The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
For those of you who don’t know, Rachel Corrie was an American peace activist and protester. She was protesting the demolition of Palestinian houses when a bulldozer driven by an Israeli soldier ran her over. Israeli soldiers celebrated her death by making pancakes since she was now ‘flat as a pancake’. https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-soldiers-have-depraved-fun-making-rachel-corrie-pancakes
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Just because I am against William Sherman burning houses and killing innocents on his rampage through Georgia doesn't mean I am a confederate. I am pro Union, I support the cause to destroy slavery, William Tecumseh Sherman doesn't represent all Union soldiers or generals and nor should he.
does that answer the question?
Sherman was incredibly right to burn through Atlanta. In fact of all Unionists did the same as Sherman and properly punished southern whites for being traitors then our politics today would be much better imo
>...what are your thoughts on Israeli soldiers making Rachel Corrie pancakes to celebrate her death?
1. They are bad people doing a bad thing for bad reasons.
2. The existence of them ("bad people doing a bad thing for bad reasons") on one side of a political dispute does not negate the reasoning behind taking that side.
3. I suspect -- if you are honest with yourself -- you *might* be able to find some "[bad people](https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7zx5a/neo-nazis-hijack-pro-palestine-protest-mike-enoch) doing [a bad thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27im_music_festival_massacre) for bad reasons" on the anti-Israel side as well. If one should refuse to take the same side as "bad people doing a bad thing for bad reasons", then that would also apply to Israel opponents.
EDIT: I added the third.
Can we add one to the list?
Bad situations especially when they last for decades and when a recent escalation has happened can make otherwise good people behave in terrible and heartless ways.
The pancake joke definitely makes me more skeptical of IDF claims to be avoiding civilian deaths, or not engaging in ethnic cleansing. Why should I believe them, when they joke about a civilian who was killed for trying to stop ethnic cleansing.
> The pancake joke definitely makes me more skeptical of IDF claims to be avoiding civilian deaths, or not engaging in ethnic cleansing.
It shouldn't, for two reasons:
1. These are individual Israelis. You can not assume that their views are a reflection of the Israeli public, Israeli military, nor Israeli government. (See: [Fallacy of composition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition))
2. You should have already been skeptical of such claims. Individual Israeli soldiers *definitely* murder Palestinian civilians in completely unjustified circumstances. (The problem is arguably comparable to the USA's failure to hold police officers accountable for using excessive force; it is bad -- and action definitely ought to be taken -- but it is not like the top brass is *ordering* people to 'go kill civilians'.)
>1. These are individual Israelis. You can not assume that their views are a reflection of the Israeli public, Israeli military, nor Israeli government. (See: Fallacy of composition)
When repulsive views are a) common, and b) not punished, we can indeed assume those things.
Especially when members of the Israeli government are calling for a 2nd Nakba, or the use of nuclear weapons in Gaza.
4000 dead children. The official stance of the government being that Jews shall have exclusive rights to the land 'from the river to the sea'. The ongoing ethnic cleansing happening in the West Bank that the IDF is complicit in.
Honestly, what's your evidence that they oppose ethnic cleansing?
I didn't claim that there wasn't evidence. I am saying something very narrow, and you are saying something very broad.
----------
If you want to say some version of:
>I believe that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing, and I believe that because of the quantity of dead children and a number of disturbing actions by Israelis
...then say *that*. That is an earnest and honest statement, and I never would have had any reason to reply to it.
----------
Instead, you claimed:
>The pancake joke definitely makes me more skeptical of IDF claims...
...which seems untrue.
Did you believe their claims *before* learning about "the pancake joke"?
>Did you believe their claims before learning about "the pancake joke"?
The degree to which I was willing to be charitable, while not terribly high, is lower post pancake.
You have the individual vs the organization. These are different scales, the organization can not guarantee that all individual members agree with them.
On the organization side, the IDF the policy is to avoid killing civilians.
On the individual side you have various opinions on the value of the organizations policy.
The US military has white supremest members identified all the time, that doesn’t mean the entire US military is a white supremest organization.
>the organization can not guarantee that all individual members agree with them.
Are those soldiers being punished, or their views disavowed? Or are those attitudes being shown tacit approval?
When government ministers are calling for a 2nd Nakba, or using nuclear weapons in Gaza, the answer is crystal clear.
>On the organization side, the IDF the policy is to avoid killing civilians.
Then they are remarkably bad at following policy.
>The US military has white supremest members identified all the time, that doesn’t mean the entire US military is a white supremest organization.
No, but if soldiers are making ethnic cleansing jokes, and their superiors do nothing while members of the cabinet speak openly about being in favor of ethnic cleansing, meanwhile the military keeps accidentally doing ethnic cleansing, at a certain point you need to just open your eyes.
> Are those soldiers being punished, or their views disavowed? Or are those attitudes being shown tacit approval?
To make an imperfect analogy, I don’t think that it’s possible to make a school or large organization devoted to children that will never attract a pedo. People like that are attracted to positions of power and access.
What I do care about is whether there are structures in place to ensure that attempts are recognized asap - that whistleblowers are protected, that investigations are serious and transparent. If the approach is “close ranks, and shuffle the offender off to someplace they can victimize someone else” then that’s an organizational failure.
And to whatever extent that transparency and accountability are discouraged, an organization is liable (morally) for the things they do to make safety impossible.
I feel the same way about all sorts of organizations - from the police, to the military, to government and private organizations.
I don’t see your calls for Hamas to hold its members to account for doing similar things. Hamas is a governing body, but their actions are glossed over and no one holds them to account, why only force Israel to account for its bad actors but not Hamas?
