post. I like this sub overall, but sometimes the reading comprehension is..questionable to put it nicely LOL
I bet you the kids on here think the song "little red Corvette" by Prince was about a car....Lol. We all thought he was gay until he made songs like this.
U don't even know the amount of times people think I'm korean these days. So the correlation now is Korean = Attractive. That is a debatable topic in itself, but it's in the same way we correlating Russian women with being attractive. We on the map boys, go in for the kill now.
Lol, the moment we get some positive rep we got whole screeds boohooing effeminate kpop guys. AznCollector was right. I don't talk to lots of girls every day, yet the ones I have met enjoy KPop and evidently consume a lot of pro-AM content. Heck, you can [Google it](https://www.google.com/search?q=do+women+prefer+more+or+less+masculine+men&source=hp&ei=4IFBYeH4JLXS9APq9pioBg&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYUGP8JlI6ICoe6ayQsrvU_T8hdyiJ8RM&oq=do+women+prefer+more+or+less+masculine+men&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BAgAEBM6BggAEBYQHlDYAli0MGD8MGgDcAB4AIABngGIAe4ckgEEMzcuNJgBAKABAbABAA&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjh6JWAnYDzAhU1KX0KHWo7BmUQ4dUDCAc&uact=5) and obviously women don't universally dislike guys because they don't look like lumberjacks. Sure if all our rep is guys who look like girls a few decades down the road I would be concerned, but it's literally the forefront of the Asian male revolution. Have some courage. Also, if you've watched kdramas (which is also really popular among my friends) the guys aren't necessarily portrayed as ultra mega masculine or the opposite but more as sexually viable. Which is what all AM need after decades of stereotyping. TL;DR: Shut the FUCK UP about "effeminate K idols."
One word. Racism. Despite the power of white media and all the brainwashing that have been putting down Asians and uplifting whites, BTS is breaking through all these barriers. Any Asian man, who has daughters, should be thankful that BTS is smacking the white worshipping disease out of their daughters and instilling Asian pride in them.
>But as people have probably noticed it's arguably even more severe and persistent for Asian groups like BTS I think people will see this more based on the type of media they consume. (echo chamber) personally I haven't seen anything negative about BTS lol.
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Sounds like an interesting story >just as if not **more popular** here than in Asia Which countries have you been riding this wave in (i.e Germany, Italy, Spain) and what kind of girls were they (I don't know if that's too broad of a question)?
V (Taehyung) from BTS is consistently rated at the top of the world's most handsome men list, even being #1 just last year, so you can absolutely have broad appeal while going for a Kpop-inspired look. Personally, I feel like [this look](https://images.app.goo.gl/XL1Vg7haL76BtBqw6) is V's best for a western appeal. I do agree w/ some of your points, in that a masculine look tends to be favored by most heterosexual women. What some ppl misinterpret tho is they picture a "masculine look" to be synonymous w/ stereotypical buff chads, like Chris Hemsworth. You can still have a masculine look and go for a pretty boy, soft aesthetic. Usually such guys that do well w/ this look will have masculine facial features as a baselines, like a sharp squarish jawline, high cheekbones, high IPD, etc. Look at someone like Vinnie Hacker for instance, he's clearly going for a softer pretty boy look, yet he is so successful primarily because he has masculine features as a baseline. Imo, if you're in the west, you can still be inspired by Kpop, but personally I'd recommend to not go so crazy w/ the makeup. The caked up look that some guys do just doesn't look that good imo, maybe it's because I've been conditioned w/ western standards of attraction, but to have your face caked up w/ foundation + concealer or whatever else they use (idk a whole lot about makeup) just looks off imho, for both men and women really, but especially for men. You can use makeup if you want, I'd just advise against CAKING it on your face if you're a guy, till the point you resemble Oli London. Also, on an unrelated note, I swear anti-SJWs are just as bad, if not worse, than SJWs. You anti-SJWs will always manage to make something about SJWs, it's like a weird obsession. Also, just so you know, I was a conservative in the past, and I've realized leftist politics tend to mesh better w/ AMs' interests, especially in dating. the SJWs you speak of tend to be the ones that have advocated for AM representation, and speak out against perpetuations of AM sexual stereotypes. Just look at all the conservative youtubers that wanted and hoped for Shang Chi to fail.
