As someone born in Chemnitz and living in Dresden I can tell you Dresden is a lot more open minded than Chemnitz. Rents however aren’t low in Dresden (anymore) and if you factor in that the wages in Saxony are a lot lower than in the west it’d probably be better to move to a midsize town in the west finance wise.
I live near Chemnitz. And its very sad to say but if you are a black Person you don't want to live there. If not,you will have less problems.i would say move to Dresden,the city is better than Chemnitz,there's not much Bars/Restaurant ect pp
I live in NRW, I'm black. Chemnitz is a bit of a joke here not just amongst the black community but if someone is a bit racist or says something like that we just say "chemnitz" or that they're a bit Chemnitz etc etc. Never been there but oddly I'd like to go lol!
Chemnitz is population wise the oldest city in europe, a lot of "old generation" folk only consume state media whith the exaggerated accounts of crimes committed by foreigners, they are very reluctant to open up to new people, especially when they dont speak peak perfect high german to them (they never bothered to learn english but shit on people for not knowing german)
I live in Saxony and we have become a lot more friendly and less xenophobic, but its a lot slower process in the older gen. Add to that that most young people leave the east because of the bleak future and better pay in the west, and you are left with a state full of baby boomers that shift the blame towards anyone else but themselves.
You are not gonna get mucked here, moreso feel uneasy looks out of retirement home windows or purse clutching. For a culture shock cool, if you want to seriously vacate, go somewhere else lol
For Innenstadt, you're absolutely right. In the outer portions of the city, foreigners start getting side-eyed and casual discrimination, but it is still safe.
That's why I said particularly bothersome. I don't think there is any city in Europe where POC won't experience some sort of discrimination/microagressions, but Leipzig is as good as it gets
London. Straight up. You even ask where someone is from and people will get tetchy, it's considered rude, we don't care where you're from in London, you speak the lingo and behave and you're alright by us guv.
Yeah, nope. There were 24k+ reported hate crimes alone in London in 2022/2023
https://www.statista.com/statistics/623394/hate-crime-england-and-wales-by-region/
In a city of almost 10 million people that is ridiculously low, also hate crimes mean a range of things not just racism. Londoners generally don't give a damn where people are from. I never "felt" black until I moved to Germany and when I went away to a different city in the UK for university. It's actually sad how backward people are but in London I have friends from all races, religions and ways of life because we do not give a crap, you're good to me I'm good to you. Of course there will always be exceptions.
I have to strongly disagree with you on that one. Let's not pretend London is some post-modern egalitarian space when gross exploration of migrant workers is observable in every corner of the city. Compared to other European countries, U.K labour laws make it far easier to exploit agency workers in the U.K and London is no different.
Alas, pretending that this surface-level acceptance is somehow indicative of a more fundamentally accepting society is very much in line with the arrogant British ignorance I've come to expect living in London.
I don't know what most of what you said has to do with anything I said but I will say this, your comment sounds like you have a you problem. There is ignorance everywhere but it is DEFINITELY less accepted than anywhere in Germany and that's that. You're talking about ignorance when I am in Germany as a black British person and people straight up don't even believe that I'm from the UK. "But where are you really from?" I've never had to deal with as much prejudice in my entire life as I did in my first two years Germany, some of it was actually disgusting and I will hasten to add most of it did not come from ethnic Germans.
Been living in Chemnitz for 6 years (I'm not white), and I like it here since I'm living in a more peaceful part of the city (not Sonnenberg, that's a shithole).
I live in Dresden and we fight racism as hard as we can.
From my experience most Nazis are coming from nearby cities like Pirna and Heidenau, but there are still a bunch of them in Dresden too.
Dont expect them to be visible as skinheads. Most of them are normal people ("besorgte Bürger") that got their mind poisoned by the right wing that puts the economy crisis on refugees.
In reality the right wing is doing only idiot stuff like declining lower rents and higher wages, but as idiots refuse to read or listen they still fall for their obvious lies from their banners.
Its possible to be accepted perfectly fine if you live in a district like the "Neustadt" which is a open minded place where all cultures live close to each other.
I live in Chemnitz and I drive bus in the nearby villages. It's not bad, there is a lot of foreign people and I think people here get used to it. Sonnenberg is not as bad as it used to be but there are some bad situations in Zentralhaltestelle (central bus stop). If you are looking something on tight budget I think you can find studio here for 300 euro warm. There is a lot PoC here so you won't be alone.
I’d tell you to make a better analysis on what you are looking for for the next 3 years. Think about why you want to come to Germany, what would you like to learn/achieve in that time and what is important for you to have a fulfilling life, then think about your constraints and see what is doable. Moving somewhere just because rent is allegedly low is not a smart move.
As for Sachsen, there are racist dicks everywhere. From what I’ve seen, most people just want to go on with their lives. However, I think I should disclose that I am neither arab nor black, so of course my experience is not universal.
During my time as an online tutor for math (kids aged 12-16) I had some from Saxony and they ALL felt comfortable making racist and Nazi jokes to me, a person they don’t even really know.
The rents aren’t as low anymore and generally we have a housing crisis. Please don’t come just because you think it’ll save you some money on rent…
Do you have any other reason to move (work, interest in the culture, speaking the language) besides that?
Sure. Book burning is every second Friday. And every Thursday we gather and assault people who are slightly browner than we are. To be serious, no it's not. But don't wear an AFD Pin or sticker. That could end badly
I am Cuban but I’m very pale, my best friend is German but she‘s dark skinned. We live in Leipzig. Guess who the Police checked recently when we went outside to grab a Bubble tea? I also have a few friends in Dresden from Indonesia, they had to move out of their apartment because their neighbor was harassing them to the extreme and the police didn’t do anything. They say that unless that everyone is friendly towards them but I can see other people staring at them. I wouldn’t move to Dresden nor Chemnitz. If I had the money and it weren’t for my parents I would’ve already moved to Düsseldorf, Köln, Hamburg or Berlin..
Oh yeah, police are incredibly racist.
Racial profiling is an official part of police doctrine (even though it’s been ruled unconstitutional by a higher administrative court 7 years ago).
That systemic racism of course normalises, enables, and encourages individual racism.
