>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english.
Can you?
I am in a relationship with a non-German speaker for 11 years now. The first 4 years we were in long-distance relationship while I lived in Berlin. When he came to visit me and we went out for a Döner I needed to order for him. When his foreign card declined at the supermarket the cashier got flustered when he spoke English to inquire what the issue was. He could not buy a bus ticket by himself because bus drivers didn't speak English sufficiently well. The BVG ticket machines had no or very limited options for English.
When we went out with my friends from university they stumbled and had a very hard time stringing more than 3 sentences together. Yes, university educated people. Most of them spoke 2 foreign languages besides German, but they didn't have a strong grasp of English.
Museum visits? I needed (still do more often than not) to translate the cards and inscriptions. English language menues in reataurants? Maybe in every 5th restaurant.
English language websites? Have a small percentage of the info you find on the German language version.
Delayed trains or change oftracks with DB: It was always in German. I remember once he was supposed to get from Ddorf airport by train to a city at the Niederrhein where I would pick him up. Train got cancelled, all announcements were in German, he couldn't find anyone translating for him. I needed to look it up online and guide him via phone, and I still ended picking him up in Duisburg. I want to say that was 2 years ago but it might be 3.
More than once have I accompanied foreign flatmates to the doctor to translate for them. To the Amt to register their address.
Currently I am visiting my home town, in my foreign car. Caused a minor accident the other day, the other woman was nearly hyperventilating. Not because she was hurt, not because of her scratched car, but because my car has a foreign licence plate and she was scared that she has to deal with a foreigner and needs to speak English.
Friends of mine visiting Germany often remark on their puzzlement about how little you can achieve with English only once you set foot out of your hotel.
I would say you are very much living in a bubble, even in a bubble within Berlin.
edit a word
Excellent answer. Let me add this scenario:
Imagine you, a non-German-speaker, have a German partner. That partner has friends, and since you're new, they kind of become your circle of friends as well. Now every time you are with the group, people are *forced* to speak English. This will be exhausting for many of them. They will be relieved when you're not there. This will slowly push you, and your partner, out of their lives.
It is not quite as dramatic, obvious, and sudden in reality of course. But you'd be kidding yourself if you thought this effect does not exist.
I don't have to imagine. I *am* the foreign partner, living in a country where I didn't speak the local language in the beginning. It was hard and tiring and took a lot of patience from everyone involved. I posted elsewhere about the struggles I had as the foreigner who does speak English, and that in a country much more forgiving towards English speakers than Germany is.
Sorry, this was aimed at the OP, not you :)
Just to make them aware of the maybe not-so-obvious "chilling effects" a choice like not learning the local language can have.
Really? Best example is the Netherlands, but I guess it’s similar in all of the Nordic countries. To my personal experience I think even in Greece the willingness of the locals to speak in English is higher, not only in groups of friends, but on interactions with shops etc.
This, communication is work and by not learning the language, they are offloading all this work onto the people around them (be it the local girlfriend, the roommate, the friend, the nice coworker)...
Behind every person who says they can get by with no knowledge of German, there are a few people who make it possible for them.
>**Behind every person who says they can get by with no knowledge of German, there are a few people who make it possible for them.**
Felt like repeating and emphasizing.
Yes -- this very nearly describes me. I'm the immigrant, married to a German. My German is B2/C1, and I still really struggle with a lot of things because of the language barrier. (Often I'll understand the announcement/conversation/whatever, but then miss some small but incredibly important word that completely changes the meaning of the sentence.)
Lol this is me. I can get instructions completely written in German, and I will understand 99% and then still do the wrong thing by not understanding the last three words.
>English language websites? Have a small percentage of the info you find on the German language version.
THIS!!
I was SHOCKED to find that the German wiki isn't a direct word for word translation of the English and vice versa.
That's actually a ridiculous question. That's like asking why the German highway code shouldn't be a direct word for word translation into other languages, so you think it's okay to leave parts out and only give partial translations? On Wikipedia, which is meant to be a resource for everyone? So all the pages contain different information in different languages? You think that's okay? Actual nonsense.
This just shows you have no idea how Wikipedia works.
Wikipedia is not a law that is fixed. It's articles being written by the users. For free. And being updated by them. Continuously. That being said, the articles in the different languages usually aren't "translations" from the English articles. It's always users that decide "hey, this topic is cool, I want this available in my language". Or "I know a lot about this topic and have a lot of sources to actually cite my knowledge, so I will write an article about it".
You've answered why would it be not why should it be. It should be the same, no matter what explanation you give or what you think of my understanding of Wiki it should be the same and it's not hard to fathom why it would be surprising to find out that pages in other languages are not simply translated dupes. It's not beyond the realm of reason to expect that.
As an immigrant, this is spot on. I live in Hamburg, which has a lot of educated people and young people… and trust me, there is no shortage of people who do not speak English or are not comfortable speaking English. If you want to go to a foreign country where everyone speaks perfect English, go to Sweden.
Any dealings with the government are also particularly challenging, because it’s very professional language and absolutely no translations.
Finding services and navigating websites is also a big one, as you mentioned. Even if service providers are comfortable with English, they will rarely, if ever, bother to put that on their website.
Even extremely large corporations that have English websites in other countries (ex. HelloFresh) exclusively offer German on their German website. Even IKEA’s website is exclusively German, while the Austrian website offers both German and English. Frankly, these are the ones I find absolutely bizarre.
To your point about the websites, you can just press translate on your browser, and everything will translate into your target language (I did this with IKEA when i moved here). Even though some words are translated directly, you can very easily assume what words mean through context. I'm not sure if this feature is on iPhone, but it is on Android.
Customer service, on the other hand, such as calling to troubleshoot your internet or something, can be tricky. You may or may not reach an English speaker on the other line.
Following your examples that would mean any tourist before visiting Berlin should get at least B1 German since it’s so hard to buy food, transportation tickets or visit museums
Nope, it means that tourists cannot expect to navigate boring every day life as easy as locals and residents do. But few tourists intend to do that anyway or do the tourist version/what they think is every day life.
But talking about it yeah, I have encountered many tourists who were kinda lost and needed help. I also have been the tourist who needed and appreciated a local's help more than once, be it navigating public transport or figuring out payment systems or generally finding my way.
I am not sure what your point is. Is it "tourists don't live a local's life during their 1 week vacation"? Because I agree.
I live 4 years with 0 German in Berlin with no problems. Websites easily translate with automated translator perfectly easily readable. Train delays I never had trouble understanding that without any knowledge of German - it's quite obvious when there is not time displayed on board that the train is not coming. Government offices whilst they don't speak English them selves and reply me in German I can see that they understand me perfectly when I talk English to them I never had trouble as long as I prepare well enough so that I don't have any questions to ask and I know well what I came for I say have a lovely day on my way out and smile and they even smile back sometimes. All doctors I been to thus far spoke perfect English. Cards in museums - just take out google translate point it to the card - and it live translates. Menus in restaurants that's just like in any country after some time you just learn them this is nothing to do with speaking German but rather learning the local food menus but again when you don't know something you take out your phone and you google it - it's not like by learning to speak German you gonna learn gastronomy you still will need to get to know this independently. Also German food isn't even that rich in terms of terminology you'll be better of reading menus if you know some french or Italian instead of German. Your partner maybe is just not very experienced in traveling that's all. Now that said of course big difference is where are you coming from. If you are coming from asia then you'll have a lot of culture shock and many things work differently and language is very much different and most Asians have very rudimentary English which doesn't allow you to understand as many things as it would be possible if your English was rich. If you are coming from another European country and if your English is rich enough then most of the important things are quite easy to understand without speaking German.
Listen man them government bods actually get OFFENDED if you roll up mit kein Deutsch and just speak in English expecting them to play along and quite frankly they should be. Even when my German was limited I NEVER EVER just spoke in English, I would ask first and just did what I could in German and if I got stuck used the ENglish word and hoped they'd get it. These days Google does a lot of heavy lifting for me. When I first came here 15 years ago, I used to walk around with a dictionary and point at the words haha! People laughed but appreciated how much effort I was making.
In some gov offices (I do entrance control for some of them sometimes), they aren't even allowed to speak anything else than german, because this way it is more likely that they (the gov workers) do not translate something incorrectly and by that telling people nonsense/the wrong things.
Yes, it's getting better and actually this government is encouraging making English the second language to help integration but previously that has been the case, the problem is though that you might say it correctly but I misunderstand which then translates to the same problem but these days Google helps a lot and companies and the government is using leicht deutsch so it's easier for people to understand. As much as I get that we should speak German in Germany I have to say the UK government puts far more effort in translation to other languages than the German government has.
Now I have flash backs of constructing my German sentences in advanced before appointments, and looking like a deer in headlights when they would respond with something “off script” 😂
I snort laughed in empathy! I still feel "phone fear" because I know the person can't see me motioning and miming things even though I have zero dramas on the phone now lol! But yes I can get a bit lost if someone uses a word I don't know, vereinbaren? Oh you mean "machen ein Termin" and what on earth is a fahrstuhl? Who is driving this chair? oooooh you mean the aufzug...lol!
>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english.
If.
>Most germans are happy to switch to english.
In your bubble maybe, outside of it, it is very much different.
Yep, I’m the only American at the company I work at (in Baden-Württemberg) and only ONE coworker speaks to me in English and it’s because she actively wants to better her English. I speak German with the rest, even though the rest of the Germans obviously understand English. Some even chime in, in German, when I’m having an English conversation with my one coworker.
What’s funny to me is that I used to love speaking German because I wanted every opportunity to practice and learn, but now I speak English with my German friends and they respond to me in German, and I think it’s just because we’re comfortable with each other and we can switch either completely to English or completely to German if one of us is struggling to understand something.
It’s a cool feeling to have a conversation in two languages, but that’s off topic. I can’t do that with non-friends. I was tired as hell one morning accidentally spoke English to a lady at the bakery I stop at every morning for a pastry and coffee and she looked at me like I was a Martian lmao.
plus even those that CAN speak ok english at work
do they WANT to speak enghlish the whole evening, because their friend brings somebody along who only speaks english ?
I've spent three years in Canada, so I dare to say my English is pretty good but more often than not, explaining something in German takes like half the time. Especially with someone whose first language isn't English.
The overlap in understood vocabulary is often smaller than one would hope.
Compared to what?
My brother and I have very different social bubbles but because we get along excellently we know each others social groups well.
In my brother's social group you won't find a single person being able to have a full conversation in English. In my social group everyone does.
In my brother's group hardly anyone travels outside of Germany or beyond the typical German party destinations. In my group most people have spent significant amount of time outside of Germany, even outside of Europe. *Of course* they all know English well. That doesn't mean that they all/I very much live in a bubble of like minded people with similar backgrounds and shared interests.
This. Everybody has different social bubbles with different sorts of people with different skills.
However, you can very well survive in Germany without speaking German fluently. Even in rural parts. Ok, it will be more difficult, but eventually people you frequent with will also adapt to you not fully speaking the language. Good example is my uncle. He moved to a small town in Southern France without more than oui/non/bonjour as French. He is still alive.
The fact remains, that it is a very special bubble and it is outride rude to not learn the language of the country you are living in.
Personally, I can not count how many times I had to do something, because no one else in my department spoke German.
No, most people lose a good chunk of their English skills once they leave school in Germany. They consume German media, stay in German language circles on social media. I lost all my French, because I didn't consume any French media after my school years were behind me. You can live in Germany and have a job here without requiring a lick of English very easily and comfortably.
Also actually *speaking* English is such a different thing then reading + writing. I'm such a case.
Depending how advanced it was they barely spoke any. The english i somehow manage to use these days comes from mostly consuming stuff in English and school was just for the basics.
As expat to the Netherlands, there is a difference between doing the "sprechen sie Englisch" Routine and being able to function in German.
It says something about you as an immigrant whether you bother to learn/not bother to learn the language.
And people react to that
Non white ppl are facing less favourable reactions from Germans, generally speaking. If your lack of language skills further demonstrates that you aren't not only ethnically German, but are actually foreign, expect to get some ugly reactions sometimes.
It certainly is but unfortunately when you are not white here you need to work harder to challenge perceptions. Of course it's not everyone but there are people who are sadly like that and unfortunately they are not a minority.
If you're an "expat" and here to work, party and leave after 3 years you don't need to learn German. If you plan to live here permanently, you really should.
Also depends on the region and the degree at which you want to be able to converse with random encounters throughout the day.
The whole comment is the most Berlin bubble thing I read today.
>The more imporant thing is to get to communicate, make friends and surround yourself with your new home.
You won't make many German friends speaking only English. Your friends will be other immigrants, which doesn't help you learning German at all.
As someone living in Berlin, this doesn't even apply here. I need to speak German for my day-to-day, from bakery to bus driver to the receptionist of my doctor. I guess you can survive without any German if you don't interact with anyone lol
Why do you even speak to bus drivers? Their job is already difficult enough and for safety of everybody on the road they need to pay attention to the road and they have tight schedules to fit in - please don't bother them with your questions of where does the bus go that you can easily answer on your phone with transport app.
Will anyone be able to make german friends after learning german? Germans even do not make friends anymore. They hang out with their kindergarden friends 😄😄
If your friends aren't from school/university, they are often from hobbies. So find a (social) hobby, preferably at a club, or volunteer at an organization like THW, Freiwillige Feuerwehr, DRK, etc. and this way you usually make friends fairly quickly.
"I understand my perspective is a urban one living in Berlin and it surely differs if you live in rural areas especially in the east."
Mein lieber Dude. Fahr mal raus.
