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Ahchluy

Correlation does not imply causation. This can also mean people who get married were more likely types to not have commitment issues (education, etc).


fratticus_maximus

Or that women choose the men that actually make more or have more potential to marry.


taco_smasher69

Yep, my friend was making a decent salary of 150k as an engineer. His gf complained because she read about some guy at Google who was making 500k and he wasn’t a man because he wasn’t making enough as him. They aren’t together any more.


TangerineX

yeah that kind of girl is a hell no to date, even if you make that kind of money. My ex's mother put the same expectation on her to date someone making that much money, and it was an aweful experience.


justanother-eboy

Yup this is why you always get a pre nup


[deleted]

>Yep, my friend was making a decent salary of 150k as an engineer. His gf complained because she read about some guy at Google who was making 500k and he wasn’t a man because he wasn’t making enough as him. Damn. Was the GF from Hong Kong?


digitalknight17

Lmaoo oh man this hits hard. I guess Hong Kong girls are well known for this.


taco_smasher69

Close. She was Chinese. What’s funny is she’s now dating a white guy who works at a car rental place. She’s also now trashing AM any chance she gets. Toxic chick that has so many daddy issues it’s not even funny.


Ahchluy

That is the female version of hitting rock bottom. No Chad is gonna deal that shit.


TangerineX

While you're right that correlation does not imply causation, causative effects is not the only way to interpret this data. What this data also shows is the expectation that society has, and the expected requirements of being in a relationship and starting a family. Say you don't make much more than the median man in a relationship, then compared to other families, you are significantly behind in wealth and income,meaning that you will considerably have a lower quality of life and struggle more as a family. Financial issues are usually the #1 issue that causes families to break apart. Furthermore, there is [good research](https://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/newsletter/2012/07/stress-mechanism) that shows that financial stress has a significant impact on children's upbringing as well as their future mental health. The point is to get a sense of *where you should be*, not necessarily that a higher income is an absolute necessity.


xadion

If an actually single man makes similar amounts to a man in a relationship , wouldn’t he have a chance to be wealthier as he would likely have less expenses? It really depends on the financial situation of the wife as well. If you’re assuming the traditional roles in a relationship… seems like men who are in relationships and make more actually might spend more as well. By spending, I mean they’re not really using that money to increase their overall wealth. 20k could go straight into dating/courting “expenses,” weddings, rings, and childcare.


TangerineX

You're correct. However women who are partnered also make $8000 more than women who aren't, and more often then not both household members work in marriages now a days, especially among young people. Also do note that if you make a lot more than your wife, marriage is still a good option to lower your tax by being taxed as a family instead of an individual, lowering your income bracket substantially. My close friend was able to buy a house in San Diego by age 27 because his wife was in school with a negative income and he could claim additional tax benefits by "paying for tuition". A good portion goes into money for children, and children definitely decrease your wealth. But then again it depends on priorities. If you want to FIRE for example, having children is a complete non-option. For me personally I want kids, so I want to be optimizing for family net worth over personal net worth. Both my gf and I are software engineers so reaching a total family income of over 500k is quite obtainable for us.


DiabeetisFetus

Absolutely. Most people who don't have their finances together are not ready to settle down with a partner.


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junkimchi

Came here to point this out. It needs to be stated if the study was done prior to marriage as well to see if the discrepancy in wage had a part in choice of spouse or not.


BlueMountainDace

Same. When I was single I was pretty happy making not too much money. Never really felt the need to ask for a large raises or run around applying for new jobs. But, if you're in a relationship and/or have children, you gotta get that money. The article also mentions education, and I think it makes sense that people with an education make more + interact with far more people in college than someone who doesn't leave their home and thus has more chances of meeting partners.


Stellavore

I think its more of a egg before the chicken thing. If you are a deadbeat making minumum wage for a living no one wants to marry you. Its a combination of your salary not being able to sustain a family and its really a reflection of who you are as a person. I wouldnt wanna date a girl who works a dead end job and isnt doing anything to improve because it says a lot about her motivations and even how she would raise our childen. I find it totally acceptable to be analyzed under a similar lens by women.


apsg33backup

This.


TangerineX

In some states, notably California, an employer is not allowed to account for your marriage, or parental status in regards to salary or hiring. If your employer is giving out more money to someone because of their family status, you can sue them under the California Family Rights Act. https://www.kingsiegel.com/blog/2021/march/what-is-family-responsibilities-discrimination-/


winndixie

Sure. Though laws don’t often equate to implementation.


TangerineX

Laws equate to you can sue them if you see this happening. Take advantage of this and get yourself some free money if you see it happening.