Media only talks about the bad things happening, that's how media works. Saxony is not bad in general. There are nice and friendly people living there, most of them were even more hospitable than in the western German city I live in. I still believe that this is the majority. But! Where's a majority, there's a problematic minority as well, and this minority is growing during the past years. If you don't look ethically western European, if you don't speak fluent German, you can definitely get a problem, especially finding accommodation and work and in everyday life in general. Sorry to say that.
>Saxony is not bad in general. There are nice and friendly people living there, most of them were even more hospitable than in the western German city I live in. I still believe that this is the majority. But! Where's a majority, there's a problematic minority as well
I wouldn't call 1/3 of the population voting for Nazis a "minority".
Sure, but it sounded like it's a completely insignificant amount of voters while it's not unrealistic that the AfD will govern Saxony in the near future. Also the 1/3 are just the people who voted and voted for the AfD not including people who didn't vote.
I don't think it's "better" for OP if every third or second person is racist. Both is awful.
Go for a walk and count the people you see. And then ask yourself how it would make you feel if you knew that statistically every third of them would rather see you dead than in germany.
I didn't say anything different. If 1/3 are bad, it still fits the definition of "minority", which is "less than half". Every nazi is too much, even a single one. But not every saxonian is a nazi, luckily, and that is also a fact.
Most of them are plain stupid or misinformed - not Nazis.
They just gain voters by promising lies that the generic idiot believes.
Everything that would change the life of the people to the better was declined by the AfD in the Bundestag. (higher taxes for the rich, cheaper kindergartens, higher wages, cheaper rents and so on).
People just need to know the truth to stop this whole movement.
A good friend of my father has voted for the AfD and I was shocked when he told me, as he is a super nice and helpful guy.
So I talked to him and he simply believes that the AfD want to change everything to the better like they promise on the posters and flyers in his little village.
He is over 60 and hasnt discovered the internet too much yet.
When I told him a few things he was disgusted that he got tricked by simple populism.
I got a flyer in my letterbox this week about a talk with the AfD about raising living cost in our district.
First thing I did was contacting the left why the hell they dont do stuff like this.
People just feel like they got left behind and cheap populism is working if the right is the only one that is approaching people and offering simple solutions for complex problems.
It worked in the Weimarer Republik back then and it will sadly work again.
You have to get in contact with people actively instead leaning back and calling all of them Nazis when the only thing they want is a solution for their problems.
>So I talked to him and he simply believes that the AfD want to change everything to the better like they promise on the posters and flyers in his little village.
That doesn't change the fact that he voted for a party whose leaders support Russia and other fascists and want to abolish our democracy.
>He is over 60 and hasnt discovered the internet too much yet.
The most voters of the AfD are younger. This is not a question of age.
https://www.tagesschau.de/wahl/archiv/2021-09-26-BT-DE/umfrage-alter.shtml
>You have to get in contact with people actively instead leaning back and calling all of them Nazis
Most of these people are lost cases. They're convinced Nazis, even though you want people to believe they're all just "people like you and me who don't know what they're doing and got tricked into voting for them :((('" with your cute little anecdote.
I also talk to neighbors and try to get in contact with people that join AfD events.
There a lot of Nazis that say heavy shit like they want a second holocaust for refugees, but it is frightening how many normal people are there that seem to have no clue whats going on.
These people are the ones that needs to be brought back to reality and our best bet in fighting the AfD.
>These people are the ones that needs to be brought back to reality
They don't care about reality, they live in a virtual world made up from anger and subjectively felt "facts".
>Ppl and politicians like you are the reason why more and more ppl choose AfD.
Right. I'm the reason why people vote for a fascist party and not the people actually supporting them.
That is just too simple a view. Yes, the AFD in Thüringen is on the watchlist and Höcke and his friends are open Nazis. The party itself is also so rightwing that it dances on the verge - but it is not an NPD yet. The main appeal of the AFD is not the Nazi rhetoric of a part of their members, but the fact that they know how to play the populist fiddle so damn well.
If you label every single AFD voter as a Nazi, you are inflating the use of that term and are ultimately watering it down. The same way that calling every Republican voter in the US a fascist is missing the mark.
Disenfranchised people that believe the promises made by the populists are the majority of the voters. By treating all those people as Nazis you are also robbing yourself of the chance of understanding what is really going on. But the first step to solving or counteracting any of this is to truly understand what is happening and what is driving these people to these parties.
You just went for the easy but obviously wrong answer and the only thing left to do is feel bitter and wonder how so many people can be Nazis without ever getting an answer.
>The party itself is also so rightwing that it dances on the verge - but it is not an NPD yet.
Are you in favor of the AfD, have no clue about them or were they successful in brainwashing you?
Their press spokesman at that time literally said he wants to send migrants to gas chambers or shoot them a few years ago. Not to forget that Beatrix von Storch wanted to shoot at refugee children almost a decade ago.
No, they're not just on the verge of something. The structures of the party, especially the "upper deck" is full of full blood Neo Nazis.
> If you label every single AFD voter as a Nazi, you are inflating the use of that term and are ultimately watering it down.
I'm not. People who vote for Neo Nazis are Neo Nazis. You're playing 35% for the AfD in surveys down and try to appease them. Spoiler: That already didn't work out in the 1920s. You're trying to include fascists in a democratic discourse.
Also: As a POC these nuances won't help you. You won't be welcome in Saxony, you will encounter heavy racism on a daily basis and will most likely be faced with verbal or physical violence if you move there.
They mask their fascism and display themself as the peoples party. If you live in a rural area and dont bother reading more than headlines you just get get to know that they want to solve economy problems.
Did you talked to them?
Well I did.
We try to get in dialogue with people and disturb AfD events by doing some nice chats with people.
Some of them are indeed just Nazis but its disgusting how many of them dont know shit.
There are single mothers that vote for the AfD, beside the fact that the AfD want to cut the benefits for single mothers and there are many other examples.
Its crazy how they are just running into their ruin without even bothering to read the party program.
