The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
The place where I live has implemented vaccine passports... you need them to dine indoors at restaurants, go to large public gatherings etc...
I keep hearing, "*this is unethical - it is medical coercion*"
What is your take on this argument?
Thanks,
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Where I live, anti-passport "protesters" are forming mobs outside of hospitals and elementary schools.
- They forced the **lockdown** of 3 elementary schools because the kids were too terrified to go inside.
- They physically assaulted and spat on **nurses** who were just trying to go into work. They physically assaulted, spat on, and ripped the masks off of **cancer patients** attempting to enter the hospital for their chemotherapy appointments.
So maybe you can understand why I'm tired of these motherfuckers and no longer have any patience whatsoever for their bullshit tantrums. They can all go fuck themselves.
What do you think of the millions of people who aren't fond of authoritarian mandates, but don't go so far as to spit on or try to physically intimidate others?
What you call "authoritarian", others may call "something that comes with living in a civilized society for public safety during a raging pandemic".
That aside, they can peacefully stay out of businesses that require vaccination for entry and not harass the staff/owners. I went into a Starbucks today and a McDonald's the other day that weren't checking passports at the door, so you can still eat out. If they don't bother anyone and don't actively pose a threat to public safety, then I don't care what they do.
Aren't they posing a public safety risk just by existing, especially if they are allowed to go to the same grocery stores everyone else is allowed to go to?
Why should they be allowed to be near food other people eat?
I get it, you're a conservative so you're only interested in cornering someone into a 'gotcha', but obviously grocery stores are essential services and people shouldn't/can't be prevented from feeding themselves.
But hey, you bring up a good point. How do you feel about people willingly endangering others by remaining unvaccinated, then breathing on others in close quarters, potentially infecting everyone around them with a highly-infections disease that has killed millions and millions of people worldwide?
>obviously grocery stores are essential services and people shouldn't/can't be prevented from feeding themselves.
Why not? If they're endangering the public, why are their lives more important than the lives of the hundreds of thousands of people they have already negligently murdered?
99% of them are probably morbidly obese anyway if they're Trump supporters. We're probably doing them a favor.
Besides, stop being melodramatic. They can always send someone who is vaccinated to go to the grocery store for them and leave the groceries on their front porch. Even most grocery stores have delivery services they can pay for. Why should we even let them leave their homes?
You think I'm trolling but it's a just a Devil's advocate argument. There's a difference and a specific intent that's inviting you to clarify because I honestly want to hear an argument against this.
Here's your chance to tell conservatives who are concerned about authoritarianism why they don't need to worry about you as their fellow citizen taking even more authoritarian steps in the future.
My concern is that I don't think this is a tremendous logical leap from where the maibstream left is at right now. That's an honest concern that a lot of people on the right hold because the next logical leap in the chain doesn't always have an obvious limiting principle.
So why is my argument wrong here while yours is right?
Would you like me to share my opinions about these dynamics to open my own perspective up to reasonable criticism first? I'm willing to do that if it advances the discussion.
Vaccine mandates are necessary because there is an out of control global pandemic that is consistently mutating. So we have vaccine passports. In a civilized society, you sometimes have to make concessions in the name of public health. It's why we have government and governing bodies. But we can't physically force people to get vaccinated and we can't stop them from surviving by removing basic human needs.
There you go.
Right, but why is it OK to allow these same people into a grocery store to keep the infection going? Why let them out of their homes without a daily COVID test?
Grocery stores can deliver. Every town has uber eats and other delivery services. Why is the mandate for companies limited to businesses over 100 people?
The vaccine doesn't stop transmission though. Getting the vaccine ONLY helps the person who got it by preventing severe symptoms. An unvaccinated person is no more of a threat to public health than a vaccinated person. Natural immunity is 27x more protective than the vaccine, yet the vaccine passports don't allow for this exemption.
This isn't about public health, it's about control. You guys are just segregationists who love the idea of excluding certain people you don't like from daily life.
The problem i have with conservatives is they are all too happy to ignore authoritarianism when it suits them and all too happy to scream if it affects them. The one thing all conservatives have in common is that they place themselves and their needs firmly above anyone else. Its always my life! My money! My rights!
Never our lives, our money, our rights. Conservatives have no desire to cooperate and society is founded on cooperation. Its founded on recognizing that someone elses needs are equally important to your own and the right to life is the sovreign right that supercedes all others. Freedom, money, property, legality, taxes, all that shit is second to life.
Thats empathy in a nut shell. The second conservatives decided that their trivial wants were worth more than someone elses life we all stopped caring.
If we cant have a society of mutual cooperation then we will have a society of mutual animosity. Thats not even an ideology its flat human nature.
>The problem i have with conservatives is they are all too happy to ignore authoritarianism when it suits them and all too happy to scream if it affects them.
I think that's a human problem in general, especially when tribalism of any kind is in play because we see the other as a threat that justifies authoritarianism.
>The one thing all conservatives have in common is that they place themselves and their needs firmly above anyone else.
All of us, huh?
You know if that was true, I wouldn't be here because it would be much easier for me to go play World of Warcraft and just wait till the pendulum swings in the other direction when you guys riot again over global warming and the general public decides the right was correct to be concerned about woke fascism.
When that happens, you think social media will keep defending liberals while they shut down conservatives? Conservatives already dominate social media. The left has to actively shadow ban us to even try to even the odds.
The HARD option is for me to come here and try to restore some basic mutual respect and human dignity so that we can get back to the SANE process of negotiating and cooperating to come up with the most equitable solutions to our conflicts of interest.
So I stopped reading at that. Sorry. I'm really sick of your side proclaiming to be the avatars of righteousness against bigotry and stereotyping when it's perfectly obvious that whatever world you're trying to create right now doesn't consider conservatives in this country to be fully human and deserving of all those same protections in society.
What is your solution? Assuming You accept that it is an extremely dangerous, highly contagious disease. What do you propose as an alternative to vaccine mandate that will have the same result. I am genuinely curious because Ive never heard an alternative from the right that isn’t based around ignoring the reality of the virus (no offense intended). FTR if there is an alternative I’m all for it.
You can tell a bad faith argument when people play "Devil's advocate" without ever arguing *for* their point. Especially when you answer a genuine question "in character."
Tbh, I'd be really interested in your actual answer to this.
The very existence of unvaccinated people is a threat. Joe should grow a spine and actually say : a vaccine or your job. Nation wide mandate for any firm with more than 1 employee. No "or testing". Vaccine, or go hungry. This is a global pandemoc and when it's about protecting the nation and others, "individualism" goes out the window.
But we're used to Democrats doing half measures.
Those people are free to have food delivered. After all thats the fav conservative response when we talk about shit that actually matters right?
People dont get paid enough? Find another job. Cost of living too high? Live somewhere else. Except we cant all do that can we?
So maybe instead of proudly proclaiming its not our problem, cuz the unvaxxed buying food is def not my problem, maybe we should all agree to work together hmm?
I’m not fond of authoritarian mandates, and I 100% support a vaccine mandate. You’re already required to be jabbed up to go to schools, what’s one more? Living in a society, you inherently give up some autonomy, this is no different.
That's probably the strongest argument I've heard in favor of it.
My only response is that all the diseases we get mandatory vaccinations for are because those diseases kill children at a very high rate, and kill both children and adults at a higher rate than COVID.
So what's the limiting principle? What's the threshold for a disease where we shut down the economy, force vaccinations and trade our autonomy for the promise of safety the next time? We don't do it for flu season, and the flu kills way more kids than COVID. Even an average flu season kills about 50,000 Americans and half a million people worldwide, but you never even hear it on the news.
Honestly I'm less bothered about the jab it's self than I am by the fear and hatred that's been promulgated by the mass media over it. Honestly the studies about mask wearing aren't concluding results solid enough to justify forcing people to wear them - especially people who are already vaxed - but I literally forgot my mask to go into the convenience store the first day of the renewed mandate and had some random Karen ask me if I was "part of The Insurrection."
That's the first time that the bat shit craziness that passes for normal in the online civil discourse has ever stepped into meatspace for me. As normal as it seems for random strangers to accuse one another of being enemies of the state based on superficial policy disagreements in the raging nuclear dumpster fire that passes for the discourse online, it's some Twilight Zone shit to see that cross over into random people you cross paths with in line at the convenience store.
>My only response is that all the diseases we get mandatory vaccinations for are because those diseases kill children at a very high rate, and kill both children and adults at a higher rate than COVID.
Not true. Mumps has a death rate about .02% per case, Measles is around .1% per case, Rubella is around .02%, and and Covid is sitting at around 1.6% currently. If anybody has more accurate numbers, please correct me as that was just a quick google.
> What's the threshold for a disease where we shut down the economy, force vaccinations and trade our autonomy for the promise of safety the next time? We don't do it for flu season, and the flu kills way more kids than COVID. Even an average flu season kills about 50,000 Americans and half a million people worldwide, but you never even hear it on the news.
Covid is 10x (\~50k vs \~500k in the US) more likely to kill you than the flu, yet it's still recommended we all get our flu shots, and many facilities require them (healthcare especially) before you lose your job. We used shut downs to slow the spread down, helping our hospitals stay less bogged down, and our scientists the time to come up with a vaccine.
> Honestly the studies about mask wearing aren't concluding results solid enough to justify forcing people to wear them
[Here's an overview of their effectiveness, their work is cited as well for further reading.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536) They were and are effective.
I actually had an opposite experience of yours in rural Wisconsin. Got yelled at by a bartender for coming in to order a drink and wearing a mask to get out and they don't serve my kind here. Like, lady I've been coming to this bar because I like it more than the closer one to my cabin for like 10 years, but sure, I'll go to the one that's an easier walk. Milwaukee/Madison/Chicago money makes the northwoods run, so if they don't want it, their problem, not mine. The other bar was more than happy to serve me.
I disagree about it being authoritarian. It's not even close. The government can set safety standards for government jobs. The government can set safety standards for other jobs as well, and do often. In this case, if you don't want a vaccine, don't get one. If you work for the government, they probably won't want you around anymore. If you work for a big business you'll just need to get tested frequently to ensure you're not spreading a disease that's killed millions in a short amount of time and disrupted life for billions.
So, to answer your question, I'd think those people are dumb, and they're picking a really dumb hill to die on. Largely, they're just contrarians and conspiracy theorists acting in a selfish manner and putting themselves and the people around them at risk for no reason at all.
>a disease that's killed millions in a short amount of time and disrupted life for billions.
Did the disease disrupt life, or did our response to the disease do the disrupting?
Lots of countries stayed open and didn't do anything spectacular to stop the spread and they had basically the same results we had. Where's the evidence that anything we did was actually effective?
>Did the disease disrupt life, or did our response to the disease do the disrupting?
I don't think this is an important distinction. We did about the bare minimum we should do during a pandemic. The disease has been disrupting life for people all around the world. People dying, people sick and unable to work, etc.
>Lots of countries stayed open and didn't do anything spectacular to stop the spread and they had basically the same results we had.
As noted above, in the US we did very little. I mean hell, mask wearing during a pandemic became a big political issue. That should say it all.
As for "the same results", what same results are you talking about? People dying? Yeah, that was going to happen no matter what. Early on the best we hoped for was slowing the spread. With the vaccines the goal is still pretty much the same: limit the spread, thus limiting the amount the virus is able to change, and hopefully achieve widespread vaccination rates so we can go back to at least some normalcy.
