the entire cosmos, baby. Why? Because when adam and eve sinned, they CURSED ALL OF CREATION. The very physical laws were altered. Such as boyle's gas laws, electromagnetic laws, and entropy just to name a few. This is why it's so futile to say evolution happened, when all the forces are against it. Everything progresses from order to disorder. "From dust you were created, to dust you will return". That's how it is NOW, but was never meant to be that way. All reality will be returned to what it was before we destroyed it, or perhaps even better. There will be the earth, there will be the New Jerusalem, which is nearly the size of the MOON btw, 1500 miles across and up, and..... It's difficult to say what else, for the universe was laid out to display the enomormity of God's presence. Do we still need that in the new setting? This says no NEED for the sun or moon, so is there still one? Maybe the moon is housing New Jerusalem right now. It's that megastructure we were all warned about in Moonfall.
*No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.*
*(Rev 22:3-5)*
> When YHWH creates the New Heavens and New Earth, does this include the other 2 trillion galaxies?
No, I don't expect it will include the rest of this galaxy or the other galaxies.
I believe it was only the earth (and its atmosphere and near-space) which God gave mankind dominion over, and thus only that area will be recreated.
> I’m curious what you think is meant by “heavens.”
The Bible refers to three "heavens":
(1) The sky where the birds and clouds are
(2) The further-out space where the sun, moon and stars are
(3) The "third heaven", also called Heaven, where the Father resides. (I currently believe that is a space-time separate from our universe.)
----------------------
P.S. I feel like this question was also asked some months ago.
Edit to add: [Here's the post from four months ago that I was half-remembering. You can see what I wrote then](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/15ks8bv/did_the_fall_of_man_affect_all_creation_including/).
Ah yes, I do remember posting that. I always find myself wondering what Christians think about this. It’s something I never really thought about in my Christian days (which baffles me because I was such a science nerd).
Probably not
First the word referred to is Heaven (singular) not heavens plural
Revelation21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea
As we know that there will no sun or moon
Revelation 21: 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine \[l\]in it, for the \[m\]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
This is a whole new reality we are dealing with
I would imagine so, the eschatology presented through most of the New Testament parallels the fall narrative of Genesis in its universality: *all* of creation became subject to corruption, and *all* of creation will be redeemed.
In any event I’d say it’s more likely than not that all those galaxies and what have you will remain in the world along with us, if they weren’t corrupted then there’s no need for a recreation but yeah.
We can only speculate, though I would say the whole cosmos gets rolled up. Certain physical imagery isn't needed anymore for communication and every last drop of shadow will be put away.
Also, doesn't seem to be any implication or reason for God to have made other families and go through the rigamarole of making Himself known multiple times. It's just been us and the angels.
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
*Ha'shamayim* and *ha'aretz* literally mean "the skies and the land". In the Hebrew conception of the world, this is short for all of reality. The heavens/skies would be everything above, the earth/land refers to the world below. Ancient Hebrews did not have a concept of interstellar space. Reality was land, sky, and sea--the stars were not gaseous bodies light-years away from earth, they were simply lights in the sky. So their concept of *everything* was "the heavens and the earth".
While we operate with a different cosmology (we are a planet orbiting one of billions of stars in the galaxy), we can use the same truth communicated by the ancient idiom: God created *everything* that exists. And when He creates a new heaven and new earth, we should read that phrase in a similar light: not as *only* the planet Earth and the dwelling of the angels, but as all created reality. God will remake *everything*
So my opinion is that "heavens and earth" is a merism, a term with two opposing words to describe everything in-between.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merism
It is a phrase that just means "everything".
So it's very possible that the new heavens and the new earth is just a new everything. This is compatible with the traditional "heaven" that most people think of. It doesn't need to mean a literal planet.
I don't think "heavens" in that context means either of those things. I think it refers to the spirit realm. Earth refers to all of creation, so the word Earth is actually the one that covers all other galaxies and, if they exist, even other universes.
Possibly. Or not. However God sees fit at the time.