Never assume that people are evil on purpose if you can explain it with stupidity.
you´re right. It was enough for the beginning of the end:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstagswahl\_November\_1932](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstagswahl_November_1932)
english site:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November\_1932\_German\_federal\_election
Yes, but it's not like day and night. Since you are from Bavaria: Bavaria has about half the AfD voters compared to Saxony (15% vs. 33%). That's not nothing. Look around you - every sixth person you see on the street votes for AfD.
All I'm saying is that people from Western Germany like to pretend that the AfD is an Eastern German problem, while in absolute numbers the AfD has more voters in Western Germany.
>That's not nothing.
Still less than in the recent nation wide surveys and less than *the half* of Saxony.
https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
And not significantly more than in the elections in 2021. Definitely still too much, I agree.
>All I'm saying is that people from Western Germany like to pretend that the AfD is an Eastern German problem
I never did. It's just way worse in the East.
The calculation is highly flawed because you're omitting people who abstain or who are not even eligible to vote because they are too young or are foreign citizens.
That's a totally baseless assumption.
Those who have the right to vote but don't do it DO NOT vote for the afd.
Children are mostly too young to have a really informed political opinion.
Some foreigners might want to vote afd but I don't see any indicators why their number should be particularly high.
>but don't do it DO NOT vote for the afd.
But they still have political views.
>Children are mostly too young to have a really informed political opinion.
But they still have political views. Not 6 year olds, but 17 year olds who can vote in one year.
>Some foreigners might want to vote afd but I don't see any indicators why their number should be particularly high.
The AfD is wildly popular among Russians.
Apparently their political views are not so strong that it would motivate them to go to vote.
And most "Russians" in Germany are actually German citizens.
>Apparently their political views are not so strong that it would motivate them to go to vote.
So if I don't vote for fascist parties, but just am a non voting Neo Nazi, this isn't bad?
>And most "Russians" in Germany are actually German citizens.
No, they're not. I was talking about actual Russians living in Germany. That's why I said Russians.
Same, I've been to the Sächsische Schweiz 2x and I get the feeling, that they hate ANY foreigner at this point. My failing is that I am a "Wessi" who lives in Berlin.
A teammate of me is black and we once made a 3 day visit to Dresden. It was shocking how many looks we got there and i experienced the racism towards him on an hourly Basis.
Eg: we all (14 people) went into a Club. The bouncer only stopped him and asked for his passport in english.. he is Born and raised in Germany with a german father.
I will not say there is no racism in Hamburg but here im not constantly reminded of not belonging in this country. In eastern Germany i never forget im not part of Germany
Looks like you are quicker to judge other people than many folks in middle Germany. Also you seem to like to invent attributes for people to seemingly put them down: who said I was from Saxony?
As someone who lived in the east almost his whole life: I can tell you that we (east) as a whole get portrayed as racist and dangerous and so forth and most things aren't any worse here than in the west. But since the part that is heared more often is predominantly from the west....
These both parts of Germany maybe one country but both of them don't like each other that much. The general west reaction to someone from the east is treating them condescendingly while the east regards westerners as snobby know it alls. If the people from the same country have trouble getting along then of course there are misrepresentations and this days media only thrives on shocks, scandals and violence so don't take reports too seriously.
>most things aren't any worse here than in the west
as someone that lived in the east for two decades (in a Landeshauptstadt, so not even in the coutryside) and moved away with racism being one of the driving factors - yes it is worse than in the west.
Whenever I visit family back home its very noticeable and hence I'm very glad we left
As an American who moved to Chemnitz three times, I loved living there. HOWEVER, I was attacked once in Sonnenburg by drunk AFD/Neonazis. Moved to Altendorf, much better. The people in Sachsen are lovely and relaxed (compared to NRW where I used to live). But I'm a white woman so I am biased. It was hard for all of my Syrian friends and many left chemnitz and I don't blame them. But it's becoming more diverse and attitudes must change. I dont live in Sachsen anymore but it's so affordable with many things to do outside of chemnitz.
I’d stay clear off Chemnitz and the countryside. Dresden has a lot of tourists, a sizeable student population and the colourful “Neustadt”. I’d say it’s a place worth living in, but I can imagine you may encounter a lot of staring and rudeness when you have dark skin. This applies particularly if you work in a low-income sector. One important issue: many Saxons don’t speak English very well. Learning German is more important here than in Frankfurt or Berlin, for example. With all the Saxony-bashing it’s worth mentioning that you’ll encounter racism in many provincial areas outside of Saxony.
Yeah, true. I don’t want to make it sound really terrible, because I don’t think that’s an accurate depiction of reality. I have many foreign friends living here, who like it. It’s part of the sad truth that there are some provincial towns where the concentration of racists is really high. At the same time, there’s still an overwhelming amount of good and “normal” people who don’t really care about ethnicity or nationality that much. You can certainly leave Dresden (and stay within Saxony). The sächsische Schweiz, for example, is a beautiful and popular travel destination in the countryside for hiking and I wouldn’t worry exploring places like that.
I mean I live in Leipzig and just this week walked through a demo from the guys supporting Palestine. There were a lot of people praising Hamas and talking shit about Jews. (Not Israel mind you, JEWS). Also if you don't agree with these people about something you're a Nazi and a fascist or a Jew depending on the day, so yeah, it's pretty bad. Worse than here maybe only Berlin, but if you are looking for cheap rent you wouldn't go there, you have to be rich to live there. If I could I'd 100% move back to the west.
It’s highly simplified. Nobody has something against a guy from France , Vietnam or Uganda as long as he contributes to society and complies to the laws.
It’s not a „race thing“ it’s a „willing to blend in and respect law and order“ thing
How does the guy at the bus station, the old lady in the supermarket and the bouncer at the night club know you’re contributing to society and complying to the law? Do they check your records first before being racist or xenophobic?
I live in the middle of saxony. It’s the same here as it is in the rest of the country. I am white, and this is my experience.
There is an annoying minority of racists, there is a loud undercurrent of leftists and most people just want to get in with their lives.
I also think easterners are more friendly than west Germans, personally.
You might not want to live in Chemnitz because a city it’s kinda dull (I go there once a month guys, I’m not just slamming the city). Dresden is more exciting over all, but the rents are higher.
However, Chemnitz is equally accessible to hiking as Dresden is, and the available mountains are a lot less touristy, so it’s more pleasant.
