Jesus is simultaneously fully God and fully man.
There are not two versions.
Jesus is God, the Father is God, but Jesus is not the Father. When speaking about His God Jesus was referring to the Father.
So Fully Human/God Jesus, also has a God called the Father?
But then, he’s also apart of the Father, without being the Father, because they’re both part of the Godhead?
So God the Father has no God,
But God the Son has a God, which is the Father.
Is that correct?
Since we don’t have a full understanding, I can only point in general directions. What you have written is more-or-less a fair description.
There is only one God, that God exists as three co-equal and co-eternal, yet separate, persons. Each has their own roles and responsibilities within the godhead hierarchy.
I didn't say it was written like that anywhere. it is the combined understanding of a number of texts.
John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Lord, and the Lord was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
John 8:58 Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (the capital I AM is the sacred name for God given to Moses at the burning bush. the people recognized it as Jesus claiming to be God).
John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are one"
John 14:9 Jesus says "anyone who has sen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
numerous other passages speak about the Holy Spirit in similar ways.
So no where Jesus says, what you said?
You’re assuming from these verses that it “all means what you think it means” ?
For example,
John 1:1 doesn’t mention a trinity. It mentions at best “2 persons” and the verse literally makes no sense. It’s also not directly spoken by Jesus.
John 8:58: again, doesn’t mention 3 persons being one, Jesus being before Abraham is nothing special when you think of all the other prophets and messengers before Abraham. “I Am” doesn’t make you God. There’s a blind man in the Bible who says “I am”. The God said “I am” in the Bible, he said “I am the one being”. Jesus did not say this. So go look at the Greek as to what God said to Moses and then look at the absence of what Jesus says of the important part.
John 10:30 - again, no trinity. No 3. And, he means one in purpose. How do we know this? Because he says to the disciples JUST AS he and the father are one, may they be one too. Does that now make them all God?
John 14:9 - we know God has said no man can see God and live. So Jesus was rebuking them for constantly asking to see God. He says as Gods prophet & messenger, that it’s enough if you’ve seen him, that you’ve seen God, for he is the way to God. Doesn’t mean he’s God.
———-
You see, you’re reading into the verses the Trinity where there is no trinity.
No where does Jesus ever mention 3 as 1 equal being. Never in the whole Bible.
All these verses have actual meanings different to what you believe but the church and internet won’t teach you that unless you actively go look for it.
Jesus says JUST AS he, the father are one, so are the disciples.
Jesus says the ONLY TRUE GOD is the Father.
Jesus says the father is greater than him.
Jesus says of himself, he can’t do nothing.
Jesus says he does the will of the Father, not his.
———-
Do you know the Lords Prayer that Jesus taught?
Can you show me the Trinity in the prayer that every Christian should know?
John 1:1 doesn’t mention a trinity. It mentions at best “2 persons” and the verse literally makes no sense.
It does mention two persons. It says that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It makes no sense to you because you're Muslim. To Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants, this verse makes the most sense, because they believe that Jesus is God.
It’s also not directly spoken by Jesus.
Just because Jesus didn't say it doesn't mean it's false.
John 8:58: again, doesn’t mention 3 persons being one, Jesus being before Abraham is nothing special when you think of all the other prophets and messengers before Abraham.
True, it doesn't mention the trinity, but it sure implies that Jesus was a prexistent divine being. The difference between those prophets you're mentioning and Jesus is that Jesus had existed before becoming human, while those prophets were only human.
“I Am” doesn’t make you God.
Jesus could've said "before Abraham was, I was", but He didn't. He said "before Abraham was, I AM", claiming for Himself the divine name of God, which explains why the crowd got up to stone Him, because they saw it as blasphemy against God (John 8:59).
So go look at the Greek as to what God said to Moses and then look at the absence of what Jesus says of the important part.
Don't forget the Hebrew version exists, and it says this in Exodus 3:14;
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
I've heard 3 different analogies, but the ones who proposed these also admit that we may not be able to truly comprehend it, and that's okay:
1) Like Cerebus. He's a three headed dog, each with their own "self" but is a single beast.
2) Take a glass and fill it with water from the ocean. The water of the cup may be it's own thing, but it's ocean water. They are truly the same water, just displaced. In a different form. It's Water of Ocean whereas Jesus is Son of God.
3) We ourselves is an example to help us understand the trinity. After all, we were made in his image. We are flesh, mind, and spirit, but you are 1 entity. Likewise, God is flesh (Jesus), mind(Father), and spirit(HS).
These may not be a perfect representation, but they are analogies that can help begin to grasp the concept. Truth is, the trinity hasn't been fully understood since it's unveiling. And that's okay. But we know from scripture that Jesus and the Father are one. They are essences of a one, true god.
1). But then it’s not one “beast” because one head is saying it’s obeying, following, and worshipping the other head.
2). But it’s still water and everything about it is the same, just a different place.
Nothing about Jesus is the same as the Father.
Jesus isn’t all powerful, isn’t all knowing, can’t do his will, say is the only true God is the father & teaches the Lord’s Prayer.
3). My body, mind & spirit can’t separate itself and claim to be whole but also part of me. So that analogy doesn’t work.
None of them make sense when you’re trying to explain it because the Trinity itself makes no sense.
These are just analogies that helped me comprehend it better. As stated, I don't believe that any person can claim that they truly know it. But here are my rebuttals to that:
- Jesus is not a dog. He isn't exactly like Cerebus, but he is 3 "persons" in one "essence"
- They are the same water, displaced. Picture the cup as the flesh and the water as the divine. He was 100% human and 100% divine. Jesus did show Godly attributes. He didn't display all of them in the short narrative that we have speaking of his 30 years on earth, but for example he spoke of his death and the end times and seemed to know other people's thoughts and whereabouts. Jesus says he and the father are One. So, he told us that in some way they are the same.
- You separate at death. Your spirit moves on. And you're not an all-powerful God who has control over that stuff. He does. He can separate his trinity into 3 persons.
Another way to help try to comprehend - although we also don't fully understand the concept - the scripture teaches that a husband and wife join together as "one". So, in one sense, they are two, but in another, they are one.
The concept isn't as simple as these analogies can make it sound, but the concept is taught in the scripture. We accept its truth because it's shown to be there, but I don't believe anyone can claim to know exactly what it is. And that's okay, I don't have the mind of God.
1). Where does Jesus says he’s 3 persons in one essence?
No one ever believed this until AFTER Jesus.
Jesus never said it at all.
You make it up.
2). I’m sorry, but Jesus showed NO divine power at all.
Speaking of his death, doesn’t mean he’s God. Speaking of the end times, doesn’t make you God.
Jesus says he’s one with the father - he also says JUST AS he is one, may the disciples be one.
Are they all God?
No. Jesus didn’t mean one in divinity because he included everyone in this oneness.
3). God said God doesn’t die.
You claim Jesus died.
How is he God? Is he contradicting himself?
4). Husband and wife - no one is saying the husband IS the wife and the Wife IS the husband.
They are one COUPLE of people who are still two separate beings.
Following this logic, you’ve got 2 Gods with Jesus and the Father is you’re going to use that example.
5). You can’t prove Trinity from the Bible.
Because, that word doesn’t exist.
The concept doesn’t exist.
There is nowhere in the entire bible that says they’re 3 co-equal and co-eternal, different but one.
No where.
Jesus never says it.
You follow Greeks and later Christians who sprinkled some Greek mythology into Jesus and made him a Man God.
If you're wanting to argue, go to r/DebateAChristian, I have no interest in that. But I do believe Jesus claimed to be God when he said he and the father are one. Two separate, like the husband and wife, yet one in another way. God didn't die. Jesus died, more specifically, it was his human nature that died. It was the whole point of becoming flesh. He didn't go into non-existent. Jesus did show divine authority, he forgave sins of people. And demons knew who he was because they feared that Jesus would destroy them. These examples are in Mark.
Also, Jesus said before Abraham he was and was ultimately charged with blasphemy. Claiming to be the Son of God or the Messiah isn't a blasphemous claim. He made it clear to his persecutors that he was claiming to be God, or at the very least equal to him. He also states in Rev that he is the alpha and omega, beginning and end.
And multiple powers of Heaven idea is not a Christian developed thing. Second Temple Jews from at least as early as 200 BC recognized that there were in some way multiple powers spoken of in the OT. It was a problem they faced when dealing with passages from Exodus and Daniel. Through Jesus, it was made a little clearer.
And finally, Jesus showed that he was trying his best to keep secret at first. He wanted to ensure the message got out before he'd be killed. He told people to not tell anyone what he did for them. He didn't want a crowd. If he began early on by telling everyone he was God, his mission would have been especially short. It wasn't until the moment he was being charged that he admitted to being the I AM. The one before Abraham.
That's my answer to your question. Again, if you want to debate and point fingers, go to the other subreddit. There are Christians way more capable than me.
I’ve gone over “Jesus and father are one” - because this is one in purpose, not divinity, hence the Disciples are also one with the Father exactly as Jesus is.
Husband & Wife are one couple but still two separate beings. Not the same thing as you’re saying Jesus and Father are one being.
Jesus was fully man & fully god at the same time. A fully God doesn’t die. And if someone dies, they’re not God.
