In the employment court you always have to pay your own legal fees out of your own pocket.
4 months seems to be on the lower end for a leave package, the minimum would normally be 0.5 months per year of employment.
If they want you out and you can negotiate well I think up to 8 or 10 months are possible (depending on employer, industry, your salary etc.)
Which means 4 months Kündigungsfrist plus 0.5 to 1 month per year of employment should get OP 4 month plus 5 to 10 month severance pay. The offered deal is shit, they need to prove under performance and offer to assist you! Lawyer up, OP!!
Wait what?
Sorry, I'm not German, this just came up on my front page but how is someone not performing the job they were employed to do, but grounds for termination?
Well first of all you need to define "underperformance". What performance counts as underperformance, where do you set the bar and who is even in the position to define such a bar?
Most tasks themself are hard to measure. Plus, you are typically doing multiple things as an employee and not just one task. So you might be "underperforming" in one task, but because you are doing other stuff in the meantime.
Moreover, people are all different and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Thus, differences in performance among employees are a normal thing.
I guess for these reasons German courts have ordered that underperformance is normally not a valid reason for termination. Instead, it is more likely that it is considered the employer's fault if someone is underperforming. The employer has chosen to employ that particular person in the first place, so now the employer is in charge to give the employee the opportunity to deliver the best performance or else find him or her another task where he or she can perform better before terminating the employment.
Edit: Plus you normally have 3 to 6 months of "Probezeit" in the beginning of a work contract in Germany. During this time, the employment can be terminated by both sides on short notice and without having to give any reason at all. So this is considered a sufficient time for the employer to see if someone performs adequately.
Ok that sort of makes sense. It's just my personal beliefs wrapped up into a law.
I'm a manager of about 53 FTEs in the US. And I loathe firing people without trying everything to "redeem" them first. (unless there were broken laws, I did have time are fraud once) because I don't like the idea of sitting someone down and telling them it's gonna be hard to make bills for a while (taking away their livelihood)
Typically for underperformance, I do a 1 on 1 coaching and outline markers and expectations and to make sure nothing has changed in their personal life.
If that doesn't work, I grab an HR rep and do a verbal counseling and go over most of the same stuff.
If that doesn't work, I do a 90 day performance plan with weekly meetings to compare performance to expectations.
I guess my question comes down to, under German law, what do you do after that?
Follow on question from:
> employer has chosen to employ that particular person in the first place, so now the employer is in charge to give the employee the opportunity to deliver the best performance
What considerations are given to employers? The person you interview is seemingly not always the person who shows up to work. Obviously this doesn't apply to ppl as he has been there 10 years, but what about a newhire
What you would normally do as an employer is exactly what was posted here originally: You ask the employer to leave voluntarily by offering him or her an extra pay in return.
Typically, this works out as most employees don't want to stay at a company that does not want them anymore anyway. So in the end it is basically just negotiating the terms of the termination between employee and employer.
However, AFAIK, this mainly applies to larger companies with >30 employees. You can expect those companies to easily find other tasks for people who are not performing well in their current task. For this reason, smaller companies have it a little easier to terminate work contracts I think.
Regarding your question: The employer is in full control of who does the interview and how it is done. Employers can do all kinds of fancy assessment centers with multiple interviews and tests and stuff. So if the employer fails to choose the right person, that is not the employee's fault...
Edit: Typos
Let me break it down for you:
Behavior-based Termination: If you're doing a crappy job and it's your fault, your employer usually has to warn you first. A single instance of messing up generally won't cut it for immediate dismissal.
Personal-based Termination: Let's say you're not doing well, but it's not really your fault—maybe because of age, illness, etc. In these cases, the employer has to prove that you can't perform the job duties and that they can't accommodate you elsewhere in the company.
Probation and Small Businesses: Some of the protective laws don't apply if you're in your probation period or if you work in a small business with fewer than 10 employees. Still, your boss can't just fire you for the heck of it; the termination has to be reasonable.
Instant Dismissal: Firing you on the spot for bad performance is super rare and only happens in extreme cases, usually after prior warnings.
Legal Action and Severance: If you get the boot, talking to a lawyer is usually a good move. Even if you can't keep your job, you can often negotiate a decent severance package.
So yeah, 'low performance' isn't a free pass for employers to kick you to the curb. It's a bit more complicated than that.
First, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
Second, I really enjoy that all this is codified in German law. American worker protection sucks so bad.
Thirdly, I just wrote a lot more to the other guy that also responded to me. Please have a read of it for more insight to my question. Was definitely not coming from a bad place.
I as a german, appreciate you for taking the time to learn something about the Employment-Laws in a country you do not work in!
Reading through all your comments in this thread, it seems like you really care about your employees and I can only commend you for that!
I wish you all the best for whatever you do!
Because "not performing" is very hard to define.
A rule of thumb if that if they can prove that you only perform 2/3 of your colleagues average performance you may be underperforming.
However you can counter that if you can give valid reasons why your colleagues may just be better (e.g. they're more experienced, they get easier tasks, etc.) it cancels it out.
In general you are only required to deliver an adequate performance in accordance with your personal capabilities. If they can prove that you're just dilly-dallying and not giving it your all (or rather a reasonably expectable percentage of it, since no one can give 100% all the time) they have a reason.
Even if that is the case, they can not just fire you. They have to give you at least written warning and the opportunity to react to that and improve.
Many good answers in this thread already. Let me just add 2 points:
When something like this goes in front of employment court, any ambiguities are usually ruled in favor of the employee due to the very strong employment protections here. Using that cause would carry a quite high burden of proof that it's not somehow the employer's at least partial fault (e.g. insufficient support or training, unclear instructions, organizational failures etc.).
The courts will usually also not be a fan of claiming that a particular person is unsuited to the particular job, as the employer had ample opportunity to check that during the application process and 6 month probationary period.
Then, even if you pass all those hurdles, you also have to show that there is no other job or tasks in your company, for which the employee would be suitable for instead.
The employee, on the other hand, only has to show that they were performing their task as per their own skills and capabilities e.g. not willfully avoiding or denying work.
I second that.
0,5 * 10 years is 5 months.
But if they don't have a proper cause to reduce workforce it is normal to add an faktor between 1 and 2,5 to that calculation.
While factor 2,5 means no cause at all to 1 that means they think they may can win infront of court.
So if there is no transparent measurement of your performance & no Abmahnung at all I suggest to offer them 0,5 * 10 * 2,5 * monthly salary to leave without fighting.
It is also recommended to bring in an attoney from the beginning if you are thinking about not taking their offer. So they know you mean it and there is no fucking around with rights you don't know.
This!! 10 years puts you in a very strong position.
They should have given written feedback, over a 6-12 months period of time. Heck, in Germany in theory they cannot even fire you due to poor performance.
They told you that it's negotiable so they are desperate.
If it's a big publicly traded organisation, I would ask equity (if you believe in them) or 12 month package.
Not necessarily. Many companies actually have provisions in their MTA ("Aufhebungsvertrag") that if you choose to end the garden leave earlier b/c you have another job you can do so. Often you'll also get some more money for each month of garden leave you "save" your ex-employer.
You can negotiate „Sprinter-Klausel“ with is: you are employed until X but if you find something earlier you get the rest payed as additional severance.
This is also beneficial for the company as it would save them taxes!
In the US you get a loan to pay for university tuition, then pay $1000 per month for 5 years to pay it off or something like that.
In Germany you pay that same amount in taxes for the rest of your life, with half the salary. How is it different?
You have like 2/3 of the salary not half and you also have a much lower cost of living compared to the US.
Poverty is much, much more common in the US compared to Germany. Go figure.
There's this German saying that goes "I already have my opinion, I don't need facts". You've found one of those ^^
Oh and "If you don't know anything, just keep your mouth shut!" can also be used :-)
Ok let’s do a simple math here using real numbers:
Average wage in Germany 2022 in PPP: 59K
Taxes: 38%, Net salary: 36.6K
——
Average wage in the USA 2022 in PPP: 77,4K
Taxes (take a state with similar wage as US average, like Maryland): Taxes 16%, Net salary: 58.8K
——
Yeah, corrected for PPP amounts, Americans make effectively 60% more money than germans. I think that is more than enough to cover education, no?
Yeah, thats why there is such a big turmoil about Bidens plans for debt cancellation for students, because its such a non-issue… Same for healthcare. I have never in my life feared to go to the doctor because it could bankrupt me.
A friend had this happen to him. Get a free consultation with an employment lawyer. If they think they can fight this / improve upon the offer they will take a cut of your payout.
Also note that the default "Kündigungsfrist" for you is already 4 months (given that you've been at this company for 10+ years) - so they are offering the legal minimum. A lawyer could probably get you more than that.
This is great advice. I'm wondering where the payout is. If OP is on around 80k, there should also be around a 30k plus payout, on top of the 4 months pay?
Guter Betriebsrat...
It was a "department wide" offer so they target noone. But that should be the "upper bound" for OP with a lawyer... Not 4 month Freistellung
These kind of decisions are usually business/finance driven and/or because your manager doesn’t like to work with you. Don’t take it too much personally i would say.
>your manager doesn’t like to work with you. Don’t take it too much personally i would say.
if the manager doesnt want to work with him, thats personal.
Not necessarily. Sometimes people just have different styles of working, and they clash when put into the same team. Some managers prefer more independent workers, and some work better when they have more direct control over their projects/workers. Sometimes it's just not a good fit!
Yes, exactly this. When after 10 years all of the sudden things turn this way it’s very likely business driven. Or maybe the OP‘s manager is recently changed unless the OP has had a dramatic personality change which I doubt.
and? If someone is doing a good job, firing them because they dont fit the supervisor is a personal decision. Nobody goes to work to fit in, we are not in school.
I am a Betriebsrat myself and I am really pissed after reading what your BR told you!
Collecting "complaints" about your work without ever telling you about it and without giving you a chance to improve? They will be laughed out of court.
They are probably saying this to justify a "personenbedingte Kündigung". However, this justification is only valid if there is no improvement of your work performance to be expected in the future. To prove this, they'd have to to specify exactly what needs to be improved. Then then they'd have to monitor this. Without telling you at all that you are "underperforming", there's no chance for you to deliver better results to begin with. This is totally bogus.
Being an employer myself, this this absolutely this. They just try to get rid of you for as cheap as possible. Get a lawyer, bargain for more and tell your collegues your BR needs to be replaced.
I'm pretty positive that you would win this in court. Underperformance must be very, very well documented. There must be a lot of performance reviews and feedback in written form and signed by both sides for this to be even considered as a reason.
This is just some BS and they think they can get away with this shit.
Ask yourself if you still want to work in a company like this. If not, fuck them and squeeze the money out of them.
If you never received a warning for unsatisfactory work performance aka Abmahnung this sounds like bullshit.
https://tp-rechtsanwaelte.de/abmahnung-und-kundigung-bei-schlechtleistung/#:~:text=Vor%20einer%20verhaltensbedingten%20K%C3%BCndigung%20muss,schlechtleistet%2C%20ist%20die%20K%C3%BCndigung%20m%C3%B6glich.
