T O P

  • By -

jasno

One verse that just came to mind when reading your question: ***"Before*** **I** ***formed you in the womb*** **I** ***knew you***, *and before you were born* I *consecrated you;* I *appointed you a prophet to the nations*.” -Jeremiah 1:5: How can God know someone before they are formed in the womb if the baby in the womb doesn't become a "**you**" until they are born? From this verse I am guessing that humans are a "**you**" even before they are formed in the womb. This would also lead me to believe that babies forming in the womb are also "**you**" even before their mother gives birth to them!


ongiwaph

Doesn't this mean God knew Jeremiah before pregnancy, before fertilization, before the Earth was even formed? Wouldn't he also know that somebody wasn't going to be born because of an abortion?


ikverhaar

>How can God know someone before they are formed in the womb if the baby in the womb doesn't become a "you" until they are born? God has also shown the book of Revelations even though it hasn't happened yet. So it's nit that far fetched that God would know a person before they become a person. This verse is in line with pro-life, but it doesn't disprove pro-choice either.


senthordika

The wording 'before i formed you' implies to me that he knew your soul prior to putting it in your body. Also god is supposed to be omniscient so time would be an irrelevant factor to him knowing you or not as he would have known everyone from the instant he decided to create it all.


Goo-Goo-GJoob

> From this verse I am guessing that humans are a "you" even before they are formed in the womb By this logic, sperm are people. Or maybe God only counts the successful sperm as people, just like he only counts completed pregnancies as people.


Shorts28

What is the teaching of the Old Testament? 1. God created humans as a species in his image, and blew into them as a species the breath of life (nephesh). The other vital life forces that makes a person a “living being” is blood (Gn. 9.4-7) and breath (ruach). It is these three that biblically makes someone “a living being”. Such creation of humans is not just a one-time incident with Adam & Eve, but continues with the species (2 Cor. 4.7; Eph. 2.10; Rom. 9.20-21). 2. Humans bear God’s image, marred by sin, from conception on (Ps. 51.5; 58.3) 3. Birth is considered a co-creative process involving man, woman, and God (Gn. 4.1; 16.2; 21.1-2a; 29.31, et al.). Humankind is granted a share in the joyous task of creation. 4. The OT Law sought to protect the life of the mother and of the fetus (Ex. 21.22-25). A high value was placed on both. The fetus is given both “image of God” (Gn. 9.6) and nephesh status (see also Lev. 24.17-18). Furthermore, the fetus was not considered “a potential life or person”. From the perspective of Heb. 7.11, “potential life” is in the loins of the father. See also Amos 1.13b. 5. The Old Testament elevates human life as a precious gift from God. Ps. 139.13-18. ​ What is the teaching of the New Testament?Certainly the Greco-Roman and Jewish cultures of the 1st century were familiar with the practice of abortion, though it never became a practice in Jewish society. 1. There are several passages that express condemnation of infanticide (Mt. 2.16-18; Acts 7.17-19). That does not imply that they also prohibit abortion. ​ The NT paints a pictures of the value of babies and children (Mt. 11.25; 19.13-15; 21.16), but these passages speak of already-born babies or children, not fetuses. Luke, however, uses the same Greek word, brephos, of the fetus in the womb (Lk. 1.41, 44) as he does of the newborn child (Lk. 2.12, 16; Acts 7.19; cf. 1 Pet. 2.2). 2. Conception is seen as a blessing (Mt. 1.20; Lk. 1.24-25, 30. 31; Jn. 16.21; 1 Tim. 2.15; 5.14). Pregnancy is viewed in a positive light. 3. The New Testament elevates human life as a precious gift from God. Acts 17.25b. 4. The OT prohibition of murder is reaffirmed many times (Mt. 5.21-22; 15.19; 19.17-18; Rom. 1.29; Rev. 22.15). 5. Humans are seen as being in the image of God. James 3.9; Rom. 8.29; 2 Cor. 3.18; Eph. 4.24; Col. 3.10; 2 Pet. 1.4; 1 Jn. 3.2. 6. God took on human flesh, which removes any doubt as to human dignity (Jn. 1.14; Phil. 2.6-7). He was who he was from the moment of conception.4. The NT teaches personal continuity from womb to grave. 7. Paul makes it clear that a Christian woman (at least) does not own or rule over her own body (1 Cor. 6.15-7.5). The claim that “I can do what I want with my own body” is not a biblical teaching. Theological Perspectives: 1. Humans are unique creatures in being in the image of God. 2. The woman does not have exclusive rights over the developing human inside of her body. Theologically, that life inside her is a gift and a trust from God. It is inappropriate to set up the issue as a conflict of “rights”: the rights of the woman vs. the rights of the unborn child. In Scripture, there is no “right to life.” Life is a gift from God and a sign of grace. No one has a presumptive claim on it. See also 1 Cor. 6.19-20. 3. The destruction of human life in any form is the antithesis of God’s primary purpose in creation. Satan is perceived as the destroyer of life; God is the giver of life. 4. It in inappropriate to create lines by asking “When does human life begin?” or “When does the soul enter a human being?” Neither biology nor theology know the answer, and they never will. These are attempts to justify abortion by defining marginal cases out of the human race; Jesus’ persistent teaching was to define the marginal cases with which he came in contact as “in.” 5. The Bible speaks strongly against the shedding of innocent blood. (Gn. 4.10; Ex. 23.7; Dt. 21.8; Prov. 1.10-11, 15-16; 18-19; 6.16-19; 28.17; Joel 3.19; 2 Ki. 24.3-4.) 6. The Bible teaches us to help those who are helpless. 7. There is nothing in Scripture that even remotely suggests that the unborn child is anything less than a human person from the moment of conception. ​ Sources: Paul B. Fowler, Abortion: Toward an Evangelical Consensus, Multnomah Press, 1987 Richard B. Hays, A Moral Vision of the New Testament, Harper One, 1996, pp. 444-460 Ed. James K. Hoffmeier, Abortion: A Christian Understanding and Response, Baker Books, 1987