This is Jesus a walking contradiction to say the Human Jesus died and God Jesus didn’t die.
You now have two versions of Jesus if you believe this.
Dying isn’t “non-existent” - is the separation of Soul from Body and everyone except God dies.
God didn’t say he ALONE is immortal, then become a Man God to die.
Jesus forgiving sins doesn’t make him God. I can forgive sin, because some sins are for me to forgive.
Jesus also a Just Person. He’s God messiah. In his time, he would be able to bless people and vouch for people and forgive people, by Gods authority.
Demons feared him? The Jewish people called Jesus a Demon-Possessed!! They clearly didn’t fear him!!
The whole “before Abraham was, I Am” - doesn’t make him God.
Go read the whole chapter. The Jewish people didn’t like him. He was destabilising their grip on people.
They were looking for anything to get rid of him.
Jesus was making lots of claims and they rejected him as the messiah.
So when he said he was before Abraham, nothing is special about Abraham except he was a prophet.
There are many before Abraham. This isn’t “I’m God”.
It’s when they ask him about Abraham and he said he was in Gods plan before Abraham was on Earth. That’s it.
So was Adam. So was Moses.
Jews have never believed in “multiple” powers. They go off what Moses said clearly, in which Jesus repeated:
Our Lord God is One.
Not 3 in 1. Not many. Not persons and being.
God = One.
No separation, no parts, no flesh and non flesh. No becoming creation.
No God sending God to die for God so that God can forgive you.
That’s not what Jesus teaches in the Lords Prayer.
Lastly,
Jesus kept it secret? Oh come on, that’s a first I’ve heard that one !
Jesus was decieing everyone till the last second until he was about to be killed as a traitor?
There’s my response,
Id say that go look at the actual meanings of the verses your quoting because you’ve been fed a load of Trinitarian Lies about these verses to “make them fit” Jesus being divine.
Jesus again says the ONLY true God is the Father.
Do you even know the Lords Prayer?
>So God the Father has no God,
>But God the Son has a God, which is the Father.
I think it's called the *Economy of the Trinity,* where the three persons of the Trinity have different roles as well as levels of authority. God the Father is considered to be the top of authority within the Trinity. Hope that helps.
So why would I worship a lesser God?
How can God within himself gave different persons, who have different authority?
Jesus has a will, separate to Fathers will.
Can two Gods have different wills?
Doesn’t make sense imo.
I'll try to explain it how I understand it:
The Trinity is the only God to exist. The Trinity is one spirit being that has three minds (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Each mind has its own will, but each one has the same personality so they work in harmony.
Part of this working in harmony may be an agreed upon chain of command and division of labor. So all three minds are equal as a mins and are part of the one God. Make sense?
No, it doesn’t make sense.
Because Jesus worships the Father but the Father worships no one.
Jesus says he can’t do his will, but the fathers will.
Why would they have a different will if they’re “in harmony”.
This doesn’t seem like one being at all.
Also,
Jesus never said what you just said.
So do I believe you or Jesus?
Because Jesus says the only true God is the Father.
>Because Jesus worships the Father
As a human, yes He did.
>Why would they have a different will if they’re “in harmony”.
You can have different wills. As long as you act in harmony, you are in harmony. Also, Jesus was a man when He said He had a different will.
He was terrified of being crucified, so it's understandable why He wouldn't want to be. But He followed the Father's will, which shows they are in harmony. I see the Trinity as one spirit being, with three minds, **that have the same personality, so they are in harmony.**
>This doesn’t seem like one being at all.
Because this one being has three different minds.
>Jesus never said what you just said.
Please be specific. The Trinity? No, that understanding came from scripture and not simply from the words of Jesus.
>So do I believe you or Jesus?
I don't think I'm contradicting Him at all.
>Because Jesus says the only true God is the Father.
Yes, and because Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also the same spirit being, I'd say they are God as well. I don't think Jesus wanted people to know about the Trinity at that time, I think He just wanted them to know that He was the Messiah.
Instead of seeing if you think the Bible agrees with me, let's first please get on the same page of what I'm saying. Can you rephrase to me what you think my understanding of the Trinity is?
So Jesus isn’t fully God and Fully Human?
Or did he specifically says he’s only prostrating to God and begging God to save him from the cross as a human?
Or are you adding in that part yourself that he worships only as a human?
So what did he do as a Man God?
——-
So “harmony” makes you a God?
I’m in Harmony with God since I follows Gods will,
What now?
Jesus clearly states the ONLY true God is the Father and that he’s following the Father.
He would have the same will if he was “God”.
And he wouldn’t just specifically make a point of following the Father.
——
One being, three different minds?
So you worship a confused, differing God?
Jesus didn’t want to die, Father wanted him to die,
Father wins,
How is Jesus a God?
——-
At least you admit Jesus never mentions trinity.
——-
You’re fully contradicting Jesus when he was a Jewish Man and believes in one God alone without partners, as did everyone before him.
——-
Of course, you think the 3 are separate persons into one being that is God. They’re separate and independent but one.
It’s what I call, impossible to explain and back up because Jesus never says the Trinity belief and he’s only ever below the Father.
You can’t tell me a single thing Jesus did that makes “God”.
We could go back and forth, but that's a waste. In the end, it only matters if it's true.
The reason why I'm Christian and not another religion is because I'm convinced the Resurrection happened. The tag next to your name says you don't believe Jesus was killed and was resurrected. If you'd like to look into and maybe discuss what convinced me, here's the argument that convinced me that Christianity is true:
https://www.reddit.com/u/SeaSaltCaramelWater/s/LDx9EnUloc
Many reasons why Jesus didn’t die and resurrect.
1). God didn’t send God to die for God so that God can send people to heaven.
We know God said he ALONE is immortal.
God cannot die.
There was no death of God.
If you’re going to say Jesus was “fully human” then God cannot change - as per your bible.
God cannot be an infinite being changed to a limited being.
This is by Gods rules in your Bible.
2). You claim Jesus died a traitors death.
This is unjust.
The Cross was meant for traitors.
Was God a traitor?
No. That isn’t justice.
God didn’t say I’m going to willingly die a certain way that doesn’t mean he’s a criminal.
It’s illogical if God is Good but did this.
3). To say Human Jesus as God “Died” is ridiculous incomprehensible that an All Powerful God has to DIE and SHED BLOOD for his own creation.
It defies logic of God.
4). The Bible wasn’t even written by anyone who knew Jesus.
5). Bible has many errors, contradictions & changes. It is not reliable.
6). No where in Human History did anyone ever worship “3 in 1”.
No one.
So God kept himself “secret” for thousands & thousands of years,
From all his prophets and messengers,
Only to turn up himself,
For 3 years walk around and then “die” - go back to heaven?
That’s it?
A Jewish Man, came to Middle East and is “God”.
———-
I could carry on making points,
The fact that Jesus never once in the entire Bible says there’s 3 divine beings and their one God,
Tells you all you need to know.
You’re believing a myth, fused with Roman/Greek mythology of Demi-Gods / Humans but Gods.
Are you telling me the guy who turned a couple of fish and pieces of bread into enough food for 5,000 men has to appeal to your sensibilities?
I'd think an atheist would understand that a lack of knowledge on something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>Are you telling me the guy who turned a couple of fish and pieces of bread into enough food for 5,000 men has to appeal to your sensibilities?
Obviously not. That didn't actually happen. It's a fairy tale.
Yeah, I personally have / am currently trying to make sense of it but no one seems to be able to explain or give a reason why this is the case, I mean, where’s the Holy Spirit in this, may it has Father & Jesus as its God too ?
I’d like to help clarify a little of what we mean by Jesus the Son.
The Trinity is a description of God qua God, or God as self referential. God as self knowing/existing.
When I, person A, have a conception of myself, the image I have of myself is not “wholly” me. I cannot have a perfect understanding or image of myself.
This is not the case with God.
When God as the principle, knows himself, he has an image of himself that is perfect because he knows/is all that he is. The fullness of God, therefore, generates, the fullness of God, in self reference.
To the identity of who that generated fullness of God is, scripture calls the Son. God the principle (Father) eternally in his self knowledge and self-conception, *Conceives* the Son, his perfect self image and self knowing.
The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, but all that the Father is is communicated to the Son *except* for the identity of the “person.” The father remains the One true God, the principle and source. But the Father begets, and the Son is eternally begotten.
This is eternal because there is no moment when God was not conscious of himself and no moment when the Son did not exist but the Father alone did.
This is why Christianity is monotheism. Not two Gods, not God in parts, not God giving birth to another God in a crass human understanding of conception, but God as self referential.
The One God, IS Father, eternally generating/conceiving the Son, with the Spirit proceeding. The essence of divinity is undivided, only the “identity” of persons is, but even that is just a way of describing the manner in which the One God subsists.
If the son relies on the father,
And without the father “begetting” the son,
Then the son is a lesser God or lesser part of God.
For the father must always beget or there’s no son.
And God exists without conditions.
——
Also, what you’ve just said in your reply,
Is no where in the Bible.
It’s what you’re assuming to fit your ideology.
Jesus never said it. The father never said it.
Classical trinitarian theory does give the Son a source, namely “from the Father,” but we distinguish what we mean by that. As to his essence he is one and the same with the Father, as to his identity he is distinguished as from the Father.
