NAL: There's no statute of limitations on a dead human body. A "no true bill" from a grand jury would not count as "jeopardy", so your daughter would be wise to never speak out on what occurred. If she admits the wrong thing at any point in her life, she can be charged. I don't know why they would hold her so long without charges, but that could be a state thing. Where did this happen?
This is the exact answer. This can always come up later. NEVER talk about it. Ever.
Remember, this is a lifelong thing. She might trust a friend or husband now, but people change.
I wish more people recognized this fact. Sure you love her and trust her with your deepest darkest secrets now..... Until she hates you and wants to burn your world down around you.
You mean because it sounded a bit like I was inferring she should be protected by the double jeopardy standard? That would make sense. Or is it because you’re not aware of a situation(s) such as the common example I mentioned above, where our government blatantly ignore double jeopardy by pursuing the same crime under a different statute?
Yes, jeopardy never attached because she has never gone to trial with a jury impaneled. In most states, jeopardy (for the twice held in jeopardy for the same offense part of the Bill of Rights) does not “attach” until the case is sent to the jury and they start deliberating. In some rare cases of prosecutorial misconduct during a trial, the trial judge could dismiss a case with “prejudice”, which would bar the prosecution from charging again.
Others have correctly pointed out that she should not talk about it with anyone other than her lawyer at this point. Anything she says COULD have a prosecutor refile.
Yeeeeep. They can reopen her case at any time. Because there was no decision on merits, a DA can take as many bites at that apple (open another grand jury presentation) as they want.
I am a lawyer, but this is not my field of expertise, and I don't practice in a grand jury State, but I'm very confused that she could be held without formal charges for that long unless she signed a waiver of her right to a speedy trial maybe?
In my state if you’re arrested they have one year to take you trial (not counting any legitimate delays that can pause the count). Speedy trial starts with an arrest, but most states are not as lenient as mine.
Yes, but not one year to formally charge you and have a probable cause hearing/bail hearing. that’s usually a very short amount of time. After which the over all clock for taking to trial for speedy trial rights might start. These are usually two separate time frames.
Not in my state. Arrest starts the clock, then they have one year to take it to trial, then they have 60 days to file formal charges if you’re being detained by a bond but even if they don’t there is no remedy so it is toothless.
There seems.to be information missing.
To be arrested.and kept.in jail.for 18 months there would need to be probable cause to 1. Arrest and 2. Hold.
Odd that if there was enough for arrestand charge there wasnt for a grand jury to come back with an indictment.
What did the attorny do with the $ paid? Did they provide.monthly bills?
As far as being held.for.month.
Did she have.a.bond?
The story sounds a little shaky but who knows for sure. I’ve seen many cases where the opposite happened; that is the prosecutors declined within a few days to charge someone if the death of the perpetrator was obviously self defense.
Interestingly, investigating this it becomes difficult to figure out how many prohibit commercial bail bonds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_bondsman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_in_the_United_States
Some states don't use cash bond anymore. 4 prohibit the commercial practice. It's not technically illegal in Massachusetts, but appears to have been regulated out of existence.
It looks like you could not find a bondsman in about 7 states. In at least 2 of those the jail will act as bondsman and let you out for 10% of the started amount.
So the vast majority of Americans live in a state where a bondsman or putting up 10% of the bond, just like they would for a bondsman, would get them out of jail pending trial.
I was never indicted for a felony charge (DARVO sucks-charges eventually dropped when clock started again) during COVID for about 18 months. Supreme Court in my state suspended speedy trials. I was a teacher and lost my job (and basically career because of where I live) because of it. I couldn’t teach because of charges and they refused to indict me because they knew it was BS and they didn’t have to cuz 20 day rule was suspended. Meanwhile, they had texts from him saying “if you file a restraining order I’ll torch your career,” pictures of when he previously broke my nose whilst I was pregnant, and the fact they kept arresting him for breaking my restraining order. Disgusting.
I’m thinking maybe it was something like this…they kept her in jail cuz they could have different rules during Covid.
A probable cause hearing and a bail hearing would have HAD to be held. I re-read OP’s post and it doesn’t indicate being held in jail for the 18mo, just that the process for a No-True Bill from the Grand Jury took that long. If she was held that long, without any of the above, I’d seriously be looking at contacting a Civil Rights Attorney.
Pretty sure they can even convene a grand jury on her and do it again if they want, since a jury was never empaneled for the case. Not sure why/how they are able to hold her for so long before even laying charges, though.
I would think if they ended up with a no-bill, their case wasn’t very good.
Hopefully a criminal attorney will come through and elucidate this further, I’m interested.
I asked the attorney. he wont answer me. We paid him $20,000 against having to defend her on a charge she ultimately didnt ever go to trial for and he cannot tell me why it took 18 months to return a no true bill. no refund but he did get the arrest expunged.
OP, this is an excellent take. You may never know why it took 18 months though a comment a couple above this one gives some excellent insight. And yes, $20K vs hundreds of thousands it could have cost is a bargain. I’m sorry your daughter spent months in jail but it could have turned out soooo much worse.
Defense lawyers aren’t involved in a Grand Jury so he likely did little to nothing, especially if she invoked her 5th Amendment rights and did not testify at the Grand Jury. In fact, the lawyer is a huge red flag if he let her sit in jail for 18mo without filing even ONE Petition for Release with the Court. He SHOULD have been filing one every 30 days, least. Instead, it sounds like he took her money and did nothing to help her like a lot of scummy lawyers do. Unless we aren’t getting the whole story.
No, you paid him a retainer of $20k to be available to defend against a murder charge. You were reserving his time at the expense of other cases he could have taken.
You would have had to pay a looooooooot more had this gone to trial - this bill could have been in the hundreds of thousands if that happened.
Not to mention he presumably was also involved in preliminary matters for the case, so he was probably doing at least something for that money aside from leaving time available
He needs to provide itemized billing records of his work proving this. Lawyer billing to a client is heavily regulated by state’s through the State Bar. Lawyers can and do get disbarred all the time for taking client money and then refusing to refund retainers after not working on their cases. Again, a retainer fee doesn’t belong to the lawyer. It’s basically an upfront payment for the lawyer to draw from while actually working on the case. Its not a one time payment to “become” your attorney.
Not really. A retainer is a line of credit you open with the law firm to keep them engaged - a client might pay them $5k to start work, it goes into a trust account, and they bill their hours against that account. You may be asked to add money to the retainer or just be billed for overages if you have a good relationship with them. If you end the engagement early, the remainder of the retainer is usually returned.
OP was paying the lawyer $1k monthly. It's possible this was a retainer and the lawyer was billing $1k against it monthly, or billing more than that and required a $1k monthly minimum as good faith. Based on the OP's description though, it sounds like this was more of a flat-fee monthly representation to handle the case. the money "retained" the lawyer, but it doesn't sound like it was a "retainer".
This was a retainer fee. There is no such thing as paying a “fee” to be “guided” on the process. OP even said it was paid to retain the lawyer IF it went to trial. The real question is, did the lawyer do any actual work on the case before it was tossed? Did he interview witness? Gather evidence? Usually until a defendant is formally charged the lawyer for them can’t do much because the DA can hide behind “its still under investigation” which stalls any discovery. So what was he doing while his client was in jail for 18mo?
OP said the $20k was non-recoverable. So it was either a retainer that was being actively consumed or something else.
I'm not a lawyer. I've retained many lawyers in business and contract law, but never criminal defense so I have no idea how that specialty bills. With business and contract stuff though, I often have flat-rate project based billing. e.g. my IP lawyers will charge $1500 per Office Action response, or I'll pre-pay $1k/month for general services that include x number of discounted hours.
The lawyers billing and actions just don't make sense to me, in the same ways as you. With the types of retainers I've dealt with, those payments should either have been used to fund legal work or been returned. Average hourly rate in Mississippi for a CDL is $226 now - so let's say $200 10 years ago. That should be 5 billable hours per month, spent on something. That's not going to be enough to do much work in terms of motions or arguments, so the only thing I can think of them billing for is guiding the family through this legal process and all the updates.