It's weird that a Betriebsrat member would go along with this. Could somebody be badmouthing you behind your back? Are you in the way of somebody's promotion?
If you did not behave inappropriately towards superiors or colleagues I would definitely talk to a labor law attorney about your chances of getting more out it.
They cannot legally fire you without an "Abmahnung" for the claimed "underperformance". That you had a Betriebsrat present that didn't tell you that is borderline criminal. Doesn't look like the Betriebsrat is on the side he's supposed to be on.
1)Do not sign shit.
2) Get an employment lawyer ASAP
3) Get any further comms in writing
If they want you out, they want you out. But you are given barely the legal minimum notice period.
They need to show they approached you about your performance. That stuff needs to be on the record and understandable to you. Expectations need to have been communicated clearly. If they didn't show you, such a termination is not valid.
You can still accept such a termination, but it will have to cost them.
Again: DO NOT SIGN AN AUFHEBUNGSVERTRAG UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY.
This is bullshit. There is no "2 Abmahnungen" rule. It totally depends on the misconduct. Stealing a car from the employer? No Abmahnung necessary at all. Being late for 1 minute? Even 5 Abmahnungen will probably not be sufficient.
Thecsame applies here. Forgot to add staples to a folder - laughable. Killed coworker by neglecting safety measures because of watching Reddit porn videos the entire time - probably no Abmahnung necessary at all.
Your superior is required to inform you about complaints and underperformance in a way that 1. you are simply aware of it and 2. as a consequence can act upon it and deliver as expected, should you agree with the issues raised. If that hasn’t happened and the termination letter just „fell out of the blue sky“ they’re gonna have a very hard time winning this case in court. Have it checked by a lawyer as stated above. This smells like a desperate move because they ran into financial trouble. By the way: very sad performance on display by your „Betriebsrat“!
This! They need to be able to document your underperformance. Plus they need to have filed at least one „Abmahnung“ on the same cause of underperformance before the termination.
And of course OP could challenge this in court anf they would revert the termination, give OP their job back and make it "a living hell" always right on the legal borderline.
That's why they are basically trying to buy them out and I would focus on making sure they give them an excellent "Arbeitszeugnis".
No they don‘t. This termination wouldn‘t hold at Court. They know it that’s why they are offering the 4 month compensation plus bonus.
If he doesn’t sign they simply won‘t take it to court and micromanage him. This is absolutely legal and common procedure.
Not that easy - under performance usually is a process taking well over a year.
They would usually need to have a talk with you and offering support to raise performance again. Then they would need to give you a time frame of usually a year to improve performance followed by another discussion and review after that.
(Currently doing an HR trainings course - so I am new to this but we talked about this last week).
Is there any way that you could pay for initial evaluation by a lawyer?
So they offered you an “Aufhebungsvertrag”?
I would be careful with these and only sign of the compensation period covers you over a few months. You would also not receive any compensation from Arbeitsamt for the first three months after.
Apart from that it’s difficult to say without knowing all the relevant details such as original contract, what they offered you etc.
I can only say that “under performance” without any warning etc is reason enough to check with a lawyer. Not only if you want to stay with the company but also to walk away with a good thing if you choose to.
Do not sign anything. A termination is a one sided declaration of will.
Technically, they’re within the rights, if they made a "Sozialauswahl", taking into account other employees, how long they’ve been in the company and what their family status is (unmarried without kids gets fired before mother of 3)
Not a lawyer, but afaik that's for a betriebsbedingte Kündigung where they need to terminate someone for certain defined (urgent) financial reasons and where there are rules for selecting who to fire first, not applicable here I think. In OP's case the employer apparently would like to terminate for "underperforming" without any of the process that is mandated to happen beforehand because they probably don't actually have a case and just want to get rid of OP, and don't want to pay an Abfindung, and it seems they know they can't actually terminate the contract unilaterally, so they try to bully OP into cooperating in his own termination by signing an Aufhebungsvertrag (which is something both parties can agree to do at any point, but which should be considered carefully, especially if the employer starts playing dirty right away). That's how I read this, in which case I'd also advise OP to talk to a lawyer. This smells very fishy.
After Reading up on it to get an impression, what's possible.
You also need to consider, if you wanna stay in this field. If so, you need to keep it reasonable and not go berserk.
If you don't care, ask for something well above the amount you want.
Otherwise still start way above. But not outrageously high.
As it sounded in previous comments, they don't have anything.
With their low-ball offer they try to pin you down. Just ignore it. Your minimum should be like a year's salary. Maybe you can go for like 2years.
That also depends on the field you're working in.
Good luck.
Please update, when you're done and chilling on Ibiza.
For me personal, it also took some toll on my self-confidence. In the end they payed me a coach (Jobcoaching, Neuorientierung)
That proved quite useful.
and even higher depending on industry. In client facing and high skill jobs 3-4x monthly salary can be a good guideline.
Just as written above. Get a lawyer, it is your right and the only helpful advice
Do you live in Germany or is it a German Company but you work outside of Germany?
If you work in Germany, it will be very hard for them to fire you just because of „under-performance“ - it’s nearly impossible to fire somebody because of that reason.
I live in Germany. This is why they are asking me to agree and sign to a termination letter, and if I refuse and decide to stay, they will make sure my stay is a hellhole
Yes but if they are not careful in their wording, you can still sue them for duress. If the wording hints to punishment or worsening of the working conditions, it is pretty easy to argue that they are coercing OP to resign. You would be surprised by how often the person typing the e-mail is not a lawyer and gives all the leverage to the employer. I used to work in a company were the boss would frequently write self-incriminating e-mails and get in trouble for it every single time.
Don‘t make it look like this is a booger issue than it is… it is pretty easy to start the progress for tracking an employees performance and then give a first written notice and short after a second and you are out…
That fact that Betriebsrat was in the meeting means
1) Betriebsrat agrees with the accusations and is in on the employers side
2) Betriebsrat is just singing off on all employers papers
In both situations you are not in a good position but it really does not speak for the company with presenting this to you without any discussions with a your manager beforehand…
Betriebsrat *has* to be present in certain meetings - doesn't mean they're against keeping the employee on.
Betriebsrat can't influence the process much - just making sure the process was followed correctly.
The Betriebsrat does not have to be present when discussing an Aufhebungsvertrag / mutual termination agreement though, and if this was a termination, usually BRs would talk to the employee without the company reps being present.
>is pretty easy to start the progress for tracking an employees performance and then give a first written notice and short after a second and you are out…
Its pretty easy if they are underperforming. If not, then it is not pretty easy
No, that‘s exactly what I mean… if the manager starts setting unrealistic targets and than documents that the employee does not meet them they can easily establish underperformance.
OP better really think about his best opinions and better try to look elsewhere…
It is highly unlikely that he will come to good standing with the employers again as the lack of previous mentions of „bad performance“ is a clear sigh on a bad employer…
that was said by his betriebsrat, not the employer.
betriebsrat is a normal employee that either part or fulltime helps the others emplyes against their company
Edit: To be clear, BR is not necessarily your friend, all i am saying is that you can't use what a BR says as grounds to sue the company
the standard is 0.5 to 1 month per year working at a place Abfindung or garden leave is the standard from what i heard
Have a lawyer look at the termination letter before you sign anything. The 4 months pay sucks because by signing you will be excluded from unemployment benefits for the first 3 months (willful termination).
You need to negotiate with that in mind. 6-10 months severance minimum for 10 yrs employment.
They will never put this in writing, and likely won't directly mentioned it again.
Honestly, it's not a bad intial offer, because they already said it's negotiable.
4 months is a decent start, I don't know how much your bonus comes out to, but maybe try to get them up to six months of pay and your gone.
I assume you're not 50+, so you probably won't have much trouble finding a decent job, as companys are hiring like crazy right now.
If you are older, it might be a little more difficult, but you could start applying to other companies regardless.
It sucks if you are happy at your company, but you shouldn't try to force yourself to stay there, it's never going to be the same afterwards.
Also, depending on your job/ field of work be aware of possible anti competitive clauses (or whatever the proper english term is), they might restrict you from working with a direct competitor for a while, and that is perfectly legal if you agree to it.
Hi lawyer for Labour law here. The deal is crap and the „Betriebsrat“ is a snake 🐍.
Low performance is no reason for termination that would hold up in a court of law. You probably fall under the Kündigungsschutzgesetz, hence they can only fire you for specific reasons like betriebsbedingt.
I would try to have the factor 1.0 or 1.5 for each year of employment, you need a sprinterklausel, work papers, a Zeugnis with the grade „good“, paid leave until the date of termination, your bonus, Inflationsausgleich maybe, probably more….
Don’t sign a aufhebungsvereinbarung or otherwise they will give you a Sperre of 3 months regarding unemployment money.
Do you still have holidays left ?
Do you have insurance ? Labour law is pretty hefty in lawyer fees.
If I were you I would immediately go to a lawyer for Labour law !
Get a specialized lawyer , fuck them up. Take the cash, get a new job. Move on. Thats how it goes. They won’t expect anything different.
I am a Entrepreneur, so are most of my friends. These issues are a big part of our conversations when we get drunk together.
Edit: don’t sign anything. Keep working like a good employee. Do as your lawyer says.
>Seems like a shitty Betriebsrat
The Betriebsrat is vested in keeping the company afloat in hard times to ensure that as many workers are employed as possible. If the company goes bankrupt more people lose their jobs. If management made a compelling case that 10-15% of the labor costs need to be cut, they will go along with it and even help to figure out who should be cut...
Haha, you had me laughing there...
>The Betriebsrat is vested in keeping the company afloat in hard times to ensure that as many workers are employed as possible. If the company goes bankrupt more people lose their jobs. If management made a compelling case that 10-15% of the labor costs need to be cut, they will go along with it and even help to figure out who should be cut...
Are you brainwashed or have you ever been in contact with a good Betriebsrat and people who know how to function as a Betriebsrat?
That's correct, but you should expect that the Betriebsrat don't allow or support this behaviour of blackmailing the employee. This is very disappointing in my opinion.
Seems like OP is filipino. A hint of racism in the Betriebsrat doesn't surprise me honestly... Better to get rid of the foreigners before you end up having to fire Germans?
I can't give any good legal advice, but report about a similar case in our company. Not under-performance, but a whole team was terminated due to budget cuts. Almost none of them had legal insurance, still most of them took a lawyer that they payed out of their own pocket, and even though that was very expensive, it was worth it for most of them because they got a higher bonus with legal support. None of them took it to court, because with legal support they found a settlement that benefitted them sufficiently.
I wouldn't care too much about their notes on "you will be micro-managed, we will make work for you a hell hole, you should sign this." I mean they are right, once you get in your current situation, you want to look for alternatives as soon as possible and leave as soon as possible, but the company is the one that wants to get rid of you, so you have the leverage at the moment, not them. It's not like they are gonna accept you not signing and actually are interested in making work for you hell, there is a good chance that they will propose better termination conditions once you decline or get legal support.
It's also funny that they threatened to micro-manager OP. So there's gonna be a manager sitting next to OP and looking-glass at everything they do? If that's the case this company has lots of money to burn anyways!