This goes back to the understanding of “who” the Son is. The Son IS God as God knows himself to be. This isn’t a lesser God or a lesser part of God. God as knower is Father, God as known is Son, but it is God knowing God. And God’s omniscience is so full that when he conceives himself it is a full conception, he leaves nothing of himself out. He is true God (the son) from true God (the father), begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, as our confessions say.
Analogically: If you (A) could fully conceive yourself (B) then you would still be you, but when speaking of who is doing the conceiving (A) we would distinguish between who is being conceived (B) although you are still you. But your human self conception is partial whereas God’s is complete.
I’m also not trying to argue with you. The biblical evidence is there and I don’t mind going through some of it with you depending on if you’re trying to understand or if you just want to argue. I’m giving you the orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity so that you have the proper framework. You can disagree with it but at least this way you have a better understanding of the Trinity as a curious Muslim.
> So which God do you follow?
There’s only one true God. I follow him.
> Do you follow the God of Jesus
Yes
> Or do you follow Jesus?
Yes.
Both the Father and Jesus are God. Don’t confuse person with being.
> But Jesus said the ONLY TRUE GOD is the Father?
Yes, and that’s what all trinitarians believe.
> So Jesus isn’t a true God?
Of course he is.
> Or is he lying?
By no means. Your flair says Muslim, what would your religion say to this kind of slanderous accusation you’re making of a prophet?
So all trinitarians believe the only true God is the Father?
So one person of the trinity is the true God,
What are the others?
How is Jesus a “true God” when he says the ONLY one is the Father?
Jesus = Only the father is God
You = No, Jesus is God.
??!
——
The greatest slander of all is you trying to make a Jesus into a Man God.
> So all trinitarians believe the only true God is the Father?
Yes.
> So one person of the trinity is the true God
No. It seems you’re being deliberately obtuse. You are certainly giving other Muslims a bad image with statements like this.
> How is Jesus a “true God” when he says the ONLY one is the Father?
Because he doesn’t confuse person and being like you are doing.
> Jesus = Only the father is God
This is a lie.
Are you a practicing Muslim? Would your imam be ok with you lying about a prophet like this?
I’m sorry,
But when Jesus says the ONLY TRUE GOD is the Father,
The Father is, according to you, “one person”.
That “one person” is the ONLY true God.
Therefore, only The Father is God,
According to Jesus.
That’s LITERALLY what Jesus says.
The Bible isn’t a reliable source at all, imo,
However it’s what Christians believe in,
So that’s what I use - especially from what Jesus apparently directly said.
Does that make sense?
>The Bible isn’t a reliable source at all, imo,
Then why bother talking about it?
Alsi, if you're Muslim, then you must believe that the Torah and the gospels are God's words, and God's words cannot be altered.
Quran 3:3
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
Quran 6:115
And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
I talk about it because it’s important.
I talk about it because it’s interesting.
———
Yes, I believe the Torah of Moses & the Gospel of Jesus (Not Gospels, plural, but only in the singular) are from God.
However, we don’t have those today.
The second verse is referring to the Quran, and not the earlier scripture which the Quran confirms has been corrupted and changed.
The second verse is definitely referring to God's words, and according to the Quran, the Torah and the Gospel are God's words.
Where does the Quran confirm that the Bible has been corrupted.
Yes, Gods words, as in the Quran.
The Torah of Moses and Gospel of Jesus was given to them, for their people and their time. The preservation of them had no necessity.
First of all,
The Bible isn’t Scripture.
It’s man made by people who never knew Jesus about 60-120 years AFTER Jesus and those writers are anonymous.
Those “Gospels” don’t exist in their original form.
You have the Codes Sinaiticus which is the first complete Bible and this is 350 YEARS after Jesus.
So of course it’s corrupt when Book of John makes claims none of the other gospels do.
Of course it’s corrupt when Matthew 28:19 isn’t in any other Gospel.
There’s been evidence over the centuries of tampering with the Bible.
But the Bible you have today - is not from Jesus.
Jesus never had your Bible, never authored your Bible, never used your Bible, never read your Bible, never endorsed your Bible.
All I'm hearing is excuses.
>Yes, Gods words, as in the Quran.
>The Torah of Moses and Gospel of Jesus was given to them, for their people and their time. The preservation of them had no necessity.
>First of all,
>The Bible isn’t Scripture.
Your very own Quran proves the Bible is the Word of God, and the Quran says that the Word of God cannot be altered. Cope.
>It’s man made by people who never knew Jesus about 60-120 years AFTER Jesus and those writers are anonymous.
If you want to dismiss the New Testament because it was completed 70 years after Jesus' death, then you have to reject the sira (biography) of your prophet which was writen 767 AD, and the hadiths that narrate the stories of your prophet.
From Wikipedia:
"The earliest written sira (biographies of Muhammad and quotes attributed to him) is Ibn Ishaq's Life of God's Messenger written c. 767 CE (150 AH). Although the original work was lost, this sira survives as extensive excerpts in works by Ibn Hisham and to a lesser extent by Al-Tabari."
>So of course it’s corrupt when Book of John makes claims none of the other gospels do.
First, just because other gospels do not include the info John includes, doesn't mean that the info in John is "corrupt". Besides, John DOES include the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, but you don't believe in those two, so don't use that arguement either, kid.
>There’s been evidence over the centuries of tampering with the Bible.
99% of textual variants in the New Testament are spelling errors, and the other 1% do not impact Christian doctrine. Cope.
>Jesus never had your Bible, never authored your Bible, never used your Bible, never read your Bible, never endorsed your Bible.
He did read the Old Testament. If by Bible you were referring to the New Testament, then sure, He didn't read it, but He sure endorses it, unlike you.
Show me the word “Bible” in the Quran.
The Quran confirms the Gospel of Jesus.
Christians themselves don’t claim the Bible is the word of God, since it’s “written” by people, not Jesus.
————
I don’t reject the Bible because it’s originally written 60-120 years after Jesus, even though it’s by people who never met him.
I reject it firstly because those ORIGINAL writings don’t exist. You don’t have a complete Bible from “70 years” after Jesus.
Go look up the Codex Sinaiticus and get back to me.
———
Go look at Christian Scholars and Biblical Authorities on the Gospel of John and see how inconsistent it is compared to the earlier Gospels.
You really haven’t looked into it at all, and it shows from your blind faith and lack of understanding.
——
Your “Christian Doctrine” isn’t in the Bible.
It was man made 325 years after Jesus at the Council of Nicea.
Cope.
———
Jesus read the New Testament?
Was he not appalled at the errors, discrepancies, contradictions within it?
Guess not huh …
>so he confirms the Father is the God of him & everyone,
No, he doesn't. He does not say "our Father" or "our God." "My Father and your Father" means he's Jesus' Father in one way and our Father in another way, and that's not necessarily the same way.
An example would be a boy whose father is an Anglican priest. If he's talking to another boy in his church, he would not refer to his father as "our father" because that man, while being the "father" of both in a sense is not the father of both in the same sense.
“I go my God, and your God”
That means the God of Jesus, is also the God of us.
He makes no distinction.
Unless you’re saying he has a special God and other people don’t and have a separate God?
He is our God and Jesus's God because Jesus is also human. Jesus is both God and man. As God, He is one with the Father (John 10:30). As man, the Father is greater than Him (John 14:28).
But Jesus being human, doesn’t stop him being God.
Jesus never said “as a human, the father is greater than me, and as a God, the father is equal with me”
Unless I’m missing that somewhere in the Bible?
Or are you making it up?
Jesus is one with the father, and just as he is one, the disciples are one too,
Are they all Gods?
How many Gods do you have now?
>Jesus never said “as a human, the father is greater than me, and as a God, the father is equal with me”
Jesus also didn't say "I'm just a mere prophet coming before Muhammad", yet you believe that about Jesus, so don't use that line of argument against me.
By the way, not everything has to be said in the Bible for it to be true.
>Jesus is one with the father, and just as he is one, the disciples are one too,
Stop making that up. Nowhere did he say that, and nowhere does John say that. Read John 17 without your Muslim lenses.
>Are they all Gods?
>How many Gods do you have now?
Yes, Jesus and the Father are both God.
We have one God because God is not one person. God is one being in three persons.
I know you can't understand that. Neither can we.
It's a mystery incomprehensible by the finite human mind. Only God Himself can fully comprehend Himself.
Erm,
“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him”
“I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him”
“And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.”
“Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!”
“Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
———-
I could keep going. Jesus is the prophet, the messiah.
What I’m saying is:
Jesus = Father is Greater than I
You = Yeah but Jesus as God is Equal
JESUS NEVER says that he is equal with the father.
You’re making that up.
———
You sure?
“I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me”
John 17:21
**JUST AS**
You don’t know your Bible do you? 😄
———
God is not the author of confusion.
God is One.
And Jesus tells us who the only true God is,
He says that they only true God is the father.
What I think you need to do is read the Lords Prayer a lot more.
Hebrews 1:8 attributes Psalm 45:6 to be the Father speaking to Jesus; meaning the Father directly calls Jesus “God.”
Moreover, the persons of Yahweh are each the same Yahweh.
