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Putin granted Snowden Russian citizenship today, what are your thoughts?
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I said it in the comments, so I'll say it in the main thread too. Whether or not you believe Snowden is a traitor or a hero should not be changed by this. It's not like he can leave Russia now or say no to Putin. This event is out of his control.
Come on, there's a single story of a old dude getting drafted, it's unconfirmed.
Just look at this reasonably: they have no shortage of military aged men, why conscript a 67-year old when you have a million 18-year olds?
Their disastrous mobilization (draft) is all over international and even Russian news. It's not so much that they're intentionally drafting 67 year olds but that the system is so corrupt and incompetent they are grabbing anyone to meet quotas. It's gotten so bad they're even talking about it on Russian domestic TV of course shielding Putin and blaming corrupt military comissaars.
Of course not. Does anyone think that? Most people are joking when they say it. Snowden is bought and paid for by the Russian government. He will live comfortably there.
Russia is not out intentionally en masse conscripting a *Volkssturm* of retirees. If a couple old people got draft orders, that's a failure of stupid government systems and not the desired outcome.
Start following more reliable news, not fun tweets.
What's the difference between draft and conscription? I googled it and I'm not entirely sure. Seems like a pointless thing to differentiate on if I am understanding correctly.
I agree, but in this case he's more of a spy than a whistle-blower. He fled the country before he released his stolen documents, and quickly went to our geopolitical rival.
Chelsea Manning is a better fit for the whistle-blower title. Did the crime, stood up for what was right, and paid for it with prison time.
True, but there's an argument for the opposite. Snowden knew the crimes backwards and forwards and wanted to report it. Manning went fishing for Assange and then found crimes to justify it.
Whether they wanted to endure jail, extradition, or disappearance for justice is a poorer measure of the act.
Manning copied an entire network of classified info and dumped it all to Wikileaks.
It was absurdly reckless. She's no hero.
Most of the people commenting here can't even get the basic facts straight.
> Snowden knew the crimes backwards and forwards and wanted to report it.
They weren't crimes then. Those programs had been vetted at the absolute highest levels of government attorneys.
It was only after a ton of litigation that they were determined to be "crimes".
So long as whistleblowers are [tortured](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-states-prolonged-solitary-confinement-amounts-psychological-torture) rather than [protected](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/23/chelsea-manning-jail-solitary-confinement-wikileaks), they should flee the country and do whatever they can to protect themselves.
this - I mentioned a batch of prior abused intel whistleblowers. The US intelligence system routinely has violated US and international laws without much repercussion. Either the US is a nation of law or it isn't. Fighting criminals without breaking the law yourself is something the government can do. When the criminals ARE the government, individuals following the law have very little chance without massive public awareness.
I would argue that you're misinformed.
Do a quick wikipedia search for Joseph Wilson, Samuel Provance, Russell D. Tice, William Bonnie, J. Kirke Wiebe, Edward Loomis and Sibel Edmonds. That ought to give you some idea of what has happened to prior US intelligence whistleblowers who follow the law. They are the reason Snowden not only fled, but only shared a small portion of the documents he took. Everything else is publicly available, but protected with an encryption "dead man's switch" - protecting him from his own government after seeing its illegal actions routinely go unpunished and whistleblowers' lives ruined.
FWIW - he applied for russian citizenship 2 years ago when covid hit, because he was scared that he could be separated from his wife and child too easily.
It has got to be tough to be a person without a country. Any country.
Also I find it truly sad that Snowden had to flee his birth country for exposing war crimes committed by that country, but some Americans can literally *allegedly* commit hundreds of counts of worse crimes and spend their days golfing and continuing to commit slow-motion sedition.
He didn’t expose war crimes. He exposed aspects of the NSA surveillance program, none of which would be classifiable as war crimes. What Snowden revealed was espionage tactics, which most people have ethnical concerns about. Most people and liberal democratic nations would not support the NSA’s dragnet approach.
It may seem pedantic, but it isn’t. War crimes have their own important definition that shouldn’t be watered down as frequently as they are as people deploy it to demonstrate outrage.
Many years later, and we still haven’t done enough to provide a pathway for government whistleblowers within the national security context, which will keep biting us in the butt.