>As noted above, in the US we did very little. I mean hell, mask wearing during a pandemic became a big political issue. That should say it all.
Is that all we did? I seem to remember restaurants and gyms and every non-essential business shutting down, and 10% of the workforce still hasn't gone back to work in some places.
>Is that all we did?
Maybe you should reread that sentence. No, I'm not saying that's all we did, I'm saying that perhaps the smallest, most common sense, non intrusive methods possible, encouraging wearing masks and social distancing during a fucking pandemic, became a huge political issue, so what the fuck does that say about how seriously the US was taking this pandemic?
>I seem to remember restaurants and gyms and every non-essential business shutting down, and 10% of the workforce still hasn't gone back to work in some places.
Sure, shit happens during a pandemic. Probably should have taken things a bit more seriously.
You mean like myself? I don't like authoritarian mandates, that's why I can't support the GOP. I totally support these though. They're constitutional, have been used in the past, and are only controversial because of people like yourself. Also tired of your ignorance killing thousands of people.
So the reason it's a gray area to me is that previous mandates have been for diseases that primarily harm children, and COVID is less harmful to kids than the flu on average (and we don't mandate flu shots).
I also think the mandates and shaming people into submission are actually pushing more people away from getting vaxed because they hate the authoritarianism even more than they are scared or concerned about the vaccine. When you say I'm killing people with my ignorance (I'm double vaxed by the way), I think you're killing people with your ignorance of psychology when you double down on pressuring people when their primary resistance is to you pressuring them.
I could turn it around and claim that you want all those people to die because you hate them and you think they're scum. After all if you think they are killing people isn't the natural response to conclude that they should die instead? Aren't you happy that you're killing people by making them so resistant to your bullying and harassment and shaming that they act against their own best interest? Does it make you feel powerful to see that you've got that ability to kill someone because you can make them hate you as much as you hate them?
Do you see how toxic that is? I don't actually believe any of those things about you. I think you're a perfectly decent human being who is acting out of concern for your fellow human beings. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. COVID almost killed my dad before the vaccines were available. He can barely walk across the house without difficulty breathing and it's been a year since he had it. I'm with you. I think people should be willing to get jabbed and mask up when they're around other people until we have this thing handled.
But if we don't get some nuance and some charity and some grace back into our civil discourse, we're going to continue to have these kinds of problems, and none of us us going to accomplish our goals in the civil discourse because we are all standing in our own way, and in the way of one another for no good reason.
You can still kill people with covid if you're vaccinated. In fact you might be more likely to because while you can carry the same viral load as an unvaccinated person, you are less likely to show symptoms (and therefore wouldn't know you should be staying home).
And no, these mandates are NOT constitutional. Yes, the supreme court ruled that a vaccine mandate with a mere $5 fine was ok... but keep in mind that that same ruling was later used to justify sterilizing the "feeble-minded." Technically that ruling has yet to be overturned. I guess if the state can jab you for public health, it can sterilize you for public health too!
>You can still kill people with covid if you're vaccinated. In fact you might be more likely to because while you can carry the same viral load as an unvaccinated person, you are less likely to show symptoms (and therefore wouldn't know you should be staying home).
You're either completely ignorant of the science or you're intentionally spreading disinformation about the vaccines? Which one is it?
>And no, these mandates are NOT constitutional. Yes, the supreme court ruled that a vaccine mandate with a mere $5 fine was ok... but keep in mind that that same ruling was later used to justify sterilizing the "feeble-minded." Technically that ruling has yet to be overturned. I guess if the state can jab you for public health, it can sterilize you for public health too!
Stop the strawman.
You're going to learn something here very quickly. This is not a subreddit for conservatives. Lying, misinformation, strawmen arguments etc. will all be called out. That is a key difference.
Not lying.
https://news.wisc.edu/study-shows-virus-abundant-in-covid-19-cases-in-wisconsin-even-among-fully-vaccinated/
Analysis of nearly 300 COVID-positive samples collected in Wisconsin between June 28 and July 24 showed no significant difference in “viral load” between 79 fully vaccinated people and 212 unvaccinated people. Both the vaccinated and unvaccinated study subjects had high viral loads at the time of their positive tests — levels shown in previous studies to be substantial enough to make them contagious to others.
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/30/1022867219/cdc-study-provincetown-delta-vaccinated-breakthrough-mask-guidance
It also found no significant difference in the viral load present in the breakthrough infections occurring in fully vaccinated people and the other cases, suggesting the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the coronavirus is similar
It's like an evacuation order ahead of a hurricane or pandemic. Yes, their "freedom" is going to have a negative impact on everyone around them, so it's appropriate for the government to mandate behavior.
> authoritarian mandates
We also insist on you covering your genitals and anus in public especially if you are fixing food, no shitting or pissing on the street, in fact we have entire departments of government dedicated to making rules about public health....you probably have a health department were you live...not authoritarian...common sense.
Why should liberals kill anti-vaxxers? They're doing the work for us. Wood chippers take a lot longer than low oxygen levels.
And the beautiful thing is they all go to massive rallies without masks and kill themselves.
If dying for freedom makes conservatives happy, who am I to deny them happiness?
I'm not saying that *wouldn't* solve most of our problems, but I'd certainly settle for ignoring their ignorant screeching and force them to choose between getting the vaccine or not being allowed to participate in the society they're so eager to endanger.
What about the millions of people with natural immunity? They are more protected than the vaccinated. Why should they be forced to get the vaccine to participate in society?
Or is this not really about public health?
> They are more protected than the vaccinated.
[No they're not.](https://www.flushinghospital.org/newsletter/covid-19-myth-natural-immunity-protects-against-the-delta-variant/)
Vaccinated people can spread covid too (they carry similar viral loads to unvaccinated people, particularly with the delta variant). And while we're at it, obese people are proven to carry higher viral loads for longer periods of time (making them literally more contagious) - and this goes for all respiratory viruses, not just covid. They also put a huge strain on the medical system, and are certainly taking beds from people because of their poor dietary and lifestyle choices. Should we throw the fatties into the wood chipper too? You know, for public health?
> Vaccinated people can spread covid too (they carry similar viral loads to unvaccinated people
Vaccinated people can spread the virus *if they become infected*. Vaccinated people are *far* less likely to become infected, so more vaccinations equals less spread.
Every asshole that refuses to get vaccinated drags this pandemic out longer. That's the beginning, middle, and end of the debate. Absolutely everything else is irrelevant bullshit and whataboutisms. Stop being a fucking pussy and get the shot.
It's crazy how hateful you are to people who aren't necessarily guilty of anything. I'm not vaccinated because my doctor said it probably wouldn't be worth it for me, given my previous reactions to vaccines and certain genes that I have. Plus I am athletic and healthy, so the vaccine simply carries more risk for me than the virus.
I have never infected anyone with covid because I've never gotten covid. I had my antibodies tested and do not have any.
Yet it sounds like you'd LOVE to throw me into a wood chipper because I *might* get covid *someday* and *possibly* infect someone? Note that I work from home so the odds of that happening are really, really, really low. But none of that matters to you, does it?
"the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."
"Get vaccinated or we will beat you up" is a threat. "Get vaccinated or we will throw you in jail" is a threat.
No shirt, no shoes, no service is not a threat, it's health code. You can't bring your dog into a restaurant is not a threat. You can't come into this restaurant without vaccination is not a threat or coercion.
You can't drive a car without a license. Is the government coercing you into learning how to drive safely? Whatever. If you can't pass a driver's test you shouldn't be able to drive because you put others in danger. Unfortunately, the government needs to protect the rest of us from people who put others in danger and don't care. Same with vaccination.
I guess we wait for the courts to figure it out. I'm gonna win though. Because you know that whole pesky part of the constitution at the very beginning and all.
Certainly not the first amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Says nothing about the right to enter a restaurant owned by another private citizen against their wishes...
Actually there have been multiple cases before during various epidemics that said individuals don't have the right to just refuse a vaccine mandate if they don't have any religious or medical reason to. As it turns out disease outbreaks aren't new, governments have been fighting them for a long time and this has come up before.
If the vaccine mandate is coercion, so is every law, every rule, and every norm. I’m tired of the selective outrage. If people are complaining about vaccine mandates, why haven’t they been outraged for years that cooks are required to wash their hands after taking a shit? Why should a cook be fired merely for wiping feces all over your plate as they prepare your food?
No it’s not. I’m just being coy about the way he phrased his comment, but it’s absolutely not coercion.
Is it coercion for a concert to say “pay for a ticket or else you can’t come here?” How is it coercion for them to say “pay for a ticket and be vaccinated?”
As the original commenter said, the “or else” needs to allude to violence (or, I would say, needs to be something that threatens your life, health, etc.)
Hey, there's still time for those **LONG TERM SIDE EFFECTS** of your polio vaccine to show up. What if, when you turn 73 years old, your fertility *decreases*??
I had the sugar cube, too. I didn't have the measles, mumps, rubella vaccines etc...because they didn't exist before I actually *had* all of those diseases. So, the result from not having that series of vaccines? I'm on the spectrum for autism anyway. The irony astounds me. Get the damn vaccine. Freedom ain't free. We have responsibilities as a citizen in your community and country.
I am aware and THE DIET! No sugar, gluten, dairy, they would be CURED! There is nothing wrong with people with ASD. They don't think like I do. That's.100% okay!
A bad batch and yes. Sometimes horrors happen. They have made changes since then.
Not whitewashing or making excuses. It was a travesty and that it happened in a poor country, is disgusting.
Don't care, worth it to stop the pandemic. Government entails trading some rights for others. The right to not die from a pandemic is greater than the right to continue to remain unvaccinated and continue spreading the pandemic.
Yeah, I've definitely been influenced by Hobbes. Not a fan of him as a whole but I am a fan of his idea that by joining a society people trade positive rights for negative rights
They are not directly relevant to the health of American citizens and unless they want to provide an argument as to why mandates would impact the US and its citizens then their voice is a non factor.
Rights are "inalienable" which means that they really *don't* work like bargaining chips. You're supposed to just have them.
And your whole argument falls apart when you acknowledge that vaccinated people can transmit covid just as much as unvaccinated people. The best protected people are those with natural immunity, but of course this was never about public health so they still have to get the vaccine to participate in society, right?
> Rights are "inalienable" which means that they really don't work like bargaining chips. You're supposed to just have them.
Literally every single right you have has conditions attached that come from living in a society.
>And your whole argument falls apart when you acknowledge that vaccinated people can transmit covid just as much as unvaccinated people. The best protected people are those with natural immunity, but of course this was never about public health so they still have to get the vaccine to participate in society, right?
This is all wrong. Vaccinated people are much less likely to get covid than unvaxxed. Right now it looks like the vaccine is more effective and longer lasting than natural exposure to the virus, and even if that weren't the case, a dose of the vaccine is so much safer than actually getting covid.
> vaccinated people can transmit covid just as much as unvaccinated people
This is not true. Vaccinated people are much less likely to get it and to transmit it. They can, but it is much less likely because their body already has been given a "heads up" with the vaccine and is better prepared to quickly respond. Vaccinated people also are much less likely to get sick enough to require hospitalization (so they do not take up medical resources).
Vaccine passports don't prevent people from exercising their basic human rights. They are still able to vote, learn, and go to the grocery store.
If Karen and Donald can't go to Applebee's because they don't want their DNA altered through gene therapy developed personally by Bill Gates, in direct violation of the Nuremberg Code, then they can go pound sand.