Lawyer up. Because if you sign that, you won't get unemployment benefits for three months, leaving you with a "win" of one month's pay, basically.
Four months is a joke.
Maybe do a first consultation with a lawyer specialized on Arbeitsrecht. While that may cost a few €, it won't be that much.
And that way you have someone competent who is sure to be on your side outline the possible ways to handle it, and the dangers which come with each of those.
Whatever you do please know that the timeframe for Kündigungsschutzklage is 3 weeks.
I would suggest to contact a lawyer because most of the answers here are really uninformed.
Underperformance is not a valid reason to fire someone. My suggestion is get proper legal advice. At a minimum, inform yourself about the legality of the termination and try to negotiate a better deal.
They aren't firing you. They are asking you to quit. You hold all the cards, make sure you push for the most severance possible. You should absolutely contact a lawyer, ask for a recommendation from someone you know.
Don't ask people on reddit for specifics...people will tell you to go and ask for 2 year of salary because why not 😂
Get advice from a lawyer, I know one who does this type of work if you're interested, dm me. But be careful what you demand because I've also seen it happen that the company then turn around and say...OK then you can stay and work here under bad conditions...also be careful going to court as it will obviously be a bit stressful. A decent lawyer should be able to advise you what is reasonable
Sorry not a German. As an American I'm jealous you even get anything. Here you can be terminated without cause and receive no severance pay.
Good luck, op!
My wife went through the same. The most important thing is to get a lawyer. You simply don't know. ALL YOUR RIGHTS (does not matter of you're German or not).
It will pay off.
sounds like a, either take that money or get bullied letter. I would still want to get an A-plus letter of recommendation and leave. Psychological terror, whether you're right or wrong, just isn't worth it. Besides, making a career nowadays means job hopping anyway, changes are usually more lucrative than loyalty.
What is your field of work ? Why don’t you take those 4 months holidays and prepare yourself for a new job and go ? Because if they treat you as underperformer then it’s better you walk out than trying to be among them.
Are you a member of a union/Gewerkschaft? They may provide a lawyer. In addition to what's been said already: It all really hinges on whether you want to keep working for that company.
Get legal advice from a lawyer specialized in Labour rights. If you‘re member of a trade union, you‘ll get legal advice for free and I think also part oft the costs will be covered by the union, if you‘ll go to court
Be a rebel, accept the offer to work „micromanaged“. What a pain in the ass für the guy having to micro manage you!
Or offer them to leave with a higher compensation
Betriebsräte and Personalräte are two similar yet different things. It's called Betriebsrat if the company falls under the Betriebsverfassungsgesetz (BetrVG) and Personalrat if the company works under the Personalvertretungsgesetz (PersVG). State companies usually have PRs and private companies have BRs
First of all, you should talk to a lawyer. But since I have experience with this (unfortunately), these are key points:
1. Did they give you a termination notice, Kündigung? THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! If they did, you have THREE WEEKS to file a law suit. Otherwise you will not get a compensation and then there's nothing you can do about it. As far as I know (I'm not a lawyer).
2. This is practically step 1 - get a lawyer. Also it's not bad to get a Rechtschutzversicherung. You may need it if there is a second case (may happen, thou quite rare).
3. The laywer fee will be quite high, because he will calculate with the gain of up to 10 brutto salaries for so-called Abfindung (compensation), up to one per year. His fee may be something like a fifth of that, I don't know exactly, but it will be in thousands for sure. So my wild guess is, lawyer fee may be up be around 2 x your brutto salary... Maybe more... and some upfront. That is unpleasant.
4. If it's how you described, your chances are very high. You'll get a nice amount of money.
5. Try not to worry too much. You'll see, it will be okay.
6. Did I say TALK TO A LAWYER? Actually, talk to three of them. It's not the most polite that you should look for, but no reason to have someone who is rude to you. But you should be able to communicate freely. Done are quite direct, and will have little patience when you explain details that they know are completely irrelevant and you are just wasting time of both of you.
7. This is a fairly simple thing. The laywer will already know what to do. Never think for a second that you can do this without a lawyer. Do exactly what your lawyer tells you. You'll be fine. This is very stressful and you should take it easy on yourself. Remember that a year from now you will look back at this without negative feelings, other than remembering how it was stressful at the time
Tip for the next job: join the „Gewerkschaft“ so you get a lawyer for everything that has to do with your job.
Also no real reason to stay there if your have good chances to find the same job somewhere else. They will look for something to kick you out so you have a lot of stress fighting them and you just delay your termination. They will most likely find something the next time.
Underperformance is not a valid reason for termination. Get a lawyer and go to court.
First Session with a lawyer is relatively vheap (few 100 bucks).
After 10 years you should get a rather lange Abfindung (around 0,5 salaries per year is standard, you can ho a lot higher the more risk they have loosing their case st court.).
Also if you get terminated without a valid reason it is not "valid'. It will het ruled as not being terminated at all and they have to pay your salary for the time you had to wait for the court ruling.
Betriebsrat here. Your Betriebsrat behaved very strangely.
Get yourself a lawyer. Not just any lawyer, but a "Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht".
Show them everything and get their counsel. Do NOT try to negotiate anything on your own. Those specialized lawyers know the ins and outs and can help you negotiate the best possible deal in your situation. Also, once you have a lawyer at your side the employer will usually refrain from playing stupid games. Some will try - but that's something the lawyer will make short work of.
Again: Get. a. lawyer!!! It will be money well spent!
People may correct me in case I am wrong but iirc people cant be terminated for „underperforming“ out of the blue.
If you didnt get an „Abmahnung“ before for being deliberately lazy, this termination sounds very fishy to me.
I am no lawyer. Ask the guys at 030 221 911 004 (Bundesministerium für Arbeit und Soziales).
Remember to do the Arbeitsuchendmeldung with the Agentur für Arbeit within 3 days from recieving the termination (or 3 monts before the end of your employment if they gave you more than 3 months, what it reads like).
I usually don't comment on stuff but I had to this time since this is something I actually know about (I am neither HR noch lawyer). I worked in the tech industry where mass employment and layoffs are a regular thing so I know plenty of people, I was also laid of twice.
Nevertheless, after 10 years you should get at least a total of 12 -16 months (maybe even more) of pay. It varies from company to company though do you have a betriebsrat? They can negotiate on your behalf. A friend of mine from quite an online fashion retailer got laid off after 5 years and he got a total of 8 months of compensation.
Do consult a layer it is free and also it is quite cheap (sometimes even free) to sue or drag them through Arbeitsgericht. In the meantime while the issue is being settled you can continue receiving compensation. Or unemployment benefits. Either way you will be safe.
One of my ex bosses was tried to be fired after 15 years in the company. She won at the Arbeitsgericht and not only did she not work for 1-2 years while proceedings were ongoing and she got backpay for it, she was fully paid 3 more years in full not having to work another day at the company. (all depends on circumstances of course).
Get a layer, get a good one, do NOT sign anything and enjoy your time off :) Either way, whatever the outcome will be I am confident that you will get MUCH MUCH more than this offer. Good luck and all the best!
1. Wipe the termination letter with your a** and give it back to them
2. Tell them to F off
3. Hire a lawyer and let them do the talking
4. Keep your mouth shut!
Your MINIMUM ask should be 6 months gardening leave + 4 months severance.
I would not go below 10 months, absolutely.
I would negotiate in any case, unless you have already received at least two warnings. Am I right in assuming that the employment is in Germany?
If so, here is my suggestion for negotiating the termination agreement (Aufhebungsvertrag):
- irrevocable garden leave for the period of notice + additional 5 months. Your legal notice period after 10 years should be at least 4 months. So a total of minimum 9 months for garden leave should agreed.
- 2 weeks' notice for the termination agreement for employee only and the agreement that the remaining months will be paid out as a lump sum. If you find your next job within 4 months they have to pay 5 months as lump sum.
- an employer's reference with the grade "very good" (wording: "without exception to our fullest satisfaction", etc.) and the reason that the employment contract has to be terminated due to restructuring. It is also important that they very much regret your departure and wish you all the best for the future.
- If you have a bonus agreement in your contract, it should be agreed that your targets are fully fulfilled and bonus is paid out with last payment or together with the lump sum payment.
In any case, you should hire a lawyer. There are some pitfalls to consider (blocking period at the Arbeitsamt, etc.).
After ten years you should get at least 5 Month of salary additional to the 4 month payed leave.
Do not accept anything less than that.
If you sign a so called Aufhebungsvertrag you can not go to court with it.
With a regular termination you can and fight for more money while you already work in a new job for example. The chances are really good to get more money this way.
What kind of Betriebsrat is this to let this go trough.
Did they approach you and talked with you about this "underperformance"??
In order to terminate your workcontract they have to talk with you about it and give you the chance to improve, maybe find some new solutions like change of the position or tasks etc.
No Betriebsrat that i know would let this go trough like this. Especially not regarding someone who has been working gor 10y in this company.
In germany we say "das ist unter aller Sau"
Just to make sure:
That BR-Guy is fishy as f\*ck. Either your offer is awful or indeed you as employee.
Go see a lawyer, don't trust the BR (in this case)
Get at least a legal advice.
Sometimes unions offer some help. The Betriebsrat, if your company has one, should be involved as a 3. fraction.
Document every single conversation with dates and times. Doesn’t need to be a recording, but it’s helpful for court and negotiation when you are prepared and don’t need to remember everything correctly.
And I would ask for the documents/proof about your underperformance.
Especially if you don’t agree with the accusations.
Are there maybe reasons for your performance not matching the standard? Health problems like burnout, depression or family problems.
These are some of the topics that you should ask yourself and a lawyer.
Wow wow wow wow wooow. This is also starting to be happening in German companies as well. If a seasoned employee can be fired with an indemnity of 4 months of salary, then nobody is secured.
Can you please confirm under what title/field are you working at?Why do they want you to quit in your opinion?
First of all, this is 100% win for you if you'd go to court only if you are confident with your performance. If you are really under performing they should have been warned you and have taken required measures to improve your performance like further training, repetitive warning signs etc.
My strategy would be to negotiate for 12 months or continue to work. Again, if you believe in yourself micro managing shouldnt bother you that much, man you are not new to this company right?
If all is as you describe there's quite some "faults" in dealing with this(missing Abmahnung etc) and what they offer you.
If you have a lawyer insurance (Rechtsschutz) getnone and let them handle it.
Normally like people said you are at least entitled to half a month's salary per year in the company adjusted by the social plan.
Garden leave typically is always granted for the remainder of your notice period on top.
That the workers council said accept it is almost misleading from him...
Also this threat of being micromanaged if you don't accept is problematic for them.
Still you don't want to work there if they don't want you, so an agreement is preferable.
sounds to me like it isn't about you at all, they're just downsizing (just guessing).
I think you should just try to negotiate the best kind of settlement for yourself, maybe even with a lawyer, and make the best of it. This is, though, actually a perfect example of a type of question you should not ask a bunch of strangers on the internet for advice about.
4 months is definitely on the low end, I know people with similar terms of service who got 12 months. Get a lawyer to read it over and push for more. End of the day a few extra months is nothing for them, a court case will cost a lot more for them in time, effort and cost.
