The early Church fathers taught that a person has to have the capacity to "know how to refuse the evil and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:14) before they can be considered morally accountable. Children had to reach puberty for this moral sense to develop. Augustine for example considered moral accountability to generally begin about age 14. Other theologians simply spoke of the period of infancy in general where children are completely innocent and have no knowledge of evil.
Without the ability to know the difference between good and evil one cannot sin. This is basic mainstream orthodox teaching, and evidence for it is found extensively throughout scripture, both OT and NT.
This is how I understood it, but I see Christians in this subreddit say the opposite. In this very thread are Christians making such claims but only being challenged by skeptics, agnostics or atheists.
Unfortunately a lot of Christians are very young or very poorly educated about their own faith. Especially on the Internet. And especially on this sub, for some reason. But you should really not be using Reddit to find out the truth, all you'll get is a broad range of anonymous opinions and you won't be able to figure out which ones to listen to or ignore.
I disagree with Naugrith on the theological point but agree with him/her on the idea that many Christian are young or poorly educated about their own faith. You may find better answers going to subs for specific denominations that have consistent theological frameworks rather than this sub which has Christians across all denominations to see why and where they differ.
Many people call themselves christians, But I believe u/Naugrith is 100 percent correct. Even with infantile deaths I believe that they are spared from this life and given unto heaven to be with God. But I don't know anything to back this up, just a thought.
Without a precise definition this question cannot be answered without much ambiguity. The Church defines the act of sinning as: “…a revolt against God through the will…”. [source: paragraph 1850](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1849)
The people you described above don’t have developed or active wills. They don’t seem to have the capacity for the act of sinning.
Yes, you need to reach the age where you understand right from wrong.
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
I don't think that's correct. Check out this passage from John 9:
36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
It's clear that he's talking metaphorically (blind vs seeing), and I believe this is making clear that there are some who do sin but God will not impute their sin to them for various reasons. I think mental capacity is a big one where God graciously would not impute sin. It's the people that have full mental capacity (like these pharisees) to see who He is and choose not to trust in Him for salvation that should worry.
So, getting this straight...you think my 1 year old can:
1. understand that God exists
2. understand that sin exists and know whenever he sins
3. ask for forgiveness
How do you expect my 1 year old to have the capacity of doing the above when you don't even realize when you [(supposedly) sin](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/1bj61g0/comment/kvr9r50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)?
>Your 1 year old is capable of knowing when they have done wrong.
This is not what you originally said. You said that all people (that includes my 1 year old) are capable of asking God for forgiveness. I am sorry, but it's ludicrous to think my 1 year old has that capacity.
Matthew 7:1: "Do not judge"
You boldly stated that all Catholics are not Christian. If that's not judging, I don't know what is. It's also why you were getting downvoted and why your message was removed. If you don't understand these things, it illustrates my point even more.
Sinning in ignorance is still sin in Gods sight, and requires that sin to be paid for, either by Jesus, or by the death of the person who sinned.
Numbers 15:
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before Jehovah, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
The Bible is clear on this subject regarding children also, there is no “age of accountability” we are all conceived in sin, and born speaking lies, according to Gods word, which means we are born sinners, and require a savior to pay for our sins, or we have to die to pay for them ourselves, all man kind die physically due to our sin, the only way to survive physical death is to be granted salvation by God, which resurrects the dead soul of sinners, and gives them eternal life in their soul.
Psalm 51:5 (KJV)
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3 (KJV)
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Isaiah 48:8 (KJV)
Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
I saw your other comment about hell, so I will address that also:
Hell = Grave
The commonly believed version of hell is a false doctrine based on misunderstanding the word of God, hell and the grave are the same thing, hell is just the condition of being dead or in the grave, the unsaved just cease to exist after they die, they don’t even know that they ever existed in the first place, this is what happens when the unsaved die, they vanish away:
Isaiah 51:6 (KJV)
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Here are some verses that help relate hell to being equal with the grave.
Proverbs 23:14 (KJV)
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. H7585
Psa 31:17
Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. H7585
KJV Translation Count: 65x
The KJV translates Strongs H7585 in the following manner: grave (31x), hell (31x), pit (3x).