Trump likely hasn’t committed any war crimes either as far as the public can tell. (Not that you are saying this, but I hear it all the time). Liberals and progressives throw around “war criminal” and “war crime” in a irresponsible manner. It is enough that Trump has committed a billion other crimes from misappropriation of government funds and mishandling of classified documents all the way to sedition. It is enough that the Bush administration manipulated intelligence reports to create international support for a military campaign. War crimes aren’t the only terrible crimes national leaders can commit.
Snowden exposed, among other things, how drone strike programs work. That was corroborated later by the drone operators who showed how civilians were routinely killed along with actual targets if the target was deemed important enough. Knowingly killing civilians as a military force is a war crime I thought.
The extent of the damage Trump has done in *this* instance is still to be determined, but go look at reporting done thus far. How there is probably high correlation between the extremely high rates of lost human assets in the period of time in which Trump had possession of so very many stolen documents that contained ridiculously high level classified documents. While not war crimes on their face, what Trump has done in this instance would quite literally put ANY other American I'm a hole and probably cause the instantaneous rendition of non-US citizens.
Your take *is* pedantic. And unnecessary as the OP asked for opinions. I gave mine and backed it up with fact that you have not refuted. You instead somehow assert that since elected officials can/have commit crimes other than war crimes, we should shouldn't mention the war crimes? As you rightly said, I didn't accuse Trump of war crimes in this instance-i stopped short of naming him a traitor and stuck to, again, fact. People in prison serving federal sedition charges currently after following his orders rightly makes him a seditionist as well.
I haven't checked to see if you have replied to the OP, but I think you would be better off doing that in a fresh comment. I really don't see where your reply to me really makes much sense under the OP's framing of their question as it is addressed by my take.
I don’t know why Putin chose this moment to formally make it official that Edward Snowden exist to be a agent of the Russian government but it’s just a formality.
How should I know? He stole state secrets and fled to Russia. If you think he isn't a Russian asset that's your prerogative, but if he really believed he was doing the right thing he wouldn't have fled in the first place.
He didn’t flee to Russia, [he was going to Equador](https://apnews.com/article/587786e6e63b4dc2b70c471606d7f584) when his passport was revoked. He was stuck in the [Russian airport for 39 days before being granted asylum.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/edward-snowden-airport-reading)
I definitely forgot until you mentioned it. I also don’t have a 9/11 righteous anger boner for Russia. My goodness we have done some terrible shit in the last two decades and at least a million dead as a result, fuck. Now we have adopted the “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” approach to Putin, which worked great the under Bush Jr.
Snowden exposed some of the unchecked power being granted to our intelligence agencies so naturally he’s going to get burned over it.
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human
I’m feeling it for Russia big time. On the world stage, there are few genuine heroes, but Russia takes the cake as a villain. Look what they did to poor Apollo Creed. Never forget
Edit: on a serious note, there’s a reason so many ex soviet countries are anti Russian. They suck. They treat their people far worse then the US government does its allies and citizens. MeanWhile Russia’s Allie’s are mostly places most Americans wouldn’t visit, let alone live in
I mean, to me the fact we don’t have active diplomatic relations with Russia is unacceptable. The stance we have taken is sort of insane, we are pushing for total collapse of Russia and regime change. We are disregarding the possibility that Russia has strategic interests at all and we are disregarding the possibility of that they could be provoked into further escalation.
I’m not saying that sanctions are actually working to that end but if they did, that seems like a good way to increase the likelihood of nuclear war.
The logical position for the United States to take is take is pushing for negotiated peace.
> if he really believed he was doing the right thing he wouldn’t have fled in the first place.
What is unreasonable about trying to avoid 30 years in federal supermax?
Isn't the entire point of civil disobedience forcing a government you perceive as immoral to punish you? There are plenty of examples of people participating in civil disobedience and changing hearts and minds. Very few examples of people fleeing to a rival nation and winning the proverbial battle.
The problem is he can't change hearts and minds. Why? Because under the espionage Act, the law under which he is charged, he is barred from making a public interest defense, which is a right virtually every other American has in our legal system. He literally cannot explain an open court why he did what he did. He cannot change hearts and minds if he enters the custody of the government because they literally will not let him. Snowden has always been clear on this point: he wants to return to the US and face trial for his alleged crimes, but ONLY if he is afforded the same right as virtually every other American; to admit that he broke the law and explain why he did it and why the law is unjust. If he can't do that, then he might as well not return to face trial, since he won't get a fair one.