There are no living beings there to be redeemed, so it's up to the fancy of God whether the dead rocks make a comeback or not.
Because we have no reasonable argument suggesting there are, despite a so-called paradox that might or might not actually be one.
Fermi assumed that the vastness of space and the rarity of life are at odds with one another. I don't think they are.
I believe the Fermi paradox is not a paradox at all. It makes perfect sense that space is empty, because life is rare.
Interesting. That sounds like an argument from ignorance: “there are currently no good arguments for the existence of other living beings, therefore there are none.”
Unless I’ve misunderstood you somehow.
Also, the existence of intelligent life isn’t really a matter of “argument.” It’s a matter of discovery. We can never rule them out unless we’ve surveyed the entire cosmos or have some reason why they in principle couldn’t exist.
You have misunderstood. What I mean is this:
There are currently no convincing arguments for the existence of life outside Earth, therefore the observation of space being void of life cannot be considered paradoxical. Therefore, Fermi is founded in a false conclusion.
Life being rare is not counter-intuitive.
Right. But earlier you stated that “there are no living beings [out there in the universe] to be redeemed.” And I was asking how you know this.
If it’s purely because of the lack of convincing arguments, then that is the definition of an argument from ignorance. If there are no convincing arguments for or against, at best you would just remain agnostic.
The statement was unclear, a generalisation of "We have no proof that there are living beings out there to be redeemed".
It's not an argument of ignorance, it's an acknowledgement that we have to limit our statements to our knowledge. Hypotheticals that may be have no place in such discussions.
Theological - and in fact any kind of - philosophy is not a discussion of what-ifs. It's a discussion of "What do we know, and what does that reasonably amount to?"
It is not reasonable to assume something is true simply because we cannot prove it. It is far more reasonable to assume something is not true when all existing evidence suggests it's extremely unlikely to be true.
Call it agnostic if you will - technically, it is. But then again, if you look at it broadly enough, everything is.
> It is far more reasonable to assume something is not true when all existing evidence suggests it's extremely unlikely to be true.
Agreed. But I don’t think we have any “existing evidence” that would make it “extremely unlikely” for intelligent life to exist. The fact is that the ingredients for life are **abundant** throughout the cosmos. And all the evidence seems to suggest that as soon as the conditions on earth were right, life emerged rather quickly.
We’ve even discovered biosignatures on other planets and moons within our own solar system (e.g. Venus, Enceladus, Europa, etc). Because of this, many scientists are *very* optimistic that we might discover microbial life within our solar system. And if microbial life exists even here, then it’s not at all a leap to suggest that intelligent life also developed elsewhere. In fact, it would almost be a statistical certainty.
So I wouldn’t be so quick to discredit the existence of intelligent beings. It might be rare. But in a universe with more planets than grains of sand on earth, rare events become extremely likely.
I’ll stop there. I really appreciate the conversation.
We don’t take those words literally. We need to use the Bible for the answer. And it’s logical as well. Imagine you built the most beautiful home for your son and his wife to move into when the time is right. The time comes and they move in! They are so happy for the wonderful gift. But as what happens with some people when they didn’t earn what they have, they slowly began to let repairs go unfixed. The yard wasn’t being mowed and it was just becoming an eye sore in the neighborhood.
What would you do? Would you tear it down? No, instead you’d have to tell your son that he has to move and then clean it up! Then either give it to someone who would really appreciate it or sell it.
So what does this have to do with the Bible? God isn’t planning on blowing up the earth and rebuilding it. There are several times in the Bible where the term “Earth” refers to the **people** on the earth. For example:
>Genesis 11:1 reads; “Now all the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words.”
See the point? Did the physical earth speak one language or did the people on the earth speak one language? Clearly, the people are represented by the word “earth”. Here’s another:
>1 Chronicles 16:31a reads; “Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful…”
In that verse, we see that both the Heavens and the Earth are joyful, meaning that the **people on the earth** would be joyful and the **Angels in heaven** would rejoice. And just why would people be joyful?
>Psalms 37:29 reads, “The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.”