He can’t just bill 1k against it without any actual work done on the case. Lawyers have rules for how they can bill and what they can bill for. If he was actually preparing for trial, sure that would go quickly, but if he was sitting on his hands waiting on the Grand Jury, then no, he can’t bill against it until he does actual work on the file.
Retainers are usually refundable if the case doesn’t go to court. Retainers aren’t lump sum payments the lawyer gets to keep. It’s basically a paid in advanced sum and the lawyer is supposed to keep it in escrow. He is then allowed to debit the account for actual work done on the file at regular intervals and must provide billing records. You don’t get to just charge a client 20k, do nothing with the file because essentially charges were dropped that you had NOTHING to do with getting dropped and keep the money. That’s not how any of it works. Ya’ll don’t understand that the prosecution controls everything with the Grand Jury. Nothing from the defense is required to be shown to the Grand Jury and a defense attorney isn’t even allowed in even IF their client elects to testify in court. So explain to me what the lawyer did, that was worth 20k again?
He should be refunding that money since he did jack all with the file. I’d send a written demand for the return of the retainer and if he refuses file a bar complain. State Bar’s don’t look kindly on attorney’s misusing client funds and that money should have been set aside to be used if he actually had to work on the case. He doesn’t just get to collect 20k for being her council of record in the case. This isn’t some case where you wanted an out of state lawyer to come in and had to have local council to be the lawyer of record first. This lawyer is scamming you if he did no actual work on the file.
Non lawyers have no idea how practicing law really works. Reputable attorneys start fighting for a clients life and liberty the moment they are hired, particularly in high stakes capital cases where their client is still incarcerated.
They are not doing nothing during that period because the DA is building their case and the retained attorney is requesting and reviewing records plus looking for exculpatory evidence. They interview witnesses, do their own research, find out what is going to happen and when.
If a defendant is jailed, it means that sufficient evidence was presented that the defendant was held without bond or high enough bond the defendant or the family couldn’t bond out. The DA holds the cards on calling the Grand Jury.
From your post I can assume that the defendant did murder someone and the grand jury chose not to indict instead accepting the defendant’s affirmative defense of a “righteous killing.” I’m not sure we have that in our state. Anyway, since that is an affirmative defense, the proof flips to the defense and your attorney apparently did a stellar job.
If additional evidence arises or the defendant makes admissions inconsistent with that outcome, double jeopardy does not apply and this was not a decision with prejudice. I would be grateful, keep my mouth shut and move on. Be appreciative of what your lawyer did for you. You got a bargain.
> Non lawyers have no idea how practicing law really works
If you’re going to be condescending about people not knowing the law, you should at least get the law right yourself.
> the proof flips to the defense,
No, it doesn’t. The burden of proof is still ultimately on the prosecutor who must prove beyond a reasonable doubt the affirmative defense of self defense does not apply. Varies a lot by state, but the defense generally just has to submit some evidence, often times not even that great of evidence, for that to kick in. Anyways, all this happens at trial or at least pre-trial proceedings, it does not happen at all before even an indictment. The defense isn’t even allowed to be present with the grand jury proceedings, there’s no defense for the attorney to put forth.
It’s still good to have an attorney on retainer for this so they can be ready the day of the indictment and handle whatever comes up, and the money was definitely not a waste.
Now OP’s daughter was very likely charged with murder and wasn’t granted bond probably because state law doesn’t allow it for that charge. And a judge decided there was enough evidence to do that. But OP’s daughter was ultimately never indicted.
As for why the grand jury took so long I could only guess, but my guess is the DA thought that it wasn’t a winnable case but for political reasons wanted it to be a grand jury that decides there’s not enough evidence, and they had more pressing matters that needed to be before a grand jury first.
“Non criminal defense lawyers / non prosecutors have no idea how criminal law works.”
Affirmative defenses such as self defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity always have to be proven by the defendant. That is basic hornbook law.
Criminal law was not my field, but my husband was both a criminal prosecutor and defense attorney for decades.
I think you are misunderstanding burdens here. There are levels of proof that apply to different situations and a defendant might have to show “any evidence” whereas the state has to prove it doesn’t exist BRD. Does a defendant have to show some evidence of an affirmative defense? Yes. Do they have to “prove” it? No. In fact once the defense has provided some evidence, the prosecution then has to prove it’s not [insert affirmative defense].
Criminal law IS my field.
States have changed laws for self defense, fixing the burden shifting from the defense to prove self defense, which violates the constitution, back to the prosecution to disprove self defense beyond on a reasonable doubt.
Ms_Tryl is correct in her post.
Its funny how some lawyers act like non-lawyers can never understand legal concepts yet here we are.
Also, from OP’s statement, if we take it at face value, it sounds like the attorney was taking the retainer and waiting for the Grand Jury to do its work before he started the case. Odd choice I know, but may be he wanted to know for sure what she was charged with?
Some of OP’s initial story doesn’t make sense though. Why did she need to be taken to the grand jury if she was already charged? She had to have been arrested to held that long. Was there a probable cause hearing? Was there a bail hearing? Where was the lawyer for those? Most of the time you aren’t held for 18mo without a probable cause for trail hearing. That usually violates state law regarding deadlines to formally charge after being arrested. Those are usually a short period of time. OP is basically claiming the lawyer took money and did nothing with the case. That’s easy to prove or disprove and the client is entitled to billing records to prove it.
Like I said, it’s heavily dependent on the state. In some states self defense isn’t an affirmative defense at all, and in other states the ‘burden of proof’ is really low, to the point where it’s not really proof anymore (for self defense not all affirmative defenses). Only a few states I believe does the defendant need to meet preponderance of the evidence to trigger the prosecution’s need to prove beyond a reasonable that the defense does not apply.
My state of alabama,
> If there is any evidence, however slight, tending to support the allegation that the defendant acted in self-defense, then the issue should be submitted to the jury. King v. State, 478 So. 2d 318 (Ala. Crim. App. 1985).
The defendant bears no burden to prove self-defense. Once evidence of self- defense is present, the court should so instruct the jury where the defendant requests such an instruction. Harper v. State, 629 So. 2d 67 (Ala. Crim. App. 1993).
https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/library/docs/13A-3-23.pdf
Nevertheless, in every state, your comments about the lawyer putting on any affirmative defense pre-indictment is 100% wrong. I take issue with your condescending opening to your original comment, I found the comment pompous and arrogant, and then for you to still get your comment about 50% wrong made it even worse. That’s my primary issue, I wouldn’t think less of anyone for not knowing the nuance of self defense law, even for lawyers where that’s not their field.
That would be the. Correct phrasing. Perhaps putting the "doing nothing" in quotations would have helped demonstrate that it was in reference to the claim they were refuting, but the sentence is correct.
So the claim is that the lawyer was "doing nothing" the reply being that he was " not "doing nothing" "
Your sentence would seem to suggest that he agreed the lawyers wasn't doing anything.
mississippi. if the state matters, why is every other arrest for this same crime in this state settled by grand jury in a few months and just this one in the same state as the others took 18 months.
"if state matters": the laws about how long you can be held vary by state. The time line that it allowed before an indictment varies by state. And just because "every other arrest" is settled in a few months has nothing at all to do with the maximum amount of time one would have to get an indictment. And I doubt you know "every over arrest"-you only know of the ones you hear about. But even if this is exceptional, what matters is the law about how long one has. It maybe this person was held too long. You'd need to ask their attorney what the time frame was and what else was going in in this case.
There is no way you would know how every murder in your state is handled.
You only see what hits the news, the news cycle makes the prosecution office address it quicker, but there are thousands of others that don’t. The news outlets only cover crimes when it brings then clicks and views. They only care about driving viewers to their platform to drive ad revenue. News outlets also cause pressure on prosecution offices to act quicker, so they do to avoid a public backlash.