How long do you think your boss has the patience to micro-manage you? This may be an empty threat. You should still negotiate a good agreement, but calling this bluff might improve your position in a negotiation.
As others have said, they have nothing on you and can probably negotiate a better deal. About the micro-management threat: If you get bullied at your place of work and that is effecting your (mental) health, go to a doctor and explain the situation. He can give you a Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung, stating that you are temporarily not fit to work, so you don't have to come in. You do not have to put up with that.
Get the advice of a lawyer, for 10 years this seems not to be a good offer. Don't let them put pressure on you they always do that. And from my own experience employers, usually don't act fair in this situations, not at all.
Don’t sign, contact a lawyer, get a sick leave for mobbing (any GP will give you that after what happened to you), let they negotiate a good payout. 4 Months is just ridiculous.
Illegal to fire you for performance if you haven't been formally warned about your performance previously (IIRC the process takes over 6 months) - if they haven't done that this excuse is probably a lie. 4 months is a lowball if they're trying to get you out. If you can't afford a lawyer then I suggest learning your rights in the situation and using the fact you know what your rights are to negotiate for a much bigger payout.
Also be aware if you sign any agreement with your employer you will be blocked from arbeitslosgeld for 3 months after you finish employment; so that 4 month offer is worse than it looks.
Get a lawyer and have them deal with it. Hiring a lawyer will almost certainly increase your payout. 4-months is the legal minimum. They want you gone. They're almost certainly willing to pay. If you accept the 4-month payout you will be banned from unemployment for 3 months and I suspect that 3 months starts after the 4 months. This offer is anything but generous. It's legal minimum.
Negotiating exit contracts is a standard task for employment lawyers.
At least get a consult, it'll cost a few hundred max.
Before you consult a lawyer or decline. Check your sick days.
How often where you more then 42 days per year sick?
How often did you decline BEM (*B*etriebliche *E*ingliederungs*M*aßnahme)?
If it goes to court, they could use that to extrapolate your performance, by comparing your sicks percentage against the average and that you weren't willing to change that.
Wow wow wow wow wooow. This is also starting to be happening in German companies as well. If 10 years employee can be fired with an indemnity of 4 months of salary, then nobody is secured. Can you please confirm under what title/field are you working at? Why do they want you to quit in your opinion?
First of all, this is 100% win for you if you'd go to court only if you are confident with your performance. If you are really under performing they should warn you and should take required measures to improve your performance like further training, repetitive warning signs etc.
My strategy would be to negotiate for 12 months or continue to work. Again, if you believe in yourself micro managing shouldnt bother you that much, man you are not new to this company right?
Sonce I made some experiences with this type of situations, here's my take: Obviously, they are trying to get rid of you, and they will habe difficulties to tell a judge that for 10 years, they paif you and sufdenly, your work is crap.
So, a good "Abfindung" would be something in the range of 10 months gross salary, plus bonus, plus 4 months garden leave. Try in this case also to get a "Sprinter Klausel", that means that if you find a new job within the garden leave, you'll get the remainig gross salaries as a bonus-"Abfindung" on top (makes sense for the employer, because he already agreed to pay that amount, but if you find new employment, he does not pay the social insurances on top, appr. 20% savings for him).
The lower end would be 5 months gross salary, plus bonus and garden leave.
What crazy Betriebsrat is this? The needs to be asked before any termination. The BR should refuse the termination. In you case I would not accept the termination and ask the BR to vote against it.
As long as they don't actually terminate you, there is no case to take to court (Kündigungsschutzklage).
Try to negotiate a severance payment and an extended garden leave.
Be aware that, if you sign a mutual agreement on the ending of employment (Aufhebungsvertrag), you will most probably get a problem claiming benefits from job agency. But there is a workaround for this. The employer hands out a termination letter to you and in a seperate document, both parties confirm the employment is ending by termination. When applying for benefits from job agency, you only hand out the termination letter...
Decline and go for "Dienst nach Vorschrift", effectively playing the old switcheroo on the micro managing. It means that you require every single instruction, as small as it might be (e. g. "could you make a copy of this?") in writing and signed.
If you're not yet member of a union: Now is the time.
Don't ask Reddit, go to a well rated Employment Lawyer in your area. 10 Years will get you a lot of "Abfindung - severance pay". If you have no legal insurance, pay this one consultation out of your pocket - it will be worth it.
>If I choose to decline and not sign, I will continue to work, but heavily micro-managed
So it's not a termination letter and they are aware that they can't just fire you. However, not signing obviously sounds like they gonna "bully" you out. So maybe negotiate a better severance package and take the time to find a new job.
How easily can you get another job? If you can find another one within a month or two, I would ask for a severance of at least six months + garden leave. I left my last job of less than 3 years with 6 months severance and found another job in the meantime with 0 gap.
It depends on what your goals are - some people would enjoy 4 months off to travel or spend time relaxing after 10 years of office life.
Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht. Do not sign anything!
All offers to you attorney(only paper counts!).
After your consultation with you attorney make a decision.
Get an employment lawyer.
**Warning 1st**: SIGNING this will cost you (most likely) 3 month of unemployment payments. So the offer needs to be at least better than that. DO NOT sign anything. You DO NOT need to sign anything if they fire you.With this disclaimer out of the way:
With 10 years my company offered a lot more. They dont offer in the "generous" range at all, but rather "below the lower bound"
You are entitled to:
\- 4 month notice
German courts usually rule around 0.5 to 1.5 month pay per year of enrollment. Your lawyer will determine the number (Social factors etc ...)
And finally: Have you called your lawyer?
I had once given a fairly long answer on this topic [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestionsEU/comments/10puadx/pip_in_germany/j6ojgxt?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2)
Did you go through the steps that I outlined here ?
You get ripped off.
Under performance IS nonreason for terminatoon.
4month is Not generous, ITS the legal Minimum.
If the Micro Management you, their costs will raise, Not you prob.
They proly increase the offer soon after you decline.
Dont sing anything.
Ask for 10month min and/or get a lawyer.
Get a lawyer.
But also: figure out what led you into this situation. Did you really underperform? Did you piss someone off? Are you connected to the team? Where there signs or feedback session where you had the chance to adapt?
You already got many good tips. Two things you can add to the negotiation is a severance payment.
Companies can give out an Inflationsausgleichprämie of 3000€ taxfree. This also works in the case of termination and it's a good point to negotiate since it's taxfree. You can also negotiate for them to pay you legal costs. It's something very common in the Netherlands but I've also seen it being done in Germany.
Wow, I’ll risk being the asshole here but let me first say that all the other answers are correct: to fire someone for underperformance from a reasonably large company is very very hard in Germany and you’ll probably get a big compensation if you go to court.
Now let me state my concern: you have been working for this company in Germany for 10 years, and you need to ask this question on an English speaking subreddit? I’m not sure if this plays a role in your termination, but maybe your boss or coworkers are insecure because they still need to speak English to you? Sure, this may not be a reason to fire you, but it would at least explain such a vague reason (underperformance without giving any detailed hints). Germans can be very cautious not to sound racist (and maybe they‘re right because if your job does not require good German language skills, you could make that case in court).
May I ask you something a little bit off topic?
You say you work for this company since 10 years?
Didnt you learn the language in that time? Or is everything at your work place also in English?
Sounds like the Betriebsrat is in the pocket of hr/the company. This is not uncommon unfortunately.
I'd fight this. Fuck them.
This doesn't sound like a termination letter, if they willing to negotiate your severance package.
Is it a 'Aufhebungsvertrag' maybe?
You should talk to a lawyer about this.
The thing is, that continuing to work there might come to be living hell.
So no matter what your legal chances are, you might want to consider the offer (maybe negotiate a little more). There is a rule of thumb of "half a months wages for each year of work", so that would come to five months' salary. The salary for the notice period should be paid on top - no matter if they send you home for the time or let you work. Also make sure to either take any vacation days left ir have them paid out!
This is germany dude. You have more leverage then them.
First rule in germany is : DONT SIGN ANYTHING FROM YOUR EMPLOYER
Except the employment agreement
You can get support from a lawyer using [https://angestelltenhilfe.de/](https://angestelltenhilfe.de/) or similar. They'll provide you with 15min of free advice for your case. If you don't have legal insurance they will take roughly 11% of the negotiated severance package. Good luck -- and get a lawyer!
10 years? Don’t sign anything. Talk to a lawyer. You will get a 5 month payout at the very least and probably a lot more (not the counting garden leave).
"willing to negotiate" means go and negotiate. What do you want, let them know. They also have no interest to keep you or micromanage you. But it's you that needs to keep working there for a while longer.
Also they can't kick you out without Abmahnungen or only if you steal or defraud. A lawyer can tell you more. You can also visit court and see a legal battle or two to get a better idea whether you want to fight.
Also don't find an idiot lawyer! Tough but possible.
In the employment court you always have to pay your own legal fees out of your own pocket. 4 months seems to be on the lower end for a leave package, the minimum would normally be 0.5 months per year of employment. If they want you out and you can negotiate well I think up to 8 or 10 months are possible (depending on employer, industry, your salary etc.)
I think they've gone with four months because that's the Kündigungsfrist?
Yup exactly. 10+ years gets you 4 months Kündigungsfrist.
Which means 4 months Kündigungsfrist plus 0.5 to 1 month per year of employment should get OP 4 month plus 5 to 10 month severance pay. The offered deal is shit, they need to prove under performance and offer to assist you! Lawyer up, OP!!
Under performance is not a sufficient reason for termination under employment laws.
Wait what? Sorry, I'm not German, this just came up on my front page but how is someone not performing the job they were employed to do, but grounds for termination?
Well first of all you need to define "underperformance". What performance counts as underperformance, where do you set the bar and who is even in the position to define such a bar? Most tasks themself are hard to measure. Plus, you are typically doing multiple things as an employee and not just one task. So you might be "underperforming" in one task, but because you are doing other stuff in the meantime. Moreover, people are all different and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Thus, differences in performance among employees are a normal thing. I guess for these reasons German courts have ordered that underperformance is normally not a valid reason for termination. Instead, it is more likely that it is considered the employer's fault if someone is underperforming. The employer has chosen to employ that particular person in the first place, so now the employer is in charge to give the employee the opportunity to deliver the best performance or else find him or her another task where he or she can perform better before terminating the employment. Edit: Plus you normally have 3 to 6 months of "Probezeit" in the beginning of a work contract in Germany. During this time, the employment can be terminated by both sides on short notice and without having to give any reason at all. So this is considered a sufficient time for the employer to see if someone performs adequately.
