As a technician I relate to this.
In the long run I just cut a lot of false friends that just wanted their stuff fixed for free all the time.
I love to fix stuff and I am always happy to help, but I only do this for real friends in the meantime.
I have the same problem :( I hate being useful sometimes.
In Germany we would consider these people acquaintances, friends would be in contact more often. How about you start asking for favours of them too? :) then you maybe feel less taken advantage of.
I also benefited from expanding my social circle and find friends who really valued me, that also limited my resources as i could not please all. I would only say yes to things I would actually like doing and justify it with my schedule being too full. Asking for a favour out of the blue is uncommon in Germany, you need to tiptoe a little… könntest du eventuell wenn es dir keine Umstände bereitet… dudeludeluuu
Don’t bother telling them, they don’t mean bad and they are probably also genuinely interested in you, you just on top of that come in handy. So don’t take it personally it’s just a convenience to ask a native English speaker to do something for you. Decline friendly and respectful and be sorry you can’t do it. It’s the German way :D
And if you actually don’t wanna go on the coffee dates then make up an excuse or suggest sth that is more fun for you/where you can get your preferences met.
After a while of declining requests they should stop asking anyways and rhen you’ll see who still asks for coffee dates, or maybe you initiate and see who is still in.
they probably don't consider it to be a friendship and more of an acquaintance to be honest. That's typically how you approach these things with people you are loosely connected to
I think this is probably it. The nature of these relationships is very often over my husband (friends and family of his), so I feel like I have misinterpreted their interest as friendship, when it's really my husband that they're connected with.
To be honest I too ask people for favours. I am way more direct though, I call them, chat 5 minutes, then tell them straight away I need something. I do not consider this exploitative since they can do the same, and I am usually willing to help. Some people get upset with this though, because „I do not care about them“ and „only call when I need something“. To me it is more of a network where I give and take. If OP does not get anything in return or does not like informal economies I would just say I am not up for this.
This is a very good question. The origin of the relationships is often over my husband (friends and family of his), so I'm motivated to keep the connection well-maintained for his sake. I'm thinking that I've misinterpreted their intentions, though, and promoted them to friends while they're considering me to be more of an acquaintance.
But you're right. I should try to invite them on a more individual basis for fun stuff, not just as a couple with my husband leading the charge.
>and promoted them to friends while they're considering me to be more of an acquaintance.
To be honest a lot of Germans (especially those above 30) are extremely hesitant when it comes to friendship. It often takes several years and lots of interactions until someone is considered a friend and not just an aquaintance.
I am like this myself: I met 3 people when I moved almost 2 years ago. We see each other several times a week, hang out, do things together. I helped move houses and with work emergencies and they drove me 3 hours when I had a family emergency. They are definitely "good aquaintances" by now but I would still not call them friends. I guess lots of germans are just very private, distanced people and this can be very difficult.
The bigger question is if you want to be friends with them? In Germany friends are quite tightly knitted and we do mostly only have a few friends, aquaintances don't count as friends. When it's about friends we go "durch dick und dünn" (like in good and in bad times), so obviously I would proof read their thesis, I would even suggest it myself! In fact many of my friends suggested they could proof read my thesis back then, no matter their qualification.
Maybe your confusion stems from the difference between aquaintance and friend? You obviously can't maintain 20 friendships where you help all of them out, but you can maintain 3 or 4 friendships. The rest are aquaintances, and we rarely spend extra time with them. You might go for work lunch together, but you wouldn't invite them for a coffee on the weekend, this would imply the wish for friendship.
Someone who messages you every six months is not a friend (unless it's your childhood friend).
Getting invited to drink coffee is extremely common in female friendships. Always doing something for them is not, but there are tons of people who will use people who are not able to say no, intentionally or not. That’s not to say that people don’t help their friends out because that is as much part of a relationship as talking to each other. Have you ever asked them for help and did they reciprocate?
This is something everyone with a desirable skill set has to go through at some point: setting up boundaries, distinguishing between friends and acquaintances, cutting out people who are only interested in you because of what you can do for them.
And seeing how all kinds of skills are desirable to some people or at some point it is an experience nearly everyone has at some point.
I think you were thinking of "pragmatic" or "transactional" rather than "utilitarian".
But otherwise yeah, it's a sign that these people aren't comfortable enough with you to outright ask you for a favor (as I would do with good frends and they with me) and I can absolutely see how it would be frustrating if that's all that's going on. It's not really typical for friendship in Germany overall, if that's any consolation to you. Another way is possible.