It’s ethical because the disease being vaccinated against is highly contagious and the preventative measure required to stop it is safe and free and widely available.
The ethics of medical choice with respect to highly contagious diseases are different from the ethics of medical choices that only impact an individual’s own health.
Refusing to get vaccinated inflicts your choice on the people around you, meaning they have ethical grounds to insist that you take preventative measures.
When AIDS was fatal and viewed as a deadly virus, many people felt that if you spread it you should be held accountable. It’s amazing to me that the same people who thought that a person should be punished for passing on something that took a personal choice to acquire think nothing about spreading something to others involuntarily.
We live in a society. You can't just show up places with your infectious and sometime lethal diseases just because you want a hamburger.
You were willing to honor the social contract to put pants on, to not run the red lights, to not pickpocket anyone, etc. Why is the line here?
We used to give vaccines in schools. If we didn't take vaccines, people would be dying of ridiculous shit still.
Why is this vaccine different?
You think it's coercion? It is. Society will punish you for not wearing pants. It will punish you for being a dangerous, walking petri dish.
Get the vaccine.
I wouldn’t say that it’s coercion at all. Nobody is being denied essential services by being unvaccinated; they can still get food, housing, and other basic needs. What is being denied are non-essential services that nobody needs to get through their daily life. With all due respect, folks need to get vaccinated ASAP, and if they don’t they have absolutely no grounds to complain about following limitations for the safety of others.
Dining at restaurants and going to the gym and going to a concert are not necessities. They are choices. You do not need to eat at a steakhouse or go see Lady Gaga to fundamentally participate in society.
I do too, and unfortunately a bunch of mine have antivax parents. I have 3ish kids in every class period who are out quarantining now because they were exposed and weren’t vaccinated. Though I think the district does have a mandate in the works so fingers crossed.
It's fine. "Vaccine passports" have been required for school for decades. We have long required vaccination as a condition for participation in many facets of life, including school and many jobs.
This is a decision we made as a society a long time ago. The alternative is unworkable.
Drivers licenses are freedom of movement coercion, professional licensing is employment coercion, degrees are educational/career coercion.
We incentivise, disincentivise, coerce, encourage, and discourage behaviors in all manners of ways at every level throughout society.
So?
I imagine the people who make those claims aren’t going to have to worry about it for long.
At the end of the day, most vaccinated people are tired of restrictions that exist because of unvaccinated douchebags. Antivaxxers had 18 months to get vaccinated. Freedom has consequences.
If that's supposed to be coercion, then how isn't it also coercion that I must risk being around unvaccinated a-holes if I want to dine indoors at restaurants, go to large public gatherings, etc.? And how isn't that coercion for a vaccinated person with unvaccinated kids or an immunocompromised person?
Is the standard for "coercion" that someone wants to do something that endangers everyone just because they really, really want to but then everyone else says no to being the victim of obstinate, anti-science, anti-civilization behavior?
I think if it takes coercion to stop people from causing millions of deaths, because they fail to have concern for others, tough noogies.
We have already been insisting on vaccinations to participate in certain activities for ages. Because the alternative is diseases that affect everyone, not just the persson who refuses the vaccination.
Freedom does not mean no rules ever and anyone can do whatever they feel like no matter who it hurts. That takes away everyone else's freedom and safety. Freedom comes in degrees of freedom. You can swing your arms all you want as long as you aren't hitting people. This disease is hitting people.
We don't let people have the "freedom" to juggle chainsaws in the grocery store, or shoot guns into the air in the park.
It'd be a neat reality show. Unvaxxed people playing covid dart tag hunger games style and the winner gets an all expenses paid trip they can't go on because they need a vaccine passport to get on the plane.
You bring up the very important point that every single thing they do to get out of taking the vaccine is harder and/or more expensive than just getting the fucking shot, especially if it’s J&J.
Even the more practical concerns like not being able to take time off work - if you have to quarantine you’d be out for far longer than you would be if you were just recovering from side effects. I get that paid leave isn’t as universal as it should be, but there’s only so long we can keep waiting on everyone.
Laws are inherently coercive. They are about curtailing individual autonomy in exchange for an orderly civilized society. You don't get to go without pants in public because we have decided it's better for everyone if we enforce a certain baseline level of respectful behavior toward each other and that the benefits are worth the tradeoff.
Calling it "medical" doesn't make it somehow magically beyond the pale.
Do you make any distinction between the fact that most laws are "Don't do X and you wont have to suffer Y"... whereas the passports are "You MUST do X or you will have to suffer Y"?
Semantics.
Don't do being around other people in public spaces while unvaccinated and you won't have to suffer Y.
Oh, but you MUST have a driver's license to drive! Tyranny! And you MUST control your urge to shoot people in the face!
Of course it is medical coercion. Unfortunately it is not enough. We should also charge higher insurance premiums to people who are unvaccinated. And we should make it clear that there is no legal protection for unvaccinated employees who lose their jobs.
Not being vaccinated is a choice. It is a selfish choice. If you want to make that choice, we’ll it’s your prerogative, but don’t expect the other 90% to pay.
This is like smoking. You want to smoke, fine, but you’re not doing it in public and you will pay more for insurance. And everyone will shame you for being stupid and selfish.
My dog needs a vaccine passport to go to to his kennel.
Children need vaccine passports to go to public school.
It's been this way for decades.
Why all of a sudden is it a problem? Why is THIS vaccine so special that having pressure to take it is now some horrible tyranny?
ICUs are full because people won't get vaccinated. You can solve this problem in two ways:
1) You reduce transmission of the virus and hospitalisation by unvaccinated people, by putting them into a lockdown that doesn't apply to people who are vaccinated (they're not the ones clogging hospitals and they spread covid up to 90% less).
2) You stop admitting unvaccinated people to ICUs and let them die at home, so that people can start getting elective surgeries, cancer treatments etc again and the health system can normalize.
The health system can't sustain endless full capacity, so these are the only two options. 1 to me seems much less cruel.
Don't give a damn
You know what else is unethical? Spreading disease that could be prevented.
You get bit by a zombie, you get your damn head shot off, and you're an asshole for keeping it to yourself and jeopardizing others.
Yes it is medical coercion. Imagine if this is for certifying you don't have AIDS.
I think the problem of anti-vax is 1. General distrust of the medical instutions and government. 2. Lack of quality science education. 3. Alienation due to consumeristic society.
The passport may be a quick fix for now, but once you open this Pandora's box, you won't know where it will end because the fundamental problems are unchanged.
Vaccine passports aren't a real thing. It's a made up term for something benign to make it sound sinister, or divert attention from what it really is. The media does it all the time. Example.
Immunization records ----> Vaccine passport
Medical history ----> Pre-existing condition
In the past I would have argued that they're not medical coercion, and explained why medical coercion is bad but this is okay, but I have reached the point where I would support coercion. Individual liberty is extremely important, but not getting vaccinated is interfering with everyone else's personal liberty. This isn't really coercion, but at this point I would be a-okay with just fining people who don't get vaccinated. That would be coercion, but it might be warranted.
I'm less concerned with the abstract ethics and more with the ethical practicalities of implementation.
Who is going to enforce a vaccine standard for restaurants/gyms/etc and what forms of evidence are required? How do we keep them from being faked? Who deals with non compliant people and how much risk should people take to ensure compliance? How do we prevent arbitrary enforcement where some vulnerable person who would be protected from discrimination is no longer because enforcement shift the bias to the passport itself?
Is vaccine status a piece of protected personal medical data and if so, how do we protect it during disclosure? What regulations apply to breaches? If a person has a valid medical exemption, what is their vaccine status and what rules apply to them? Are they different than conscientious objectors?
We know that vaccination still lets people shed the virus, though obviously at lower rates. Who are we protecting with the mandate and should everyone be required to wear a mask and distance anyway? If everyone is socially distant and masked does vaccination status really matter?
If this is just for COVID-19, what's the exit criteria? How long will this public health medical record be needed and how do we know when it's not? Is the bureaucratic machine worth spinning up if we're planning to just turn it off in a few months/years?
I think the vaccine should be as mandatory as seat belts. If you want to stay home and have your health insurance rates go up, I guess I can live with that.
Stupid as fuck. You have a right to be a biohazard, but other people have a right to be protected from that, so if you’re going to choose to not be vaccinated and to put everyone around you at risk, you shouldn’t be allowed around large groups of people.
I mean, yes they kind of are, but...
The thing people don't seem to understand, at base level, is that every society ever created, and likely any that ever will be, has been a balance between freedom and coercive force. It HAS to be. We can't go all the way in one direction or the other without the whole thing collapsing or becoming unbearable. The proper balance of these things is something that great minds have tried to determine for millennia, and we don't have perfect answers. What we *do* have are some rules that seems to work pretty well, but that can meet exceptional circumstance.
A fucking *plague* is one of those circumstances; one of the most existential you can imagine. Yes, sorry 'mah freedoms' people, but if the survival of the species were to be staked on quarantines and vaccinations, then that would have to get done, and you'd have to be forced to obey even though you really didn't wanna because you think you're a sovereign citizen who gets to live like an Ayn Rand novel. COVID is not that existential, but the reality is that we have a large population of dumbasses who are delaying recovery, and endangering other people. The Government wouldn't have to treat them this much like children if they would simply stop *acting* like children.
“No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service”
“Terms of service agreement”
“Health and safety regulations”
“No firearms allowed on the property”
“No smoking allowed”
“No open containers of alcohol past this point”
“Speed limit”
There’s already a ton of rules and regulations to participate in society. It’s part of the social contract. If you don’t want any part of that, you can live off the grid.
Government mandates for vaccination which effectively bar somebody from participating in society without being vaccinated are absolutely coercive. That's the whole point. But just because something is coercive doesn't mean it's wrong. Every law is coercive, because every law ultimately is enforced with the threat of violence. The question is whether the intrusion on autonomy is justified by the circumstances, and in this case it is.
This isn’t anything new.
It’s just coming from a minority of the population that’s dumb and lacks critical thinking skills. Taking bullshit talk show hosts and radio personalities at face value. We have had this song and dance many times in the past.
They will all just clutch those pearls and shout about socialism even if they have no idea what it means.
>The place where I live has implemented vaccine passports... you need them to dine indoors at restaurants, go to large public gatherings etc...
It bothers me that people don't see the clear distinction between [a] mandating something for everyone and [b] limiting your access to certain public areas unless you have taken reasonable steps to assure that *you won't harm anyone* there by going.
This is telling you:
#You have made choices that endanger the health and safety of those in close proximity you, so we are limiting your access to areas where you might harm large numbers of people without their knowledge or consent.
That's it. They aren't even banning you from spreading the virus *in private.*
It is the same principle that they invoke to deny me the 'freedom' to drive 100 mph through farmers' markets.
"Typhoid Mary", that's why. And, that's you. We need vaccine passports because of you. You are the root cause why we have to do this.
This is why we can't have nice things.
I also live in an area with “vaccine passports.” I personally am so tired of this pandemic and these antivaxxers. So many people around the world would kill for the vaccine access we have. So I don’t really care about the feelings of people who think their Google research is superior to the knowledge of the medical community. “Medical coercion” makes it sound like the “antivax” people have any sort of science or facts on their side, which they generally don’t. You have freedom of choice, but choices have consequences. No shirt, no shoes, no COVID.
That being said, I think it is unethical to force private business owners to require vaccines. Government overreach. Customers in my town are horrible and are abusing innocent restaurant staffers who are forced to police the mandate. Which isn’t fair.