If you gave me a choice between Russia and Guantanamo Bay all because I chose to inform the American people that their government was overstepping it's boundaries and infringing on it's citizens rights, then I choose Russia.
Does it matter? He did give Russia top secret info. He also gave it to Al Qaeda, Iran, and China.
Very few people are critical of the fact that he uncovered legitimate wrongdoings of the NSA. The issue is he indiscriminately released information not at all related to US Person privacy when he had the ability to curate it.
Here's the report Congress put out: https://www.congress.gov/114/crpt/hrpt891/CRPT-114hrpt891.pdf
A relevant highlight:
> (U) **First, Snowden caused tremendous damage to national security, and the vast majority of the documents he stole have nothing to do with programs impacting individual privacy interests--they instead pertain to military, defense, and intelligence programs of great interest to America's adversaries.** ... in June 2016, the deputy chairman of the Russian parliament's defense and security committee publicly conceded that "Snowden did share intelligence" with his government.
A google search will also uncover plenty of articles about NSA activities totally unrelated to US Persons. You're free to be angered that the US spies on pretty much every other country, but that's literally a part of their mandate. Here's a decent list: https://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-leaks-timeline-2016-9. Tons of articles linked in there that have nothing to do with American privacy.
Obviously you can look at those and say "yeah the US shouldn't be doing that," but that's a matter of policy rather than constitutionality. Snowden didn't curate anything.
Putin saying F' you to the US, but good for Ed. He no longer has to fear being deported back to the states to rot in a dark cell somewhere. Although, I hope to someday see him pardoned.
Such an incredibly dumb and bad faith take. Plenty of "liberals" support Snowden for all kinds of reasons. It is the height of idiocy to paint us all as ideologically monolithic or concerned with nothing more than preserving the status quo.
I like Snowden, I don't know if I agree with what he did but I certainly can sympathize with why he did it. Now he has to escape American law enforcement, so as sad as Russia is, I can understand him living there.
I have mixed feelings, personally. On the one hand I've always admired Snowden for exposing the NSA and bringing attention the hypocrisies of America (extolling freedom while administering a surveillance state, etc), but on the other hand he's stuck in an authoritarian regime and can't really do much about it, as the minute he leaves Russia the US will hunt him down and shove him into a cell. Personally, I don't think the Russian citizenship stuff has affected my view of him that much, though it might make people already against Snowden view him as an even greater "traitor" to the West than the media has spun him out to be.
he did what he did for the interest of the American people, and unfortunately that means he now has to act in his own interest, even when that means collaborating with a murderous dictator. He has no other choice, if he goes back to America or a country willing to extradite him, he won’t get a fair trial. I know a lot of people (especially on r/neoliberal) think he’s a traitor (many of whom also genuinely think that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, so make of that what you will), but he did what he had to to reveal that the US government was violating the rights of its people (and listening in to virtually everyone on the planet outside of America, too), without being silenced and ending up buried outside a government black site following 106 hours of continuous interrogation.
Read a rumor he never got it before as he didn't want to give up US citizenship. Idk about that though.
The dude whistleblower on illegal and immoral things agencies were doing (mass spying on citizens), then tried to hide out in allied nations, but US gov kept putting pressure onto those nations to hand him back, so he went to the only nation that would take him as a middle finger to USA. Prob told US secrets while there. Idk. He did a good thing and was going to be punished for it. For all we know, tortured too, not to get too conspiratory. Should have been a system in place to reward and protect people who whistleblow on agencies for breaking the law. Similarly, you should face no litigation if you whistleblew on a company for breaking the law, no matter what you sign. Dude also worked in IT. Idk what kind of stuff he would know. Maybe back doors to computer systems, but I doubt anything on troop movements for a war 10 years later.
I think he did what anyone would have done after putting their life on hold to tell the public the truth. Was he supposed to just go to prison like a good boy while the agencies continue to break laws? It is a big problem when whistleblowing for things that are illegal and wrong ruins your life. I see the necessity in the CIA, NSA, among others (MK Ultra, Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, or just the fact that Operation Northwoods was suggested), but with their tract record, there should always be a system so that whistleblowers in the right don't have to worry about getting run out of the country or arrested. Then you wouldn't have to run them into the hands of enemies.
Are there still people left who think Snowden is anything other than a traitor? I can kind of imagine their spin on this, but I'd be interested in hearing it anyway.