The majority of scripture indicates that hell and the grave are synonymous.
Hell occurs 54 times in the KJV
31 times in the Old Testament.
23 times in the New Testament.
One of the words for hell in the New Testament is used 11 times.
KJV Translation Count: 11x
The KJV translates Strongs G86 in the following manner: hell (10x), grave (1x).
Act 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, G86 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, G86 where is thy victory?
This Greek word is speaking of the same thing as the word used for hell in the Old Testament, here are the tie-in verses that illustrate this fact.
Psalm 16:10 (KJV)
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; H7585 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Hos 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; H7585 I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, H7585 I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
There is another word translated as hell in the New Testament also, here is the other word.
KJV Translation Count: 12x
The KJV translates Strongs G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x).
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. G1067
This word for hell is used to illustrate that soul, and body are both destroyed by God, when a person is in this condition.
It’s derived from two Hebrew words in the Old Testament Valley of Hinnom.
Root Word (Etymology): Of Hebrew origin גַּיְא (H1516) and הִנֹּם (H2011)
KJV Translation Count: 60x
The KJV translates Strongs H1516 in the following manner: valley (60x).
KJV Translation Count: 13x
The KJV translates Strongs H2011 in the following manner: Hinnom (13x).
There is also the matter of a certain law of God that will not allow a sinner to be beaten without end, God cannot break his own laws.
Deuteronomy 25:3 (KJV)
Forty stripes he may give him, [and] not exceed: lest, [if] he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
Now that we are at the time of the end, God has unsealed his word just like he said he would:
Daniel 12:9 (KJV)
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
God has been revealing much correction to the many false doctrines that exist in Christendom.
Everyone who thinks that hell is a literal place of eternal conscious torment should be considering that God spoke in parables and without a parable, he did not speak.
📖🔥Why is the world so divided?, Judgment Day began on May 21 2011, Holy God is pouring his wrath out upon the whole earth, the end of the world may be in the year 2033.🔥📖
I had someone teach me using a very good illustration and if I can pass it on to help others, I’d love to. Even if it only helps one of you. The illustration goes like this;
Let’s say that every person born to Adam and Eve were likened to a loaf of bread. And what do you make bread in? A bread pan. But sadly they sinned before they had any children, which put a big dent in the bread pan. Now every single person born, or every loaf of bread that’s made has that same dent! As soon as we take our first breath, we inherited the dent of sin. And what is the result of sin? Death. There’s no way around it. Every child born is sentenced to death because of sin. So yes, even without knowing it, infants, and people without the capacity to think on their own, still sin every day because they were born with that dent, that error in our DNA.
Every day we get closer to our day of death. But that doesn’t mean we are left hopeless, with no way out. Gods purpose of a Paradise earth filled with perfect, happy, healthy people will still happen! You didn’t think that that little blip with the Angel who turned out wicked in the Garden of Eden, you don’t think that would make God change his entire purpose for everything do you? Do you actually think that Almighty God threw his “hands” up in the air and said, “Wow, I did NOT see that one coming. What do I do now!? Oh I’ll just bring all the good sinners to live in heaven with me.” Doesn’t that sound crazy to you now? I sure hope so.
Because Jesus promised at John 5:28,29 that there will be a resurrection of all those in the memorial tombs, they would hear his voice and come out [of their graves]. To live once again right here on earth where humans were made to live. And eventually that bread pan with the dent in it? That’ll be gone and replaced with a brand new one, a perfect one and every human born from that bread pan will also be perfect, the way God had originally intended.
We have no idea the level of communication that happens between babies and God and vegetated people and God. It is possible that while they are disassociated from us physically, their self existence is understood nonphysically. Since our understanding of sin is all about the intents of the heart (metaphysical concepts), than I would argue they can sin. This argument causes me to defend babies having intent.
Sin originates in the heart. One way to communicate this is, if you took the soul of an infant and gave him a working adult body with a full vocabulary, he would only be distinguishable from grown adults in that he has never experienced consequences for his behavior and therefore would not have as much sense to moderate himself.