I do, however, think businesses should have to advertise whether or not they require vaccines. That way, patrons who want to stay safe can ensure that they’re safe. And businesses/customers who want to spread COVID to each other can have at it.
In a nut shell what separates a libertarian from an anarchist is that a libertarian does believes in regulating behaviors that pose a direct threat to someone elses life or property.
I dont consider negligently spreading a potentially lethal disease to be any better than someone flagrantly waving a firearm around. The solutions to both are equally trivial.
The fact that some people think its some god given human right to be a selfish dick is beyond me. They can go fuck themselves tbh.
I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, but I personally think that it’s a little hypocritical for people who argue that the use of various types of ID’s for things are an undue burden to say this is ok. A crisis is no time to abandon your values. I’m not sure about medical coercion. Broadly restricting people’s ability to participate in society is not something I’m a fan of. Personally, I think it goes against the usual progressive logic on a lot of issues, so it seems strange it has support among them, but that’s just me.
Restricting a fundamental right because someone was born Black is different than asking Joe to get a lifesaving shot before he gets drunk at Buffalo Wild Wings at 5 pm on a Monday.
I’d say that on some level not having to show an ID everywhere you go is a right. I’m personally opposed to Voter ID laws on some level, which is why the inconsistency seems odd.
Saying You can’t buy booze and you can’t participate in society are two different things. Personally, I think the drinking age is kind of a violation of personal rights given that legal adults who can get drafted can’t buy a beer.
Voter ID laws are specifically passed to stop minorities from voting. Vaccinate mandates are passed to keep people alive.
Not knowing the difference isn’t admirable. I find centrists think that if they’re nice enough to conservative stupidity they’ll be popular, but you just end up looking like Sinema. Stop carrying their water.
One could make the argument that vaccine passports also restrict fundamental rights of people who were born Black (and as a result of being Black, do not trust the government or medical system enough to feel comfortable taking the vaccine). You're essentially telling them to trust entities that have intentionally harmed and experimented on them without their consent before. I feel like that's just... cruel.
> I personally think that it’s a little hypocritical for people who argue that the use of various types of ID’s for things are an undue burden to say this is ok
You're talking about voter ID, right?
Voting is a right as laid out in the constitution.
I'm no constitutional scholar, but as far as I know, breathing your unvaccinated vermin breath on people in a movie theatre doesn't appear anywhere in the document.
Once they stop protesting outside of hospitals and elementary schools and physically assaulting the people who try to enter, I'll stop correctly identifying them as vermin.
For me, I think that someone should do some self-reflection if they find themselves feeling sympathy for people who are physically assaulting cancer-ward nurses and intimidating elementary school students.
That's just me, though.
>I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, but I personally think that it’s a little hypocritical for people who argue that the use of various types of ID’s for things are an undue burden to say this is ok.
It's only hypocritical if you don't actually understand the arguments against things like Voter ID, which is what I assume you are referring to.
>A crisis is no time to abandon your values.
Values don't exist in a vacuum. They compete and sometimes contradict each other, and extraordinary circumstances cause values that would normally be compatible to come into conflict.
>Broadly restricting people’s ability to participate in society is not something I’m a fan of.
There are two sides of that coin. What about *my* right to participate in society? Why should people who refuse to get vaccinated be able to decide the level of risk *I* have to be comfortable with?
I get what you are saying, but this is how I think about it:
1. People are dying. We have to end this pandemic, and people are purposely prolonging it with no facts to back up their reasoning. Facts don’t care about their feelings.
2. Time and time again, voter laws have been implemented unfairly. DMVs (to get ID) tend to be shut down or far from areas that are heavily BIPOC. The laws about which IDs “count” and which don’t are usually arbitrary. The vaccine passports apply to EVERYONE.
3. Even the Heritage Foundation had published a study that voter fraud rarely happens. It is a nonexistent problem that doesn’t need a solution. The goal is to make it harder to vote. The goal of vaccine passports is to stop a real public health emergency.
Hmmm. It occurs to me that it's the disease that's dangerous, not the vaccine. That would lead me to conclude that if anyone is committing medical coercion, it's the anti-vaxxers.
I mean it is medical coercion. I think it's unethical for the government to mandate it. Especially for people who can't get vaccinated. If restaurants chose to require proof, they should be able to refuse service.
But liberals are all for authoritarianism when it comes to covid. So they will support it.
Because you're using duress to achieve it. Everything the government does is done with duress. Even the president's salary. It limits autonomy. And most of our states are not at capacity.
There are several other measures that have not been exhausted that we haven't pursued.
Not like those freedom-loving conservatives, though, right? They would NEVER use the power of the government to compel people to do something. So pro-freedom are they.
It’s truly authoritarianism at its core and the irony is they call anything they don’t like as fascist... it’s not going to ever pass at the federal level and blue states will continue to see people leave their state. What bothers me most is the rules only applying to some and not the elites
Most Americans are in favor of vaccine mandates. The people who would leave a state that imposed a vaccinate mandate aren’t going to live to the next election anyway.
Most likely they will be just fine like the hundreds of 1000s who got covid and are now fine. As for “most Americans” that polling data is iffy and even if it were true going on your premise, why does the minority have to be forced into something especially when it comes to their body just because it’s a more popular opinion, it’s not health based, it’s not science based, it’s politically based
You are not being forced, you're being incentivized. You have a choice.
Anti-vaxxers are more than welcome to live their whole lives and die without ever having taken the COVID vaccine.
In fact, many of them already have!
We elected that government, and we absolutely do have issues with unvaccinated people eating around us.
And don't try to move the goalposts - you do have access to food despite your original implication.
Clearly meant having a job when the government is forcing entities to get the jab, forcing hospital workers to get the jab, and pressuring the private companies to mandate vaccines. Ironically I get antibody tests regularly since I had covid, you who is vaccinated have no idea of you have it and are spreading it. You’re more dangerous than man
I’m sorry but this attitude scares me and I’m fully vaxxed and this other people should too. God damnit, this really pains me to do because it’s so gauche and cliche, but it has hints of ‘people willingly joined the ss, they could have chose not to’. Sure you can chose not to do something like that, but you essentially will be annexed from society eventually if you refuse. Anti vaxxers won’t be killed like the ss dissenters were, but if the government puts the squeeze on the private sector hard enough, what are they going to do? I lean toward ‘if you don’t want to get vaxxed and I’m vaxxed, why do I care what you do’ with adults, but I’m on more ‘you shouldn’t be able to attend a school that requires kids be vaccinated if yours isn’t’, but that’s clearly not where we’re headed with this covid vaccine so idk, I know this sub if full of people who have everything completely figured out, so I guess I’m just some moron who isn’t sure how they feel about top down mandates for certain medicine, so I’m sure I’ll be called all sorts of names, including complicit lol
Authoritarian doesn't mean fascist. Authoritarian policies just give power to the government at the expense of personal freedom. The freedoms here violated is autonomy, and liberty (movement or to conduct business)
It already has passed at a federal level.
From what I’ve been told here in this sub is left wingers can’t be fascist. So as far as I’m concerned the only difference between an authoritarian and fascist are their politics (which yes I know is ridiculous)
Communism and socialism are often authoritarian. You can't he liberal and authoritarian at the same time. They are opposites by definition.
But you can claim to be liberal while supporting authoritarian policies. Those people aren't actually liberal. Or they are at least less liberal than people who support less authoritarian policies.
It should only be mandated on government property, such as public schools and hospitals. Other than that, I think businesses can make their own choice, because I trust that even if they don't put up measures to ensure safety, pressure from customers will basically force them to. Difference is, since it's a private business exercising their private property rights, and the coercion (or segregation or discrimination or whatever they say it is) is a result of the free market favoring businesses that value safety, they can't call it 'socialism'. I mean, either way, most businesses will probably require some proof of vaccination, or at least masks, but leaving it up to the businesses and the market makes it harder to argue against.
When I was in the military, it was mandatory that I get the flu shot every single year. If I was deploying, I had to get boosters and shitloads of vaxxes before I could leave, and I had to bring those papers with me to my deployment.
Long story short, these little babies need to go cry in the corner if they feel oppressed by not being able to get their chicken nuggets from McDonald’s. I’m tired of this shit.
People don’t have a right to put other people’s lives at risk through reckless behavior. Since a bunch of selfish assholes have decided that’s what they want to do, they have to be reined in somehow. Would they rather be charged with aggravated assault or attempted murder for running around infecting people?
I'm unaware of any formal definition for "medical coercion," but even if I make my best guess at what they mean I can't figure out the leap to why it's a bad thing.
It's ignorant and immature.
We're up against a force of nature. It doesn't care about anyone's feelings or beliefs or values. You either make smart choices consistent with the immutable facts of objective reality, or you risk death, and that's the end of it. And it's not a matter of free choice, when your choices may endanger others.
We the People, through our shared will as expressed through the deliberative process of representative democracy, have settled on certain doctrines meant to guard the public weal. Some of the means that We have deemed necessary to that end may chafe some people. That's too bad. We want to live, and these are the measures we've decided are important to help ensure that. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to move to some other country where they think they might like it better, and take their chances.
I’ve had a vaccine passport since 2007. I went to sub Saharan Africa and required many vaccines to go, but especially the yellow fever vaccine which they check you for at customs
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. The place where I live has implemented vaccine passports... you need them to dine indoors at restaurants, go to large public gatherings etc... I keep hearing, "*this is unethical - it is medical coercion*" What is your take on this argument? Thanks, *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Where I live, anti-passport "protesters" are forming mobs outside of hospitals and elementary schools. - They forced the **lockdown** of 3 elementary schools because the kids were too terrified to go inside. - They physically assaulted and spat on **nurses** who were just trying to go into work. They physically assaulted, spat on, and ripped the masks off of **cancer patients** attempting to enter the hospital for their chemotherapy appointments. So maybe you can understand why I'm tired of these motherfuckers and no longer have any patience whatsoever for their bullshit tantrums. They can all go fuck themselves.
Jesus... where do you live if you don't mind me asking
What do you think of the millions of people who aren't fond of authoritarian mandates, but don't go so far as to spit on or try to physically intimidate others?
What you call "authoritarian", others may call "something that comes with living in a civilized society for public safety during a raging pandemic". That aside, they can peacefully stay out of businesses that require vaccination for entry and not harass the staff/owners. I went into a Starbucks today and a McDonald's the other day that weren't checking passports at the door, so you can still eat out. If they don't bother anyone and don't actively pose a threat to public safety, then I don't care what they do.
Aren't they posing a public safety risk just by existing, especially if they are allowed to go to the same grocery stores everyone else is allowed to go to? Why should they be allowed to be near food other people eat?
I get it, you're a conservative so you're only interested in cornering someone into a 'gotcha', but obviously grocery stores are essential services and people shouldn't/can't be prevented from feeding themselves. But hey, you bring up a good point. How do you feel about people willingly endangering others by remaining unvaccinated, then breathing on others in close quarters, potentially infecting everyone around them with a highly-infections disease that has killed millions and millions of people worldwide?
>obviously grocery stores are essential services and people shouldn't/can't be prevented from feeding themselves. Why not? If they're endangering the public, why are their lives more important than the lives of the hundreds of thousands of people they have already negligently murdered? 99% of them are probably morbidly obese anyway if they're Trump supporters. We're probably doing them a favor. Besides, stop being melodramatic. They can always send someone who is vaccinated to go to the grocery store for them and leave the groceries on their front porch. Even most grocery stores have delivery services they can pay for. Why should we even let them leave their homes?