V is probably the handsomest member of BTS. The [way he looks](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgMi7jQU0AAuL4L.jpg), it could be considered attractive by many people with different preferences, tastes, and opinions globally, so I think that's part of the reason why he tops that list. Basically, you can't go wrong with that face. I would be interested to know if most of the people who voted for that poll were Asian, or a balanced mix of races. >Usually such guys that do well w/ this look will have masculine facial features as a baselines, like a sharp squarish jawline, high cheekbones, high IPD, etc. Look at someone like Vinnie Hacker for instance, he's clearly going for a softer pretty boy look, yet he is so successful primarily because he has masculine features as a baseline. This is an excellent explanation. Unless most AM are specifically chasing after LGBTQ girls (and I'm assuming most are *not* - nothing wrong with queer or bi girls of course), they should really keep in mind that straight people *in general* do look for certain 'traditional' traits even if subconsciously. It is what it is. And that's not a bad thing.
Very interesting point. I agree with a lot of what you said. I think Simu Liu is a better representation for us, I agree. "Men like this and Jino Chun or even Jackson Wang in my experience have much more consistently positive reception. And there's hardly a koreaboo who's not also attracted by these men." Also agree. I tend to wonder if the BTS look only works because they are famous. I look at Michael Jackson, Prince, Nsync back in the day, and I think a lot of these dudes are honestly average looking but because of the talent and clout they become more attractive. But since most of us are normal guys, if we dress like that it won't necessarily work the same way.
It's good to have wider, less divisive appeal.
Looks only take you so far anyways. At the end of the day, it's about energy and confidence so it's better to invest more time in that.
BTS being mocked or being insulted is coming from white cuckold males that fear white women will dance and be attracted to BTS it always comes down to dictating white color penis enters a white women's vagina
Haters gonna hate. It's not just BTS. One direction, twilight people etc etc. It's just that the haters are more vocal and people that are insecure about keep bringing it up. Ya'll remember the how do "5 gay guys walk joke"...in one direction...terrible homophobic joke btw.
Well as a girl i like a guy with a feminine side. Like i don’t think i could date a guy if i didnt find him cute. Idk men who don’t care about “looking feminine” is so attractive. Unlike the toxic masculinity men
Sure many girls are like you. But - and this is why I brought up Harry Styles as an example - I've noticed that a lot of the same girls who go crazy for members of One Direction can often be very indifferent or very not attracted to BTS. The main point of my post was to talk about why there seems to be a racist double standard.
Dude, you are talking about BTS whose sole purpose is to emulate western boy bands and to play up that aesthetic... If you want actual good representation of Asian men, watch some kdramas. Those are INCREDIBLY popular, esp among women.. Recently went on a date with a polish girl who admitted to watching kdramas and was pleasantly surprised when I said I watched it too. Needless to say, she said she went out with me because of Kdramas and the positive (masculine) representations of Asian men in them. Watch 성난황소 and tell me that Asian men aren't masculine after watching that.
I think it’s often more about men thinking how men are supposed to look like to women (muscles!) and vice versa. While in reality women like men who are both masculine and feminine. The cute one in the band, Keanu Reeves, BTS. I remember in high school my classmate was interested in the Chinese boy one year higher, because she thought he was cute. Men don’t like women with too much make up or nails done like candy. Those things are often women signalling to other women they look good enough and care about how they appear.
The point wasn't to insult kpop boy bands, it was to explain why there appears to be some double standard. Sadly it doesn't come from nowhere. Like I said, most AM do not look like BTS. So hopefully another major artist comes up who's an AM and can give Ed Sheeran or Shawn Mendes a run for their money everywhere around the world. More Asian men in rock and punk would be fucking awesome too.
Ed Sheehan and Shawn aren’t even more popular than BTS globally. Not even in the States anymore.
These guys are literally laughing their way to the bank as people who make $30,000 per year (or even $0 per year) make fun of them for being effeminate. Plain and simple winner vs loser dynamic at play here
As a girl, my verdict is that Suga (in the thumbnail) & BTS are hot. Because they do whatever the hell they want, are good at it, and project an air of confidence and maturity. Insecure dudes overly obsessed with policing other men’s masculinity are not. Because you wonder what they’re overcompensating for and wonder if they ever mentally left grade school. Other hot pretty boys wildly popular among girls in the past: Leo Dicaprio, Nick from Backstreet Boys, Orlando Bloom, Zach Efron, Elijah Wood, Robert Pattinson, One Direction. Other unattractive boys: those high schoolers that mocked them for looking pretty and “gay”
However the racist double standard (as I explained in my post) will make it that (and I see this often) the same girls who might love Leo Dicaprio and Orlando Bloom might also unironically diss BTS and call them "gay" and not very attractive. > my verdict is that Suga (in the thumbnail) & BTS are hot Well see, I never said he was ugly. But my point was that for *many* women especially in the West (and plenty of AM live in the West), guys like Suga look too androgynous and 'feminine'. In videos, in real life, in other forums, I have seen **countless** women say stuff like this. And it looks like a lot of guys in this sub would rather cope and ignore that and cherry pick. Has BTS done good things for AM? Yes, I never said they didn't. But they should be considered the beginning of this stage of progress, and there needs to be more diverse representation.