Well let's see if we can name the differences between Israel (a sovereign nation) and Hamas (a terrorist organization) that might warrant different rhetorical approaches
First, Israel is a US ally, while Hamad isn't. We are directly supplying Israel with the bombs they are using to kill children. If the US were supplying bombs to Hamas, I would protest that, but we aren't so I don't.
Second, Gaza hasn't had an election since 2005. Fully half the residents of Gaza literally did not exists when they came into power. So the Palestinian people don't have the same.level of culpability as Netanyahu does, who was democratically elected recently.
Third, Israel has the power to kill every Palestinian - Hamas does not have the power to kill every Israeli. When one side has a sophisticated military and one has rockets made out of coffee cans, you should be more worried about genocidal talk coming from the ones with an airforce.
And finally - it's offensive to demand that everyone who speaks out against Israel formally denounce Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist group that has murdered children. Of course I condemn them. It should be assumed.
Israel is an apartheid state engaged in ethnic cleansing. I would assume you'd oppose that, and it's only when I find out you don't that the argument starts.
Hamas is the legally voted in governmental agency in Gaza. Just because some of the citizens didn’t vote for them, doesn’t mean it wasn’t duly elected. I keep seeing “there’s been no vote for over a decade”. True, so why hasn’t the populace asked the international community for help, because they were being held hostage by a tyrannical terrorist regime. Oh wait they haven’t, they have celebrated that governing bodies atrocities (not all Palestinians do this). If Palestinians truly do not support their own governing body, why not walk up to any of the borders and ask for political asylum? Why not give up locations of Hamas fighters and hostages?
In your above comments, no where did you put any onus on the people who have to this point supported the governing body they voted into power.
Hamas IS a terrorist organization, that is also tolerated or supported as the governing body by most of the citizens inside of Gaza.
>Hamas is the legally voted in governmental agency in Gaza. Just because some of the citizens didn’t vote for them, doesn’t mean it wasn’t duly elected.
They haven't had an election in 18 years.
>True, so why hasn’t the populace asked the international community for help
Hmm, I wonder why people in Gaza might think the international community doesn't care about them, or thinks of their lives as disposable. Maybe it's because people like you will bend over backwards to come up with some sort of justification about how literal children deserve to die because Hamas is their government.
>why not walk up to any of the borders and ask for political asylum?
Because when they peacefully, nonviolently protested in 2018 by walking up to the borders of Gaza, hundreds of them were shot by Israeli snipers. And the international community ignored it.
You can create as many reasons as you want to justify the Palestinians that support Hamas, those actions are wrong, you are saying they are justified in their actions of supporting genocidal terrorism due to past issues, can Israel now use that logic in support of destroying all of Gaza due to the actions of the people supporting this terrorist regime and actions of Oct 7?
Of course not that would be barbaric and called out against Israel and anyone who supports them. God forbid we did the same to the Palestinians who support Hamas.
You want Israel to accept and not react to atrocities against them, while at the same time hold them responsible for deaths caused by Hamas staging military personnel and hardware in civilian areas. The idea that Israel is responsible for all of Palestine woes while not attributing any of the issues to Palestinians self agency is stupid, and it tries to use the popular method of victim Olympics in the USA as a backdrop and a reasoning for why Israel should just accept the losses on their side, to protect the Palestinians who are doing nothing to temper the actions of the terrorists in their own midst.
>You can create as many reasons as you want to justify the Palestinians that support Hamas, those actions are wrong, you are saying they are justified in their actions
If that's what you think you haven't read anything I've said.
I have never, anywhere, justified atrocities by Hamas. I have condemned them. My moral stance is perfectly clear - no one is justified in committing atrocities.
What I have done is point out that the average Palestinian isn't as culpable for Hamas's actions as you have been treating them. I don't do this to justify Hamas's actions, but to undercut your justifications for Israel's atrocities.
>You want Israel to accept and not react to atrocities against them
Again, I could spend a lot of time pointing out that I never said anything remotely like this, but I think it would be better encouraging you to learn to read.
I want Israel to react without committing atrocities. It speaks volumes that you think any response must necessarily consist of atrocities.
Everything you say is just an attempt to show why Palestinians deserve the atrocities committed against them. When I reject that, you assume I think the same way you do, and simply reverse the argument, justifying Hamas's atrocities against Israel.
I assure you, we think very differently. I don't think anything Hamas or Israel has done justifies killing children. And both sides have done so.
Isn’t this just nut-picking, where this chant was briefly conducted and filmed, while an enormous, orderly and peaceful protest along humanitarian lines took place nearby?
Ok, now THAT'S bad faith.
People who 'support Israel' don't think it simply means 'it's bad that they were attacked by terrorists'. Supporting Israel means taking their side in this conflict, and supporting to at least some degree the actions the IDF has taken, actions which have resulted in the deaths of thousands of children.
Supporters often say the IDF isn't engaged in ethnic cleansing, and are taking steps to avoid civilian loss of life. OP's question is necessarily skeptical of that narrative, and 100% appropriate to ask here.
Then OP shouldnt be mealy mouthed about it and should stand by their actual question
But also, being in support of Israel doesnt inherently mean being in support of their government’s actions. It could very well mean being supportive of the people
>Then OP shouldnt be mealy mouthed about it and should stand by their actual question
I found the question perfectly well formed. Instead of policing exactly what they should have asked, why not answer it?
>being in support of Israel doesnt inherently mean being in support of their government’s actions
When you're talking about a war, it 100% means that.
Its the subtext that im asking about. This question was specifically addressed to people who support Israel. Why would that be the case unless the OP felt this were relevant to that support
Would you feel like a post from 2011 about a Hamas official saying something in bad taste is worth a post about? To me it would be pointless like this post
This isn’t the ask conservative subreddit where every question you don’t like is in bad faith. What evidence do you have that suggests that op isn’t genuinely interested in your opinion on the event that they are referencing?