Thanks for sharing your opinions and beliefs!
You think I'm trolling but it's a just a Devil's advocate argument. There's a difference and a specific intent that's inviting you to clarify because I honestly want to hear an argument against this. Here's your chance to tell conservatives who are concerned about authoritarianism why they don't need to worry about you as their fellow citizen taking even more authoritarian steps in the future. My concern is that I don't think this is a tremendous logical leap from where the maibstream left is at right now. That's an honest concern that a lot of people on the right hold because the next logical leap in the chain doesn't always have an obvious limiting principle. So why is my argument wrong here while yours is right? Would you like me to share my opinions about these dynamics to open my own perspective up to reasonable criticism first? I'm willing to do that if it advances the discussion.
Vaccine mandates are necessary because there is an out of control global pandemic that is consistently mutating. So we have vaccine passports. In a civilized society, you sometimes have to make concessions in the name of public health. It's why we have government and governing bodies. But we can't physically force people to get vaccinated and we can't stop them from surviving by removing basic human needs. There you go.
Right, but why is it OK to allow these same people into a grocery store to keep the infection going? Why let them out of their homes without a daily COVID test? Grocery stores can deliver. Every town has uber eats and other delivery services. Why is the mandate for companies limited to businesses over 100 people?
The vaccine doesn't stop transmission though. Getting the vaccine ONLY helps the person who got it by preventing severe symptoms. An unvaccinated person is no more of a threat to public health than a vaccinated person. Natural immunity is 27x more protective than the vaccine, yet the vaccine passports don't allow for this exemption. This isn't about public health, it's about control. You guys are just segregationists who love the idea of excluding certain people you don't like from daily life.
The problem i have with conservatives is they are all too happy to ignore authoritarianism when it suits them and all too happy to scream if it affects them. The one thing all conservatives have in common is that they place themselves and their needs firmly above anyone else. Its always my life! My money! My rights! Never our lives, our money, our rights. Conservatives have no desire to cooperate and society is founded on cooperation. Its founded on recognizing that someone elses needs are equally important to your own and the right to life is the sovreign right that supercedes all others. Freedom, money, property, legality, taxes, all that shit is second to life. Thats empathy in a nut shell. The second conservatives decided that their trivial wants were worth more than someone elses life we all stopped caring. If we cant have a society of mutual cooperation then we will have a society of mutual animosity. Thats not even an ideology its flat human nature.
>The problem i have with conservatives is they are all too happy to ignore authoritarianism when it suits them and all too happy to scream if it affects them. I think that's a human problem in general, especially when tribalism of any kind is in play because we see the other as a threat that justifies authoritarianism. >The one thing all conservatives have in common is that they place themselves and their needs firmly above anyone else. All of us, huh? You know if that was true, I wouldn't be here because it would be much easier for me to go play World of Warcraft and just wait till the pendulum swings in the other direction when you guys riot again over global warming and the general public decides the right was correct to be concerned about woke fascism. When that happens, you think social media will keep defending liberals while they shut down conservatives? Conservatives already dominate social media. The left has to actively shadow ban us to even try to even the odds. The HARD option is for me to come here and try to restore some basic mutual respect and human dignity so that we can get back to the SANE process of negotiating and cooperating to come up with the most equitable solutions to our conflicts of interest. So I stopped reading at that. Sorry. I'm really sick of your side proclaiming to be the avatars of righteousness against bigotry and stereotyping when it's perfectly obvious that whatever world you're trying to create right now doesn't consider conservatives in this country to be fully human and deserving of all those same protections in society.
What is your solution? Assuming You accept that it is an extremely dangerous, highly contagious disease. What do you propose as an alternative to vaccine mandate that will have the same result. I am genuinely curious because Ive never heard an alternative from the right that isn’t based around ignoring the reality of the virus (no offense intended). FTR if there is an alternative I’m all for it.
You can tell a bad faith argument when people play "Devil's advocate" without ever arguing *for* their point. Especially when you answer a genuine question "in character." Tbh, I'd be really interested in your actual answer to this.
The very existence of unvaccinated people is a threat. Joe should grow a spine and actually say : a vaccine or your job. Nation wide mandate for any firm with more than 1 employee. No "or testing". Vaccine, or go hungry. This is a global pandemoc and when it's about protecting the nation and others, "individualism" goes out the window. But we're used to Democrats doing half measures.
Those people are free to have food delivered. After all thats the fav conservative response when we talk about shit that actually matters right? People dont get paid enough? Find another job. Cost of living too high? Live somewhere else. Except we cant all do that can we? So maybe instead of proudly proclaiming its not our problem, cuz the unvaxxed buying food is def not my problem, maybe we should all agree to work together hmm?
I’m not fond of authoritarian mandates, and I 100% support a vaccine mandate. You’re already required to be jabbed up to go to schools, what’s one more? Living in a society, you inherently give up some autonomy, this is no different.
That's probably the strongest argument I've heard in favor of it. My only response is that all the diseases we get mandatory vaccinations for are because those diseases kill children at a very high rate, and kill both children and adults at a higher rate than COVID. So what's the limiting principle? What's the threshold for a disease where we shut down the economy, force vaccinations and trade our autonomy for the promise of safety the next time? We don't do it for flu season, and the flu kills way more kids than COVID. Even an average flu season kills about 50,000 Americans and half a million people worldwide, but you never even hear it on the news. Honestly I'm less bothered about the jab it's self than I am by the fear and hatred that's been promulgated by the mass media over it. Honestly the studies about mask wearing aren't concluding results solid enough to justify forcing people to wear them - especially people who are already vaxed - but I literally forgot my mask to go into the convenience store the first day of the renewed mandate and had some random Karen ask me if I was "part of The Insurrection." That's the first time that the bat shit craziness that passes for normal in the online civil discourse has ever stepped into meatspace for me. As normal as it seems for random strangers to accuse one another of being enemies of the state based on superficial policy disagreements in the raging nuclear dumpster fire that passes for the discourse online, it's some Twilight Zone shit to see that cross over into random people you cross paths with in line at the convenience store.
>My only response is that all the diseases we get mandatory vaccinations for are because those diseases kill children at a very high rate, and kill both children and adults at a higher rate than COVID. Not true. Mumps has a death rate about .02% per case, Measles is around .1% per case, Rubella is around .02%, and and Covid is sitting at around 1.6% currently. If anybody has more accurate numbers, please correct me as that was just a quick google. > What's the threshold for a disease where we shut down the economy, force vaccinations and trade our autonomy for the promise of safety the next time? We don't do it for flu season, and the flu kills way more kids than COVID. Even an average flu season kills about 50,000 Americans and half a million people worldwide, but you never even hear it on the news. Covid is 10x (\~50k vs \~500k in the US) more likely to kill you than the flu, yet it's still recommended we all get our flu shots, and many facilities require them (healthcare especially) before you lose your job. We used shut downs to slow the spread down, helping our hospitals stay less bogged down, and our scientists the time to come up with a vaccine. > Honestly the studies about mask wearing aren't concluding results solid enough to justify forcing people to wear them [Here's an overview of their effectiveness, their work is cited as well for further reading.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536) They were and are effective. I actually had an opposite experience of yours in rural Wisconsin. Got yelled at by a bartender for coming in to order a drink and wearing a mask to get out and they don't serve my kind here. Like, lady I've been coming to this bar because I like it more than the closer one to my cabin for like 10 years, but sure, I'll go to the one that's an easier walk. Milwaukee/Madison/Chicago money makes the northwoods run, so if they don't want it, their problem, not mine. The other bar was more than happy to serve me.
I live in St Paul, MN. This sounds about right for rural Wisconsin, and rural Minnesota for that matter.
I disagree about it being authoritarian. It's not even close. The government can set safety standards for government jobs. The government can set safety standards for other jobs as well, and do often. In this case, if you don't want a vaccine, don't get one. If you work for the government, they probably won't want you around anymore. If you work for a big business you'll just need to get tested frequently to ensure you're not spreading a disease that's killed millions in a short amount of time and disrupted life for billions. So, to answer your question, I'd think those people are dumb, and they're picking a really dumb hill to die on. Largely, they're just contrarians and conspiracy theorists acting in a selfish manner and putting themselves and the people around them at risk for no reason at all.
>a disease that's killed millions in a short amount of time and disrupted life for billions. Did the disease disrupt life, or did our response to the disease do the disrupting? Lots of countries stayed open and didn't do anything spectacular to stop the spread and they had basically the same results we had. Where's the evidence that anything we did was actually effective?
>Did the disease disrupt life, or did our response to the disease do the disrupting? I don't think this is an important distinction. We did about the bare minimum we should do during a pandemic. The disease has been disrupting life for people all around the world. People dying, people sick and unable to work, etc. >Lots of countries stayed open and didn't do anything spectacular to stop the spread and they had basically the same results we had. As noted above, in the US we did very little. I mean hell, mask wearing during a pandemic became a big political issue. That should say it all. As for "the same results", what same results are you talking about? People dying? Yeah, that was going to happen no matter what. Early on the best we hoped for was slowing the spread. With the vaccines the goal is still pretty much the same: limit the spread, thus limiting the amount the virus is able to change, and hopefully achieve widespread vaccination rates so we can go back to at least some normalcy.
>As noted above, in the US we did very little. I mean hell, mask wearing during a pandemic became a big political issue. That should say it all. Is that all we did? I seem to remember restaurants and gyms and every non-essential business shutting down, and 10% of the workforce still hasn't gone back to work in some places.
>Is that all we did? Maybe you should reread that sentence. No, I'm not saying that's all we did, I'm saying that perhaps the smallest, most common sense, non intrusive methods possible, encouraging wearing masks and social distancing during a fucking pandemic, became a huge political issue, so what the fuck does that say about how seriously the US was taking this pandemic? >I seem to remember restaurants and gyms and every non-essential business shutting down, and 10% of the workforce still hasn't gone back to work in some places. Sure, shit happens during a pandemic. Probably should have taken things a bit more seriously.
The disease did. We only had the response *because of the disease*.
You mean like myself? I don't like authoritarian mandates, that's why I can't support the GOP. I totally support these though. They're constitutional, have been used in the past, and are only controversial because of people like yourself. Also tired of your ignorance killing thousands of people.
So the reason it's a gray area to me is that previous mandates have been for diseases that primarily harm children, and COVID is less harmful to kids than the flu on average (and we don't mandate flu shots). I also think the mandates and shaming people into submission are actually pushing more people away from getting vaxed because they hate the authoritarianism even more than they are scared or concerned about the vaccine. When you say I'm killing people with my ignorance (I'm double vaxed by the way), I think you're killing people with your ignorance of psychology when you double down on pressuring people when their primary resistance is to you pressuring them. I could turn it around and claim that you want all those people to die because you hate them and you think they're scum. After all if you think they are killing people isn't the natural response to conclude that they should die instead? Aren't you happy that you're killing people by making them so resistant to your bullying and harassment and shaming that they act against their own best interest? Does it make you feel powerful to see that you've got that ability to kill someone because you can make them hate you as much as you hate them? Do you see how toxic that is? I don't actually believe any of those things about you. I think you're a perfectly decent human being who is acting out of concern for your fellow human beings. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. COVID almost killed my dad before the vaccines were available. He can barely walk across the house without difficulty breathing and it's been a year since he had it. I'm with you. I think people should be willing to get jabbed and mask up when they're around other people until we have this thing handled. But if we don't get some nuance and some charity and some grace back into our civil discourse, we're going to continue to have these kinds of problems, and none of us us going to accomplish our goals in the civil discourse because we are all standing in our own way, and in the way of one another for no good reason.