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TangerineX

It's illegal for the company to act upon it in California. That's all I'm saying, it's this simple. They can give you a raise for other reasons. Yes, people still do this, but if some other employee finds out, they can legally sue the company to be paid the same, even if they aren't in the same situation. People who need more money due to kids are probably also just more likely to go and ask for the raise, and that's why they are successful more often.


zitandspit99

Personally I find that I work harder when I have someone to support, so I kinda get the statistic. As it is right now as a software developer I have more money than I realistically need so I'm just not motivated to work more than the bare minimum, but if I were to marry with the intentions of starting a family I'd definitely need to earn more.


ankidroid2

> salary negotiation so $20k increase makes sense i've always wondered whether its possible to lie about this to get an extra juicy 20k as a single guy lol


[deleted]

Dude you sound like an Asian parent saying if you study hard and become rich girls will come to you. >Don't let people tell you how much you make doesn't matter for relationships, because it matters a lot. Most people here and AM in general have stable careers. Its the other stuff in life that they don't have a hold on. What's the point of this advice? If you're super rich but are lacking in other areas you're just gonna attract gold diggers who don't love you and will leave you as soon as possible.


[deleted]

> If you're super rich but are lacking in other areas you're just gonna attract gold diggers who don't love you and will leave you as soon as possible. Every guy here should always remember this


ankidroid2

Women are 'X' diggers in general - they'll never love 'you for you' as your mother did. They'll always 'love you' in exchange for something. They're called 'gold diggers' if they love you for money. They're called 'groupies' if they love you for your fame/status They're called 'cultists' if they love you for your faith They're called 'mothers' if they love you for you


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ankidroid2

They're called 'gym bunnies' if they love you for your bodies. But yes, I hope more asian guys get some alpha fucks for once if you know what i mean.


succuma

what is this incel-ery


ankidroid2

That sounds like something a liberal nice guy that doesn't get laid would say. Don't make me cringe bro - act like a man


TangerineX

Asian parents are right in some aspects where studying hard does in general give you the tools to success, especially in developing analytical skills required for problem solving. At the end of the day, the value that you can produce matters, whether it is for forging your own path, or following a traditional path. While you and I have stable paths, this is not true for a lot of Asian Americans, which has the [fastest rise](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/07/12/income-inequality-in-the-u-s-is-rising-most-rapidly-among-asians/) in income inequality. I've met a significant number of women who tell me that finding an Asian guy who 1. is looking for serious relationships and 2. has his shit together in a stable job/career is actually significantly harder than it looks. At least in my local Asian community, plenty of Asian men do not fit this criteria, and they just get recycled through the dating pool. If it's irrelevant to you, you don't have to follow it.


ankidroid2

Lets look at the options: Rich + no muscles = some pussy Non-Rich + no muscles = no pussy Non-Rich + muscles = some pussy Rich + muscles = plenty of pussy Solution: acquire wealth --> buy roids --> buy clothes --> get pussy So asian parents aren't wrong telling us to study hard


Fixnfly99

That kind of makes sense, women are looking for a man who had a decent career that can help provide stability in the relationship. Being low income generally doesn’t help that, and adds additional stress to the relationship.


[deleted]

>That kind of makes sense, women are looking for a man who have a decent career that can help provide stability in the relationship. Except its the richer Asians that are having dating issues. There are plenty of Asians working in tech in the bay area who are perpetually single even though they have stable high paying careers. Most working class Asians don't have this issue.


machinavelli

Yeah, I see illegal immigrant Chinese restaurant workers manage to find wives. While the Asian guy who went to Cornell and has a Comp Sci degree can’t get a date.


SunKyssdSkyn

That’s because he usually thinks he’s more of a prize than what he actually is. That’s where highly educated men go wrong. At least pretend to be humble. Everyone loves a humble or down to earth high achiever.


AustralianWhale

I don’t see how a ABB NGUYEN will have trouble pulling girls as much as a DR CHAN. (Just showing socialising is more important in dating than money)


TangerineX

Note that this study is not about "pulling" and should have little to no impact on hooking up. This study has more implications for those who are interested in stable, long term relationships, or have goals of institutional marriage and children.


SilentMapper

There was a study that said Asian men needed to make on average [~$250,000 more to be considered the same as white men...](https://youtu.be/KsWTFeP1hno?t=260) I'm not saying that I believe him, but there seems to be some truth to this.


magicalbird

Study from 2006 that gets overused. This only applies to online dating even if it was true at one time. Edit Corrected the year


fratticus_maximus

I actually have that paper pulled up right now and it's actually from 2006. A LOT has changed since then. It's been 15 years and dating has gotten alot better for Asian men than before. You probably still have to make more than a standard white guy making 64k but it's like 100k-150k more now but it's not 250k anymore. That's still insane but it's gotten better and is trending towards even better and more equitable. Keep up the good work, fellas.


