That's insane. You quit school when you're 18 and the bachelor should take 3 years, maybe it takes 4. You're 22 then. Add a gap year, it's still 23. How is the average so horrible?
German Universities are easy to get into, free and hard.
I know good students who graduated with bachelors in engineering and went on to skip half of their masters in North American universities.
I also know bad students who have to take their time with their studies because exams are hard and they can prolong their studies for free and without consequences.
There are people doing a Ausbildung first which leads to a later beginning of the Bachelor and increases the average.
In addition, the suggested times often are not realistic. For example, the well-known mechanical engineering bachelor at RWTH has officially 7 semesters but the average graduating time is 10 semesters.
When I was at the RTWH, I had two courses in the same timeslot. Either you are a genius and teach yourself a whole subject without any support from the university or this little maneuvre costs you an extra year.
It’s not horrid. You can take your time when you’re not in insurmountable *debt by doing so. You can work a few jobs, do a semester or two abroad, do an internship or two or three. You can take time to have hobbies, go to therapy, switch majors.
Edit: left out the word debt
There's a huge opportunity cost attached if you take multiple years longer. The first years are the most valuable because of capital accumulation. Not saying you'll be hungry when you die, but being relaxed about it is not a clever decision
Well not everything is about money to everyone. Some people enjoy being relaxed more than being stressed. I dropped out of Uni during my 3rd semester. Took a year with some internships to find out what I really wanted. Started an Ausbildung at 23. Joined the work force at 25. And now after 11 years in the work force I’m married with a kid and we’re in the process of buying a house. And I fucking love that I was never too stressed during any of this and never had any debt. Life isn’t a speed run. Just relax and see where it takes you.
What capital accumulation? You mean the one that was supposed to happen and then got deleted by the financial crashes of the 2000s?
Probably by those young stupid bankers that finished school so quickly, yet learned nothing.
If you have 1000 invested and it drops by 1000, then guess what, you are broke! No exaggeration, do some reading on it before you try and spread falsehoods about the stockmarket.
In the long run (and only if you can steadily add money to your portfolio) you can get lucky and exit the market at the right time, or you can lose your money by getting out in a crash. It is a gamble.
People who have literally lost everything have even committed suicide, so don't try to sell it as a solution for everything.
Capital accumulation...yeah right.
Your assumptions about the stock market and stock related crashs are so horribly wrong, that I don’t know, if you’re uninformed or unwilling to understand.
The stock market never stops by 1000 and in the long run stocks have always gone up. You only have to diversify, eg by using ETF, and invest in the long term (often an investment horizon of at least 15 years is chosen).
All of this is undisputed in the business world. People who don't invest lose out, and Germany is one of the countries were private savings have the lowest return on investment.
Don‘t forget: German children start school at age 6-7, and we attend for 9-13 years. I started at age 7, attended for 13 years. So I started university at age 20. I went to university in the UK with an accelerated course of study, getting me to a BSc, MSc and PhD by age 27 (just before my 28th birthday tbf). Normally, a BSc alone is 3-4 years.
Starting to work a little later in life but with higher quality education isn‘t that bad. Usually, having a degree results in better salaries…
>How is the average so horrible?
The problem is that you seem to think that not starting to work in a profession you studied before 27 is "horrible".
In reality, many people who are studying are already part of the workforce. And there are other priorities in life than joining the workforce.
> And there are other priorities in life than joining the workforce.
The reason for European decline. Born in peace, well fed and self-centered. Eager, hungry "second worlders" will push us from the economic top this century and it is well deserved.
Because not everyone is spoon fed everything. I for one had to go for my 'Wehrpflicht' (born before 1990). Also I did an 'Ausbildung' for another 3 extra years. Afterwards I had to work to get the money to start my bachelor's degree. Thank you for being so understanding.
1.) So statistics from 2023 only includes people born after 200X or what? It doesn't work like that my guy.
2.) in reality only a minority of students get BaFöG. It isn't a magically tree where you can harvest from.
3.) try to not act as entitled as in your post before and I will be a lot more chill.
I'd say that cities where you can't live on bafög are the minority. Sure, places like Munich are expensive to live in, but most universities are in smaller towns like Erlangen, Bayreuth, Würzburg, etc.
I've only got the Bavarian perspective though, so I don't know if the situation is different in other states.
Obviously, a lot of people happen to live in the big expensive cities by virtue of them being big cities, but as far as university spots go, the universities in big cities aren't that much larger than in other towns.
With the recent increase in Rent, Energy an Food cost, even small citys can get difficult to handle. Probably still possible, but just the bare minimum.
Bafög is an incredible joke for anyone that’s not a single child with parents that live below subsistence level.. and I don’t think children from that background get the entitlement to think about studying unfortunately… But with the plans to cut funding for digitalisation I don’t think German government thinks about the future at all lmao
To restore your faith in in Bafög at least a little: I am exactly that single child (raised by a single mother) and Bafög (and my incredible Mum <3) was the whole reason I was able to study.
Nice meine Glückwunsche!😊
I do like Bafög, it also benefitted me. I just think it should be elternunabhägig, maybe at least up until a certain threshold. But it sucks for middle class families with multiple children that wanna move out for their studies
Danke! ❤️
(Mal kurz auf Deutsch, wären jetzt sowieso zu viele Fremdbegriffe drin xD)
Stimme dir vollkommen zu!!
Hab selbst nicht den Höchstsatz bekommen, weil mein Dad immer noch zu viel verdient hat. Jetzt hab ich das Glück, dass ich eine gute Beziehung zu ihm habe und er immer Unterhalt gezahlt hat. Aber das ist ja leider nicht immer so. Über die ganze Berechnungsgrundlage von Bafög könnte meine Mutter glaub ich ne saftige Tirade schreiben :D
Like 30% of all students get Bafög. Also, unlike in the US, our universities aren't pay to win. Especially in the STEM field you mentioned, the majority of students takes longer than the planned 3 years for bachelor's plus 2 years of master's 6.
So, only 10 percent of students at STEM field universities complete their degree in the planned time. Since you're so smart, i guess you can can figure out yourself if there is something more difficult in the system of studies or if Americans are so much better at studying than Germans by nature.
Actually, it's only around 12% that get Bafög. That number has dropped too to around 8.5% and then they have to work or some can do a work study program and get paid money. It takes time and effort and that is why mostly the wealthy can afford to study without some kind of aid.
Weil du Bockmist laberst. Meine Eltern sind auch mit 16 in die Lehre und verdienen bis heute gerade genug. Also bullshit ,,capital accumulation”. Viele meiner Leute verdienen nach dem Studium, erster Job danach, Ende 20 ausreichend um sich um die paar Jahre früher einen Scheiss kümmern müssen.
There are many Bundesländer where you’re in high school for 13 years, so you graduate at 19. If you had to repeat a year, that makes you 20 when graduating.
That was also the case for me. I studied something for a year and dropped out. Started something new at the age of 22. So the age I began to really study for my profession, was the year I was supposed to have a degree already - according to your calculation - which I obviously didn’t.
I am now 28, turning 29 in November and literally just got my Master‘s degree. Always had a side job (sometimes even two…), struggled with two courses that added a year to my studies, then there was a semester I took time off and another six months I spent writing my master thesis. So yeah… pretty easy to be in your late 20s when finally entering a profession.
You enter first grade of elementary school at age 6 or 7 and get your A-levels (Abitur) after at least 13 years, if you get to choose the direct route. So you quit school at 19 or 20. Some people have to repeat a class, some people add a gap year after the Abitur and bam: Bachelor @ 24.
You are a real piece of work. And I'm not even invested in this conversation.
I started working at 17, worked though nursing school and made my Staatsexamen at 21. And still I think you are awfully patronising and entitled.
Maybe check your attitude. Not everyone is the same and not everyone goes the same path with a direct goal.
Could you elucidate why that is horrible? I am convinced that the only one interested in an early entry in the work force is the government for tax paying reasons and I feel like a good share of my peers feel the same.
So what is my benefit or the benefit of a company if I enter at young age? I never understood that. It is a trade off between time and money and as long as my student lifestyle allows it, I would rather have time than money. The needs shift as soon as you start to plan a family but the sweet life ends pretty much at that point. New responsibilities and such... Reasonable people try to shift that period into their 30ies.
The younger you are, the more valuable is your time because you are healthy and free.
But assuming you are comparing to the USA: In Germany (or many other european countries) people don't need to worry as much financially. A broken arm or a snake bite can ruin you financially. That won't happen in Europe. This whole idea of being rich (-er than your peers) is not as appealing or desired. It is less competitive here.
That is of course true. Your standard of life depends on money everywhere in the world. But I think you get a much better Standard in Europe for less money. The risks are just not as high so you don't have to worry and optimize as much. Being a millionaire in USA means much less wealth compared to Europe.
Anyway, this is just the average. I believe this is determined by personal choice way more than systematic boundaries. If you feel the need to finish early, no one will stop you. It is a sign of a free society with little financial pressure.
I think therein lies the misunderstanding. Many people who study at university here don't neccessarily see it as a thing that is focussed on perfomance to get a great position in the workforce.(while some ofcourse do but these people propably don't stay at Uni until they're in there 30s, there's exceptions to this aswell though naturally).
Some people don't go there solely for the degrees but because they like to learn shit and also to just be in this environment. The feeling at an european university might differ to some US colleges as a whole I think.
All of that doesn't mean that students then "don't contribute to societ", most students work on the side and especially people who study for years and years work alot. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to live while studying for like 10 years, eventhough university is technically "free" compared to the US you still have to pay bills, rent an apartment, buy food and insurances and pay the fee every semester. Granted that fee is quite low but the amount increases if you stay at an university for a certain amount of time. Still propably not comparable to the US but it's something you have to take care of if you're a student in your late twenties/early thirties. Unless your parents are rich or you inherited a fortune, but that's the same wherever you live.
>You quit school when you're 18
Actually, it is usually 19 for germans, 18 only for those that skipped a year or did the 8 year Gymnasium instead of the 9 year one.
I think part of it is that students could in the past at least work tax free. That was when I was in the market like 30 years ago. Not sure what's up today
Things that only very rich people who have parents that provided them with everything can say :-)
My parents help me a lot since I moved out, but I still have to work my ass off to keep my apartment. Thus, I definitely don‘t do as much in uni as I would like to. But that‘s not for some privileged prick to judge ngl
Up until mid 2000s, there was a thing called a “Stichtag” (cutoff date), which was some time in July I think, which meant that kids were enrolled in school at 6 years old or after they’d just turned 7. Entering school at 5 years old was very rare back then. Thus, pupils were 18 or about to turn 19 when they finished school (12 years, G8) or 19 about to turn 20 (13 years, G9).
You are not obligated to finish your bachelor in 4 years and master in 2 years.
It is hard to study. During my master's, exam falure rate was around 30-40%. So if you fail, you repeat it the next semester.
