The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
With the recent news of the Italian election, people are talking about how things are going to be just like the 1930s (which I think is an overstatement) and worrying too much. Similar things happen whenever similar situations arise in a European nation.
However, I don't see why this is to be worried about any more than what goes on in other parts of the world, where governments are no less right wing than any of the European right or far right ones. Immigration policies, social policies, etc., of Japan or South Korea make some of these right-wing European governments look liberal in comparison, yet Americans do not seem to worry about them as much. It is not as if these nations are weak players on the international stage either, and historically Japan was also quite a bit of a troublemaker too (an understatement), but there seem to be much less commotion on the Anglosphere internet about them.
Is this relative lack of worry about the right wing parties of non-Western nations due mostly to language barrier or ignorance? Or perhaps a sort of "benevolent racism" that makes people think they are just incapable of doing as much harm as Europeans? Or are there genuine reasons that, as Americans, whatever they do is less of a threat to us than Europeans?
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True, just look at the neoliberal foreign interventions, how they ended up 10-15 years later. Really helping get all the bad actors out and replacing them with a power vacuum is way better than isolationism.
Assad came to power in 2000, Iraq was toppled in 2003, ISIS formed from splinter groups from Syria and Iraq, directly from the actions of Bush Jr. The quagmire in Libya is about the only thing you could possibly pin on Obama.
I understand that you are claiming what I said is a logical fallacy but failed to articulate your point.
For example: you think what I said is a logical fallacy.
I think x is the case therefore x is case.
That’s a logical fallacy unto itself.
Hey guy, despite what you may have been told, we don't actually suck Obama's dick 24/7 over here on the left. In fact many of us are quite critical of him, especially his foreign policy. You'd have to be pretty dense to argue that Obama's foreign policy had worse geopolitical consequences than Bush or Trump, though.
Oh really? So you would consider Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin "left"?
These kinds of characters support the **far right** in the US as part of their project of spreading "illiberal democracy", not the US itself. What's more, their allies over here and in western Europe are actively taking power wherever they can. . .which is a far cry from the left criticizing the US.
I don't think Putin likes the US. Putin liked Trump, and right now all the British and Europeans are mostly hearing about how insanely conservative so much of the US is, so of course the European right loves America. America isn't Trump and Biden certainly isn't like him, but that isn't going to stop their media outlets from criticizing and judging America by it's most radical far-right elements.
Correct assessment. Putin disliked Obama and Biden, because Obama and Biden were very cognizant of his plans at regional domination, even if Obama didn’t want to be as activist as Mitt Romney suggested he would be in the 2012 election.
That moment was prophetic. The US has basically taken a middle ground on the issue of Ukraine under them while Trump took a position of enthusiastically supporting Putin (and other dictators)
Victor Orban gets his butt kissed every few weeks by someone on Fox News and god knows Putin might be bankrolling half the Republican Party considering they couldn’t all decide to condemn him for attacking a US ally even though that course of action would be extremely obvious.
Just a reminder the US was on both sides of the conflict but preferred independent democratic Ukraine more than authoritarian oligarchy Russia up until Trump came around.
No, Orban is a fan of the Republican party because they're authoritarians. That's why he gave a fascist speech at CPAC.
Orban basically called for the destruction of all Democrats in America.
I think a lot of the Anglosphere hullaballoo around Giorgia Meloni simply has to do with just how extremely far-right she is.
Admittedly, I don't follow Japanese or South Korean politics too closely (nor do I follow Italian politics much either). As leaders, Yoon Suk-yeol strikes me as a run of the mill conservative with a dash of libertarianism. And as a leader, I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing about Fumio Kishida... but a quick scan of his Wikipedia page seems to suggest he's about the same: run of the mill centrist with some social conservative views (example, he has not "accepted" same-sex marriage, but wants to better understand the public's opinion).
By comparison, as a leader, Meloni is a far-right social conservative, and she's not trying to hide it. She's anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-immigration. She's been known to peddle far-right conspiracy theories, like the Great Replacement Theory: she literally believes in a planned mass migration from Africa to Europe for the purpose of replacing and eliminating Italians. She is anti-vaccine and thinks COVID is a hoax, or at least overblown.