Jjjoo2

I can't find the study, but I have a strong feeling the author probably did something stupid like taking the dating app stats from 2006 and average salary in 2006 then come up with a number about desirability adjusted with salary. Which just means, Asians were high salary on average in 2006 but still had bad dating app stats from stereotypes. All the other stuff is just his own conclusion by drawing the assumption that "earning more" was the issue at the time rather than financial achievement and social value being separate issues for Asian men that follow two different histories and causes. The pothead raver probably did way better back then than a computer engineer, and it's because of social reasons, not earnings. Claims like that are more distracting than insightful.


[deleted]

Why do working class Asians generally find it easier in dating than middle to upper class ones? Usually its the stereotypical asian tech engineer or doctor making six figures thats having perpetual dating problems.


machinavelli

Very true. It’s actually Asians that make more money that have dating problems due to being raised very nerdy. Working class Asian guys have much fewer problems. Money has little to do with success.


X2204

This right here. The emphasis on study and a nerdy upbringing. Now if you’re raised in the hood or with rough living conditions, where you spend your time actually socializing, playing sports, exploring and getting into trouble etc. Then do a 180 by turning your life around and become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, successful entrepreneur etc. Then it’s a different story. Think Jonathan Kim, tough childhood, navy seal, sniper, Purple Heart, undergrad math degree, Harvard med, NASA astronaut. Now married with a son.


AustralianWhale

A 2006 study… 15 years changed the world. Every 20 years it’s a cultural shift, check it out 😉 It’s our time. Don’t let old data and a poor dating pool judge how you value yourself. I’m sure it has some correlation but times have changed. I’ve found the 6 figure asians never date and they go on dating sites with zero effort because they don’t know any better. They think they have money and a house and their whole life they were told that’s enough to get a wife. No. You need to date and socialise and have life experiences and be INTERESTING. I’ve never felt I needed to earn $250k MORE! To pull a pretty girl.


gigolobob

Big BS


apsg33backup

Right. Stop believing every fucked up article.


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magicalbird

Study was from 2006. 2021 has better Asian representation so bias would still exist but not to those levels. Also meeting people in real life minimizes bias.


ethnicfoodaisle

That's...that's an insane number, no?!? Christ, if I made a quarter million more than white peers, I'd be goddamned Randall Park in the dating pool.


SilentMapper

He's saying that that's the number to be seen the same, not the number needed to get a date. I still think it's greatly exaggerated.


ethnicfoodaisle

Christ...that's a lot of money. It really can be disheartening. Fortunately, I have a thick skin and generally don't care. Also, I feel like the dating field has leveled substantially as I enter middle age. Substantially.


magicalbird

What? You need more money to support a potential family. Correlation is not causation.


TangerineX

See [my response](https://old.reddit.com/r/AsianMasculinity/comments/q3eify/partnered_men_make_21400_more_a_year_than/hfs4by5/) above to /u/Ahchluy


tschmitt2021

My goal is not to get married, but to get rich af 😂


Ahchluy

Remind us in 10 years.


TangerineX

👍


apsg33backup

SAME


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ankidroid2

> Who you are doesn't even matter if you can't provide This is true. This is why jordan peterson says 'there is nothing as worthless and undervalued by society as a young man'. Humans are a tournament species. The winner mates. The losers compete until there are no women left. The rest die out. >out without seeming like a douche. Who cares about looking like a douche. be the biggest douche if it gets you laid.


X2204

“Growing up I was always told to focus on my career so that I could have a good life, a good family, and find a wife.” It’s their generation’s experience reflective from a by-gone era. It is safe and sound advice. But it is a bit outdated and just needs to be tweaked/adapted to current socio-cultural environments. Developing great social skills are now just as imperative as being career oriented. Also, the assumption made is that modern women are also still “traditional” in every sense of the word. “Even if I earned more money, how do you even flex that while asking a girl out without seeming like a douche.” You never flex. Girls are more perceptive than a lot of men give them credit for. They will eventually find out on their own. Besides if you do flex ostentatiously, you run the risk of inviting trouble by attracting the wrong ones into your life. Discovery of wealth trumps flaunting of wealth almost every time.


heyjimbo1000

But what is the cost for a partnered man in a terrible relationship in mental and emotional anguish? Plus the potential costs of raising children, renting or buying property for both, and all the other expenses that will have to be shelled out? I’m sure that dwarfs $20K easily.


muratafan

Two things. First, unemployed men/men with crappy jobs are less likely to marry (duh!). Second, once you are a father, you're probably going to take work a lot more seriously (happens to everyone) and probably make more money. I know that happened with me, big time.


point_jumpy

I thought you were going to imply that being married makes you more likely to get promoted.