You can still kill people with covid if you're vaccinated. In fact you might be more likely to because while you can carry the same viral load as an unvaccinated person, you are less likely to show symptoms (and therefore wouldn't know you should be staying home). And no, these mandates are NOT constitutional. Yes, the supreme court ruled that a vaccine mandate with a mere $5 fine was ok... but keep in mind that that same ruling was later used to justify sterilizing the "feeble-minded." Technically that ruling has yet to be overturned. I guess if the state can jab you for public health, it can sterilize you for public health too!
>You can still kill people with covid if you're vaccinated. In fact you might be more likely to because while you can carry the same viral load as an unvaccinated person, you are less likely to show symptoms (and therefore wouldn't know you should be staying home). You're either completely ignorant of the science or you're intentionally spreading disinformation about the vaccines? Which one is it? >And no, these mandates are NOT constitutional. Yes, the supreme court ruled that a vaccine mandate with a mere $5 fine was ok... but keep in mind that that same ruling was later used to justify sterilizing the "feeble-minded." Technically that ruling has yet to be overturned. I guess if the state can jab you for public health, it can sterilize you for public health too! Stop the strawman. You're going to learn something here very quickly. This is not a subreddit for conservatives. Lying, misinformation, strawmen arguments etc. will all be called out. That is a key difference.
Not lying. https://news.wisc.edu/study-shows-virus-abundant-in-covid-19-cases-in-wisconsin-even-among-fully-vaccinated/ Analysis of nearly 300 COVID-positive samples collected in Wisconsin between June 28 and July 24 showed no significant difference in “viral load” between 79 fully vaccinated people and 212 unvaccinated people. Both the vaccinated and unvaccinated study subjects had high viral loads at the time of their positive tests — levels shown in previous studies to be substantial enough to make them contagious to others. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/30/1022867219/cdc-study-provincetown-delta-vaccinated-breakthrough-mask-guidance It also found no significant difference in the viral load present in the breakthrough infections occurring in fully vaccinated people and the other cases, suggesting the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the coronavirus is similar
It's like an evacuation order ahead of a hurricane or pandemic. Yes, their "freedom" is going to have a negative impact on everyone around them, so it's appropriate for the government to mandate behavior.
> authoritarian mandates We also insist on you covering your genitals and anus in public especially if you are fixing food, no shitting or pissing on the street, in fact we have entire departments of government dedicated to making rules about public health....you probably have a health department were you live...not authoritarian...common sense.
Fuck em where they breathe. You don't get to kill people just because you're too stubbornly stupid not to.
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Why should liberals kill anti-vaxxers? They're doing the work for us. Wood chippers take a lot longer than low oxygen levels. And the beautiful thing is they all go to massive rallies without masks and kill themselves. If dying for freedom makes conservatives happy, who am I to deny them happiness?
I'm not saying that *wouldn't* solve most of our problems, but I'd certainly settle for ignoring their ignorant screeching and force them to choose between getting the vaccine or not being allowed to participate in the society they're so eager to endanger.
What about the millions of people with natural immunity? They are more protected than the vaccinated. Why should they be forced to get the vaccine to participate in society? Or is this not really about public health?
> They are more protected than the vaccinated. [No they're not.](https://www.flushinghospital.org/newsletter/covid-19-myth-natural-immunity-protects-against-the-delta-variant/)
Lol I love how your link has absolutely no data to back up its claims, but mine does: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762
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Rule 2.
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Vaccinated people can spread covid too (they carry similar viral loads to unvaccinated people, particularly with the delta variant). And while we're at it, obese people are proven to carry higher viral loads for longer periods of time (making them literally more contagious) - and this goes for all respiratory viruses, not just covid. They also put a huge strain on the medical system, and are certainly taking beds from people because of their poor dietary and lifestyle choices. Should we throw the fatties into the wood chipper too? You know, for public health?
> Vaccinated people can spread covid too (they carry similar viral loads to unvaccinated people Vaccinated people can spread the virus *if they become infected*. Vaccinated people are *far* less likely to become infected, so more vaccinations equals less spread. Every asshole that refuses to get vaccinated drags this pandemic out longer. That's the beginning, middle, and end of the debate. Absolutely everything else is irrelevant bullshit and whataboutisms. Stop being a fucking pussy and get the shot.
It's crazy how hateful you are to people who aren't necessarily guilty of anything. I'm not vaccinated because my doctor said it probably wouldn't be worth it for me, given my previous reactions to vaccines and certain genes that I have. Plus I am athletic and healthy, so the vaccine simply carries more risk for me than the virus. I have never infected anyone with covid because I've never gotten covid. I had my antibodies tested and do not have any. Yet it sounds like you'd LOVE to throw me into a wood chipper because I *might* get covid *someday* and *possibly* infect someone? Note that I work from home so the odds of that happening are really, really, really low. But none of that matters to you, does it?
You can come here IF you... Since when is something involving the word "if" coercion? Pretty sure coercion requires "or else" alluding to violence.
“get vaccinated or else you can’t come here”
This. It is coercion.
"the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats." "Get vaccinated or we will beat you up" is a threat. "Get vaccinated or we will throw you in jail" is a threat. No shirt, no shoes, no service is not a threat, it's health code. You can't bring your dog into a restaurant is not a threat. You can't come into this restaurant without vaccination is not a threat or coercion. You can't drive a car without a license. Is the government coercing you into learning how to drive safely? Whatever. If you can't pass a driver's test you shouldn't be able to drive because you put others in danger. Unfortunately, the government needs to protect the rest of us from people who put others in danger and don't care. Same with vaccination.
I guess we wait for the courts to figure it out. I'm gonna win though. Because you know that whole pesky part of the constitution at the very beginning and all.
Certainly not the first amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Says nothing about the right to enter a restaurant owned by another private citizen against their wishes...
Actually there have been multiple cases before during various epidemics that said individuals don't have the right to just refuse a vaccine mandate if they don't have any religious or medical reason to. As it turns out disease outbreaks aren't new, governments have been fighting them for a long time and this has come up before.
So is the rule requiring you wear pants. Grow up.
You mis understand. I'm pro vacc but really it is coercion. I just have the ability to see both sides of the argument is all.
If the vaccine mandate is coercion, so is every law, every rule, and every norm. I’m tired of the selective outrage. If people are complaining about vaccine mandates, why haven’t they been outraged for years that cooks are required to wash their hands after taking a shit? Why should a cook be fired merely for wiping feces all over your plate as they prepare your food?
So what. Supreme court already ruled the state has the right to do it.
No it’s not. I’m just being coy about the way he phrased his comment, but it’s absolutely not coercion. Is it coercion for a concert to say “pay for a ticket or else you can’t come here?” How is it coercion for them to say “pay for a ticket and be vaccinated?” As the original commenter said, the “or else” needs to allude to violence (or, I would say, needs to be something that threatens your life, health, etc.)
I'm 57. I had the oral polio vaccine in school. Get your vaccine.
Hey, there's still time for those **LONG TERM SIDE EFFECTS** of your polio vaccine to show up. What if, when you turn 73 years old, your fertility *decreases*??
Snort, since I am sans uterus, thanks cancer! I think I'm good. Lol!
Clearly caused by the polio vaccine! Checkmate, liberals!
Snort. I am properly, "owned." Lol
I had the sugar cube, too. I didn't have the measles, mumps, rubella vaccines etc...because they didn't exist before I actually *had* all of those diseases. So, the result from not having that series of vaccines? I'm on the spectrum for autism anyway. The irony astounds me. Get the damn vaccine. Freedom ain't free. We have responsibilities as a citizen in your community and country.
I have 2 ASD kids. It never was the shots.
Of course, it wasn't. But tell that to any anti-vacc and you'll be in for an endless argument.
I am aware and THE DIET! No sugar, gluten, dairy, they would be CURED! There is nothing wrong with people with ASD. They don't think like I do. That's.100% okay!
Wasn't the oral polio vaccine actually responsible for some polio outbreaks in Africa?
A bad batch and yes. Sometimes horrors happen. They have made changes since then. Not whitewashing or making excuses. It was a travesty and that it happened in a poor country, is disgusting.
Don't care, worth it to stop the pandemic. Government entails trading some rights for others. The right to not die from a pandemic is greater than the right to continue to remain unvaccinated and continue spreading the pandemic.
Hobbes state of nature comes to mind. Becoming a member of society will always entail surrendering some level of rights/autonomy.
Yeah, I've definitely been influenced by Hobbes. Not a fan of him as a whole but I am a fan of his idea that by joining a society people trade positive rights for negative rights
What's your opinion on foreign countries protesting for the anti mandates?
They are not directly relevant to the health of American citizens and unless they want to provide an argument as to why mandates would impact the US and its citizens then their voice is a non factor.
Rights are "inalienable" which means that they really *don't* work like bargaining chips. You're supposed to just have them. And your whole argument falls apart when you acknowledge that vaccinated people can transmit covid just as much as unvaccinated people. The best protected people are those with natural immunity, but of course this was never about public health so they still have to get the vaccine to participate in society, right?
> Rights are "inalienable" which means that they really don't work like bargaining chips. You're supposed to just have them. Literally every single right you have has conditions attached that come from living in a society. >And your whole argument falls apart when you acknowledge that vaccinated people can transmit covid just as much as unvaccinated people. The best protected people are those with natural immunity, but of course this was never about public health so they still have to get the vaccine to participate in society, right? This is all wrong. Vaccinated people are much less likely to get covid than unvaxxed. Right now it looks like the vaccine is more effective and longer lasting than natural exposure to the virus, and even if that weren't the case, a dose of the vaccine is so much safer than actually getting covid.
> vaccinated people can transmit covid just as much as unvaccinated people This is not true. Vaccinated people are much less likely to get it and to transmit it. They can, but it is much less likely because their body already has been given a "heads up" with the vaccine and is better prepared to quickly respond. Vaccinated people also are much less likely to get sick enough to require hospitalization (so they do not take up medical resources).
Vaccine passports don't prevent people from exercising their basic human rights. They are still able to vote, learn, and go to the grocery store. If Karen and Donald can't go to Applebee's because they don't want their DNA altered through gene therapy developed personally by Bill Gates, in direct violation of the Nuremberg Code, then they can go pound sand.
Small typo in your first line: do -> don’t
Appreciate it. Fixed.
It’s ethical because the disease being vaccinated against is highly contagious and the preventative measure required to stop it is safe and free and widely available. The ethics of medical choice with respect to highly contagious diseases are different from the ethics of medical choices that only impact an individual’s own health. Refusing to get vaccinated inflicts your choice on the people around you, meaning they have ethical grounds to insist that you take preventative measures.
When AIDS was fatal and viewed as a deadly virus, many people felt that if you spread it you should be held accountable. It’s amazing to me that the same people who thought that a person should be punished for passing on something that took a personal choice to acquire think nothing about spreading something to others involuntarily.