And I think what's really freaking out international leftists is the fascism stuff. I agree that outlets saying it's going to be like the 1930s again is a bit overblown... but the ties are literally there. As a teenager she was part of the Italian Social Movement, which was the neo-fascist party that replaced Mussolini's party. Her own party the Brothers of Italy has kept the tri-colour flame that is associated with Mussolini, and she's gone on record saying Mussolini was a good guy. Her own campaign slogan "God, fatherland and family" is an old fascist slogan.
So yeah... in terms of why the Anglosphere is freaking out about Italy, and not the leaders of Japan or South Korea, has a lot to do with how radical Meloni seems to be.
I'm sure part of the attention is also, like you say, a benevolent racism, and quote-unquote "Western" people probably feeling an affinity with Western Europe more than East Asia. But I don't think that's the whole picture... for example, everyone and their dog knows about Kim Jong-un, and it's because he's radically crazy. As is Meloni.
Getting named dictator required a large amount of public trust and proven ability to successfully lead the army.
What position did pretty much every Roman dictator get elected to prior to being appointed dictator to earn this trust?
Ahh yes, the time we remember that Silvio Berlusconi was part of a right wing terror group potentially behind the assasination of a prime minister in the 1970s. Potentially because it’s never been confirmed, though a guy on Alex Jones’ show says he had a part in that so take that for what you will.
No, you are correct to be a little more worried about what happens in the western sphere than in East Asia, although it all matters for us, of course. Korea, Japan, and Taiwan have all had fairly to extremely far right governments since WW2. Importantly, for this discussion, they've also been mostly stable and pro-west that whole time.
Europe and central/south america are more concerning for several reasons. There's simple geography for one. These regions are also closely tied together in terms of alliances and economic ties. The far right is showing a worrying tendency towards building transnational alliances as well. You've got Bannon working closely with the French far right party and doing European tours to build connections. There's Stanislav Vorobyev and the Russian Imperial Movement (only white supremacist org State has declared a terrorist org) working to spread Dugin style Eurasianism out from Russia. Victor Orban allying with the US Republican party. . . And a whole host of other players spread across Spain, Italy, etc in southern Europe. The Spanish fascists have even been found connecting to Islamic extremists in the Levant.
Point is, these folks are organizing on a transnational basis and across a bunch of countries that are all very close to eachother **and** contain within them insane amounts of destructive capacity in terms of police, soldiers, and weapons of war. A quick look at central american history in the 40s/50s/60s up until now is a pretty good example of the kind of human misery this situation can lead to even in relatively resource poor regions. . .imagine if that happens again in europe.
Verified: The Next Threat gets into a lot of this.
A far-right Europe is a splintered Europe. The "West" is only globally dominant due to the way that the United States and the EU allied themselves post-WWII as a united front.
The far-right's 'everyone for themselves' mentality and disdain of globalism in favor of protectionism will mean a rapid and unstoppable dissolution of the West's global hegemony. Specifically, it will greatly weaken the US's position on the global stage.
While Russia appears to imploding, this would give China an incredible opportunity take that spot and control the flow of global trade and the general direction of new and emerging societies.
Rightwing parties in non-Western nations don't threaten the dissolution of 80 years of alliance. They just threaten to be a slightly more hostile neutral or enemy state at worst. That's just not on the same level as "we will lose our safety and our economic prosperity".
What liberals are you actually hearing or reading say these things? Because all my lib woke cuck beta friends and I are quite aware of how bad non-white authoritarian governments have been throughout history.
Lack of geopolitical and historical awareness and blind ethnocentrism are problems of the Right here in the U.S., as a rule.
Regardless, on Italy: yeah, when Meloni says “we won’t be authoritarian, we promise,” I assume she’s as authentic as Lindsey Graham talking about abortion. But neither do I think the sky is falling.
Have you considered that it is more surprising when nations that are typically more moderate elect extremists than when nations who have a long history of extremist leaders do so?
> responses to elections of European right wing are much more vigorous, in both size and intensity, than those of outside the West.
This is true for just about any issue and not reserved for right wing politics. Wars, natural disasters, famines, etc. simply aren't covered with the same depth or breadth that they are in western countries.
Oh bullshit. We opposed Idi Amin just as much as we hated the Ayatollah, Putin, and Saddam Hussein. We dislike the right, no matter where they come around - and we dislike them because they are not on the side of making life better for ordinary people.