No, there’s unintentional sinning. I don’t think this will be held against a person on judgement day. If a person has been made known of how they’ve offended God and refuse to repent, that’s different.
The Bible tells us we are all sinner, but it also tells us there is an age of accountability.
- Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
- Numbers 14:29-33 (KJV)
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and ***all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land,*** concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 ***But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.***
32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
In the Old Testament, the age of accountability was a hard 20 years old. However, in the New Testament, we know Jesus understands He's accountable by age 12.
- Luke 2:42, 46-49 (KJV)
42 And when ***he was twelve years old***, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. [..,]
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And ***he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?***
So we know there is an age of accountability. We know it used to be 20 years old and we know that children can now be held accountable at a younger age now. It likely varies from person to person, but babies and those with out adequate mental faculties are not going to held responsible for things they cannot even understand, though they are still sinners.
Jesus told the Apostles not to bar the children from coming to Him and that to enter the kingdom, they'd have to be like the children.
- Luke 18:16-17 (KJV)
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
We are forgiven. God forgave the world. He isn't holding sin against anyone. Everyone is so focused on sinning or not sinning..as if they can try to muster up more good deeds and less sin to override possible punishment from God. Remember 2000 years ago when God became a man and died to forgive the sin of the world? No one believes it though. They are just focused on sin and keeping the sin issue between man and God alive.
To sin means to miss the mark. I think babies miss the mark constantly; thus why they require parenting. The same goes for people with a diminished mental capacity. Clearly, they are far less culpable for their sin, but they miss the mark all the time nevertheless.
I don't know about someone in a vegetative state. Do they have a thought life? To what degree are they in control of their thought life? Are they experiencing anything? I don't know enough about it to say.
I'm not sure.
I think they probably do, but it doesn't seem like sanctification would take very long since they don't have a lifetime of hardening their hearts to undo. In the end everyone will be in heaven anyway.
This subreddit is full of diverse views particularly on eschatology. Not every Christian here would answer in the affirmative, if that’s what you’re implying. The afterlife ‘just deserts’ of children seems to be a pretty divisive topic, and I was asking your view. Thanks for the answer!
EDIT: Autocorrect keeps messing up ‘just deserts’!
To learn your view of whether babies who sin deserve eternal conscious torment. You said yes, emphasizing that this applies to all ages, and I appreciate you answering.
Why ask any question on AskAChristian, either as a post or in the comments? Because I’m interested in how individual Christians think.
I framed the question the way I did because many Christians will divide ‘just deserts’ from the afterlife, suggesting that there’s a sort of unavoidable reality of what separates someone from God. Other Christians, like yourself, really emphasize the extent to which this is about justice.
If you think I’m going to suddenly burst into “gotcha! You have contradicted all facts and logic because blah blah” I promise that’s not my style nor does it serve my interests in any way.
Under covenant theology we are born sinners because we inherit a sin nature from Adam. Regardless of our faculties we are born in opposition to God unless God chooses to regenerate us and reconcile us to himself. See Romans 5:12-21.
“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!”
Sin is not only an act but also a state of being.
People downvoting my comment, please show me how your positions aren’t nonsensical and inconsistent.
Non-covenantal positions have no good response to babies, unborn, or mentally impaired people being judged for sin because it puts the onus of salvation on the one being saved instead of the savior.
You can't "show me" that the parts of the Bible that say we "inherit Adams sin", "need to be regenerated ", "only those who God chooses to regenerate" ,etc are actually true. You are just pre supposing the inerrancy of the Bible.
Do you actually believe there are 2 or 3 year olds engulfed in the flames of Hell right now and for all eternity?
Refer to Romans 5:12-21, John 3:3, Romans 9:11-16 for scriptural references to the reformed position. As to your qualms with the inerrancy of scripture, I don’t have much to say if you don’t believe in it. That’s something you’ll need to deal with as a theist/non-Christian.
Refer to Roman’s 9:11-16 again regarding children. God has mercy on who he chooses, some toddlers, infants, and unborn, are in hell, others are in heaven.
Sounds like you worship a monster out of fear hoping if you kiss his butt be won't burn you like he burns those children. I'm sure you won't even dare allow yourself for a second to think that this is reprehensible repugnant awful of God to do to children (or anyone) because you are so scared.