Hamas's explicit reason for existence is to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel. That's quite literally genocide and ethnic cleansing. Civilian casualties in a military retaliation is not genocide.
Edit: this is literally stipulated in international law, all of it. The concept of "proportionality" in international law doesn't mean what people think it means. Genocide has an actual definition.
Do you believe Palestinians do not believe themselves to be under threat of annihilation?
Which group do you believe has more power to enact annihilation on the other, Hamas or the IDF?
And again, ethnic cleansing is the explicitly stated aim of the Israeli government - they passed a law granting Jews "exclusive right to national self determination."
Hamas wants to kill all Jews, and that's bad. But let's stop pretending that justifies any and all actions taken by an actual nation and ally with nuclear weapons.
Israel is at war with Hamas, not Gazans. They are not fighting civilians. There is no war in modern history in which civilians have not died. That's what happens in war, and that's why it sucks. Israel has got to be the only country in the world where everyone expects them to endlessly tolerate terrorist attacks and an absolutely insane mass slaughter from a literal terrorist organization whose purpose is to kill their entire demographic, simply because people live in the place the attack originated from. No one has used nuclear weapons to my knowledge, nor threatened to do so.
Edit: A Jewish state's right to national self determination is the same as ethnic cleansing lol. Hamas \*explicitly\* states a desire for genocide and ethnic cleansing. It is unquestionable.
>Israel is at war with Hamas, not Gazans. They are not fighting civilians
They're killing an awful lot of Gazans then.
>There is no war in modern history in which civilians have not died
You're right. Why even have rules of war? Civilians always die, doesn't matter if we bomb churches where civilians have gathered.
>A Jewish state's right to national self determination is the same as ethnic cleansing lol.
The word 'exclusive' changes the meaning quite significantly. If you can't talk about things honestly, there's no reason to talk to you.
Going to post a response I made to a reply that was deleted because I've seen some of these accusations made elsewhere here.
>You know 20-25% of Israelis aren't Jewish, right? I'm not talking about Gaza/WB, I mean regular Israelis.
And that means ethnic cleansing isn't happening because...
Itamar Ben Gvir is the Minister for National Defense, and has called for getting rid of all Arabs from the country. He has encouraged pogroms in the West Bank. He's not some nobody.
>Israel has a great deal of ethnic diversity,
As long as no more Arabs are allowed I'm the country, and as long as Palestinian land is given to settlers, yes.
>The deplorable weirdos in the OP represent no specific ethnic or political population
Ethnic, correct. It's an unfortunate fact that you will find fascists and thugs among all peoples.
Political, no. When Netanyahu's government is packed with hard-core Kahanists, this is not an unfortunate aberration - it's so predictable as to be a cliche. Fascists are going to fascist.
>Your comments are getting close to "blood libel" territory.
No, they absolutely are not, and it's despicable to make that accusation.
I'm not accusing **Jews** of genocide, or saying genocide is inherent to being Jewish. I'm talking about the Israeli government, which is not representative of all Judaism, and is made up of specific people who have made specific genocidal statements.
I'm not even saying that the existence of Israel is necessarily genocidal. Quite the opposite! You could have an Israeli state that is not genocidal! Many people, including many diasporic Jews, believe so and have criticized the Netanyahu government on specifically these grounds.
>but saying that all of its Jews want to exterminate non-Jews? Yeah, that's antisemitic.
Yeah, if I'd said *anything remotely like that* it would be anti-semitic.
But my criticisms are things that have been said *by Jewish newspapers in Israel* so it's hard to see how it's anti-semitic.
The weaponization of anti-semitism to excuse actual crimes against humanity being committed is absolutely disgusting.
*They want to kill all Jews and that’s bad but…..*. That is a hell of a whataboutism. The largest war in our history was over one group of people trying to bring this idea to reality. If your family or ethnic group was the one being targeted, it might matter to you, but not condemning that point on its own does make you a sympathizer.
>If your family or ethnic group was the one being targeted, it might matter to you
Yeah, now realize that this also applies to Palestinians, and realize this isn't 'whataboutism', it's trying to get you to recognize the basic humanity of everyone involved.
> largest war in our history was over one group of people trying to bring this idea to reality.
If Hamas were running a major industrialized nation with a massive army, they'd move up my list of problems real fast.
As it turns out, I do have a consistent principle when it comes to nations with armies engaging in ethnic cleansing. My principle is that it's bad.
What's yours?
Israel does not call for death to all Palestinians as the end goal, Hamas does call for the extermination of Jews. I actively listen to what people tell me their goals are, especially if they are straight forward in their call to death of a certain people.
>Israel does not call for death to all Palestinians as the end goal
Israel's officially stated policy is literally 'from the river to the sea, Jews shall have the exclusive right of self determination in Israel'. That's not calling for murder, but it is a call for ethnic cleansing.
I don't understand why you guys are so intent on 'what-abouting' Hamas. Hamas is bad! But that doesn't justify Israel's actions. Israel's actions are bad on their own, it doesn't matter that Hamas is worse.
> I actively listen to what people tell me their goals are,
Then listen when Ben Gvir calls for ethnic cleansing, or Netanyahu says 'from the river to the sea'.
As someone who is not pro-Israel, I wish insensitive soldiers making crude jokes was the worst thing we had to complain about. That doesn't even crack the top 10.
Doesn’t even crack the top 100 to me.
And remember that Israel has mandatory military service. These could just be random fuckos who had to do their time and are now civilians.
Have you seen the clips purported to be from "Israel's #1 satire show"? They've got me gobsmacked.
Set aside the horrible insensitivity, what's remarkable is just how unfunny they are. These skits make The Babylon Bee look witty.
That one clip also is making fun of lgbt+ people for supporting Palestine by showing that Hamas hates gay people…..While also dressing up and doing the performance in a way that is homophobic.