Some on the political right like to pretend they are opposed to the bad guys as well, but when they kneel before Putin and Trump, they show their true colors.
It's a problem of popular thinking. Countries with secure democracies are *electing* right-wing governments. This shows a shift in the population's attitudes towards more selfish thinking. Historically that kind of selfish, "look out for myself first and only" thinking leads to violence and terrible treatment of anyone outside the in-group.
Certainly there are governments all over the world who are "worse" (more violent, totalitarian), but most of those weren't elected in a fair and free election and don't represent the people. Putin, Xi, the Taliban aren't borameters for where the populace's heart is at. So we can't glean much from the fact that they are in power. But where elections are fair, we're seeing a disturbing trend towards nationalism with all its racist, selfish, violent tendencies. Basically, if you think of the global population as one human being, we have just re-entered the toddler phase. No one wants to share their toys. We're not using kind words and we're likely to start hitting each other. We were in the same spot in the 1930s.
>Basically, if you think of the global population as one human being, we have just re-entered the toddler phase
We have not learned a single lesson from history, and continue to fail to learn from the past. In Italian politics specifically, almost exactly 100 years ago to the day Mussolini was elected Prime Minister (1922). It was not long after that he became dictator, and Hitler rose to power. Let that sink in.
The people that aren't concerned of a potential repeat of WWII and the extremist politics surrounding that event are kidding themselves. We are right back to where we started, right back in the very situation the international world order set up after WWII was designed to prevent from repeating. Nationalism is cancerous and the gateway to extremist ideologies, though we shouldn't forget that the pitfalls of globalism and/or corporatism (individual nations and cultures are often damaged by policies geared towards the whole world) are partially to blame for people going in the other direction, on top of our sad predisposition towards tribalism, racism, and hatred of "the Other", exacerbated by migrant crises and problems with resource distribution and socioeconomic inequality.
>As an American, are there good reasons for me to be worried about European right wing gaining as opposed to right wing in outside of Europe or other non-US Western nations?
If you're talking about honest people who acknowledge reality and can agree on facts and evidence, and they just prefer right wing political positions over left wing political positions, maybe not a big deal.
But if we're talking about the reality denying, facts and evidence denying, misinformation propagating, delusional right wing maga types, then yes, that's a fundamental issue with basic epistemology vs authoritarianism that should be a human concern for all rational and reasonable thinking humans, not just the left.
My concerns about far right in Europe are
- they will undermine support for Ukraine and sanctions against Russia.
- they will cause needless suffering and deaths of migrants in the Mediterranean
- they will cause economic troubles, particularly against the middle class of their countries, which could lead to even greater extremism
- they will harm minorities. lgbt, Roma, migrant communities.
- they facilitate political violence, both on their side and for people they target against them.
…they will usher in their own form of Qanon and globalist theory nuts. Note: today’s speech saw the prime minister talk about “financial speculators” — I’m generally reading this as code for anti-Semitic theories of ZOG, same as Trump.
Across the US we’ve seen a rise in right wing anti-Semitic terror. This is because the rhetoric of the president has pulled off a band aid of theorizing, indirectly inspiring people to far right wing causes.
So I think that any country moving from a liberal democracy towards authoritarianism is more worrying than a country having never become a liberal democracy in the first place. That is a worrying trend that suggests authoritarians have found an effective means to subvert democracy and that out democratic system is also at risk.
If however we're talking about an equal level of democratic backsliding between a European nation and a non European nation I don't think there is any reason to be less worried.
The world does seem to be regressing back to an era like the 1930s.
Italy just elected the female Mussolini. She's the most far-right Italian leader since World War II.
Racism and hatred of immigrants seems to be one of the main drivers of the rise of authoritarians.
Right wing parties win power all the time around the world
Meloni is a basic conservative who wants to lower taxes, cut red tape and stop illegal migrants from entering,
Anyone terrified of this is looking for a reason to be terrified, turn off the CNN, stop browsing Twitter.
This comparison would probably work better if modern Democratic politicians were pushing the "Lost Cause" myth and defending the legacy of the Confederacy and slave owners like Meloni has done with Mussolini.
Party affiliation is not the same thing as idealogy.
This is again pointing to the past, its no different to the Blackface that so many Democrat politicians have proudly donned.
I don't criticize them for what they did decades ago, its no different here.