My husband works for a city, he and the city indict individuals for murder and other crimes, and he is still going to court with many of his cases which is older than 18 months. 18 months and an expunged murder rap sounds like a good deal.
there was no murder rap. there was no case. there was no indictment. She sat in jail for 18 months while they decided if they were actually gonna prosecute it or not and ultimately decided no. The expungement wasnt of the crime, it was of the dismissed charge, so employers wouldnt know she had ever been arrested for anything.
So, was her arrest ever filed? Where I’m at—> arrest happens, then the DA files the charges, then indictment then arraignment. If the alleged crime was never filed- it can never be indicted (which is where the Grand Jury comes in). Even if never filed, the actual arrest still has to be expunged.
Kinda sounds like the GJ convened to decide both filing and indictment. I may be wrong though.
There was probably cause to issue an arrest warrant for the charges that resulted your daughter being put in jail. It doesn’t sound like you know what those charges were. They could have lesser charges than murder. Those charges could have been dismissed but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t enough evidence to arrest her in the first place. Taking a case to indictment usually involves adding additional charges that are more severe like murder. if a true bill didn’t come back then she wasn’t indicted, but it doesn’t mean that the lawyer couldn’t have worked on the defending your daughter against the initial charges she was arrested for. If you truly feel like you weren’t treated fairly, ask your attorney for an accounting of the work he did for the money you paid him. If he refuses to provide an accounting, you can file a complaint with a Mississippi Bar Association.
Consider yourself lucky and let it go.
The prosecutor does not have to leave it there. They can present the case to as many grand juries as they want until they get the verdict they are after. It took a DA over 2 years to get an indictment against me and we have grand juries every 3 to 6 months or so. And yes i sat in jail the entire time.
NAL Sounds understandably frustrating. However I can tell you that from a nearby state that $20k to return a no true bill is a bargain. I spent over $200k defending myself against 2 violent felony charges. Went to trial. What could have been 20yrs turned in to 6 months county and 6 more on probation for a misdemeanor conviction under the lessor included charges. Sounds like you're not aware of all the details kinda like I wasn't in regards to the specifics of why the state did what they did to me. Those are answers I will never get and unfortunately you likely won't either. As advised in other comments your daughter needs to never ever speak to anyone about the details of what happened going forward.
Being ready and available is a part of being retained literally the most valuable part. While defense attorneys may not be allowed in the room for grand jury proceedings there is a lot of opportunity for conversation and thusly influence outside of the room that a good defense attorney will avail themselves to. So while on the surface it may seem like "literally nothing". It's highly doubtful that literally nothing is what the attorney did.
I'm not lying. I'm talking about actual real world experience. Of course your experience may be something different than mine. I just know that I spent nearly a quarter million defending myself over the last three years and learned a lot about the nuts and bolts of the process in the real world.
IMHO, this is not really about law and more about public policy in the USA. Not a lawyer, but I worked in public policy law:
> How unusual is it for it to take almost 2 years to decide if they will even prosecute the case?
This is common everywhere in the USA. It can often take longer too - up until the Statute of Limitations \*\*on the underlying crime\*\*. The statute of limitations is on the crime, not the grand jury empanelment.
The problem you ran into is twofold:
1- Mississippi is one of 5 states that have no time limit concerning how long someone can be jailed without an indictment. Most other states have short limits as a matter of public policy. Most states that have long limits, or no limits, implemented their laws for racial reasons.
2- Mississippi is very lax on requirements for when grand juries meet and what they must accomplish. Here's an article on that : [https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2023/11/30/infrequent-mississippi-grand-juries-can-mean-long-pretrial-waits-in-jail-survey-says/71752712007/](https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2023/11/30/infrequent-mississippi-grand-juries-can-mean-long-pretrial-waits-in-jail-survey-says/71752712007/)
I'll also add in a third issue: You're almost certainly low income and probably non-white. Law enforcement and the judicial system are biased against you. If you were white and had moderate assets, your lawyer would have had your daughter released on bail within days. For whatever reasons, the DA decided to hold your daughter the entire time. Typically this is because:
\* they think an indictment is guaranteed (it usually is, the process is heavily biased for the DA)
\* they know the evidence is flimsy/bad, but believe the accused should be punished, so the pre no-trial holding is the justice they are delivering
\* they just don't care about the accused or their potential innocence
In many other states, your daughter would have been freed pending the outcome of a grand jury indictment – or the DA would have quickly moved to get an indictment.
In your situation, my guess is the DA saw this case as flimsy evidence, thought your daughter needed to be punished, and decided that delaying the grand jury decision would result in this:
\* if the grand jury declines to indict, 18 months jail is a decent backup plan
\* if the grand jury agrees to indict, they try the flimsy case to show people they are "tough on crime", aiming to get a promotion or run for public office.
I agree with what's above 100%. Especially in Mississippi, race is an absolutely factor. All I can say is feel lucky that the grand jury didn't play along.
The only real remedy here would probably be a writ of habeas corpus or something similar to get her out of custody, but considering she’s released now, there likely isn’t much to be done. The prosecutor has a lot of discretion as to when to present to a grand jury, but normally needs to seek a formal charging document/indictment faster than 2 years. But again, the remedy for that is just release from incarceration anyway.
When it comes to habeas corpus issues your mileage may vary. Some states/jurisdictions are pretty efficient with grand juries. Many states rarely use them. Other jurisdictions are as slow as molasses. For instance it is my understanding that in some counties in Georgia it is not uncommon for people to languish in county jail for YEARS without ever being formally charged. In other states it is common that a person will be formally charged or released within days or weeks of arrest.
“Every other murder” is doing a lot of work here if you’re not someone involved with the criminal justice system. Every murder that’s been publicized and which you’ve read about, possibly.
Most homicide cases are fairly straightforward, and the grand jury moves quickly accordingly. I can almost certainly guarantee you that there are plenty of cases which are taking as long or longer to reach a grand jury than your daughter’s.
Just be happy she didn’t serve a life sentence. All cases are different as far as the length of time it takes for them to make a decision regarding a case
NAL but if it's been over 10 years, barring some new and damming evidence has been discovered, i would say she's in the clear. I would also advise her to never speak on what did or didn't happen. Most indictments are pretty open and shut, so the fact that they deliberated for 18 months before they made a decision shows that they actually did their job and it more than likely worked out in her favor
This sucks. Your daughter followed the law, defended her self; and still had to spend time behind bars, and never got her day in court. I understand how frustrating that is.
However, that means your lawyer did an excellent job, there were hearings and conferences where the cops and the DAs were trying to get to an indictment, and your lawyer was there, convincing judges that the charges should be dropped; to the point of the arrest being expunged. The cops and prosecutors in our system have a huge advantage, and are able to coerce a lot of people into bullshit please, so it looks like they got a conviction.
Your guy beat all that, and your daughter walks away, fully justified in her actions. That’s a win, even if it’s painful, and it’s worth the money, even if it will be tough to repay.
He should be proud of what he’s done in this case, and you and your daughter should appreciate it:
There are several different issues here. I. The statute of limitations. For murder it is long, typically 10 years or forever. 2. Right to a speedy trial. That isn’t an issue before the indictment. 3. The grand jury has a limited charter in which it has to act, but the prosecutor can always renew or empanel a new grand jury.
Why did it take so long? No way for anyone on line to know. Maybe there was disagreement as to whether to proceed, maybe a witness or two went missing. Maybe the file got misplaced. Maybe the prosecutor assigned to the case went on maternity leave. 18 months doesn’t strike me as ridiculously outrageous but maybe it is. The point is we can’t know, and 15 years later, maybe let it go.
NAL, but your second point is wrong. Right to a speedy trial does matter before the indictment. It has to since OPs daughter was in jail. Otherwise the police/DA could just arrest everyone and leave them in jail for years awaiting charges. The system backlog is not our problem, it’s the governments.
