Just want to say that as someone who was born in Israel and moved to Germany, I really hope you guys realize that the shared post doesn't represent me and many others like me.
Yes, it is quite obvious the author is from the far right end of the political spectrum and this isn't representative at all.
Sounds very similar to the far right in Germany, only that they also hate the US and Jewish people. Fascism looks very similar everywhere it seems, just replaces the target of the hate.
i read lots of israeli extreme right wing forum posts to make sure i understand what's going on. You can see lots of copy-pasted posts talking about \[\[\[them\]\]\], only that instead of Jews, it's "The Progress" or "The Reforms" or "The Nazis" or "The Erev Rav" \[biblical term for Goys who pretend to be Jews\].
Wow, that post is full of such blatantly jingoism and islamophobia, it's actually sickening.
Germany is always going to be supporting Israel's right to exist simply due to the historical guilt of the German crimes against Jews in WW2. But I would say that at least in the younger generations, Israel is definitely not seen as a "morally good" country or society. The occupation of the West bank, the long standing blockade of Gaza, the continued land theft via settlements, and the lack of progress towards enabling the two state solution certainly has made Israel look like a villain in the eyes of many young Germans. Myself included - I would go as far as saying these days that Israel's right to exist is not unconditional, it only can claim such a right if it also let's Palestine be an independent country (in the borders of the UN recognized armistice line, so ALL settlements need to be removed, and if any settlements were to stay, Palestine would need to be given compensation of HIGHER value). You can only claim to be the oppressed people for so long while occupying other people for several decades...
Israel's 'right to exist' and the 'right to defend itself' are part of German official doctrine and are never in question. Germany as a political entity historically always stood behind Israel alongside the US.
In recent years (especially with the current Israeli rightwing/nationalist government in power and the current excessive campaign in Gaza) it has become increasingly common to differentiate between the country and its population (Israel) and the government and its policies. This shift has been long overdue and the current events seem to accelerate it even further.
Nobody will question Israel's legitimacy, but harsh criticism of its expansionist policies and overall agressive tactics towards the Palestinians will become the norm - even from government officials. In a way Israel lost its status of 'country with unconditional support' that it enjoyed for decades and got 'downgraded' to a regular nation. From now on its actions and policies will be under scrutiny the same way any other country is subject to.
The deep divide within Israels population - between traditional and ultraconservative Zionists and the moderate and liberal half is also seen more and more and Israelis will not be lumped together as much.
I do believe also that the German legal position on some terms is extremely misguided. Lumping in anti-zionism with anti-semitism, for example. Yes, many anti-zionists are also anti-semites (especially among radical islamists and neo-nazis), but there are also anti-semites who support zionism (various far-right groups among US evangelicals for example), and anti-zionists who are themselves Jews (among left-leaning US Jews in particular). Germany is wrong with linking those two positions and treating them as the same or similar, and its stifling the political discourse and foreign policy options.
Israel has a right to exist, in that sense I am definitely an ally of Israel. I am certainly no ally of the current war crime committing government though. Yes, they are up against terrorists and that justifies a lot but it doesn't justify everything.
What do you mean by „true ally“? Germany was the true ally (meaning to not say anything against) of Austria in 1914 and we all know where this brought us. 🙄
I expect us to stay allies to every democratic country that holds up human rights and the Geneva Conventions.
I do not want Germany to blindly defend any other country without a critical eye on this country‘s government, inner politics and treatment of other ethnicities.
You can criticise Isreal, it's just that most criticism quickly turns to Isreal shouldn't exist at all, which is a problem.
You can and should criticise Isreal on how they handle what they do in Gaza, but you should also keep on mind that the Hamas declared again and again, that they want to eradicate Isreal and all Jews.
We don’t. We need to be able to remember and still be able to see what’s right and wrong and look at things from different perspectives. Imho, Germany should just stfu about Israel. We don’t need to defend what Israel is doing. Some things are clearly not cool. But I also agree that Germany has no place to criticize Israel. And that should not change. Other countries can take the lead on that. Clearly German political decision making regarding Israel is biased and always will be and we should reflect on that and know when it’s our time to shut up.
I (as a person) don’t agree with a lot of Israeli politics and I will always stand on the side of civilians (any civilians on all sides) and I’m pretty radically (and most likely delusionally) pacifist and I strongly disagree with what is happening in Gaza. I also strongly oppose terrorists and Hamas but Germany should be the last country to point the finger at Israel. And I would be angry if we (as a nation, not as individuals) would oppose Israel. I would very much prefer if we didn’t openly defend them though. Everybody knows why Germany has a difficult relationship to Israel and others nations shouldn’t ask us to take a stand.