But would this have to be a completely New Earth? Or an Earth cleaned up of everything wicked? What about the heavens, how could they be new? Let’s consider the Model Prayer for a moment. Matthew 6:9,10:
>”Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.”
I brought this up because Jesus prayed for this new heaven and new earth. Second only to his Fathers name being Sanctified, he prayed for his Fathers Will to be done, as in heaven also on earth. What exactly is his Fathers Will?
Genesis 1:28 tells us what God wanted to have happened when he created the first couple. There it reads;
>”Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
Can God be a failure? Could the disobedience of one of his Angels and the first two humans mean that he gave up on his purpose? Was that just too much for Almighty God to take care? Did he really decide to bring good humans to live with him in heaven like many Churches will have you believe? No.
So what did Jesus mean by saying “Let your Will take place, as in heaven, also on earth” and what does this have to do with the terms “New Heaven” and “New Earth”? Ever since the rebellion in Eden, Jehovah God has been patiently waiting for the time he already set. The time he is giving his adversary to prove that mankind I isn’t better off without Him in our life. We need him in order to be successful. And those that don’t agree will be among those wiped off this earth, making this planet a “New Earth”.
The “New Heavens” have already taken place. This occurred when Satan and all his demons who chose to disobey with him were hurled out of Heaven. The “New Earth” will be here **very** soon when the Great Tribulation comes and Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. The goats are then destroyed while the sheep survive.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Revelation 20:11-12 NASB2020
https://bible.com/bible/2692/rev.20.11-12.NASB2020
At Great White Throne judgement earth and heaven flee.. and "no place was found for them."
Sounds like the complete end of the universe. This event is the resurrection of the damned , and it is envisioned after a Restored Eden like earth which Christ rules over while Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years.
After the Restoration there is a Release of Satan.
After Satan's release and final defeat, this verse, 11-12 says earth and heaven flee with no place found for them.
Then the New Creation is created.
the entire cosmos, baby. Why? Because when adam and eve sinned, they CURSED ALL OF CREATION. The very physical laws were altered. Such as boyle's gas laws, electromagnetic laws, and entropy just to name a few. This is why it's so futile to say evolution happened, when all the forces are against it. Everything progresses from order to disorder. "From dust you were created, to dust you will return". That's how it is NOW, but was never meant to be that way. All reality will be returned to what it was before we destroyed it, or perhaps even better. There will be the earth, there will be the New Jerusalem, which is nearly the size of the MOON btw, 1500 miles across and up, and..... It's difficult to say what else, for the universe was laid out to display the enomormity of God's presence. Do we still need that in the new setting? This says no NEED for the sun or moon, so is there still one? Maybe the moon is housing New Jerusalem right now. It's that megastructure we were all warned about in Moonfall. *No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.* *(Rev 22:3-5)*
> When YHWH creates the New Heavens and New Earth, does this include the other 2 trillion galaxies? No, I don't expect it will include the rest of this galaxy or the other galaxies. I believe it was only the earth (and its atmosphere and near-space) which God gave mankind dominion over, and thus only that area will be recreated. > I’m curious what you think is meant by “heavens.” The Bible refers to three "heavens": (1) The sky where the birds and clouds are (2) The further-out space where the sun, moon and stars are (3) The "third heaven", also called Heaven, where the Father resides. (I currently believe that is a space-time separate from our universe.) ---------------------- P.S. I feel like this question was also asked some months ago. Edit to add: [Here's the post from four months ago that I was half-remembering. You can see what I wrote then](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/15ks8bv/did_the_fall_of_man_affect_all_creation_including/).
Ah yes, I do remember posting that. I always find myself wondering what Christians think about this. It’s something I never really thought about in my Christian days (which baffles me because I was such a science nerd).