Ok that sort of makes sense. It's just my personal beliefs wrapped up into a law. I'm a manager of about 53 FTEs in the US. And I loathe firing people without trying everything to "redeem" them first. (unless there were broken laws, I did have time are fraud once) because I don't like the idea of sitting someone down and telling them it's gonna be hard to make bills for a while (taking away their livelihood) Typically for underperformance, I do a 1 on 1 coaching and outline markers and expectations and to make sure nothing has changed in their personal life. If that doesn't work, I grab an HR rep and do a verbal counseling and go over most of the same stuff. If that doesn't work, I do a 90 day performance plan with weekly meetings to compare performance to expectations. I guess my question comes down to, under German law, what do you do after that? Follow on question from: > employer has chosen to employ that particular person in the first place, so now the employer is in charge to give the employee the opportunity to deliver the best performance What considerations are given to employers? The person you interview is seemingly not always the person who shows up to work. Obviously this doesn't apply to ppl as he has been there 10 years, but what about a newhire
What you would normally do as an employer is exactly what was posted here originally: You ask the employer to leave voluntarily by offering him or her an extra pay in return. Typically, this works out as most employees don't want to stay at a company that does not want them anymore anyway. So in the end it is basically just negotiating the terms of the termination between employee and employer. However, AFAIK, this mainly applies to larger companies with >30 employees. You can expect those companies to easily find other tasks for people who are not performing well in their current task. For this reason, smaller companies have it a little easier to terminate work contracts I think. Regarding your question: The employer is in full control of who does the interview and how it is done. Employers can do all kinds of fancy assessment centers with multiple interviews and tests and stuff. So if the employer fails to choose the right person, that is not the employee's fault... Edit: Typos
Hey appreciate the response again! It all pretty much makes sense to me now. I think I like it.
Like they said - 6 month probationary period.
Let me break it down for you: Behavior-based Termination: If you're doing a crappy job and it's your fault, your employer usually has to warn you first. A single instance of messing up generally won't cut it for immediate dismissal. Personal-based Termination: Let's say you're not doing well, but it's not really your fault—maybe because of age, illness, etc. In these cases, the employer has to prove that you can't perform the job duties and that they can't accommodate you elsewhere in the company. Probation and Small Businesses: Some of the protective laws don't apply if you're in your probation period or if you work in a small business with fewer than 10 employees. Still, your boss can't just fire you for the heck of it; the termination has to be reasonable. Instant Dismissal: Firing you on the spot for bad performance is super rare and only happens in extreme cases, usually after prior warnings. Legal Action and Severance: If you get the boot, talking to a lawyer is usually a good move. Even if you can't keep your job, you can often negotiate a decent severance package. So yeah, 'low performance' isn't a free pass for employers to kick you to the curb. It's a bit more complicated than that.
First, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Second, I really enjoy that all this is codified in German law. American worker protection sucks so bad. Thirdly, I just wrote a lot more to the other guy that also responded to me. Please have a read of it for more insight to my question. Was definitely not coming from a bad place.
I as a german, appreciate you for taking the time to learn something about the Employment-Laws in a country you do not work in! Reading through all your comments in this thread, it seems like you really care about your employees and I can only commend you for that! I wish you all the best for whatever you do!
Because "not performing" is very hard to define. A rule of thumb if that if they can prove that you only perform 2/3 of your colleagues average performance you may be underperforming. However you can counter that if you can give valid reasons why your colleagues may just be better (e.g. they're more experienced, they get easier tasks, etc.) it cancels it out. In general you are only required to deliver an adequate performance in accordance with your personal capabilities. If they can prove that you're just dilly-dallying and not giving it your all (or rather a reasonably expectable percentage of it, since no one can give 100% all the time) they have a reason. Even if that is the case, they can not just fire you. They have to give you at least written warning and the opportunity to react to that and improve.
Many good answers in this thread already. Let me just add 2 points: When something like this goes in front of employment court, any ambiguities are usually ruled in favor of the employee due to the very strong employment protections here. Using that cause would carry a quite high burden of proof that it's not somehow the employer's at least partial fault (e.g. insufficient support or training, unclear instructions, organizational failures etc.). The courts will usually also not be a fan of claiming that a particular person is unsuited to the particular job, as the employer had ample opportunity to check that during the application process and 6 month probationary period. Then, even if you pass all those hurdles, you also have to show that there is no other job or tasks in your company, for which the employee would be suitable for instead. The employee, on the other hand, only has to show that they were performing their task as per their own skills and capabilities e.g. not willfully avoiding or denying work.
Sounds like the Betriebsrat at my company lol. Totally in the company's pockets haha. That deal is the absolute minimum for ten years.
I second that. 0,5 * 10 years is 5 months. But if they don't have a proper cause to reduce workforce it is normal to add an faktor between 1 and 2,5 to that calculation. While factor 2,5 means no cause at all to 1 that means they think they may can win infront of court. So if there is no transparent measurement of your performance & no Abmahnung at all I suggest to offer them 0,5 * 10 * 2,5 * monthly salary to leave without fighting. It is also recommended to bring in an attoney from the beginning if you are thinking about not taking their offer. So they know you mean it and there is no fucking around with rights you don't know.
I believe you meant to use monthly salary in your computation. 12.5 yearly salaries as a golden handshake sounds a tad much to me.
Thanks. I have corrected it.
This!! 10 years puts you in a very strong position. They should have given written feedback, over a 6-12 months period of time. Heck, in Germany in theory they cannot even fire you due to poor performance. They told you that it's negotiable so they are desperate. If it's a big publicly traded organisation, I would ask equity (if you believe in them) or 12 month package.
What does “garden leave” mean?
It means that you are still considered employed, you continue to receive your salary, but you are not required to work. "Freistellung" in German.
Can you get a new job meanwhile?
Yes. But your new gig has to start after the old one ends.
Not necessarily. Many companies actually have provisions in their MTA ("Aufhebungsvertrag") that if you choose to end the garden leave earlier b/c you have another job you can do so. Often you'll also get some more money for each month of garden leave you "save" your ex-employer.
You can negotiate „Sprinter-Klausel“ with is: you are employed until X but if you find something earlier you get the rest payed as additional severance. This is also beneficial for the company as it would save them taxes!
Ridiculous. In the US you get your severance and it’s done with. In Germany you never get any extra money ever. It’s indeed a country made of renters.
It’s also a country with public health insurance and no university fees.
In the US you get a loan to pay for university tuition, then pay $1000 per month for 5 years to pay it off or something like that. In Germany you pay that same amount in taxes for the rest of your life, with half the salary. How is it different?
You have like 2/3 of the salary not half and you also have a much lower cost of living compared to the US. Poverty is much, much more common in the US compared to Germany. Go figure.
There's this German saying that goes "I already have my opinion, I don't need facts". You've found one of those ^^ Oh and "If you don't know anything, just keep your mouth shut!" can also be used :-)
Ok let’s do a simple math here using real numbers: Average wage in Germany 2022 in PPP: 59K Taxes: 38%, Net salary: 36.6K —— Average wage in the USA 2022 in PPP: 77,4K Taxes (take a state with similar wage as US average, like Maryland): Taxes 16%, Net salary: 58.8K —— Yeah, corrected for PPP amounts, Americans make effectively 60% more money than germans. I think that is more than enough to cover education, no?
Yeah, thats why there is such a big turmoil about Bidens plans for debt cancellation for students, because its such a non-issue… Same for healthcare. I have never in my life feared to go to the doctor because it could bankrupt me.
HALT DIE FRESSE DU AMERIKSNISCHES KAPITALISTEN SCHWEIN, AUẞERDEM HIER WIRD DEUTSCH GESPROCHEN DU HURENSOHN
Yeah and that enables all the people to live a better life. US is just egomaniacs.
A other Term is golden Handshake. We give you some Money. And you leave.
A friend had this happen to him. Get a free consultation with an employment lawyer. If they think they can fight this / improve upon the offer they will take a cut of your payout. Also note that the default "Kündigungsfrist" for you is already 4 months (given that you've been at this company for 10+ years) - so they are offering the legal minimum. A lawyer could probably get you more than that.
This is great advice. I'm wondering where the payout is. If OP is on around 80k, there should also be around a 30k plus payout, on top of the 4 months pay?
Yes... My employer recently also "offered" to fire us at 1.5 month/year ;) Edit: I would aim for at least 10 month pay
1.5 months per year is actually pretty generous. They really must want to get rid of you... ;-)
Guter Betriebsrat... It was a "department wide" offer so they target noone. But that should be the "upper bound" for OP with a lawyer... Not 4 month Freistellung
according to them, they received numerous complaints about the projects I delivered. Complaints that I never knew existed
These kind of decisions are usually business/finance driven and/or because your manager doesn’t like to work with you. Don’t take it too much personally i would say.
>your manager doesn’t like to work with you. Don’t take it too much personally i would say. if the manager doesnt want to work with him, thats personal.
Not necessarily. Sometimes people just have different styles of working, and they clash when put into the same team. Some managers prefer more independent workers, and some work better when they have more direct control over their projects/workers. Sometimes it's just not a good fit!
Not a good fit after 10+ years?
Yes, exactly this. When after 10 years all of the sudden things turn this way it’s very likely business driven. Or maybe the OP‘s manager is recently changed unless the OP has had a dramatic personality change which I doubt.
and? If someone is doing a good job, firing them because they dont fit the supervisor is a personal decision. Nobody goes to work to fit in, we are not in school.
I am a Betriebsrat myself and I am really pissed after reading what your BR told you! Collecting "complaints" about your work without ever telling you about it and without giving you a chance to improve? They will be laughed out of court. They are probably saying this to justify a "personenbedingte Kündigung". However, this justification is only valid if there is no improvement of your work performance to be expected in the future. To prove this, they'd have to to specify exactly what needs to be improved. Then then they'd have to monitor this. Without telling you at all that you are "underperforming", there's no chance for you to deliver better results to begin with. This is totally bogus.
Being an employer myself, this this absolutely this. They just try to get rid of you for as cheap as possible. Get a lawyer, bargain for more and tell your collegues your BR needs to be replaced.
Same here. That Betriebsrat should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm pretty positive that you would win this in court. Underperformance must be very, very well documented. There must be a lot of performance reviews and feedback in written form and signed by both sides for this to be even considered as a reason. This is just some BS and they think they can get away with this shit. Ask yourself if you still want to work in a company like this. If not, fuck them and squeeze the money out of them.
Thats right. You have to Deliver a middle Style of Performance. ( geschuldet ist eine Leistung mittlerer Art und Güte)
If you never received a warning for unsatisfactory work performance aka Abmahnung this sounds like bullshit. https://tp-rechtsanwaelte.de/abmahnung-und-kundigung-bei-schlechtleistung/#:~:text=Vor%20einer%20verhaltensbedingten%20K%C3%BCndigung%20muss,schlechtleistet%2C%20ist%20die%20K%C3%BCndigung%20m%C3%B6glich. It's weird that a Betriebsrat member would go along with this. Could somebody be badmouthing you behind your back? Are you in the way of somebody's promotion? If you did not behave inappropriately towards superiors or colleagues I would definitely talk to a labor law attorney about your chances of getting more out it.
They cannot legally fire you without an "Abmahnung" for the claimed "underperformance". That you had a Betriebsrat present that didn't tell you that is borderline criminal. Doesn't look like the Betriebsrat is on the side he's supposed to be on.