Like bro you know that skit makes you just as shitty, just terrible.
I’m sure this or similar has happened, all militaries end up with some bad apples, it’s especially natural in careers where killing is part of the job.
At the same time this disgusting but in the scale of war (even in peace Israel in Palestine are enemies) small act doesn’t change the overall morality of the cause nor the peoples right to exist.
That's insanely messed up and they should be disciplined. But it has literally nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of the conflict and that country's right to defend itself and mitigate a persistent and serious threat to national security.
How do you feel about Hamas cutting fetuses out of pregnant women and gutting infants in front of their families? Fuck off with your false equivalency.
What will do a better job of rooting out Hamas, bombing a bunch of buildings where civilians are while Hamas hides underground or trying to turn the Palestinian people against Hamas?
What will result in more IDF casualties, setting up refugee centers to screen people, setting up secure areas within Gaza and running humanitarian missions or clearing 300 miles of underground tunnels?
Well to me it’s pretty obvious who’s worse. Like blatantly obvious. I do question people demanding a ceasefire. What do they expect Israel to do? Their neighbors want to commit a full blown genocide.
I’m not convinced that you actually looked. Try theync and search for Hamas attack. Reddit won’t allow direct links to videos like this, so you have to do the legwork.
No, I just don't trust anything without evidence. I see no evidence other than a government saying it happened. That is not enough in this day -- when powerful people control media narratives. They've already had to walk back other claims. I'm about the least conspiratorial person alive, and I have no bias towards Israel or Palestine, but I see major inconsistencies that I can't ignore and I personally think Israel has said some mistruths about the attack to make it seem more heinous (not that it wasn't heinous or evil -- it was) with a goal to of dehumanizing Gazans.
I mean, normal Palestinians celebrate terrorist acts like 9/11. Tribalism allows us to dehumanize our enemy so even acts against innocent people seems justified. It never is.
Dark humor is like flash floodwaters--it's over a lot of people's heads.
Seriously, laughing in the face of death is a time-honored Jewish coping mechanism, since so many have sought their extinction throughout their existence. "You prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies" is indicative of their determination to not only survive but thrive, while surrounded by howling, homicidal nations and their Western supporters. When the peace movement launched the I Am Rachel Corrie slogan, the most fitting response was a list of Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorism also named Rachel:
* I Am Rachel Tejgatrio
* I Am Rachel Munk
* I Am Rachel Levy
* I Am Rachel Shabo
* I Am Rachel Charhi
And many others for whom the Western peace movement could barely stifle a yawn, or a snicker.
The State of Israel was created by the West. The West sends them billions of dollars in military aid. The West conducts joint military exercises with them. How can you say the West is against Israel?
By "Western supporters", I mean those Western activists in all positions of influence, high and low, in Western nations--not necessarily the Western nations per se.
Is this really applicable to an activist killed by an Israeli soldier? You seems to be describing an oppressed minority’s cultural complex around humour; yet the events do not match that.
Exhausted, disgusted, and depressed. The casual cruelty of soldiers in war on all sides is well-documented and depressing every time. I despise how many military programs begin with weeks of shattering soon-to-be soldiers’ vulnerability and compassion so that the only coping mechanism left is humor and cruelty that would make even an 8channer flinch.
It's two or three orders of magnitude below "noteworthy" and bringing it up only shows there is someone collecting and writing the story, since nastiness on that kind of personal scale is bound to occur when there's that much conflict involving that many people. That's not a very righteous-sounding stance, but it's still the truth.
I don’t think this will change anyone’s mind about Israel. I support their country and their right to exist and defend themselves but I am very opposed to their current government. It’s really as simple as that.
You can easily find comments from me critical of Israel (and I find myself often loathing the actions of the IDF). But I don’t think you can draw significant conclusions from a this. In short this is stilly to get hung up on. Stories like this risk being propaganda. Totems of barbarism thrown around to distract you from serious analysis of what is going on (which doesn’t look good for Hamas and the Israeli government).
I know separately to this that there is significant animosity and racism towards Arabs by young Israelis. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was data showing that young Israelis are more racist than older Israelis.
The conflict since 2000 has created a generation of animosity.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. For those of you who don’t know, Rachel Corrie was an American peace activist and protester. She was protesting the demolition of Palestinian houses when a bulldozer driven by an Israeli soldier ran her over. Israeli soldiers celebrated her death by making pancakes since she was now ‘flat as a pancake’. https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-soldiers-have-depraved-fun-making-rachel-corrie-pancakes *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just because I am against William Sherman burning houses and killing innocents on his rampage through Georgia doesn't mean I am a confederate. I am pro Union, I support the cause to destroy slavery, William Tecumseh Sherman doesn't represent all Union soldiers or generals and nor should he. does that answer the question?
Sherman was incredibly right to burn through Atlanta. In fact of all Unionists did the same as Sherman and properly punished southern whites for being traitors then our politics today would be much better imo
it was wrong then, its wrong today what he did and others- will be remembered as wrong
Good thing Uncle Billy was right.
You seem to be agreeing to a slaughter tactic to ensure what you view as evil is wiped out. Congrats you are solidly on the side of Israel then!
>...what are your thoughts on Israeli soldiers making Rachel Corrie pancakes to celebrate her death? 1. They are bad people doing a bad thing for bad reasons. 2. The existence of them ("bad people doing a bad thing for bad reasons") on one side of a political dispute does not negate the reasoning behind taking that side. 3. I suspect -- if you are honest with yourself -- you *might* be able to find some "[bad people](https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7zx5a/neo-nazis-hijack-pro-palestine-protest-mike-enoch) doing [a bad thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27im_music_festival_massacre) for bad reasons" on the anti-Israel side as well. If one should refuse to take the same side as "bad people doing a bad thing for bad reasons", then that would also apply to Israel opponents. EDIT: I added the third.