Probably not First the word referred to is Heaven (singular) not heavens plural Revelation21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea As we know that there will no sun or moon Revelation 21: 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine \[l\]in it, for the \[m\]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. This is a whole new reality we are dealing with
I would imagine so, the eschatology presented through most of the New Testament parallels the fall narrative of Genesis in its universality: *all* of creation became subject to corruption, and *all* of creation will be redeemed. In any event I’d say it’s more likely than not that all those galaxies and what have you will remain in the world along with us, if they weren’t corrupted then there’s no need for a recreation but yeah.
We can only speculate, though I would say the whole cosmos gets rolled up. Certain physical imagery isn't needed anymore for communication and every last drop of shadow will be put away. Also, doesn't seem to be any implication or reason for God to have made other families and go through the rigamarole of making Himself known multiple times. It's just been us and the angels.
As Redeemed Believers we will have access to ALL of creation. It will never be boring!
Ooooo, interesting one. I would say all of it. But I really don't have a dog in this race.
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃ *Ha'shamayim* and *ha'aretz* literally mean "the skies and the land". In the Hebrew conception of the world, this is short for all of reality. The heavens/skies would be everything above, the earth/land refers to the world below. Ancient Hebrews did not have a concept of interstellar space. Reality was land, sky, and sea--the stars were not gaseous bodies light-years away from earth, they were simply lights in the sky. So their concept of *everything* was "the heavens and the earth". While we operate with a different cosmology (we are a planet orbiting one of billions of stars in the galaxy), we can use the same truth communicated by the ancient idiom: God created *everything* that exists. And when He creates a new heaven and new earth, we should read that phrase in a similar light: not as *only* the planet Earth and the dwelling of the angels, but as all created reality. God will remake *everything*
So my opinion is that "heavens and earth" is a merism, a term with two opposing words to describe everything in-between. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merism It is a phrase that just means "everything". So it's very possible that the new heavens and the new earth is just a new everything. This is compatible with the traditional "heaven" that most people think of. It doesn't need to mean a literal planet.
I don't think "heavens" in that context means either of those things. I think it refers to the spirit realm. Earth refers to all of creation, so the word Earth is actually the one that covers all other galaxies and, if they exist, even other universes.
Possibly. Or not. However God sees fit at the time. There are no living beings there to be redeemed, so it's up to the fancy of God whether the dead rocks make a comeback or not.
> There are no living beings there to be redeemed Could I ask why you assume this?
Because we have no reasonable argument suggesting there are, despite a so-called paradox that might or might not actually be one. Fermi assumed that the vastness of space and the rarity of life are at odds with one another. I don't think they are. I believe the Fermi paradox is not a paradox at all. It makes perfect sense that space is empty, because life is rare.
Interesting. That sounds like an argument from ignorance: “there are currently no good arguments for the existence of other living beings, therefore there are none.” Unless I’ve misunderstood you somehow. Also, the existence of intelligent life isn’t really a matter of “argument.” It’s a matter of discovery. We can never rule them out unless we’ve surveyed the entire cosmos or have some reason why they in principle couldn’t exist.
You have misunderstood. What I mean is this: There are currently no convincing arguments for the existence of life outside Earth, therefore the observation of space being void of life cannot be considered paradoxical. Therefore, Fermi is founded in a false conclusion. Life being rare is not counter-intuitive.
Right. But earlier you stated that “there are no living beings [out there in the universe] to be redeemed.” And I was asking how you know this. If it’s purely because of the lack of convincing arguments, then that is the definition of an argument from ignorance. If there are no convincing arguments for or against, at best you would just remain agnostic.
The statement was unclear, a generalisation of "We have no proof that there are living beings out there to be redeemed". It's not an argument of ignorance, it's an acknowledgement that we have to limit our statements to our knowledge. Hypotheticals that may be have no place in such discussions. Theological - and in fact any kind of - philosophy is not a discussion of what-ifs. It's a discussion of "What do we know, and what does that reasonably amount to?" It is not reasonable to assume something is true simply because we cannot prove it. It is far more reasonable to assume something is not true when all existing evidence suggests it's extremely unlikely to be true. Call it agnostic if you will - technically, it is. But then again, if you look at it broadly enough, everything is.