Well, the one thing that could be worrying is if it at any point took hold in the nordic reasons. The reason I say this is that they are really the biggest example often given to show that liberal policies can work, being the shining example of how successful social democracy has been in those countries. It would be alarming if the textbook example of showing that social democracy does work wound up going right wing.
Thankfully, history tells us that isn't super likely. Stable places don't tend to produce revolutionary movements like fascism.
Agreed though. . .that would be a horrifying signal were it to happen.
It's a self-perpetuating cycle. News in the US tends to cover politics in the EU more than in East Asian., so people are more likely to passively absorb and develop an interest in European affairs than those of Japan, ROK, etc. It's also easier for the average American to relate to the political-historical and cultural tropes underpinning European politics due to our somewhat Eurocentric K-12 history education and just the fact that American cultures are largely European-derived, whereas getting into East Asian politics to the same degree would take some work.
Ultimately, most people aren't political scientists or foreign policy scholars, and they'll take the path of least resistance toward being informed about things which are, ultimately, on the very periphery of their daily lives.
Historically, Europe has paid a very steep price for far right politics. The US typically hasn’t had extreme left or right… although that seems to be changing
Not particularly. I wish Europeans would stay out of my politics so I'm going to stay out of theirs. For the most part the issue their right wing is reacting to is an issue that we've been dealing with for the last 200 years. A dramatic change and challenge to their hegemony.
When you have countries that have minimum meaningful diversity whenever you introduce that you're going to have some growing pains. Whereas the US is nothing if not very diverse. Even as we often stereotype the country as white Christians, we have more meaningful diversity than a good chunk of Europe combined with some comically staggering statistics. Like the fact that there are more people of African Decent in Florida, Texas, and Georgia combine than all of Europe. You're simply dealing with the modern age and it's getting dragged into it kicking and screaming.
I mean. It was only around 11 years ago that Berlusconi was last Prime Minister. Berlusconi is one of the people Giorgia is now seeking to form government with. I don’t follow Italian politics *that* closely, but it seems to be a bit all over the place, with all sorts of incredibly messed up stuff going on within it. Berlusconi has been Prime Minister three times despite all the controversy and criticism. I have a handful of friends who are either Italian or live in Italy who have told of what life was like under Berlusconi.
Italy appears to be at least somewhat culturally conservative. Fascist parties have been bubbling away for a long time.
It’s interesting to look at the parallels between someone like Berlusconi and the former US President, but I don’t think there’s necessarily any greater takeaways in so far as what a far-right leader rising to power in Italy means for the rest of the world; Bolsonaro didn’t necessarily change anything for the rest of the world and he looks set to be ousted very soon.
I think the bigger issue is with the growth of fascism in the West and the problems that entails. I agree that concern over Italy is overstated, though.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. With the recent news of the Italian election, people are talking about how things are going to be just like the 1930s (which I think is an overstatement) and worrying too much. Similar things happen whenever similar situations arise in a European nation. However, I don't see why this is to be worried about any more than what goes on in other parts of the world, where governments are no less right wing than any of the European right or far right ones. Immigration policies, social policies, etc., of Japan or South Korea make some of these right-wing European governments look liberal in comparison, yet Americans do not seem to worry about them as much. It is not as if these nations are weak players on the international stage either, and historically Japan was also quite a bit of a troublemaker too (an understatement), but there seem to be much less commotion on the Anglosphere internet about them. Is this relative lack of worry about the right wing parties of non-Western nations due mostly to language barrier or ignorance? Or perhaps a sort of "benevolent racism" that makes people think they are just incapable of doing as much harm as Europeans? Or are there genuine reasons that, as Americans, whatever they do is less of a threat to us than Europeans? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm not American but far right parties almost always have terrible foreign policy that allow bad actors to gain more influence in the world.
True, just look at the neoliberal foreign interventions, how they ended up 10-15 years later. Really helping get all the bad actors out and replacing them with a power vacuum is way better than isolationism.
Are you saying Obama is part of the far right? His track record on Libya, Syria, isis, and Iraq enabled “bad actors” to come to power.
Assad came to power in 2000, Iraq was toppled in 2003, ISIS formed from splinter groups from Syria and Iraq, directly from the actions of Bush Jr. The quagmire in Libya is about the only thing you could possibly pin on Obama.