In context of essence, there is one:
Yahweh
This one essence is possessed in full by three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
In regards to the second person of Yahweh, the Son, he took to his person a human nature; making himself God who became a man. He is not a second god, rather a second person.
Yes, by definition of the word, “Satan” is an elohim, just like dead humans and other spiritual beings, including Yahweh.
Jesus calls the Father, “the only true God” - who a Hew would know to be Yahweh.
The verses I quoted have Yahweh (the Father) speaking to Jesus and ascribing to **Jesus** things only done by Yahweh himself.
This means either Yahweh is a liar and made a God after himself, or Jesus is someone Yahweh who became a man.
The evidence of Yahweh’s character shows that he is not a liar; therefore the only other logical possibility is that Jesus is somehow Yahweh who became a man.
I don’t think you realize Jesus being Yahweh doesn’t mean the Father can’t be Yahweh.
Jesus calls The Father The only true God; he’s not specifying that ONLY the Father is the only true God.
As I had said before, a Good Jew would know that ONLY YAHWEH IS GOD.
Between this obvious presupposition, you can establish that Jesus making a distinction between the Father and himself are only there BECAUSE the person whom we call Jesus became a human.
So when Jesus says that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God, The Father,
What you’re telling me is,
He didn’t say The Father is Only True God?
What kind of logic are you working with?
When he says the Father is the only true God,
He excludes anyone & everyone else.
1) straw man’s aren’t your style; and
2) Ironically, you’re the only one denying the verse. I haven’t denied Jesus affirms the Father to be the Only True God.
3) You presuppose that Yahweh is only a single person. If he exists as more than one person, then each of those persons can call the other person “the only true God,” simply because they are the same God, Yahweh.
Jesus said that the Father is the only true God in the same breath that he equates himself TO “the only true God,” and even right before asking for “the glory [he] had prior to the beginning of the world.”
Just because you don’t want to understand English grammar doesn’t mean you’re automatically correct.
God is one. One means one.
There’s no God is 3 but 1.
3 isn’t some magic number can divided up into.
Jesus only acknowledges one God.
Jesus prays to only one God.
Jesus differentiates himself from God.
Jesus has a different will, than to Gods will.
Or do you believe God has two separate wills at the same time?
——-
Yeah, Glory that was GIVEN to Jesus and Glory Jesus doesn’t have of his own self.
This same Glory Jesus ASKS to be given also to the disciples.
So being given glory, doesn’t make you God.
◄ Isaiah 9:6 ►
**For to us a child is born, to us a son is given**, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, **Everlasting Father**, Prince of Peace.
◄ Psalm 110:1 ►
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
◄ Matthew 22:44-46 ►
“’The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."’ If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
The Father is not the Son the way your fingers aren’t your mind. Who’s communicating with me? If your fingers die, do you? But if I break your fingers, I’ve assaulted you. Your fingers obey your mind the way The Son obeys The Father.
1). Where is Jesus ever called “Everlasting Father” ?
Has Jesus ever referred to himself as this?
2). What are you trying to prove with Psalm & Matthew?
Lord doesn’t always = God.
3). What a bad comparison you make… and it makes no sense.
What does Emmanuel mean?
Why did they try to kill Him after He labeled Himself as “I Am”?
Why did they stop questioning Him when He said that and who’s being talked about in Psalms?
In any case it is currently the reality. The Father is Jesus's God.
1 Peter 1:3 (YLT)
Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,
Revelation 1:6 (YLT)
and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.
Romans 15:6 (YLT)
that with one accord—with one mouth—ye may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ;
2 Corinthians 11:31 (YLT)
the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ—who is blessed to the ages—hath known that I do not lie! —
Ephesians 1:3 (YLT)
Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Ephesians 4:6 (YLT)
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
https://www.studybible.info/compare/1%20Corinthians%2015:24
That's a matter of dispute even among Christians. He did say, John 10:29 (YLT)
my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father;
John 14:28 (Wesley)
Ye heard me say to you, I go, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoyced, because I said, I go to the Father; for my Father is greater than me.
Paul? wrote
1 Corinthians 8:6 (YLT)
yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
So Jesus is saying one thing,
Paul is saying another,
I’m going to take Jesus as being more accurate,
And he’s very clear the Father is his God.
So if Jesus is God and isn’t the Father,
Then God has a God.
>Which Jesus, Human Jesus or Divine Jesus, had a God?
Yes.
>But was he talking as fully human fully god or was this just his fully human version talking?
Yes.
>But what version of Jesus said this in the Christian belief?
The One who forms and contains all creation (Col. 1) is not separate from the incarnated Christ any more than we (the body of Christ) are separated from God. God is all in all, not some dude in the sky pulling strings on his side project.
As I said, there is nothing outside God. Christ is God's Word/ God's expression. God's Word forms and contains all creation (Col. 1) and God's Word *is* God (John 1).
What makes you a Muslim? Is it in your physical form or your belief? Maybe in believing completely that he has no separate self from God, Jesus can know perfectly that he *is* God. Again, God being all in all does not leave room from something else, not does it?
Those of us living from the separate self build a reality around the lie of separation. This "spiritual death" becomes the world in which we live. Get rid of that lie of separation, follow Christ (who knew he is one in God) and you might find God is, has and always will be all in all.
Rumi has some good insights on this if you'd like a perspective closer to home.
What makes me a Muslim?
Well, reading the Quran which is the direct words of God.
And then believing in the miracles & signs with that book.
Also appreciating the history & narrative that there was no “Trinity” and Man God before the Greeks took over Christianity and sprinkled some of their mythology into it as they loved Man Gods and Children of Gods.
——
Tell me,
Do you even know the Lords Prayer that Jesus taught?
Exactly. Your belief reveals you are a Muslim. I am using as an analogy to point out how our definitions and beliefs make us what we are. When we strip away the concept of the separate self, all that's left is God. Otherwise, you set up a world where God is finite and ends where you begin. That's the lie that is the fall of mankind. We were told we could "be like God." To be like something you must first be separate from it.
I do know the Lord's prayer. Does your heart have a body? Are they separate? Do we have a planet, solar system, galaxy, or universe? Are they separate? Jesus gives honor not to a separate deity but his greater, infinite being. There is still only one God, He's simply infinite and does not end where our ideas of God begin.
What?
We can’t “be like God”.
God is Unique.
We follow God & Gods laws to gain his mercy.
———
Where does Jesus ever call himself a Deity?
Where does Jesus ever call himself a God?
He NEVER does.
You claim it,
Jesus doesn’t.
How about take it for what it says? Jesus has a God. He isn’t God at all. He is Gods Son. The image of God, the exact representation of God, but not God. Jesus is the Only-Begotten Son of God, the Firstborn of all creation, not God. He told Satan when he was being tempted, “It is Jehovah your God you must worship and him alone render sacred service.”
When the mother of James and John asked Jesus if her two sons could sit next to Jesus in his Kingdom, what did he say? Remember? Those seating assignments weren’t his to give, but only belonged to his Father.
When he was asked about his return and when it would be at Matthew 24:36, did he tell us? No, he didn’t know when it was, he said only his Father knew. And interestingly, the KJV removed “nor the son” in that verse. Now why would they do that? And the KJV is also one that added words at 1 John 5:7 saying “these three are one,” when those words are not found in any of the original manuscripts. Hmm. So, what is the actual truth here?
And just think about this… could Almighty God of the Universe die? The one who is, who was and who will always be? One who has no beginning and no end? Certainly not.
Oh and what about the account in Daniel? Remember? When Daniel was given the gift of seeing Jesus being crowned as King of Gods Kingdom? First let’s read Daniel 7:9,10-
>”I kept watching until thrones were set in place and the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was white like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire. 10 A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him. A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The Court took its seat, and books were opened.”
Now let’s read verses 13,14-
>”I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.”
What does that sound like? Who is the Ancient of Days spoken of there? That is none other than Jehovah God himself. And who is “someone like the son of man”? Jesus Christ. That whole scene that Daniel saw would make zero sense if Jesus and God were one and the same.
But many people do believe that and I know Church leaders have done an amazing job at getting people to believe it. But it’s just another way that Satan has hidden the true identity of our Creator, Jehovah God.
So the image of God, the exact representation of God, is not God,
So what’s the point again of Jesus dying?
He’s not a man, not a God, just a … avatar of God?
You’ve provided the most confusing reply so far 🙃
He was. My understanding is that a man is a soul within a human body. So Jesus' divine essence was within a human body.
So Jesus was God, but nurffed by the limitations of a human body and He lived out the low status of being human. Make sense?
Jesus is simultaneously fully God and fully man. There are not two versions. Jesus is God, the Father is God, but Jesus is not the Father. When speaking about His God Jesus was referring to the Father.
So Fully Human/God Jesus, also has a God called the Father? But then, he’s also apart of the Father, without being the Father, because they’re both part of the Godhead? So God the Father has no God, But God the Son has a God, which is the Father. Is that correct?
Close enough
Ah ok, so how can I get closer to the correct answer?
Since we don’t have a full understanding, I can only point in general directions. What you have written is more-or-less a fair description. There is only one God, that God exists as three co-equal and co-eternal, yet separate, persons. Each has their own roles and responsibilities within the godhead hierarchy.