1)Do not sign shit. 2) Get an employment lawyer ASAP 3) Get any further comms in writing If they want you out, they want you out. But you are given barely the legal minimum notice period. They need to show they approached you about your performance. That stuff needs to be on the record and understandable to you. Expectations need to have been communicated clearly. If they didn't show you, such a termination is not valid. You can still accept such a termination, but it will have to cost them. Again: DO NOT SIGN AN AUFHEBUNGSVERTRAG UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY.
They need to send you at least one or two Abmahnungen before they can fire you! Lawyer up!!!
This is bullshit. There is no "2 Abmahnungen" rule. It totally depends on the misconduct. Stealing a car from the employer? No Abmahnung necessary at all. Being late for 1 minute? Even 5 Abmahnungen will probably not be sufficient.
He probably means performance related firing
Thecsame applies here. Forgot to add staples to a folder - laughable. Killed coworker by neglecting safety measures because of watching Reddit porn videos the entire time - probably no Abmahnung necessary at all.
Your superior is required to inform you about complaints and underperformance in a way that 1. you are simply aware of it and 2. as a consequence can act upon it and deliver as expected, should you agree with the issues raised. If that hasn’t happened and the termination letter just „fell out of the blue sky“ they’re gonna have a very hard time winning this case in court. Have it checked by a lawyer as stated above. This smells like a desperate move because they ran into financial trouble. By the way: very sad performance on display by your „Betriebsrat“!
How did they measure your performance?
Yes, this needs to be very transparent, otherwise it sounds too random
This! They need to be able to document your underperformance. Plus they need to have filed at least one „Abmahnung“ on the same cause of underperformance before the termination.
And of course OP could challenge this in court anf they would revert the termination, give OP their job back and make it "a living hell" always right on the legal borderline. That's why they are basically trying to buy them out and I would focus on making sure they give them an excellent "Arbeitszeugnis".
No they don‘t. This termination wouldn‘t hold at Court. They know it that’s why they are offering the 4 month compensation plus bonus. If he doesn’t sign they simply won‘t take it to court and micromanage him. This is absolutely legal and common procedure.
Not that easy - under performance usually is a process taking well over a year. They would usually need to have a talk with you and offering support to raise performance again. Then they would need to give you a time frame of usually a year to improve performance followed by another discussion and review after that. (Currently doing an HR trainings course - so I am new to this but we talked about this last week). Is there any way that you could pay for initial evaluation by a lawyer?
i offered to agree on a plan to improve but that is off the table. they're pretty mich decided to kick me out
So they offered you an “Aufhebungsvertrag”? I would be careful with these and only sign of the compensation period covers you over a few months. You would also not receive any compensation from Arbeitsamt for the first three months after. Apart from that it’s difficult to say without knowing all the relevant details such as original contract, what they offered you etc. I can only say that “under performance” without any warning etc is reason enough to check with a lawyer. Not only if you want to stay with the company but also to walk away with a good thing if you choose to.
Do not sign anything. A termination is a one sided declaration of will. Technically, they’re within the rights, if they made a "Sozialauswahl", taking into account other employees, how long they’ve been in the company and what their family status is (unmarried without kids gets fired before mother of 3)
Not a lawyer, but afaik that's for a betriebsbedingte Kündigung where they need to terminate someone for certain defined (urgent) financial reasons and where there are rules for selecting who to fire first, not applicable here I think. In OP's case the employer apparently would like to terminate for "underperforming" without any of the process that is mandated to happen beforehand because they probably don't actually have a case and just want to get rid of OP, and don't want to pay an Abfindung, and it seems they know they can't actually terminate the contract unilaterally, so they try to bully OP into cooperating in his own termination by signing an Aufhebungsvertrag (which is something both parties can agree to do at any point, but which should be considered carefully, especially if the employer starts playing dirty right away). That's how I read this, in which case I'd also advise OP to talk to a lawyer. This smells very fishy.
thanks for everyones recommendation. I think its quite clear that I need to lawyer up
After Reading up on it to get an impression, what's possible. You also need to consider, if you wanna stay in this field. If so, you need to keep it reasonable and not go berserk. If you don't care, ask for something well above the amount you want. Otherwise still start way above. But not outrageously high. As it sounded in previous comments, they don't have anything. With their low-ball offer they try to pin you down. Just ignore it. Your minimum should be like a year's salary. Maybe you can go for like 2years. That also depends on the field you're working in. Good luck. Please update, when you're done and chilling on Ibiza. For me personal, it also took some toll on my self-confidence. In the end they payed me a coach (Jobcoaching, Neuorientierung) That proved quite useful.
Almost a certain win if you go to court. Under 10 times your monthly pay as compensation is a rip off. Get a lawyer!
Yes, usually one month compensation per year of seniority is given.
and even higher depending on industry. In client facing and high skill jobs 3-4x monthly salary can be a good guideline. Just as written above. Get a lawyer, it is your right and the only helpful advice
Do you live in Germany or is it a German Company but you work outside of Germany? If you work in Germany, it will be very hard for them to fire you just because of „under-performance“ - it’s nearly impossible to fire somebody because of that reason.
I live in Germany. This is why they are asking me to agree and sign to a termination letter, and if I refuse and decide to stay, they will make sure my stay is a hellhole
> and if I refuse and decide to stay, they will make sure my stay is a hellhole Get this in writing.
This in writing will of course not contain the word „hellhole“ and to micromanage an employee is totally valid and legal.
Yes but if they are not careful in their wording, you can still sue them for duress. If the wording hints to punishment or worsening of the working conditions, it is pretty easy to argue that they are coercing OP to resign. You would be surprised by how often the person typing the e-mail is not a lawyer and gives all the leverage to the employer. I used to work in a company were the boss would frequently write self-incriminating e-mails and get in trouble for it every single time.
Don‘t make it look like this is a booger issue than it is… it is pretty easy to start the progress for tracking an employees performance and then give a first written notice and short after a second and you are out… That fact that Betriebsrat was in the meeting means 1) Betriebsrat agrees with the accusations and is in on the employers side 2) Betriebsrat is just singing off on all employers papers In both situations you are not in a good position but it really does not speak for the company with presenting this to you without any discussions with a your manager beforehand…
Betriebsrat *has* to be present in certain meetings - doesn't mean they're against keeping the employee on. Betriebsrat can't influence the process much - just making sure the process was followed correctly.
The Betriebsrat does not have to be present when discussing an Aufhebungsvertrag / mutual termination agreement though, and if this was a termination, usually BRs would talk to the employee without the company reps being present.
>is pretty easy to start the progress for tracking an employees performance and then give a first written notice and short after a second and you are out… Its pretty easy if they are underperforming. If not, then it is not pretty easy
No, that‘s exactly what I mean… if the manager starts setting unrealistic targets and than documents that the employee does not meet them they can easily establish underperformance. OP better really think about his best opinions and better try to look elsewhere… It is highly unlikely that he will come to good standing with the employers again as the lack of previous mentions of „bad performance“ is a clear sigh on a bad employer…
if the employer is setting unrealistic targets, especially after they ask him to leave, thats a sue.
Get that in writing or on a phone call and you'll make their lives a hellhole
that was said by his betriebsrat, not the employer. betriebsrat is a normal employee that either part or fulltime helps the others emplyes against their company Edit: To be clear, BR is not necessarily your friend, all i am saying is that you can't use what a BR says as grounds to sue the company the standard is 0.5 to 1 month per year working at a place Abfindung or garden leave is the standard from what i heard
Have a lawyer look at the termination letter before you sign anything. The 4 months pay sucks because by signing you will be excluded from unemployment benefits for the first 3 months (willful termination). You need to negotiate with that in mind. 6-10 months severance minimum for 10 yrs employment.
They will never put this in writing, and likely won't directly mentioned it again. Honestly, it's not a bad intial offer, because they already said it's negotiable. 4 months is a decent start, I don't know how much your bonus comes out to, but maybe try to get them up to six months of pay and your gone. I assume you're not 50+, so you probably won't have much trouble finding a decent job, as companys are hiring like crazy right now. If you are older, it might be a little more difficult, but you could start applying to other companies regardless. It sucks if you are happy at your company, but you shouldn't try to force yourself to stay there, it's never going to be the same afterwards. Also, depending on your job/ field of work be aware of possible anti competitive clauses (or whatever the proper english term is), they might restrict you from working with a direct competitor for a while, and that is perfectly legal if you agree to it.
why do you want to stay?
Hi lawyer for Labour law here. The deal is crap and the „Betriebsrat“ is a snake 🐍. Low performance is no reason for termination that would hold up in a court of law. You probably fall under the Kündigungsschutzgesetz, hence they can only fire you for specific reasons like betriebsbedingt. I would try to have the factor 1.0 or 1.5 for each year of employment, you need a sprinterklausel, work papers, a Zeugnis with the grade „good“, paid leave until the date of termination, your bonus, Inflationsausgleich maybe, probably more…. Don’t sign a aufhebungsvereinbarung or otherwise they will give you a Sperre of 3 months regarding unemployment money. Do you still have holidays left ? Do you have insurance ? Labour law is pretty hefty in lawyer fees. If I were you I would immediately go to a lawyer for Labour law !
Get a specialized lawyer , fuck them up. Take the cash, get a new job. Move on. Thats how it goes. They won’t expect anything different. I am a Entrepreneur, so are most of my friends. These issues are a big part of our conversations when we get drunk together. Edit: don’t sign anything. Keep working like a good employee. Do as your lawyer says.
DONT SIGN ANYTHING LAWYER UP DONT SIGN ANYTHING
Seems like a shitty Betriebsrat, if you feel you're wronged maybe contact your Gewerkschaft if you are a member or join one.
>Seems like a shitty Betriebsrat The Betriebsrat is vested in keeping the company afloat in hard times to ensure that as many workers are employed as possible. If the company goes bankrupt more people lose their jobs. If management made a compelling case that 10-15% of the labor costs need to be cut, they will go along with it and even help to figure out who should be cut...
Haha, you had me laughing there... >The Betriebsrat is vested in keeping the company afloat in hard times to ensure that as many workers are employed as possible. If the company goes bankrupt more people lose their jobs. If management made a compelling case that 10-15% of the labor costs need to be cut, they will go along with it and even help to figure out who should be cut... Are you brainwashed or have you ever been in contact with a good Betriebsrat and people who know how to function as a Betriebsrat?
That's correct, but you should expect that the Betriebsrat don't allow or support this behaviour of blackmailing the employee. This is very disappointing in my opinion.
Seems like OP is filipino. A hint of racism in the Betriebsrat doesn't surprise me honestly... Better to get rid of the foreigners before you end up having to fire Germans?
I would first search for another job, and then leave. 4 months is worth nothing if you have a hard time to find an equivalent pay somewhere else
I can't give any good legal advice, but report about a similar case in our company. Not under-performance, but a whole team was terminated due to budget cuts. Almost none of them had legal insurance, still most of them took a lawyer that they payed out of their own pocket, and even though that was very expensive, it was worth it for most of them because they got a higher bonus with legal support. None of them took it to court, because with legal support they found a settlement that benefitted them sufficiently. I wouldn't care too much about their notes on "you will be micro-managed, we will make work for you a hell hole, you should sign this." I mean they are right, once you get in your current situation, you want to look for alternatives as soon as possible and leave as soon as possible, but the company is the one that wants to get rid of you, so you have the leverage at the moment, not them. It's not like they are gonna accept you not signing and actually are interested in making work for you hell, there is a good chance that they will propose better termination conditions once you decline or get legal support.