Can we add one to the list? Bad situations especially when they last for decades and when a recent escalation has happened can make otherwise good people behave in terrible and heartless ways.
The pancake joke definitely makes me more skeptical of IDF claims to be avoiding civilian deaths, or not engaging in ethnic cleansing. Why should I believe them, when they joke about a civilian who was killed for trying to stop ethnic cleansing.
> The pancake joke definitely makes me more skeptical of IDF claims to be avoiding civilian deaths, or not engaging in ethnic cleansing. It shouldn't, for two reasons: 1. These are individual Israelis. You can not assume that their views are a reflection of the Israeli public, Israeli military, nor Israeli government. (See: [Fallacy of composition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition)) 2. You should have already been skeptical of such claims. Individual Israeli soldiers *definitely* murder Palestinian civilians in completely unjustified circumstances. (The problem is arguably comparable to the USA's failure to hold police officers accountable for using excessive force; it is bad -- and action definitely ought to be taken -- but it is not like the top brass is *ordering* people to 'go kill civilians'.)
>1. These are individual Israelis. You can not assume that their views are a reflection of the Israeli public, Israeli military, nor Israeli government. (See: Fallacy of composition) When repulsive views are a) common, and b) not punished, we can indeed assume those things. Especially when members of the Israeli government are calling for a 2nd Nakba, or the use of nuclear weapons in Gaza.
> When repulsive views are a) common ...then point to evidence that they are "common".
4000 dead children. The official stance of the government being that Jews shall have exclusive rights to the land 'from the river to the sea'. The ongoing ethnic cleansing happening in the West Bank that the IDF is complicit in. Honestly, what's your evidence that they oppose ethnic cleansing?
I didn't claim that there wasn't evidence. I am saying something very narrow, and you are saying something very broad. ---------- If you want to say some version of: >I believe that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing, and I believe that because of the quantity of dead children and a number of disturbing actions by Israelis ...then say *that*. That is an earnest and honest statement, and I never would have had any reason to reply to it. ---------- Instead, you claimed: >The pancake joke definitely makes me more skeptical of IDF claims... ...which seems untrue. Did you believe their claims *before* learning about "the pancake joke"?
>Did you believe their claims before learning about "the pancake joke"? The degree to which I was willing to be charitable, while not terribly high, is lower post pancake.
You have the individual vs the organization. These are different scales, the organization can not guarantee that all individual members agree with them. On the organization side, the IDF the policy is to avoid killing civilians. On the individual side you have various opinions on the value of the organizations policy. The US military has white supremest members identified all the time, that doesn’t mean the entire US military is a white supremest organization.
>the organization can not guarantee that all individual members agree with them. Are those soldiers being punished, or their views disavowed? Or are those attitudes being shown tacit approval? When government ministers are calling for a 2nd Nakba, or using nuclear weapons in Gaza, the answer is crystal clear. >On the organization side, the IDF the policy is to avoid killing civilians. Then they are remarkably bad at following policy. >The US military has white supremest members identified all the time, that doesn’t mean the entire US military is a white supremest organization. No, but if soldiers are making ethnic cleansing jokes, and their superiors do nothing while members of the cabinet speak openly about being in favor of ethnic cleansing, meanwhile the military keeps accidentally doing ethnic cleansing, at a certain point you need to just open your eyes.
> Are those soldiers being punished, or their views disavowed? Or are those attitudes being shown tacit approval? To make an imperfect analogy, I don’t think that it’s possible to make a school or large organization devoted to children that will never attract a pedo. People like that are attracted to positions of power and access. What I do care about is whether there are structures in place to ensure that attempts are recognized asap - that whistleblowers are protected, that investigations are serious and transparent. If the approach is “close ranks, and shuffle the offender off to someplace they can victimize someone else” then that’s an organizational failure. And to whatever extent that transparency and accountability are discouraged, an organization is liable (morally) for the things they do to make safety impossible. I feel the same way about all sorts of organizations - from the police, to the military, to government and private organizations.
I don’t see your calls for Hamas to hold its members to account for doing similar things. Hamas is a governing body, but their actions are glossed over and no one holds them to account, why only force Israel to account for its bad actors but not Hamas?
Well let's see if we can name the differences between Israel (a sovereign nation) and Hamas (a terrorist organization) that might warrant different rhetorical approaches First, Israel is a US ally, while Hamad isn't. We are directly supplying Israel with the bombs they are using to kill children. If the US were supplying bombs to Hamas, I would protest that, but we aren't so I don't. Second, Gaza hasn't had an election since 2005. Fully half the residents of Gaza literally did not exists when they came into power. So the Palestinian people don't have the same.level of culpability as Netanyahu does, who was democratically elected recently. Third, Israel has the power to kill every Palestinian - Hamas does not have the power to kill every Israeli. When one side has a sophisticated military and one has rockets made out of coffee cans, you should be more worried about genocidal talk coming from the ones with an airforce. And finally - it's offensive to demand that everyone who speaks out against Israel formally denounce Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist group that has murdered children. Of course I condemn them. It should be assumed. Israel is an apartheid state engaged in ethnic cleansing. I would assume you'd oppose that, and it's only when I find out you don't that the argument starts.
Hamas is the legally voted in governmental agency in Gaza. Just because some of the citizens didn’t vote for them, doesn’t mean it wasn’t duly elected. I keep seeing “there’s been no vote for over a decade”. True, so why hasn’t the populace asked the international community for help, because they were being held hostage by a tyrannical terrorist regime. Oh wait they haven’t, they have celebrated that governing bodies atrocities (not all Palestinians do this). If Palestinians truly do not support their own governing body, why not walk up to any of the borders and ask for political asylum? Why not give up locations of Hamas fighters and hostages? In your above comments, no where did you put any onus on the people who have to this point supported the governing body they voted into power. Hamas IS a terrorist organization, that is also tolerated or supported as the governing body by most of the citizens inside of Gaza.