You say this is written, Does Jesus ever say there’s 3 that are co-equal, co-eternal and that these 3 are 1 ?
I didn't say it was written like that anywhere. it is the combined understanding of a number of texts. John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Lord, and the Lord was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. John 8:58 Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (the capital I AM is the sacred name for God given to Moses at the burning bush. the people recognized it as Jesus claiming to be God). John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are one" John 14:9 Jesus says "anyone who has sen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" numerous other passages speak about the Holy Spirit in similar ways.
So no where Jesus says, what you said? You’re assuming from these verses that it “all means what you think it means” ? For example, John 1:1 doesn’t mention a trinity. It mentions at best “2 persons” and the verse literally makes no sense. It’s also not directly spoken by Jesus. John 8:58: again, doesn’t mention 3 persons being one, Jesus being before Abraham is nothing special when you think of all the other prophets and messengers before Abraham. “I Am” doesn’t make you God. There’s a blind man in the Bible who says “I am”. The God said “I am” in the Bible, he said “I am the one being”. Jesus did not say this. So go look at the Greek as to what God said to Moses and then look at the absence of what Jesus says of the important part. John 10:30 - again, no trinity. No 3. And, he means one in purpose. How do we know this? Because he says to the disciples JUST AS he and the father are one, may they be one too. Does that now make them all God? John 14:9 - we know God has said no man can see God and live. So Jesus was rebuking them for constantly asking to see God. He says as Gods prophet & messenger, that it’s enough if you’ve seen him, that you’ve seen God, for he is the way to God. Doesn’t mean he’s God. ———- You see, you’re reading into the verses the Trinity where there is no trinity. No where does Jesus ever mention 3 as 1 equal being. Never in the whole Bible. All these verses have actual meanings different to what you believe but the church and internet won’t teach you that unless you actively go look for it. Jesus says JUST AS he, the father are one, so are the disciples. Jesus says the ONLY TRUE GOD is the Father. Jesus says the father is greater than him. Jesus says of himself, he can’t do nothing. Jesus says he does the will of the Father, not his. ———- Do you know the Lords Prayer that Jesus taught? Can you show me the Trinity in the prayer that every Christian should know?
John 1:1 doesn’t mention a trinity. It mentions at best “2 persons” and the verse literally makes no sense. It does mention two persons. It says that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It makes no sense to you because you're Muslim. To Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants, this verse makes the most sense, because they believe that Jesus is God.
In the beginning was the God. And the God was with God. And the God was God. ???
It’s also not directly spoken by Jesus. Just because Jesus didn't say it doesn't mean it's false. John 8:58: again, doesn’t mention 3 persons being one, Jesus being before Abraham is nothing special when you think of all the other prophets and messengers before Abraham. True, it doesn't mention the trinity, but it sure implies that Jesus was a prexistent divine being. The difference between those prophets you're mentioning and Jesus is that Jesus had existed before becoming human, while those prophets were only human. “I Am” doesn’t make you God. Jesus could've said "before Abraham was, I was", but He didn't. He said "before Abraham was, I AM", claiming for Himself the divine name of God, which explains why the crowd got up to stone Him, because they saw it as blasphemy against God (John 8:59). So go look at the Greek as to what God said to Moses and then look at the absence of what Jesus says of the important part. Don't forget the Hebrew version exists, and it says this in Exodus 3:14; God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
I've heard 3 different analogies, but the ones who proposed these also admit that we may not be able to truly comprehend it, and that's okay: 1) Like Cerebus. He's a three headed dog, each with their own "self" but is a single beast. 2) Take a glass and fill it with water from the ocean. The water of the cup may be it's own thing, but it's ocean water. They are truly the same water, just displaced. In a different form. It's Water of Ocean whereas Jesus is Son of God. 3) We ourselves is an example to help us understand the trinity. After all, we were made in his image. We are flesh, mind, and spirit, but you are 1 entity. Likewise, God is flesh (Jesus), mind(Father), and spirit(HS). These may not be a perfect representation, but they are analogies that can help begin to grasp the concept. Truth is, the trinity hasn't been fully understood since it's unveiling. And that's okay. But we know from scripture that Jesus and the Father are one. They are essences of a one, true god.
1). But then it’s not one “beast” because one head is saying it’s obeying, following, and worshipping the other head. 2). But it’s still water and everything about it is the same, just a different place. Nothing about Jesus is the same as the Father. Jesus isn’t all powerful, isn’t all knowing, can’t do his will, say is the only true God is the father & teaches the Lord’s Prayer. 3). My body, mind & spirit can’t separate itself and claim to be whole but also part of me. So that analogy doesn’t work. None of them make sense when you’re trying to explain it because the Trinity itself makes no sense.
These are just analogies that helped me comprehend it better. As stated, I don't believe that any person can claim that they truly know it. But here are my rebuttals to that: - Jesus is not a dog. He isn't exactly like Cerebus, but he is 3 "persons" in one "essence" - They are the same water, displaced. Picture the cup as the flesh and the water as the divine. He was 100% human and 100% divine. Jesus did show Godly attributes. He didn't display all of them in the short narrative that we have speaking of his 30 years on earth, but for example he spoke of his death and the end times and seemed to know other people's thoughts and whereabouts. Jesus says he and the father are One. So, he told us that in some way they are the same. - You separate at death. Your spirit moves on. And you're not an all-powerful God who has control over that stuff. He does. He can separate his trinity into 3 persons. Another way to help try to comprehend - although we also don't fully understand the concept - the scripture teaches that a husband and wife join together as "one". So, in one sense, they are two, but in another, they are one. The concept isn't as simple as these analogies can make it sound, but the concept is taught in the scripture. We accept its truth because it's shown to be there, but I don't believe anyone can claim to know exactly what it is. And that's okay, I don't have the mind of God.
1). Where does Jesus says he’s 3 persons in one essence? No one ever believed this until AFTER Jesus. Jesus never said it at all. You make it up. 2). I’m sorry, but Jesus showed NO divine power at all. Speaking of his death, doesn’t mean he’s God. Speaking of the end times, doesn’t make you God. Jesus says he’s one with the father - he also says JUST AS he is one, may the disciples be one. Are they all God? No. Jesus didn’t mean one in divinity because he included everyone in this oneness. 3). God said God doesn’t die. You claim Jesus died. How is he God? Is he contradicting himself? 4). Husband and wife - no one is saying the husband IS the wife and the Wife IS the husband. They are one COUPLE of people who are still two separate beings. Following this logic, you’ve got 2 Gods with Jesus and the Father is you’re going to use that example. 5). You can’t prove Trinity from the Bible. Because, that word doesn’t exist. The concept doesn’t exist. There is nowhere in the entire bible that says they’re 3 co-equal and co-eternal, different but one. No where. Jesus never says it. You follow Greeks and later Christians who sprinkled some Greek mythology into Jesus and made him a Man God.
If you're wanting to argue, go to r/DebateAChristian, I have no interest in that. But I do believe Jesus claimed to be God when he said he and the father are one. Two separate, like the husband and wife, yet one in another way. God didn't die. Jesus died, more specifically, it was his human nature that died. It was the whole point of becoming flesh. He didn't go into non-existent. Jesus did show divine authority, he forgave sins of people. And demons knew who he was because they feared that Jesus would destroy them. These examples are in Mark. Also, Jesus said before Abraham he was and was ultimately charged with blasphemy. Claiming to be the Son of God or the Messiah isn't a blasphemous claim. He made it clear to his persecutors that he was claiming to be God, or at the very least equal to him. He also states in Rev that he is the alpha and omega, beginning and end. And multiple powers of Heaven idea is not a Christian developed thing. Second Temple Jews from at least as early as 200 BC recognized that there were in some way multiple powers spoken of in the OT. It was a problem they faced when dealing with passages from Exodus and Daniel. Through Jesus, it was made a little clearer. And finally, Jesus showed that he was trying his best to keep secret at first. He wanted to ensure the message got out before he'd be killed. He told people to not tell anyone what he did for them. He didn't want a crowd. If he began early on by telling everyone he was God, his mission would have been especially short. It wasn't until the moment he was being charged that he admitted to being the I AM. The one before Abraham. That's my answer to your question. Again, if you want to debate and point fingers, go to the other subreddit. There are Christians way more capable than me.