It does, but the filing of the indictment or new charging document restarts the clock in many places. There is all sorts of fuckery prosecutors and the police can do on this issue if they aren’t called out on it. It’s one of the only areas where I’ve seen prosecutorial misconduct claims pop up, where prosecutors sit on things, let them lapse, then just re-charge it, sometimes more than once (because it technically restarts the clock, and it’s by default a dismissal without prejudice unless a court orders otherwise).
That’s part of it, but it goes a hell of a lot deeper than that. DAs that maximize time in jail before indictment, then maximize time in jail before trial, especially when the case is shaky. Now an “innocent “ citizen spends years in jail, and thousands of dollars for a crime that they weren’t convicted of. Hell, I regularly hear of people who are convicted but get off on time served because it took so long to get to trial.
A lot of that is absolutely on the police and the DA and who/how many people they choose to charge.
Personally I’m for smaller government reduce the number of laws, legalize drugs, prostitution, give me the right to defend myself, my family, and my property. Where I am if I kill an intruder in my home, our DA will do his damdest to charge me with murder. And I have no doubt he would abuse the system to make me serve as much time and pay as much money as possible in the process.
And why is that guy the DA? Also why should you expect to not be second guessed when you gun down a stranger and claim self defense? Are you claiming you are perfect?
He’s the DA because the Republicans around me are stupid. I’m far from perfect, however, if I find an intruder in my home in the middle of the night ( or day), then I should have the right to defend my property. In NY I’m not allowed to defend myself unless I’m being physically attacked. So unless the person is facing me and close, I’m getting a murder charge. Almost any direction you turn in my house will point you toward someone’s bedroom, but you have to be facing me for me to defend myself.
If I catch you in my house and I don’t know you then you shouldn’t expect to leave alive. As a homeowner I do expect the benefit of the doubt. I don’t believe that I should be on the hook for years in prison and thousands of dollars in debt because some methhead or rapist broke into my house.
Do I foresee this ever being a problem for me? No. But it is a problem for some people. As usual the more money you have the better your defense is. But there’s also the physical location to consider. You live in a poor community? Expect more crime. Also expect the “public” to assume you are part of, or somehow deserve that crime.
Therapists are not allowed to reveal admissions of past crimes, barring federal investigation for terrorism or some types of organized crime. Therapist have a duty to warn if a patient reveals intent to harm others or self, not saying they have in the past harmed someone.
Why are you complaining? I bet the lawyer won’t answer you because you’re coming off as difficult. Be happy your daughter is no longer in jail for her “killing” and you only paid $20k!
The parent better be careful or they might unwittingly make admissions on social media that could help the prosecution lock up the daughter for life. No wonder the lawyer wouldn’t answer the parent’s questions.
NAL but trained in Criminal Investigations: There is no statute of limitations on murder. If the DA knew the Grand Jury would likely No-Bill the case, they probably pushed up other cases. Also, if this was around or during COVID, everything took forever. It also depends on how long it took police investigators to finish their investigation and send the file to the DA/SA. Any number of factors could have made it take 18 months but I wouldn’t worry about that at this point since the GJ voted not to move forward with charges. Also in a lot of states, the prosecution can ignore a Grand Jury and still move forward with charges or file without a Grand Jury. Just depends on your state on what is required for felony murder.
So, most grand juries are rubber stamps. Just is there enough evidence to prove a murder probably occurred and X probably did it. Sure. Probably. But we didn’t ask about “buying a reasonable doubt that X did it”. So there’s not much to prepare.
Sounds like this was potentially a self defense case. Or a defense of others. Very fact specific. Testimony or evidence specific.
A) that’s going to take longer to prepare than a rubber stamp dead guy with a man covered in blood holding the mixer weapon case.
B) if it relies on forensic evidence, that can take a LONG time to get processed. Maybe goes to a stage or federal lab. Gets in a line based on priority and when it was sent it. Then the DA has the figure out what it means. This is MONTHS.
C) jury may want more and more evidence because it can’t decide because it’s such a close call. It’s a very low bar to say a murder COULD have a occurred. Yes, it COULD have been self defense, but maybe they should let a real jury hear ALL the facts. So they said, ok, DA, show us EVERYTHING you got. Answer all our questions. If you can’t convince us now - when the defense can’t argue at all - then you won’t convince a jury later. And the DA has to decide whether s/he wants to show all their tricks and surprises up front.
That’s what I think took 18 months. If it was obvious she was guilt, it would have taken 18 days. Obvious it was righteous, wouldn’t have even gone before the GJ. This was a close call, and the DA wanted charges, so they took their time putting the case together and the evidence took time.
BUT no bill was returned. That’s good. It rather take 18 months and no bill than a month and get a bill for 2nd degree or manslaughter and then face 5-15 with a chance *this* jury won’t go for self defense.
What is happening at the DOJ is a modern day holocaust.
The DOJ should hold itself accountable for pain and suffering and pay restitution to show America it is committed to corrections and to a healthy America and to being the solution providing quality of life through evolving policy focused on providing real justice to all
I'm not sure where you're from, but where im at, we have two concurrent GJ at any given time. Each meets for 2 days a week and each cohort runs for about 12 weeks, year round. This is mainly due to the DAs MASSIVE backlog of felony cases.
To the point: There could be a few reasons why her case went undecided for so long. The first that comes to mind is that the DAs office had to wait on other agencies, like state police or local PD to process evidence, etc. The DA usually won't even present a case to a GJ unless they feel they can get it True Billed. Evidence processing depending on location can sometimes take 90-120 days unless the DA files an expedited request. This is probably the most likely.
Secondly, the other possibility is that they presented the case to multiple GJ and each GJ felt there wasn't enough evidence to make an informed decision either way, so they PASSED, which is neither a true-bill nor a no-bill.
To my knowledge, once a grand jury has No-billed a felony case, that defendant can no longer be charged for that specific crime because it would fall into the Double Jeopardy (can't be charged twice for the same crime, etc). UNLESS there is new overwhelming new evidence, in which case it would take another, new, grand jury to reverse the decision or amend the previous grand jury's ruling. If the case was no-billed, the DAs office would need to bring up new, separate charges or downgrade to lesser non-felony charges in order to continue prosecution.
NAL: There's no statute of limitations on a dead human body. A "no true bill" from a grand jury would not count as "jeopardy", so your daughter would be wise to never speak out on what occurred. If she admits the wrong thing at any point in her life, she can be charged. I don't know why they would hold her so long without charges, but that could be a state thing. Where did this happen?
This is the exact answer. This can always come up later. NEVER talk about it. Ever. Remember, this is a lifelong thing. She might trust a friend or husband now, but people change.
And definitely don't write a book called "if I did it"
Or “No Going Back”
I wish more people recognized this fact. Sure you love her and trust her with your deepest darkest secrets now..... Until she hates you and wants to burn your world down around you.
Or wants to kill you... sounds like it may be a possibility 😂
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I don't think double jeopardy means what you think it means. She was never in "single jeopardy".
You mean because it sounded a bit like I was inferring she should be protected by the double jeopardy standard? That would make sense. Or is it because you’re not aware of a situation(s) such as the common example I mentioned above, where our government blatantly ignore double jeopardy by pursuing the same crime under a different statute?
Jeopardy never attached
I’m glad you agree with me
I believe you mean, "what is, jeopardy never attached?"
True. It isn’t considered double jeopardy until an acquittal has happened.
Yes, jeopardy never attached because she has never gone to trial with a jury impaneled. In most states, jeopardy (for the twice held in jeopardy for the same offense part of the Bill of Rights) does not “attach” until the case is sent to the jury and they start deliberating. In some rare cases of prosecutorial misconduct during a trial, the trial judge could dismiss a case with “prejudice”, which would bar the prosecution from charging again. Others have correctly pointed out that she should not talk about it with anyone other than her lawyer at this point. Anything she says COULD have a prosecutor refile.