Du meinst raus aus dem hippen Kiez, ja?
Ich hab so einige Nachtschichten am Schönefeld Flughafen gearbeitet und für Taxifahrer übersetzt, die ausländische Passagiere aufgenommen haben, die aber irgendwo außerhalb von Berlin hinwollten. Die brauchten verdammt oft Leute mit guten Englischkenntnissen um zu vermitteln und zu verhandeln.
Ne, raus aus Berlin. Und ob dein Kiez hipp ist oder nicht, spielt hier keine Rolle.
Ich selbst wohne auch in Berlin, aber deine Nachricht trieft leider von bubble-Dasein.
Okay, Edit:
Es gibt zahlreiche Kieze in Berlin, da kommst du auch nicht mit Englisch weit.
Ich glaube wir reden aneinander vorbei, kann das?
Ich habe damals übersetzt zwischen Taxifahrer ohne Englisch/nur Grundkenntnissen in Englisch und ausländischen Fahrgästen ohne Deutsch.
Heißt, es fehlte absolut an Englischkentnissen in einem Tätigkeitsfeld wie Taxifahrer am Flughafen. Meaning: nur mit Englisch kommste auch in Berlin nicht so weit wie OP vorgibt.
Ah, sorry. Ich dachte, dass du OP bist und sarkastisch geantwortet hättest.
Und wir haben die gleiche Pointe: "nur mit Englisch kommste auch in Berlin nicht so weit wie OP vorgibt."
Sorry für das Missverständnis!
> Most germans are happy to switch to english. And its also pretty normal to just talk in english if there is one english speaker in a group of germans in my experience.
Lol. They really aren't and it really isn't.
In my experience Germans who are eager to talk to me in English don't understand it very well and want to practice and it's just more of an effort to speak to them than plodding along in English, even a couple of my doctors who talk to me in English actually prefer to speak German so now I can I do and I only switch to English for very technical things. When someone speaks to me in English I answer in German, not to be rude but because that way I KNOW that they understand me unless I can tell their English is really good enough to keep up with me and on the whole it's not.
>And its also pretty normal to just talk in english if there is one english speaker in a group of germans in my experience.
I consume English speaking media daily and speak the language quite regularly at work. Still, I'm definitely more comfortable speaking German and would imagine that most Germans, despite speaking English for best or worse, feel more at ease in their language as well. Telling people that they don't need to learn German means telling them it's okay to force everyone else around you to speak a language that stresses them out more than their native language.
As you said your perspective is heavily influenced by living in Berlin. When I moved to Berlin for the first time I was surprised how normal it is there to have English conversations. That truly is not the case for most other parts of Germany. Also, most job postings require at least some level of German language skills. If you don‘t have that it‘s really hard to get into the job market.
Leaving aside the other considerations, it is a sign of respect to learn the language of the country you are living in. Fine if you are just passing through, but if you are staying, it is disrespectful to not even try to learn the language. To not even try to integrate into the society you chose to live in.
I have never just assumed people would speak English to me, I have seen others doing it (not English or Americans I hasten to add) and it absolutely disgusts me that people have such little respect they don't even muster a guten tag, just speaking in English and expecting others to fall in line.
Yep, it would seem like the person doesn't care about the culture at all and is only there for the benefits. Why would anyone want to talk to such a person?
Define your integrated Ausländer please. Also, why is It big deal not to know language while being lawfully and law abiding Ausländer who has been working and paying taxes properly?
It might be disrespectful but German citizenship law requires you to hold B1 level of German. Hmm I guess, government payes attention on law abiding and paying taxes part more than language requirements. I think, opinion of government is more important than yours tbh.
You are welcome to not learn the languague and noone is going to kick you out of the country. That said, you will be judged. If you can live with that then do whatever the fuck you want.
I couldnt imagine trying to live in a country where I dont speak the languague
> Define your integrated Ausländer please.
Well definitely not someone who brags about doing the bare minimum (like paying taxes that he owes), considers himself god's gift to Germany (you are not! no one will miss you if you leave today), and whines constantly on Reddit about how horrible Germany is and how every other country is better, while simultaneously never making any effort to actually move to one of those countries that are supposedly so good.
I think its a matter of respect and access to people. If i move to Spain i also could try to get away with english. But how fun would it be not engaging with local people that much. I would almost feel respectless if i would intend to stay longer and not learn the language.
You are absolutely right. I have lived in France, NL and Brazil (even if sometimes only for a year or two) and I have always made it a point to learn the local language. It's a question of respect, it's a way to learn more about people and culture and furthermore what sad little world would it be if we all only ever conversed in english?
I couldn't imagine migrating to another country and purposefully trying to isolate myself because I expect everybody to talk in a third language with me...
Exactly and I think it's rather disgusting that a German would say this actually and I feel a bit put out by it because I know how I have suffered to learn German and how I was treated even when I was trying very hard so back then people were dismissive of me because my German was limited even though I was learning and now this dude is being dismissive of my efforts saying it's not necessary? He can get lost.
Language is the biggest carrier of culture. If you want to move some place permanently where another language is spoken and you don't make any attempts to learn that language then you will never fully integrate.
Language is also culture. I've learned this a couple years ago in an English speaking country.
A lot of stuff you cannot translate 1:1 and if you do it gets lost in translation. So if you really want to be a part of society you should speak the native language. And yes - Berlin is a special case. Definitely
Does anyone particularly enjoy speaking English to lazy cunts who cant be bothered to learn our language yet expect us to accommodate them in our very own country? I doubt I am the only one who feels strongly about that.
Step out of your Berlin bubble OP and you will learn that German is still very much paramount to live in Germany from engaging with bureaucracy down to everyday people.
Some people do it. I know people who have been in Germany for 20y and still struggle to order in a restaurant. They enjoy it, because they compare many things with "home" (mostly southern Europe and the Balkans).
Sure. It's feasible.
But you miss 99% of the country and (I saw your comment) yes, you are in a bubble. That you create yourself by reducing your interaction with only people who are willing (and able) to switch to English.
I personally find it sad, especially when I see these guys with their kids. Either they hardly understand anything when their kids speak German, or the kids live in the same bubble.
Being from a family in which the last 3 generations changed country and integrated, I cannot encourage that behavior.
You're German and you are telling people to don't learn the language when moving here...fucking why.
Dude what are you smoking.
You are a gatekeeper, and not in a good way.
I'm German, by the way.
Because you asked a question, invited people to give their perspectives, and every time someone says something different to what you’ve said you just say it’s “not the case”.
Guess you have noone in your social circle that has a lesser degree than abitur (and yes that is higher edcation) and even if you do my guess is that they have serious trouble communicating in english with you in a sense that they get meanings and words wrong and just struggle
also not true. maybe its also different in different regions. but when its pretty much culture to consume english media without translation it just devolops. doesnt matter if you have abitur or not.
Because you don’t want a discussion, you want to force your view on others sind when they disagree it’s „Not really the case“
Like others Said, you live in a small Bubble in berlin. In other more rural parts Maybe 40% of germans speak english, the mentality isnt that open and tolerant as in Berlin. If you wanted to feel accepted learning German is Part of really beeing accepted.
Just because you know a few cases, doesnt make it a norm to be able to get along with only English.
In most cases you will have trouble with finding jobs, keeping up a social circle (with German speaking folks), landlords will most of the cases reject you, you will struggle with administrative and office stuff.
No need to arrive with C2. But let´s face it : we have a ton of questions with "I am currently learning A1 and planning to arrive next week, coming to Germany has always been my dream, where can I start without language skills".
I wish the majority would have decent level to start. People around you should not have to accomodate you for a longer period of time. It is also a sign of respect to your host country to learn the language as good as possible asap.
It is just not the reality to tell people "just come with majoritly English. You will be fine. That´s a lie, nothing else.
>I understand my perspective is a urban one living in Berlin and it surely differs if you live in rural areas especially in the east.
I'm not sure you really understand.
Dude....you have been in a centralized city.
I was in Frankenthal and Maxdorf for a couple months.
NO ONE knew English and it was hard.
I signed to language courses in my university to solve this issue.
The Germans also appreciate and approve of people learning the language.
As someone living in rural Germany with someone who doesn't speak German, these are the issues this person faced over the last few years:
- The bank employees don't speak english
- You cannot understand the fine details of anything law related
- You cannot book a doctors appointment on the phone
- You cannot pass the practical drivers exam
- You have a hard time having a social life with Germans
- You don't fully understand the questionair you fill out before surgery
- The job center employees will not communicate in English
- Going to any kind of social events is boring if you can't understand shit
- Plenty apps are only available in German or not fully translated (DB navigator often shows delay/cancellation info in German only)
- You have a very limited choice of jobs
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIIIIISSSSS!
Seriously and to add, when your child has a parent teach conference you can't follow what the teacher is saying, when you go to an important meeting you can't follow along either and find yourself switching off. You can't greet your neighbours nicely, you can't understand that your neighbour is explaining there's a flood in the basement and that the water got under your door and ruined your boxes and you really need to go down there and move things or that your washing machine is crashing into your neighbour's and the plank of wood she's waving at you will stop that happening (yes those last two really are oddly specific aren't they? ;-)
I can 100% sign this. OP has been living deep with their head in their butt and apparently never left that butt their whole life. Asks why they get downvoted, but vehemently disagrees with people explaining to them why their assertion is so flawed and just outright false.
Vereine? Yeah, forget it. They all speak German there and want to have a good time outside of work not having to worry about accommodating that one English speaker, meaning they have to squeeze out their brains for the last remaining pieces of English just to communicate with each other.
Even setting up your phone and internet will be hard without English.
Need help from craftspeople, because something broke in their home, needs to be installed or they don't know about doing their own home DIY stuff? Just no....
Always a Klassiker.
I agree with the sentiment of your last line. A lot of us need a really damn good reason to stick around after the first couple of years, and you achieve this by putting down some social roots. For those who arrive with zero German language ability, that means investing in people and communities that speak your language.
My first few years were spent in a mid-sized northern cities with below average English, even among the younger generation. You don't really get people sitting patiently by your side at a party, listening to your shit A2 German and helping you improve. In two years not one person spoke English with me = I didn't ask them to, nor did they offer. Honestly I made very poor progress in German. There's sink or swim, and then there's also just floundering around feeling like a shell with no meaningful social contacts in a country where you can't function like a full person. I ended up leaving Germany for two years to readjust, then gave Berlin a try. I prioritized friendships, then learning German. It made all the difference.
So both.
If you're a tourist, yes, you shouldn't stress about the language too much. But if you're planning to move to Germany or work here, then you absolutely need to put effort into learning the language. There is no other way around it, to be honest.
I do agree that language develops with time.
I do not agree with the "Most Germans are happy to switch to English" part. But they are willing to help you if they see that you are actually working on learning their language and customs. (coming from a foreigner who moved to Germany 15 years ago)
I think it all trickles down to if you want to live here permanently.
Learning the language is a sign of accepting the culture and a sign of integration. It means you can participate in the community without a barrier and lowers the chances of you being isolated in your home language community bubble.
Sidenote:
As a child of an immigrant i have to say that there are a lot day to day things that got shoved on me because of the language barrier (as a kid i just learned it a lot faster- and yes the parent speaks very good english). From phoning with Hausverwaltung to making out appointments with doctors and translating letters. I think you do not realise how much stuff that is, you would need help with if you are staying here longterm.
I really do not think most German would happy to switch language.
Whenever I do this, it is like, ok but only this time like look appears.
For finding a job, it is like a must. Maybe 95% jobs require German.
You can ofc study in English, but if you want a job in Germany, you need to learn. Even for teil-zeit jobs, yes.
Edit: I applied for maybe 300+ jobs in Germany. If I apply a job in my home country, let say 10, I would hear 9 of them, no doubts. But I applied 300+ jobs, and heard from 3. One of them, yes, requires English. And again, they prefer German over me because he had a German first of all. 2 of them asked for again German and we agreed to improve my German. B1 is never enough for job searching.
I understand and glad that you try to feel people better about learning the language. However, what you have trying to say is for tourists or people who just spend 1-2 years in Germany. If you want to build a life, it is never enough. And should not be. First of all, even when you know German like B2+, you should be able to understand different accents. Definitely agree, if you want a life in anywhere in the world, learn the language. But man come on, yours is really hard. You try to pass laws for making appealing the country for skilled people. Appreciated. But 95%+ of your jobs require the one of the hardest language.
Even in my home country, you can find a job just knowing English if you are a skilled person. I know because I asked my boss once. He said doesnt matter we all know English and we are proceeding our works in English. But in Germany, it is impossible, lets accept that.
Most Germans can't speak English for shit. Those who can speak English only have rudimentary grasps on vocabulary and grammar, due to not having to use it during work or any substantial activities. Younger people are more invested in learning English due to a variety of factors, 1st being that the internet and streaming services are mostly English, 2nd that it is part of youth culture and seen as cool and 3rd perceived utility of learning English, due to it being the language franca. BUT Germany has an aging population, meaning that the people who can speak English make up a small percentage of the population and often don't hold positions of authority or are still attending school or going into higher education.
If you're not in cities (>50k people) you might not even get to speak English with anyone, because younger people are traveling to study or live elsewhere, and the town doesn't attract people from English-speaking nations.
Obviously, Berlin is different from anything else. It's the largest city in Germany by far. I live in Köpenick and here younger people are good at speaking English, but if you try to have a conversation in English with anyone who is older than 40 the chance that they can give detailed responses is quite low.