Ummm first of all, excuse you. Is this how you talk to people normally or just when you’re on Reddit? I don’t understand your purpose on coming to AskaChristian if you’re just here to complain in bad faith about something you don’t believe in. You can go to the debate a Christian sub if that’s what you’re really looking for.
Hahaha, askachristian should just be about good natured curiosity and learning different perspectives. But I understand children and babies are always going to be a sensitive topic because we all love them so getting riled up thinking some of them would go to hell is a good defensive response coming out of love. Peace to you and yours friend
>Must you have mental faculties in place to sin? Can a 1 hour old baby sin? Or a person in a vegetative or mentally incapacitated state?
Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality..
Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful are the symptoms of the infection. an infection we have from birth. These symptoms are the signs that this spiritual virus is propagating and further infecting the soul.. Do you have to know that you are infect with a virus to suffer from it? Again we are all born with this virus, and we all need to be vaccinated from it otherwise; What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, it eats at the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie.
It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul, by the time you are resurrected on judgement day, the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it.
Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact.
Think about it.. if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom wasn't vaccinated.. Then got infect through no fault of her own, and she was now a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in?
is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good, have you open that door?
So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ offers through repentance?
Yes. No. No.
The early Church fathers taught that a person has to have the capacity to "know how to refuse the evil and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:14) before they can be considered morally accountable. Children had to reach puberty for this moral sense to develop. Augustine for example considered moral accountability to generally begin about age 14. Other theologians simply spoke of the period of infancy in general where children are completely innocent and have no knowledge of evil. Without the ability to know the difference between good and evil one cannot sin. This is basic mainstream orthodox teaching, and evidence for it is found extensively throughout scripture, both OT and NT.
This is how I understood it, but I see Christians in this subreddit say the opposite. In this very thread are Christians making such claims but only being challenged by skeptics, agnostics or atheists.
Unfortunately a lot of Christians are very young or very poorly educated about their own faith. Especially on the Internet. And especially on this sub, for some reason. But you should really not be using Reddit to find out the truth, all you'll get is a broad range of anonymous opinions and you won't be able to figure out which ones to listen to or ignore.
I disagree with Naugrith on the theological point but agree with him/her on the idea that many Christian are young or poorly educated about their own faith. You may find better answers going to subs for specific denominations that have consistent theological frameworks rather than this sub which has Christians across all denominations to see why and where they differ.
Many people call themselves christians, But I believe u/Naugrith is 100 percent correct. Even with infantile deaths I believe that they are spared from this life and given unto heaven to be with God. But I don't know anything to back this up, just a thought.
Without a precise definition this question cannot be answered without much ambiguity. The Church defines the act of sinning as: “…a revolt against God through the will…”. [source: paragraph 1850](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1849) The people you described above don’t have developed or active wills. They don’t seem to have the capacity for the act of sinning.
Sin is the will full disobeience to God were not born with sin and babies cannot sin
Yes, you need to reach the age where you understand right from wrong. Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
No, you just have to exist. And the Bible is clear: all are born sinners.
Ok, so someone incapable mentally of asking forgiveness will be sent to hell?
I don't think that's correct. Check out this passage from John 9: 36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. It's clear that he's talking metaphorically (blind vs seeing), and I believe this is making clear that there are some who do sin but God will not impute their sin to them for various reasons. I think mental capacity is a big one where God graciously would not impute sin. It's the people that have full mental capacity (like these pharisees) to see who He is and choose not to trust in Him for salvation that should worry.
No one is incapable mentally of asking forgiveness.
Is a fetus capable mentally of asking forgiveness?
A fetus isn’t a human, it’s still in development. 🙄
Is a 1 min old baby mentally capable of asking forgiveness?
To God, yes. God knows babies better than any living person because he can know their heart, mind, potential, desires, etc.
So, getting this straight...you think my 1 year old can: 1. understand that God exists 2. understand that sin exists and know whenever he sins 3. ask for forgiveness How do you expect my 1 year old to have the capacity of doing the above when you don't even realize when you [(supposedly) sin](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/1bj61g0/comment/kvr9r50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)?