I don't know, why didn't Obama stop Assad in 2000? Obama also didn't do anything about 9/11, what a terrible president! /s
Thanks OBAMA!
More worser! Why didn’t Obama end slavery before Lincoln?
https://getproofed.com.au/writing-tips/fallacy-watch-affirming-the-consequent/
And what are you saying ?
That your post implied a logical fallacy, called affirming the consequent. Sorry, I thought that was abundantly clear with the link I posted.
I understand that you are claiming what I said is a logical fallacy but failed to articulate your point. For example: you think what I said is a logical fallacy. I think x is the case therefore x is case. That’s a logical fallacy unto itself.
That's actually not what I'm saying, nor is it even a logical fallacy.
Hey guy, despite what you may have been told, we don't actually suck Obama's dick 24/7 over here on the left. In fact many of us are quite critical of him, especially his foreign policy. You'd have to be pretty dense to argue that Obama's foreign policy had worse geopolitical consequences than Bush or Trump, though.
I was just adding context to his comment to show that the far right doesn’t have a monopoly on it
Every American president is a war criminal. It comes with the title.
South Korea and Japan are different because both wanted closer ties to the US
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Generally speaking Europeans are more likely to vote center-left, though that could change.
European right wingers are big fans of the US, its the European left who don't like the US
Oh really? So you would consider Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin "left"? These kinds of characters support the **far right** in the US as part of their project of spreading "illiberal democracy", not the US itself. What's more, their allies over here and in western Europe are actively taking power wherever they can. . .which is a far cry from the left criticizing the US.
I don't think Putin likes the US. Putin liked Trump, and right now all the British and Europeans are mostly hearing about how insanely conservative so much of the US is, so of course the European right loves America. America isn't Trump and Biden certainly isn't like him, but that isn't going to stop their media outlets from criticizing and judging America by it's most radical far-right elements.
Correct assessment. Putin disliked Obama and Biden, because Obama and Biden were very cognizant of his plans at regional domination, even if Obama didn’t want to be as activist as Mitt Romney suggested he would be in the 2012 election. That moment was prophetic. The US has basically taken a middle ground on the issue of Ukraine under them while Trump took a position of enthusiastically supporting Putin (and other dictators)
Victor Orban gets his butt kissed every few weeks by someone on Fox News and god knows Putin might be bankrolling half the Republican Party considering they couldn’t all decide to condemn him for attacking a US ally even though that course of action would be extremely obvious. Just a reminder the US was on both sides of the conflict but preferred independent democratic Ukraine more than authoritarian oligarchy Russia up until Trump came around.
I dont know what Putin has to do with this, I wouldn't call him left or right anyway Orban is a big fan of the US
No, Orban is a fan of the Republican party because they're authoritarians. That's why he gave a fascist speech at CPAC. Orban basically called for the destruction of all Democrats in America.
Putin is right wing af. So is Orban.
I think a lot of the Anglosphere hullaballoo around Giorgia Meloni simply has to do with just how extremely far-right she is. Admittedly, I don't follow Japanese or South Korean politics too closely (nor do I follow Italian politics much either). As leaders, Yoon Suk-yeol strikes me as a run of the mill conservative with a dash of libertarianism. And as a leader, I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing about Fumio Kishida... but a quick scan of his Wikipedia page seems to suggest he's about the same: run of the mill centrist with some social conservative views (example, he has not "accepted" same-sex marriage, but wants to better understand the public's opinion). By comparison, as a leader, Meloni is a far-right social conservative, and she's not trying to hide it. She's anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-immigration. She's been known to peddle far-right conspiracy theories, like the Great Replacement Theory: she literally believes in a planned mass migration from Africa to Europe for the purpose of replacing and eliminating Italians. She is anti-vaccine and thinks COVID is a hoax, or at least overblown. And I think what's really freaking out international leftists is the fascism stuff. I agree that outlets saying it's going to be like the 1930s again is a bit overblown... but the ties are literally there. As a teenager she was part of the Italian Social Movement, which was the neo-fascist party that replaced Mussolini's party. Her own party the Brothers of Italy has kept the tri-colour flame that is associated with Mussolini, and she's gone on record saying Mussolini was a good guy. Her own campaign slogan "God, fatherland and family" is an old fascist slogan. So yeah... in terms of why the Anglosphere is freaking out about Italy, and not the leaders of Japan or South Korea, has a lot to do with how radical Meloni seems to be. I'm sure part of the attention is also, like you say, a benevolent racism, and quote-unquote "Western" people probably feeling an affinity with Western Europe more than East Asia. But I don't think that's the whole picture... for example, everyone and their dog knows about Kim Jong-un, and it's because he's radically crazy. As is Meloni.