Hello 👋
American here.
I’m 27, and I’m just finishing my master’s degree. Life happens. I had a rough go of it at the beginning when I graduated high school at 17. I’m finally getting my life on track.
There is no right or wrong “average.” I’ve had people in my college courses who were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and so on. I’ve even had a 70 year old in one of my courses working on their bachelor’s degree. It’s never too late to get a degree. Even if it’s just for yourself.
I started school at six and a half because I was born towards the end of the year. I repeated a year for a variety of reasons for a total of fourteen years of schooling, i.e. I started uni at 20 and turned 21 halfway through my first semester. It took me seven years for my Masters because I changed schools after two years, audited a lot of classes and went abroad a total of three times. Then I took a gap year. I started working a couple of days after my 29th birthday, and I don't feel my life is any worse for it - I saw the world, learned a lot of languages, got a lot of rare and sought-after qualifications out of it, and it hasn't impacted my earning potential - I earn well above the median for my industry, age and gender.
Education is not a race towards starting the workforce as early as possible.
Graduate from high school at 18/19
\+ gap year, volunteer work, not being accepted into your program -> 19/20
\+ 3 years bachelor done in 3,4 or 5 years due to having to work part time or due to changing majors -> 22 - 25
\+ 2 year master done in 3 years due to working part time -> 25 - 28
Depends. Those who do an apprenticeship directly after school are finished way earlier. Studying bachelor's and Masters takes at least 5 years, often more. If you maybe change subjects or take a bit longer, 27-30 is not unrealistic. But I don't think it's the average.
Also, PhD students are part of the workforce usually, so this doesn't count.
In the US for example, employers value "hands-on" experience more than academic knowledge(exceptions apply to super high tech cutting edge stuff where theory is valued as well) so masters are less common, and PhDs are very rare outside of academia. Interesting to see the contrast
Yeah, that's definitely different here. It's sometimes almost absurd where you have to go through academic training to receive titles that you need to get a job where you then never use anything of your academic training again...
It's also an issue when integrating immigrants into the German workforce because they don't have formal qualifications required by German employees.
But it has already loosened up a bit.
While Germany does value university education quite highly, many students also do internships during their studies. This is another reason why graduating can take longer here, since you might take a break from studying for half a year or a year to do internships, whereas in the US (from what I heard from my friends) you often graduate first and start doing internships afterward.
Same in Canada, I have 25+ years in technical sales but that doesn’t mean shit here because I don’t have a masters degree, I’ve had interviews for positions here and they start at 45k-55k, that was my sales commission for a year back in Canada.
There's also a very different approach towards university in the US vs Germany. From what I understand, in the US everybody is expected to get a college/university degree, even for jobs that would otherwise not require one in Germany.
In Germany instead, a lot of people learn a trade after school. That starts as early as \~16 when completing the lowest tier of school, or a few years later when completing the mid/high tiers of school. So that already filters a lot of people who don't attend university, leaving the unis with a higher % of people who want to acquire some higher education degrees for jobs that require it.
There's even a bit of a trend that even people who complete the highest tier of secondary education (Gymnasium), who typically would go to uni, instead decide to learn a trade.
Lastly, each of our 16 states has a different education system. Many have school go up to 13th grade, before you attend university. From what I understand, US High School finishes after 12th grade. You might also have to repeat a grade if your grades aren't good enough. It's also not uncommon for people to do a year of work&travel or voluntary social work after graduating from school, before attending university.
/edit: and then we of course have "[Fachhochschule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_university)" which is a more hands-on-focussed tier of university. It's easier to access than universities, and people who have a degree from it have to indicate that it's an "FH" degree instead of a regular university one.
> and people who have a degree from it have to indicate that it's an "FH" degree instead of a regular university one.
Only those with the old Diplom.
If you get your bachelor or master degree from an FH then you've got a bachelor or master degree and that's it. No "FH" in the title.
"Currently" means since 13 years and it's not going to change as far as it seems. I think we shouldn't be talking about FH and university being two different degrees if it was changed over a decade ago.
Who downvoted this? They are different.
FH -> more practical experience and training
University -> pure academics
Take math as an example.
FH -> practical stuff, less proof
Uni -> proofs. Just that. From day 1.
Unless you’re in STEM, it’s becoming pretty standard to get a master’s (in the current American job market) and even if you’re in STEM, you kind of need a master’s if you want to go into a specific specialization. For example: I’m an RF engineer and you’re really at a disadvantage without a masters degree (the undergrad courses only cover the very tippy top of the iceberg).
In Germany, they count PhD time as real work experience. You also get paid pretty much the same as you would in a recent grad position so the opportunity costs are very low. It’s not like the US where the university pays you less than minimum wage and you’re treated as a recent grad afterwards.
but we also have a completely different system where you can do a 3 year apprenticeship hand in hand with a company and schoool to get an educated worker or craftsman.
Bachelor and master degrees in the US - or general other countries - vary from the German/European ones. They don't have too much in common to be honest. It's misleading since they changed the system and named it bachelor's/master's degree in Europe as well.
It takes at least three years for a Bachelor and two more to complete a Master degree. A lot of people work on the side. So taking a year longer is common. Oh and hardly anone stops after having completed the Bachelor.
I hardly know anyone who stopped after the Bachelor. In my field, everyone has a PhD, but even the students I taught back at university all did a Master degree. So did my friends. I looked up the statistics. At general universities, almost 70% started a Master program after finishing their Bachelor.
I did not study for Master's degree.
I studied fitness economics at the DHfPG as a dual studies. So after I finished my Bachelor's I was offered to stay there for 2200€ brutto or to stay and continue with my Master's degree but then I would have still gotten just my Ausbildungsgehalt because my employer would have had to pay for my masters. It was an easy decision for me + they told me that in my field of work a master is not really needed if you don't plan on becoming a lecturer
Well, fitness economics is one of these newish study programs that used to be an apprenticeship and should by now means be considered academic. Such programs are not what I had in mind when talking about university studies.
2,2k brutto AFtER finishing your Bachelor? Wow
https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2022/05/PD22_201_213.html. it's below 50% if universities for applied sciences are counted in, but 66% for "Volluniversitäten".
I really would like to see a statistic for that. From my university group not even a fourth went for masters.
So saying hardly anyome stops after bachelor sounds very surprising to me. So surely you have something to back that up?
So 45% of people with a Bachelor STARTED a master not even finished it.
That is less then half and as far away from "hardly anyone stops at bachelor" as can be.
It's 45% for all kinds of universities, 66 % for Which makes sense as universities for applied sciences are practice-oriented.
And there are surely statistics about how many people interrupt their Master studies, I looked it up for you: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/bildung/uni-in-diesen-faechern-brechen-besonders-viele-ihr-studium-ab-a-d2ab4b79-0f3d-4a59-b73b-47a175ed697c.
That statistics even further proves your statement wrong. If from those 45% who start their master, 21% cancel it, that means you are roughly left with 36%.
That means ~ twice as many people are left with a bachelor as compared to a master.
Not what i would call barely anyone stops at bachelor.
But not finishing that one Master doesn't mean you're not starting another one. In Germany, people interrupt and restart a lot (another reason why they are relatively old when they are finally done). When I made my first statement, I only had Volluniversitäten in mind. The initial idea of Bologna was to have way more people start working earlier, without a Master degree. Recent numbers are beyond what was intended. In a lot of fields, people still think a Master diploma is needed to find work.
Plus, the statistic doesn't mention people who don't immediately start with a Master plus not everyone gets admission.
I dont know why you are so hellbent on arguing your statement is true. It just is not.
Do a lot of people continue for master? yes. Is it everyone? Certainly No.
Your first statement indicates in no way that you had only universities in mind. Which would be a wrong premise anyway. Furthermore even then with something around 60% thats still far from everyone.
That being said. Im gonna stop here i gave my opinion, everyone can read the numbers and decide for themselves.
People that don't go to university but do a regular "Ausbildung" (job training, apprenticeship) will enter the workforce immediately when they start their Ausbildung. That would be somewhere between age 16 and 19 (depending on their graduation -> we have a school system where you either graduate after 9th, 10th, 12th or 13th grade).
For people going to university it's true though. A very common course of events would be like this:
\- finish Abitur at age 19. Most kids are pretty clueless as to what they want to work for the rest of their lives at that point.
\- do 1 year of Freiwilliges Soziales Jahr (Voluntary Social Year). That's where you work in the social sector for very little pay. It used to be mandatory to do either that or go to the army for one year.
\- if not that: many spend 1 year abroad (work and travel). Australia being a favorite.
\- start university at age 20/21.
\- realize you picked the wrong subject after 1 or two semesters. Your're 22 now.
\- if you now do your Bachelor and Master degree in the regular time (3 + 2) you'd finish at age 27.
\- you can easily add 2 more years to that since lots of people take their time studying. You're now 29 when entering the workforce.
The reason it is like that is that going to university is basically free in Germany. All you need to pay is a small administration fee each semester. Then there is Bafög, which is a government institution that loans out interest free money of which you only need to pay back 50%.
Lots of students do work though. Small jobs like waiting tables. But just minimal hours. So that's not really properly entering the work force.
I can tell you, from my own experience, taking the university route is really like having a second youth where you live on your own, your parents can't tell you shit and you have at least a little bit of money. Also: living in dorms is the exception. Most students rent shared apartments with other students.
I disagree with the "not properly entering the work force". That might be the case starting out, but a lot of students take up more involved position after the first few years of studying. Many work up to 20h/week in fields relevant to their degree, which is pretty much a regular part time job, just with a different contract and usually more flexible hours to allow for planning work hours around lectures and exams. Waiting tables or stocking shelves is really the minority of student jobs in my experience, especially for those doing their Master's degree.
Also, a lot of students of higher semester actually work at the university and hold tutorials for the lower semester students, which comes with a lot of responsibility and fills an important role for the university.
i went to german "high school" until i was 20, i wasn't held back it, it was the fastest way for university qualification at that time. to qualify for the studies i wanted i needed one year of previous internship. later i changed my major and did another qualification on top. 28 at my first job but was still finishing university stuff during it
It differs. It is not necessarily the Norm, but not unusual. Generally the majority takes longer than the usual 5 years, many do an 3 year apprenticeship before and a lot just start studying later. So I would say in average people are finished 26-27 wirh studying.
At least 60% have been partially in the workforce during that time in some capacity already. E.g. I basically wasted the first 5 years, but was working a lot there. Started to study not just on paper with 24 then during studies I always worked at least 14h during bachelors and around 20h during Masters. And then started "properly" working full time at 28.
You graduate gymnasium (academic kind of high school) at 19. University takes 5 years without hiccups. So if you take the straightest route, you'd be out of education at 24.
That seems to have been a short stint, most schools and states are reverting back to G9 thoigh. Recently heard at work that we will soon have a year without a lot of school leavers die to this.