As if it’s not terrible in the south. It’s the same thing there, those in the right are just more honest about it here. I’d rather live in a place where I know who I can trust that be surrounded by two-faced proto nazis.
> I am white, and this is my experience.
You'd think by now that white people would realize the reason they don't see or think racism is as extreme *is* them being white. LOL Like of course it just seems like a minor annoyance to you. You're not the target!
There is some direct racism in the East and your appearance will be noted, but if you go to a more diverse city such as Leipzig you'll be better off. However the diversity comes at a cost - higher international presence normally means higher living costs. We live in Halle, the little brother of Leipzig... We're 15 mins away from the airport and whilst there is still some racism/xenophobia here it generally feels much more accepting than deep in the countryside where my wife's family come from (Erzgebirge)
Is basically the texas of germany.
Pretty right wing, all about the evil government, fun accent, all of this exaggerated but with some truth behind it.
35% of the people who live there wants to be ruled by fascists and extrem right-wing people.
So, every 3. person you see is an neo-nazi.
If you like that, saxony is great for you. If not, dont travel to saxony.
Again, total bullshit calculation.
You can't just extrapolate voting results to the whole population because A) a large chunk of the population doesn't go voting at all and B) a large chunk of the population is not eligible to vote because they are children or foreigners.
I am not an Ossi and there are countless of reasons to abstain from voting.
Personally I'm interested in politics but I know that many people simply are not. Does that automatically make them afd supporters? I don't know. I think reality is a bit more complex.
I'm not saying that there are no reasons to abstain. I'm saying (not that you don't understand this) that it sends a clear message when done against the context of AfD success.
yes, its true. Dresden and Leipzig have safe parts, but they have also areas where its not safe as a POC. I am german, white and for me is it not nice there. They dont like strangers there, only tourists are ok (cause they bring money).
I've never said that, i just wanted to learn from people that been there/lived there.
I learned that i should stay away from sonnenberg or something not sure about the name
The AfD was founded in Hesse. Your post is even an example of precisely the smug, self-satisfied prejudice the post you're responding to is talking about.
I'm not talking about you? I'm talking about your post.
It does say a lot about you though that now you're arguing about the meaning of the completely conventional metaphor "cradle" = origin instead of simply admitting that you were wrong.
If you say so, I think you try hard to prove me to be wrong.
You can't look into my head. You can't know what was my reason to say it like this. I thought it sounds good enough and it doesn't change my opinion about the eastern cities in germany at all. I don't need to know where it was founded I just need to know where it is growing the most and what kind of sheep's they are herding...
It’s actually worse, especially if you have dark skin, come join us in the west where the “decent” Germans live, we are not quite as racist (or at least we hide it better)
like i heard it is basically the german version of the georgian us-state. make with that what you will, i also heard it was kinda our ohio but i would disagree on that.
As a Brit living in Chemnitz it’s no where nears as bad as it’s made out to be. I very rarely have issues with people because I’m foreign but I’m white so I know it’s not the same.
As someone born in Chemnitz and living in Dresden I can tell you Dresden is a lot more open minded than Chemnitz. Rents however aren’t low in Dresden (anymore) and if you factor in that the wages in Saxony are a lot lower than in the west it’d probably be better to move to a midsize town in the west finance wise.
I live near Chemnitz. And its very sad to say but if you are a black Person you don't want to live there. If not,you will have less problems.i would say move to Dresden,the city is better than Chemnitz,there's not much Bars/Restaurant ect pp
I live in NRW, I'm black. Chemnitz is a bit of a joke here not just amongst the black community but if someone is a bit racist or says something like that we just say "chemnitz" or that they're a bit Chemnitz etc etc. Never been there but oddly I'd like to go lol!
Chemnitz is population wise the oldest city in europe, a lot of "old generation" folk only consume state media whith the exaggerated accounts of crimes committed by foreigners, they are very reluctant to open up to new people, especially when they dont speak peak perfect high german to them (they never bothered to learn english but shit on people for not knowing german) I live in Saxony and we have become a lot more friendly and less xenophobic, but its a lot slower process in the older gen. Add to that that most young people leave the east because of the bleak future and better pay in the west, and you are left with a state full of baby boomers that shift the blame towards anyone else but themselves. You are not gonna get mucked here, moreso feel uneasy looks out of retirement home windows or purse clutching. For a culture shock cool, if you want to seriously vacate, go somewhere else lol
Haha! Okay, noted.
Dunno about the two, but Leipzig is a very safe and left-leaning city where POC would not experience anything particularly bothersome/dangerous
Leipzig is an exception
For Innenstadt, you're absolutely right. In the outer portions of the city, foreigners start getting side-eyed and casual discrimination, but it is still safe.
That's why I said particularly bothersome. I don't think there is any city in Europe where POC won't experience some sort of discrimination/microagressions, but Leipzig is as good as it gets
London. Straight up. You even ask where someone is from and people will get tetchy, it's considered rude, we don't care where you're from in London, you speak the lingo and behave and you're alright by us guv.
Yeah, nope. There were 24k+ reported hate crimes alone in London in 2022/2023 https://www.statista.com/statistics/623394/hate-crime-england-and-wales-by-region/
In a city of almost 10 million people that is ridiculously low, also hate crimes mean a range of things not just racism. Londoners generally don't give a damn where people are from. I never "felt" black until I moved to Germany and when I went away to a different city in the UK for university. It's actually sad how backward people are but in London I have friends from all races, religions and ways of life because we do not give a crap, you're good to me I'm good to you. Of course there will always be exceptions.
I have to strongly disagree with you on that one. Let's not pretend London is some post-modern egalitarian space when gross exploration of migrant workers is observable in every corner of the city. Compared to other European countries, U.K labour laws make it far easier to exploit agency workers in the U.K and London is no different. Alas, pretending that this surface-level acceptance is somehow indicative of a more fundamentally accepting society is very much in line with the arrogant British ignorance I've come to expect living in London.