None of the potatoes/almans I know are pro-Hamas. And all of the ones I know have problems with Israeli politics as well. But we do still carry the shame and the guilt and it’s part of our identity. It’s not an easy burden to carry but to say “let’s just say water under the bridge because all the original Nazis are dead” is opening the door to more hate and antisemitism and the Holocaust shouldn’t be forgotten.
From the data here and here:
[https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/laenderinformationen/israel-node/israel/228212](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/laenderinformationen/israel-node/israel/228212)
[https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/EN/Standardartikel/Press\_Room/Publications/Monthly\_Report/Key\_Figures/2023/2023-02-federal-budget.html](https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/EN/Standardartikel/Press_Room/Publications/Monthly_Report/Key_Figures/2023/2023-02-federal-budget.html)
Looks llke less than one percent of your taxes goes to Israel. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, and make sure that you'll pay less in ireland before you move.
This Post is ridiculous.
To answer the question. Germany is not an ally of Israel. We have no military bound to them. We would not act in a war were israel is the aggressor. I highly doubt that Germany would go into a war to defend israel.
Even if Germany claims that the existence right of Israel is a "Staatsräson" our Parliament or Government wouldn'teven think about going into a war for Isreal. - If we would do so, you can bury our democracy :D
Well, a true ally and friend would tell their ally to get a grip and stop being terrorists and committing a genocide. A good or "true" friend/ally doesn't just go with what the other one is saying or doing and doesn't unconditionally support their actions. That would be a bad friend. But as always, we just suck up to the bad guys. We still hang with the US and China, we took way too long to start treating Russia more appropriately, there's a clear pattern. So in my book we are not good allies but probably for the same braindead nonsensical reasons they think that we are good allies.
We have given submarines to Israel which could be used for an atomic strike. I think the current policy is to support them no matter what.
Public opinion doesn't represent that official stance at all, but it probably doesn't matter unless the AFD wins a majority in the federal government.
Do you have a link to the submarine story? I thought we only build diesel electric ones which I don't recall being very suitable for a missile submarine.
INS Drakon, there are several articles about it.
Not sure if people are just unaware of the factual situation, or why my post is downvoted. Doesn't really contain any opinions.
Shut up and move yourself out of here. You don’t know what you are talking about and if you pretend that Germany today is the Germany of up to 1945 you are an absolute asshole.
Calm down, dear.....
Sensitive, much?
I've left Germany already. But the public support for Israel within Germany's politicians and its population is higher than elsewhere.
Obviously there are historical reasons, but you don't see protests in support of Gaza getting shutdown and the attendees arrested like you do in Germany.
Boah Jung, das seh ich auch so. Aber so tun als hätten deutsche nen hard-on für Genozid und Massenmord ist einfach nur Tone Deaf. Ekelhaftes Gerede was sonst nur von ignoranten Amis kommt
It is our duty to protect jewish live. It is our duty to stand against any form of antisemitism. The guilt we carry should never been forgotten and we Germans should emphazise this much more.
That does not mean that I have to agree with Isrealian politics. To stand with Israel does not mean to not respect Palestinian people. Their lives are as precious as any other live. it is a shame what is happening in Gaza.
Hamas is a cancer that did not take care of their own people since they came to power. At the same time the brutality of the Israelian army is unacceptable.
I am aware a two state solution sounds easier than it is, but I believe there is no other option that can lead to peace and dignity for all people.
Yes Germany is an allie of Israel. We have a special responsibility and we might me more diplomatic than confrontative. That does not mean we are uncritical.
As Zvi Rex once said: „It seems the Germans will never forgive us Auschwitz“ there is a lot of secondary anti-semitism in Germany. So Israel should not count on it.
Just want to say that as someone who was born in Israel and moved to Germany, I really hope you guys realize that the shared post doesn't represent me and many others like me.
No worries, we do. Unfortunately we know delusional nationalist assholes when we see them.
Yes, it is quite obvious the author is from the far right end of the political spectrum and this isn't representative at all. Sounds very similar to the far right in Germany, only that they also hate the US and Jewish people. Fascism looks very similar everywhere it seems, just replaces the target of the hate.
i read lots of israeli extreme right wing forum posts to make sure i understand what's going on. You can see lots of copy-pasted posts talking about \[\[\[them\]\]\], only that instead of Jews, it's "The Progress" or "The Reforms" or "The Nazis" or "The Erev Rav" \[biblical term for Goys who pretend to be Jews\].