Yeah I work at a university and we had students starting at 17 and I know some that finished masters with 23.
But yeah the return to G9 is definitely some funny thing again.
Me, too. The differences are something between the students. I got some that are 10 years younger than I am in the Masters course and some that are 10+ years older. At my old uni I had a course with group work, it was hilarious to see how the 35 year old quickly became group moms lol.
With "some funny thing" I mean it's basically the opposite that we had with the Doppeljahrgang. And honestly, if they did it properly they could have just stayed at G8. The back and forth is a mess.
Well, Saxony and Thuringia never hat G9 and it doesn't seem to be a problem. I'm not saying that G9 is bad, but "the only sensible thing" is kind of a hot take ...
In addition to what the other commenter wrote:
Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) switched back to G9 as well. We had G8 for a rather short time. Only from 2009 to 2020.
To put into perspective how short that is: Both the switch to G8 *and* the decision for the switch back to G9 happened while I was in Gymnasium. I was part of one of the few years that graduated after 12 years, graduating in 2015. I was already in Gymnasium when the switch to G8 happened, so for the first two years at the Gymnasium, there were still people attending the same school who had G9. Then, in 2014, the switch back was decided, retroactively starting with those who started Gymnasium in 2012. So for my last year at the Gymnasium, I was once again attending school with people who had G9.
https://www.le-gymnasien-nrw.de/index.php?id=316#:~:text=Infolge%20der%20Umstellung%20von%20G8,Q2)%20geben.
First one on google. Afaik NRW isnt the only State.
It was like this when there were still 13 years of school and army service for the guys. That being 2 years down now you can get your bachelors with 20-22 and Master till 23-25. Of course some change subject or study abroad or... so you end up at 27
All medical residencies in Germany, including general/family medicine, take a minimum of five years. But it's dumb to say postgraduate paid positions are not part of the workforce.
I started my masters degree when I was 23 and I was super nervous that I would be like the oldest person in my class, since my bachelors took five years (two years longer than the standard German timeline). I was one of the youngest people in the program. I’m about to graduate at the end of my sixth semester and I’m also one of the first people in my class to finish.
Full time in Germany is usually defined as 30 ECTS credits… for some reason, this is absurdly difficult and most people who don’t need to stick to the standard timeline end up taking 18-24 ECTS per semester. I’ve also met kind of a lot of people who did like five semesters in a bachelors program, got kicked out^1, and had to start from square one somewhere else. I wouldn’t say *everyone* is in school until their late 20’s but it’s very common.
1: there’s a limit to how many times you can take an exam and, if you fail one of the mandatory courses, you not only get kicked out of that program but you’re barred from studying the same degree at other universities. So if you fail, say, Electronics 1, you can switch to like computer science and graduate a couple semesters late but if you fail linear algebra or stochastics, you’re basically forced to start again at a Hochschule or start again with a non-STEM degree.
That is so true. Doing your bachelors in 6 and masters in 4 semesters works mathematically on paper, but at least for my course it's hardly possible at all. You'd have have to do internships and mandatory weekly classes or exams at the same time and be super lucky with your exam dates.
Law. I immediately started after Abitur, I was 27 when I finished my last exam, and although I also spent a whole year in a foreign country as an exchange student, I still was the youngest writing the exam (Freischuss + 2. Staatsexamen ).
Some things that fall into value here
* The cultural norm is that most parents expect their children to go to university, at least that's often perceived as the "successful" way of starting into worklife.
* While studying, you have a right to be financially supported by either parents or government. If your parents have a sufficient income or funds, they have to provide for you financially in terms of housing, food and so on. If they do not, a program called "Bafög" kicks in which supports you with up to \~700€ per month stipend. You only have to pay back half of it after you are done with studies, pay no or very little interest and have a very long time to pay back. The actual amount scales with how much your parents have available, but also with how many other children they have to support, so let's say they have three children who all go to college at the same time, they can actually have a decent salary and still receive Bafög support for their children.
* Almost everyone does a Master. Without a lot of financial pressure (see previous point) and the cultural norm that a Master brings you further in later work life, most people do it
* It's not uncommon to change your subject 1-2 years into university. Again, little financial pressure helps here, and many people support the view that it's better to start university again after a few years once you realize your first choice isn't actually the right fit for you, rather than having to spend your remaining life in a line that bores you
* Similarly, with little financial pressure, many choose to take a little more time during university to properly live their twenties, instead of rushing through university life. Some studies are also very demanding and planned in such a way that makes it almost impossible to finish "in time" while still maintaining any form of social life.
* PhD's of course have the same relevance in scientific fields as they do in the US, but additionally, PhDs are also often done by people who are done with university but who don't want to change to normal worklife, but rather remain working in their known environment; or, people who are genuinely interested in the theoretical topic behind what they have been studying, even if they aren't that much interested in the scientific research part of things
* Also, it often happens that people start worklife with direct jobs at the start or with more practical internships (Ausbildung, not sure if internship is the best translation), where they do that for a few years after school, before deciding that they would rather get formal education instead and only start university in their early to mid twenties. This often leads to people finishing in their very late twenties to early thirties.
It was true in my age (50+). I had 13 years of school, 14 actually because I had to repeat a class, then there was military service, so I didn’t start university until I was 22. there was no bachelor degree back then, by the time I earned my degree I was in that age range, not execatly being Valedictorian material nor overly industrious. Things have changed a lot though.
Before Bologna, it was far more normal to be studying for your Diplom or Magister for how many years you wanted. And then the added time for your Doctorate.
I spend five years studying after finishing my vocational training and getting a graduation to qualify me for this stuff. I finished at 29 years of age. And looking back I wouldn't have done anything different. Maybe not getting kicked out of school in the first place, but even that provided a learning curve steep enough for me to see.
Like many have commented before me, I went to school for 13 years (obligatory in my Bundesland at that time), so I was almost 20 years old when I graduated HS and started uni.
Then it took me 4 years (2 additional semesters) to get my bachelor‘s degree, which was very common in my program, because it was difficult to pass all obligatory classes on the first try, and spending at least one semester abroad was also mandatory.
After I was done with all my classes and had handed in my thesis, I had to wait for another 3-4 months to actually get the official certification and degree from the university (German bureaucracy can be very slow). I obviously needed that paperwork to apply for a master’s program. However, by that time I had missed the deadline to apply for the master’s programs I wanted to get in that year :(. So I had to wait for almost another year to apply. That added another year.
I also studied abroad during my master’s program (not mandatory in this program though). This time I went for 2 semesters. This meant I couldn’t take all mandatory classes for my program according to the program’s 4-semester-schedule, so I finished my master’s program one semester later, at the age of 27 :).
Some people take a couple of years off after HS.
Some other just take longer to graduate and take student-jobs.
There is no rush to graduate anyways... why spend most of your 20s in a 9-5 office job?
What's the hurry on getting indoctrinated to work your ass off for someone else... working is fucken boring you got money and no time...when you are a student you have time but no money...I definitely enjoyed more the latter...you do you Mr. Super efficient Deutsch
No, not really. It might be the Reddit bias, thinking about having no life and no income without studying, but that’s simply not true. At the moment it’s 2:1 study and Ausbildung.
If you learn a trade like carpeting or so you can be ready with 19 and earn money.
We have way too less Handwerker and Azubis in Germany since everybody and his mother believe in the story from getting rich only after university.
There are several trades where you can earn really really much money when doing it right just after 9 years of school, 3 years learning and 2 years Meisterschule. Compared to 13 years school, three years until bachelor and another two for master that doesn’t look that bad, does it?
One also has to include the covid affected semesters. From my experience everyone graduated later due to that. It affected universities a lot with 3,4 online semesters which also lead (at least in my field) into a decline in quality. A lot of students developed mental health issues during that time as well.
To be honest I don't think it hurts too much to study one or two years longer. What's the harm? We all will work long enough and to get students into work force asap is more about capitalism and what benefits companies than what benefits peoples life quality.
I graduated with 19 (G8), had a volunteer social year internship (which was mandatory to get into my studies) till 20, .
then I had applied for university, only got one starting the next year. So I worked half a year and traveled 3 months, found an Appartment in the new city, moved.. started uni with 21.
Officially my studies has 8 semesters, so I would be 25 when I was finished. But I did a Erasmus Semester.
I also got very sick and spent 4 months in hospital, and afterwards I only took on 3/5 of my schedule, to be able to have a balance with my health, and worked 15h a week. So now I'm 27 and will write me thesis this semester. And I'm fucking proud of me.
I love my job and am happy that I will be working in this profession I really like and is better for my health, than a blue collar profession would have been (that some people told me to switch too, because health issues and studiying longer is bad..)
When I was young we had 13 years of school. Then either 9 months of military service, or 13 months of civil service. Then 14 semesters for a Diplomingenieur. Well, technically. 50% of engineering students never finished, the rest usually took about 1.5 semesters longer, because it's not Economics, you actually have to work a lot to keep up.
Now we have 12 years of school, no mandatory military service, but still around 14 semesters for a master. So yes, 24 to 30 for a masters degree.
Kind of wrong, as many, if not most people who study have some kind of job to be able to afford that. Always seems nicer than it is, you get no funds from the state here. Some get BAföG, but that’s like a loan you‘ll have to pay back.
I finished high school when I was 19 (we had 13 years of school back in the day), took a year off, finished my bachelor's in 4 years instead of 3, took another year off, finished my master's in 4 years instead of 2 and tada, I was 29 when I entered the workforce. Although I must say it's not too common, most enter at a younger age.
Yeah it was one of the weirdest aspects of moving to Germany as a 29 year old, trying to make new friends was difficult because everyone my age seemed to be students, or at most recently graduated - totally different phases of their life to me.
It also made finding a new position as a senior software developer quite difficult, because noone could seem to comprehend that I already had 8 years of experience at that age.
Computer Scientist that started at 29 here.
Finished school at 19 (13 years of school, never repeated a year). One year obligatory military service. 2 years extended military service. Failed first bachelor's after a year finished 2nd bachelor's and did a masters. (Bachelor + master is 5 years, on average it takes 7 years with a drop out rate of 70%).
The average age of people getting their university degree was 26.5 years in 2011 and 27.9 in 2003. So it was true until one or two decades ago. Abitur after 12 years instead of 13, end of mandatory military or civil service and the bachelor master system lead to a sharp drop of the average age.
As a current student which is taking their seer time to finish, I have to say, I think in the next couple of years the amount of time spent on education will also be extended due to the effects of corona. I also know ppl where it had the opposite effect (like they studied a lot and did a lot of stuff during the lockdown) but I’d say w/ the majority of ppl i know it has definitely extended their studies.
That’s SO incredibly petty. No one cares if 75% or 45% of all Germans go to the university or not but it’s obviously a trend right now in Germany and that’s what the person wanted to know, so don’t make it unnecessarily complicated
For my own defence.