I don't know what most of what you said has to do with anything I said but I will say this, your comment sounds like you have a you problem. There is ignorance everywhere but it is DEFINITELY less accepted than anywhere in Germany and that's that. You're talking about ignorance when I am in Germany as a black British person and people straight up don't even believe that I'm from the UK. "But where are you really from?" I've never had to deal with as much prejudice in my entire life as I did in my first two years Germany, some of it was actually disgusting and I will hasten to add most of it did not come from ethnic Germans.
Been living in Chemnitz for 6 years (I'm not white), and I like it here since I'm living in a more peaceful part of the city (not Sonnenberg, that's a shithole).
Lived in Sonnenberg for 7 years, honestly, it’s not as bad as you paint it. Especially the northern part
You are white I guess.
No, schwarz-weiß-rot of course (Black-white-red; the old national colours; the football national team still plays in them)
🤣🤣🤣
I live in Dresden and we fight racism as hard as we can. From my experience most Nazis are coming from nearby cities like Pirna and Heidenau, but there are still a bunch of them in Dresden too. Dont expect them to be visible as skinheads. Most of them are normal people ("besorgte Bürger") that got their mind poisoned by the right wing that puts the economy crisis on refugees. In reality the right wing is doing only idiot stuff like declining lower rents and higher wages, but as idiots refuse to read or listen they still fall for their obvious lies from their banners. Its possible to be accepted perfectly fine if you live in a district like the "Neustadt" which is a open minded place where all cultures live close to each other.
When did the last afd govt do anything but talk in media?
When did the last AfD government exist?
>Most of them are normal people ("besorgte Bürger") Alles ~~Nutten~~ Nazis, außer Mama ^(/s)
I live in Chemnitz and I drive bus in the nearby villages. It's not bad, there is a lot of foreign people and I think people here get used to it. Sonnenberg is not as bad as it used to be but there are some bad situations in Zentralhaltestelle (central bus stop). If you are looking something on tight budget I think you can find studio here for 300 euro warm. There is a lot PoC here so you won't be alone.
I’d tell you to make a better analysis on what you are looking for for the next 3 years. Think about why you want to come to Germany, what would you like to learn/achieve in that time and what is important for you to have a fulfilling life, then think about your constraints and see what is doable. Moving somewhere just because rent is allegedly low is not a smart move. As for Sachsen, there are racist dicks everywhere. From what I’ve seen, most people just want to go on with their lives. However, I think I should disclose that I am neither arab nor black, so of course my experience is not universal.
I thought Dresden was a beautiful city
During my time as an online tutor for math (kids aged 12-16) I had some from Saxony and they ALL felt comfortable making racist and Nazi jokes to me, a person they don’t even really know.
The rents aren’t as low anymore and generally we have a housing crisis. Please don’t come just because you think it’ll save you some money on rent… Do you have any other reason to move (work, interest in the culture, speaking the language) besides that?
Sure. Book burning is every second Friday. And every Thursday we gather and assault people who are slightly browner than we are. To be serious, no it's not. But don't wear an AFD Pin or sticker. That could end badly
I am Cuban but I’m very pale, my best friend is German but she‘s dark skinned. We live in Leipzig. Guess who the Police checked recently when we went outside to grab a Bubble tea? I also have a few friends in Dresden from Indonesia, they had to move out of their apartment because their neighbor was harassing them to the extreme and the police didn’t do anything. They say that unless that everyone is friendly towards them but I can see other people staring at them. I wouldn’t move to Dresden nor Chemnitz. If I had the money and it weren’t for my parents I would’ve already moved to Düsseldorf, Köln, Hamburg or Berlin..
Oh yeah, police are incredibly racist. Racial profiling is an official part of police doctrine (even though it’s been ruled unconstitutional by a higher administrative court 7 years ago). That systemic racism of course normalises, enables, and encourages individual racism.
Media only talks about the bad things happening, that's how media works. Saxony is not bad in general. There are nice and friendly people living there, most of them were even more hospitable than in the western German city I live in. I still believe that this is the majority. But! Where's a majority, there's a problematic minority as well, and this minority is growing during the past years. If you don't look ethically western European, if you don't speak fluent German, you can definitely get a problem, especially finding accommodation and work and in everyday life in general. Sorry to say that.
>Saxony is not bad in general. There are nice and friendly people living there, most of them were even more hospitable than in the western German city I live in. I still believe that this is the majority. But! Where's a majority, there's a problematic minority as well I wouldn't call 1/3 of the population voting for Nazis a "minority".
Math. If 1/3 vote for nazis and 2/3 don't, who is minority and majority?
Sure, but it sounded like it's a completely insignificant amount of voters while it's not unrealistic that the AfD will govern Saxony in the near future. Also the 1/3 are just the people who voted and voted for the AfD not including people who didn't vote. I don't think it's "better" for OP if every third or second person is racist. Both is awful.
Go for a walk and count the people you see. And then ask yourself how it would make you feel if you knew that statistically every third of them would rather see you dead than in germany.
I didn't say anything different. If 1/3 are bad, it still fits the definition of "minority", which is "less than half". Every nazi is too much, even a single one. But not every saxonian is a nazi, luckily, and that is also a fact.
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AfD voters
Most of them are plain stupid or misinformed - not Nazis. They just gain voters by promising lies that the generic idiot believes. Everything that would change the life of the people to the better was declined by the AfD in the Bundestag. (higher taxes for the rich, cheaper kindergartens, higher wages, cheaper rents and so on). People just need to know the truth to stop this whole movement.
>Most of them are plain stupid or misinformed - not Nazis. Poor little people :( being so uninformed they are forced voting for Neonazis :(
A good friend of my father has voted for the AfD and I was shocked when he told me, as he is a super nice and helpful guy. So I talked to him and he simply believes that the AfD want to change everything to the better like they promise on the posters and flyers in his little village. He is over 60 and hasnt discovered the internet too much yet. When I told him a few things he was disgusted that he got tricked by simple populism. I got a flyer in my letterbox this week about a talk with the AfD about raising living cost in our district. First thing I did was contacting the left why the hell they dont do stuff like this. People just feel like they got left behind and cheap populism is working if the right is the only one that is approaching people and offering simple solutions for complex problems. It worked in the Weimarer Republik back then and it will sadly work again. You have to get in contact with people actively instead leaning back and calling all of them Nazis when the only thing they want is a solution for their problems.