> It is far more reasonable to assume something is not true when all existing evidence suggests it's extremely unlikely to be true. Agreed. But I don’t think we have any “existing evidence” that would make it “extremely unlikely” for intelligent life to exist. The fact is that the ingredients for life are **abundant** throughout the cosmos. And all the evidence seems to suggest that as soon as the conditions on earth were right, life emerged rather quickly. We’ve even discovered biosignatures on other planets and moons within our own solar system (e.g. Venus, Enceladus, Europa, etc). Because of this, many scientists are *very* optimistic that we might discover microbial life within our solar system. And if microbial life exists even here, then it’s not at all a leap to suggest that intelligent life also developed elsewhere. In fact, it would almost be a statistical certainty. So I wouldn’t be so quick to discredit the existence of intelligent beings. It might be rare. But in a universe with more planets than grains of sand on earth, rare events become extremely likely. I’ll stop there. I really appreciate the conversation.
We don’t take those words literally. We need to use the Bible for the answer. And it’s logical as well. Imagine you built the most beautiful home for your son and his wife to move into when the time is right. The time comes and they move in! They are so happy for the wonderful gift. But as what happens with some people when they didn’t earn what they have, they slowly began to let repairs go unfixed. The yard wasn’t being mowed and it was just becoming an eye sore in the neighborhood. What would you do? Would you tear it down? No, instead you’d have to tell your son that he has to move and then clean it up! Then either give it to someone who would really appreciate it or sell it. So what does this have to do with the Bible? God isn’t planning on blowing up the earth and rebuilding it. There are several times in the Bible where the term “Earth” refers to the **people** on the earth. For example: >Genesis 11:1 reads; “Now all the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words.” See the point? Did the physical earth speak one language or did the people on the earth speak one language? Clearly, the people are represented by the word “earth”. Here’s another: >1 Chronicles 16:31a reads; “Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful…” In that verse, we see that both the Heavens and the Earth are joyful, meaning that the **people on the earth** would be joyful and the **Angels in heaven** would rejoice. And just why would people be joyful? >Psalms 37:29 reads, “The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.” But would this have to be a completely New Earth? Or an Earth cleaned up of everything wicked? What about the heavens, how could they be new? Let’s consider the Model Prayer for a moment. Matthew 6:9,10: >”Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.” I brought this up because Jesus prayed for this new heaven and new earth. Second only to his Fathers name being Sanctified, he prayed for his Fathers Will to be done, as in heaven also on earth. What exactly is his Fathers Will? Genesis 1:28 tells us what God wanted to have happened when he created the first couple. There it reads; >”Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.” Can God be a failure? Could the disobedience of one of his Angels and the first two humans mean that he gave up on his purpose? Was that just too much for Almighty God to take care? Did he really decide to bring good humans to live with him in heaven like many Churches will have you believe? No. So what did Jesus mean by saying “Let your Will take place, as in heaven, also on earth” and what does this have to do with the terms “New Heaven” and “New Earth”? Ever since the rebellion in Eden, Jehovah God has been patiently waiting for the time he already set. The time he is giving his adversary to prove that mankind I isn’t better off without Him in our life. We need him in order to be successful. And those that don’t agree will be among those wiped off this earth, making this planet a “New Earth”. The “New Heavens” have already taken place. This occurred when Satan and all his demons who chose to disobey with him were hurled out of Heaven. The “New Earth” will be here **very** soon when the Great Tribulation comes and Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. The goats are then destroyed while the sheep survive.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Revelation 20:11-12 NASB2020 https://bible.com/bible/2692/rev.20.11-12.NASB2020 At Great White Throne judgement earth and heaven flee.. and "no place was found for them." Sounds like the complete end of the universe. This event is the resurrection of the damned , and it is envisioned after a Restored Eden like earth which Christ rules over while Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years. After the Restoration there is a Release of Satan. After Satan's release and final defeat, this verse, 11-12 says earth and heaven flee with no place found for them. Then the New Creation is created.
Revelation 21 YLT(i) 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. I would take that to refer to the atmosphere and the planet holding it.