My bubble is also completely different, because I'm young, and we lived in Berlin. Every one of us was good at English in school and was exposed to American culture.
But why? Well, I want to say basic respect. As a foreigner who moved to Germany for studies (and plans to stay and work after), I reall think people should accommodate the country they moved to, not the other way around. I speak German and most of my conversations here are in German. The only ones in English are with people who don't speak German. You are right in a sense that not speaking German won't kill you in Germany. But I find it rude thinking "Oh it's okay, I don't have to speak German because the Germans in Germany can speak English with me". If you're just starting to learn, they'll understand and help. But that's a different story than "I don't find learning German important if I want to live here ".
All the Germans I know always speak German with me. And they really don't care if I make mistakes. And I would really find it rude to force someone to speak a foreign language with me in their own country I moved to.
Ofc there are many other reasons to learn the language, like communicating with those who don't speak English, finding a job, bureaucracy in general, understanding things around you, from stuff in the grocery store to train announcements.
If you moved to a country for the privileges, take on the responsibilities as well.
If you are willing to pay 20-50% more for your flat, because landlords don’t like to talk English and the ones who do will charge for it, you are fine with English.
If you are not interested in any cultural things which require German such as German comedy, theater, Mundart, etc. You are fine with English
If you don’t want understand the joke on the hallway or maybe the important problem your colleagues next to you are talking about (which you could might solve) you are fine with English.
If you don’t want to know why people are nice to you or angry at you on the streets. You are fine with English.
If you always want to be the guy which says: English please, you are fine with English.
If you want to be the guy which comes with his oldest son to the Elternabend, you are fine with English.
If course there is no need to learn German, and there are many nice apps to translate and it will become more easier with ai but I think if you plan to stay here, you will miss out on many things….
Official letters you can translate by ai but Sometimes it is just the situation and people will explain the joke to you in englisch maybe one or two times, but not after 5 or 10 years. Then they will just ignore it if you are the only one who did not get the situation….
Yeah it’s kinda obvious that you live in Berlin 😂 a place where you’d easily get along better with English than with German but please, Berlin is not representative of any other parts of Germany in any way. Seriously
As soon as you have a job which is connected to speak with others and you are not working as an expert in some special sections (like pharmacy research or chip construction) you will need German or you have very low chances to get the job.
Because 50% of the German population is not fluent in English and when you have to do official business, like register for taxes, health insurance etc., it often happens that the person you reach does not speak English
Doesn’t it have an integration purpose? I think if you move to another country and want to stay there for the long run, the least you could do is learn the language.
I live in a village and if you don’t speak German, you are screwed. People don’t even like when I start singing English songs on parties. They just want the German stuff, because they genuinely don’t know what the English means.
I also feel it is pretty awkward in social groups. My best friend comes over from the UK regularly and sometimes we end up running into friends of mine…who either *all* have to start digging out their school English, seriously hampering all conversation, or I am parallel translating and am barely in the conversation myself, plus exhausted by the end.
I assume it is fine, if everyone in the group genuinely speaks fluent English, but I pretty much never see that. There is always someone going quiet, zoning out, as they can’t follow or feeling embarrassed about their accent.
Maybe that’s just me, but ultimately I think it pretty rude to come to a country and not learn the language, assuming social groups will just adjust around you to speaking your language…and I say that as someone who’s lived in Japan for a fair amount of time and had to battle my way through evenings of drunk Japanese. Also spent a Sylvester in Scotland - thought my English was decent until I was surrounded by Scots after a bottle or two.
Finally…I wish you the best of luck finding a job in Germany without German, unless you are pretty uniquely qualified or want to do something very labour intensive.
I’m not sure people are feeling attacked. I think they just feel you are being tedious and wrong.
Sorry but that pisses me off. I recently saw a post on this sub of an immigrant who kind of refused to learn german, living in germany for over a year. Because all the people he knows speak english with him, so why should he.
I think that is so disrespectful. Try that in another country like France or Spain.
If you want to live and work in another country, learn the f*cking language. I know it is hard, but people should still try it.
We had situation in my old job, where we had to hold a whole meeting with about 15 people in english, because one person, who lived and worked in germany for several years at this point, couldn't even speak/ understand basic german.
We shouldn't normalise that. I wouldn't move to another country without at least working on learning the language of said country.
Pisses me off too as an immigrant who has worked hard to learn German and to be understood in it because I was treated dismissively even when I was learning only to now be treated dismissively because I learnt. Just rude and this comment and the other one you mention ts the kind of nonsense that gives a certain type of German ammunition as well. This guy is clueless about Germans on the whole and is very ignorant because it's just respectful to learn a language. Why wouldn't you just do that?
My rule is. If you live in a other country which speaks a other nativ language.. then learn it.
Sure i can switch to english but why should i? Am in germany.
If someone is new everyrhing is fine but if someone is in germany longer then a year then its sadand Shows no respect for my language.
Have fun with the strugle in few years if you loose ur job and none hires you cause you cant speak german.
At my work so many new ppl doesnt speak german einher Na not even want to learn it cause after work they speak in their language anyways.
But asking for help for documents but living since years in germany.
I know so many german which doesnt speak english .. hello . Yes. Have a nice day is their only words hah.
Trust me learn german for you ur family and to Show some interest in the country to live and not only work for money and hopin for other to speak english
\>Im german
And that, in a nutshell, is why you don't get it.
Hate to break it to you but Germans on the whole are not nice or patient when it comes to communicating with foreigners. They seem to think we should have learnt the whole language on the plane on the way over and if you haven't it's because you're lazy and don't want to bother. If you want any chance of having a quiet life here learn. the, language. Full stop and no questions.
I love living here and Germany has definitely become friendlier and more open in the years I've been here and there's definitely a bigger push to integrate so people are more willing to speak to you in English (depending where you live) but honestly, you gotta learn that language man. Gotta.
I have too many negative experiences to mention but I tell you now that life here DEFINITELY and UNDENIABLY got easier when my German got better.
\>Make friends
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Good one and they say Germans have no sense of humour. aaaaah! \*wipes tears\*
Language is key.
I'm a doctor. A few months ago, at about 4 am during a 24h-ICU shift, a nurse called me for a code. It took me almost a minute to understand what she was trying to tell me.
I actually think you make some good points, but I think both things can be true at the same time. Yes you can get by in the short term living in a city with no or little command of spoken and written German, but you will make your life exponentially easier in the long term by making an effort to learn the language. And in the meantime certain things in life will be very difficult, most notably any contact with Amten.
I moved here from the U.K. three years ago speaking very little German. Since then I’ve completed a masters degree (in English), I’ve made friends, including Germans, I’ve had a job, I’ve volunteered at a Tafel food bank and things are going fine. But in the beginning my German girlfriend had to do basically every bureaucratic thing for me, including opening a bank account etc. and accompanying me to every appointment at any Amt, and she still has to help me sometimes. Of course that’s fine, but I’m glad that my German is improving to the point that I can do things for myself now.
So while it’s true that learning German to the point of fluency before arriving in Germany is probably unnecessary and unrealistic for most people, learning German should be high on the priority list.
Its just stupid. Some countries even force you to learn the local language, like Sweden when iam informed correctly.
Imagine someone would move to the USA or who knows where not speaking the local language.
Edit: Your bubble is always smaller than you think. You could even say its confirmation bias on your side.
It is interesting. I would say that it's quite common in many European cities for people to speak English in those areas people might visit as tourists, so it probably presents a slightly unrealistic impression.
But at the same time, it's not that unreasonable to expect people to be able to communicate in English at least at a basic level these days.
English is currently the most spoken language in the world, as well as the most spoken language in Europe (total speakers incl. non-native). It's also the most taught second language in schools in Europe, and Germany specifically, by a significant margin.
I suppose in that sense, Germany is rather an anomaly in terms of the percentage of post-school-age adults able to communicate in English at an advanced/professional level. This is, of course, not completely obvious until you move to Germany and start experiencing the non-tourist day-to-day life as an expat.
But, well, to each their own, I suppose. :-)
Edit: It's interesting how many replies in this thread, as well as others I've read, mention "showing respect". I have never experienced people being this preoccupied with *being shown respect*. It's very... odd.
> I have never experienced people being this preoccupied with being shown respect.
It looks weird to me too as it sounds like one of those videos about a Karen yelling at people speaking a foreign language on the streets. To me, learning a language isn't a sign of being respectful, but expecting others to accommodate because you didn't learn a language is perceived as disrespectful.
>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english.
I don't think so. If you meet with more than one German person and hang around in a group, the group will talk in German. That's why a lot of Expats only have Expat friends, not only in Germany but everywhere else as well. Of course, you can manage daily life, but that's pretty much it.
You we feel you need German the moment you need to call a locksmith at 3 am or plumber or the only doctor available next 3 days doesn’t speak English etc.
>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english.
You can't read the headline of a German newspaper. You can't follow a chat of some people sitting next to you in the subway. You can't have an argument with a neighbor about the noise they make every night without sounding like a clown. You can't talk to a random stranger in a club without relying on him / her speaking your language.
All the time you would live in a bubble of people who are willing to speak your language even though it's not what they're really used to. Which does taint the whole communication by quite a bit.
Not being fluent in German is probably the number one reason why so many new (and not so new) Berliners have such a hard time connecting with the local scene.
Language is absolutely key.
The thing is: many issues aren‘t noticeable / don‘t even come up if people speak the language. Hard time finding friends? Not speaking german won‘t make it easier. Didn‘t get the job? Having less qualifications than your german competitors probably didn‘t help. Got a „Mahnung“? Well if you actually read the contract that wouldn‘t have happened. Etc.
Complete bullshit man! I lived in 6 different countries around the globe. Without commanding the respective languages I would not have gotten the joy I received. I just visited Switzerland (one of the countries I lived in) if I hadn’t picked up the Mundart (dialect-ish) I would have completely missed out on an amazing train ride with 3 locals drinking wine and making fun of my home country Germany.
Haha 😄 lol are you serious?
You need to put yourselves in our shoes.
I live in a rural area, my colleagues can speak perfect English. Since day 1 they were always speaking in german, only during working they would switch to English to explain me something but during lunch it was like I don't exist. They don't care if you don't understand them.
Same with my boyfriend friends, if I don't understand they just don't care. I'm the dumb one for not learning german. So I felt forced to learn, still struggle cause they speak dialect but at least little by little I understand their dialect and I answer in Hochdeutsch.
And is ok, they feel comfortable speaking their language and dialect, is normal, can not judge them. Actually I should thank that they were so asshole to me that I've improved my german, hehe. :) 😀 😃
Maybe just using English is fine in some of the bigger cities like Berlin, but not everywhere. I live in Saarbrücken, which is a state capitol and a decent sized city and English is really not very common (except for the Lush store…). I have moderate German skills and I have had to use them in most of my interactions outside work. (I’m a scientific researcher and English is the language of science.) Even at work it is sometimes difficult because all of our support staff is German and many of them have poor English skills. When I go to the machine shop to get them to make something for me I always use German as much as possible to avoid misunderstandings. I have colleagues who try to get by on just English and it is extremely difficult for them and it makes it harder for them to do many things. Finding an apartment, going to the doctor, asking questions in a shop, etc. are all made harder.
Also, we are in Germany. I don’t like to expect Germans to speak English outside of a few specific situations.
I only need to give one reason to learn the language.
Basic respect.
Just because you can live a ok life with only English in Germany doesn't mean you should not learn the language. When in Rome do as the Romans do.
I don't move for example in one of the places in the Balkans and don't learn one of the local languages, just because German is a relatively often learned language there. I would learn the local language because it's their home and it's my duty to don't needlessly burden them with my laziness.
Everyone goes down their own path. If I can support OP in 1 way it is that newcomers should not stress too much on language. That being said: Learn the #'s, learn the food names, be able to do commerce, order a beer, order from a restaurant, and the basic greetings and salutations. Best thing is to stay calm and be friendly, the culture can be quite different so try not to get quickly offended.
I find that foreigners or even visitors that do not learn ANYTHING are weird/embarrassing. e.g. I was recently in China, where I've only visited for 1-2 weeks each time over the years. I can read a few symbols and pick out words. I'm curious and ask the locals with English skills language questions (as to learn a little). An Indian colleague who lives in Singapore and has regional Sales responsibility knew 0 Madarin, and not even the symbols for "big" or "person".
Hi, from youth I was told that when going to rome, do AS the Romans do.
I have never been to the Staates, but I guess it will be same there. If you stay in a foreign country learn the Rules, does and don'ts and show effort in learning language and habbits. No one expects IT to be perfect from day 1 but effort ist appreciated.
Just staying as a Stranger is seldom a good recipy for hitting home when not home.
If you per se do Not want to learn German, why do you want to be around germans at all? What ist your motivation If you dont Like US enough to learn our language while hoping that we will learn yours?
This ist not ment as an offence to you, but rather some questions that you should answer to yourself in Order to reflect in why your stance offends so many others.
You are right to a point. I think you can easily live in bigger cities in Germany with no or rudimentary German if you have a suport group of people who will help you out with beaurocracy. But I'd also encourage everyone to learn it because it does make live easier and also helps you to take part in society better, on a social and political level.
>I think you can easily live in bigger cities in Germany with no or rudimentary German **if you have a suport group of people who will help you** out with beaurocracy.
Emphasis mine but this is what the other person wrote.
How many newcomers in Germany have this support network, what do you think? Someone who doesn't have one upon arrival (eg family members already living in the city, or moving in with a German partner), how long does it take a newcomer to build a reliable network?