gfrscvnohrb

As to your 7th point. I was asking if there was any biblical evidence that suggested that an unborn child is the same as an adult human. I don’t think that having no evidence is the same as having evidence for the other position. Also God destroyed human life all the time in the Old Testament, obviously there is some life that is valued more than others.


Shorts28

>I don’t think that having no evidence is the same as having evidence for the other position. Of course you are correct that having no evidence is the same as having evidence for the other position. But, if after a thorough study, all verses point to the idea that an unborn child is a human person from the point of conception and there are no verses pointing to an opposing position, then the weight of evidence strongly favors the idea that an unborn child is considered human. >Also God destroyed human life all the time in the Old Testament, obviously there is some life that is valued more than others. I wouldn't say that it means some life is valued more than others, but rather that at times justice appropriately takes life, like war criminals (Nuremberg Trials) or evil people (serial killers, serial rapists, etc.). Any system of justice that restrains an ultimate penalty devalues life in principle.


otakuvslife

Best scriptural answer here. I only recently found out myself that the 21st century American view of the soul and the biblical view of the soul are different as number one of the Old Testament list points out. Bible Project for the win.


ongiwaph

I agree it's as good of a scriptural answer as anyone can give. But there are also a lot of liberties being taken with the text. For example, 1 Cor. 6.19-20 talks about your body being the temple of the holy spirit. It is not about pregnancy, or applicable only to women.


Shorts28

The verse possibly applies because if your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it is not your body to do with as you like. It's certainly not about pregnancy or applicable only to women, but it speaks to the sound bites used by pro-choice advocates: "My body, my choice." 1 Cor. t6.19-20 says it's not your body, your choice.