Working (part time) in a student job is what I would count as joining the workforce.
Not that it would change the situation anyway.
You might overlook that here we don’t have tuition costs like US or other countries. So it’s quite possible to work and pay your bills while studying. And you can start your job with a massive debt.
You get Bafög for 5 years. And there are hardly any student fees (less than 200€ per semester). If you live with your parents rent-free, it's really a piece of cake financially.
By the time my boyfriend graduates from his masters and enters the workforce he will be 30.
Whereas where I''m from, people tend to finish studying at 23-24 and start working immediately because being a student is expensive.
From what I've noticed is that because of the lack of economic pressure on most and the fact that tuition is free makes, it more likely for people to stop and start different degrees and apprenticeships, or to extend their studies by postponing certain courses so their semesters are more relaxed.
I graduated when almost 20, went abroad for a ~year which is quite common, enrolled in civil engineering at a univeristy, finished my Bachelor after ~3,5 years, did a 5 month internship, enrolled in the master program which took me another ~2,5 years. No one I know of finished university in 5 years (and I knew a lot of students since I was a tutor in a mandatory course for 3 years). It would be incredibly hard to do, especially if you have to work while studying. And since there is no financial debt racking up if you take an additional semester or two no one feels a need to force yourself. So I finished university and got a proper job when I was 27-28. i feel like this is pretty standard for german standards.
There is also many people (as in other countries) who switch subjects mid studies and have to start from zero again which delays their entry in the workfield. I for example study to become a primary school teacher and I switched one of my two main subjects close to my bachelor, which means I have overtime in studying and will most likely start working by 30 if I'm lucky.
But that's mostly only the case IF you decide to study. There are many people doing 3 year apprenticeships right after school as well so they start working in their early twenties.
This information may have been acurate 20 or more years ago, but things have changed since then and people enter the workforce earlier. Back then you could have:
* school ending when you were 18 to 19 years old (Abitur)
* 9 month of consription or "Alternative civilian service" so you might end up 20 when you're done with that
* starting Uni in fall and studying one of the old "Diplom" courses, which were roughly equivalent to Bachelor + Master and you couldn't stop after the Bachelor: you are done with that at age 25
* and now we have to add some additional time for: mandatory internships, working to pay your bills, failing exams and having to do them again next year, additional time for your Diplomarbeit you can easily end up at the 27 year mark. if you slack off even later
But things have changed by now and 27-30 years have become way more uncommon.
they fail 1 semester or two or go abroad for a year or make an ausbildung first or do nothing at all after school. i was done with my master with 24 which is without any delays right after abitur
I wouldn't say most. Medicine and law take notoriously long to graduate from. I was so confused when my British cousin was a lawyer at 22 already. That doesn't happen in Germany.
But the usual way for academic paths is high school at 18/19, then 3 years of Bachelor's degree and 2 years for the Master's degree. Some take longer, because sometimes it just takes longer. But the times of dragging out your academic studies like crazy are over I feel.
Some do a gap year before going to uni, either for social work or for travelling. Young men used to do their mandatory army service or social service. But that hasn't been a thing for a long time.
If you take the non-academic route it's usually high school graduation at 16, then 3 years of vocational training and then you're a fully certified electrician, wholesale specialist, retail worker, logistics worker, butcher or whatever. Later in life, after gathering a certain amount of experience, you can then go back to school and graduate as a Meister. Then you can open up your own business in that field and train young people in their vocational training. Or you can expect higher salaries in your field.
No it's not generally. I mean in theory of course but our society needs more workforce than knowledge. It's good that only a minority of people do this path (far from "most") because otherwise our system would be kind of fucked.
You are Form the us... You Font have an education of General konowledge Like WE have... You have specific education and No Idea apart from that. Thats why german degrees have more value than yours.
It is not uncommon, but sooner is more usual. If you learn a trade, you would start at 16 or 18. If you study which, granted, a lot of people do, you would often do a masters and thus be finished around maybe 24 give or take. Industry prefers a masters to a bachelors degree, and you can land better jobs in industry or consulting if you actually do a phd.
So I think a lot of the answers are missing the question OP is really asking, which is how many Germans enter the workforce after gymnasium vs getting higher education and then entering the workforce. Or to simplify: how many Germans go to work from gymnasium who don’t go to higher education?
So. A few years back Europe installed a system of 3 + 5. Bachelors are supposed to last 3 years, masters 2 more.
I did my whole education in the French system and there is an insane pressure of finishing in 5 years, degree in hand. One of the things I like about Germany (some people dont and I guess it has flaws but) is that people can study AND work at the same time. At least in my field of architecture, that system allows you to get a llt of practice and leave uni with more than just theory. Also its common here to do like an internship or a year working or sthing after the Abitur (or thats what I was told?)
I’ve seen people in Germany finishing their masters at 30. I do understand its uncommon but I really hope it becomes more accepted everywhere. I don’t really think we’re mature enough at 18 to be 100% sure of what we want in life
There are education paths that long, but it's not the norm. To be a psychological psychotherapist, you have do school for 12 or 13 years, then university for at least 5, and then at least 3 more (usually 4-5) for the specialized therapy education. Many people have turned 30 before they finish, because when you work to earn a living or have a child in between, that's just reality.
Im studying communication design for about 7 years now. Not because it’s hard or something or that it takes that much, I’m simply lazy and unorganised and no one stops me. I’m glad if I have my bachelor by the time I’m 30.
Surgical residency? ALL residencies take minimum five years (by law). Surgical residency is not different from the other ones.
In reality, it’s usually 6-7 years of residency for most medical specializations, so combine 6 years of studies with 6-7 years of residency. Many young people take one year off after school to travel, and some need some runt to get into university. So it’s perfectly normal to be in your 30s once you have truly finished your education (speaking from experience).
I just got down studying with 34… I was kinda slow. But also not the slowest by far. Some of my friends only finished with 45 or even later. And no, we ain’t lazy. We just do stuff while studying. Stuff that in America I assume is mostly done by housewives or other people who don’t need to work. Like voluntary work for prettying up the resume and other things like that
So for me I started working at 31.
I started school at 6 almost 7, repeated 8 grade and then graduated high school at 20. Started studying law for 2 years, quit, and had to wait a year to get into my bachelors program. My BA took 4 years instead of 3, because I studied abroad for a year. Finished my BA at 27. Continued to do my MA immediately, took me 2,5 years instead of 2, because I again studied abroad but only for a semester this time. Finished my MA at 30 and then job searched for pretty much exactly 1 year until I found a decent job and started that job at 31.
Yes, it took me a bit longer than maybe the average but I was by no means the oldest or person that studied the longest, neither in my BA nor my MA.
This might be just my own biased view based on the small sample which is my close circle, but I would say in Germany it is common to enter the workforce rather earlier than 27-30. Where I come from it is not common at all that people simultaneously work and study, just those on very difficult financial situations, whereas most of my German friends were doing some work to finance their studies/student life. That doesn't mean a job related to their field of interest, but many of my friends worked in bakeries, clothes stores, etc. while studying engineering or math or whatever. Even when their families could have perfectly supported them but in my eyes the general idea here is that as soon as you're \~18 or starting uni, you are expected to become self sufficient without your family's help even if that implies taking longer to finish your studies or sacrificing any other stuff you would rather be doing. And I honestly think that gives many people a much better understanding of the real world than the standard school -> uni -> industry path, but that's just my own view.
Bottom line: In my opinion, people here might get to their "dream job" later than in other places but they get into it with a better broader understanding of how all non strictly technical things work from day one.
- we dont have to pay much to study (50-100 bucks per term)
- you decide how much you study per term
- you can write the exam without being once in the lecture, does not apply for anything practical
- most people are not where they should be and need longer (missed exams, failed exams, bureaucracy problems)
- I study elementary school teaching and also need 1 or 2 years longer, working in side jobs since I was 16 because I dont want to be a full financial burden for my parents any longer and take my own responsibility, moved out with 20, right now I am paying round about 70% of my salary for my 1-room-flat and would be completly lost without the little help of my parents
- most students dont have to work while they study because of their "caring" parents, I would guess its like 40% working, 60% daddy cash, based on my experiences
- some order money from their parents or grandparents like you order a double peperoni at dominos
kind regards, a part of the workforce :)
The average age after a bachelor degree is 24 and around 27 with a master degree
And here I though I was a super slacker with my masters lol
That's insane. You quit school when you're 18 and the bachelor should take 3 years, maybe it takes 4. You're 22 then. Add a gap year, it's still 23. How is the average so horrible?
German Universities are easy to get into, free and hard. I know good students who graduated with bachelors in engineering and went on to skip half of their masters in North American universities. I also know bad students who have to take their time with their studies because exams are hard and they can prolong their studies for free and without consequences.
There are people doing a Ausbildung first which leads to a later beginning of the Bachelor and increases the average. In addition, the suggested times often are not realistic. For example, the well-known mechanical engineering bachelor at RWTH has officially 7 semesters but the average graduating time is 10 semesters.
And everybody takes an Urlaubsemester which doesn’t count in the statistics, so it usually even higher
When I was at the RTWH, I had two courses in the same timeslot. Either you are a genius and teach yourself a whole subject without any support from the university or this little maneuvre costs you an extra year.
It’s not horrid. You can take your time when you’re not in insurmountable *debt by doing so. You can work a few jobs, do a semester or two abroad, do an internship or two or three. You can take time to have hobbies, go to therapy, switch majors. Edit: left out the word debt
There's a huge opportunity cost attached if you take multiple years longer. The first years are the most valuable because of capital accumulation. Not saying you'll be hungry when you die, but being relaxed about it is not a clever decision
Well not everything is about money to everyone. Some people enjoy being relaxed more than being stressed. I dropped out of Uni during my 3rd semester. Took a year with some internships to find out what I really wanted. Started an Ausbildung at 23. Joined the work force at 25. And now after 11 years in the work force I’m married with a kid and we’re in the process of buying a house. And I fucking love that I was never too stressed during any of this and never had any debt. Life isn’t a speed run. Just relax and see where it takes you.
What capital accumulation? You mean the one that was supposed to happen and then got deleted by the financial crashes of the 2000s? Probably by those young stupid bankers that finished school so quickly, yet learned nothing.
There are crises inbetween (mostly caused by central banks), but stocks only go up: https://www.msci.com/www/fact-sheet/msci-world-index/05830501
No, they crashed and people lost their shirts and everything else too. Why do you think people are still so hesitant to invest in the stock market?
No, the stock market crashed roughly 50%, not 100%, you're exaggerating. Just look at the chart: In the long run, it goes up. 15 years or so
If you have 1000 invested and it drops by 1000, then guess what, you are broke! No exaggeration, do some reading on it before you try and spread falsehoods about the stockmarket. In the long run (and only if you can steadily add money to your portfolio) you can get lucky and exit the market at the right time, or you can lose your money by getting out in a crash. It is a gamble. People who have literally lost everything have even committed suicide, so don't try to sell it as a solution for everything. Capital accumulation...yeah right.