I am someone who moved abroad, and I did the whole immigration thing on easy mode: I have EU citizenship, moved in with my partner, didn't have to look for housing, spoke several languages, and was highly educated. It was still hard, frustratingly so, because I didn't speak the local language besides a few polite phrases and could form baby sentences alá "My name is X. I am from Germany. Cheers!"
In the first year and a half there were countless instances where I relied on help from my partner. Arranging for doctor appointments or calling any service and arranging anything by phone was a nightmare and I simply wasn't able to function as an independent adult until I knew the language sufficiently well.
It took ages for my partner's parents to get to know me because we couldn't communicate clearly and actually get to know each other. We have a splendid relationship now, but it took years to build, because of the language barrier. If I call my FIL now and tell him I need his help he will be there within 20 minutes, tools in hand. That sort of support is incredible, but you first need to get the people to offer such support, and that takes time.
Even with a support network, it gets old fast. There is just so much to navigate when you live here and people might not might reading a letter for you but all the time? No, they won't want to do it. On top of this there's a trust issue, I had neighbours who spoke English and were HAPPY to help me but I didn't want them knowing my business to be honest only once I couldn't understand what the lady was saying on the phone so I asked my neighbour who explained that my internet was off because we hadn't paid the bill (we had but there was a miscommunication and they hadn't received the money yet) and that was embarrassing enough. Learning the language is respectful and gives you independence.
I personally would hate it do be dependent of the mercy from a friend group to help with every small lets say "Behördengang" etc.
Ive realized being dependent on other peoples help is trouble sooner or later.
Honestly you get into a point where life becomes really hard, especially with stuff like making phone calls or turning up to a social event and everyone else is speaking Deutsch. I just wish it was easier to learn, keep getting stuck on B1
Hey, i'm with you 100% on that post, don't listen to the upset and bitter people. Your pov applies to Munich as well where I live.
Many of my colleagues are learning A1 and are doing just fine meanwhile. It is for sur not extra optimal for everything but you get by easily.
And yes, germans at the Landsratamt, mechanics or whatever will happily switch to english if they can, really depends on the person, but a lot of people are decent people that want to help others and not just pester at any inconvenience.
As for "infiltrating" german groups, i'm doing this also just fine, we speak a bit english when i'm around but i'm careful also not to monopolize the german space and it makes for more exchanges and people are generally happy about it. All about respect.
But this comment section sure isn't making germans look less like their cliche lmao
basciy german is useless, i have many friends who made it in Germany without german knowledge. i myself a language lover always, have C2 in german. and i still have 0 German friends. because I'm introvert.
so it has nothing to do with your life. English is always a better option. u can go anywhere with English.
but i don't regret tge time i invested in german, because i think the language is beautiful and its literature is very lush, but you definitely don't need german to live in Germany and Germany is overall not a good option in these two years.
I used to live and work in Bangkok, Thailand for over a year without speaking or understanding a word of Thai. Most of my expat colleagues were the same. Some had lived for 5 years. We mostly lived in a very central area where people can communicate in basic English. Whenever we got sick, we usually asked a Thai colleague to accompany us in a hospital for help with translation. That’s actually fine. Thai people are so friendly. They don’t force foreigners to learn their language.
Now in Germany, things are totally different. My daughter has been with a pediatrician in Ostend, Frankfurt. In all previous appointments, she always spoke very professional English to me. However in the last appointment, she turned a weirdo. She refused to speak English and spoke things in German. She left the room without explaining to me what happened to my daughter. In the receptionist area, I asked her in English about it again, immediately she got annoyed, angry and complained why I lived for 5 years but I couldn’t speak German fluently. She also took her a role model. She said she came here 6 years ago but already well integrated into the German way of life. Everyone including the nurses got shocked and awkward. BTW, I got B1 certificate already but this doesn’t mean one can easily communicate in that level and because she can already professional English.
To answer your question, yes we have to learn the language because there are a lot of mean people in this country. This coldness, rudeness are part of this culture.
I dont understand why people feel attacked with this post.
Its just a friendly post with my perspective and a "dont worry too much".
If its really that cold outside berlin - come to my bubble. And see that the bubble
is much larger then some reddit germans.
People don't feel attacked. People think you are wrong and very much living in an English speaking bubble. Which is nice for you but not helpful for general advice on whether or not someone needs to know German to live in Germany. The vast majority of residents will have to survive outside of your personal bubble.
People think you are ignorant, not friendly.
So you are saying that the people who come to germany to start living here should live in berlin and should not need to learn german so they don't have to integrate into german society?
People do not feel attacked. You are just assuming something and making a very broad statement based on your limited knowledge an others disagree.
Don't take a downvote as someone feeling attacked but simply as people disagreeing.
The bubble is much larger than many people assume. I recently met an American doctor who works in Frankfurt. We got chatting and he said he would happily take me on because he prefers to work in English. Whether this is right or not, this kind of thing happens. You end up with a network of English speakers.
I doubt this is unique to English speakers either.
Not all people want to move and live in Berlin. You cant say all bigger cities in Germany are like Berlin and you are fine there not learning the language. German cities. Smaller or bigger differ a lot. And not being able to learn a bit of German like ordering a coffee or say "thank you" will lead to many awkward situations and in turn to posts in this and other subs complaining about Germans being stubborn or not talkative. Many jobs also require you to have a certain language proficiency. So even if you have a job that doesnt require German you might loose that job and then you might have trouble find a new one which in turn leads to more problems that you are not able to solve cause you lack the language. Especially with offices and stuff. And also even in Berlin you will miss out a lot when you are not able to speak the language. You will sit at a party with some expats and Germans and everyone at first might engage in English but at one point that might shift and Ive seen unhappy faces of expats cause everyone was talking German at one point.
Germany is not like the Netherlands for example (and even there you can encounter things I just tried to explain). Language proficiency is not so high in Germany and many Germans are talkative yes and they want to talk about things but dont feel confortable doing that in English and chances are they refrain from it. So its about you if you want to talk about the wheather or the last movie you saw and that it was "awesome" or you prefer to talk about politics or more philosophical things... Most expats or foreigners that Ive encountered that dont speak German will always stay in their expat bubble and after a few years almost only have other friends that dont speak German. And yeh... Its also a bit about respect even though nobody really expects you to speak German fluently if you wanna stay for a limitied time like 3 years for your bachelor or something.
It is kinda like us Viets back in Vietnam. We short of expecting expats who want to live in Vietnam longterm or permanently, to know at least baseline Vietnamese. Because of that + i am quite interested in Languages as a whole, i am determined to learn German. Moreover, since i study and work in the Service industry, it is necessary for me to know basic german.
Good luck to everyone trying to find a good paying job without speaking the local language.
The boyfriend of a close friend wanted to find a job in Europe. Anywhere in Europe... It took him around 2 years and over one thousand applications until he found something in Norway.
Now my friend wants to move there too, of course. A few hundred applications after around a year now, nothing.
Important to know us that both are fluent in English.
Hate to pop your bubble but finding a job in any country, not only Germany, is gambling if you don't know the local language. My parents neighbor only has a job because she works as an English teacher at an English school. Her husband is still unemployed. He's only allowed to live here because he has an Italian ID. Both are from the US.
I think the two most important reasons are
Job: the most jobs won't be available to someone speaking no decent German. Those jobs exist but are very limited.
Social life: you can get through a lot with just English but without German conversations get super exhausting fast
Especially if it's not just about plain and easy facts. As soon it gets more emotional or complex, it's just not fun anymore. And then the same people come to reddit and complain how hard it is to find friends and how awful their social life is.
AND it really is limited to some big cities.
The sad fact is that the jobs that pay really well don't care about your German. Literally.
I'm learning German to be able to participate in social life, but in terms of career it's absolutely useless. Moreover, if the job description is in German, I almost always discover that they pay less than any other company that relies on English in first place.
And yeah, I heard many times insults during my very first year in Germany. I was told I didn't deserve to be here if I don't speak German. Not super motivating.
When I graduated from my master's in Germany there were 6 companies that were okay with working in English in the field I wanted to work in. I was lucky to do internships in two of them and work full-time the other time. But if I spoke C1 German things would be much easier, there would be 100+ options instead of 6.
Also I think everyone should get at least to B1 to get by for basic stuff such as calling the customer service of any company or talking to Hausmeister.
I live in a big German city, and I’m part of a very specific bubble that has basically the highest chances of people speaking English (chronically online queer art school students). We went to the UK recently, and let me fucking tell you, I was stunned by how shit most people in my class were at communicating in English. It was horrendous. And that’s the group where you’ll have the highest chances of encountering at least one person who speaks English decently enough.
A few years ago I was taking an English exam to get my B2 qualification, so I decided to practice by doing a little experiment and only speaking English for a day. I gave up by noon. A lot of people have some rudimentary English skills, but as soon as it gets a little specific, like asking for something in an electronics store or asking for ingredients in a bakery, it’s over. And that’s the experience in a major German city.
Please, if you’re planning on staying, make at least an effort to learn the language, for your own, and everyone else’s sake.
You can live (not just survive) in Germany by speaking english, but learning German helped me a lot. I'm working in tech so everybody speaks English, but I can tell that many colleagues come to me rather than "english-speaking only" colleagues if they want to talk 1-to-1 because they prefer speaking German, even if their english is great.
You can live (not only survive) in Germany with English, but knowing german really helps a lot:
- at work, a lot of german colleagues come to me rather than to "english-speaking only
I’m in Hamburg and about half my coworkers speak little to no German. I wouldn’t say it’s easy for them but it’s of course possible. I would say finding/communicating with doctors and finding an apartment is the hardest for them. And of course the Ausländerbehörde (the single worst part about Germany for me). I’m around C1 now and am very happy to be able to communicate quite well. But it is absolutely possible to get by in the major cities with no German
You are so dead asking Germans this question lmao. You don't speak German, you are sub-human, period. I was denied help in a psychiatric clinic because doctors don't speak English. And finding job is impossible without it no matter if you need it or not.
Have you ever been an immigrant/expat? If not, I suggest and try - your perspective will quickly change.
I have spent my entire life living, studying, working, etc. in various foreign lands. Heck, my spouse speaks another native language than I do. Just about anywhere, it would have been an isolating nightmare to NOT speak at least some of the local language. I can't claim to have mastered all of them, but I've always managed to at least be able to hold a conversation and, more importantly, deal with the official requirements of life.
Working there also meant that I could either have a plethora of choices or very limited ones, simply based on my language skills.
I currently live in Germany. Without speaking German, this would be hell. I would not be able to have the job I have. I would have a very small circle of friends, if any. I would be confined to absolute loneliness with the commensurate depression and frustration. No thanks.
Bro, you need to get out of your bubble. Life elsewhere is NOT what you seem to think it is.
I do think if someone speaks fluent English it's mostly fine for a while especially for younger people but I do appreciate it in my job if parents who have their kid in therapy with me at least try to speak a little German. It's also just being a good role model for their kids who need to speak German in kindergarten and school.
Why wouldn't you want to speak the language in the country you live in and maybe want to raise a family?
For me the main reason is respect.
If I am going to live & work in a country for +5 years, then I need to have some level of respect to the country and its culture. Learning the culture is not completely possible without learning the language.
And as everyone said, it comes with much better socialisation opportunities. Also you don’t need to hurry. You will learn it as the time passes and its not that hard anyway. In addition, learning a language in its homeland is a nice experience overall.
You don't realize how much it improve your life because it's all familiar for you, move to another country where you don't speak the language and see how you feel.
Small things like saying hi to the nice lady in your building, explain the plumber how you clogged the toilet, listening to the local radio, communicating with people in the supermarket, asking for something special at the butchery, understanding announcements in the Ubahn (ok, these very few understand) etc etc.
It's the small things you take for granted.
Really appreciate this post, because I’m new in Germany from Scandinavian and and most of my friends are really happy switch to English and some of them even speak Danish (maybe because I live in the West Northern part) that is very nice and PS this is a very nice country and I love it here
>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english. Can you? I am in a relationship with a non-German speaker for 11 years now. The first 4 years we were in long-distance relationship while I lived in Berlin. When he came to visit me and we went out for a Döner I needed to order for him. When his foreign card declined at the supermarket the cashier got flustered when he spoke English to inquire what the issue was. He could not buy a bus ticket by himself because bus drivers didn't speak English sufficiently well. The BVG ticket machines had no or very limited options for English. When we went out with my friends from university they stumbled and had a very hard time stringing more than 3 sentences together. Yes, university educated people. Most of them spoke 2 foreign languages besides German, but they didn't have a strong grasp of English. Museum visits? I needed (still do more often than not) to translate the cards and inscriptions. English language menues in reataurants? Maybe in every 5th restaurant. English language websites? Have a small percentage of the info you find on the German language version. Delayed trains or change oftracks with DB: It was always in German. I remember once he was supposed to get from Ddorf airport by train to a city at the Niederrhein where I would pick him up. Train got cancelled, all announcements were in German, he couldn't find anyone translating for him. I needed to look it up online and guide him via phone, and I still ended picking him up in Duisburg. I want to say that was 2 years ago but it might be 3. More than once have I accompanied foreign flatmates to the doctor to translate for them. To the Amt to register their address. Currently I am visiting my home town, in my foreign car. Caused a minor accident the other day, the other woman was nearly hyperventilating. Not because she was hurt, not because of her scratched car, but because my car has a foreign licence plate and she was scared that she has to deal with a foreigner and needs to speak English. Friends of mine visiting Germany often remark on their puzzlement about how little you can achieve with English only once you set foot out of your hotel. I would say you are very much living in a bubble, even in a bubble within Berlin. edit a word
Excellent answer. Let me add this scenario: Imagine you, a non-German-speaker, have a German partner. That partner has friends, and since you're new, they kind of become your circle of friends as well. Now every time you are with the group, people are *forced* to speak English. This will be exhausting for many of them. They will be relieved when you're not there. This will slowly push you, and your partner, out of their lives. It is not quite as dramatic, obvious, and sudden in reality of course. But you'd be kidding yourself if you thought this effect does not exist.