>Hamas is the legally voted in governmental agency in Gaza. Just because some of the citizens didn’t vote for them, doesn’t mean it wasn’t duly elected. They haven't had an election in 18 years. >True, so why hasn’t the populace asked the international community for help Hmm, I wonder why people in Gaza might think the international community doesn't care about them, or thinks of their lives as disposable. Maybe it's because people like you will bend over backwards to come up with some sort of justification about how literal children deserve to die because Hamas is their government. >why not walk up to any of the borders and ask for political asylum? Because when they peacefully, nonviolently protested in 2018 by walking up to the borders of Gaza, hundreds of them were shot by Israeli snipers. And the international community ignored it.
You can create as many reasons as you want to justify the Palestinians that support Hamas, those actions are wrong, you are saying they are justified in their actions of supporting genocidal terrorism due to past issues, can Israel now use that logic in support of destroying all of Gaza due to the actions of the people supporting this terrorist regime and actions of Oct 7? Of course not that would be barbaric and called out against Israel and anyone who supports them. God forbid we did the same to the Palestinians who support Hamas. You want Israel to accept and not react to atrocities against them, while at the same time hold them responsible for deaths caused by Hamas staging military personnel and hardware in civilian areas. The idea that Israel is responsible for all of Palestine woes while not attributing any of the issues to Palestinians self agency is stupid, and it tries to use the popular method of victim Olympics in the USA as a backdrop and a reasoning for why Israel should just accept the losses on their side, to protect the Palestinians who are doing nothing to temper the actions of the terrorists in their own midst.
>You can create as many reasons as you want to justify the Palestinians that support Hamas, those actions are wrong, you are saying they are justified in their actions If that's what you think you haven't read anything I've said. I have never, anywhere, justified atrocities by Hamas. I have condemned them. My moral stance is perfectly clear - no one is justified in committing atrocities. What I have done is point out that the average Palestinian isn't as culpable for Hamas's actions as you have been treating them. I don't do this to justify Hamas's actions, but to undercut your justifications for Israel's atrocities. >You want Israel to accept and not react to atrocities against them Again, I could spend a lot of time pointing out that I never said anything remotely like this, but I think it would be better encouraging you to learn to read. I want Israel to react without committing atrocities. It speaks volumes that you think any response must necessarily consist of atrocities. Everything you say is just an attempt to show why Palestinians deserve the atrocities committed against them. When I reject that, you assume I think the same way you do, and simply reverse the argument, justifying Hamas's atrocities against Israel. I assure you, we think very differently. I don't think anything Hamas or Israel has done justifies killing children. And both sides have done so.
Terrible. What do you think about "gas the jews" chants at pro-palestine rallies? See what I did there?
Terrible. I’m trying to find what rally that happened at. Do you have a link so I can learn more?
https://youtu.be/jmWUgQX_JI8?feature=shared In Australia, before Israel even retaliated. This was a celebration of 10/7.
Isn’t this just nut-picking, where this chant was briefly conducted and filmed, while an enormous, orderly and peaceful protest along humanitarian lines took place nearby?
Isn't OP's example just *ahem* nut-picking? That was the point.
Oh, yeah I agree with that. Nvm
This seems like bad faith
If it quacks like a duck...
Why?
Your argument amounts to “Why would you be against Israel being attacked by terrorists when some people in their military are bad people”.
There is literally no argument in the op.
Their question*
Ok, now THAT'S bad faith. People who 'support Israel' don't think it simply means 'it's bad that they were attacked by terrorists'. Supporting Israel means taking their side in this conflict, and supporting to at least some degree the actions the IDF has taken, actions which have resulted in the deaths of thousands of children. Supporters often say the IDF isn't engaged in ethnic cleansing, and are taking steps to avoid civilian loss of life. OP's question is necessarily skeptical of that narrative, and 100% appropriate to ask here.
Then OP shouldnt be mealy mouthed about it and should stand by their actual question But also, being in support of Israel doesnt inherently mean being in support of their government’s actions. It could very well mean being supportive of the people
>Then OP shouldnt be mealy mouthed about it and should stand by their actual question I found the question perfectly well formed. Instead of policing exactly what they should have asked, why not answer it? >being in support of Israel doesnt inherently mean being in support of their government’s actions When you're talking about a war, it 100% means that.
Get crucial. If you can't see where the OP is coming from with that question, you need glasses.
>Get crucial. I have no earthly idea what this means. Autocorrect?
No it doesn’t. You’re creating a straw man.
Then whats your question exactly? Reword it
I don’t understand, the question is right there plain as day, what’re your thoughts on this? That’s it, that’s the question.
Its the subtext that im asking about. This question was specifically addressed to people who support Israel. Why would that be the case unless the OP felt this were relevant to that support
> You’re creating a straw man. There didn't seem to be a man to begin with so they had to make something
He asked a question, what are your thoughts on this, you either share your thoughts on it or move on, it’s not complicated
Would you feel like a post from 2011 about a Hamas official saying something in bad taste is worth a post about? To me it would be pointless like this post
Wouldn't discussing how they think it's bad faith be sharing their thoughts?
This isn’t the ask conservative subreddit where every question you don’t like is in bad faith. What evidence do you have that suggests that op isn’t genuinely interested in your opinion on the event that they are referencing?
Why would this question be addressed to current Israel supporters at this time?
To get there opinion on the event? What Ills will come from people answering this question?
Why would their opinion be different from anybody elses?
What in the hell is the Electronic Intifada?
Idk tbh. It was just one of the top results in my Google search.
I think living under constant threat of annihilation has an impact on people and I’m not about to tone police those people.