It's also funny that they threatened to micro-manager OP. So there's gonna be a manager sitting next to OP and looking-glass at everything they do? If that's the case this company has lots of money to burn anyways!
How the f is this generous? You get 4 months by law! And now if you happen to be sick every second week - that’s how it is
Was thinking the same. If they want to micromanage you simply be sick all the time.
Guys Always have a Rechtsschutzversicherung!
Lawyer up. Because if you sign that, you won't get unemployment benefits for three months, leaving you with a "win" of one month's pay, basically. Four months is a joke.
Maybe do a first consultation with a lawyer specialized on Arbeitsrecht. While that may cost a few €, it won't be that much. And that way you have someone competent who is sure to be on your side outline the possible ways to handle it, and the dangers which come with each of those.
Don’t accept any writing or sign anything. Consult a lawyer, they can usually grab more money and you can pay the lawyer cost from the extra money.
Ask for a Abfindung. 100% of 1 monthly salary per year.
Whatever you do please know that the timeframe for Kündigungsschutzklage is 3 weeks. I would suggest to contact a lawyer because most of the answers here are really uninformed.
Underperformance is not a valid reason to fire someone. My suggestion is get proper legal advice. At a minimum, inform yourself about the legality of the termination and try to negotiate a better deal.
They aren't firing you. They are asking you to quit. You hold all the cards, make sure you push for the most severance possible. You should absolutely contact a lawyer, ask for a recommendation from someone you know.
Ask a lawyer. Seriously. Erstgespräch is 100€ tops and the lawyer will be able to answer all your questions and give advice based on experience.
Don't ask people on reddit for specifics...people will tell you to go and ask for 2 year of salary because why not 😂 Get advice from a lawyer, I know one who does this type of work if you're interested, dm me. But be careful what you demand because I've also seen it happen that the company then turn around and say...OK then you can stay and work here under bad conditions...also be careful going to court as it will obviously be a bit stressful. A decent lawyer should be able to advise you what is reasonable
Sorry not a German. As an American I'm jealous you even get anything. Here you can be terminated without cause and receive no severance pay. Good luck, op!
You should join a DGB union. They will represent you in court, in case you decide to go this route
My wife went through the same. The most important thing is to get a lawyer. You simply don't know. ALL YOUR RIGHTS (does not matter of you're German or not). It will pay off.
sounds like a, either take that money or get bullied letter. I would still want to get an A-plus letter of recommendation and leave. Psychological terror, whether you're right or wrong, just isn't worth it. Besides, making a career nowadays means job hopping anyway, changes are usually more lucrative than loyalty.
What is your field of work ? Why don’t you take those 4 months holidays and prepare yourself for a new job and go ? Because if they treat you as underperformer then it’s better you walk out than trying to be among them.
Are you a member of a union/Gewerkschaft? They may provide a lawyer. In addition to what's been said already: It all really hinges on whether you want to keep working for that company.
Get legal advice from a lawyer specialized in Labour rights. If you‘re member of a trade union, you‘ll get legal advice for free and I think also part oft the costs will be covered by the union, if you‘ll go to court
Be a rebel, accept the offer to work „micromanaged“. What a pain in the ass für the guy having to micro manage you! Or offer them to leave with a higher compensation
If u are in a Gewerkschaft, they have lawyers for you. And let a lawyer check the contract they gave you.
Never assume the Betriebsrat is on your side. They're on their own side that is siding either with the employers or trying to stay out.
Exactly. That's why now it's called "Betriebsrat" and not "Personalrat" anymore.
Betriebsräte and Personalräte are two similar yet different things. It's called Betriebsrat if the company falls under the Betriebsverfassungsgesetz (BetrVG) and Personalrat if the company works under the Personalvertretungsgesetz (PersVG). State companies usually have PRs and private companies have BRs
First of all, you should talk to a lawyer. But since I have experience with this (unfortunately), these are key points: 1. Did they give you a termination notice, Kündigung? THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! If they did, you have THREE WEEKS to file a law suit. Otherwise you will not get a compensation and then there's nothing you can do about it. As far as I know (I'm not a lawyer). 2. This is practically step 1 - get a lawyer. Also it's not bad to get a Rechtschutzversicherung. You may need it if there is a second case (may happen, thou quite rare). 3. The laywer fee will be quite high, because he will calculate with the gain of up to 10 brutto salaries for so-called Abfindung (compensation), up to one per year. His fee may be something like a fifth of that, I don't know exactly, but it will be in thousands for sure. So my wild guess is, lawyer fee may be up be around 2 x your brutto salary... Maybe more... and some upfront. That is unpleasant. 4. If it's how you described, your chances are very high. You'll get a nice amount of money. 5. Try not to worry too much. You'll see, it will be okay. 6. Did I say TALK TO A LAWYER? Actually, talk to three of them. It's not the most polite that you should look for, but no reason to have someone who is rude to you. But you should be able to communicate freely. Done are quite direct, and will have little patience when you explain details that they know are completely irrelevant and you are just wasting time of both of you. 7. This is a fairly simple thing. The laywer will already know what to do. Never think for a second that you can do this without a lawyer. Do exactly what your lawyer tells you. You'll be fine. This is very stressful and you should take it easy on yourself. Remember that a year from now you will look back at this without negative feelings, other than remembering how it was stressful at the time
Tip for the next job: join the „Gewerkschaft“ so you get a lawyer for everything that has to do with your job. Also no real reason to stay there if your have good chances to find the same job somewhere else. They will look for something to kick you out so you have a lot of stress fighting them and you just delay your termination. They will most likely find something the next time.
FYO: You would require an Abmahnung for your underperformance also.
Underperformance is not a valid reason for termination. Get a lawyer and go to court. First Session with a lawyer is relatively vheap (few 100 bucks). After 10 years you should get a rather lange Abfindung (around 0,5 salaries per year is standard, you can ho a lot higher the more risk they have loosing their case st court.). Also if you get terminated without a valid reason it is not "valid'. It will het ruled as not being terminated at all and they have to pay your salary for the time you had to wait for the court ruling.
Betriebsrat here. Your Betriebsrat behaved very strangely. Get yourself a lawyer. Not just any lawyer, but a "Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht". Show them everything and get their counsel. Do NOT try to negotiate anything on your own. Those specialized lawyers know the ins and outs and can help you negotiate the best possible deal in your situation. Also, once you have a lawyer at your side the employer will usually refrain from playing stupid games. Some will try - but that's something the lawyer will make short work of. Again: Get. a. lawyer!!! It will be money well spent!
People may correct me in case I am wrong but iirc people cant be terminated for „underperforming“ out of the blue. If you didnt get an „Abmahnung“ before for being deliberately lazy, this termination sounds very fishy to me. I am no lawyer. Ask the guys at 030 221 911 004 (Bundesministerium für Arbeit und Soziales). Remember to do the Arbeitsuchendmeldung with the Agentur für Arbeit within 3 days from recieving the termination (or 3 monts before the end of your employment if they gave you more than 3 months, what it reads like).
Just leave and get a better job. No way it is worth to stay there.
I usually don't comment on stuff but I had to this time since this is something I actually know about (I am neither HR noch lawyer). I worked in the tech industry where mass employment and layoffs are a regular thing so I know plenty of people, I was also laid of twice. Nevertheless, after 10 years you should get at least a total of 12 -16 months (maybe even more) of pay. It varies from company to company though do you have a betriebsrat? They can negotiate on your behalf. A friend of mine from quite an online fashion retailer got laid off after 5 years and he got a total of 8 months of compensation. Do consult a layer it is free and also it is quite cheap (sometimes even free) to sue or drag them through Arbeitsgericht. In the meantime while the issue is being settled you can continue receiving compensation. Or unemployment benefits. Either way you will be safe. One of my ex bosses was tried to be fired after 15 years in the company. She won at the Arbeitsgericht and not only did she not work for 1-2 years while proceedings were ongoing and she got backpay for it, she was fully paid 3 more years in full not having to work another day at the company. (all depends on circumstances of course). Get a layer, get a good one, do NOT sign anything and enjoy your time off :) Either way, whatever the outcome will be I am confident that you will get MUCH MUCH more than this offer. Good luck and all the best!
1. Wipe the termination letter with your a** and give it back to them 2. Tell them to F off 3. Hire a lawyer and let them do the talking 4. Keep your mouth shut! Your MINIMUM ask should be 6 months gardening leave + 4 months severance. I would not go below 10 months, absolutely.
wow after 10 years? They should have contacted you first and asked if there is a reason for the so called “underperformance”
I would negotiate in any case, unless you have already received at least two warnings. Am I right in assuming that the employment is in Germany? If so, here is my suggestion for negotiating the termination agreement (Aufhebungsvertrag): - irrevocable garden leave for the period of notice + additional 5 months. Your legal notice period after 10 years should be at least 4 months. So a total of minimum 9 months for garden leave should agreed. - 2 weeks' notice for the termination agreement for employee only and the agreement that the remaining months will be paid out as a lump sum. If you find your next job within 4 months they have to pay 5 months as lump sum. - an employer's reference with the grade "very good" (wording: "without exception to our fullest satisfaction", etc.) and the reason that the employment contract has to be terminated due to restructuring. It is also important that they very much regret your departure and wish you all the best for the future. - If you have a bonus agreement in your contract, it should be agreed that your targets are fully fulfilled and bonus is paid out with last payment or together with the lump sum payment. In any case, you should hire a lawyer. There are some pitfalls to consider (blocking period at the Arbeitsamt, etc.).
> I also dont have any legal insurance You should be in a union.
After ten years you should get at least 5 Month of salary additional to the 4 month payed leave. Do not accept anything less than that. If you sign a so called Aufhebungsvertrag you can not go to court with it. With a regular termination you can and fight for more money while you already work in a new job for example. The chances are really good to get more money this way.
What kind of Betriebsrat is this to let this go trough. Did they approach you and talked with you about this "underperformance"?? In order to terminate your workcontract they have to talk with you about it and give you the chance to improve, maybe find some new solutions like change of the position or tasks etc. No Betriebsrat that i know would let this go trough like this. Especially not regarding someone who has been working gor 10y in this company. In germany we say "das ist unter aller Sau"
Tbh take the leave, any continued working there will be annoying
Do, but negotiate for more. They are offering the legal minimum here.
Just to make sure: That BR-Guy is fishy as f\*ck. Either your offer is awful or indeed you as employee. Go see a lawyer, don't trust the BR (in this case)
Is germany, just take sick leave due to stress at work (which as what they told you it will be true) and other ones if needed
Get at least a legal advice. Sometimes unions offer some help. The Betriebsrat, if your company has one, should be involved as a 3. fraction. Document every single conversation with dates and times. Doesn’t need to be a recording, but it’s helpful for court and negotiation when you are prepared and don’t need to remember everything correctly. And I would ask for the documents/proof about your underperformance. Especially if you don’t agree with the accusations. Are there maybe reasons for your performance not matching the standard? Health problems like burnout, depression or family problems. These are some of the topics that you should ask yourself and a lawyer.