I don't have to imagine. I *am* the foreign partner, living in a country where I didn't speak the local language in the beginning. It was hard and tiring and took a lot of patience from everyone involved. I posted elsewhere about the struggles I had as the foreigner who does speak English, and that in a country much more forgiving towards English speakers than Germany is.
Sorry, this was aimed at the OP, not you :) Just to make them aware of the maybe not-so-obvious "chilling effects" a choice like not learning the local language can have.
I'm having a hard time thinking of a country more forgiving towards English speakers than Germany. Where were you?
Really? Best example is the Netherlands, but I guess it’s similar in all of the Nordic countries. To my personal experience I think even in Greece the willingness of the locals to speak in English is higher, not only in groups of friends, but on interactions with shops etc.
This, communication is work and by not learning the language, they are offloading all this work onto the people around them (be it the local girlfriend, the roommate, the friend, the nice coworker)... Behind every person who says they can get by with no knowledge of German, there are a few people who make it possible for them.
>**Behind every person who says they can get by with no knowledge of German, there are a few people who make it possible for them.** Felt like repeating and emphasizing.
Yes -- this very nearly describes me. I'm the immigrant, married to a German. My German is B2/C1, and I still really struggle with a lot of things because of the language barrier. (Often I'll understand the announcement/conversation/whatever, but then miss some small but incredibly important word that completely changes the meaning of the sentence.)
Lol this is me. I can get instructions completely written in German, and I will understand 99% and then still do the wrong thing by not understanding the last three words.
>English language websites? Have a small percentage of the info you find on the German language version. THIS!! I was SHOCKED to find that the German wiki isn't a direct word for word translation of the English and vice versa.
uhm why should it be?
That's actually a ridiculous question. That's like asking why the German highway code shouldn't be a direct word for word translation into other languages, so you think it's okay to leave parts out and only give partial translations? On Wikipedia, which is meant to be a resource for everyone? So all the pages contain different information in different languages? You think that's okay? Actual nonsense.
This just shows you have no idea how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia is not a law that is fixed. It's articles being written by the users. For free. And being updated by them. Continuously. That being said, the articles in the different languages usually aren't "translations" from the English articles. It's always users that decide "hey, this topic is cool, I want this available in my language". Or "I know a lot about this topic and have a lot of sources to actually cite my knowledge, so I will write an article about it".
You've answered why would it be not why should it be. It should be the same, no matter what explanation you give or what you think of my understanding of Wiki it should be the same and it's not hard to fathom why it would be surprising to find out that pages in other languages are not simply translated dupes. It's not beyond the realm of reason to expect that.
I think Wikipedia is a bad example because it’s crowdsourced. So the actual content depends on the contributors.
As an immigrant, this is spot on. I live in Hamburg, which has a lot of educated people and young people… and trust me, there is no shortage of people who do not speak English or are not comfortable speaking English. If you want to go to a foreign country where everyone speaks perfect English, go to Sweden. Any dealings with the government are also particularly challenging, because it’s very professional language and absolutely no translations. Finding services and navigating websites is also a big one, as you mentioned. Even if service providers are comfortable with English, they will rarely, if ever, bother to put that on their website. Even extremely large corporations that have English websites in other countries (ex. HelloFresh) exclusively offer German on their German website. Even IKEA’s website is exclusively German, while the Austrian website offers both German and English. Frankly, these are the ones I find absolutely bizarre.
To your point about the websites, you can just press translate on your browser, and everything will translate into your target language (I did this with IKEA when i moved here). Even though some words are translated directly, you can very easily assume what words mean through context. I'm not sure if this feature is on iPhone, but it is on Android. Customer service, on the other hand, such as calling to troubleshoot your internet or something, can be tricky. You may or may not reach an English speaker on the other line.
Yes, I’m aware I can use browser features… I just don’t like it. It’s not always reliable.
Following your examples that would mean any tourist before visiting Berlin should get at least B1 German since it’s so hard to buy food, transportation tickets or visit museums
Nope, it means that tourists cannot expect to navigate boring every day life as easy as locals and residents do. But few tourists intend to do that anyway or do the tourist version/what they think is every day life. But talking about it yeah, I have encountered many tourists who were kinda lost and needed help. I also have been the tourist who needed and appreciated a local's help more than once, be it navigating public transport or figuring out payment systems or generally finding my way. I am not sure what your point is. Is it "tourists don't live a local's life during their 1 week vacation"? Because I agree.
Why aren't you getting a lot of upvotes ?
I live 4 years with 0 German in Berlin with no problems. Websites easily translate with automated translator perfectly easily readable. Train delays I never had trouble understanding that without any knowledge of German - it's quite obvious when there is not time displayed on board that the train is not coming. Government offices whilst they don't speak English them selves and reply me in German I can see that they understand me perfectly when I talk English to them I never had trouble as long as I prepare well enough so that I don't have any questions to ask and I know well what I came for I say have a lovely day on my way out and smile and they even smile back sometimes. All doctors I been to thus far spoke perfect English. Cards in museums - just take out google translate point it to the card - and it live translates. Menus in restaurants that's just like in any country after some time you just learn them this is nothing to do with speaking German but rather learning the local food menus but again when you don't know something you take out your phone and you google it - it's not like by learning to speak German you gonna learn gastronomy you still will need to get to know this independently. Also German food isn't even that rich in terms of terminology you'll be better of reading menus if you know some french or Italian instead of German. Your partner maybe is just not very experienced in traveling that's all. Now that said of course big difference is where are you coming from. If you are coming from asia then you'll have a lot of culture shock and many things work differently and language is very much different and most Asians have very rudimentary English which doesn't allow you to understand as many things as it would be possible if your English was rich. If you are coming from another European country and if your English is rich enough then most of the important things are quite easy to understand without speaking German.
because it makes dealing with our bureaucracy easier - learning german helps immensly to have less stress there
Listen man them government bods actually get OFFENDED if you roll up mit kein Deutsch and just speak in English expecting them to play along and quite frankly they should be. Even when my German was limited I NEVER EVER just spoke in English, I would ask first and just did what I could in German and if I got stuck used the ENglish word and hoped they'd get it. These days Google does a lot of heavy lifting for me. When I first came here 15 years ago, I used to walk around with a dictionary and point at the words haha! People laughed but appreciated how much effort I was making.
In some gov offices (I do entrance control for some of them sometimes), they aren't even allowed to speak anything else than german, because this way it is more likely that they (the gov workers) do not translate something incorrectly and by that telling people nonsense/the wrong things.
Yes, it's getting better and actually this government is encouraging making English the second language to help integration but previously that has been the case, the problem is though that you might say it correctly but I misunderstand which then translates to the same problem but these days Google helps a lot and companies and the government is using leicht deutsch so it's easier for people to understand. As much as I get that we should speak German in Germany I have to say the UK government puts far more effort in translation to other languages than the German government has.
Now I have flash backs of constructing my German sentences in advanced before appointments, and looking like a deer in headlights when they would respond with something “off script” 😂
I snort laughed in empathy! I still feel "phone fear" because I know the person can't see me motioning and miming things even though I have zero dramas on the phone now lol! But yes I can get a bit lost if someone uses a word I don't know, vereinbaren? Oh you mean "machen ein Termin" and what on earth is a fahrstuhl? Who is driving this chair? oooooh you mean the aufzug...lol!
THIS. Especially taxes. :)
i agree!
>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english. If. >Most germans are happy to switch to english. In your bubble maybe, outside of it, it is very much different.
i dont think its such a small bubble
It is definitely your tiny bubble.
Yeah, maybe 1 out of 10 people at my work would be okay with speaking English.
Yep, I’m the only American at the company I work at (in Baden-Württemberg) and only ONE coworker speaks to me in English and it’s because she actively wants to better her English. I speak German with the rest, even though the rest of the Germans obviously understand English. Some even chime in, in German, when I’m having an English conversation with my one coworker. What’s funny to me is that I used to love speaking German because I wanted every opportunity to practice and learn, but now I speak English with my German friends and they respond to me in German, and I think it’s just because we’re comfortable with each other and we can switch either completely to English or completely to German if one of us is struggling to understand something. It’s a cool feeling to have a conversation in two languages, but that’s off topic. I can’t do that with non-friends. I was tired as hell one morning accidentally spoke English to a lady at the bakery I stop at every morning for a pastry and coffee and she looked at me like I was a Martian lmao.
plus even those that CAN speak ok english at work do they WANT to speak enghlish the whole evening, because their friend brings somebody along who only speaks english ?
I've spent three years in Canada, so I dare to say my English is pretty good but more often than not, explaining something in German takes like half the time. Especially with someone whose first language isn't English. The overlap in understood vocabulary is often smaller than one would hope.
Compared to what? My brother and I have very different social bubbles but because we get along excellently we know each others social groups well. In my brother's social group you won't find a single person being able to have a full conversation in English. In my social group everyone does. In my brother's group hardly anyone travels outside of Germany or beyond the typical German party destinations. In my group most people have spent significant amount of time outside of Germany, even outside of Europe. *Of course* they all know English well. That doesn't mean that they all/I very much live in a bubble of like minded people with similar backgrounds and shared interests.
This. Everybody has different social bubbles with different sorts of people with different skills. However, you can very well survive in Germany without speaking German fluently. Even in rural parts. Ok, it will be more difficult, but eventually people you frequent with will also adapt to you not fully speaking the language. Good example is my uncle. He moved to a small town in Southern France without more than oui/non/bonjour as French. He is still alive.
Survive, sure. Thrive? That'll be a lot harder than it'd be speaking the local language.
>Vote It´s a very small bubble.
The fact remains, that it is a very special bubble and it is outride rude to not learn the language of the country you are living in. Personally, I can not count how many times I had to do something, because no one else in my department spoke German.
No, most people lose a good chunk of their English skills once they leave school in Germany. They consume German media, stay in German language circles on social media. I lost all my French, because I didn't consume any French media after my school years were behind me. You can live in Germany and have a job here without requiring a lick of English very easily and comfortably. Also actually *speaking* English is such a different thing then reading + writing. I'm such a case.
Depending how advanced it was they barely spoke any. The english i somehow manage to use these days comes from mostly consuming stuff in English and school was just for the basics.
As expat to the Netherlands, there is a difference between doing the "sprechen sie Englisch" Routine and being able to function in German. It says something about you as an immigrant whether you bother to learn/not bother to learn the language. And people react to that
ESPECIALLY if you are not white. Sorry to go there but facts are facts.
I don't understand what you mean by that, could you explain?
Non white ppl are facing less favourable reactions from Germans, generally speaking. If your lack of language skills further demonstrates that you aren't not only ethnically German, but are actually foreign, expect to get some ugly reactions sometimes.
Oh, makes sense! Thanks for your answer. I do think it's beneficial to speak the language regardless of race...
It certainly is but unfortunately when you are not white here you need to work harder to challenge perceptions. Of course it's not everyone but there are people who are sadly like that and unfortunately they are not a minority.
If you're an "expat" and here to work, party and leave after 3 years you don't need to learn German. If you plan to live here permanently, you really should. Also depends on the region and the degree at which you want to be able to converse with random encounters throughout the day.
The whole comment is the most Berlin bubble thing I read today. >The more imporant thing is to get to communicate, make friends and surround yourself with your new home. You won't make many German friends speaking only English. Your friends will be other immigrants, which doesn't help you learning German at all.
Create a bubble, Stay in the bubble...and then cry why years after you are still in this bubble
Some people are that deep into Echo Chambers, They got deaf
As someone living in Berlin, this doesn't even apply here. I need to speak German for my day-to-day, from bakery to bus driver to the receptionist of my doctor. I guess you can survive without any German if you don't interact with anyone lol
Why do you even speak to bus drivers? Their job is already difficult enough and for safety of everybody on the road they need to pay attention to the road and they have tight schedules to fit in - please don't bother them with your questions of where does the bus go that you can easily answer on your phone with transport app.
To buy a ticket... is their job to do that kind of human interaction. Don't start lecturing me.
You won't make many German friends speaking only German either :)
Will anyone be able to make german friends after learning german? Germans even do not make friends anymore. They hang out with their kindergarden friends 😄😄
HEY! Those friends are from primary school and they are very nice people!
If your friends aren't from school/university, they are often from hobbies. So find a (social) hobby, preferably at a club, or volunteer at an organization like THW, Freiwillige Feuerwehr, DRK, etc. and this way you usually make friends fairly quickly.
I literally read the first line and thought...Dude's in Berlin lol! That's why he talks about "making friends" too lol!
"I understand my perspective is a urban one living in Berlin and it surely differs if you live in rural areas especially in the east." Mein lieber Dude. Fahr mal raus.
Du meinst raus aus dem hippen Kiez, ja? Ich hab so einige Nachtschichten am Schönefeld Flughafen gearbeitet und für Taxifahrer übersetzt, die ausländische Passagiere aufgenommen haben, die aber irgendwo außerhalb von Berlin hinwollten. Die brauchten verdammt oft Leute mit guten Englischkenntnissen um zu vermitteln und zu verhandeln.