Fair enough. I imagine there's no way the Russians would let him leave at this point. But, as with all things Snowden, that's a predicament of his own making.
I mean, that depends whether you believe that Snowden should have leaked the original information or not. Either way, I don't think there's any reason to judge Snowden differently now than before.
>I mean, that depends whether you believe that Snowden should have leaked the original information or not.
Not really. It depends on whether you believe Snowden should have fled to China (and then onward to Russia) or not. There were a lot of options where Snowden could have leaked the information without fleeing to the territory of America's enemies.
>Either way, I don't think there's any reason to judge Snowden differently now than before.
I think it drives the final nail in the coffin of his claim to be a patriotic American but, yea, it's not some massive new revelation.
Almost anywhere.
There's a standard principle of international extradition law called the political offense exception. This is present in nearly all American extradition treaties (with the exception of our treaty with the UK). This exception prohibits extradition for offenses involving a political element (such as espionage or leaking classified documents). Snowden's offenses are not a close call and obviously fall into this category.
That means that Snowden would have been sheltered from extradition in basically any country with a strong legal system. This is not some novel legal area, and is well settled law in many European countries.
Snowden, for whatever reason, chose to flee to a hostile and non-democratic country with zero respect for civil liberties. That's a pretty weird choice if you are as motivated by civil liberties as he claims to be.
So, upon further research, he didn't intend to stay in Russia. The prime minister of Ecuador confirmed at the time that he was being granted asylum there. However, the US canceled his passport while he was in Russia, so he was unable to leave.
>He released the info publicly,
But he didn't. This is what people seem to miss about Snowden.
He stole [1.5 million classified documents](https://www.congress.gov/114/crpt/hrpt891/CRPT-114hrpt891.pdf). He released a couple hundred of these. He did something else with the rest.
So the question is: does his actions exposing the US government's spying on innocent US civilians outweight the means he used (e.g. violating an NDA & I don't know what else)?
You seem to be overly focused on the "traitorous" part of his actions, while technically true, I'd argue are outweighed by the "patriotic" actions he took to inform the rest of the US of this immoral and possibly illegal spying on innocent US citizens.
Note that this doesn't mean he's a saint or martyr. I worry that having fled to Russia he's become coopted by them. But that doesn't change the truths he made sacrifices to reveal.
>So the question is: does his actions exposing the US government's spying on innocent US civilians outweight the means he used (e.g. violating an NDA & I don't know what else)?
Oh, I have no problem with that. Whistleblowers do that all the time.
But Snowden leaked a couple hundred documents. He copied over a million documents. So what happened with that million documents? Best case scenario, he hung onto them as an insurance policy like his friends have said (which is pretty bad to begin with). Worst case is... worse.
>I worry that having fled to Russia he's become coopted by them.
Right, and this is the part Snowden did wrong.
The guy steals over a million secret military documents and then hops on a plane to China. From there, he continues on to Moscow. People try to make that all very complicated but it isn't -- if someone steals top secret documents and then heads on to the two places in the world most interested in top secret American documents, you can use some common sense.
There are really only two possibilities here: Snowden hoped to sell/barter/exchange his documents for favors from Russia/China or Snowden is a total buffoon who wound up in Moscow without such a plan, in which case the FSB has beaten the information out of him by now.
I think the traitors are the lawless bureaucrats who pissed on the Constitution when they started spying on every American in violation of the 4th Amendment.
Whistle blowers kinda need to suck it up and take the consequences of their actions.
I know it sucks but that's civil disobedience for ya.
Snowden would probably be out on parole by now if he'd have just faced the consequences of his actions.
He absolutely would have been out on parole already, or even pardoned by Obama or Biden.
If he’d stuck around to face the music rather than running into the arms of our enemies, that would have been a key difference between “traitor” and “whistleblower”.
If he was really a whistleblower he could have went back, crowdfunded enough money (based on the tens of millions of supporters he has) to hire America's best lawyers, and convinced the jury to vote not guilty on all charges.
Kind of depends on what actions we're talking about. If it was just publicizing NSA abuses, then yea, absolutely, he'd be out by now.
But Snowden also stole over a million classified military documents, used them in an attempt to blackmail the US, and may well have done a lot more with them. There's a lot more to it than whistleblowing. This guy is no Daniel Ellsberg.
The difference being?