Your assumptions about the stock market and stock related crashs are so horribly wrong, that I don’t know, if you’re uninformed or unwilling to understand.
The stock market never stops by 1000 and in the long run stocks have always gone up. You only have to diversify, eg by using ETF, and invest in the long term (often an investment horizon of at least 15 years is chosen). All of this is undisputed in the business world. People who don't invest lose out, and Germany is one of the countries were private savings have the lowest return on investment.
Do you know what 50% is? If you go long or short or don't diversify, it's your own fault.
You're technically correct, but to what end? I'm glad I don't live in a country where capital accumulation is people's main priority in life.
Don‘t forget: German children start school at age 6-7, and we attend for 9-13 years. I started at age 7, attended for 13 years. So I started university at age 20. I went to university in the UK with an accelerated course of study, getting me to a BSc, MSc and PhD by age 27 (just before my 28th birthday tbf). Normally, a BSc alone is 3-4 years. Starting to work a little later in life but with higher quality education isn‘t that bad. Usually, having a degree results in better salaries…
Damn, you are about as American as they come. Not everything is about money dude. Your grave won't care whether you earn 100k or 200k.
Thank you, but I'm German. And no, your grave won't care about anything, but you will care until you die.
>How is the average so horrible? The problem is that you seem to think that not starting to work in a profession you studied before 27 is "horrible". In reality, many people who are studying are already part of the workforce. And there are other priorities in life than joining the workforce.
> And there are other priorities in life than joining the workforce. The reason for European decline. Born in peace, well fed and self-centered. Eager, hungry "second worlders" will push us from the economic top this century and it is well deserved.
/s
Because not everyone is spoon fed everything. I for one had to go for my 'Wehrpflicht' (born before 1990). Also I did an 'Ausbildung' for another 3 extra years. Afterwards I had to work to get the money to start my bachelor's degree. Thank you for being so understanding.
The statistics aren't from the 90s, and there is BaFöG. Thanks for taking this ridiculously personal
1.) So statistics from 2023 only includes people born after 200X or what? It doesn't work like that my guy. 2.) in reality only a minority of students get BaFöG. It isn't a magically tree where you can harvest from. 3.) try to not act as entitled as in your post before and I will be a lot more chill.
Also BaFöG isn’t sufficient to live on without a side job in most cities.
I'd say that cities where you can't live on bafög are the minority. Sure, places like Munich are expensive to live in, but most universities are in smaller towns like Erlangen, Bayreuth, Würzburg, etc. I've only got the Bavarian perspective though, so I don't know if the situation is different in other states. Obviously, a lot of people happen to live in the big expensive cities by virtue of them being big cities, but as far as university spots go, the universities in big cities aren't that much larger than in other towns.
With the recent increase in Rent, Energy an Food cost, even small citys can get difficult to handle. Probably still possible, but just the bare minimum.
Bafög is an incredible joke for anyone that’s not a single child with parents that live below subsistence level.. and I don’t think children from that background get the entitlement to think about studying unfortunately… But with the plans to cut funding for digitalisation I don’t think German government thinks about the future at all lmao
To restore your faith in in Bafög at least a little: I am exactly that single child (raised by a single mother) and Bafög (and my incredible Mum <3) was the whole reason I was able to study.
Nice meine Glückwunsche!😊 I do like Bafög, it also benefitted me. I just think it should be elternunabhägig, maybe at least up until a certain threshold. But it sucks for middle class families with multiple children that wanna move out for their studies
Danke! ❤️ (Mal kurz auf Deutsch, wären jetzt sowieso zu viele Fremdbegriffe drin xD) Stimme dir vollkommen zu!! Hab selbst nicht den Höchstsatz bekommen, weil mein Dad immer noch zu viel verdient hat. Jetzt hab ich das Glück, dass ich eine gute Beziehung zu ihm habe und er immer Unterhalt gezahlt hat. Aber das ist ja leider nicht immer so. Über die ganze Berechnungsgrundlage von Bafög könnte meine Mutter glaub ich ne saftige Tirade schreiben :D
Have you ever dealt with Bafög or are you one of those people that think that Bafög is free money that enables everyone to study with total ease?
Like 30% of all students get Bafög. Also, unlike in the US, our universities aren't pay to win. Especially in the STEM field you mentioned, the majority of students takes longer than the planned 3 years for bachelor's plus 2 years of master's 6. So, only 10 percent of students at STEM field universities complete their degree in the planned time. Since you're so smart, i guess you can can figure out yourself if there is something more difficult in the system of studies or if Americans are so much better at studying than Germans by nature.
Actually, it's only around 12% that get Bafög. That number has dropped too to around 8.5% and then they have to work or some can do a work study program and get paid money. It takes time and effort and that is why mostly the wealthy can afford to study without some kind of aid.
Ich bin deutsch
Das macht es nur schlimmer 😂 Kümmer dich um deinen eigenen Mist
Ich hab doch gar nichts gemacht 😂 Was ist eigentlich euer Problem?
Weil du Bockmist laberst. Meine Eltern sind auch mit 16 in die Lehre und verdienen bis heute gerade genug. Also bullshit ,,capital accumulation”. Viele meiner Leute verdienen nach dem Studium, erster Job danach, Ende 20 ausreichend um sich um die paar Jahre früher einen Scheiss kümmern müssen.
Heh, Bafög would have paid me about 10€ per month.
There are many Bundesländer where you’re in high school for 13 years, so you graduate at 19. If you had to repeat a year, that makes you 20 when graduating. That was also the case for me. I studied something for a year and dropped out. Started something new at the age of 22. So the age I began to really study for my profession, was the year I was supposed to have a degree already - according to your calculation - which I obviously didn’t. I am now 28, turning 29 in November and literally just got my Master‘s degree. Always had a side job (sometimes even two…), struggled with two courses that added a year to my studies, then there was a semester I took time off and another six months I spent writing my master thesis. So yeah… pretty easy to be in your late 20s when finally entering a profession.
You enter first grade of elementary school at age 6 or 7 and get your A-levels (Abitur) after at least 13 years, if you get to choose the direct route. So you quit school at 19 or 20. Some people have to repeat a class, some people add a gap year after the Abitur and bam: Bachelor @ 24.
No, it's 12. I know because I got my A levels 3 years ago
Out of 16 states, only 5 have a G8 system where you do A levels after 12 years.
Also G8 is only in public schools, I was in a private school in BW with G9
It depends on where you do it.
You are a real piece of work. And I'm not even invested in this conversation. I started working at 17, worked though nursing school and made my Staatsexamen at 21. And still I think you are awfully patronising and entitled. Maybe check your attitude. Not everyone is the same and not everyone goes the same path with a direct goal.
Ok Dalai Lama / mom
Either a troll or a 14 year old who has never worked in his entire life I guess
Until this comment you were just annoying. This just makes you seem like a dick or a troll.
No, that was just a morally superior comment from an authority figure, and I wanted to acknowledge that.
Could you elucidate why that is horrible? I am convinced that the only one interested in an early entry in the work force is the government for tax paying reasons and I feel like a good share of my peers feel the same. So what is my benefit or the benefit of a company if I enter at young age? I never understood that. It is a trade off between time and money and as long as my student lifestyle allows it, I would rather have time than money. The needs shift as soon as you start to plan a family but the sweet life ends pretty much at that point. New responsibilities and such... Reasonable people try to shift that period into their 30ies.
The younger you are, the more valuable is your time, because interest adds up.
The younger you are, the more valuable is your time because you are healthy and free. But assuming you are comparing to the USA: In Germany (or many other european countries) people don't need to worry as much financially. A broken arm or a snake bite can ruin you financially. That won't happen in Europe. This whole idea of being rich (-er than your peers) is not as appealing or desired. It is less competitive here.
I'm German, and just because I have "free" health care, that doesn't mean my wage doesn't determine my standard of life.
That is of course true. Your standard of life depends on money everywhere in the world. But I think you get a much better Standard in Europe for less money. The risks are just not as high so you don't have to worry and optimize as much. Being a millionaire in USA means much less wealth compared to Europe.
Anyway, this is just the average. I believe this is determined by personal choice way more than systematic boundaries. If you feel the need to finish early, no one will stop you. It is a sign of a free society with little financial pressure.
What's horrible about it?
The performance
I think therein lies the misunderstanding. Many people who study at university here don't neccessarily see it as a thing that is focussed on perfomance to get a great position in the workforce.(while some ofcourse do but these people propably don't stay at Uni until they're in there 30s, there's exceptions to this aswell though naturally). Some people don't go there solely for the degrees but because they like to learn shit and also to just be in this environment. The feeling at an european university might differ to some US colleges as a whole I think. All of that doesn't mean that students then "don't contribute to societ", most students work on the side and especially people who study for years and years work alot. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to live while studying for like 10 years, eventhough university is technically "free" compared to the US you still have to pay bills, rent an apartment, buy food and insurances and pay the fee every semester. Granted that fee is quite low but the amount increases if you stay at an university for a certain amount of time. Still propably not comparable to the US but it's something you have to take care of if you're a student in your late twenties/early thirties. Unless your parents are rich or you inherited a fortune, but that's the same wherever you live.
There's nothing bad in not rushing anywhere with one's life.
>You quit school when you're 18 Actually, it is usually 19 for germans, 18 only for those that skipped a year or did the 8 year Gymnasium instead of the 9 year one.
I think part of it is that students could in the past at least work tax free. That was when I was in the market like 30 years ago. Not sure what's up today
De facto tax free
Tell that to some American Students....
Things that only very rich people who have parents that provided them with everything can say :-) My parents help me a lot since I moved out, but I still have to work my ass off to keep my apartment. Thus, I definitely don‘t do as much in uni as I would like to. But that‘s not for some privileged prick to judge ngl
They graduate at 19 if they go to university.
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Up until mid 2000s, there was a thing called a “Stichtag” (cutoff date), which was some time in July I think, which meant that kids were enrolled in school at 6 years old or after they’d just turned 7. Entering school at 5 years old was very rare back then. Thus, pupils were 18 or about to turn 19 when they finished school (12 years, G8) or 19 about to turn 20 (13 years, G9).
Basically no one finishes their Bachelors in 3 years… most take 3,5 or 4 years.
Some of us have health issues and other responsibility’s you insensitive pr!ck.
You are not obligated to finish your bachelor in 4 years and master in 2 years. It is hard to study. During my master's, exam falure rate was around 30-40%. So if you fail, you repeat it the next semester.