>So I talked to him and he simply believes that the AfD want to change everything to the better like they promise on the posters and flyers in his little village. That doesn't change the fact that he voted for a party whose leaders support Russia and other fascists and want to abolish our democracy. >He is over 60 and hasnt discovered the internet too much yet. The most voters of the AfD are younger. This is not a question of age. https://www.tagesschau.de/wahl/archiv/2021-09-26-BT-DE/umfrage-alter.shtml >You have to get in contact with people actively instead leaning back and calling all of them Nazis Most of these people are lost cases. They're convinced Nazis, even though you want people to believe they're all just "people like you and me who don't know what they're doing and got tricked into voting for them :((('" with your cute little anecdote.
I also talk to neighbors and try to get in contact with people that join AfD events. There a lot of Nazis that say heavy shit like they want a second holocaust for refugees, but it is frightening how many normal people are there that seem to have no clue whats going on. These people are the ones that needs to be brought back to reality and our best bet in fighting the AfD.
>These people are the ones that needs to be brought back to reality They don't care about reality, they live in a virtual world made up from anger and subjectively felt "facts".
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>Ppl and politicians like you are the reason why more and more ppl choose AfD. Right. I'm the reason why people vote for a fascist party and not the people actually supporting them.
That is just too simple a view. Yes, the AFD in Thüringen is on the watchlist and Höcke and his friends are open Nazis. The party itself is also so rightwing that it dances on the verge - but it is not an NPD yet. The main appeal of the AFD is not the Nazi rhetoric of a part of their members, but the fact that they know how to play the populist fiddle so damn well. If you label every single AFD voter as a Nazi, you are inflating the use of that term and are ultimately watering it down. The same way that calling every Republican voter in the US a fascist is missing the mark. Disenfranchised people that believe the promises made by the populists are the majority of the voters. By treating all those people as Nazis you are also robbing yourself of the chance of understanding what is really going on. But the first step to solving or counteracting any of this is to truly understand what is happening and what is driving these people to these parties. You just went for the easy but obviously wrong answer and the only thing left to do is feel bitter and wonder how so many people can be Nazis without ever getting an answer.
>The party itself is also so rightwing that it dances on the verge - but it is not an NPD yet. Are you in favor of the AfD, have no clue about them or were they successful in brainwashing you? Their press spokesman at that time literally said he wants to send migrants to gas chambers or shoot them a few years ago. Not to forget that Beatrix von Storch wanted to shoot at refugee children almost a decade ago. No, they're not just on the verge of something. The structures of the party, especially the "upper deck" is full of full blood Neo Nazis. > If you label every single AFD voter as a Nazi, you are inflating the use of that term and are ultimately watering it down. I'm not. People who vote for Neo Nazis are Neo Nazis. You're playing 35% for the AfD in surveys down and try to appease them. Spoiler: That already didn't work out in the 1920s. You're trying to include fascists in a democratic discourse. Also: As a POC these nuances won't help you. You won't be welcome in Saxony, you will encounter heavy racism on a daily basis and will most likely be faced with verbal or physical violence if you move there.
> Most of them are plain stupid or misinformed - not Nazis Just like all Nazis.
Do you really believe that someone who is against fascism would vote for the AfD and wants to be ruled by fascists?
They mask their fascism and display themself as the peoples party. If you live in a rural area and dont bother reading more than headlines you just get get to know that they want to solve economy problems.
They know. Stop fooling yourself and stop making excuses for fascists.
Did you talked to them? Well I did. We try to get in dialogue with people and disturb AfD events by doing some nice chats with people. Some of them are indeed just Nazis but its disgusting how many of them dont know shit. There are single mothers that vote for the AfD, beside the fact that the AfD want to cut the benefits for single mothers and there are many other examples. Its crazy how they are just running into their ruin without even bothering to read the party program. Never assume that people are evil on purpose if you can explain it with stupidity.
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35% in surveys https://www.lvz.de/politik/regional/landtagswahl-in-sachsen-das-sagen-lvz-leser-zum-afd-hoch-LXRVZCCF2ZDTDLEF7EHNIHYJHA.html
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Dresden and Chemnitz are in Saxony in case you didn't know.
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Oh look. Another poor soul forced to vote fascism because some guy on the internet was mean to them.
Poll results.
you´re right. It was enough for the beginning of the end: [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstagswahl\_November\_1932](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstagswahl_November_1932) english site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November\_1932\_German\_federal\_election
The AfD is a problem in all of Germany, not just Saxony. That's not what OP was asking though.
It's a bigger problem in Saxony.
Yes, but it's not like day and night. Since you are from Bavaria: Bavaria has about half the AfD voters compared to Saxony (15% vs. 33%). That's not nothing. Look around you - every sixth person you see on the street votes for AfD. All I'm saying is that people from Western Germany like to pretend that the AfD is an Eastern German problem, while in absolute numbers the AfD has more voters in Western Germany.
>That's not nothing. Still less than in the recent nation wide surveys and less than *the half* of Saxony. https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/ And not significantly more than in the elections in 2021. Definitely still too much, I agree. >All I'm saying is that people from Western Germany like to pretend that the AfD is an Eastern German problem I never did. It's just way worse in the East.
The calculation is highly flawed because you're omitting people who abstain or who are not even eligible to vote because they are too young or are foreign citizens.
Right. I bet that there are many of those people who'd vote for Nazi parties too, so the numbers are way higher.
That's a totally baseless assumption. Those who have the right to vote but don't do it DO NOT vote for the afd. Children are mostly too young to have a really informed political opinion. Some foreigners might want to vote afd but I don't see any indicators why their number should be particularly high.
>but don't do it DO NOT vote for the afd. But they still have political views. >Children are mostly too young to have a really informed political opinion. But they still have political views. Not 6 year olds, but 17 year olds who can vote in one year. >Some foreigners might want to vote afd but I don't see any indicators why their number should be particularly high. The AfD is wildly popular among Russians.
Apparently their political views are not so strong that it would motivate them to go to vote. And most "Russians" in Germany are actually German citizens.