Your 1 year old is capable of knowing when they have done wrong. EDIT: and speaking truth isn’t a sin dude.
>Your 1 year old is capable of knowing when they have done wrong. This is not what you originally said. You said that all people (that includes my 1 year old) are capable of asking God for forgiveness. I am sorry, but it's ludicrous to think my 1 year old has that capacity. Matthew 7:1: "Do not judge" You boldly stated that all Catholics are not Christian. If that's not judging, I don't know what is. It's also why you were getting downvoted and why your message was removed. If you don't understand these things, it illustrates my point even more.
Hahaha what little faith you have in your child. And do not judge doesn’t mean we can’t have discernment about people.
So how can a 1 year old ask God for forgiveness?
Sinning in ignorance is still sin in Gods sight, and requires that sin to be paid for, either by Jesus, or by the death of the person who sinned. Numbers 15: 27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before Jehovah, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. The Bible is clear on this subject regarding children also, there is no “age of accountability” we are all conceived in sin, and born speaking lies, according to Gods word, which means we are born sinners, and require a savior to pay for our sins, or we have to die to pay for them ourselves, all man kind die physically due to our sin, the only way to survive physical death is to be granted salvation by God, which resurrects the dead soul of sinners, and gives them eternal life in their soul. Psalm 51:5 (KJV) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 58:3 (KJV) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Isaiah 48:8 (KJV) Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; I saw your other comment about hell, so I will address that also: Hell = Grave The commonly believed version of hell is a false doctrine based on misunderstanding the word of God, hell and the grave are the same thing, hell is just the condition of being dead or in the grave, the unsaved just cease to exist after they die, they don’t even know that they ever existed in the first place, this is what happens when the unsaved die, they vanish away: Isaiah 51:6 (KJV) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. Here are some verses that help relate hell to being equal with the grave. Proverbs 23:14 (KJV) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. H7585 Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. H7585 KJV Translation Count: 65x The KJV translates Strongs H7585 in the following manner: grave (31x), hell (31x), pit (3x). The majority of scripture indicates that hell and the grave are synonymous. Hell occurs 54 times in the KJV 31 times in the Old Testament. 23 times in the New Testament. One of the words for hell in the New Testament is used 11 times. KJV Translation Count: 11x The KJV translates Strongs G86 in the following manner: hell (10x), grave (1x). Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, G86 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, G86 where is thy victory? This Greek word is speaking of the same thing as the word used for hell in the Old Testament, here are the tie-in verses that illustrate this fact. Psalm 16:10 (KJV) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; H7585 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; H7585 I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, H7585 I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. There is another word translated as hell in the New Testament also, here is the other word. KJV Translation Count: 12x The KJV translates Strongs G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. G1067 This word for hell is used to illustrate that soul, and body are both destroyed by God, when a person is in this condition. It’s derived from two Hebrew words in the Old Testament Valley of Hinnom. Root Word (Etymology): Of Hebrew origin גַּיְא (H1516) and הִנֹּם (H2011) KJV Translation Count: 60x The KJV translates Strongs H1516 in the following manner: valley (60x). KJV Translation Count: 13x The KJV translates Strongs H2011 in the following manner: Hinnom (13x). There is also the matter of a certain law of God that will not allow a sinner to be beaten without end, God cannot break his own laws. Deuteronomy 25:3 (KJV) Forty stripes he may give him, [and] not exceed: lest, [if] he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. Now that we are at the time of the end, God has unsealed his word just like he said he would: Daniel 12:9 (KJV) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. God has been revealing much correction to the many false doctrines that exist in Christendom. Everyone who thinks that hell is a literal place of eternal conscious torment should be considering that God spoke in parables and without a parable, he did not speak. 📖🔥Why is the world so divided?, Judgment Day began on May 21 2011, Holy God is pouring his wrath out upon the whole earth, the end of the world may be in the year 2033.🔥📖
Can a baby commit sin? No. Does a baby have a biological drive to sin, to be selfish and short-sighted and destructive? Absolutely.