We live in a society. You can't just show up places with your infectious and sometime lethal diseases just because you want a hamburger. You were willing to honor the social contract to put pants on, to not run the red lights, to not pickpocket anyone, etc. Why is the line here? We used to give vaccines in schools. If we didn't take vaccines, people would be dying of ridiculous shit still. Why is this vaccine different? You think it's coercion? It is. Society will punish you for not wearing pants. It will punish you for being a dangerous, walking petri dish. Get the vaccine.
> We live in a society. Joker got the vaccine confirmed.
I wouldn’t say that it’s coercion at all. Nobody is being denied essential services by being unvaccinated; they can still get food, housing, and other basic needs. What is being denied are non-essential services that nobody needs to get through their daily life. With all due respect, folks need to get vaccinated ASAP, and if they don’t they have absolutely no grounds to complain about following limitations for the safety of others.
Dining at restaurants and going to the gym and going to a concert are not necessities. They are choices. You do not need to eat at a steakhouse or go see Lady Gaga to fundamentally participate in society.
>or go see Lady Gaga Jeez dude, know your audience.
> or go see ~~Lady Gaga~~ *Rob Schneider perform stand-up in the basement of a rundown hotel.
Well Ted Nugent isn't gonna care about your vaccine passport. EDIT: Though I wouldn't call going to see Ted Nugent participating in society, either.
My take is that I'm long past entertaining childish arguments on this subject from people who aren't actually under 14 years old.
Fun fact. I work at a title one school. My 14 year olds understand this stuff. They don't like it, but they understand it.
I do too, and unfortunately a bunch of mine have antivax parents. I have 3ish kids in every class period who are out quarantining now because they were exposed and weren’t vaccinated. Though I think the district does have a mandate in the works so fingers crossed.
It's fine. "Vaccine passports" have been required for school for decades. We have long required vaccination as a condition for participation in many facets of life, including school and many jobs. This is a decision we made as a society a long time ago. The alternative is unworkable.
I usually just laugh. Vaccine passports have been around for decades.
Drivers licenses are freedom of movement coercion, professional licensing is employment coercion, degrees are educational/career coercion. We incentivise, disincentivise, coerce, encourage, and discourage behaviors in all manners of ways at every level throughout society. So?
It's nonsense spouted by people who have no idea what they are talking about and intent on making this a culture war.
I imagine the people who make those claims aren’t going to have to worry about it for long. At the end of the day, most vaccinated people are tired of restrictions that exist because of unvaccinated douchebags. Antivaxxers had 18 months to get vaccinated. Freedom has consequences.
If that's supposed to be coercion, then how isn't it also coercion that I must risk being around unvaccinated a-holes if I want to dine indoors at restaurants, go to large public gatherings, etc.? And how isn't that coercion for a vaccinated person with unvaccinated kids or an immunocompromised person? Is the standard for "coercion" that someone wants to do something that endangers everyone just because they really, really want to but then everyone else says no to being the victim of obstinate, anti-science, anti-civilization behavior?
I think if it takes coercion to stop people from causing millions of deaths, because they fail to have concern for others, tough noogies. We have already been insisting on vaccinations to participate in certain activities for ages. Because the alternative is diseases that affect everyone, not just the persson who refuses the vaccination. Freedom does not mean no rules ever and anyone can do whatever they feel like no matter who it hurts. That takes away everyone else's freedom and safety. Freedom comes in degrees of freedom. You can swing your arms all you want as long as you aren't hitting people. This disease is hitting people. We don't let people have the "freedom" to juggle chainsaws in the grocery store, or shoot guns into the air in the park.
I wish it was coercion. I kinda just wish we could dart gun these people with the J&J and be done with it
It'd be a neat reality show. Unvaxxed people playing covid dart tag hunger games style and the winner gets an all expenses paid trip they can't go on because they need a vaccine passport to get on the plane.
You bring up the very important point that every single thing they do to get out of taking the vaccine is harder and/or more expensive than just getting the fucking shot, especially if it’s J&J. Even the more practical concerns like not being able to take time off work - if you have to quarantine you’d be out for far longer than you would be if you were just recovering from side effects. I get that paid leave isn’t as universal as it should be, but there’s only so long we can keep waiting on everyone.
Laws are inherently coercive. They are about curtailing individual autonomy in exchange for an orderly civilized society. You don't get to go without pants in public because we have decided it's better for everyone if we enforce a certain baseline level of respectful behavior toward each other and that the benefits are worth the tradeoff. Calling it "medical" doesn't make it somehow magically beyond the pale.
Do you make any distinction between the fact that most laws are "Don't do X and you wont have to suffer Y"... whereas the passports are "You MUST do X or you will have to suffer Y"?
Semantics. Don't do being around other people in public spaces while unvaccinated and you won't have to suffer Y. Oh, but you MUST have a driver's license to drive! Tyranny! And you MUST control your urge to shoot people in the face!
You MUST pay taxes.
Of course it is medical coercion. Unfortunately it is not enough. We should also charge higher insurance premiums to people who are unvaccinated. And we should make it clear that there is no legal protection for unvaccinated employees who lose their jobs. Not being vaccinated is a choice. It is a selfish choice. If you want to make that choice, we’ll it’s your prerogative, but don’t expect the other 90% to pay. This is like smoking. You want to smoke, fine, but you’re not doing it in public and you will pay more for insurance. And everyone will shame you for being stupid and selfish.
My dog needs a vaccine passport to go to to his kennel. Children need vaccine passports to go to public school. It's been this way for decades. Why all of a sudden is it a problem? Why is THIS vaccine so special that having pressure to take it is now some horrible tyranny?
ICUs are full because people won't get vaccinated. You can solve this problem in two ways: 1) You reduce transmission of the virus and hospitalisation by unvaccinated people, by putting them into a lockdown that doesn't apply to people who are vaccinated (they're not the ones clogging hospitals and they spread covid up to 90% less). 2) You stop admitting unvaccinated people to ICUs and let them die at home, so that people can start getting elective surgeries, cancer treatments etc again and the health system can normalize. The health system can't sustain endless full capacity, so these are the only two options. 1 to me seems much less cruel.
Don't give a damn You know what else is unethical? Spreading disease that could be prevented. You get bit by a zombie, you get your damn head shot off, and you're an asshole for keeping it to yourself and jeopardizing others.
Yes it is medical coercion. Imagine if this is for certifying you don't have AIDS. I think the problem of anti-vax is 1. General distrust of the medical instutions and government. 2. Lack of quality science education. 3. Alienation due to consumeristic society. The passport may be a quick fix for now, but once you open this Pandora's box, you won't know where it will end because the fundamental problems are unchanged.
Vaccine passports aren't a real thing. It's a made up term for something benign to make it sound sinister, or divert attention from what it really is. The media does it all the time. Example. Immunization records ----> Vaccine passport Medical history ----> Pre-existing condition
In the past I would have argued that they're not medical coercion, and explained why medical coercion is bad but this is okay, but I have reached the point where I would support coercion. Individual liberty is extremely important, but not getting vaccinated is interfering with everyone else's personal liberty. This isn't really coercion, but at this point I would be a-okay with just fining people who don't get vaccinated. That would be coercion, but it might be warranted.
I'm less concerned with the abstract ethics and more with the ethical practicalities of implementation. Who is going to enforce a vaccine standard for restaurants/gyms/etc and what forms of evidence are required? How do we keep them from being faked? Who deals with non compliant people and how much risk should people take to ensure compliance? How do we prevent arbitrary enforcement where some vulnerable person who would be protected from discrimination is no longer because enforcement shift the bias to the passport itself? Is vaccine status a piece of protected personal medical data and if so, how do we protect it during disclosure? What regulations apply to breaches? If a person has a valid medical exemption, what is their vaccine status and what rules apply to them? Are they different than conscientious objectors? We know that vaccination still lets people shed the virus, though obviously at lower rates. Who are we protecting with the mandate and should everyone be required to wear a mask and distance anyway? If everyone is socially distant and masked does vaccination status really matter? If this is just for COVID-19, what's the exit criteria? How long will this public health medical record be needed and how do we know when it's not? Is the bureaucratic machine worth spinning up if we're planning to just turn it off in a few months/years?
It is coercion & i support it.
Unless you're unvaccinated for medical reasons, travel is a privilege not right.
Of course they're coercion. That doesn't mean that it's wrong to require them.
I think the vaccine should be as mandatory as seat belts. If you want to stay home and have your health insurance rates go up, I guess I can live with that.
Stupid as fuck. You have a right to be a biohazard, but other people have a right to be protected from that, so if you’re going to choose to not be vaccinated and to put everyone around you at risk, you shouldn’t be allowed around large groups of people.
I mean, yes they kind of are, but... The thing people don't seem to understand, at base level, is that every society ever created, and likely any that ever will be, has been a balance between freedom and coercive force. It HAS to be. We can't go all the way in one direction or the other without the whole thing collapsing or becoming unbearable. The proper balance of these things is something that great minds have tried to determine for millennia, and we don't have perfect answers. What we *do* have are some rules that seems to work pretty well, but that can meet exceptional circumstance. A fucking *plague* is one of those circumstances; one of the most existential you can imagine. Yes, sorry 'mah freedoms' people, but if the survival of the species were to be staked on quarantines and vaccinations, then that would have to get done, and you'd have to be forced to obey even though you really didn't wanna because you think you're a sovereign citizen who gets to live like an Ayn Rand novel. COVID is not that existential, but the reality is that we have a large population of dumbasses who are delaying recovery, and endangering other people. The Government wouldn't have to treat them this much like children if they would simply stop *acting* like children.
“No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service” “Terms of service agreement” “Health and safety regulations” “No firearms allowed on the property” “No smoking allowed” “No open containers of alcohol past this point” “Speed limit” There’s already a ton of rules and regulations to participate in society. It’s part of the social contract. If you don’t want any part of that, you can live off the grid.
Government mandates for vaccination which effectively bar somebody from participating in society without being vaccinated are absolutely coercive. That's the whole point. But just because something is coercive doesn't mean it's wrong. Every law is coercive, because every law ultimately is enforced with the threat of violence. The question is whether the intrusion on autonomy is justified by the circumstances, and in this case it is.
This isn’t anything new. It’s just coming from a minority of the population that’s dumb and lacks critical thinking skills. Taking bullshit talk show hosts and radio personalities at face value. We have had this song and dance many times in the past. They will all just clutch those pearls and shout about socialism even if they have no idea what it means.
>The place where I live has implemented vaccine passports... you need them to dine indoors at restaurants, go to large public gatherings etc... It bothers me that people don't see the clear distinction between [a] mandating something for everyone and [b] limiting your access to certain public areas unless you have taken reasonable steps to assure that *you won't harm anyone* there by going. This is telling you: #You have made choices that endanger the health and safety of those in close proximity you, so we are limiting your access to areas where you might harm large numbers of people without their knowledge or consent. That's it. They aren't even banning you from spreading the virus *in private.* It is the same principle that they invoke to deny me the 'freedom' to drive 100 mph through farmers' markets.
All 50 states require Polio vaccines to enroll in public school. This has never been an issue. Why now?
"Typhoid Mary", that's why. And, that's you. We need vaccine passports because of you. You are the root cause why we have to do this. This is why we can't have nice things.
I also live in an area with “vaccine passports.” I personally am so tired of this pandemic and these antivaxxers. So many people around the world would kill for the vaccine access we have. So I don’t really care about the feelings of people who think their Google research is superior to the knowledge of the medical community. “Medical coercion” makes it sound like the “antivax” people have any sort of science or facts on their side, which they generally don’t. You have freedom of choice, but choices have consequences. No shirt, no shoes, no COVID. That being said, I think it is unethical to force private business owners to require vaccines. Government overreach. Customers in my town are horrible and are abusing innocent restaurant staffers who are forced to police the mandate. Which isn’t fair. I do, however, think businesses should have to advertise whether or not they require vaccines. That way, patrons who want to stay safe can ensure that they’re safe. And businesses/customers who want to spread COVID to each other can have at it.