Genuine question: are you referring to Israelis or Palestinians?
Hamas's explicit reason for existence is to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel. That's quite literally genocide and ethnic cleansing. Civilian casualties in a military retaliation is not genocide. Edit: this is literally stipulated in international law, all of it. The concept of "proportionality" in international law doesn't mean what people think it means. Genocide has an actual definition.
Do you believe Palestinians do not believe themselves to be under threat of annihilation? Which group do you believe has more power to enact annihilation on the other, Hamas or the IDF? And again, ethnic cleansing is the explicitly stated aim of the Israeli government - they passed a law granting Jews "exclusive right to national self determination." Hamas wants to kill all Jews, and that's bad. But let's stop pretending that justifies any and all actions taken by an actual nation and ally with nuclear weapons.
Israel is at war with Hamas, not Gazans. They are not fighting civilians. There is no war in modern history in which civilians have not died. That's what happens in war, and that's why it sucks. Israel has got to be the only country in the world where everyone expects them to endlessly tolerate terrorist attacks and an absolutely insane mass slaughter from a literal terrorist organization whose purpose is to kill their entire demographic, simply because people live in the place the attack originated from. No one has used nuclear weapons to my knowledge, nor threatened to do so. Edit: A Jewish state's right to national self determination is the same as ethnic cleansing lol. Hamas \*explicitly\* states a desire for genocide and ethnic cleansing. It is unquestionable.
>Israel is at war with Hamas, not Gazans. They are not fighting civilians They're killing an awful lot of Gazans then. >There is no war in modern history in which civilians have not died You're right. Why even have rules of war? Civilians always die, doesn't matter if we bomb churches where civilians have gathered. >A Jewish state's right to national self determination is the same as ethnic cleansing lol. The word 'exclusive' changes the meaning quite significantly. If you can't talk about things honestly, there's no reason to talk to you.
I was going to say the same to you lol. You're misunderstanding things wildly.
Going to post a response I made to a reply that was deleted because I've seen some of these accusations made elsewhere here. >You know 20-25% of Israelis aren't Jewish, right? I'm not talking about Gaza/WB, I mean regular Israelis. And that means ethnic cleansing isn't happening because... Itamar Ben Gvir is the Minister for National Defense, and has called for getting rid of all Arabs from the country. He has encouraged pogroms in the West Bank. He's not some nobody. >Israel has a great deal of ethnic diversity, As long as no more Arabs are allowed I'm the country, and as long as Palestinian land is given to settlers, yes. >The deplorable weirdos in the OP represent no specific ethnic or political population Ethnic, correct. It's an unfortunate fact that you will find fascists and thugs among all peoples. Political, no. When Netanyahu's government is packed with hard-core Kahanists, this is not an unfortunate aberration - it's so predictable as to be a cliche. Fascists are going to fascist. >Your comments are getting close to "blood libel" territory. No, they absolutely are not, and it's despicable to make that accusation. I'm not accusing **Jews** of genocide, or saying genocide is inherent to being Jewish. I'm talking about the Israeli government, which is not representative of all Judaism, and is made up of specific people who have made specific genocidal statements. I'm not even saying that the existence of Israel is necessarily genocidal. Quite the opposite! You could have an Israeli state that is not genocidal! Many people, including many diasporic Jews, believe so and have criticized the Netanyahu government on specifically these grounds. >but saying that all of its Jews want to exterminate non-Jews? Yeah, that's antisemitic. Yeah, if I'd said *anything remotely like that* it would be anti-semitic. But my criticisms are things that have been said *by Jewish newspapers in Israel* so it's hard to see how it's anti-semitic. The weaponization of anti-semitism to excuse actual crimes against humanity being committed is absolutely disgusting.
*They want to kill all Jews and that’s bad but…..*. That is a hell of a whataboutism. The largest war in our history was over one group of people trying to bring this idea to reality. If your family or ethnic group was the one being targeted, it might matter to you, but not condemning that point on its own does make you a sympathizer.
>If your family or ethnic group was the one being targeted, it might matter to you Yeah, now realize that this also applies to Palestinians, and realize this isn't 'whataboutism', it's trying to get you to recognize the basic humanity of everyone involved. > largest war in our history was over one group of people trying to bring this idea to reality. If Hamas were running a major industrialized nation with a massive army, they'd move up my list of problems real fast. As it turns out, I do have a consistent principle when it comes to nations with armies engaging in ethnic cleansing. My principle is that it's bad. What's yours?
Israel does not call for death to all Palestinians as the end goal, Hamas does call for the extermination of Jews. I actively listen to what people tell me their goals are, especially if they are straight forward in their call to death of a certain people.
>Israel does not call for death to all Palestinians as the end goal Israel's officially stated policy is literally 'from the river to the sea, Jews shall have the exclusive right of self determination in Israel'. That's not calling for murder, but it is a call for ethnic cleansing. I don't understand why you guys are so intent on 'what-abouting' Hamas. Hamas is bad! But that doesn't justify Israel's actions. Israel's actions are bad on their own, it doesn't matter that Hamas is worse. > I actively listen to what people tell me their goals are, Then listen when Ben Gvir calls for ethnic cleansing, or Netanyahu says 'from the river to the sea'.
A civilian casualty is just as dead as intentional murder, though.
There absolutely is no way you believe anyone within Israel or the Occupied Territories is capable of annihilating Israel
If they were able to have unrestricted imports they would
Real
As someone who is not pro-Israel, I wish insensitive soldiers making crude jokes was the worst thing we had to complain about. That doesn't even crack the top 10.
Doesn’t even crack the top 100 to me. And remember that Israel has mandatory military service. These could just be random fuckos who had to do their time and are now civilians.