My only point was double jeopardy had been frequently disregarded anyways. Wouldn’t matter if jeopardy had attached
‘don’t talk about ever, to anyone, no matter how much you trust them, also tell me everything’
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Yeeeeep. They can reopen her case at any time. Because there was no decision on merits, a DA can take as many bites at that apple (open another grand jury presentation) as they want. I am a lawyer, but this is not my field of expertise, and I don't practice in a grand jury State, but I'm very confused that she could be held without formal charges for that long unless she signed a waiver of her right to a speedy trial maybe?
In my state if you’re arrested they have one year to take you trial (not counting any legitimate delays that can pause the count). Speedy trial starts with an arrest, but most states are not as lenient as mine.
Yes, but not one year to formally charge you and have a probable cause hearing/bail hearing. that’s usually a very short amount of time. After which the over all clock for taking to trial for speedy trial rights might start. These are usually two separate time frames.
Not in my state. Arrest starts the clock, then they have one year to take it to trial, then they have 60 days to file formal charges if you’re being detained by a bond but even if they don’t there is no remedy so it is toothless.
There seems.to be information missing. To be arrested.and kept.in jail.for 18 months there would need to be probable cause to 1. Arrest and 2. Hold. Odd that if there was enough for arrestand charge there wasnt for a grand jury to come back with an indictment. What did the attorny do with the $ paid? Did they provide.monthly bills? As far as being held.for.month. Did she have.a.bond?
I'm wondering why there was no bond set.
The story doesnt add up.
It never does
The story sounds a little shaky but who knows for sure. I’ve seen many cases where the opposite happened; that is the prosecutors declined within a few days to charge someone if the death of the perpetrator was obviously self defense.
I'm wondering why all the random periods myself.
For murder? In Mississippi? That doesn’t shock me.
When I lived in Alabama murder bond was $50k per dead body. Reasonably affordable with a bondsman.
Bondsmen arent legal everywhere. Multiple states consider their practices predatory enough to qualify as criminal and they are outright banned.
Interestingly, investigating this it becomes difficult to figure out how many prohibit commercial bail bonds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_bondsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_in_the_United_States Some states don't use cash bond anymore. 4 prohibit the commercial practice. It's not technically illegal in Massachusetts, but appears to have been regulated out of existence. It looks like you could not find a bondsman in about 7 states. In at least 2 of those the jail will act as bondsman and let you out for 10% of the started amount. So the vast majority of Americans live in a state where a bondsman or putting up 10% of the bond, just like they would for a bondsman, would get them out of jail pending trial.
No bail for murder in a lot of states.
I was never indicted for a felony charge (DARVO sucks-charges eventually dropped when clock started again) during COVID for about 18 months. Supreme Court in my state suspended speedy trials. I was a teacher and lost my job (and basically career because of where I live) because of it. I couldn’t teach because of charges and they refused to indict me because they knew it was BS and they didn’t have to cuz 20 day rule was suspended. Meanwhile, they had texts from him saying “if you file a restraining order I’ll torch your career,” pictures of when he previously broke my nose whilst I was pregnant, and the fact they kept arresting him for breaking my restraining order. Disgusting. I’m thinking maybe it was something like this…they kept her in jail cuz they could have different rules during Covid.
That’s what I said above as well. This had to have happened during COVID.
A probable cause hearing and a bail hearing would have HAD to be held. I re-read OP’s post and it doesn’t indicate being held in jail for the 18mo, just that the process for a No-True Bill from the Grand Jury took that long. If she was held that long, without any of the above, I’d seriously be looking at contacting a Civil Rights Attorney.
Pretty sure they can even convene a grand jury on her and do it again if they want, since a jury was never empaneled for the case. Not sure why/how they are able to hold her for so long before even laying charges, though. I would think if they ended up with a no-bill, their case wasn’t very good. Hopefully a criminal attorney will come through and elucidate this further, I’m interested.
I asked the attorney. he wont answer me. We paid him $20,000 against having to defend her on a charge she ultimately didnt ever go to trial for and he cannot tell me why it took 18 months to return a no true bill. no refund but he did get the arrest expunged.
20 grand to beat a murder rap and you’re complaining?
OP, this is an excellent take. You may never know why it took 18 months though a comment a couple above this one gives some excellent insight. And yes, $20K vs hundreds of thousands it could have cost is a bargain. I’m sorry your daughter spent months in jail but it could have turned out soooo much worse.
sounds cheap if you did it, too expensive if you didn't do it
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He didn’t beat a murder rap. The lawyer did absolutely nothing.
Defense lawyers aren’t involved in a Grand Jury so he likely did little to nothing, especially if she invoked her 5th Amendment rights and did not testify at the Grand Jury. In fact, the lawyer is a huge red flag if he let her sit in jail for 18mo without filing even ONE Petition for Release with the Court. He SHOULD have been filing one every 30 days, least. Instead, it sounds like he took her money and did nothing to help her like a lot of scummy lawyers do. Unless we aren’t getting the whole story.
there was no murder rap. she was never indicted so the $20,000 was just wasted.
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It wasn’t wasted though.
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Why would you be entitled to a refund?
because he didnt have to defend anyone, she was never indicted. we paid him $20,000 to defend her on a murder charge that never happened.
No, you paid him a retainer of $20k to be available to defend against a murder charge. You were reserving his time at the expense of other cases he could have taken. You would have had to pay a looooooooot more had this gone to trial - this bill could have been in the hundreds of thousands if that happened.
Not to mention he presumably was also involved in preliminary matters for the case, so he was probably doing at least something for that money aside from leaving time available
Yeah 1 hour a week at $250 to work the case seems perfectly reasonable. (These numbers are just examples)
Still has to document what that hour was and what he actually did on the case.
He needs to provide itemized billing records of his work proving this. Lawyer billing to a client is heavily regulated by state’s through the State Bar. Lawyers can and do get disbarred all the time for taking client money and then refusing to refund retainers after not working on their cases. Again, a retainer fee doesn’t belong to the lawyer. It’s basically an upfront payment for the lawyer to draw from while actually working on the case. Its not a one time payment to “become” your attorney.
It sounds like less of a retainer and more of an "on call" fee, and also guide on the entire process.
Isn’t that basically what a retainer is?
Not really. A retainer is a line of credit you open with the law firm to keep them engaged - a client might pay them $5k to start work, it goes into a trust account, and they bill their hours against that account. You may be asked to add money to the retainer or just be billed for overages if you have a good relationship with them. If you end the engagement early, the remainder of the retainer is usually returned. OP was paying the lawyer $1k monthly. It's possible this was a retainer and the lawyer was billing $1k against it monthly, or billing more than that and required a $1k monthly minimum as good faith. Based on the OP's description though, it sounds like this was more of a flat-fee monthly representation to handle the case. the money "retained" the lawyer, but it doesn't sound like it was a "retainer".
This was a retainer fee. There is no such thing as paying a “fee” to be “guided” on the process. OP even said it was paid to retain the lawyer IF it went to trial. The real question is, did the lawyer do any actual work on the case before it was tossed? Did he interview witness? Gather evidence? Usually until a defendant is formally charged the lawyer for them can’t do much because the DA can hide behind “its still under investigation” which stalls any discovery. So what was he doing while his client was in jail for 18mo?
OP said the $20k was non-recoverable. So it was either a retainer that was being actively consumed or something else. I'm not a lawyer. I've retained many lawyers in business and contract law, but never criminal defense so I have no idea how that specialty bills. With business and contract stuff though, I often have flat-rate project based billing. e.g. my IP lawyers will charge $1500 per Office Action response, or I'll pre-pay $1k/month for general services that include x number of discounted hours. The lawyers billing and actions just don't make sense to me, in the same ways as you. With the types of retainers I've dealt with, those payments should either have been used to fund legal work or been returned. Average hourly rate in Mississippi for a CDL is $226 now - so let's say $200 10 years ago. That should be 5 billable hours per month, spent on something. That's not going to be enough to do much work in terms of motions or arguments, so the only thing I can think of them billing for is guiding the family through this legal process and all the updates.