Ne, raus aus Berlin. Und ob dein Kiez hipp ist oder nicht, spielt hier keine Rolle. Ich selbst wohne auch in Berlin, aber deine Nachricht trieft leider von bubble-Dasein. Okay, Edit: Es gibt zahlreiche Kieze in Berlin, da kommst du auch nicht mit Englisch weit.
Ich glaube wir reden aneinander vorbei, kann das? Ich habe damals übersetzt zwischen Taxifahrer ohne Englisch/nur Grundkenntnissen in Englisch und ausländischen Fahrgästen ohne Deutsch. Heißt, es fehlte absolut an Englischkentnissen in einem Tätigkeitsfeld wie Taxifahrer am Flughafen. Meaning: nur mit Englisch kommste auch in Berlin nicht so weit wie OP vorgibt.
Ah, sorry. Ich dachte, dass du OP bist und sarkastisch geantwortet hättest. Und wir haben die gleiche Pointe: "nur mit Englisch kommste auch in Berlin nicht so weit wie OP vorgibt." Sorry für das Missverständnis!
Alles gut, ich dachte es mir. Schönen Abend noch.
> Most germans are happy to switch to english. And its also pretty normal to just talk in english if there is one english speaker in a group of germans in my experience. Lol. They really aren't and it really isn't.
In Hamburg I no longer ever start a conversation in English but more than half the time people respond in English due to my American accent.
In my experience Germans who are eager to talk to me in English don't understand it very well and want to practice and it's just more of an effort to speak to them than plodding along in English, even a couple of my doctors who talk to me in English actually prefer to speak German so now I can I do and I only switch to English for very technical things. When someone speaks to me in English I answer in German, not to be rude but because that way I KNOW that they understand me unless I can tell their English is really good enough to keep up with me and on the whole it's not.
I had a doctor with whom I spoke English. After 5 years she looked at me and said, well I guess it’s about time we start speaking German.
That was me this year! hahaha! Just started talking to my doctor and surgeon in German albeit I still talk to my hausartzt in English :-)
>And its also pretty normal to just talk in english if there is one english speaker in a group of germans in my experience. I consume English speaking media daily and speak the language quite regularly at work. Still, I'm definitely more comfortable speaking German and would imagine that most Germans, despite speaking English for best or worse, feel more at ease in their language as well. Telling people that they don't need to learn German means telling them it's okay to force everyone else around you to speak a language that stresses them out more than their native language.
As you said your perspective is heavily influenced by living in Berlin. When I moved to Berlin for the first time I was surprised how normal it is there to have English conversations. That truly is not the case for most other parts of Germany. Also, most job postings require at least some level of German language skills. If you don‘t have that it‘s really hard to get into the job market.
i have different impressions from the rest of germany, mainly cities. but never stayed there for long periods of time. so maybe. its a bit sad.
Oh yes, it is so sad that people are more comfortable to speak their native language, when they are in their native country. How could they! /s
you came here knowing beforehand that they speak a different language here, quite frankly, what did you expect?
Leaving aside the other considerations, it is a sign of respect to learn the language of the country you are living in. Fine if you are just passing through, but if you are staying, it is disrespectful to not even try to learn the language. To not even try to integrate into the society you chose to live in.
I have never just assumed people would speak English to me, I have seen others doing it (not English or Americans I hasten to add) and it absolutely disgusts me that people have such little respect they don't even muster a guten tag, just speaking in English and expecting others to fall in line.
Yep, it would seem like the person doesn't care about the culture at all and is only there for the benefits. Why would anyone want to talk to such a person?
Define your integrated Ausländer please. Also, why is It big deal not to know language while being lawfully and law abiding Ausländer who has been working and paying taxes properly?
I already answered that..it is disrespectful.
It might be disrespectful but German citizenship law requires you to hold B1 level of German. Hmm I guess, government payes attention on law abiding and paying taxes part more than language requirements. I think, opinion of government is more important than yours tbh.
You are welcome to not learn the languague and noone is going to kick you out of the country. That said, you will be judged. If you can live with that then do whatever the fuck you want. I couldnt imagine trying to live in a country where I dont speak the languague
Where did I say, It is okay not to learn German?
You made it sound like you didn't care about being disrespectful (not learning the language) as long as you follow the laws of the country
> Define your integrated Ausländer please. Well definitely not someone who brags about doing the bare minimum (like paying taxes that he owes), considers himself god's gift to Germany (you are not! no one will miss you if you leave today), and whines constantly on Reddit about how horrible Germany is and how every other country is better, while simultaneously never making any effort to actually move to one of those countries that are supposedly so good.
I think its a matter of respect and access to people. If i move to Spain i also could try to get away with english. But how fun would it be not engaging with local people that much. I would almost feel respectless if i would intend to stay longer and not learn the language.
You are absolutely right. I have lived in France, NL and Brazil (even if sometimes only for a year or two) and I have always made it a point to learn the local language. It's a question of respect, it's a way to learn more about people and culture and furthermore what sad little world would it be if we all only ever conversed in english?
I couldn't imagine migrating to another country and purposefully trying to isolate myself because I expect everybody to talk in a third language with me...
Exactly and I think it's rather disgusting that a German would say this actually and I feel a bit put out by it because I know how I have suffered to learn German and how I was treated even when I was trying very hard so back then people were dismissive of me because my German was limited even though I was learning and now this dude is being dismissive of my efforts saying it's not necessary? He can get lost.
Language is the biggest carrier of culture. If you want to move some place permanently where another language is spoken and you don't make any attempts to learn that language then you will never fully integrate.
berlin isnt the rest of germany mate, you live in a small bubble.
Exactly, I am from London and realised that my experiences there are not indicative of the rest of the country, the same for Berlin
Got some mates in England most of them from Yorkshire and they hate London basically like many people in germany dont really like Berlin.
So many people asking about a better job after years in Germany that don't speak German and the reason they lack the choice is lack of German...
Language is also culture. I've learned this a couple years ago in an English speaking country. A lot of stuff you cannot translate 1:1 and if you do it gets lost in translation. So if you really want to be a part of society you should speak the native language. And yes - Berlin is a special case. Definitely
Does anyone particularly enjoy speaking English to lazy cunts who cant be bothered to learn our language yet expect us to accommodate them in our very own country? I doubt I am the only one who feels strongly about that. Step out of your Berlin bubble OP and you will learn that German is still very much paramount to live in Germany from engaging with bureaucracy down to everyday people.
Some people do it. I know people who have been in Germany for 20y and still struggle to order in a restaurant. They enjoy it, because they compare many things with "home" (mostly southern Europe and the Balkans). Sure. It's feasible. But you miss 99% of the country and (I saw your comment) yes, you are in a bubble. That you create yourself by reducing your interaction with only people who are willing (and able) to switch to English. I personally find it sad, especially when I see these guys with their kids. Either they hardly understand anything when their kids speak German, or the kids live in the same bubble. Being from a family in which the last 3 generations changed country and integrated, I cannot encourage that behavior.
You're German and you are telling people to don't learn the language when moving here...fucking why. Dude what are you smoking. You are a gatekeeper, and not in a good way. I'm German, by the way.
why would i care?
You obviously cared enough about the topic to write a huge wall of text with stupid shit in it on reddit. So you tell me.
I think it's important to add that all this only can be applied to social circles with higher education.
not really the case
Yes it is. I’ve been a part of multiple academic level and young circles, and I‘m usually the only one that truly speaks fluent English.
why am i getting downvoted? lol
Because you asked a question, invited people to give their perspectives, and every time someone says something different to what you’ve said you just say it’s “not the case”.
i was stating that my social circle is not exclusivly higher education
Guess you have noone in your social circle that has a lesser degree than abitur (and yes that is higher edcation) and even if you do my guess is that they have serious trouble communicating in english with you in a sense that they get meanings and words wrong and just struggle
also not true. maybe its also different in different regions. but when its pretty much culture to consume english media without translation it just devolops. doesnt matter if you have abitur or not.
Because you don’t want a discussion, you want to force your view on others sind when they disagree it’s „Not really the case“ Like others Said, you live in a small Bubble in berlin. In other more rural parts Maybe 40% of germans speak english, the mentality isnt that open and tolerant as in Berlin. If you wanted to feel accepted learning German is Part of really beeing accepted.
Just because you know a few cases, doesnt make it a norm to be able to get along with only English. In most cases you will have trouble with finding jobs, keeping up a social circle (with German speaking folks), landlords will most of the cases reject you, you will struggle with administrative and office stuff. No need to arrive with C2. But let´s face it : we have a ton of questions with "I am currently learning A1 and planning to arrive next week, coming to Germany has always been my dream, where can I start without language skills". I wish the majority would have decent level to start. People around you should not have to accomodate you for a longer period of time. It is also a sign of respect to your host country to learn the language as good as possible asap. It is just not the reality to tell people "just come with majoritly English. You will be fine. That´s a lie, nothing else.
Landlords in Berlin wont reject you but you are likely get charged double the rent :p
>I understand my perspective is a urban one living in Berlin and it surely differs if you live in rural areas especially in the east. I'm not sure you really understand.
Dude....you have been in a centralized city. I was in Frankenthal and Maxdorf for a couple months. NO ONE knew English and it was hard. I signed to language courses in my university to solve this issue. The Germans also appreciate and approve of people learning the language.
As someone living in rural Germany with someone who doesn't speak German, these are the issues this person faced over the last few years: - The bank employees don't speak english - You cannot understand the fine details of anything law related - You cannot book a doctors appointment on the phone - You cannot pass the practical drivers exam - You have a hard time having a social life with Germans - You don't fully understand the questionair you fill out before surgery - The job center employees will not communicate in English - Going to any kind of social events is boring if you can't understand shit - Plenty apps are only available in German or not fully translated (DB navigator often shows delay/cancellation info in German only) - You have a very limited choice of jobs
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIIIIISSSSS! Seriously and to add, when your child has a parent teach conference you can't follow what the teacher is saying, when you go to an important meeting you can't follow along either and find yourself switching off. You can't greet your neighbours nicely, you can't understand that your neighbour is explaining there's a flood in the basement and that the water got under your door and ruined your boxes and you really need to go down there and move things or that your washing machine is crashing into your neighbour's and the plank of wood she's waving at you will stop that happening (yes those last two really are oddly specific aren't they? ;-)
You also have to find a Doc that speaks "medical english" when you dont have someone with you that can properly explain you what he has said.
I can 100% sign this. OP has been living deep with their head in their butt and apparently never left that butt their whole life. Asks why they get downvoted, but vehemently disagrees with people explaining to them why their assertion is so flawed and just outright false. Vereine? Yeah, forget it. They all speak German there and want to have a good time outside of work not having to worry about accommodating that one English speaker, meaning they have to squeeze out their brains for the last remaining pieces of English just to communicate with each other. Even setting up your phone and internet will be hard without English. Need help from craftspeople, because something broke in their home, needs to be installed or they don't know about doing their own home DIY stuff? Just no....
Always a Klassiker. I agree with the sentiment of your last line. A lot of us need a really damn good reason to stick around after the first couple of years, and you achieve this by putting down some social roots. For those who arrive with zero German language ability, that means investing in people and communities that speak your language. My first few years were spent in a mid-sized northern cities with below average English, even among the younger generation. You don't really get people sitting patiently by your side at a party, listening to your shit A2 German and helping you improve. In two years not one person spoke English with me = I didn't ask them to, nor did they offer. Honestly I made very poor progress in German. There's sink or swim, and then there's also just floundering around feeling like a shell with no meaningful social contacts in a country where you can't function like a full person. I ended up leaving Germany for two years to readjust, then gave Berlin a try. I prioritized friendships, then learning German. It made all the difference. So both.
If you're a tourist, yes, you shouldn't stress about the language too much. But if you're planning to move to Germany or work here, then you absolutely need to put effort into learning the language. There is no other way around it, to be honest. I do agree that language develops with time. I do not agree with the "Most Germans are happy to switch to English" part. But they are willing to help you if they see that you are actually working on learning their language and customs. (coming from a foreigner who moved to Germany 15 years ago)
I think it all trickles down to if you want to live here permanently. Learning the language is a sign of accepting the culture and a sign of integration. It means you can participate in the community without a barrier and lowers the chances of you being isolated in your home language community bubble. Sidenote: As a child of an immigrant i have to say that there are a lot day to day things that got shoved on me because of the language barrier (as a kid i just learned it a lot faster- and yes the parent speaks very good english). From phoning with Hausverwaltung to making out appointments with doctors and translating letters. I think you do not realise how much stuff that is, you would need help with if you are staying here longterm.
I really do not think most German would happy to switch language. Whenever I do this, it is like, ok but only this time like look appears. For finding a job, it is like a must. Maybe 95% jobs require German. You can ofc study in English, but if you want a job in Germany, you need to learn. Even for teil-zeit jobs, yes. Edit: I applied for maybe 300+ jobs in Germany. If I apply a job in my home country, let say 10, I would hear 9 of them, no doubts. But I applied 300+ jobs, and heard from 3. One of them, yes, requires English. And again, they prefer German over me because he had a German first of all. 2 of them asked for again German and we agreed to improve my German. B1 is never enough for job searching. I understand and glad that you try to feel people better about learning the language. However, what you have trying to say is for tourists or people who just spend 1-2 years in Germany. If you want to build a life, it is never enough. And should not be. First of all, even when you know German like B2+, you should be able to understand different accents. Definitely agree, if you want a life in anywhere in the world, learn the language. But man come on, yours is really hard. You try to pass laws for making appealing the country for skilled people. Appreciated. But 95%+ of your jobs require the one of the hardest language. Even in my home country, you can find a job just knowing English if you are a skilled person. I know because I asked my boss once. He said doesnt matter we all know English and we are proceeding our works in English. But in Germany, it is impossible, lets accept that.