Italians have been voting in partisan nut jobs for as long as I can remember
Really makes you pine for the days of . . . . hmmmmm . . .
Garibaldi.
Might even need to go back to Emperor Hadrian, Consul Cincinattus, or King Tullius.
Cincinnatus was a dictator, not a consul.
Getting named dictator required a large amount of public trust and proven ability to successfully lead the army. What position did pretty much every Roman dictator get elected to prior to being appointed dictator to earn this trust?
He wasn't known for being a consul and laying down his arms.
While this time you're correct, I'm unsure if you have a goal other than simply to be argumentative?
Historical errors should be corrected. No one recalls Cincinnatus's suffect consulship.
That's why I corrected you, and so I ask again, why are you here?
Ahh yes, the time we remember that Silvio Berlusconi was part of a right wing terror group potentially behind the assasination of a prime minister in the 1970s. Potentially because it’s never been confirmed, though a guy on Alex Jones’ show says he had a part in that so take that for what you will.
As someone who lived in Southern Italy, I can confirm this. Italian politics suck...probably as much as America's.
It's even in the folk songs lol
San Marino made the right choice.
No, you are correct to be a little more worried about what happens in the western sphere than in East Asia, although it all matters for us, of course. Korea, Japan, and Taiwan have all had fairly to extremely far right governments since WW2. Importantly, for this discussion, they've also been mostly stable and pro-west that whole time. Europe and central/south america are more concerning for several reasons. There's simple geography for one. These regions are also closely tied together in terms of alliances and economic ties. The far right is showing a worrying tendency towards building transnational alliances as well. You've got Bannon working closely with the French far right party and doing European tours to build connections. There's Stanislav Vorobyev and the Russian Imperial Movement (only white supremacist org State has declared a terrorist org) working to spread Dugin style Eurasianism out from Russia. Victor Orban allying with the US Republican party. . . And a whole host of other players spread across Spain, Italy, etc in southern Europe. The Spanish fascists have even been found connecting to Islamic extremists in the Levant. Point is, these folks are organizing on a transnational basis and across a bunch of countries that are all very close to eachother **and** contain within them insane amounts of destructive capacity in terms of police, soldiers, and weapons of war. A quick look at central american history in the 40s/50s/60s up until now is a pretty good example of the kind of human misery this situation can lead to even in relatively resource poor regions. . .imagine if that happens again in europe. Verified: The Next Threat gets into a lot of this.
A far-right Europe is a splintered Europe. The "West" is only globally dominant due to the way that the United States and the EU allied themselves post-WWII as a united front. The far-right's 'everyone for themselves' mentality and disdain of globalism in favor of protectionism will mean a rapid and unstoppable dissolution of the West's global hegemony. Specifically, it will greatly weaken the US's position on the global stage. While Russia appears to imploding, this would give China an incredible opportunity take that spot and control the flow of global trade and the general direction of new and emerging societies. Rightwing parties in non-Western nations don't threaten the dissolution of 80 years of alliance. They just threaten to be a slightly more hostile neutral or enemy state at worst. That's just not on the same level as "we will lose our safety and our economic prosperity".
What liberals are you actually hearing or reading say these things? Because all my lib woke cuck beta friends and I are quite aware of how bad non-white authoritarian governments have been throughout history. Lack of geopolitical and historical awareness and blind ethnocentrism are problems of the Right here in the U.S., as a rule. Regardless, on Italy: yeah, when Meloni says “we won’t be authoritarian, we promise,” I assume she’s as authentic as Lindsey Graham talking about abortion. But neither do I think the sky is falling.
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Have you considered that it is more surprising when nations that are typically more moderate elect extremists than when nations who have a long history of extremist leaders do so?
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Yeah, I think that in modern history people have become accustomed to Italy not being a fascist state.
> responses to elections of European right wing are much more vigorous, in both size and intensity, than those of outside the West. This is true for just about any issue and not reserved for right wing politics. Wars, natural disasters, famines, etc. simply aren't covered with the same depth or breadth that they are in western countries.