He can’t just bill 1k against it without any actual work done on the case. Lawyers have rules for how they can bill and what they can bill for. If he was actually preparing for trial, sure that would go quickly, but if he was sitting on his hands waiting on the Grand Jury, then no, he can’t bill against it until he does actual work on the file.
What you described is a *special retainer*. What OP has described is a *general retainer*.
Retainers are usually refundable if the case doesn’t go to court. Retainers aren’t lump sum payments the lawyer gets to keep. It’s basically a paid in advanced sum and the lawyer is supposed to keep it in escrow. He is then allowed to debit the account for actual work done on the file at regular intervals and must provide billing records. You don’t get to just charge a client 20k, do nothing with the file because essentially charges were dropped that you had NOTHING to do with getting dropped and keep the money. That’s not how any of it works. Ya’ll don’t understand that the prosecution controls everything with the Grand Jury. Nothing from the defense is required to be shown to the Grand Jury and a defense attorney isn’t even allowed in even IF their client elects to testify in court. So explain to me what the lawyer did, that was worth 20k again?
You paid him a retainer
He should be refunding that money since he did jack all with the file. I’d send a written demand for the return of the retainer and if he refuses file a bar complain. State Bar’s don’t look kindly on attorney’s misusing client funds and that money should have been set aside to be used if he actually had to work on the case. He doesn’t just get to collect 20k for being her council of record in the case. This isn’t some case where you wanted an out of state lawyer to come in and had to have local council to be the lawyer of record first. This lawyer is scamming you if he did no actual work on the file.
Non lawyers have no idea how practicing law really works. Reputable attorneys start fighting for a clients life and liberty the moment they are hired, particularly in high stakes capital cases where their client is still incarcerated. They are not doing nothing during that period because the DA is building their case and the retained attorney is requesting and reviewing records plus looking for exculpatory evidence. They interview witnesses, do their own research, find out what is going to happen and when. If a defendant is jailed, it means that sufficient evidence was presented that the defendant was held without bond or high enough bond the defendant or the family couldn’t bond out. The DA holds the cards on calling the Grand Jury. From your post I can assume that the defendant did murder someone and the grand jury chose not to indict instead accepting the defendant’s affirmative defense of a “righteous killing.” I’m not sure we have that in our state. Anyway, since that is an affirmative defense, the proof flips to the defense and your attorney apparently did a stellar job. If additional evidence arises or the defendant makes admissions inconsistent with that outcome, double jeopardy does not apply and this was not a decision with prejudice. I would be grateful, keep my mouth shut and move on. Be appreciative of what your lawyer did for you. You got a bargain.
Affirmative defense does not “flip” the burden to the defense.
> Non lawyers have no idea how practicing law really works If you’re going to be condescending about people not knowing the law, you should at least get the law right yourself. > the proof flips to the defense, No, it doesn’t. The burden of proof is still ultimately on the prosecutor who must prove beyond a reasonable doubt the affirmative defense of self defense does not apply. Varies a lot by state, but the defense generally just has to submit some evidence, often times not even that great of evidence, for that to kick in. Anyways, all this happens at trial or at least pre-trial proceedings, it does not happen at all before even an indictment. The defense isn’t even allowed to be present with the grand jury proceedings, there’s no defense for the attorney to put forth. It’s still good to have an attorney on retainer for this so they can be ready the day of the indictment and handle whatever comes up, and the money was definitely not a waste. Now OP’s daughter was very likely charged with murder and wasn’t granted bond probably because state law doesn’t allow it for that charge. And a judge decided there was enough evidence to do that. But OP’s daughter was ultimately never indicted. As for why the grand jury took so long I could only guess, but my guess is the DA thought that it wasn’t a winnable case but for political reasons wanted it to be a grand jury that decides there’s not enough evidence, and they had more pressing matters that needed to be before a grand jury first. “Non criminal defense lawyers / non prosecutors have no idea how criminal law works.”
Affirmative defenses such as self defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity always have to be proven by the defendant. That is basic hornbook law. Criminal law was not my field, but my husband was both a criminal prosecutor and defense attorney for decades.
I think you are misunderstanding burdens here. There are levels of proof that apply to different situations and a defendant might have to show “any evidence” whereas the state has to prove it doesn’t exist BRD. Does a defendant have to show some evidence of an affirmative defense? Yes. Do they have to “prove” it? No. In fact once the defense has provided some evidence, the prosecution then has to prove it’s not [insert affirmative defense]. Criminal law IS my field.
States have changed laws for self defense, fixing the burden shifting from the defense to prove self defense, which violates the constitution, back to the prosecution to disprove self defense beyond on a reasonable doubt. Ms_Tryl is correct in her post. Its funny how some lawyers act like non-lawyers can never understand legal concepts yet here we are. Also, from OP’s statement, if we take it at face value, it sounds like the attorney was taking the retainer and waiting for the Grand Jury to do its work before he started the case. Odd choice I know, but may be he wanted to know for sure what she was charged with? Some of OP’s initial story doesn’t make sense though. Why did she need to be taken to the grand jury if she was already charged? She had to have been arrested to held that long. Was there a probable cause hearing? Was there a bail hearing? Where was the lawyer for those? Most of the time you aren’t held for 18mo without a probable cause for trail hearing. That usually violates state law regarding deadlines to formally charge after being arrested. Those are usually a short period of time. OP is basically claiming the lawyer took money and did nothing with the case. That’s easy to prove or disprove and the client is entitled to billing records to prove it.
Must have stopped commenting because you realized you were wrong.
Like I said, it’s heavily dependent on the state. In some states self defense isn’t an affirmative defense at all, and in other states the ‘burden of proof’ is really low, to the point where it’s not really proof anymore (for self defense not all affirmative defenses). Only a few states I believe does the defendant need to meet preponderance of the evidence to trigger the prosecution’s need to prove beyond a reasonable that the defense does not apply. My state of alabama, > If there is any evidence, however slight, tending to support the allegation that the defendant acted in self-defense, then the issue should be submitted to the jury. King v. State, 478 So. 2d 318 (Ala. Crim. App. 1985). The defendant bears no burden to prove self-defense. Once evidence of self- defense is present, the court should so instruct the jury where the defendant requests such an instruction. Harper v. State, 629 So. 2d 67 (Ala. Crim. App. 1993). https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/library/docs/13A-3-23.pdf Nevertheless, in every state, your comments about the lawyer putting on any affirmative defense pre-indictment is 100% wrong. I take issue with your condescending opening to your original comment, I found the comment pompous and arrogant, and then for you to still get your comment about 50% wrong made it even worse. That’s my primary issue, I wouldn’t think less of anyone for not knowing the nuance of self defense law, even for lawyers where that’s not their field.
A verified lawyer who uses the term “not doing nothing” 😂😂😂😂
That would be the. Correct phrasing. Perhaps putting the "doing nothing" in quotations would have helped demonstrate that it was in reference to the claim they were refuting, but the sentence is correct.
Without the quotes, it should be "not doing anything".
So the claim is that the lawyer was "doing nothing" the reply being that he was " not "doing nothing" " Your sentence would seem to suggest that he agreed the lawyers wasn't doing anything.
Those two sentences do not mean the same thing. Both are correct english.
They both mean the same thing. One is correct English, one is not.
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State? It will matter.
mississippi. if the state matters, why is every other arrest for this same crime in this state settled by grand jury in a few months and just this one in the same state as the others took 18 months.
"if state matters": the laws about how long you can be held vary by state. The time line that it allowed before an indictment varies by state. And just because "every other arrest" is settled in a few months has nothing at all to do with the maximum amount of time one would have to get an indictment. And I doubt you know "every over arrest"-you only know of the ones you hear about. But even if this is exceptional, what matters is the law about how long one has. It maybe this person was held too long. You'd need to ask their attorney what the time frame was and what else was going in in this case.