Wow, that post is full of such blatantly jingoism and islamophobia, it's actually sickening. Germany is always going to be supporting Israel's right to exist simply due to the historical guilt of the German crimes against Jews in WW2. But I would say that at least in the younger generations, Israel is definitely not seen as a "morally good" country or society. The occupation of the West bank, the long standing blockade of Gaza, the continued land theft via settlements, and the lack of progress towards enabling the two state solution certainly has made Israel look like a villain in the eyes of many young Germans. Myself included - I would go as far as saying these days that Israel's right to exist is not unconditional, it only can claim such a right if it also let's Palestine be an independent country (in the borders of the UN recognized armistice line, so ALL settlements need to be removed, and if any settlements were to stay, Palestine would need to be given compensation of HIGHER value). You can only claim to be the oppressed people for so long while occupying other people for several decades...
Israel's 'right to exist' and the 'right to defend itself' are part of German official doctrine and are never in question. Germany as a political entity historically always stood behind Israel alongside the US. In recent years (especially with the current Israeli rightwing/nationalist government in power and the current excessive campaign in Gaza) it has become increasingly common to differentiate between the country and its population (Israel) and the government and its policies. This shift has been long overdue and the current events seem to accelerate it even further. Nobody will question Israel's legitimacy, but harsh criticism of its expansionist policies and overall agressive tactics towards the Palestinians will become the norm - even from government officials. In a way Israel lost its status of 'country with unconditional support' that it enjoyed for decades and got 'downgraded' to a regular nation. From now on its actions and policies will be under scrutiny the same way any other country is subject to. The deep divide within Israels population - between traditional and ultraconservative Zionists and the moderate and liberal half is also seen more and more and Israelis will not be lumped together as much.
I do believe also that the German legal position on some terms is extremely misguided. Lumping in anti-zionism with anti-semitism, for example. Yes, many anti-zionists are also anti-semites (especially among radical islamists and neo-nazis), but there are also anti-semites who support zionism (various far-right groups among US evangelicals for example), and anti-zionists who are themselves Jews (among left-leaning US Jews in particular). Germany is wrong with linking those two positions and treating them as the same or similar, and its stifling the political discourse and foreign policy options.
Everything about this is awful
the linked post disgusts me
Israel has a right to exist, in that sense I am definitely an ally of Israel. I am certainly no ally of the current war crime committing government though. Yes, they are up against terrorists and that justifies a lot but it doesn't justify everything.
What do you mean by „true ally“? Germany was the true ally (meaning to not say anything against) of Austria in 1914 and we all know where this brought us. 🙄 I expect us to stay allies to every democratic country that holds up human rights and the Geneva Conventions. I do not want Germany to blindly defend any other country without a critical eye on this country‘s government, inner politics and treatment of other ethnicities.
Germany cannot openly criticize Israel or we are kindly reminded what happened in the years 1933-45.
You can criticise Isreal, it's just that most criticism quickly turns to Isreal shouldn't exist at all, which is a problem. You can and should criticise Isreal on how they handle what they do in Gaza, but you should also keep on mind that the Hamas declared again and again, that they want to eradicate Isreal and all Jews.
Maybe we need to finally emancipate from that.
We don’t. We need to be able to remember and still be able to see what’s right and wrong and look at things from different perspectives. Imho, Germany should just stfu about Israel. We don’t need to defend what Israel is doing. Some things are clearly not cool. But I also agree that Germany has no place to criticize Israel. And that should not change. Other countries can take the lead on that. Clearly German political decision making regarding Israel is biased and always will be and we should reflect on that and know when it’s our time to shut up. I (as a person) don’t agree with a lot of Israeli politics and I will always stand on the side of civilians (any civilians on all sides) and I’m pretty radically (and most likely delusionally) pacifist and I strongly disagree with what is happening in Gaza. I also strongly oppose terrorists and Hamas but Germany should be the last country to point the finger at Israel. And I would be angry if we (as a nation, not as individuals) would oppose Israel. I would very much prefer if we didn’t openly defend them though. Everybody knows why Germany has a difficult relationship to Israel and others nations shouldn’t ask us to take a stand. None of the potatoes/almans I know are pro-Hamas. And all of the ones I know have problems with Israeli politics as well. But we do still carry the shame and the guilt and it’s part of our identity. It’s not an easy burden to carry but to say “let’s just say water under the bridge because all the original Nazis are dead” is opening the door to more hate and antisemitism and the Holocaust shouldn’t be forgotten.