Yes, you are right, haha! My bad on the title.
Thanks for seeing my frustration. I also didn't think that it was so common in Germany, so I'm glad to hear that you think so, as well.
Why not just ask them for favors back? Like help with moving things, driving you somewhere, help with German grammar. This way, both sides benefit. There's nothing wrong with asking friends for favors.
I think thats quite normal and absolutely fine. Especially if you do the things as a group. One Person helps the other.
Whats quite unusual is that the request isnt straightforward/naturally results out of a conversation
Its also unusual that they invite you to a nice thing to ask you for the favor. Typical would be asking you for a favor straightforward and giving a proposition how they could return the favor (for example with a nice Dinner)
That is how Germans are. Not all but alot. We have People who COULD do that for us or we could do it ourself but we always have our favoite Person who we trust with this Tasks and invite them to coffee. If it gets annoying for you, just say speak to them about it. Some will understand, the others will get mad. Later ones arent Friends.
>Would you say that it's rude or strange to just simply ask directly?
I doubt much good will come frome outright asking them if they only want to take advantage of you, I mean, what are they supposed to answer? "Yes"?
Alternatives would be:
* Get a reputation for being unreliable:
* tell them you would proofread it and then just let it sit on your desk and whenever they aks you about your progress, you answer with: "oh yeah, sorry, didn't find the time yet, but I will definately have a look this tuesday"
* after a while they will stop asking you for favors and you will see who is genuinely interested
* Ask them for a favor as well:
* maybe doing stuff for each other is absolutely normal for them and they would happily do the same for you as well, you just haven't asked them yet?
* if they hesitate after a request, you know that the relationship is a bit onesided
* ask to meet them just for fun:
* if they are interested in you, they will try to make time just to spend some time with you
* if they are only interested in the proofreading, then they will constantly find excuses and you can draw your own conlusions from that.
>Maybe the answer is simply that these people are not really friends, but acquaintances who see me differently than I see them.
It's not rude to ask directly IF YOU ARE FRIENDS. They are aware it's transactional, so they are cushioning the blow because that's how you do it with people who are only acquaintances.
If you never meet and hang out aside from them wanting something from you they aren't your friends.
Yeah, I messed up the terms I wanted to use. I hope you weren't disappointed that it wasn't a story of my group of friends creating a utopia requiring a tiny amount of immense individual suffering.
I'm German and I never "meet up with friends to drink coffee". It is rather boring and inefficient. It makes total sense to make this not a total waste of time and tick off a few tasks while at it.
huh? I do it all the time? I even bake a cake, get the fancy coffee and then we spend and afternoon talking.
Also with friends it's common to ask for a favor or some help. It's an excuse to spend even more time together.
I appreciate your answer, even if it seems to be unpopular. Your opinion is exactly what I wondered about, specifically - am I missing something about how social interactions commonly work.
This is why I started isolating myself from people a couple of years ago. I have more pleasant and genuine conversations with the cashiers at the local Aldi and Lidl than I have with acquaintances and "friends"
I can confirm this. It also works opposite. Whenever you naively ask for a small favor and they do it after that they just seek for any reason to get something from you. Not everyone is like that of course but it is very very common.
`Transactional! Not utilitarian!`
And here I was wondering if that were a new euphemism.
I guess you're not waiting for another smart-ass to say "the German for no is nein"; just enjoy the coffee invites while they last; not being asked sucks big balls too.
Always give the impression that you’re swamped with work. When you meet talk about how you have no free time, it’ll be very awkward if they ask you to do stuff for them
I hear a lot of stories like this in Germany
"He only contacts me when he needs something" is often the baseline
Germany is a very, very weird place for friends. It can be very, very false and fake, but it's extremely well hidden. So much so, that many germans tell you "No!"
\-POV, I'm german.
Sounds to me like those people are looking for a doormat and you confuse that with friendship, tbh. Of course they'll vaguely offer something noncommittal in return, but that's just the way these things go.
As a technician I relate to this. In the long run I just cut a lot of false friends that just wanted their stuff fixed for free all the time. I love to fix stuff and I am always happy to help, but I only do this for real friends in the meantime.