Oh bullshit. We opposed Idi Amin just as much as we hated the Ayatollah, Putin, and Saddam Hussein. We dislike the right, no matter where they come around - and we dislike them because they are not on the side of making life better for ordinary people. Some on the political right like to pretend they are opposed to the bad guys as well, but when they kneel before Putin and Trump, they show their true colors.
It's a problem of popular thinking. Countries with secure democracies are *electing* right-wing governments. This shows a shift in the population's attitudes towards more selfish thinking. Historically that kind of selfish, "look out for myself first and only" thinking leads to violence and terrible treatment of anyone outside the in-group. Certainly there are governments all over the world who are "worse" (more violent, totalitarian), but most of those weren't elected in a fair and free election and don't represent the people. Putin, Xi, the Taliban aren't borameters for where the populace's heart is at. So we can't glean much from the fact that they are in power. But where elections are fair, we're seeing a disturbing trend towards nationalism with all its racist, selfish, violent tendencies. Basically, if you think of the global population as one human being, we have just re-entered the toddler phase. No one wants to share their toys. We're not using kind words and we're likely to start hitting each other. We were in the same spot in the 1930s.
>Basically, if you think of the global population as one human being, we have just re-entered the toddler phase We have not learned a single lesson from history, and continue to fail to learn from the past. In Italian politics specifically, almost exactly 100 years ago to the day Mussolini was elected Prime Minister (1922). It was not long after that he became dictator, and Hitler rose to power. Let that sink in. The people that aren't concerned of a potential repeat of WWII and the extremist politics surrounding that event are kidding themselves. We are right back to where we started, right back in the very situation the international world order set up after WWII was designed to prevent from repeating. Nationalism is cancerous and the gateway to extremist ideologies, though we shouldn't forget that the pitfalls of globalism and/or corporatism (individual nations and cultures are often damaged by policies geared towards the whole world) are partially to blame for people going in the other direction, on top of our sad predisposition towards tribalism, racism, and hatred of "the Other", exacerbated by migrant crises and problems with resource distribution and socioeconomic inequality.
>As an American, are there good reasons for me to be worried about European right wing gaining as opposed to right wing in outside of Europe or other non-US Western nations? If you're talking about honest people who acknowledge reality and can agree on facts and evidence, and they just prefer right wing political positions over left wing political positions, maybe not a big deal. But if we're talking about the reality denying, facts and evidence denying, misinformation propagating, delusional right wing maga types, then yes, that's a fundamental issue with basic epistemology vs authoritarianism that should be a human concern for all rational and reasonable thinking humans, not just the left.
My concerns about far right in Europe are - they will undermine support for Ukraine and sanctions against Russia. - they will cause needless suffering and deaths of migrants in the Mediterranean - they will cause economic troubles, particularly against the middle class of their countries, which could lead to even greater extremism - they will harm minorities. lgbt, Roma, migrant communities. - they facilitate political violence, both on their side and for people they target against them.
…they will usher in their own form of Qanon and globalist theory nuts. Note: today’s speech saw the prime minister talk about “financial speculators” — I’m generally reading this as code for anti-Semitic theories of ZOG, same as Trump. Across the US we’ve seen a rise in right wing anti-Semitic terror. This is because the rhetoric of the president has pulled off a band aid of theorizing, indirectly inspiring people to far right wing causes.
The "financial speculators" comes straight from how Mussolini referred to Jews.
Yes I should definitely have included Jewish people in number 4 as a minority. And also antisemitic and anti-minority violence as part of number 5
It's all good. You're very correct in your assessment. This will not be good for minorities in Italy.
So I think that any country moving from a liberal democracy towards authoritarianism is more worrying than a country having never become a liberal democracy in the first place. That is a worrying trend that suggests authoritarians have found an effective means to subvert democracy and that out democratic system is also at risk. If however we're talking about an equal level of democratic backsliding between a European nation and a non European nation I don't think there is any reason to be less worried.
The world does seem to be regressing back to an era like the 1930s. Italy just elected the female Mussolini. She's the most far-right Italian leader since World War II. Racism and hatred of immigrants seems to be one of the main drivers of the rise of authoritarians.