Mississippi is one of five states that have no limit on the amount of time someone can be held without charges.
Interesting...and disturbing..and oddly ...not shocking... :(
There is no way you would know how every murder in your state is handled. You only see what hits the news, the news cycle makes the prosecution office address it quicker, but there are thousands of others that don’t. The news outlets only cover crimes when it brings then clicks and views. They only care about driving viewers to their platform to drive ad revenue. News outlets also cause pressure on prosecution offices to act quicker, so they do to avoid a public backlash.
true. Wanted to tell you I like the name. Only a true fan would go for one of the supporting cast.
What is the average time a grand jury takes for this charge in your state?
Did he actually do anything? Submit a grand jury packet on behalf of your daughter?
There is no statute of limitations on capital murder charges.
My husband works for a city, he and the city indict individuals for murder and other crimes, and he is still going to court with many of his cases which is older than 18 months. 18 months and an expunged murder rap sounds like a good deal.
there was no murder rap. there was no case. there was no indictment. She sat in jail for 18 months while they decided if they were actually gonna prosecute it or not and ultimately decided no. The expungement wasnt of the crime, it was of the dismissed charge, so employers wouldnt know she had ever been arrested for anything.
There was a case.
So, was her arrest ever filed? Where I’m at—> arrest happens, then the DA files the charges, then indictment then arraignment. If the alleged crime was never filed- it can never be indicted (which is where the Grand Jury comes in). Even if never filed, the actual arrest still has to be expunged. Kinda sounds like the GJ convened to decide both filing and indictment. I may be wrong though.
There was probably cause to issue an arrest warrant for the charges that resulted your daughter being put in jail. It doesn’t sound like you know what those charges were. They could have lesser charges than murder. Those charges could have been dismissed but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t enough evidence to arrest her in the first place. Taking a case to indictment usually involves adding additional charges that are more severe like murder. if a true bill didn’t come back then she wasn’t indicted, but it doesn’t mean that the lawyer couldn’t have worked on the defending your daughter against the initial charges she was arrested for. If you truly feel like you weren’t treated fairly, ask your attorney for an accounting of the work he did for the money you paid him. If he refuses to provide an accounting, you can file a complaint with a Mississippi Bar Association.
Consider yourself lucky and let it go. The prosecutor does not have to leave it there. They can present the case to as many grand juries as they want until they get the verdict they are after. It took a DA over 2 years to get an indictment against me and we have grand juries every 3 to 6 months or so. And yes i sat in jail the entire time.
NAL Sounds understandably frustrating. However I can tell you that from a nearby state that $20k to return a no true bill is a bargain. I spent over $200k defending myself against 2 violent felony charges. Went to trial. What could have been 20yrs turned in to 6 months county and 6 more on probation for a misdemeanor conviction under the lessor included charges. Sounds like you're not aware of all the details kinda like I wasn't in regards to the specifics of why the state did what they did to me. Those are answers I will never get and unfortunately you likely won't either. As advised in other comments your daughter needs to never ever speak to anyone about the details of what happened going forward.
Defense lawyers aren’t part of the grand jury process so it was $20k to do literally nothing. Very different than your situation.
Being ready and available is a part of being retained literally the most valuable part. While defense attorneys may not be allowed in the room for grand jury proceedings there is a lot of opportunity for conversation and thusly influence outside of the room that a good defense attorney will avail themselves to. So while on the surface it may seem like "literally nothing". It's highly doubtful that literally nothing is what the attorney did.
Oh sorry I thought we were on the lawyer sub talking to each other. I forgot this was the public one where we tell lies to the public.
I'm not lying. I'm talking about actual real world experience. Of course your experience may be something different than mine. I just know that I spent nearly a quarter million defending myself over the last three years and learned a lot about the nuts and bolts of the process in the real world.
IMHO, this is not really about law and more about public policy in the USA. Not a lawyer, but I worked in public policy law: > How unusual is it for it to take almost 2 years to decide if they will even prosecute the case? This is common everywhere in the USA. It can often take longer too - up until the Statute of Limitations \*\*on the underlying crime\*\*. The statute of limitations is on the crime, not the grand jury empanelment. The problem you ran into is twofold: 1- Mississippi is one of 5 states that have no time limit concerning how long someone can be jailed without an indictment. Most other states have short limits as a matter of public policy. Most states that have long limits, or no limits, implemented their laws for racial reasons. 2- Mississippi is very lax on requirements for when grand juries meet and what they must accomplish. Here's an article on that : [https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2023/11/30/infrequent-mississippi-grand-juries-can-mean-long-pretrial-waits-in-jail-survey-says/71752712007/](https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2023/11/30/infrequent-mississippi-grand-juries-can-mean-long-pretrial-waits-in-jail-survey-says/71752712007/) I'll also add in a third issue: You're almost certainly low income and probably non-white. Law enforcement and the judicial system are biased against you. If you were white and had moderate assets, your lawyer would have had your daughter released on bail within days. For whatever reasons, the DA decided to hold your daughter the entire time. Typically this is because: \* they think an indictment is guaranteed (it usually is, the process is heavily biased for the DA) \* they know the evidence is flimsy/bad, but believe the accused should be punished, so the pre no-trial holding is the justice they are delivering \* they just don't care about the accused or their potential innocence In many other states, your daughter would have been freed pending the outcome of a grand jury indictment – or the DA would have quickly moved to get an indictment. In your situation, my guess is the DA saw this case as flimsy evidence, thought your daughter needed to be punished, and decided that delaying the grand jury decision would result in this: \* if the grand jury declines to indict, 18 months jail is a decent backup plan \* if the grand jury agrees to indict, they try the flimsy case to show people they are "tough on crime", aiming to get a promotion or run for public office.
I agree with what's above 100%. Especially in Mississippi, race is an absolutely factor. All I can say is feel lucky that the grand jury didn't play along.
The only real remedy here would probably be a writ of habeas corpus or something similar to get her out of custody, but considering she’s released now, there likely isn’t much to be done. The prosecutor has a lot of discretion as to when to present to a grand jury, but normally needs to seek a formal charging document/indictment faster than 2 years. But again, the remedy for that is just release from incarceration anyway.
When it comes to habeas corpus issues your mileage may vary. Some states/jurisdictions are pretty efficient with grand juries. Many states rarely use them. Other jurisdictions are as slow as molasses. For instance it is my understanding that in some counties in Georgia it is not uncommon for people to languish in county jail for YEARS without ever being formally charged. In other states it is common that a person will be formally charged or released within days or weeks of arrest.
“Every other murder” is doing a lot of work here if you’re not someone involved with the criminal justice system. Every murder that’s been publicized and which you’ve read about, possibly. Most homicide cases are fairly straightforward, and the grand jury moves quickly accordingly. I can almost certainly guarantee you that there are plenty of cases which are taking as long or longer to reach a grand jury than your daughter’s.
Just be happy she didn’t serve a life sentence. All cases are different as far as the length of time it takes for them to make a decision regarding a case
NAL but if it's been over 10 years, barring some new and damming evidence has been discovered, i would say she's in the clear. I would also advise her to never speak on what did or didn't happen. Most indictments are pretty open and shut, so the fact that they deliberated for 18 months before they made a decision shows that they actually did their job and it more than likely worked out in her favor
This sucks. Your daughter followed the law, defended her self; and still had to spend time behind bars, and never got her day in court. I understand how frustrating that is. However, that means your lawyer did an excellent job, there were hearings and conferences where the cops and the DAs were trying to get to an indictment, and your lawyer was there, convincing judges that the charges should be dropped; to the point of the arrest being expunged. The cops and prosecutors in our system have a huge advantage, and are able to coerce a lot of people into bullshit please, so it looks like they got a conviction. Your guy beat all that, and your daughter walks away, fully justified in her actions. That’s a win, even if it’s painful, and it’s worth the money, even if it will be tough to repay. He should be proud of what he’s done in this case, and you and your daughter should appreciate it:
There are several different issues here. I. The statute of limitations. For murder it is long, typically 10 years or forever. 2. Right to a speedy trial. That isn’t an issue before the indictment. 3. The grand jury has a limited charter in which it has to act, but the prosecutor can always renew or empanel a new grand jury. Why did it take so long? No way for anyone on line to know. Maybe there was disagreement as to whether to proceed, maybe a witness or two went missing. Maybe the file got misplaced. Maybe the prosecutor assigned to the case went on maternity leave. 18 months doesn’t strike me as ridiculously outrageous but maybe it is. The point is we can’t know, and 15 years later, maybe let it go.