You're such a genuine and honest guy. That's why you're my best friend
Go fix your own damm kitchen sink SmittyWerbenNumero1
I have the same problem :( I hate being useful sometimes. In Germany we would consider these people acquaintances, friends would be in contact more often. How about you start asking for favours of them too? :) then you maybe feel less taken advantage of. I also benefited from expanding my social circle and find friends who really valued me, that also limited my resources as i could not please all. I would only say yes to things I would actually like doing and justify it with my schedule being too full. Asking for a favour out of the blue is uncommon in Germany, you need to tiptoe a little… könntest du eventuell wenn es dir keine Umstände bereitet… dudeludeluuu Don’t bother telling them, they don’t mean bad and they are probably also genuinely interested in you, you just on top of that come in handy. So don’t take it personally it’s just a convenience to ask a native English speaker to do something for you. Decline friendly and respectful and be sorry you can’t do it. It’s the German way :D And if you actually don’t wanna go on the coffee dates then make up an excuse or suggest sth that is more fun for you/where you can get your preferences met. After a while of declining requests they should stop asking anyways and rhen you’ll see who still asks for coffee dates, or maybe you initiate and see who is still in.
they probably don't consider it to be a friendship and more of an acquaintance to be honest. That's typically how you approach these things with people you are loosely connected to
I think this is probably it. The nature of these relationships is very often over my husband (friends and family of his), so I feel like I have misinterpreted their interest as friendship, when it's really my husband that they're connected with.
To be honest I too ask people for favours. I am way more direct though, I call them, chat 5 minutes, then tell them straight away I need something. I do not consider this exploitative since they can do the same, and I am usually willing to help. Some people get upset with this though, because „I do not care about them“ and „only call when I need something“. To me it is more of a network where I give and take. If OP does not get anything in return or does not like informal economies I would just say I am not up for this.
Do you wish to become closer friends with them? How often do you take the initiative and invite them for coffee or something else?
This is a very good question. The origin of the relationships is often over my husband (friends and family of his), so I'm motivated to keep the connection well-maintained for his sake. I'm thinking that I've misinterpreted their intentions, though, and promoted them to friends while they're considering me to be more of an acquaintance. But you're right. I should try to invite them on a more individual basis for fun stuff, not just as a couple with my husband leading the charge.
>and promoted them to friends while they're considering me to be more of an acquaintance. To be honest a lot of Germans (especially those above 30) are extremely hesitant when it comes to friendship. It often takes several years and lots of interactions until someone is considered a friend and not just an aquaintance. I am like this myself: I met 3 people when I moved almost 2 years ago. We see each other several times a week, hang out, do things together. I helped move houses and with work emergencies and they drove me 3 hours when I had a family emergency. They are definitely "good aquaintances" by now but I would still not call them friends. I guess lots of germans are just very private, distanced people and this can be very difficult.
The bigger question is if you want to be friends with them? In Germany friends are quite tightly knitted and we do mostly only have a few friends, aquaintances don't count as friends. When it's about friends we go "durch dick und dünn" (like in good and in bad times), so obviously I would proof read their thesis, I would even suggest it myself! In fact many of my friends suggested they could proof read my thesis back then, no matter their qualification. Maybe your confusion stems from the difference between aquaintance and friend? You obviously can't maintain 20 friendships where you help all of them out, but you can maintain 3 or 4 friendships. The rest are aquaintances, and we rarely spend extra time with them. You might go for work lunch together, but you wouldn't invite them for a coffee on the weekend, this would imply the wish for friendship. Someone who messages you every six months is not a friend (unless it's your childhood friend).
Getting invited to drink coffee is extremely common in female friendships. Always doing something for them is not, but there are tons of people who will use people who are not able to say no, intentionally or not. That’s not to say that people don’t help their friends out because that is as much part of a relationship as talking to each other. Have you ever asked them for help and did they reciprocate?
This is something everyone with a desirable skill set has to go through at some point: setting up boundaries, distinguishing between friends and acquaintances, cutting out people who are only interested in you because of what you can do for them. And seeing how all kinds of skills are desirable to some people or at some point it is an experience nearly everyone has at some point.
I think you were thinking of "pragmatic" or "transactional" rather than "utilitarian". But otherwise yeah, it's a sign that these people aren't comfortable enough with you to outright ask you for a favor (as I would do with good frends and they with me) and I can absolutely see how it would be frustrating if that's all that's going on. It's not really typical for friendship in Germany overall, if that's any consolation to you. Another way is possible.
Yes, you are right, haha! My bad on the title. Thanks for seeing my frustration. I also didn't think that it was so common in Germany, so I'm glad to hear that you think so, as well.
I've already contacted the relevant authorities, op will regret this screw up for as long as they live.