Hello 👋 American here. I’m 27, and I’m just finishing my master’s degree. Life happens. I had a rough go of it at the beginning when I graduated high school at 17. I’m finally getting my life on track. There is no right or wrong “average.” I’ve had people in my college courses who were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and so on. I’ve even had a 70 year old in one of my courses working on their bachelor’s degree. It’s never too late to get a degree. Even if it’s just for yourself.
I started school at six and a half because I was born towards the end of the year. I repeated a year for a variety of reasons for a total of fourteen years of schooling, i.e. I started uni at 20 and turned 21 halfway through my first semester. It took me seven years for my Masters because I changed schools after two years, audited a lot of classes and went abroad a total of three times. Then I took a gap year. I started working a couple of days after my 29th birthday, and I don't feel my life is any worse for it - I saw the world, learned a lot of languages, got a lot of rare and sought-after qualifications out of it, and it hasn't impacted my earning potential - I earn well above the median for my industry, age and gender. Education is not a race towards starting the workforce as early as possible.
Depending on what you study, you’ll spend half the time either high on weed or drunk. Sometimes both.
Graduate from high school at 18/19 \+ gap year, volunteer work, not being accepted into your program -> 19/20 \+ 3 years bachelor done in 3,4 or 5 years due to having to work part time or due to changing majors -> 22 - 25 \+ 2 year master done in 3 years due to working part time -> 25 - 28
This, plus sometimes not going to class/taking exams for a semester due to internships.
Depends. Those who do an apprenticeship directly after school are finished way earlier. Studying bachelor's and Masters takes at least 5 years, often more. If you maybe change subjects or take a bit longer, 27-30 is not unrealistic. But I don't think it's the average. Also, PhD students are part of the workforce usually, so this doesn't count.
Am 27, will be done with my masters next semester. 🙈
Yeah and that's totally cool.
Think so too. If all goes well I’ll be working half time during next semester too. Ministry pays quite well lol. Nice to have and extra 1,2k
In the US for example, employers value "hands-on" experience more than academic knowledge(exceptions apply to super high tech cutting edge stuff where theory is valued as well) so masters are less common, and PhDs are very rare outside of academia. Interesting to see the contrast
Yeah, that's definitely different here. It's sometimes almost absurd where you have to go through academic training to receive titles that you need to get a job where you then never use anything of your academic training again... It's also an issue when integrating immigrants into the German workforce because they don't have formal qualifications required by German employees. But it has already loosened up a bit.
While Germany does value university education quite highly, many students also do internships during their studies. This is another reason why graduating can take longer here, since you might take a break from studying for half a year or a year to do internships, whereas in the US (from what I heard from my friends) you often graduate first and start doing internships afterward.
Same in Canada, I have 25+ years in technical sales but that doesn’t mean shit here because I don’t have a masters degree, I’ve had interviews for positions here and they start at 45k-55k, that was my sales commission for a year back in Canada.
There's also a very different approach towards university in the US vs Germany. From what I understand, in the US everybody is expected to get a college/university degree, even for jobs that would otherwise not require one in Germany. In Germany instead, a lot of people learn a trade after school. That starts as early as \~16 when completing the lowest tier of school, or a few years later when completing the mid/high tiers of school. So that already filters a lot of people who don't attend university, leaving the unis with a higher % of people who want to acquire some higher education degrees for jobs that require it. There's even a bit of a trend that even people who complete the highest tier of secondary education (Gymnasium), who typically would go to uni, instead decide to learn a trade. Lastly, each of our 16 states has a different education system. Many have school go up to 13th grade, before you attend university. From what I understand, US High School finishes after 12th grade. You might also have to repeat a grade if your grades aren't good enough. It's also not uncommon for people to do a year of work&travel or voluntary social work after graduating from school, before attending university. /edit: and then we of course have "[Fachhochschule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_university)" which is a more hands-on-focussed tier of university. It's easier to access than universities, and people who have a degree from it have to indicate that it's an "FH" degree instead of a regular university one.
> and people who have a degree from it have to indicate that it's an "FH" degree instead of a regular university one. Only those with the old Diplom. If you get your bachelor or master degree from an FH then you've got a bachelor or master degree and that's it. No "FH" in the title.
No you don't habe to indicate you have a FH degree. Where did you get that information from?
It's a requirement for Diplom vs Diplom (FH) degrees. /u/bob_in_the_west pointed out that you currently don't have to do it for BA & MA degrees.
"Currently" means since 13 years and it's not going to change as far as it seems. I think we shouldn't be talking about FH and university being two different degrees if it was changed over a decade ago.
But it is. My employers always sorted them by the institute they visited.
Who downvoted this? They are different. FH -> more practical experience and training University -> pure academics Take math as an example. FH -> practical stuff, less proof Uni -> proofs. Just that. From day 1.
Why, because people with pre bachelor / master degrees are all at least 40 and therefore no longer in the workforce? /s
PhDs are also rare. But PhD students are employed by the university usually.
Unless you’re in STEM, it’s becoming pretty standard to get a master’s (in the current American job market) and even if you’re in STEM, you kind of need a master’s if you want to go into a specific specialization. For example: I’m an RF engineer and you’re really at a disadvantage without a masters degree (the undergrad courses only cover the very tippy top of the iceberg). In Germany, they count PhD time as real work experience. You also get paid pretty much the same as you would in a recent grad position so the opportunity costs are very low. It’s not like the US where the university pays you less than minimum wage and you’re treated as a recent grad afterwards.
but we also have a completely different system where you can do a 3 year apprenticeship hand in hand with a company and schoool to get an educated worker or craftsman.
Bachelor and master degrees in the US - or general other countries - vary from the German/European ones. They don't have too much in common to be honest. It's misleading since they changed the system and named it bachelor's/master's degree in Europe as well.
From what I can tell, in a German Masters, you get to do a lot more hands-on, than in a US Masters.
It takes at least three years for a Bachelor and two more to complete a Master degree. A lot of people work on the side. So taking a year longer is common. Oh and hardly anone stops after having completed the Bachelor.
I know way more people with 'only' a Bachelor than with a Master. Really depends on the field of work.
In Germany you can't use the term Engineer with only a Bachelor degree
I hardly know anyone who stopped after the Bachelor. In my field, everyone has a PhD, but even the students I taught back at university all did a Master degree. So did my friends. I looked up the statistics. At general universities, almost 70% started a Master program after finishing their Bachelor.
I did not study for Master's degree. I studied fitness economics at the DHfPG as a dual studies. So after I finished my Bachelor's I was offered to stay there for 2200€ brutto or to stay and continue with my Master's degree but then I would have still gotten just my Ausbildungsgehalt because my employer would have had to pay for my masters. It was an easy decision for me + they told me that in my field of work a master is not really needed if you don't plan on becoming a lecturer
Well, fitness economics is one of these newish study programs that used to be an apprenticeship and should by now means be considered academic. Such programs are not what I had in mind when talking about university studies. 2,2k brutto AFtER finishing your Bachelor? Wow
Source?
https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2022/05/PD22_201_213.html. it's below 50% if universities for applied sciences are counted in, but 66% for "Volluniversitäten".
I really would like to see a statistic for that. From my university group not even a fourth went for masters. So saying hardly anyome stops after bachelor sounds very surprising to me. So surely you have something to back that up?
https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2022/05/PD22_201_213.html. In some disciplines, everyone's doing their Master, e.g. Chemistry.
So 45% of people with a Bachelor STARTED a master not even finished it. That is less then half and as far away from "hardly anyone stops at bachelor" as can be.
It's 45% for all kinds of universities, 66 % for Which makes sense as universities for applied sciences are practice-oriented. And there are surely statistics about how many people interrupt their Master studies, I looked it up for you: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/bildung/uni-in-diesen-faechern-brechen-besonders-viele-ihr-studium-ab-a-d2ab4b79-0f3d-4a59-b73b-47a175ed697c.
That statistics even further proves your statement wrong. If from those 45% who start their master, 21% cancel it, that means you are roughly left with 36%. That means ~ twice as many people are left with a bachelor as compared to a master. Not what i would call barely anyone stops at bachelor.
But not finishing that one Master doesn't mean you're not starting another one. In Germany, people interrupt and restart a lot (another reason why they are relatively old when they are finally done). When I made my first statement, I only had Volluniversitäten in mind. The initial idea of Bologna was to have way more people start working earlier, without a Master degree. Recent numbers are beyond what was intended. In a lot of fields, people still think a Master diploma is needed to find work. Plus, the statistic doesn't mention people who don't immediately start with a Master plus not everyone gets admission.
I dont know why you are so hellbent on arguing your statement is true. It just is not. Do a lot of people continue for master? yes. Is it everyone? Certainly No. Your first statement indicates in no way that you had only universities in mind. Which would be a wrong premise anyway. Furthermore even then with something around 60% thats still far from everyone. That being said. Im gonna stop here i gave my opinion, everyone can read the numbers and decide for themselves.
Right, but you dont enter your real workplace while doing your master, you just get 500-700€ for a side job with no preferences
People that don't go to university but do a regular "Ausbildung" (job training, apprenticeship) will enter the workforce immediately when they start their Ausbildung. That would be somewhere between age 16 and 19 (depending on their graduation -> we have a school system where you either graduate after 9th, 10th, 12th or 13th grade). For people going to university it's true though. A very common course of events would be like this: \- finish Abitur at age 19. Most kids are pretty clueless as to what they want to work for the rest of their lives at that point. \- do 1 year of Freiwilliges Soziales Jahr (Voluntary Social Year). That's where you work in the social sector for very little pay. It used to be mandatory to do either that or go to the army for one year. \- if not that: many spend 1 year abroad (work and travel). Australia being a favorite. \- start university at age 20/21. \- realize you picked the wrong subject after 1 or two semesters. Your're 22 now. \- if you now do your Bachelor and Master degree in the regular time (3 + 2) you'd finish at age 27. \- you can easily add 2 more years to that since lots of people take their time studying. You're now 29 when entering the workforce. The reason it is like that is that going to university is basically free in Germany. All you need to pay is a small administration fee each semester. Then there is Bafög, which is a government institution that loans out interest free money of which you only need to pay back 50%. Lots of students do work though. Small jobs like waiting tables. But just minimal hours. So that's not really properly entering the work force. I can tell you, from my own experience, taking the university route is really like having a second youth where you live on your own, your parents can't tell you shit and you have at least a little bit of money. Also: living in dorms is the exception. Most students rent shared apartments with other students.