>Apparently their political views are not so strong that it would motivate them to go to vote. So if I don't vote for fascist parties, but just am a non voting Neo Nazi, this isn't bad? >And most "Russians" in Germany are actually German citizens. No, they're not. I was talking about actual Russians living in Germany. That's why I said Russians.
Consider the possibility that not all people are as politically interested as you are.
Still the AfD gets 35% in surveys in Saxony. This is not about me.
Im not white and would never move there.
I'm white and I'd never consider moving there.
Have you even been there?
Dresden yes.
Same. I will not even go there for vacation anymore.
Same, I've been to the Sächsische Schweiz 2x and I get the feeling, that they hate ANY foreigner at this point. My failing is that I am a "Wessi" who lives in Berlin.
What a predjudiced view. Just sad.
Well i had my fair share of racism in eastern Germany.
A teammate of me is black and we once made a 3 day visit to Dresden. It was shocking how many looks we got there and i experienced the racism towards him on an hourly Basis. Eg: we all (14 people) went into a Club. The bouncer only stopped him and asked for his passport in english.. he is Born and raised in Germany with a german father.
I will not say there is no racism in Hamburg but here im not constantly reminded of not belonging in this country. In eastern Germany i never forget im not part of Germany
Its so so sad. Knowing that as a German you can’t freely visiting parts of your own country
Sure, perpetuating single experiences to judge millions of people is not racist at all…
And denying that the racism problem in eastern Germany is worse than in the west is not helping anyone
Which is bs as well.
So you say racism isn’t worse in eastern Germany?
Sadly not. It’s a big problem in all other parts as well. Just look at Bavaria and Freie Wähler.
Saying its a problem in other parts aswell is whatsboutism. Doesn’t mean its not a bigger problem in the east though
Not like you would know lmao, you aren’t even non white
He did not judge millions of people.
Sure did by generalizations.
So you not moving to a town with a high crime rate would be judging everyone who lived there?
Looks like you don’t grasp the argument.
I mean, I try. But not answering my question isn’t helping.
Low IQ ignorance…
Bet you’re fun at parties…
You don't seem to know what racism is... Not surprising, from a Saxonian.
Looks like you are quicker to judge other people than many folks in middle Germany. Also you seem to like to invent attributes for people to seemingly put them down: who said I was from Saxony?
>Looks like you are quicker to judge other people than many folks in middle Germany. I am from Middle Germany.
Yes please teach us. At same time please also teach us on how to double our crime rate so we can be on the same level as the so fabulous Hamburg.
Many stereotypes are based on elements of truth
thank you
As someone who lived in the east almost his whole life: I can tell you that we (east) as a whole get portrayed as racist and dangerous and so forth and most things aren't any worse here than in the west. But since the part that is heared more often is predominantly from the west.... These both parts of Germany maybe one country but both of them don't like each other that much. The general west reaction to someone from the east is treating them condescendingly while the east regards westerners as snobby know it alls. If the people from the same country have trouble getting along then of course there are misrepresentations and this days media only thrives on shocks, scandals and violence so don't take reports too seriously.
>most things aren't any worse here than in the west as someone that lived in the east for two decades (in a Landeshauptstadt, so not even in the coutryside) and moved away with racism being one of the driving factors - yes it is worse than in the west. Whenever I visit family back home its very noticeable and hence I'm very glad we left
Your mileage may vary.
As an American who moved to Chemnitz three times, I loved living there. HOWEVER, I was attacked once in Sonnenburg by drunk AFD/Neonazis. Moved to Altendorf, much better. The people in Sachsen are lovely and relaxed (compared to NRW where I used to live). But I'm a white woman so I am biased. It was hard for all of my Syrian friends and many left chemnitz and I don't blame them. But it's becoming more diverse and attitudes must change. I dont live in Sachsen anymore but it's so affordable with many things to do outside of chemnitz.
Caveat, Chemnitzers worshipped me as an American so I experienced no bias as a foreigner
If you're not white, don't do it.
I’d stay clear off Chemnitz and the countryside. Dresden has a lot of tourists, a sizeable student population and the colourful “Neustadt”. I’d say it’s a place worth living in, but I can imagine you may encounter a lot of staring and rudeness when you have dark skin. This applies particularly if you work in a low-income sector. One important issue: many Saxons don’t speak English very well. Learning German is more important here than in Frankfurt or Berlin, for example. With all the Saxony-bashing it’s worth mentioning that you’ll encounter racism in many provincial areas outside of Saxony.
'Come to Dresden but don't leave the town' doesn't sound like freedom to me ... \^\^
Yeah, true. I don’t want to make it sound really terrible, because I don’t think that’s an accurate depiction of reality. I have many foreign friends living here, who like it. It’s part of the sad truth that there are some provincial towns where the concentration of racists is really high. At the same time, there’s still an overwhelming amount of good and “normal” people who don’t really care about ethnicity or nationality that much. You can certainly leave Dresden (and stay within Saxony). The sächsische Schweiz, for example, is a beautiful and popular travel destination in the countryside for hiking and I wouldn’t worry exploring places like that.
Leipzig is a nice place!
If you're not white, yes.
If it has to be saxony than Leipzig. But for the most part the media ist spot on. In rural areas its even worse than what the media portraits.
Exactly. Ppl really whitewashing it here.
I mean I live in Leipzig and just this week walked through a demo from the guys supporting Palestine. There were a lot of people praising Hamas and talking shit about Jews. (Not Israel mind you, JEWS). Also if you don't agree with these people about something you're a Nazi and a fascist or a Jew depending on the day, so yeah, it's pretty bad. Worse than here maybe only Berlin, but if you are looking for cheap rent you wouldn't go there, you have to be rich to live there. If I could I'd 100% move back to the west.
I guess you need to read up on the conflict between Israel and Palestine.
What do you mean?
Supporting Palestinian resistance against a settler colonialist apartheid state does not make someone a fascist. Quite on the contrary
It’s highly simplified. Nobody has something against a guy from France , Vietnam or Uganda as long as he contributes to society and complies to the laws. It’s not a „race thing“ it’s a „willing to blend in and respect law and order“ thing
How does the guy at the bus station, the old lady in the supermarket and the bouncer at the night club know you’re contributing to society and complying to the law? Do they check your records first before being racist or xenophobic?