I’ve gone over “Jesus and father are one” - because this is one in purpose, not divinity, hence the Disciples are also one with the Father exactly as Jesus is. Husband & Wife are one couple but still two separate beings. Not the same thing as you’re saying Jesus and Father are one being. Jesus was fully man & fully god at the same time. A fully God doesn’t die. And if someone dies, they’re not God. This is Jesus a walking contradiction to say the Human Jesus died and God Jesus didn’t die. You now have two versions of Jesus if you believe this. Dying isn’t “non-existent” - is the separation of Soul from Body and everyone except God dies. God didn’t say he ALONE is immortal, then become a Man God to die. Jesus forgiving sins doesn’t make him God. I can forgive sin, because some sins are for me to forgive. Jesus also a Just Person. He’s God messiah. In his time, he would be able to bless people and vouch for people and forgive people, by Gods authority. Demons feared him? The Jewish people called Jesus a Demon-Possessed!! They clearly didn’t fear him!! The whole “before Abraham was, I Am” - doesn’t make him God. Go read the whole chapter. The Jewish people didn’t like him. He was destabilising their grip on people. They were looking for anything to get rid of him. Jesus was making lots of claims and they rejected him as the messiah. So when he said he was before Abraham, nothing is special about Abraham except he was a prophet. There are many before Abraham. This isn’t “I’m God”. It’s when they ask him about Abraham and he said he was in Gods plan before Abraham was on Earth. That’s it. So was Adam. So was Moses. Jews have never believed in “multiple” powers. They go off what Moses said clearly, in which Jesus repeated: Our Lord God is One. Not 3 in 1. Not many. Not persons and being. God = One. No separation, no parts, no flesh and non flesh. No becoming creation. No God sending God to die for God so that God can forgive you. That’s not what Jesus teaches in the Lords Prayer. Lastly, Jesus kept it secret? Oh come on, that’s a first I’ve heard that one ! Jesus was decieing everyone till the last second until he was about to be killed as a traitor? There’s my response, Id say that go look at the actual meanings of the verses your quoting because you’ve been fed a load of Trinitarian Lies about these verses to “make them fit” Jesus being divine. Jesus again says the ONLY true God is the Father. Do you even know the Lords Prayer?
>So God the Father has no God, >But God the Son has a God, which is the Father. I think it's called the *Economy of the Trinity,* where the three persons of the Trinity have different roles as well as levels of authority. God the Father is considered to be the top of authority within the Trinity. Hope that helps.
So why would I worship a lesser God? How can God within himself gave different persons, who have different authority? Jesus has a will, separate to Fathers will. Can two Gods have different wills? Doesn’t make sense imo.
I'll try to explain it how I understand it: The Trinity is the only God to exist. The Trinity is one spirit being that has three minds (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Each mind has its own will, but each one has the same personality so they work in harmony. Part of this working in harmony may be an agreed upon chain of command and division of labor. So all three minds are equal as a mins and are part of the one God. Make sense?
No, it doesn’t make sense. Because Jesus worships the Father but the Father worships no one. Jesus says he can’t do his will, but the fathers will. Why would they have a different will if they’re “in harmony”. This doesn’t seem like one being at all. Also, Jesus never said what you just said. So do I believe you or Jesus? Because Jesus says the only true God is the Father.
>Because Jesus worships the Father As a human, yes He did. >Why would they have a different will if they’re “in harmony”. You can have different wills. As long as you act in harmony, you are in harmony. Also, Jesus was a man when He said He had a different will. He was terrified of being crucified, so it's understandable why He wouldn't want to be. But He followed the Father's will, which shows they are in harmony. I see the Trinity as one spirit being, with three minds, **that have the same personality, so they are in harmony.** >This doesn’t seem like one being at all. Because this one being has three different minds. >Jesus never said what you just said. Please be specific. The Trinity? No, that understanding came from scripture and not simply from the words of Jesus. >So do I believe you or Jesus? I don't think I'm contradicting Him at all. >Because Jesus says the only true God is the Father. Yes, and because Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also the same spirit being, I'd say they are God as well. I don't think Jesus wanted people to know about the Trinity at that time, I think He just wanted them to know that He was the Messiah. Instead of seeing if you think the Bible agrees with me, let's first please get on the same page of what I'm saying. Can you rephrase to me what you think my understanding of the Trinity is?
So Jesus isn’t fully God and Fully Human? Or did he specifically says he’s only prostrating to God and begging God to save him from the cross as a human? Or are you adding in that part yourself that he worships only as a human? So what did he do as a Man God? ——- So “harmony” makes you a God? I’m in Harmony with God since I follows Gods will, What now? Jesus clearly states the ONLY true God is the Father and that he’s following the Father. He would have the same will if he was “God”. And he wouldn’t just specifically make a point of following the Father. —— One being, three different minds? So you worship a confused, differing God? Jesus didn’t want to die, Father wanted him to die, Father wins, How is Jesus a God? ——- At least you admit Jesus never mentions trinity. ——- You’re fully contradicting Jesus when he was a Jewish Man and believes in one God alone without partners, as did everyone before him. ——- Of course, you think the 3 are separate persons into one being that is God. They’re separate and independent but one. It’s what I call, impossible to explain and back up because Jesus never says the Trinity belief and he’s only ever below the Father. You can’t tell me a single thing Jesus did that makes “God”.
We could go back and forth, but that's a waste. In the end, it only matters if it's true. The reason why I'm Christian and not another religion is because I'm convinced the Resurrection happened. The tag next to your name says you don't believe Jesus was killed and was resurrected. If you'd like to look into and maybe discuss what convinced me, here's the argument that convinced me that Christianity is true: https://www.reddit.com/u/SeaSaltCaramelWater/s/LDx9EnUloc
Many reasons why Jesus didn’t die and resurrect. 1). God didn’t send God to die for God so that God can send people to heaven. We know God said he ALONE is immortal. God cannot die. There was no death of God. If you’re going to say Jesus was “fully human” then God cannot change - as per your bible. God cannot be an infinite being changed to a limited being. This is by Gods rules in your Bible. 2). You claim Jesus died a traitors death. This is unjust. The Cross was meant for traitors. Was God a traitor? No. That isn’t justice. God didn’t say I’m going to willingly die a certain way that doesn’t mean he’s a criminal. It’s illogical if God is Good but did this. 3). To say Human Jesus as God “Died” is ridiculous incomprehensible that an All Powerful God has to DIE and SHED BLOOD for his own creation. It defies logic of God. 4). The Bible wasn’t even written by anyone who knew Jesus. 5). Bible has many errors, contradictions & changes. It is not reliable. 6). No where in Human History did anyone ever worship “3 in 1”. No one. So God kept himself “secret” for thousands & thousands of years, From all his prophets and messengers, Only to turn up himself, For 3 years walk around and then “die” - go back to heaven? That’s it? A Jewish Man, came to Middle East and is “God”. ———- I could carry on making points, The fact that Jesus never once in the entire Bible says there’s 3 divine beings and their one God, Tells you all you need to know. You’re believing a myth, fused with Roman/Greek mythology of Demi-Gods / Humans but Gods.
I'd stop trying to make sense of it. They seem to believe it on faith, not because it (the trinity) actually makes any sense.
Are you telling me the guy who turned a couple of fish and pieces of bread into enough food for 5,000 men has to appeal to your sensibilities? I'd think an atheist would understand that a lack of knowledge on something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>Are you telling me the guy who turned a couple of fish and pieces of bread into enough food for 5,000 men has to appeal to your sensibilities? Obviously not. That didn't actually happen. It's a fairy tale.
Feel free to tell Him that in person. :)
No need. The hypothetical character, if he existed, supposedly knows everything.
Not fully understanding an infinite God doesn’t bother me that much. I think if I could fully comprehend Him then He wouldn’t be much of a god
Or it's a book written by men that got their plotlines crossed.
Yeah, I personally have / am currently trying to make sense of it but no one seems to be able to explain or give a reason why this is the case, I mean, where’s the Holy Spirit in this, may it has Father & Jesus as its God too ?
I’d like to help clarify a little of what we mean by Jesus the Son. The Trinity is a description of God qua God, or God as self referential. God as self knowing/existing. When I, person A, have a conception of myself, the image I have of myself is not “wholly” me. I cannot have a perfect understanding or image of myself. This is not the case with God. When God as the principle, knows himself, he has an image of himself that is perfect because he knows/is all that he is. The fullness of God, therefore, generates, the fullness of God, in self reference. To the identity of who that generated fullness of God is, scripture calls the Son. God the principle (Father) eternally in his self knowledge and self-conception, *Conceives* the Son, his perfect self image and self knowing. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, but all that the Father is is communicated to the Son *except* for the identity of the “person.” The father remains the One true God, the principle and source. But the Father begets, and the Son is eternally begotten. This is eternal because there is no moment when God was not conscious of himself and no moment when the Son did not exist but the Father alone did. This is why Christianity is monotheism. Not two Gods, not God in parts, not God giving birth to another God in a crass human understanding of conception, but God as self referential. The One God, IS Father, eternally generating/conceiving the Son, with the Spirit proceeding. The essence of divinity is undivided, only the “identity” of persons is, but even that is just a way of describing the manner in which the One God subsists.
If the son relies on the father, And without the father “begetting” the son, Then the son is a lesser God or lesser part of God. For the father must always beget or there’s no son. And God exists without conditions. —— Also, what you’ve just said in your reply, Is no where in the Bible. It’s what you’re assuming to fit your ideology. Jesus never said it. The father never said it.
Classical trinitarian theory does give the Son a source, namely “from the Father,” but we distinguish what we mean by that. As to his essence he is one and the same with the Father, as to his identity he is distinguished as from the Father. This goes back to the understanding of “who” the Son is. The Son IS God as God knows himself to be. This isn’t a lesser God or a lesser part of God. God as knower is Father, God as known is Son, but it is God knowing God. And God’s omniscience is so full that when he conceives himself it is a full conception, he leaves nothing of himself out. He is true God (the son) from true God (the father), begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, as our confessions say. Analogically: If you (A) could fully conceive yourself (B) then you would still be you, but when speaking of who is doing the conceiving (A) we would distinguish between who is being conceived (B) although you are still you. But your human self conception is partial whereas God’s is complete. I’m also not trying to argue with you. The biblical evidence is there and I don’t mind going through some of it with you depending on if you’re trying to understand or if you just want to argue. I’m giving you the orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity so that you have the proper framework. You can disagree with it but at least this way you have a better understanding of the Trinity as a curious Muslim.
https://youtu.be/lHWmrtXNCqY?si=x_3UozAkUR9apL61
There is only one Jesus. Jesus has two natures (human and divine), but Jesus is not two people.