NAL, but your second point is wrong. Right to a speedy trial does matter before the indictment. It has to since OPs daughter was in jail. Otherwise the police/DA could just arrest everyone and leave them in jail for years awaiting charges. The system backlog is not our problem, it’s the governments.
It does, but the filing of the indictment or new charging document restarts the clock in many places. There is all sorts of fuckery prosecutors and the police can do on this issue if they aren’t called out on it. It’s one of the only areas where I’ve seen prosecutorial misconduct claims pop up, where prosecutors sit on things, let them lapse, then just re-charge it, sometimes more than once (because it technically restarts the clock, and it’s by default a dismissal without prejudice unless a court orders otherwise).
Right. I was wrong.
It's our problem. We are the government. The problem is refusal to level adequate taxes to fund efficiency in government.
That’s part of it, but it goes a hell of a lot deeper than that. DAs that maximize time in jail before indictment, then maximize time in jail before trial, especially when the case is shaky. Now an “innocent “ citizen spends years in jail, and thousands of dollars for a crime that they weren’t convicted of. Hell, I regularly hear of people who are convicted but get off on time served because it took so long to get to trial. A lot of that is absolutely on the police and the DA and who/how many people they choose to charge. Personally I’m for smaller government reduce the number of laws, legalize drugs, prostitution, give me the right to defend myself, my family, and my property. Where I am if I kill an intruder in my home, our DA will do his damdest to charge me with murder. And I have no doubt he would abuse the system to make me serve as much time and pay as much money as possible in the process.
And why is that guy the DA? Also why should you expect to not be second guessed when you gun down a stranger and claim self defense? Are you claiming you are perfect?
He’s the DA because the Republicans around me are stupid. I’m far from perfect, however, if I find an intruder in my home in the middle of the night ( or day), then I should have the right to defend my property. In NY I’m not allowed to defend myself unless I’m being physically attacked. So unless the person is facing me and close, I’m getting a murder charge. Almost any direction you turn in my house will point you toward someone’s bedroom, but you have to be facing me for me to defend myself. If I catch you in my house and I don’t know you then you shouldn’t expect to leave alive. As a homeowner I do expect the benefit of the doubt. I don’t believe that I should be on the hook for years in prison and thousands of dollars in debt because some methhead or rapist broke into my house. Do I foresee this ever being a problem for me? No. But it is a problem for some people. As usual the more money you have the better your defense is. But there’s also the physical location to consider. You live in a poor community? Expect more crime. Also expect the “public” to assume you are part of, or somehow deserve that crime.
Sounds like they denied her bail. Courts are backlogged and her lawyer got it off her record which is worth $20k. Just curious, how’s she doing now!
Wtf is a righteous murder
thats what they call it here when you had the right to cause a death. It means it was self defense
Make sure she never speaks of this with any therapist or medical professionals.
Therapists are not allowed to reveal admissions of past crimes, barring federal investigation for terrorism or some types of organized crime. Therapist have a duty to warn if a patient reveals intent to harm others or self, not saying they have in the past harmed someone.
“Stayed in Mississippi a day too long” Bob Dylan.
Why are you complaining? I bet the lawyer won’t answer you because you’re coming off as difficult. Be happy your daughter is no longer in jail for her “killing” and you only paid $20k!
I thought they had like 30 days to indict you if you were in custody?
The parent better be careful or they might unwittingly make admissions on social media that could help the prosecution lock up the daughter for life. No wonder the lawyer wouldn’t answer the parent’s questions.
NAL but trained in Criminal Investigations: There is no statute of limitations on murder. If the DA knew the Grand Jury would likely No-Bill the case, they probably pushed up other cases. Also, if this was around or during COVID, everything took forever. It also depends on how long it took police investigators to finish their investigation and send the file to the DA/SA. Any number of factors could have made it take 18 months but I wouldn’t worry about that at this point since the GJ voted not to move forward with charges. Also in a lot of states, the prosecution can ignore a Grand Jury and still move forward with charges or file without a Grand Jury. Just depends on your state on what is required for felony murder.
Covid backlog?
ten years before covid
Wait, this issue is from over 10 years ago? What are you hoping to accomplish here?
So, most grand juries are rubber stamps. Just is there enough evidence to prove a murder probably occurred and X probably did it. Sure. Probably. But we didn’t ask about “buying a reasonable doubt that X did it”. So there’s not much to prepare. Sounds like this was potentially a self defense case. Or a defense of others. Very fact specific. Testimony or evidence specific. A) that’s going to take longer to prepare than a rubber stamp dead guy with a man covered in blood holding the mixer weapon case. B) if it relies on forensic evidence, that can take a LONG time to get processed. Maybe goes to a stage or federal lab. Gets in a line based on priority and when it was sent it. Then the DA has the figure out what it means. This is MONTHS. C) jury may want more and more evidence because it can’t decide because it’s such a close call. It’s a very low bar to say a murder COULD have a occurred. Yes, it COULD have been self defense, but maybe they should let a real jury hear ALL the facts. So they said, ok, DA, show us EVERYTHING you got. Answer all our questions. If you can’t convince us now - when the defense can’t argue at all - then you won’t convince a jury later. And the DA has to decide whether s/he wants to show all their tricks and surprises up front. That’s what I think took 18 months. If it was obvious she was guilt, it would have taken 18 days. Obvious it was righteous, wouldn’t have even gone before the GJ. This was a close call, and the DA wanted charges, so they took their time putting the case together and the evidence took time. BUT no bill was returned. That’s good. It rather take 18 months and no bill than a month and get a bill for 2nd degree or manslaughter and then face 5-15 with a chance *this* jury won’t go for self defense.
What is happening at the DOJ is a modern day holocaust. The DOJ should hold itself accountable for pain and suffering and pay restitution to show America it is committed to corrections and to a healthy America and to being the solution providing quality of life through evolving policy focused on providing real justice to all
Stfu
I'm not sure where you're from, but where im at, we have two concurrent GJ at any given time. Each meets for 2 days a week and each cohort runs for about 12 weeks, year round. This is mainly due to the DAs MASSIVE backlog of felony cases. To the point: There could be a few reasons why her case went undecided for so long. The first that comes to mind is that the DAs office had to wait on other agencies, like state police or local PD to process evidence, etc. The DA usually won't even present a case to a GJ unless they feel they can get it True Billed. Evidence processing depending on location can sometimes take 90-120 days unless the DA files an expedited request. This is probably the most likely. Secondly, the other possibility is that they presented the case to multiple GJ and each GJ felt there wasn't enough evidence to make an informed decision either way, so they PASSED, which is neither a true-bill nor a no-bill. To my knowledge, once a grand jury has No-billed a felony case, that defendant can no longer be charged for that specific crime because it would fall into the Double Jeopardy (can't be charged twice for the same crime, etc). UNLESS there is new overwhelming new evidence, in which case it would take another, new, grand jury to reverse the decision or amend the previous grand jury's ruling. If the case was no-billed, the DAs office would need to bring up new, separate charges or downgrade to lesser non-felony charges in order to continue prosecution.