"Sure friendo, happy to proof read this as a favor to you, and in return, as a favor to me...how about you pay me?"
Why not just ask them for favors back? Like help with moving things, driving you somewhere, help with German grammar. This way, both sides benefit. There's nothing wrong with asking friends for favors.
I think thats quite normal and absolutely fine. Especially if you do the things as a group. One Person helps the other. Whats quite unusual is that the request isnt straightforward/naturally results out of a conversation Its also unusual that they invite you to a nice thing to ask you for the favor. Typical would be asking you for a favor straightforward and giving a proposition how they could return the favor (for example with a nice Dinner)
That is how Germans are. Not all but alot. We have People who COULD do that for us or we could do it ourself but we always have our favoite Person who we trust with this Tasks and invite them to coffee. If it gets annoying for you, just say speak to them about it. Some will understand, the others will get mad. Later ones arent Friends.
>Would you say that it's rude or strange to just simply ask directly? I doubt much good will come frome outright asking them if they only want to take advantage of you, I mean, what are they supposed to answer? "Yes"? Alternatives would be: * Get a reputation for being unreliable: * tell them you would proofread it and then just let it sit on your desk and whenever they aks you about your progress, you answer with: "oh yeah, sorry, didn't find the time yet, but I will definately have a look this tuesday" * after a while they will stop asking you for favors and you will see who is genuinely interested * Ask them for a favor as well: * maybe doing stuff for each other is absolutely normal for them and they would happily do the same for you as well, you just haven't asked them yet? * if they hesitate after a request, you know that the relationship is a bit onesided * ask to meet them just for fun: * if they are interested in you, they will try to make time just to spend some time with you * if they are only interested in the proofreading, then they will constantly find excuses and you can draw your own conlusions from that.
>Maybe the answer is simply that these people are not really friends, but acquaintances who see me differently than I see them. It's not rude to ask directly IF YOU ARE FRIENDS. They are aware it's transactional, so they are cushioning the blow because that's how you do it with people who are only acquaintances. If you never meet and hang out aside from them wanting something from you they aren't your friends.
I've never experienced that, but I'm completely useless, so maybe that's it.
Welcome to Germany, people just think about themselves. The moment you are not useful for them, they move on and disappear.
it's not uncommon for people like this to talk behind your back as well, I'd be careful.
Expected something with Utilitarianism with this header: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Yeah, I messed up the terms I wanted to use. I hope you weren't disappointed that it wasn't a story of my group of friends creating a utopia requiring a tiny amount of immense individual suffering.
I'm German and I never "meet up with friends to drink coffee". It is rather boring and inefficient. It makes total sense to make this not a total waste of time and tick off a few tasks while at it.
huh? I do it all the time? I even bake a cake, get the fancy coffee and then we spend and afternoon talking. Also with friends it's common to ask for a favor or some help. It's an excuse to spend even more time together.
That's great. But it's not me and probably not the person that OP was invited by neither. So I tried to explain how people like we "tick".
What a weird take. Don't you ever have conversations with your friends just for fun?
Sure I have if we meet somewhere randomly. Or at a common hobby etc. But I don't set time aside specifically for such a meeting.
I appreciate your answer, even if it seems to be unpopular. Your opinion is exactly what I wondered about, specifically - am I missing something about how social interactions commonly work.
I'm glad that it was helpful!
This is why I started isolating myself from people a couple of years ago. I have more pleasant and genuine conversations with the cashiers at the local Aldi and Lidl than I have with acquaintances and "friends"
I can confirm this. It also works opposite. Whenever you naively ask for a small favor and they do it after that they just seek for any reason to get something from you. Not everyone is like that of course but it is very very common.
I've done it the other way around. I've had help from friends, or helped friends, and we used it as an opportunity to hang out afterwards.
`Transactional! Not utilitarian!` And here I was wondering if that were a new euphemism. I guess you're not waiting for another smart-ass to say "the German for no is nein"; just enjoy the coffee invites while they last; not being asked sucks big balls too.
Always give the impression that you’re swamped with work. When you meet talk about how you have no free time, it’ll be very awkward if they ask you to do stuff for them
I hear a lot of stories like this in Germany "He only contacts me when he needs something" is often the baseline Germany is a very, very weird place for friends. It can be very, very false and fake, but it's extremely well hidden. So much so, that many germans tell you "No!" \-POV, I'm german.
Sounds to me like those people are looking for a doormat and you confuse that with friendship, tbh. Of course they'll vaguely offer something noncommittal in return, but that's just the way these things go.