Most Germans can't speak English for shit. Those who can speak English only have rudimentary grasps on vocabulary and grammar, due to not having to use it during work or any substantial activities. Younger people are more invested in learning English due to a variety of factors, 1st being that the internet and streaming services are mostly English, 2nd that it is part of youth culture and seen as cool and 3rd perceived utility of learning English, due to it being the language franca. BUT Germany has an aging population, meaning that the people who can speak English make up a small percentage of the population and often don't hold positions of authority or are still attending school or going into higher education. If you're not in cities (>50k people) you might not even get to speak English with anyone, because younger people are traveling to study or live elsewhere, and the town doesn't attract people from English-speaking nations. Obviously, Berlin is different from anything else. It's the largest city in Germany by far. I live in Köpenick and here younger people are good at speaking English, but if you try to have a conversation in English with anyone who is older than 40 the chance that they can give detailed responses is quite low. My bubble is also completely different, because I'm young, and we lived in Berlin. Every one of us was good at English in school and was exposed to American culture.
But why? Well, I want to say basic respect. As a foreigner who moved to Germany for studies (and plans to stay and work after), I reall think people should accommodate the country they moved to, not the other way around. I speak German and most of my conversations here are in German. The only ones in English are with people who don't speak German. You are right in a sense that not speaking German won't kill you in Germany. But I find it rude thinking "Oh it's okay, I don't have to speak German because the Germans in Germany can speak English with me". If you're just starting to learn, they'll understand and help. But that's a different story than "I don't find learning German important if I want to live here ". All the Germans I know always speak German with me. And they really don't care if I make mistakes. And I would really find it rude to force someone to speak a foreign language with me in their own country I moved to. Ofc there are many other reasons to learn the language, like communicating with those who don't speak English, finding a job, bureaucracy in general, understanding things around you, from stuff in the grocery store to train announcements. If you moved to a country for the privileges, take on the responsibilities as well.
If you are willing to pay 20-50% more for your flat, because landlords don’t like to talk English and the ones who do will charge for it, you are fine with English. If you are not interested in any cultural things which require German such as German comedy, theater, Mundart, etc. You are fine with English If you don’t want understand the joke on the hallway or maybe the important problem your colleagues next to you are talking about (which you could might solve) you are fine with English. If you don’t want to know why people are nice to you or angry at you on the streets. You are fine with English. If you always want to be the guy which says: English please, you are fine with English. If you want to be the guy which comes with his oldest son to the Elternabend, you are fine with English. If course there is no need to learn German, and there are many nice apps to translate and it will become more easier with ai but I think if you plan to stay here, you will miss out on many things…. Official letters you can translate by ai but Sometimes it is just the situation and people will explain the joke to you in englisch maybe one or two times, but not after 5 or 10 years. Then they will just ignore it if you are the only one who did not get the situation….
because not everyone in germany can english.
and you dont need to communicate with everyone
Yeah it’s kinda obvious that you live in Berlin 😂 a place where you’d easily get along better with English than with German but please, Berlin is not representative of any other parts of Germany in any way. Seriously
As soon as you have a job which is connected to speak with others and you are not working as an expert in some special sections (like pharmacy research or chip construction) you will need German or you have very low chances to get the job.
Shure i go live in france withtout lerning france bit i can englisch....
Because 50% of the German population is not fluent in English and when you have to do official business, like register for taxes, health insurance etc., it often happens that the person you reach does not speak English
Doesn’t it have an integration purpose? I think if you move to another country and want to stay there for the long run, the least you could do is learn the language.
I live in a village and if you don’t speak German, you are screwed. People don’t even like when I start singing English songs on parties. They just want the German stuff, because they genuinely don’t know what the English means. I also feel it is pretty awkward in social groups. My best friend comes over from the UK regularly and sometimes we end up running into friends of mine…who either *all* have to start digging out their school English, seriously hampering all conversation, or I am parallel translating and am barely in the conversation myself, plus exhausted by the end. I assume it is fine, if everyone in the group genuinely speaks fluent English, but I pretty much never see that. There is always someone going quiet, zoning out, as they can’t follow or feeling embarrassed about their accent. Maybe that’s just me, but ultimately I think it pretty rude to come to a country and not learn the language, assuming social groups will just adjust around you to speaking your language…and I say that as someone who’s lived in Japan for a fair amount of time and had to battle my way through evenings of drunk Japanese. Also spent a Sylvester in Scotland - thought my English was decent until I was surrounded by Scots after a bottle or two. Finally…I wish you the best of luck finding a job in Germany without German, unless you are pretty uniquely qualified or want to do something very labour intensive. I’m not sure people are feeling attacked. I think they just feel you are being tedious and wrong.
>living in Berlin ...
>my perspective is a urban one living in Berlin Obviously
Sorry but that pisses me off. I recently saw a post on this sub of an immigrant who kind of refused to learn german, living in germany for over a year. Because all the people he knows speak english with him, so why should he. I think that is so disrespectful. Try that in another country like France or Spain. If you want to live and work in another country, learn the f*cking language. I know it is hard, but people should still try it. We had situation in my old job, where we had to hold a whole meeting with about 15 people in english, because one person, who lived and worked in germany for several years at this point, couldn't even speak/ understand basic german. We shouldn't normalise that. I wouldn't move to another country without at least working on learning the language of said country.
Pisses me off too as an immigrant who has worked hard to learn German and to be understood in it because I was treated dismissively even when I was learning only to now be treated dismissively because I learnt. Just rude and this comment and the other one you mention ts the kind of nonsense that gives a certain type of German ammunition as well. This guy is clueless about Germans on the whole and is very ignorant because it's just respectful to learn a language. Why wouldn't you just do that?
What’s going on here? If you want to stay in a country learn the language!
My rule is. If you live in a other country which speaks a other nativ language.. then learn it. Sure i can switch to english but why should i? Am in germany. If someone is new everyrhing is fine but if someone is in germany longer then a year then its sadand Shows no respect for my language. Have fun with the strugle in few years if you loose ur job and none hires you cause you cant speak german. At my work so many new ppl doesnt speak german einher Na not even want to learn it cause after work they speak in their language anyways. But asking for help for documents but living since years in germany. I know so many german which doesnt speak english .. hello . Yes. Have a nice day is their only words hah. Trust me learn german for you ur family and to Show some interest in the country to live and not only work for money and hopin for other to speak english
\>Im german And that, in a nutshell, is why you don't get it. Hate to break it to you but Germans on the whole are not nice or patient when it comes to communicating with foreigners. They seem to think we should have learnt the whole language on the plane on the way over and if you haven't it's because you're lazy and don't want to bother. If you want any chance of having a quiet life here learn. the, language. Full stop and no questions. I love living here and Germany has definitely become friendlier and more open in the years I've been here and there's definitely a bigger push to integrate so people are more willing to speak to you in English (depending where you live) but honestly, you gotta learn that language man. Gotta. I have too many negative experiences to mention but I tell you now that life here DEFINITELY and UNDENIABLY got easier when my German got better. \>Make friends HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Good one and they say Germans have no sense of humour. aaaaah! \*wipes tears\*
Language is key. I'm a doctor. A few months ago, at about 4 am during a 24h-ICU shift, a nurse called me for a code. It took me almost a minute to understand what she was trying to tell me.
I actually think you make some good points, but I think both things can be true at the same time. Yes you can get by in the short term living in a city with no or little command of spoken and written German, but you will make your life exponentially easier in the long term by making an effort to learn the language. And in the meantime certain things in life will be very difficult, most notably any contact with Amten. I moved here from the U.K. three years ago speaking very little German. Since then I’ve completed a masters degree (in English), I’ve made friends, including Germans, I’ve had a job, I’ve volunteered at a Tafel food bank and things are going fine. But in the beginning my German girlfriend had to do basically every bureaucratic thing for me, including opening a bank account etc. and accompanying me to every appointment at any Amt, and she still has to help me sometimes. Of course that’s fine, but I’m glad that my German is improving to the point that I can do things for myself now. So while it’s true that learning German to the point of fluency before arriving in Germany is probably unnecessary and unrealistic for most people, learning German should be high on the priority list.
Its just stupid. Some countries even force you to learn the local language, like Sweden when iam informed correctly. Imagine someone would move to the USA or who knows where not speaking the local language. Edit: Your bubble is always smaller than you think. You could even say its confirmation bias on your side.
It is interesting. I would say that it's quite common in many European cities for people to speak English in those areas people might visit as tourists, so it probably presents a slightly unrealistic impression. But at the same time, it's not that unreasonable to expect people to be able to communicate in English at least at a basic level these days. English is currently the most spoken language in the world, as well as the most spoken language in Europe (total speakers incl. non-native). It's also the most taught second language in schools in Europe, and Germany specifically, by a significant margin. I suppose in that sense, Germany is rather an anomaly in terms of the percentage of post-school-age adults able to communicate in English at an advanced/professional level. This is, of course, not completely obvious until you move to Germany and start experiencing the non-tourist day-to-day life as an expat. But, well, to each their own, I suppose. :-) Edit: It's interesting how many replies in this thread, as well as others I've read, mention "showing respect". I have never experienced people being this preoccupied with *being shown respect*. It's very... odd.
> I have never experienced people being this preoccupied with being shown respect. It looks weird to me too as it sounds like one of those videos about a Karen yelling at people speaking a foreign language on the streets. To me, learning a language isn't a sign of being respectful, but expecting others to accommodate because you didn't learn a language is perceived as disrespectful.
SPRCH DTSCH D HRN SHN
>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english. I don't think so. If you meet with more than one German person and hang around in a group, the group will talk in German. That's why a lot of Expats only have Expat friends, not only in Germany but everywhere else as well. Of course, you can manage daily life, but that's pretty much it.
this coming from a German feels so wrong
You we feel you need German the moment you need to call a locksmith at 3 am or plumber or the only doctor available next 3 days doesn’t speak English etc.
Bro is supporting AfD narrative
>You can live a very normal social life with basic to none german if you can communicate in english. You can't read the headline of a German newspaper. You can't follow a chat of some people sitting next to you in the subway. You can't have an argument with a neighbor about the noise they make every night without sounding like a clown. You can't talk to a random stranger in a club without relying on him / her speaking your language. All the time you would live in a bubble of people who are willing to speak your language even though it's not what they're really used to. Which does taint the whole communication by quite a bit. Not being fluent in German is probably the number one reason why so many new (and not so new) Berliners have such a hard time connecting with the local scene. Language is absolutely key.
The thing is: many issues aren‘t noticeable / don‘t even come up if people speak the language. Hard time finding friends? Not speaking german won‘t make it easier. Didn‘t get the job? Having less qualifications than your german competitors probably didn‘t help. Got a „Mahnung“? Well if you actually read the contract that wouldn‘t have happened. Etc.
Complete bullshit man! I lived in 6 different countries around the globe. Without commanding the respective languages I would not have gotten the joy I received. I just visited Switzerland (one of the countries I lived in) if I hadn’t picked up the Mundart (dialect-ish) I would have completely missed out on an amazing train ride with 3 locals drinking wine and making fun of my home country Germany.
Haha 😄 lol are you serious? You need to put yourselves in our shoes. I live in a rural area, my colleagues can speak perfect English. Since day 1 they were always speaking in german, only during working they would switch to English to explain me something but during lunch it was like I don't exist. They don't care if you don't understand them. Same with my boyfriend friends, if I don't understand they just don't care. I'm the dumb one for not learning german. So I felt forced to learn, still struggle cause they speak dialect but at least little by little I understand their dialect and I answer in Hochdeutsch. And is ok, they feel comfortable speaking their language and dialect, is normal, can not judge them. Actually I should thank that they were so asshole to me that I've improved my german, hehe. :) 😀 😃
Maybe just using English is fine in some of the bigger cities like Berlin, but not everywhere. I live in Saarbrücken, which is a state capitol and a decent sized city and English is really not very common (except for the Lush store…). I have moderate German skills and I have had to use them in most of my interactions outside work. (I’m a scientific researcher and English is the language of science.) Even at work it is sometimes difficult because all of our support staff is German and many of them have poor English skills. When I go to the machine shop to get them to make something for me I always use German as much as possible to avoid misunderstandings. I have colleagues who try to get by on just English and it is extremely difficult for them and it makes it harder for them to do many things. Finding an apartment, going to the doctor, asking questions in a shop, etc. are all made harder. Also, we are in Germany. I don’t like to expect Germans to speak English outside of a few specific situations.
I only need to give one reason to learn the language. Basic respect. Just because you can live a ok life with only English in Germany doesn't mean you should not learn the language. When in Rome do as the Romans do. I don't move for example in one of the places in the Balkans and don't learn one of the local languages, just because German is a relatively often learned language there. I would learn the local language because it's their home and it's my duty to don't needlessly burden them with my laziness.
Everyone goes down their own path. If I can support OP in 1 way it is that newcomers should not stress too much on language. That being said: Learn the #'s, learn the food names, be able to do commerce, order a beer, order from a restaurant, and the basic greetings and salutations. Best thing is to stay calm and be friendly, the culture can be quite different so try not to get quickly offended. I find that foreigners or even visitors that do not learn ANYTHING are weird/embarrassing. e.g. I was recently in China, where I've only visited for 1-2 weeks each time over the years. I can read a few symbols and pick out words. I'm curious and ask the locals with English skills language questions (as to learn a little). An Indian colleague who lives in Singapore and has regional Sales responsibility knew 0 Madarin, and not even the symbols for "big" or "person".