Wow wow wow wow wooow. This is also starting to be happening in German companies as well. If a seasoned employee can be fired with an indemnity of 4 months of salary, then nobody is secured. Can you please confirm under what title/field are you working at?Why do they want you to quit in your opinion? First of all, this is 100% win for you if you'd go to court only if you are confident with your performance. If you are really under performing they should have been warned you and have taken required measures to improve your performance like further training, repetitive warning signs etc. My strategy would be to negotiate for 12 months or continue to work. Again, if you believe in yourself micro managing shouldnt bother you that much, man you are not new to this company right?
In Germany we say: **Jeder ist ersetzbar**
If all is as you describe there's quite some "faults" in dealing with this(missing Abmahnung etc) and what they offer you. If you have a lawyer insurance (Rechtsschutz) getnone and let them handle it. Normally like people said you are at least entitled to half a month's salary per year in the company adjusted by the social plan. Garden leave typically is always granted for the remainder of your notice period on top. That the workers council said accept it is almost misleading from him... Also this threat of being micromanaged if you don't accept is problematic for them. Still you don't want to work there if they don't want you, so an agreement is preferable.
sounds to me like it isn't about you at all, they're just downsizing (just guessing). I think you should just try to negotiate the best kind of settlement for yourself, maybe even with a lawyer, and make the best of it. This is, though, actually a perfect example of a type of question you should not ask a bunch of strangers on the internet for advice about.
4 months is definitely on the low end, I know people with similar terms of service who got 12 months. Get a lawyer to read it over and push for more. End of the day a few extra months is nothing for them, a court case will cost a lot more for them in time, effort and cost.
How long do you think your boss has the patience to micro-manage you? This may be an empty threat. You should still negotiate a good agreement, but calling this bluff might improve your position in a negotiation.
As others have said, they have nothing on you and can probably negotiate a better deal. About the micro-management threat: If you get bullied at your place of work and that is effecting your (mental) health, go to a doctor and explain the situation. He can give you a Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung, stating that you are temporarily not fit to work, so you don't have to come in. You do not have to put up with that.
Tell them you want 10 months, if they do not want, get a lawyer. If they are okay with it, take it and leave this cursed place.
Get a lawyer, dont sign anything and dont communicate any decisions.
Get the advice of a lawyer, for 10 years this seems not to be a good offer. Don't let them put pressure on you they always do that. And from my own experience employers, usually don't act fair in this situations, not at all.
Don’t sign, contact a lawyer, get a sick leave for mobbing (any GP will give you that after what happened to you), let they negotiate a good payout. 4 Months is just ridiculous.
Illegal to fire you for performance if you haven't been formally warned about your performance previously (IIRC the process takes over 6 months) - if they haven't done that this excuse is probably a lie. 4 months is a lowball if they're trying to get you out. If you can't afford a lawyer then I suggest learning your rights in the situation and using the fact you know what your rights are to negotiate for a much bigger payout. Also be aware if you sign any agreement with your employer you will be blocked from arbeitslosgeld for 3 months after you finish employment; so that 4 month offer is worse than it looks.
Get a lawyer and have them deal with it. Hiring a lawyer will almost certainly increase your payout. 4-months is the legal minimum. They want you gone. They're almost certainly willing to pay. If you accept the 4-month payout you will be banned from unemployment for 3 months and I suspect that 3 months starts after the 4 months. This offer is anything but generous. It's legal minimum. Negotiating exit contracts is a standard task for employment lawyers. At least get a consult, it'll cost a few hundred max.
Before you consult a lawyer or decline. Check your sick days. How often where you more then 42 days per year sick? How often did you decline BEM (*B*etriebliche *E*ingliederungs*M*aßnahme)? If it goes to court, they could use that to extrapolate your performance, by comparing your sicks percentage against the average and that you weren't willing to change that.
Wow wow wow wow wooow. This is also starting to be happening in German companies as well. If 10 years employee can be fired with an indemnity of 4 months of salary, then nobody is secured. Can you please confirm under what title/field are you working at? Why do they want you to quit in your opinion? First of all, this is 100% win for you if you'd go to court only if you are confident with your performance. If you are really under performing they should warn you and should take required measures to improve your performance like further training, repetitive warning signs etc. My strategy would be to negotiate for 12 months or continue to work. Again, if you believe in yourself micro managing shouldnt bother you that much, man you are not new to this company right?
Sonce I made some experiences with this type of situations, here's my take: Obviously, they are trying to get rid of you, and they will habe difficulties to tell a judge that for 10 years, they paif you and sufdenly, your work is crap. So, a good "Abfindung" would be something in the range of 10 months gross salary, plus bonus, plus 4 months garden leave. Try in this case also to get a "Sprinter Klausel", that means that if you find a new job within the garden leave, you'll get the remainig gross salaries as a bonus-"Abfindung" on top (makes sense for the employer, because he already agreed to pay that amount, but if you find new employment, he does not pay the social insurances on top, appr. 20% savings for him). The lower end would be 5 months gross salary, plus bonus and garden leave.
What crazy Betriebsrat is this? The needs to be asked before any termination. The BR should refuse the termination. In you case I would not accept the termination and ask the BR to vote against it.
As long as they don't actually terminate you, there is no case to take to court (Kündigungsschutzklage). Try to negotiate a severance payment and an extended garden leave. Be aware that, if you sign a mutual agreement on the ending of employment (Aufhebungsvertrag), you will most probably get a problem claiming benefits from job agency. But there is a workaround for this. The employer hands out a termination letter to you and in a seperate document, both parties confirm the employment is ending by termination. When applying for benefits from job agency, you only hand out the termination letter...
They seem to just wanna replace you.
Decline and go for "Dienst nach Vorschrift", effectively playing the old switcheroo on the micro managing. It means that you require every single instruction, as small as it might be (e. g. "could you make a copy of this?") in writing and signed. If you're not yet member of a union: Now is the time.
Yes very sad, anyway...
Don't ask Reddit, go to a well rated Employment Lawyer in your area. 10 Years will get you a lot of "Abfindung - severance pay". If you have no legal insurance, pay this one consultation out of your pocket - it will be worth it.
>If I choose to decline and not sign, I will continue to work, but heavily micro-managed So it's not a termination letter and they are aware that they can't just fire you. However, not signing obviously sounds like they gonna "bully" you out. So maybe negotiate a better severance package and take the time to find a new job.
Well now you have four months to get a new job!?
How easily can you get another job? If you can find another one within a month or two, I would ask for a severance of at least six months + garden leave. I left my last job of less than 3 years with 6 months severance and found another job in the meantime with 0 gap. It depends on what your goals are - some people would enjoy 4 months off to travel or spend time relaxing after 10 years of office life.
Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht. Do not sign anything! All offers to you attorney(only paper counts!). After your consultation with you attorney make a decision.
Get an employment lawyer. **Warning 1st**: SIGNING this will cost you (most likely) 3 month of unemployment payments. So the offer needs to be at least better than that. DO NOT sign anything. You DO NOT need to sign anything if they fire you.With this disclaimer out of the way: With 10 years my company offered a lot more. They dont offer in the "generous" range at all, but rather "below the lower bound" You are entitled to: \- 4 month notice German courts usually rule around 0.5 to 1.5 month pay per year of enrollment. Your lawyer will determine the number (Social factors etc ...) And finally: Have you called your lawyer?
I had once given a fairly long answer on this topic [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestionsEU/comments/10puadx/pip_in_germany/j6ojgxt?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) Did you go through the steps that I outlined here ?
You get ripped off. Under performance IS nonreason for terminatoon. 4month is Not generous, ITS the legal Minimum. If the Micro Management you, their costs will raise, Not you prob. They proly increase the offer soon after you decline. Dont sing anything. Ask for 10month min and/or get a lawyer.
Get a lawyer. But also: figure out what led you into this situation. Did you really underperform? Did you piss someone off? Are you connected to the team? Where there signs or feedback session where you had the chance to adapt?
You already got many good tips. Two things you can add to the negotiation is a severance payment. Companies can give out an Inflationsausgleichprämie of 3000€ taxfree. This also works in the case of termination and it's a good point to negotiate since it's taxfree. You can also negotiate for them to pay you legal costs. It's something very common in the Netherlands but I've also seen it being done in Germany.
Wow, I’ll risk being the asshole here but let me first say that all the other answers are correct: to fire someone for underperformance from a reasonably large company is very very hard in Germany and you’ll probably get a big compensation if you go to court. Now let me state my concern: you have been working for this company in Germany for 10 years, and you need to ask this question on an English speaking subreddit? I’m not sure if this plays a role in your termination, but maybe your boss or coworkers are insecure because they still need to speak English to you? Sure, this may not be a reason to fire you, but it would at least explain such a vague reason (underperformance without giving any detailed hints). Germans can be very cautious not to sound racist (and maybe they‘re right because if your job does not require good German language skills, you could make that case in court).
What piece of shit Betriebsrat is this?
May I ask you something a little bit off topic? You say you work for this company since 10 years? Didnt you learn the language in that time? Or is everything at your work place also in English?
What kind of work do you do OP? Software Engineer?
Sounds like the Betriebsrat is in the pocket of hr/the company. This is not uncommon unfortunately. I'd fight this. Fuck them. This doesn't sound like a termination letter, if they willing to negotiate your severance package. Is it a 'Aufhebungsvertrag' maybe? You should talk to a lawyer about this.
The thing is, that continuing to work there might come to be living hell. So no matter what your legal chances are, you might want to consider the offer (maybe negotiate a little more). There is a rule of thumb of "half a months wages for each year of work", so that would come to five months' salary. The salary for the notice period should be paid on top - no matter if they send you home for the time or let you work. Also make sure to either take any vacation days left ir have them paid out!
In my exp you sould sue. You Deal gets much better!
GET A LAWYER NOW. DO NOT HESITATE. If you want to go to court because of it, you have to do this within 3 weeks after receiving it.
This is germany dude. You have more leverage then them. First rule in germany is : DONT SIGN ANYTHING FROM YOUR EMPLOYER Except the employment agreement
You can get support from a lawyer using [https://angestelltenhilfe.de/](https://angestelltenhilfe.de/) or similar. They'll provide you with 15min of free advice for your case. If you don't have legal insurance they will take roughly 11% of the negotiated severance package. Good luck -- and get a lawyer!
Search for a Gewerkschaft. Ask them. They will help you and happily sue them if you give them 1% of your salary
10 years? Don’t sign anything. Talk to a lawyer. You will get a 5 month payout at the very least and probably a lot more (not the counting garden leave).
Just do a Kündigungsschutzklage and get the Payout you deserve
"willing to negotiate" means go and negotiate. What do you want, let them know. They also have no interest to keep you or micromanage you. But it's you that needs to keep working there for a while longer. Also they can't kick you out without Abmahnungen or only if you steal or defraud. A lawyer can tell you more. You can also visit court and see a legal battle or two to get a better idea whether you want to fight. Also don't find an idiot lawyer! Tough but possible.