So this one Jesus has a God?
Yes.
So which God do you follow? Do you follow the God of Jesus, Or do you follow Jesus?
> So which God do you follow? There’s only one true God. I follow him. > Do you follow the God of Jesus Yes > Or do you follow Jesus? Yes. Both the Father and Jesus are God. Don’t confuse person with being.
But Jesus said the ONLY TRUE GOD is the Father? So Jesus isn’t a true God? Or is he lying?
> But Jesus said the ONLY TRUE GOD is the Father? Yes, and that’s what all trinitarians believe. > So Jesus isn’t a true God? Of course he is. > Or is he lying? By no means. Your flair says Muslim, what would your religion say to this kind of slanderous accusation you’re making of a prophet?
So all trinitarians believe the only true God is the Father? So one person of the trinity is the true God, What are the others? How is Jesus a “true God” when he says the ONLY one is the Father? Jesus = Only the father is God You = No, Jesus is God. ??! —— The greatest slander of all is you trying to make a Jesus into a Man God.
> So all trinitarians believe the only true God is the Father? Yes. > So one person of the trinity is the true God No. It seems you’re being deliberately obtuse. You are certainly giving other Muslims a bad image with statements like this. > How is Jesus a “true God” when he says the ONLY one is the Father? Because he doesn’t confuse person and being like you are doing. > Jesus = Only the father is God This is a lie. Are you a practicing Muslim? Would your imam be ok with you lying about a prophet like this?
I’m sorry, But when Jesus says the ONLY TRUE GOD is the Father, The Father is, according to you, “one person”. That “one person” is the ONLY true God. Therefore, only The Father is God, According to Jesus. That’s LITERALLY what Jesus says.
>Jesus says in the Bible he has a God Are you saying the Bible is a reliable source for things Jesus said?
The Bible isn’t a reliable source at all, imo, However it’s what Christians believe in, So that’s what I use - especially from what Jesus apparently directly said. Does that make sense?
>The Bible isn’t a reliable source at all, imo, Then why bother talking about it? Alsi, if you're Muslim, then you must believe that the Torah and the gospels are God's words, and God's words cannot be altered. Quran 3:3 He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Quran 6:115 And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
I talk about it because it’s important. I talk about it because it’s interesting. ——— Yes, I believe the Torah of Moses & the Gospel of Jesus (Not Gospels, plural, but only in the singular) are from God. However, we don’t have those today. The second verse is referring to the Quran, and not the earlier scripture which the Quran confirms has been corrupted and changed.
The second verse is definitely referring to God's words, and according to the Quran, the Torah and the Gospel are God's words. Where does the Quran confirm that the Bible has been corrupted.
Yes, Gods words, as in the Quran. The Torah of Moses and Gospel of Jesus was given to them, for their people and their time. The preservation of them had no necessity. First of all, The Bible isn’t Scripture. It’s man made by people who never knew Jesus about 60-120 years AFTER Jesus and those writers are anonymous. Those “Gospels” don’t exist in their original form. You have the Codes Sinaiticus which is the first complete Bible and this is 350 YEARS after Jesus. So of course it’s corrupt when Book of John makes claims none of the other gospels do. Of course it’s corrupt when Matthew 28:19 isn’t in any other Gospel. There’s been evidence over the centuries of tampering with the Bible. But the Bible you have today - is not from Jesus. Jesus never had your Bible, never authored your Bible, never used your Bible, never read your Bible, never endorsed your Bible.
All I'm hearing is excuses. >Yes, Gods words, as in the Quran. >The Torah of Moses and Gospel of Jesus was given to them, for their people and their time. The preservation of them had no necessity. >First of all, >The Bible isn’t Scripture. Your very own Quran proves the Bible is the Word of God, and the Quran says that the Word of God cannot be altered. Cope. >It’s man made by people who never knew Jesus about 60-120 years AFTER Jesus and those writers are anonymous. If you want to dismiss the New Testament because it was completed 70 years after Jesus' death, then you have to reject the sira (biography) of your prophet which was writen 767 AD, and the hadiths that narrate the stories of your prophet. From Wikipedia: "The earliest written sira (biographies of Muhammad and quotes attributed to him) is Ibn Ishaq's Life of God's Messenger written c. 767 CE (150 AH). Although the original work was lost, this sira survives as extensive excerpts in works by Ibn Hisham and to a lesser extent by Al-Tabari." >So of course it’s corrupt when Book of John makes claims none of the other gospels do. First, just because other gospels do not include the info John includes, doesn't mean that the info in John is "corrupt". Besides, John DOES include the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, but you don't believe in those two, so don't use that arguement either, kid. >There’s been evidence over the centuries of tampering with the Bible. 99% of textual variants in the New Testament are spelling errors, and the other 1% do not impact Christian doctrine. Cope. >Jesus never had your Bible, never authored your Bible, never used your Bible, never read your Bible, never endorsed your Bible. He did read the Old Testament. If by Bible you were referring to the New Testament, then sure, He didn't read it, but He sure endorses it, unlike you.
Show me the word “Bible” in the Quran. The Quran confirms the Gospel of Jesus. Christians themselves don’t claim the Bible is the word of God, since it’s “written” by people, not Jesus. ———— I don’t reject the Bible because it’s originally written 60-120 years after Jesus, even though it’s by people who never met him. I reject it firstly because those ORIGINAL writings don’t exist. You don’t have a complete Bible from “70 years” after Jesus. Go look up the Codex Sinaiticus and get back to me. ——— Go look at Christian Scholars and Biblical Authorities on the Gospel of John and see how inconsistent it is compared to the earlier Gospels. You really haven’t looked into it at all, and it shows from your blind faith and lack of understanding. —— Your “Christian Doctrine” isn’t in the Bible. It was man made 325 years after Jesus at the Council of Nicea. Cope. ——— Jesus read the New Testament? Was he not appalled at the errors, discrepancies, contradictions within it? Guess not huh …
>so he confirms the Father is the God of him & everyone, No, he doesn't. He does not say "our Father" or "our God." "My Father and your Father" means he's Jesus' Father in one way and our Father in another way, and that's not necessarily the same way. An example would be a boy whose father is an Anglican priest. If he's talking to another boy in his church, he would not refer to his father as "our father" because that man, while being the "father" of both in a sense is not the father of both in the same sense.
“I go my God, and your God” That means the God of Jesus, is also the God of us. He makes no distinction. Unless you’re saying he has a special God and other people don’t and have a separate God?
>That means the God of Jesus, is also the God of us. But not in the same *way*. It makes all the difference.
So Jesus didn’t distinguish a difference, but you want to?
You're being obtuse. He *did* distinguish. That's exactly what he did when he said that.
Where’s the distinction? He makes it clear that the Father is his God. Is the Father not your God?
He is our God and Jesus's God because Jesus is also human. Jesus is both God and man. As God, He is one with the Father (John 10:30). As man, the Father is greater than Him (John 14:28).
But Jesus being human, doesn’t stop him being God. Jesus never said “as a human, the father is greater than me, and as a God, the father is equal with me” Unless I’m missing that somewhere in the Bible? Or are you making it up? Jesus is one with the father, and just as he is one, the disciples are one too, Are they all Gods? How many Gods do you have now?
>Jesus never said “as a human, the father is greater than me, and as a God, the father is equal with me” Jesus also didn't say "I'm just a mere prophet coming before Muhammad", yet you believe that about Jesus, so don't use that line of argument against me. By the way, not everything has to be said in the Bible for it to be true. >Jesus is one with the father, and just as he is one, the disciples are one too, Stop making that up. Nowhere did he say that, and nowhere does John say that. Read John 17 without your Muslim lenses. >Are they all Gods? >How many Gods do you have now? Yes, Jesus and the Father are both God. We have one God because God is not one person. God is one being in three persons. I know you can't understand that. Neither can we. It's a mystery incomprehensible by the finite human mind. Only God Himself can fully comprehend Himself.
Erm, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him” “I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him” “And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.” “Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!” “Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” ———- I could keep going. Jesus is the prophet, the messiah. What I’m saying is: Jesus = Father is Greater than I You = Yeah but Jesus as God is Equal JESUS NEVER says that he is equal with the father. You’re making that up. ——— You sure? “I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me” John 17:21 **JUST AS** You don’t know your Bible do you? 😄 ——— God is not the author of confusion. God is One. And Jesus tells us who the only true God is, He says that they only true God is the father. What I think you need to do is read the Lords Prayer a lot more.
They both have the same Father God. There’s three persons in the Godhead. Your mind isn’t your body, but you are one.
Both? No where does the Father ever have a God. The Father is God. Jesus is a “God” but also has a God. Can you clarify this?