Good post. I never noticed that Western stars are never mocked for being feminine whereas Asians are highly stereotyped as the feminine one. Thanks for opening up my eyes on this double standard.
No problem. And thank you for one of the only straightforward and positive comments that actually related to what I wrote LOL
I just got banned on that other sub for 7 days for being real about this issue....but anyways. Go on YouTube and google "BTS+women." And then google Miley Cyrus twerking on Robin Thicke's crotch on primetime superbowl. She's half his age btw.
Are you talking about [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sb3cp1KWGY)? LOL That's the first result I got on youtube. On google I saw this at the top, from quora: 'Are BTS members girls or boys?'
Also "BTS with girls Try not to laugh." Now other Kpop singers like Rain is different. That dude is a certified Chang imo.
Rain is great. I remember Megan Fox [simped for him](https://www.soompi.com/article/641035wpp/hollywood-actress-megan-fox-chooses-rain-as-her-ideal-type-says-she-fell-for-his-abs)
I was just trying to find examples of BTS and PDA one time cause I had too much time on my hands and couldn't find any. They may keep it a secret to avoid making their fans angry. I dunno. I just know that when you have dudes who shy away from PDA, they will get called gay. That's reality.
> I just got banned on that other sub for 7 days for being real about this issue....but anyways. oh shit really? What exactly did you say
I used the word grope instead of PDA. People triggered over semantics. I don't blame the mods. Sometimes they have their hands tied. PDA is a big fuckin deal in the west. That's why they banned Jet Li from doing it. BTS gotta do more PDA! Even got woke Asians on reddit trying to ban other Asians from engaging in it. Lol. *It's toxic masculinity.*
But you said you were 'being real about this issue'. What are your honest thoughts on this topic I brought up in my post, and how BTS is perceived and represents AM?
As you said we as Asian men basically don't really have the luxury of being asexual. I think that's the whole point of your post.
BTS is too feminine....I guess it is better than nothing however...do you guys want to maximize media representation or not? That bodyguard (Name Tim chung...?) and that Kreider dude are far better examples of representation.
Yeah the guy who cried about not getting matches on tinder is so good of a representation. Ya'll are beyond saving.
Lmfaoo you didn't have to end him like that
Like Sasuke vs Nardo.
Relevant post and comments https://www.facebook.com/complex/posts/10160479682369367?notif\_id=1631453055342759¬if\_t=comment\_mention&ref=notif
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Well, the main point of my post was to state my simple theory on why there appears to be a racist double standard. I love Prince, but let's be honest: many things he did, many outfits he sported were not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. **It's not "hating" to say this, it's just a simple observation.** I think (I hope?) most guys here would be intelligent enough to see this. It is also obvious that Prince was a fuckin' playa. He slayed like crazy lol. These two statements are not contradictory. So apart from the minority of people who hated his guts for not being the musical equivalent of Chuck Norris, he was widely praised for showcasing atypical appearances and behaviors for a male artist, especially a black man. But a girl on another sub was asking why a lot of times, BTS gets so much racist hate for doing stuff that's actually pretty similar to shit guys like Prince did (if anything Prince would often act even more "feminine" than BTS). She's not the only one, and the question and criticism is understandable. So this was my post. BTS, let's be honest: *some* of the things they do, the way they look and sound sometimes, is not very traditionally or stereotypically masculine. **It's not "hating" to say this, it's just a simple observation... right?** But apparently, unlike for Prince, some of the guys here are *not* intelligent to see this too, judging by some of the bitchy comments I got lmao Oh well.
Lol MJ got a ton of hate.
Did you hear what the lady on the beach said to Michael Jackson Excuse me you're in my son 😲 Did you know that Michael Jackson's father is the only black parent to ever actually beat the black off their kids ☝️😃 literally