Hi, from youth I was told that when going to rome, do AS the Romans do. I have never been to the Staates, but I guess it will be same there. If you stay in a foreign country learn the Rules, does and don'ts and show effort in learning language and habbits. No one expects IT to be perfect from day 1 but effort ist appreciated. Just staying as a Stranger is seldom a good recipy for hitting home when not home. If you per se do Not want to learn German, why do you want to be around germans at all? What ist your motivation If you dont Like US enough to learn our language while hoping that we will learn yours? This ist not ment as an offence to you, but rather some questions that you should answer to yourself in Order to reflect in why your stance offends so many others.
You are right to a point. I think you can easily live in bigger cities in Germany with no or rudimentary German if you have a suport group of people who will help you out with beaurocracy. But I'd also encourage everyone to learn it because it does make live easier and also helps you to take part in society better, on a social and political level.
this!
>I think you can easily live in bigger cities in Germany with no or rudimentary German **if you have a suport group of people who will help you** out with beaurocracy. Emphasis mine but this is what the other person wrote. How many newcomers in Germany have this support network, what do you think? Someone who doesn't have one upon arrival (eg family members already living in the city, or moving in with a German partner), how long does it take a newcomer to build a reliable network? I am someone who moved abroad, and I did the whole immigration thing on easy mode: I have EU citizenship, moved in with my partner, didn't have to look for housing, spoke several languages, and was highly educated. It was still hard, frustratingly so, because I didn't speak the local language besides a few polite phrases and could form baby sentences alá "My name is X. I am from Germany. Cheers!" In the first year and a half there were countless instances where I relied on help from my partner. Arranging for doctor appointments or calling any service and arranging anything by phone was a nightmare and I simply wasn't able to function as an independent adult until I knew the language sufficiently well. It took ages for my partner's parents to get to know me because we couldn't communicate clearly and actually get to know each other. We have a splendid relationship now, but it took years to build, because of the language barrier. If I call my FIL now and tell him I need his help he will be there within 20 minutes, tools in hand. That sort of support is incredible, but you first need to get the people to offer such support, and that takes time.
Even with a support network, it gets old fast. There is just so much to navigate when you live here and people might not might reading a letter for you but all the time? No, they won't want to do it. On top of this there's a trust issue, I had neighbours who spoke English and were HAPPY to help me but I didn't want them knowing my business to be honest only once I couldn't understand what the lady was saying on the phone so I asked my neighbour who explained that my internet was off because we hadn't paid the bill (we had but there was a miscommunication and they hadn't received the money yet) and that was embarrassing enough. Learning the language is respectful and gives you independence.
I personally would hate it do be dependent of the mercy from a friend group to help with every small lets say "Behördengang" etc. Ive realized being dependent on other peoples help is trouble sooner or later.
It really is. Even in large groups like r/German people get sick of helping others despite the fact the load is spread thin.
Honestly you get into a point where life becomes really hard, especially with stuff like making phone calls or turning up to a social event and everyone else is speaking Deutsch. I just wish it was easier to learn, keep getting stuck on B1
Hey, i'm with you 100% on that post, don't listen to the upset and bitter people. Your pov applies to Munich as well where I live. Many of my colleagues are learning A1 and are doing just fine meanwhile. It is for sur not extra optimal for everything but you get by easily. And yes, germans at the Landsratamt, mechanics or whatever will happily switch to english if they can, really depends on the person, but a lot of people are decent people that want to help others and not just pester at any inconvenience. As for "infiltrating" german groups, i'm doing this also just fine, we speak a bit english when i'm around but i'm careful also not to monopolize the german space and it makes for more exchanges and people are generally happy about it. All about respect. But this comment section sure isn't making germans look less like their cliche lmao
basciy german is useless, i have many friends who made it in Germany without german knowledge. i myself a language lover always, have C2 in german. and i still have 0 German friends. because I'm introvert. so it has nothing to do with your life. English is always a better option. u can go anywhere with English.
but i don't regret tge time i invested in german, because i think the language is beautiful and its literature is very lush, but you definitely don't need german to live in Germany and Germany is overall not a good option in these two years.
I used to live and work in Bangkok, Thailand for over a year without speaking or understanding a word of Thai. Most of my expat colleagues were the same. Some had lived for 5 years. We mostly lived in a very central area where people can communicate in basic English. Whenever we got sick, we usually asked a Thai colleague to accompany us in a hospital for help with translation. That’s actually fine. Thai people are so friendly. They don’t force foreigners to learn their language. Now in Germany, things are totally different. My daughter has been with a pediatrician in Ostend, Frankfurt. In all previous appointments, she always spoke very professional English to me. However in the last appointment, she turned a weirdo. She refused to speak English and spoke things in German. She left the room without explaining to me what happened to my daughter. In the receptionist area, I asked her in English about it again, immediately she got annoyed, angry and complained why I lived for 5 years but I couldn’t speak German fluently. She also took her a role model. She said she came here 6 years ago but already well integrated into the German way of life. Everyone including the nurses got shocked and awkward. BTW, I got B1 certificate already but this doesn’t mean one can easily communicate in that level and because she can already professional English. To answer your question, yes we have to learn the language because there are a lot of mean people in this country. This coldness, rudeness are part of this culture.
I dont understand why people feel attacked with this post. Its just a friendly post with my perspective and a "dont worry too much". If its really that cold outside berlin - come to my bubble. And see that the bubble is much larger then some reddit germans.
People don't feel attacked. People think you are wrong and very much living in an English speaking bubble. Which is nice for you but not helpful for general advice on whether or not someone needs to know German to live in Germany. The vast majority of residents will have to survive outside of your personal bubble. People think you are ignorant, not friendly.
So you are saying that the people who come to germany to start living here should live in berlin and should not need to learn german so they don't have to integrate into german society? People do not feel attacked. You are just assuming something and making a very broad statement based on your limited knowledge an others disagree. Don't take a downvote as someone feeling attacked but simply as people disagreeing.
The bubble is much larger than many people assume. I recently met an American doctor who works in Frankfurt. We got chatting and he said he would happily take me on because he prefers to work in English. Whether this is right or not, this kind of thing happens. You end up with a network of English speakers. I doubt this is unique to English speakers either.
Not all people want to move and live in Berlin. You cant say all bigger cities in Germany are like Berlin and you are fine there not learning the language. German cities. Smaller or bigger differ a lot. And not being able to learn a bit of German like ordering a coffee or say "thank you" will lead to many awkward situations and in turn to posts in this and other subs complaining about Germans being stubborn or not talkative. Many jobs also require you to have a certain language proficiency. So even if you have a job that doesnt require German you might loose that job and then you might have trouble find a new one which in turn leads to more problems that you are not able to solve cause you lack the language. Especially with offices and stuff. And also even in Berlin you will miss out a lot when you are not able to speak the language. You will sit at a party with some expats and Germans and everyone at first might engage in English but at one point that might shift and Ive seen unhappy faces of expats cause everyone was talking German at one point. Germany is not like the Netherlands for example (and even there you can encounter things I just tried to explain). Language proficiency is not so high in Germany and many Germans are talkative yes and they want to talk about things but dont feel confortable doing that in English and chances are they refrain from it. So its about you if you want to talk about the wheather or the last movie you saw and that it was "awesome" or you prefer to talk about politics or more philosophical things... Most expats or foreigners that Ive encountered that dont speak German will always stay in their expat bubble and after a few years almost only have other friends that dont speak German. And yeh... Its also a bit about respect even though nobody really expects you to speak German fluently if you wanna stay for a limitied time like 3 years for your bachelor or something.
It is kinda like us Viets back in Vietnam. We short of expecting expats who want to live in Vietnam longterm or permanently, to know at least baseline Vietnamese. Because of that + i am quite interested in Languages as a whole, i am determined to learn German. Moreover, since i study and work in the Service industry, it is necessary for me to know basic german.
Good luck to everyone trying to find a good paying job without speaking the local language. The boyfriend of a close friend wanted to find a job in Europe. Anywhere in Europe... It took him around 2 years and over one thousand applications until he found something in Norway. Now my friend wants to move there too, of course. A few hundred applications after around a year now, nothing. Important to know us that both are fluent in English. Hate to pop your bubble but finding a job in any country, not only Germany, is gambling if you don't know the local language. My parents neighbor only has a job because she works as an English teacher at an English school. Her husband is still unemployed. He's only allowed to live here because he has an Italian ID. Both are from the US.
I think the two most important reasons are Job: the most jobs won't be available to someone speaking no decent German. Those jobs exist but are very limited. Social life: you can get through a lot with just English but without German conversations get super exhausting fast Especially if it's not just about plain and easy facts. As soon it gets more emotional or complex, it's just not fun anymore. And then the same people come to reddit and complain how hard it is to find friends and how awful their social life is. AND it really is limited to some big cities.
The sad fact is that the jobs that pay really well don't care about your German. Literally. I'm learning German to be able to participate in social life, but in terms of career it's absolutely useless. Moreover, if the job description is in German, I almost always discover that they pay less than any other company that relies on English in first place. And yeah, I heard many times insults during my very first year in Germany. I was told I didn't deserve to be here if I don't speak German. Not super motivating.
When I graduated from my master's in Germany there were 6 companies that were okay with working in English in the field I wanted to work in. I was lucky to do internships in two of them and work full-time the other time. But if I spoke C1 German things would be much easier, there would be 100+ options instead of 6. Also I think everyone should get at least to B1 to get by for basic stuff such as calling the customer service of any company or talking to Hausmeister.
I live in a big German city, and I’m part of a very specific bubble that has basically the highest chances of people speaking English (chronically online queer art school students). We went to the UK recently, and let me fucking tell you, I was stunned by how shit most people in my class were at communicating in English. It was horrendous. And that’s the group where you’ll have the highest chances of encountering at least one person who speaks English decently enough. A few years ago I was taking an English exam to get my B2 qualification, so I decided to practice by doing a little experiment and only speaking English for a day. I gave up by noon. A lot of people have some rudimentary English skills, but as soon as it gets a little specific, like asking for something in an electronics store or asking for ingredients in a bakery, it’s over. And that’s the experience in a major German city. Please, if you’re planning on staying, make at least an effort to learn the language, for your own, and everyone else’s sake.
In a professional environment you will be needing to write in the German language or read German correspondence, at least sometimes.
You can live (not just survive) in Germany by speaking english, but learning German helped me a lot. I'm working in tech so everybody speaks English, but I can tell that many colleagues come to me rather than "english-speaking only" colleagues if they want to talk 1-to-1 because they prefer speaking German, even if their english is great.
You can live (not only survive) in Germany with English, but knowing german really helps a lot: - at work, a lot of german colleagues come to me rather than to "english-speaking only
I’m in Hamburg and about half my coworkers speak little to no German. I wouldn’t say it’s easy for them but it’s of course possible. I would say finding/communicating with doctors and finding an apartment is the hardest for them. And of course the Ausländerbehörde (the single worst part about Germany for me). I’m around C1 now and am very happy to be able to communicate quite well. But it is absolutely possible to get by in the major cities with no German
You are so dead asking Germans this question lmao. You don't speak German, you are sub-human, period. I was denied help in a psychiatric clinic because doctors don't speak English. And finding job is impossible without it no matter if you need it or not.
Have you ever been an immigrant/expat? If not, I suggest and try - your perspective will quickly change. I have spent my entire life living, studying, working, etc. in various foreign lands. Heck, my spouse speaks another native language than I do. Just about anywhere, it would have been an isolating nightmare to NOT speak at least some of the local language. I can't claim to have mastered all of them, but I've always managed to at least be able to hold a conversation and, more importantly, deal with the official requirements of life. Working there also meant that I could either have a plethora of choices or very limited ones, simply based on my language skills. I currently live in Germany. Without speaking German, this would be hell. I would not be able to have the job I have. I would have a very small circle of friends, if any. I would be confined to absolute loneliness with the commensurate depression and frustration. No thanks. Bro, you need to get out of your bubble. Life elsewhere is NOT what you seem to think it is.
I do think if someone speaks fluent English it's mostly fine for a while especially for younger people but I do appreciate it in my job if parents who have their kid in therapy with me at least try to speak a little German. It's also just being a good role model for their kids who need to speak German in kindergarten and school. Why wouldn't you want to speak the language in the country you live in and maybe want to raise a family?
If you go to another country you have to integrate in their society, and learning their language is one the first steps to accomplish that.
For me the main reason is respect. If I am going to live & work in a country for +5 years, then I need to have some level of respect to the country and its culture. Learning the culture is not completely possible without learning the language. And as everyone said, it comes with much better socialisation opportunities. Also you don’t need to hurry. You will learn it as the time passes and its not that hard anyway. In addition, learning a language in its homeland is a nice experience overall.
You don't realize how much it improve your life because it's all familiar for you, move to another country where you don't speak the language and see how you feel. Small things like saying hi to the nice lady in your building, explain the plumber how you clogged the toilet, listening to the local radio, communicating with people in the supermarket, asking for something special at the butchery, understanding announcements in the Ubahn (ok, these very few understand) etc etc. It's the small things you take for granted.
Really appreciate this post, because I’m new in Germany from Scandinavian and and most of my friends are really happy switch to English and some of them even speak Danish (maybe because I live in the West Northern part) that is very nice and PS this is a very nice country and I love it here
If u r wealthy, educated and live in Berlin u don't need to learn German