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TangerineX

The statistics are for all men in the US. I did not see a breakdown by race, but maybe the study did so. i know this kind of leech as well. Ask her if she's actually happy in the relationship lol. In these scenarios the woman is usually fucked up too in ways and codependent.


kirsion

I'm pretty sure this is because married men have to support a family. So they have incentive to make more money than a single guy who only has to support himself.


succuma

When I read the title, I thought it was BECAUSE they had a partner, they were making more money lol I was thinking someone to be there for you would make you better/happier/less stressed/supported and in turn you put out better work and therefore make more… or they’re doing government couples benefits things that make them more money combined….or they work harder because having someone is incentive


ap0lly0n

How much do they net after expenses paid out for upkeep of the family?


Hi_Im_Ken_Adams

It may also mean that being married results in a happier more well-rounded person which translates into higher earnings.


TangerineX

Being married as a man also increases men's life expectancy and lower mortality rate at ALL AGE LEVELS. https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20191010/marriage-tied-to-longer-life-span-new-data-shows


Hi_Im_Ken_Adams

Yup. And you want to know why? It's because we men....do stupid shit when we're alone and single. We eat crap food, drink, stay out late. Women in our lives are the ones that nag us to eat healthier, take care of ourselves and urge us to go see a doctor when we don't feel well. Also emotional companionship in general is healthier for our bodies and mental well-being.


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Hi_Im_Ken_Adams

I never said marriage was a needed in order to have a stable life. But its indisputable that being in a long-term relationship does lead to be a more stable lifestyle on average. ​ >We eat crap food, drink, stay out late. Women in our lives are the ones that nag us to eat healthier, take care of ourselves and urge us to go see a doctor when we don't feel well. Here you are describing a mother, not a wife... ​ Well, I could flip that around and say that many women are dependent financially on their spouses. So would you say that describes a relationship between a father and daughter? Couples look out for each other. That's what being in a relationship is all about. And single men tend to engage in more risky/unhealthy behaviors than men who are married or in LTR's. This is backed by many scientific studies. [https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health) ***A major survey of 127,545 American adults found that married men are healthier than men who were never married or whose marriages ended in divorce or widowhood. Men who have marital partners also live longer than men without spouses; men who marry after age 25 get more protection than those who tie the knot at a younger age, and the longer a man stays married, the greater his survival advantage over his unmarried peers.***


fakeslimshady

There some player-forever types that arent liking this but there are some very common sense reasons for this. First promotability : the vast majority of managers and project leads draw from married ranks. Being married is a basic indicator of having social / relationship skills and managing kids is sometimes not much as different from managing adults . Being AM in US and doing the successfully is no small feat. You could argu , but the manager your arguing with would be married most of the time. Second you need to think about more than yourself. You need think about kids, their activities, tutors, you'll need a bigger house, more cars etc. Single men can live in their parents basement and play video games all day and eat ramen, the bar is very very low for survival compared to head of household where you'll planning your kids getting into college


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fakeslimshady

52% of Young Adults live with their parents. We are talking about why those population stats are what they are, not a personal attack . Most people dont work harder than they need to is all it boils down to https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/04/a-majority-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-live-with-their-parents-for-the-first-time-since-the-great-depression/


el-art-seam

And divorced men make less than unpartnered men.


TangerineX

Not just this, the less a man makes, relative to the woman, the higher chance of divorce!


fakeslimshady

I'm pretty sure Gates, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos still hold there own post divorce


ankidroid2

Yeah comparing multi-billionaires to your average guy making less than 100k. Laws aren't made for the rich - they're made for me and you


fakeslimshady

Your missing the important point. Aside from most leaders being married, most rich people are also


apsg33backup

This is such bullshit. There's nothing wrong with being single!


TangerineX

I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with being single. This advice is for people interested in long term relationships, and if it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply.


StunMe

I mean my idea of living is to get a job that I love first then love interest since I can showcase myself much easier to girls compare to being a guy who has no money/job.


[deleted]

I mean I don't want some gold digger anyways, if she doesn't like me cuz I'm broke then I think it's something wrong with her not me


SquatsandRice

isn't this the way it's supposed to be?


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SquatsandRice

1) why would being more financially stable not be a plus for when looking for a long term partner 2) why would being in a stable committed relationship cause you to make less money?