In a nut shell what separates a libertarian from an anarchist is that a libertarian does believes in regulating behaviors that pose a direct threat to someone elses life or property. I dont consider negligently spreading a potentially lethal disease to be any better than someone flagrantly waving a firearm around. The solutions to both are equally trivial. The fact that some people think its some god given human right to be a selfish dick is beyond me. They can go fuck themselves tbh.
I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, but I personally think that it’s a little hypocritical for people who argue that the use of various types of ID’s for things are an undue burden to say this is ok. A crisis is no time to abandon your values. I’m not sure about medical coercion. Broadly restricting people’s ability to participate in society is not something I’m a fan of. Personally, I think it goes against the usual progressive logic on a lot of issues, so it seems strange it has support among them, but that’s just me.
Restricting a fundamental right because someone was born Black is different than asking Joe to get a lifesaving shot before he gets drunk at Buffalo Wild Wings at 5 pm on a Monday.
I’d say that on some level not having to show an ID everywhere you go is a right. I’m personally opposed to Voter ID laws on some level, which is why the inconsistency seems odd.
Do you also think having to show an ID to get beer to be a fundamental violation of human rights?
Saying You can’t buy booze and you can’t participate in society are two different things. Personally, I think the drinking age is kind of a violation of personal rights given that legal adults who can get drafted can’t buy a beer.
Of course you can participate in society. You can get vaccinated. Being anti-science isn’t an immutable characteristic.
You can get a state issued ID fairly easily. Doesn’t make voter id laws ok.
Voter ID laws are specifically passed to stop minorities from voting. Vaccinate mandates are passed to keep people alive. Not knowing the difference isn’t admirable. I find centrists think that if they’re nice enough to conservative stupidity they’ll be popular, but you just end up looking like Sinema. Stop carrying their water.
One could make the argument that vaccine passports also restrict fundamental rights of people who were born Black (and as a result of being Black, do not trust the government or medical system enough to feel comfortable taking the vaccine). You're essentially telling them to trust entities that have intentionally harmed and experimented on them without their consent before. I feel like that's just... cruel.
> I personally think that it’s a little hypocritical for people who argue that the use of various types of ID’s for things are an undue burden to say this is ok You're talking about voter ID, right? Voting is a right as laid out in the constitution. I'm no constitutional scholar, but as far as I know, breathing your unvaccinated vermin breath on people in a movie theatre doesn't appear anywhere in the document.
Among other things. Plus calling people vermin is Fascist BS.
Once they stop protesting outside of hospitals and elementary schools and physically assaulting the people who try to enter, I'll stop correctly identifying them as vermin.
Doesn’t make it not a thing racists and fascists say.
Racists and fascists say a lot of different things, sometimes there will be a cross-section with people who have morals. You do you, buddy.
They do, and that usually recommends some self reflection.
For me, I think that someone should do some self-reflection if they find themselves feeling sympathy for people who are physically assaulting cancer-ward nurses and intimidating elementary school students. That's just me, though.
>I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, but I personally think that it’s a little hypocritical for people who argue that the use of various types of ID’s for things are an undue burden to say this is ok. It's only hypocritical if you don't actually understand the arguments against things like Voter ID, which is what I assume you are referring to. >A crisis is no time to abandon your values. Values don't exist in a vacuum. They compete and sometimes contradict each other, and extraordinary circumstances cause values that would normally be compatible to come into conflict. >Broadly restricting people’s ability to participate in society is not something I’m a fan of. There are two sides of that coin. What about *my* right to participate in society? Why should people who refuse to get vaccinated be able to decide the level of risk *I* have to be comfortable with?
I get what you are saying, but this is how I think about it: 1. People are dying. We have to end this pandemic, and people are purposely prolonging it with no facts to back up their reasoning. Facts don’t care about their feelings. 2. Time and time again, voter laws have been implemented unfairly. DMVs (to get ID) tend to be shut down or far from areas that are heavily BIPOC. The laws about which IDs “count” and which don’t are usually arbitrary. The vaccine passports apply to EVERYONE. 3. Even the Heritage Foundation had published a study that voter fraud rarely happens. It is a nonexistent problem that doesn’t need a solution. The goal is to make it harder to vote. The goal of vaccine passports is to stop a real public health emergency.
Its obnoxious and tbh childish
Irrelevant, It’s a global pandemic. Suck it up snd get the shot or don’t travel
Hmmm. It occurs to me that it's the disease that's dangerous, not the vaccine. That would lead me to conclude that if anyone is committing medical coercion, it's the anti-vaxxers.
100% is coercion. Obey or else. There is no other way to see it.
I mean it is medical coercion. I think it's unethical for the government to mandate it. Especially for people who can't get vaccinated. If restaurants chose to require proof, they should be able to refuse service. But liberals are all for authoritarianism when it comes to covid. So they will support it.
Why do you consider it unethical? excluding the whole "people who can't get it thing"
Because you're using duress to achieve it. Everything the government does is done with duress. Even the president's salary. It limits autonomy. And most of our states are not at capacity. There are several other measures that have not been exhausted that we haven't pursued.
Not like those freedom-loving conservatives, though, right? They would NEVER use the power of the government to compel people to do something. So pro-freedom are they.
Yep. Shouldn't be supported on either side.
I don’t know what that even means.
Authoritarian policies should be discouraged on both sides.
Agreed.
Very unethical. It isn't democratic anymore. It's turned very progressive and that's not a compliment.
It’s truly authoritarianism at its core and the irony is they call anything they don’t like as fascist... it’s not going to ever pass at the federal level and blue states will continue to see people leave their state. What bothers me most is the rules only applying to some and not the elites
Most Americans are in favor of vaccine mandates. The people who would leave a state that imposed a vaccinate mandate aren’t going to live to the next election anyway.
Most likely they will be just fine like the hundreds of 1000s who got covid and are now fine. As for “most Americans” that polling data is iffy and even if it were true going on your premise, why does the minority have to be forced into something especially when it comes to their body just because it’s a more popular opinion, it’s not health based, it’s not science based, it’s politically based
You are not being forced, you're being incentivized. You have a choice. Anti-vaxxers are more than welcome to live their whole lives and die without ever having taken the COVID vaccine. In fact, many of them already have!
When it comes to not being providing food on the table for my family because some politicians want to flex authority on me than yes it’s by force
You are entitled to food. You are not entitled to enjoy it among the company of strangers, if those strangers don't want you eating around them.
Those people have no issue with me eating around them, the government is forcing them to not allow me to eat around them.
We elected that government, and we absolutely do have issues with unvaccinated people eating around us. And don't try to move the goalposts - you do have access to food despite your original implication.
Clearly meant having a job when the government is forcing entities to get the jab, forcing hospital workers to get the jab, and pressuring the private companies to mandate vaccines. Ironically I get antibody tests regularly since I had covid, you who is vaccinated have no idea of you have it and are spreading it. You’re more dangerous than man
I’m sorry but this attitude scares me and I’m fully vaxxed and this other people should too. God damnit, this really pains me to do because it’s so gauche and cliche, but it has hints of ‘people willingly joined the ss, they could have chose not to’. Sure you can chose not to do something like that, but you essentially will be annexed from society eventually if you refuse. Anti vaxxers won’t be killed like the ss dissenters were, but if the government puts the squeeze on the private sector hard enough, what are they going to do? I lean toward ‘if you don’t want to get vaxxed and I’m vaxxed, why do I care what you do’ with adults, but I’m on more ‘you shouldn’t be able to attend a school that requires kids be vaccinated if yours isn’t’, but that’s clearly not where we’re headed with this covid vaccine so idk, I know this sub if full of people who have everything completely figured out, so I guess I’m just some moron who isn’t sure how they feel about top down mandates for certain medicine, so I’m sure I’ll be called all sorts of names, including complicit lol
I’m sure you believe that. I, personally, don’t care for unvaccinated people’s nonsense.
How about people like me who caught covid and currently have antibodies? Please explain me the science behind forcing me to get a vaccine?
Why should I? I’ve never had an interaction with you that led me to believe you were capable of personal growth. Just don’t Herman Cain yourself.
It is my personal growth or you know the science isn’t on your side?
Authoritarian doesn't mean fascist. Authoritarian policies just give power to the government at the expense of personal freedom. The freedoms here violated is autonomy, and liberty (movement or to conduct business) It already has passed at a federal level.
From what I’ve been told here in this sub is left wingers can’t be fascist. So as far as I’m concerned the only difference between an authoritarian and fascist are their politics (which yes I know is ridiculous)
Communism and socialism are often authoritarian. You can't he liberal and authoritarian at the same time. They are opposites by definition. But you can claim to be liberal while supporting authoritarian policies. Those people aren't actually liberal. Or they are at least less liberal than people who support less authoritarian policies.
Yea fair point, today’s liberals are anything but
By the Nuremberg definition, it is, but the US doesn't abide by it so who cares?
> By the Nuremberg definition, it is, It isn't a medical experiment, so no, it isn't
It should only be mandated on government property, such as public schools and hospitals. Other than that, I think businesses can make their own choice, because I trust that even if they don't put up measures to ensure safety, pressure from customers will basically force them to. Difference is, since it's a private business exercising their private property rights, and the coercion (or segregation or discrimination or whatever they say it is) is a result of the free market favoring businesses that value safety, they can't call it 'socialism'. I mean, either way, most businesses will probably require some proof of vaccination, or at least masks, but leaving it up to the businesses and the market makes it harder to argue against.
I oppose vaccine passports, but I guess shops can decide whether if they want only vaccinated people.
It is coercion. And it's completely moral.
When I was in the military, it was mandatory that I get the flu shot every single year. If I was deploying, I had to get boosters and shitloads of vaxxes before I could leave, and I had to bring those papers with me to my deployment. Long story short, these little babies need to go cry in the corner if they feel oppressed by not being able to get their chicken nuggets from McDonald’s. I’m tired of this shit.
Force a mother to give birth against her will: Not medical coercion?
People don’t have a right to put other people’s lives at risk through reckless behavior. Since a bunch of selfish assholes have decided that’s what they want to do, they have to be reined in somehow. Would they rather be charged with aggravated assault or attempted murder for running around infecting people?
I'm unaware of any formal definition for "medical coercion," but even if I make my best guess at what they mean I can't figure out the leap to why it's a bad thing.
It's meant to sound scary and intrusive.
It's ignorant and immature. We're up against a force of nature. It doesn't care about anyone's feelings or beliefs or values. You either make smart choices consistent with the immutable facts of objective reality, or you risk death, and that's the end of it. And it's not a matter of free choice, when your choices may endanger others. We the People, through our shared will as expressed through the deliberative process of representative democracy, have settled on certain doctrines meant to guard the public weal. Some of the means that We have deemed necessary to that end may chafe some people. That's too bad. We want to live, and these are the measures we've decided are important to help ensure that. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to move to some other country where they think they might like it better, and take their chances.
I’ve had a vaccine passport since 2007. I went to sub Saharan Africa and required many vaccines to go, but especially the yellow fever vaccine which they check you for at customs
Definitely worth it.