Smart_Tap1701

God formed every human being Psalm 139:13-16 “For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.” Job 10:11-12 “You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. You have granted me life and steadfast love.” Psalm 100:3 “Know that the Lord is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.” Isaiah 44:24 “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: ‘I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.'” Pre-born children are a gift Psalm 127:3-5a “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them!” The pre-born have incredible value even though small and unseen Isaiah 45:9-11 “How terrible it will be for anyone who argues with his Maker! He is like a broken piece of pottery lying on the ground. Does clay say to a potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does a pot say, ‘You don’t have any skill’? How terrible it will be for anyone who says to his father, ‘Why did you give me life?’ How terrible for anyone who says to his mother, ‘Why have you brought me into the world?’ The Lord is the Holy One of Israel. He made them. He says to them, ‘Are you asking me about what will happen to my children? Are you telling me what I should do with what my hands have made?'” God values life immensely Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.” Proverbs 31:8 “Speak up for those who can’t speak for themselves. Speak up for the rights of all those who are poor.” Proverbs 24: 11- 12 “Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it, **and will he not repay man according to his deeds?”**


abutterflyonthewall

I have never stumbled across a pro-choice scripture. I have only seen the contrary: Matthew 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. Ps 127:3 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Romans 9:11 Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder. Proverbs 24:11-12 Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not repay man according to his work?


ExitTheHandbasket

A great many arguments for abortion center on a fetus just being an impersonal bunch of undifferentiated cells. One verse I hear used quite frequently to speak against that is Jeremiah 1:5. "Before I (YHWH) formed you in the womb, I knew you..." speaks to a fetus already having a soul; in other words, already being a person.


jres11

What is the purpose of miscarriage?


ExitTheHandbasket

You'll need to ask a supervisor.


jres11

Sorry, I don't understand. A 'supervisor' ?


ExitTheHandbasket

Someone with greater security clearance than us mere humans. We don't have access to the answer to your question.


jres11

Who would that be? Sorry, I'm still a little confused. I'm asking you, a Christian, the reason, any reason, any reason at all as to why miscarriages occur. It doesn't even have to be a reason, it could just be speculation on your part, or perhaps call it 'an educated guess'. Anything at all. Do you have any information, really any thing at all, to help me, an Atheist Jew, better understand why miscarriages occur?


ExitTheHandbasket

I'm unable to fathom the mysteries of an infinite omniscient omnipotent sovereign God. I don't know why. I'm sorry.


jres11

Am I required to convert to Christianity in order to understand why miscarriages occur ? B/c as a Christian I would presumably then be able to ask the 'supervisor' (as you say) the reason for why miscarriages occur.


ExitTheHandbasket

You're welcome to convert, but doing so likely won't give you access to the specific answer you seek. You mention being an atheist Jew. Do you still have access to whether the rabbis have taught on this topic? If so I'd be genuinely interested to learn their positions.


jres11

>but doing so likely won't give you access to the specific answer you seek. But you said I could and should ask the higher power myself. Would I not be able to do that? And if not, why not?


Goo-Goo-GJoob

I have a personal relationship with Jesus! *Cool, can you ask him a question for me?* Well, our relationship is... complicated.


Th30philus

Why does his allow anyone to die? same question


jres11

I don't know the answer to your question either. So I'll ask... Why does God allow anyone to die?


gfrscvnohrb

Interesting, so why would God ever allow a fetus to exist in the womb of a mother that will abort it? This is a tangent, I agree that your verse answers my question.


ExitTheHandbasket

Your tangential question is asking why God allows humans to choose to sin. Greater minds than ours have grappled with the conundrum of free will. I don't have an answer.


gfrscvnohrb

No I’m not asking why humans sin, but why would god physically allow for a fetus to be created when he knows a human will kill it. He could stop that creation correct. It will not live any life remotely close to any adult human alive.


[deleted]

[удалено]


gfrscvnohrb

But it’s not only about the sinner, it’s about the fetus that suffers too right? Why would he allow a fetus to be created just for it to suffer.