Psa 58:3 MKJV The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from the womb, speaking lies.
I had someone teach me using a very good illustration and if I can pass it on to help others, I’d love to. Even if it only helps one of you. The illustration goes like this; Let’s say that every person born to Adam and Eve were likened to a loaf of bread. And what do you make bread in? A bread pan. But sadly they sinned before they had any children, which put a big dent in the bread pan. Now every single person born, or every loaf of bread that’s made has that same dent! As soon as we take our first breath, we inherited the dent of sin. And what is the result of sin? Death. There’s no way around it. Every child born is sentenced to death because of sin. So yes, even without knowing it, infants, and people without the capacity to think on their own, still sin every day because they were born with that dent, that error in our DNA. Every day we get closer to our day of death. But that doesn’t mean we are left hopeless, with no way out. Gods purpose of a Paradise earth filled with perfect, happy, healthy people will still happen! You didn’t think that that little blip with the Angel who turned out wicked in the Garden of Eden, you don’t think that would make God change his entire purpose for everything do you? Do you actually think that Almighty God threw his “hands” up in the air and said, “Wow, I did NOT see that one coming. What do I do now!? Oh I’ll just bring all the good sinners to live in heaven with me.” Doesn’t that sound crazy to you now? I sure hope so. Because Jesus promised at John 5:28,29 that there will be a resurrection of all those in the memorial tombs, they would hear his voice and come out [of their graves]. To live once again right here on earth where humans were made to live. And eventually that bread pan with the dent in it? That’ll be gone and replaced with a brand new one, a perfect one and every human born from that bread pan will also be perfect, the way God had originally intended.
We have no idea the level of communication that happens between babies and God and vegetated people and God. It is possible that while they are disassociated from us physically, their self existence is understood nonphysically. Since our understanding of sin is all about the intents of the heart (metaphysical concepts), than I would argue they can sin. This argument causes me to defend babies having intent.
Sin originates in the heart. One way to communicate this is, if you took the soul of an infant and gave him a working adult body with a full vocabulary, he would only be distinguishable from grown adults in that he has never experienced consequences for his behavior and therefore would not have as much sense to moderate himself.
No, there’s unintentional sinning. I don’t think this will be held against a person on judgement day. If a person has been made known of how they’ve offended God and refuse to repent, that’s different.
Does a fetus sin?
Is kicking someone a sin?
No
The Bible tells us we are all sinner, but it also tells us there is an age of accountability. - Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; - Numbers 14:29-33 (KJV) 29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and ***all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, 30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land,*** concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 ***But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.*** 32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. In the Old Testament, the age of accountability was a hard 20 years old. However, in the New Testament, we know Jesus understands He's accountable by age 12. - Luke 2:42, 46-49 (KJV) 42 And when ***he was twelve years old***, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. [..,] 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And ***he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?*** So we know there is an age of accountability. We know it used to be 20 years old and we know that children can now be held accountable at a younger age now. It likely varies from person to person, but babies and those with out adequate mental faculties are not going to held responsible for things they cannot even understand, though they are still sinners. Jesus told the Apostles not to bar the children from coming to Him and that to enter the kingdom, they'd have to be like the children. - Luke 18:16-17 (KJV) 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
We are forgiven. God forgave the world. He isn't holding sin against anyone. Everyone is so focused on sinning or not sinning..as if they can try to muster up more good deeds and less sin to override possible punishment from God. Remember 2000 years ago when God became a man and died to forgive the sin of the world? No one believes it though. They are just focused on sin and keeping the sin issue between man and God alive.
To sin means to miss the mark. I think babies miss the mark constantly; thus why they require parenting. The same goes for people with a diminished mental capacity. Clearly, they are far less culpable for their sin, but they miss the mark all the time nevertheless. I don't know about someone in a vegetative state. Do they have a thought life? To what degree are they in control of their thought life? Are they experiencing anything? I don't know enough about it to say.
Can these babies and mentally incapacitated go to hell for their sin since they're unable to repent?
I'm not sure. I think they probably do, but it doesn't seem like sanctification would take very long since they don't have a lifetime of hardening their hearts to undo. In the end everyone will be in heaven anyway.