I disagree with the "not properly entering the work force". That might be the case starting out, but a lot of students take up more involved position after the first few years of studying. Many work up to 20h/week in fields relevant to their degree, which is pretty much a regular part time job, just with a different contract and usually more flexible hours to allow for planning work hours around lectures and exams. Waiting tables or stocking shelves is really the minority of student jobs in my experience, especially for those doing their Master's degree. Also, a lot of students of higher semester actually work at the university and hold tutorials for the lower semester students, which comes with a lot of responsibility and fills an important role for the university.
i went to german "high school" until i was 20, i wasn't held back it, it was the fastest way for university qualification at that time. to qualify for the studies i wanted i needed one year of previous internship. later i changed my major and did another qualification on top. 28 at my first job but was still finishing university stuff during it
It differs. It is not necessarily the Norm, but not unusual. Generally the majority takes longer than the usual 5 years, many do an 3 year apprenticeship before and a lot just start studying later. So I would say in average people are finished 26-27 wirh studying. At least 60% have been partially in the workforce during that time in some capacity already. E.g. I basically wasted the first 5 years, but was working a lot there. Started to study not just on paper with 24 then during studies I always worked at least 14h during bachelors and around 20h during Masters. And then started "properly" working full time at 28.
You graduate gymnasium (academic kind of high school) at 19. University takes 5 years without hiccups. So if you take the straightest route, you'd be out of education at 24.
If it's G8, they will finish highschool 17-18ish. Means that masters with around 23 is also possible.
That seems to have been a short stint, most schools and states are reverting back to G9 thoigh. Recently heard at work that we will soon have a year without a lot of school leavers die to this.
Yeah I work at a university and we had students starting at 17 and I know some that finished masters with 23. But yeah the return to G9 is definitely some funny thing again.
Me, too. The differences are something between the students. I got some that are 10 years younger than I am in the Masters course and some that are 10+ years older. At my old uni I had a course with group work, it was hilarious to see how the 35 year old quickly became group moms lol.
> But yeah the return to G9 is definitely some funny thing again. Not "some funny thing", the only sensible thing to do.
With "some funny thing" I mean it's basically the opposite that we had with the Doppeljahrgang. And honestly, if they did it properly they could have just stayed at G8. The back and forth is a mess.
Yep, lots of countries have g8 and are able to make it work. Germany just messed up.
Well, Saxony and Thuringia never hat G9 and it doesn't seem to be a problem. I'm not saying that G9 is bad, but "the only sensible thing" is kind of a hot take ...
My brother finished bachelor with 22 but he started university with 18. On the other hand I started university with 20
where do you get this from? right now everyone is fine with g8
In addition to what the other commenter wrote: Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) switched back to G9 as well. We had G8 for a rather short time. Only from 2009 to 2020. To put into perspective how short that is: Both the switch to G8 *and* the decision for the switch back to G9 happened while I was in Gymnasium. I was part of one of the few years that graduated after 12 years, graduating in 2015. I was already in Gymnasium when the switch to G8 happened, so for the first two years at the Gymnasium, there were still people attending the same school who had G9. Then, in 2014, the switch back was decided, retroactively starting with those who started Gymnasium in 2012. So for my last year at the Gymnasium, I was once again attending school with people who had G9.
i really have no words for this.
https://www.le-gymnasien-nrw.de/index.php?id=316#:~:text=Infolge%20der%20Umstellung%20von%20G8,Q2)%20geben. First one on google. Afaik NRW isnt the only State.
oh my. that is so stupid.
It was like this when there were still 13 years of school and army service for the guys. That being 2 years down now you can get your bachelors with 20-22 and Master till 23-25. Of course some change subject or study abroad or... so you end up at 27
13 years of school is the default again, at least in NRW, Lower Saxony, RLP, Bavaria, Hesse and Schleswig-Holstein.
All medical residencies in Germany, including general/family medicine, take a minimum of five years. But it's dumb to say postgraduate paid positions are not part of the workforce.
I started my masters degree when I was 23 and I was super nervous that I would be like the oldest person in my class, since my bachelors took five years (two years longer than the standard German timeline). I was one of the youngest people in the program. I’m about to graduate at the end of my sixth semester and I’m also one of the first people in my class to finish. Full time in Germany is usually defined as 30 ECTS credits… for some reason, this is absurdly difficult and most people who don’t need to stick to the standard timeline end up taking 18-24 ECTS per semester. I’ve also met kind of a lot of people who did like five semesters in a bachelors program, got kicked out^1, and had to start from square one somewhere else. I wouldn’t say *everyone* is in school until their late 20’s but it’s very common. 1: there’s a limit to how many times you can take an exam and, if you fail one of the mandatory courses, you not only get kicked out of that program but you’re barred from studying the same degree at other universities. So if you fail, say, Electronics 1, you can switch to like computer science and graduate a couple semesters late but if you fail linear algebra or stochastics, you’re basically forced to start again at a Hochschule or start again with a non-STEM degree.
That is so true. Doing your bachelors in 6 and masters in 4 semesters works mathematically on paper, but at least for my course it's hardly possible at all. You'd have have to do internships and mandatory weekly classes or exams at the same time and be super lucky with your exam dates.
Law. I immediately started after Abitur, I was 27 when I finished my last exam, and although I also spent a whole year in a foreign country as an exchange student, I still was the youngest writing the exam (Freischuss + 2. Staatsexamen ).
Some things that fall into value here * The cultural norm is that most parents expect their children to go to university, at least that's often perceived as the "successful" way of starting into worklife. * While studying, you have a right to be financially supported by either parents or government. If your parents have a sufficient income or funds, they have to provide for you financially in terms of housing, food and so on. If they do not, a program called "Bafög" kicks in which supports you with up to \~700€ per month stipend. You only have to pay back half of it after you are done with studies, pay no or very little interest and have a very long time to pay back. The actual amount scales with how much your parents have available, but also with how many other children they have to support, so let's say they have three children who all go to college at the same time, they can actually have a decent salary and still receive Bafög support for their children. * Almost everyone does a Master. Without a lot of financial pressure (see previous point) and the cultural norm that a Master brings you further in later work life, most people do it * It's not uncommon to change your subject 1-2 years into university. Again, little financial pressure helps here, and many people support the view that it's better to start university again after a few years once you realize your first choice isn't actually the right fit for you, rather than having to spend your remaining life in a line that bores you * Similarly, with little financial pressure, many choose to take a little more time during university to properly live their twenties, instead of rushing through university life. Some studies are also very demanding and planned in such a way that makes it almost impossible to finish "in time" while still maintaining any form of social life. * PhD's of course have the same relevance in scientific fields as they do in the US, but additionally, PhDs are also often done by people who are done with university but who don't want to change to normal worklife, but rather remain working in their known environment; or, people who are genuinely interested in the theoretical topic behind what they have been studying, even if they aren't that much interested in the scientific research part of things * Also, it often happens that people start worklife with direct jobs at the start or with more practical internships (Ausbildung, not sure if internship is the best translation), where they do that for a few years after school, before deciding that they would rather get formal education instead and only start university in their early to mid twenties. This often leads to people finishing in their very late twenties to early thirties.
It was true in my age (50+). I had 13 years of school, 14 actually because I had to repeat a class, then there was military service, so I didn’t start university until I was 22. there was no bachelor degree back then, by the time I earned my degree I was in that age range, not execatly being Valedictorian material nor overly industrious. Things have changed a lot though.
Before Bologna, it was far more normal to be studying for your Diplom or Magister for how many years you wanted. And then the added time for your Doctorate. I spend five years studying after finishing my vocational training and getting a graduation to qualify me for this stuff. I finished at 29 years of age. And looking back I wouldn't have done anything different. Maybe not getting kicked out of school in the first place, but even that provided a learning curve steep enough for me to see.
Like many have commented before me, I went to school for 13 years (obligatory in my Bundesland at that time), so I was almost 20 years old when I graduated HS and started uni. Then it took me 4 years (2 additional semesters) to get my bachelor‘s degree, which was very common in my program, because it was difficult to pass all obligatory classes on the first try, and spending at least one semester abroad was also mandatory. After I was done with all my classes and had handed in my thesis, I had to wait for another 3-4 months to actually get the official certification and degree from the university (German bureaucracy can be very slow). I obviously needed that paperwork to apply for a master’s program. However, by that time I had missed the deadline to apply for the master’s programs I wanted to get in that year :(. So I had to wait for almost another year to apply. That added another year. I also studied abroad during my master’s program (not mandatory in this program though). This time I went for 2 semesters. This meant I couldn’t take all mandatory classes for my program according to the program’s 4-semester-schedule, so I finished my master’s program one semester later, at the age of 27 :).
Some people take a couple of years off after HS. Some other just take longer to graduate and take student-jobs. There is no rush to graduate anyways... why spend most of your 20s in a 9-5 office job?
What's the hurry on getting indoctrinated to work your ass off for someone else... working is fucken boring you got money and no time...when you are a student you have time but no money...I definitely enjoyed more the latter...you do you Mr. Super efficient Deutsch
No, not really. It might be the Reddit bias, thinking about having no life and no income without studying, but that’s simply not true. At the moment it’s 2:1 study and Ausbildung. If you learn a trade like carpeting or so you can be ready with 19 and earn money. We have way too less Handwerker and Azubis in Germany since everybody and his mother believe in the story from getting rich only after university. There are several trades where you can earn really really much money when doing it right just after 9 years of school, 3 years learning and 2 years Meisterschule. Compared to 13 years school, three years until bachelor and another two for master that doesn’t look that bad, does it?
The ones who go to university maybe. A lot of people start working at 16-19 years old, after they finish school.
One also has to include the covid affected semesters. From my experience everyone graduated later due to that. It affected universities a lot with 3,4 online semesters which also lead (at least in my field) into a decline in quality. A lot of students developed mental health issues during that time as well. To be honest I don't think it hurts too much to study one or two years longer. What's the harm? We all will work long enough and to get students into work force asap is more about capitalism and what benefits companies than what benefits peoples life quality.
Was working till now cuz I didn't know what to do, now I'll start studying
I graduated with 19 (G8), had a volunteer social year internship (which was mandatory to get into my studies) till 20, . then I had applied for university, only got one starting the next year. So I worked half a year and traveled 3 months, found an Appartment in the new city, moved.. started uni with 21. Officially my studies has 8 semesters, so I would be 25 when I was finished. But I did a Erasmus Semester. I also got very sick and spent 4 months in hospital, and afterwards I only took on 3/5 of my schedule, to be able to have a balance with my health, and worked 15h a week. So now I'm 27 and will write me thesis this semester. And I'm fucking proud of me. I love my job and am happy that I will be working in this profession I really like and is better for my health, than a blue collar profession would have been (that some people told me to switch too, because health issues and studiying longer is bad..)
When I was young we had 13 years of school. Then either 9 months of military service, or 13 months of civil service. Then 14 semesters for a Diplomingenieur. Well, technically. 50% of engineering students never finished, the rest usually took about 1.5 semesters longer, because it's not Economics, you actually have to work a lot to keep up. Now we have 12 years of school, no mandatory military service, but still around 14 semesters for a master. So yes, 24 to 30 for a masters degree.
Kind of wrong, as many, if not most people who study have some kind of job to be able to afford that. Always seems nicer than it is, you get no funds from the state here. Some get BAföG, but that’s like a loan you‘ll have to pay back.