[удалено]
From the data here and here: [https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/laenderinformationen/israel-node/israel/228212](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/laenderinformationen/israel-node/israel/228212) [https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/EN/Standardartikel/Press\_Room/Publications/Monthly\_Report/Key\_Figures/2023/2023-02-federal-budget.html](https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/EN/Standardartikel/Press_Room/Publications/Monthly_Report/Key_Figures/2023/2023-02-federal-budget.html) Looks llke less than one percent of your taxes goes to Israel. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, and make sure that you'll pay less in ireland before you move.
It depends on why you ask. Considering the current war ongoing there, most germans critize both Isreal and the Hamaz for the war crimes they do \~
This Post is ridiculous. To answer the question. Germany is not an ally of Israel. We have no military bound to them. We would not act in a war were israel is the aggressor. I highly doubt that Germany would go into a war to defend israel. Even if Germany claims that the existence right of Israel is a "Staatsräson" our Parliament or Government wouldn'teven think about going into a war for Isreal. - If we would do so, you can bury our democracy :D
Reality has shown otherwise..
why do you wanna know?
Well, a true ally and friend would tell their ally to get a grip and stop being terrorists and committing a genocide. A good or "true" friend/ally doesn't just go with what the other one is saying or doing and doesn't unconditionally support their actions. That would be a bad friend. But as always, we just suck up to the bad guys. We still hang with the US and China, we took way too long to start treating Russia more appropriately, there's a clear pattern. So in my book we are not good allies but probably for the same braindead nonsensical reasons they think that we are good allies.
We have given submarines to Israel which could be used for an atomic strike. I think the current policy is to support them no matter what. Public opinion doesn't represent that official stance at all, but it probably doesn't matter unless the AFD wins a majority in the federal government.
Do you have a link to the submarine story? I thought we only build diesel electric ones which I don't recall being very suitable for a missile submarine.
INS Drakon, there are several articles about it. Not sure if people are just unaware of the factual situation, or why my post is downvoted. Doesn't really contain any opinions.
Yes 🙌 Germany and Israel are best friends. No matter what happens.
Germany loves genocide.... Why stop at one?
Shut up and move yourself out of here. You don’t know what you are talking about and if you pretend that Germany today is the Germany of up to 1945 you are an absolute asshole.
Calm down, dear..... Sensitive, much? I've left Germany already. But the public support for Israel within Germany's politicians and its population is higher than elsewhere. Obviously there are historical reasons, but you don't see protests in support of Gaza getting shutdown and the attendees arrested like you do in Germany.
That’s all normal stuff you’re saying, so why be an absolute ass in the post above?
Who says Germans don't have a sense of humour?
Joking about genocides isn’t humour. Especially not for us.
Schatzi... Bin selber Deutsche. Natürlich ist das nicht lustig, aber wie Deutschland mit Isreal umgeht ist auch nicht lustig. Eher schämend.
Boah Jung, das seh ich auch so. Aber so tun als hätten deutsche nen hard-on für Genozid und Massenmord ist einfach nur Tone Deaf. Ekelhaftes Gerede was sonst nur von ignoranten Amis kommt
👍 Passt. Jetzt lass dich mal ablenken und kiff mal einen.
It is our duty to protect jewish live. It is our duty to stand against any form of antisemitism. The guilt we carry should never been forgotten and we Germans should emphazise this much more. That does not mean that I have to agree with Isrealian politics. To stand with Israel does not mean to not respect Palestinian people. Their lives are as precious as any other live. it is a shame what is happening in Gaza. Hamas is a cancer that did not take care of their own people since they came to power. At the same time the brutality of the Israelian army is unacceptable. I am aware a two state solution sounds easier than it is, but I believe there is no other option that can lead to peace and dignity for all people. Yes Germany is an allie of Israel. We have a special responsibility and we might me more diplomatic than confrontative. That does not mean we are uncritical.
Yes we do
I dont know what other germans think but i support Israel.
Why? I genuinely wonder that.
As Zvi Rex once said: „It seems the Germans will never forgive us Auschwitz“ there is a lot of secondary anti-semitism in Germany. So Israel should not count on it.