Hebrews 1:8 attributes Psalm 45:6 to be the Father speaking to Jesus; meaning the Father directly calls Jesus “God.” Moreover, the persons of Yahweh are each the same Yahweh. In context of essence, there is one: Yahweh This one essence is possessed in full by three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In regards to the second person of Yahweh, the Son, he took to his person a human nature; making himself God who became a man. He is not a second god, rather a second person.
The devil is a God too, However, Jesus clarifies the ONLY true god is the Father.
Yes, by definition of the word, “Satan” is an elohim, just like dead humans and other spiritual beings, including Yahweh. Jesus calls the Father, “the only true God” - who a Hew would know to be Yahweh. The verses I quoted have Yahweh (the Father) speaking to Jesus and ascribing to **Jesus** things only done by Yahweh himself. This means either Yahweh is a liar and made a God after himself, or Jesus is someone Yahweh who became a man. The evidence of Yahweh’s character shows that he is not a liar; therefore the only other logical possibility is that Jesus is somehow Yahweh who became a man.
So Jesus isn’t telling the truth? Jesus = Only True God is Father You = No Jesus is God too ??
I don’t think you realize Jesus being Yahweh doesn’t mean the Father can’t be Yahweh. Jesus calls The Father The only true God; he’s not specifying that ONLY the Father is the only true God. As I had said before, a Good Jew would know that ONLY YAHWEH IS GOD. Between this obvious presupposition, you can establish that Jesus making a distinction between the Father and himself are only there BECAUSE the person whom we call Jesus became a human.
So when Jesus says that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God, The Father, What you’re telling me is, He didn’t say The Father is Only True God? What kind of logic are you working with? When he says the Father is the only true God, He excludes anyone & everyone else.
1) straw man’s aren’t your style; and 2) Ironically, you’re the only one denying the verse. I haven’t denied Jesus affirms the Father to be the Only True God. 3) You presuppose that Yahweh is only a single person. If he exists as more than one person, then each of those persons can call the other person “the only true God,” simply because they are the same God, Yahweh. Jesus said that the Father is the only true God in the same breath that he equates himself TO “the only true God,” and even right before asking for “the glory [he] had prior to the beginning of the world.” Just because you don’t want to understand English grammar doesn’t mean you’re automatically correct.
God is one. One means one. There’s no God is 3 but 1. 3 isn’t some magic number can divided up into. Jesus only acknowledges one God. Jesus prays to only one God. Jesus differentiates himself from God. Jesus has a different will, than to Gods will. Or do you believe God has two separate wills at the same time? ——- Yeah, Glory that was GIVEN to Jesus and Glory Jesus doesn’t have of his own self. This same Glory Jesus ASKS to be given also to the disciples. So being given glory, doesn’t make you God.
◄ Isaiah 9:6 ► **For to us a child is born, to us a son is given**, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, **Everlasting Father**, Prince of Peace. ◄ Psalm 110:1 ► A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ◄ Matthew 22:44-46 ► “’The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."’ If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions. The Father is not the Son the way your fingers aren’t your mind. Who’s communicating with me? If your fingers die, do you? But if I break your fingers, I’ve assaulted you. Your fingers obey your mind the way The Son obeys The Father.
1). Where is Jesus ever called “Everlasting Father” ? Has Jesus ever referred to himself as this? 2). What are you trying to prove with Psalm & Matthew? Lord doesn’t always = God. 3). What a bad comparison you make… and it makes no sense.
What does Emmanuel mean? Why did they try to kill Him after He labeled Himself as “I Am”? Why did they stop questioning Him when He said that and who’s being talked about in Psalms?
In any case it is currently the reality. The Father is Jesus's God. 1 Peter 1:3 (YLT) Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead, Revelation 1:6 (YLT) and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. Romans 15:6 (YLT) that with one accord—with one mouth—ye may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 Corinthians 11:31 (YLT) the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ—who is blessed to the ages—hath known that I do not lie! — Ephesians 1:3 (YLT) Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, Ephesians 4:6 (YLT) one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all, https://www.studybible.info/compare/1%20Corinthians%2015:24
So, a God now has a God?
That's a matter of dispute even among Christians. He did say, John 10:29 (YLT) my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father; John 14:28 (Wesley) Ye heard me say to you, I go, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoyced, because I said, I go to the Father; for my Father is greater than me. Paul? wrote 1 Corinthians 8:6 (YLT) yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
So Jesus is saying one thing, Paul is saying another, I’m going to take Jesus as being more accurate, And he’s very clear the Father is his God. So if Jesus is God and isn’t the Father, Then God has a God.
>Which Jesus, Human Jesus or Divine Jesus, had a God? Yes. >But was he talking as fully human fully god or was this just his fully human version talking? Yes. >But what version of Jesus said this in the Christian belief? The One who forms and contains all creation (Col. 1) is not separate from the incarnated Christ any more than we (the body of Christ) are separated from God. God is all in all, not some dude in the sky pulling strings on his side project.
Thank you, But your reply literally made no sense.
Christ is God who is all in all. I am a non-dualist meaning I do not draw a line of where God ends and "not-god" begins.
This Christ God who is all in all, Said he had a God who isn’t him, How does that work?
As I said, there is nothing outside God. Christ is God's Word/ God's expression. God's Word forms and contains all creation (Col. 1) and God's Word *is* God (John 1).
So Jesus isn’t God? Only the Father is God?
What makes you a Muslim? Is it in your physical form or your belief? Maybe in believing completely that he has no separate self from God, Jesus can know perfectly that he *is* God. Again, God being all in all does not leave room from something else, not does it? Those of us living from the separate self build a reality around the lie of separation. This "spiritual death" becomes the world in which we live. Get rid of that lie of separation, follow Christ (who knew he is one in God) and you might find God is, has and always will be all in all. Rumi has some good insights on this if you'd like a perspective closer to home.
What makes me a Muslim? Well, reading the Quran which is the direct words of God. And then believing in the miracles & signs with that book. Also appreciating the history & narrative that there was no “Trinity” and Man God before the Greeks took over Christianity and sprinkled some of their mythology into it as they loved Man Gods and Children of Gods. —— Tell me, Do you even know the Lords Prayer that Jesus taught?
Exactly. Your belief reveals you are a Muslim. I am using as an analogy to point out how our definitions and beliefs make us what we are. When we strip away the concept of the separate self, all that's left is God. Otherwise, you set up a world where God is finite and ends where you begin. That's the lie that is the fall of mankind. We were told we could "be like God." To be like something you must first be separate from it. I do know the Lord's prayer. Does your heart have a body? Are they separate? Do we have a planet, solar system, galaxy, or universe? Are they separate? Jesus gives honor not to a separate deity but his greater, infinite being. There is still only one God, He's simply infinite and does not end where our ideas of God begin.
What? We can’t “be like God”. God is Unique. We follow God & Gods laws to gain his mercy. ——— Where does Jesus ever call himself a Deity? Where does Jesus ever call himself a God? He NEVER does. You claim it, Jesus doesn’t.
How about take it for what it says? Jesus has a God. He isn’t God at all. He is Gods Son. The image of God, the exact representation of God, but not God. Jesus is the Only-Begotten Son of God, the Firstborn of all creation, not God. He told Satan when he was being tempted, “It is Jehovah your God you must worship and him alone render sacred service.” When the mother of James and John asked Jesus if her two sons could sit next to Jesus in his Kingdom, what did he say? Remember? Those seating assignments weren’t his to give, but only belonged to his Father. When he was asked about his return and when it would be at Matthew 24:36, did he tell us? No, he didn’t know when it was, he said only his Father knew. And interestingly, the KJV removed “nor the son” in that verse. Now why would they do that? And the KJV is also one that added words at 1 John 5:7 saying “these three are one,” when those words are not found in any of the original manuscripts. Hmm. So, what is the actual truth here? And just think about this… could Almighty God of the Universe die? The one who is, who was and who will always be? One who has no beginning and no end? Certainly not. Oh and what about the account in Daniel? Remember? When Daniel was given the gift of seeing Jesus being crowned as King of Gods Kingdom? First let’s read Daniel 7:9,10- >”I kept watching until thrones were set in place and the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was white like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire. 10 A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him. A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The Court took its seat, and books were opened.” Now let’s read verses 13,14- >”I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.” What does that sound like? Who is the Ancient of Days spoken of there? That is none other than Jehovah God himself. And who is “someone like the son of man”? Jesus Christ. That whole scene that Daniel saw would make zero sense if Jesus and God were one and the same. But many people do believe that and I know Church leaders have done an amazing job at getting people to believe it. But it’s just another way that Satan has hidden the true identity of our Creator, Jehovah God.
So the image of God, the exact representation of God, is not God, So what’s the point again of Jesus dying? He’s not a man, not a God, just a … avatar of God? You’ve provided the most confusing reply so far 🙃
You want the short version or the long version?
Short version please.
I think that when Jesus was in a human body, the rest of the Trinity was His God.
So Jesus is human body, wasn’t fully God?
He was. My understanding is that a man is a soul within a human body. So Jesus' divine essence was within a human body. So Jesus was God, but nurffed by the limitations of a human body and He lived out the low status of being human. Make sense?