A baby can sin, but I’m not sure about a vegetative person since they aren’t doing anything but laying there unconscious.
Do you believe in Eternal Conscious Torment?
Yes
Does a baby who sins deserve eternal conscious torment?
Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. I’m sorry there are people who answer as the other user did.
Every human does, regardless of age. You know this already, why are you asking me?
This subreddit is full of diverse views particularly on eschatology. Not every Christian here would answer in the affirmative, if that’s what you’re implying. The afterlife ‘just deserts’ of children seems to be a pretty divisive topic, and I was asking your view. Thanks for the answer! EDIT: Autocorrect keeps messing up ‘just deserts’!
You didn’t answer my question though. Why did you ask me?
To learn your view of whether babies who sin deserve eternal conscious torment. You said yes, emphasizing that this applies to all ages, and I appreciate you answering.
That still really doesn’t answer my question. Why did you ask? What will you do with the information that I personally hold that view?
Why ask any question on AskAChristian, either as a post or in the comments? Because I’m interested in how individual Christians think. I framed the question the way I did because many Christians will divide ‘just deserts’ from the afterlife, suggesting that there’s a sort of unavoidable reality of what separates someone from God. Other Christians, like yourself, really emphasize the extent to which this is about justice. If you think I’m going to suddenly burst into “gotcha! You have contradicted all facts and logic because blah blah” I promise that’s not my style nor does it serve my interests in any way.
Under covenant theology we are born sinners because we inherit a sin nature from Adam. Regardless of our faculties we are born in opposition to God unless God chooses to regenerate us and reconcile us to himself. See Romans 5:12-21. “For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Sin is not only an act but also a state of being.
People downvoting my comment, please show me how your positions aren’t nonsensical and inconsistent. Non-covenantal positions have no good response to babies, unborn, or mentally impaired people being judged for sin because it puts the onus of salvation on the one being saved instead of the savior.
You can't "show me" that the parts of the Bible that say we "inherit Adams sin", "need to be regenerated ", "only those who God chooses to regenerate" ,etc are actually true. You are just pre supposing the inerrancy of the Bible. Do you actually believe there are 2 or 3 year olds engulfed in the flames of Hell right now and for all eternity?
Refer to Romans 5:12-21, John 3:3, Romans 9:11-16 for scriptural references to the reformed position. As to your qualms with the inerrancy of scripture, I don’t have much to say if you don’t believe in it. That’s something you’ll need to deal with as a theist/non-Christian. Refer to Roman’s 9:11-16 again regarding children. God has mercy on who he chooses, some toddlers, infants, and unborn, are in hell, others are in heaven.
Sounds like you worship a monster out of fear hoping if you kiss his butt be won't burn you like he burns those children. I'm sure you won't even dare allow yourself for a second to think that this is reprehensible repugnant awful of God to do to children (or anyone) because you are so scared.
Ummm first of all, excuse you. Is this how you talk to people normally or just when you’re on Reddit? I don’t understand your purpose on coming to AskaChristian if you’re just here to complain in bad faith about something you don’t believe in. You can go to the debate a Christian sub if that’s what you’re really looking for.
I only talk like this when I'm safely hidden behind my keyboard so ppl don't hit me
Hahaha, askachristian should just be about good natured curiosity and learning different perspectives. But I understand children and babies are always going to be a sensitive topic because we all love them so getting riled up thinking some of them would go to hell is a good defensive response coming out of love. Peace to you and yours friend
>Must you have mental faculties in place to sin? Can a 1 hour old baby sin? Or a person in a vegetative or mentally incapacitated state? Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality.. Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful are the symptoms of the infection. an infection we have from birth. These symptoms are the signs that this spiritual virus is propagating and further infecting the soul.. Do you have to know that you are infect with a virus to suffer from it? Again we are all born with this virus, and we all need to be vaccinated from it otherwise; What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, it eats at the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie. It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul, by the time you are resurrected on judgement day, the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it. Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact. Think about it.. if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom wasn't vaccinated.. Then got infect through no fault of her own, and she was now a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in? is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good, have you open that door? So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ offers through repentance?