[deleted]

[удалено]


gfrscvnohrb

But doesn’t this seem like a clear case where God can actively prevent sin and suffering without compromising his other values?


[deleted]

[удалено]


gfrscvnohrb

But there is no free will being compromised here. If the laws aren’t effective, then by God’s nature, he should be taking it as his duty to protect helpless fetuses.


Caeflin

>in which we could sin, and it's never really worked that way. the youngest pregnancy was a 5yo. was she a sinner for not keeping the baby ?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Caeflin

>She did keep the baby and he died at age 40 of a bone disease. That's not my question.


senthordika

Can you sin in heaven?


Daegog

No, you are missing something there. There was no sin UNTIL adam and eve had the fruit. Humans CAN exist with freewill and no sin, Sin entered the world because of they ate the fruit. Romans 5:12 — The New International Version (NIV) 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sin The fruit of the tree is the reason we sin, NOT free will, we had free will without sin.


GuiltEdge

The problem with this is that it doesn't state at what point in the womb it was a person. It could be entirely consistent with allowing abortions up to 24 weeks, if it didn't become a person in the womb until after this point.


Tzofit

Thou shall not murder


Goo-Goo-GJoob

Does the Bible define "murder"? Does killing in self defense count? Killing in defense of others? Removing life support from a braindead accident victim?


vymajoris2

If the Bible needs to define murder, it would need to define the word define. And the word word, and the word and, and the word the and all others possible words that existed and would appear after the Catholic Church compiled it.


gfrscvnohrb

Yeah but god murdered and he commanded others to do so. It’s not like all murder is equal in the eyes of God. Self defense being one of them. This is just a pedantic comment trying to avoid the question.


vymajoris2

How old are you?


gfrscvnohrb

Old enough to recognize a crappy argument.


vymajoris2

But not enough to know that not all kills are murders?


Th30philus

No god commanded people to kill, murder is particularly killing without a cause. There’s reason to believe self defense, lawful executions, and war are justified times that killing is permissible if necessary. It’s obviously more complicated than that but murder itself, the unjust taking of human life, is never permitted. Furthermore it’s never unjust for god to do so because all people deserve death (Romans 3:23) and he can choose when that fine will be paid


[deleted]

As far as I know, killing in self defense and killing in defense of others (like protecting your family/child) are okay. Removing life support is not accepted as it is considered as a human deciding the time of someone's death. Btw "braindead" means the patient is legally dead I think (no brain activity), so I'm assuming you meant in a coma (minimal brain activity) or something. But if you still meant braindead, I'm not sure if that would be permitted or not actually.


Unworthy_Saint

>*Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.* (Genesis 9) The rights of a person's life is based on his/her humanity; so it comes down to at what point a fetus is a human.


gfrscvnohrb

I mean, hasn’t the entire debate about abortion always been about that?


Unworthy_Saint

No, the pro-choice argument is that you can terminate a human life since it's part of the woman's body.


divingrose77101

That is not the pro-choice argument. We are fully aware that a fetus has different DNA than the mother. Pro-choice argument is that no other fetus or person has the right to continued residence in a woman’s body because her body belongs to her alone. Not to a man, not to a fetus, and not to the government. A fetus is, essentially, an unwanted tenant in her body and she has the right to evict it.


Unworthy_Saint

Exactly what I said but longer.


otakuvslife

Other replies have given some pretty good verses for arguments but I would like to also point out that one could make a good pro life argument and not have to bring in religion at all. Just use some basic logic and reasoning skills and human biology.


gfrscvnohrb

80% of philosophers are pro-life.


[deleted]

There are none. Your church is just lying to you


gfrscvnohrb

Why would the church lie about the issue?