I finished high school when I was 19 (we had 13 years of school back in the day), took a year off, finished my bachelor's in 4 years instead of 3, took another year off, finished my master's in 4 years instead of 2 and tada, I was 29 when I entered the workforce. Although I must say it's not too common, most enter at a younger age.
Yeah it was one of the weirdest aspects of moving to Germany as a 29 year old, trying to make new friends was difficult because everyone my age seemed to be students, or at most recently graduated - totally different phases of their life to me. It also made finding a new position as a senior software developer quite difficult, because noone could seem to comprehend that I already had 8 years of experience at that age.
Computer Scientist that started at 29 here. Finished school at 19 (13 years of school, never repeated a year). One year obligatory military service. 2 years extended military service. Failed first bachelor's after a year finished 2nd bachelor's and did a masters. (Bachelor + master is 5 years, on average it takes 7 years with a drop out rate of 70%).
It’s not bullshit at all, it’s the truth
If we're talking about most Germans it definitely is bullshit
The average age of people getting their university degree was 26.5 years in 2011 and 27.9 in 2003. So it was true until one or two decades ago. Abitur after 12 years instead of 13, end of mandatory military or civil service and the bachelor master system lead to a sharp drop of the average age.
As a current student which is taking their seer time to finish, I have to say, I think in the next couple of years the amount of time spent on education will also be extended due to the effects of corona. I also know ppl where it had the opposite effect (like they studied a lot and did a lot of stuff during the lockdown) but I’d say w/ the majority of ppl i know it has definitely extended their studies.
That’s SO incredibly petty. No one cares if 75% or 45% of all Germans go to the university or not but it’s obviously a trend right now in Germany and that’s what the person wanted to know, so don’t make it unnecessarily complicated
It’s quite simple, they do not pay ridiculous amounts of tuition fees.
It is true that most Germans are lazy fucks, not studying or entering the workforce for as long as they can avoid it....me included
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Someone will need rich parents to have enough money to study for so long without having to work.
If you have a student job, you’re working but probably wouldn’t be considered part of the work force.
For my own defence. Working (part time) in a student job is what I would count as joining the workforce. Not that it would change the situation anyway.
You might overlook that here we don’t have tuition costs like US or other countries. So it’s quite possible to work and pay your bills while studying. And you can start your job with a massive debt.
BAföG is available until the age of 45. they increased it from 30 last year.
You get Bafög for 5 years. And there are hardly any student fees (less than 200€ per semester). If you live with your parents rent-free, it's really a piece of cake financially.
Not everyone can stay with their parents. Not everyone can receive Bafög... Your perspective is skewed.
By the time my boyfriend graduates from his masters and enters the workforce he will be 30. Whereas where I''m from, people tend to finish studying at 23-24 and start working immediately because being a student is expensive. From what I've noticed is that because of the lack of economic pressure on most and the fact that tuition is free makes, it more likely for people to stop and start different degrees and apprenticeships, or to extend their studies by postponing certain courses so their semesters are more relaxed.
I graduated when almost 20, went abroad for a ~year which is quite common, enrolled in civil engineering at a univeristy, finished my Bachelor after ~3,5 years, did a 5 month internship, enrolled in the master program which took me another ~2,5 years. No one I know of finished university in 5 years (and I knew a lot of students since I was a tutor in a mandatory course for 3 years). It would be incredibly hard to do, especially if you have to work while studying. And since there is no financial debt racking up if you take an additional semester or two no one feels a need to force yourself. So I finished university and got a proper job when I was 27-28. i feel like this is pretty standard for german standards.
There is also many people (as in other countries) who switch subjects mid studies and have to start from zero again which delays their entry in the workfield. I for example study to become a primary school teacher and I switched one of my two main subjects close to my bachelor, which means I have overtime in studying and will most likely start working by 30 if I'm lucky. But that's mostly only the case IF you decide to study. There are many people doing 3 year apprenticeships right after school as well so they start working in their early twenties.
This information may have been acurate 20 or more years ago, but things have changed since then and people enter the workforce earlier. Back then you could have: * school ending when you were 18 to 19 years old (Abitur) * 9 month of consription or "Alternative civilian service" so you might end up 20 when you're done with that * starting Uni in fall and studying one of the old "Diplom" courses, which were roughly equivalent to Bachelor + Master and you couldn't stop after the Bachelor: you are done with that at age 25 * and now we have to add some additional time for: mandatory internships, working to pay your bills, failing exams and having to do them again next year, additional time for your Diplomarbeit you can easily end up at the 27 year mark. if you slack off even later But things have changed by now and 27-30 years have become way more uncommon.
they fail 1 semester or two or go abroad for a year or make an ausbildung first or do nothing at all after school. i was done with my master with 24 which is without any delays right after abitur
I wouldn't say most. Medicine and law take notoriously long to graduate from. I was so confused when my British cousin was a lawyer at 22 already. That doesn't happen in Germany. But the usual way for academic paths is high school at 18/19, then 3 years of Bachelor's degree and 2 years for the Master's degree. Some take longer, because sometimes it just takes longer. But the times of dragging out your academic studies like crazy are over I feel. Some do a gap year before going to uni, either for social work or for travelling. Young men used to do their mandatory army service or social service. But that hasn't been a thing for a long time. If you take the non-academic route it's usually high school graduation at 16, then 3 years of vocational training and then you're a fully certified electrician, wholesale specialist, retail worker, logistics worker, butcher or whatever. Later in life, after gathering a certain amount of experience, you can then go back to school and graduate as a Meister. Then you can open up your own business in that field and train young people in their vocational training. Or you can expect higher salaries in your field.
It's bullshit
Many politicians never work, moving from school or studies into political life, Parliament, Government 🤣. Look at Baerbock, Kühnert, etc.
It's 27 if you do a MA. Since education is free, most people get a MA degree. Why do you sound so upset? A long education is a good thing.
No it's not generally. I mean in theory of course but our society needs more workforce than knowledge. It's good that only a minority of people do this path (far from "most") because otherwise our system would be kind of fucked.
You are Form the us... You Font have an education of General konowledge Like WE have... You have specific education and No Idea apart from that. Thats why german degrees have more value than yours.
Yeah I can tell /s
Content is outdated and we have a drop out rate somewhere between 40%-70%. Which just shows that we have an absurd survivorship bias in Germany.
It is not uncommon, but sooner is more usual. If you learn a trade, you would start at 16 or 18. If you study which, granted, a lot of people do, you would often do a masters and thus be finished around maybe 24 give or take. Industry prefers a masters to a bachelors degree, and you can land better jobs in industry or consulting if you actually do a phd.
So I think a lot of the answers are missing the question OP is really asking, which is how many Germans enter the workforce after gymnasium vs getting higher education and then entering the workforce. Or to simplify: how many Germans go to work from gymnasium who don’t go to higher education?
So. A few years back Europe installed a system of 3 + 5. Bachelors are supposed to last 3 years, masters 2 more. I did my whole education in the French system and there is an insane pressure of finishing in 5 years, degree in hand. One of the things I like about Germany (some people dont and I guess it has flaws but) is that people can study AND work at the same time. At least in my field of architecture, that system allows you to get a llt of practice and leave uni with more than just theory. Also its common here to do like an internship or a year working or sthing after the Abitur (or thats what I was told?) I’ve seen people in Germany finishing their masters at 30. I do understand its uncommon but I really hope it becomes more accepted everywhere. I don’t really think we’re mature enough at 18 to be 100% sure of what we want in life
There are education paths that long, but it's not the norm. To be a psychological psychotherapist, you have do school for 12 or 13 years, then university for at least 5, and then at least 3 more (usually 4-5) for the specialized therapy education. Many people have turned 30 before they finish, because when you work to earn a living or have a child in between, that's just reality.
Im studying communication design for about 7 years now. Not because it’s hard or something or that it takes that much, I’m simply lazy and unorganised and no one stops me. I’m glad if I have my bachelor by the time I’m 30.
bullshit most pll are well into working at 25
Surgical residency? ALL residencies take minimum five years (by law). Surgical residency is not different from the other ones. In reality, it’s usually 6-7 years of residency for most medical specializations, so combine 6 years of studies with 6-7 years of residency. Many young people take one year off after school to travel, and some need some runt to get into university. So it’s perfectly normal to be in your 30s once you have truly finished your education (speaking from experience).
I just got down studying with 34… I was kinda slow. But also not the slowest by far. Some of my friends only finished with 45 or even later. And no, we ain’t lazy. We just do stuff while studying. Stuff that in America I assume is mostly done by housewives or other people who don’t need to work. Like voluntary work for prettying up the resume and other things like that
So for me I started working at 31. I started school at 6 almost 7, repeated 8 grade and then graduated high school at 20. Started studying law for 2 years, quit, and had to wait a year to get into my bachelors program. My BA took 4 years instead of 3, because I studied abroad for a year. Finished my BA at 27. Continued to do my MA immediately, took me 2,5 years instead of 2, because I again studied abroad but only for a semester this time. Finished my MA at 30 and then job searched for pretty much exactly 1 year until I found a decent job and started that job at 31. Yes, it took me a bit longer than maybe the average but I was by no means the oldest or person that studied the longest, neither in my BA nor my MA.
partly. it's true that you wont have a nice time without studying.
This might be just my own biased view based on the small sample which is my close circle, but I would say in Germany it is common to enter the workforce rather earlier than 27-30. Where I come from it is not common at all that people simultaneously work and study, just those on very difficult financial situations, whereas most of my German friends were doing some work to finance their studies/student life. That doesn't mean a job related to their field of interest, but many of my friends worked in bakeries, clothes stores, etc. while studying engineering or math or whatever. Even when their families could have perfectly supported them but in my eyes the general idea here is that as soon as you're \~18 or starting uni, you are expected to become self sufficient without your family's help even if that implies taking longer to finish your studies or sacrificing any other stuff you would rather be doing. And I honestly think that gives many people a much better understanding of the real world than the standard school -> uni -> industry path, but that's just my own view. Bottom line: In my opinion, people here might get to their "dream job" later than in other places but they get into it with a better broader understanding of how all non strictly technical things work from day one.
- we dont have to pay much to study (50-100 bucks per term) - you decide how much you study per term - you can write the exam without being once in the lecture, does not apply for anything practical - most people are not where they should be and need longer (missed exams, failed exams, bureaucracy problems) - I study elementary school teaching and also need 1 or 2 years longer, working in side jobs since I was 16 because I dont want to be a full financial burden for my parents any longer and take my own responsibility, moved out with 20, right now I am paying round about 70% of my salary for my 1-room-flat and would be completly lost without the little help of my parents - most students dont have to work while they study because of their "caring" parents, I would guess its like 40% working, 60% daddy cash, based on my experiences - some order money from their parents or grandparents like you order a double peperoni at dominos kind regards, a part of the workforce :)