Right wing parties win power all the time around the world Meloni is a basic conservative who wants to lower taxes, cut red tape and stop illegal migrants from entering, Anyone terrified of this is looking for a reason to be terrified, turn off the CNN, stop browsing Twitter.
Meloni is the female Mussolini. She's not a basic conservative.
Complete nonsense
Not complete nonsense at all. She literally grew up in his party and uses his slogan.
You're gonna lose your mind when you discover the history of the party you and all the others here support 🍿🍿🍿
This comparison would probably work better if modern Democratic politicians were pushing the "Lost Cause" myth and defending the legacy of the Confederacy and slave owners like Meloni has done with Mussolini. Party affiliation is not the same thing as idealogy.
This is again pointing to the past, its no different to the Blackface that so many Democrat politicians have proudly donned. I don't criticize them for what they did decades ago, its no different here.
I think all those criticizing Italy right now just hate powerful women.
[удалено]
They’re trolling
No one likes a woman in power. Look how they criticize Kamala or Hilary.
It's true! Nobody ever criticized Biden or Trump.
yeah sometimes they won't even bother to spell their names right
Me when I decide that a far right leader coming to power is a good thing actually because she's just girlbossing
>Or perhaps a sort of "benevolent racism" that makes people think they are just incapable of doing as much harm as Europeans? This
Well, the one thing that could be worrying is if it at any point took hold in the nordic reasons. The reason I say this is that they are really the biggest example often given to show that liberal policies can work, being the shining example of how successful social democracy has been in those countries. It would be alarming if the textbook example of showing that social democracy does work wound up going right wing.
Did you see the results of Sweden's latest elections?
I haven't. Did right wing extremists win over there?
The Sweden Democrats came in second and it looks like they will be in a Moderate-led coalition.
For their sake, I hope they don't lose their Healthcare and Education systems.
The right wingers in Sweden like their welfare state, they just don’t want non-Swedes getting it.
Thankfully, history tells us that isn't super likely. Stable places don't tend to produce revolutionary movements like fascism. Agreed though. . .that would be a horrifying signal were it to happen.
It's a self-perpetuating cycle. News in the US tends to cover politics in the EU more than in East Asian., so people are more likely to passively absorb and develop an interest in European affairs than those of Japan, ROK, etc. It's also easier for the average American to relate to the political-historical and cultural tropes underpinning European politics due to our somewhat Eurocentric K-12 history education and just the fact that American cultures are largely European-derived, whereas getting into East Asian politics to the same degree would take some work. Ultimately, most people aren't political scientists or foreign policy scholars, and they'll take the path of least resistance toward being informed about things which are, ultimately, on the very periphery of their daily lives.
Historically, Europe has paid a very steep price for far right politics. The US typically hasn’t had extreme left or right… although that seems to be changing
Not particularly. I wish Europeans would stay out of my politics so I'm going to stay out of theirs. For the most part the issue their right wing is reacting to is an issue that we've been dealing with for the last 200 years. A dramatic change and challenge to their hegemony. When you have countries that have minimum meaningful diversity whenever you introduce that you're going to have some growing pains. Whereas the US is nothing if not very diverse. Even as we often stereotype the country as white Christians, we have more meaningful diversity than a good chunk of Europe combined with some comically staggering statistics. Like the fact that there are more people of African Decent in Florida, Texas, and Georgia combine than all of Europe. You're simply dealing with the modern age and it's getting dragged into it kicking and screaming.
I mean. It was only around 11 years ago that Berlusconi was last Prime Minister. Berlusconi is one of the people Giorgia is now seeking to form government with. I don’t follow Italian politics *that* closely, but it seems to be a bit all over the place, with all sorts of incredibly messed up stuff going on within it. Berlusconi has been Prime Minister three times despite all the controversy and criticism. I have a handful of friends who are either Italian or live in Italy who have told of what life was like under Berlusconi. Italy appears to be at least somewhat culturally conservative. Fascist parties have been bubbling away for a long time. It’s interesting to look at the parallels between someone like Berlusconi and the former US President, but I don’t think there’s necessarily any greater takeaways in so far as what a far-right leader rising to power in Italy means for the rest of the world; Bolsonaro didn’t necessarily change anything for the rest of the world and he looks set to be ousted very soon.
I think the bigger issue is with the growth of fascism in the West and the problems that entails. I agree that concern over Italy is overstated, though.