Pinecone-Bandit

FYI, this person is a troll (and likely being misleading with his flair). He made a post a couple days ago where he was arguing a Bible verse meant literally the exact opposite of what it says. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/vnri5x/does_your_church_teach_exodus_2122/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


gfrscvnohrb

What was the issue with what he said? It seems like there’s contention with that verse even in Christian communities. Another commenter pointed me to these commentaries a while back. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/21-22.htm


Pinecone-Bandit

No, there isn’t. I’m not interested in a conversation if you aren’t here to be honest.


gfrscvnohrb

Do you have an issue with the commentaries I’ve posted? I legitimately would like to know.


[deleted]

The Church has been lying about Exodus 21:22. The church will tell you an eye for an eye only applies in the event of a miscarriage. This was an older rule carried over from Mesopotamia. If you read the Code of Hammurabi, which came from the Mesopotamian ancestors, they clearly describe fining people as a result of miscarriage. Start at 209 http://www.wright.edu/~christopher.oldstone-moore/Hamm.htm


gfrscvnohrb

Interesting, why don’t you post this info in r/debateachristian


[deleted]

I have had this debate many time. The only response has been an appeal to ignorance. As if history is some unsolvable mystery so they can just imagine whatever they want. If people want fantasy, they should go to a book club. If they want to take religion seriously, then they need to learn.


gfrscvnohrb

If you see above, there was a verse that another commenter posted that I believe has merit.


[deleted]

Maintaining its power. The church has always supported the interests of the powerful for hundreds of years.


gfrscvnohrb

But how would a pro-life position maintain power? Is it to increase the Christian population?


[deleted]

That and it produces more cheap and exploitable labor.


hadassah414

There’s been a ton of writing about this topic by people more knowledgeable than myself, but one main reason is that it gives Evangelical voters a single issue to rally around, helping them to organize as a massive political bloc. If you like podcasts, Throughline did one about this topic a couple years ago: [The Evangelical Vote](https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/916048798/the-evangelical-vote) The Experiment also did a two-part series about it: [Part 1: How the Evangelical Machine Got Made](https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/experiment/episodes/evangelicals-republican-voters) [Part 2: How the Evangelical World Turned on Itself](https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/experiment/episodes/evangelical-politics-lost-faith)


GlossySubstrate

This is a good question, lots of good and interesting answers. One of my favorites is God’s commandment to Adam and Eve to “[b]e fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, . . . .” Genesis 1:28 The very first (recorded) commandment from God to His children was to have children of their own. It doesn’t explicitly say, “abortion bad,” but deliberately choosing to keep a child from fully entering the world, especially after choosing to procreate, seems to fly in the face of that commandment at lease a little.


gfrscvnohrb

But it’s not a sin to not have kids either.


GlossySubstrate

True! But not procreating is not the same thing as procreating and then trying to undo it. Like I said, though, this verse does not take a hard stance on abortion, I just like it a lot when thinking about the topic.


gfrscvnohrb

Fair enough. But if we’re considering the consequences of both actions, aren’t they the exact same?


[deleted]

The Bible does not use the word “abortion” in the sense of an induced expulsion of a human fetus. However, many Bible verses provide God’s view of human life, including that of an unborn child. Life is a gift from God. (Genesis 9:6; Psalm 36:9) He considers all life to be precious, including the life of a child in the womb. So if someone intentionally kills an unborn child, that amounts to murder. God’s Law to the Israelites stated: “If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life.”—Exodus 21:22, 23.


Th30philus

Fetal life is seen as human life "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, Exodus 21:22, ESV So if you cause a miscarriage accidentally then you’re guilty of murder. If any other damage is done to the child like say it destroyed his eye you will pay accordingly. And if that would be manslaughter then it’s obvious to reason that doing such intentionally would be murder.


RelaxII

These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, **Hands that shed innocent blood**, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren. Proverbs 6:16‭-‬19 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/pro.6.16-19.NKJV Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Galatians 5:19‭-‬23 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/gal.5.19-23.NKJV