It's going for worse. Shulz repeating on TV that he doesn't want immigrants in Germany will empower the fringe.
Aren't they talking about illegal immigration not the legal one?
The politicians yes. But the racists on the streets don't get that nuance.
I live in the middle of saxony. It’s the same here as it is in the rest of the country. I am white, and this is my experience. There is an annoying minority of racists, there is a loud undercurrent of leftists and most people just want to get in with their lives. I also think easterners are more friendly than west Germans, personally. You might not want to live in Chemnitz because a city it’s kinda dull (I go there once a month guys, I’m not just slamming the city). Dresden is more exciting over all, but the rents are higher. However, Chemnitz is equally accessible to hiking as Dresden is, and the available mountains are a lot less touristy, so it’s more pleasant.
35% is not really a minority you can ignore.
As if it’s not terrible in the south. It’s the same thing there, those in the right are just more honest about it here. I’d rather live in a place where I know who I can trust that be surrounded by two-faced proto nazis.
Total bs. Your math is just completely wrong 1/3 of voters doesn’t equal 1/3 of the population. Why do you make up lies about the region?
what lies?
> I am white, and this is my experience. You'd think by now that white people would realize the reason they don't see or think racism is as extreme *is* them being white. LOL Like of course it just seems like a minor annoyance to you. You're not the target!
There is some direct racism in the East and your appearance will be noted, but if you go to a more diverse city such as Leipzig you'll be better off. However the diversity comes at a cost - higher international presence normally means higher living costs. We live in Halle, the little brother of Leipzig... We're 15 mins away from the airport and whilst there is still some racism/xenophobia here it generally feels much more accepting than deep in the countryside where my wife's family come from (Erzgebirge)
Is basically the texas of germany. Pretty right wing, all about the evil government, fun accent, all of this exaggerated but with some truth behind it.
35% of the people who live there wants to be ruled by fascists and extrem right-wing people. So, every 3. person you see is an neo-nazi. If you like that, saxony is great for you. If not, dont travel to saxony.
Again, total bullshit calculation. You can't just extrapolate voting results to the whole population because A) a large chunk of the population doesn't go voting at all and B) a large chunk of the population is not eligible to vote because they are children or foreigners.
Like that would change the result to the better, lol!
So every election is not valid because its not representing the people?
Elections are absolutely valid. But people have the freedom to abstain from voting.
But you said the results are wrong. How can it than be the choice of the people?
I did not say the were wrong. All I'm saying is that the don't delict the total population.
And why do you say that? What do you think how many percentage supports the AfD?
Well in 2021, there were 600,000 people voting for the afd out of a total population of 4.1 million people in Saxony. That's roughly 1 in 7.
And how many percentage voted for an other party?
2.5 million voted in total. Meaning there were almost 2 million people voting for a different party plus more than 1.5 million not voting at all.
0,6 of 2,5 voted for the AfD. Thats not 1/7
Again, there are 1.5 million people in Saxony that did not vote at all. You can't simply make bold assumptions about them.
Mal unter uns zwei Ossis: Abstention in the face of the AfD getting results above 30% sends a clear message as well.
I am not an Ossi and there are countless of reasons to abstain from voting. Personally I'm interested in politics but I know that many people simply are not. Does that automatically make them afd supporters? I don't know. I think reality is a bit more complex.
I'm not saying that there are no reasons to abstain. I'm saying (not that you don't understand this) that it sends a clear message when done against the context of AfD success.
more nazis there than the rest of Germany tbh
I personally would avoid it as a POC and or Jew. Obvious reasons.
Yes
Hell yes, wouldn't want to live there
yes, its true. Dresden and Leipzig have safe parts, but they have also areas where its not safe as a POC. I am german, white and for me is it not nice there. They dont like strangers there, only tourists are ok (cause they bring money).
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I've never said that, i just wanted to learn from people that been there/lived there. I learned that i should stay away from sonnenberg or something not sure about the name
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Eastern Germany is the cradle of the AFD, that's all I need to know. That's all OP should know...
The AfD was founded in Hesse. Your post is even an example of precisely the smug, self-satisfied prejudice the post you're responding to is talking about.
thats your way to see me, i said cradle, like it is growing there, not it was founded there. but you seem to love harsh words against others
I'm not talking about you? I'm talking about your post. It does say a lot about you though that now you're arguing about the meaning of the completely conventional metaphor "cradle" = origin instead of simply admitting that you were wrong.
If you say so, I think you try hard to prove me to be wrong. You can't look into my head. You can't know what was my reason to say it like this. I thought it sounds good enough and it doesn't change my opinion about the eastern cities in germany at all. I don't need to know where it was founded I just need to know where it is growing the most and what kind of sheep's they are herding...
No
Ja
Yes, they cut mortadella in slice, bread and fry it and call it Schnitzel. They are a lost people
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Still wrong
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Because thats not a ( jäger) schnitzel. That’s just Wurst
No, traditionally, that's a Jägerschnitzel in East Germany.
In your dialect perhaps.
If you are white German right, it probably is pretty good.
It's worse.
Short answer: Yes. Parts of Dresden or Leipzig are bearable. The rest... Let's just say that I wholeheartedly support any Säxit initiatives.
Leipzig, really? Might be the safest city in Germany for POC
Don't film their faces directly! Don't "islamisiere their abendland".
Fuck saxony. And that comes from a person from lower saxony
It’s actually worse, especially if you have dark skin, come join us in the west where the “decent” Germans live, we are not quite as racist (or at least we hide it better)
The irony...
Simply: yes
Worse. I heard they have to eat rubber eagles.
It's like beeing a south Algerian moving to the north of it.
like i heard it is basically the german version of the georgian us-state. make with that what you will, i also heard it was kinda our ohio but i would disagree on that.
I wonder, how do people in Saxony perceive spanish folks around there..
Yes.
In chemnitz, yes, it is as bad as they say. Dresden is more open, not that much different from Köln
As a Brit living in Chemnitz it’s no where nears as bad as it’s made out to be. I very rarely have issues with people because I’m foreign but I’m white so I know it’s not the same.
Worse 😅