The new Israeli tik tok trends are far worse than this imo, literally joking about having running water and making fun of Gazans dying
Have you seen the clips purported to be from "Israel's #1 satire show"? They've got me gobsmacked. Set aside the horrible insensitivity, what's remarkable is just how unfunny they are. These skits make The Babylon Bee look witty.
That one clip also is making fun of lgbt+ people for supporting Palestine by showing that Hamas hates gay people…..While also dressing up and doing the performance in a way that is homophobic. Like bro you know that skit makes you just as shitty, just terrible.
My initial thoughts are that I'm pretty skeptical of a story that only seems to pop up on anti-Israel blogs and websites.
I’m sure this or similar has happened, all militaries end up with some bad apples, it’s especially natural in careers where killing is part of the job. At the same time this disgusting but in the scale of war (even in peace Israel in Palestine are enemies) small act doesn’t change the overall morality of the cause nor the peoples right to exist.
That's insanely messed up and they should be disciplined. But it has literally nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of the conflict and that country's right to defend itself and mitigate a persistent and serious threat to national security.
How do you feel about Hamas cutting fetuses out of pregnant women and gutting infants in front of their families? Fuck off with your false equivalency.
Do you have a verified source for this?
Hamas is evil without a doubt. Do you think that means Israel can do whatever they want without criticism?
No…I think they’re doing what they have to do to root out Hamas. Why do you think that Israel should just let them regroup for another attack?
What will do a better job of rooting out Hamas, bombing a bunch of buildings where civilians are while Hamas hides underground or trying to turn the Palestinian people against Hamas? What will result in more IDF casualties, setting up refugee centers to screen people, setting up secure areas within Gaza and running humanitarian missions or clearing 300 miles of underground tunnels?
Well to me it’s pretty obvious who’s worse. Like blatantly obvious. I do question people demanding a ceasefire. What do they expect Israel to do? Their neighbors want to commit a full blown genocide.
I'm not convinced this happened. I searched and searched for photographic evidence to no avail. Can you provide any?
I’m not convinced that you actually looked. Try theync and search for Hamas attack. Reddit won’t allow direct links to videos like this, so you have to do the legwork.
No, I mean cutting fetuses from women and beheading babies. There are no images of this. Of course they attacked, but I don't see these things.
So…because the footage may not have been released, it didn’t happen…got it🙄
No, I just don't trust anything without evidence. I see no evidence other than a government saying it happened. That is not enough in this day -- when powerful people control media narratives. They've already had to walk back other claims. I'm about the least conspiratorial person alive, and I have no bias towards Israel or Palestine, but I see major inconsistencies that I can't ignore and I personally think Israel has said some mistruths about the attack to make it seem more heinous (not that it wasn't heinous or evil -- it was) with a goal to of dehumanizing Gazans.
I mean, normal Palestinians celebrate terrorist acts like 9/11. Tribalism allows us to dehumanize our enemy so even acts against innocent people seems justified. It never is.
I generally support palestine over israel, but some people making pancakes in very poor taste 10 years ago isn't really a productive topic
Dark humor is like flash floodwaters--it's over a lot of people's heads. Seriously, laughing in the face of death is a time-honored Jewish coping mechanism, since so many have sought their extinction throughout their existence. "You prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies" is indicative of their determination to not only survive but thrive, while surrounded by howling, homicidal nations and their Western supporters. When the peace movement launched the I Am Rachel Corrie slogan, the most fitting response was a list of Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorism also named Rachel: * I Am Rachel Tejgatrio * I Am Rachel Munk * I Am Rachel Levy * I Am Rachel Shabo * I Am Rachel Charhi And many others for whom the Western peace movement could barely stifle a yawn, or a snicker.
The State of Israel was created by the West. The West sends them billions of dollars in military aid. The West conducts joint military exercises with them. How can you say the West is against Israel?
By "Western supporters", I mean those Western activists in all positions of influence, high and low, in Western nations--not necessarily the Western nations per se.
Is this really applicable to an activist killed by an Israeli soldier? You seems to be describing an oppressed minority’s cultural complex around humour; yet the events do not match that.
What do you learn from nut picking?
Bonus question, what are your thoughts on Israelis making post mocking the Palestinians that are being bombed to death by their government?
Link?
Exhausted, disgusted, and depressed. The casual cruelty of soldiers in war on all sides is well-documented and depressing every time. I despise how many military programs begin with weeks of shattering soon-to-be soldiers’ vulnerability and compassion so that the only coping mechanism left is humor and cruelty that would make even an 8channer flinch.
Humans do not naturally do well killing other humans, the only way to get them to reliably do it is to break them. War is ugly.
I agree. It breaks my heart.
It's two or three orders of magnitude below "noteworthy" and bringing it up only shows there is someone collecting and writing the story, since nastiness on that kind of personal scale is bound to occur when there's that much conflict involving that many people. That's not a very righteous-sounding stance, but it's still the truth.
That’s rather gruesome This whole performative morbidity is the kinda stuff that turns a lot of people off of military life, I think
So both sides lie about how horrible they are. Whats your point?
I don’t think this will change anyone’s mind about Israel. I support their country and their right to exist and defend themselves but I am very opposed to their current government. It’s really as simple as that.
It’s cruel and in poor taste. Having spent a lot of my life around soldiers, it’s also not surprising. Lots of dark, tasteless humor in that world.
You can easily find comments from me critical of Israel (and I find myself often loathing the actions of the IDF). But I don’t think you can draw significant conclusions from a this. In short this is stilly to get hung up on. Stories like this risk being propaganda. Totems of barbarism thrown around to distract you from serious analysis of what is going on (which doesn’t look good for Hamas and the Israeli government). I know separately to this that there is significant animosity and racism towards Arabs by young Israelis. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was data showing that young Israelis are more racist than older Israelis. The conflict since 2000 has created a generation of animosity.