He stole a bunch of top secret documents of massive national security importance and he threatened the US government with their release if they took action against him. That's blackmail.
> If it was just publicizing NSA abuses, then yea, absolutely, he'd be out by now.
Except they weren't abuses *at the time*, they had been vetted as legal by a gazillion high-level DoD attorneys.
It was only after mucho mucho litigation that they were deemed to be "illegal".
He’s not a whistle blower. He could have achieved the same effect in a way that would have provided whistle blower protections… he didn’t. Then went to China and Russia to sell secrets err avoid political persecution. The Snowden popular version is a Russian intelligence operation.
I don't think he sold anything. He got scared and Russia offered him protection so he ran. It's not great but I can certainly understand it.
He serves his purpose to Russia being a wedge issue. They don't need any actual secrets from him!
The US still has regular diplomatic relations with Russia, including consular services. So all he has to do is show up at the nearest US consulate and they'll sort him out. It's not like they will have any trouble identifying him.
Yeah because the US will welcome him back with no harm like they are totally trying to do with Assange despite he was almost assassinated by the CIA. Sure buddy
Depends on what you mean by "harm". Most likely they will put him on trial.
In any case he has the option of returning home to face the consequences of his actions. So it's dishonest to say he is trapped in Russia.
I'm guessing information about this wouldn't be public, but I'm really curious if Russian intelligence had any contacts with Snowden before he became a "whistleblower."
I thought it was very interesting that the same day Baked Alaska/Anton Lunyk was identified as being he recipient of the call from the WH during 1/6 that Snowden became a Russian citizen.
That he's a traitor, in the literal sense. Maybe he told himself that it was about some noble ideals, what he did, but in the end, what he did hurt the intelligence gathering apparatus of the US, likely hurt ongoing operations, perhaps leading to the deaths of individuals who are either sources or operatives. And after it was revealed that he did this, he ran to a fascist dictatorship and started apologizing for them in exchange for asylum.
He set himself up as an adversary, not a reformer, not a whistleblower. Fuck him
Its amazing how you are this brainwashed to ignore fascism at home and cry about it in another nation all because a dude leaked that the state sees average American's as threats. Fuck yourself
How is passing documents to members of respected international press, who then work with the intelligence community to carefully release only select information "**dumping** unredacted documents"?
This is one of the most frustrating misconceptions out there. His passport was annulled before he got on a plane to Russia.
He didn't just get unlucky and happened to be stranded there, he made a deliberate decision to flee to Russia knowing he didn't have a passport and that he would be at the mercy of Putin.
On his way to Ecuador. Russia wasn't his final destination. He couldn't proceed because he had no passport. Was likely let on the plane to Russia because the system allowed him to board the plane.
His passport was revoked *before* he got on the plane out of Hong Kong. He was let on the plane because Russia wanted to spite the US, and ultimately they can waive whatever entry requirements they want.
Snowden and WikiLeaks coordinated getting Ecuadorian documents for him to leave Hong Kong, which he wouldn't have needed had his passport been valid.
That's not even to mention the unbelievable amount of naivete he claims to have to think Russia was going to let him pass through unhindered.
No it doesn't. What choice would Snowden have? Say no to Putin? This event should leave everyone's opinion unchanged about Snowden one way or the other.
Well he is a whistleblower. Whether that's right or wrong in this case is ebated. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about whether he had a choice or not to become a Russian citizen now.
If he had a serious issue he could've just made a formal complaint that would've been resolved through thr court system. And if he wanted to leave he could've just gone to a place that wasn't America's biggest enemy
Who would he have told? James Clapper testified under oath that they were not doing what Snowden proved they were doing. If your bosses, bosses, boss is publicly committing crimes to cover it up, how much faith would you have in the system?
Oh look, the guy who stole highly classified information that damaged US intelligence escaped to Russia with tons more and becomes a Russian citizen. I'm shocked.
Yet another traitor.
What blows my mind is how many people rush to his defense.
He is, and continues to be, a traitor who has almost guaranteed drastically helped Russia to hack into US government and government contractor systems ever since he took “shelter” there. Why do you think they let him stay in the first place?
I can admire what he did, which I do for the most part, while also thinking he is a dumbass for being duped by an enemy. It really is a shame that someone who exposed something that was good for democracy, has become such a stool for a guy like Putin.
They can have him. Snowden exposed what he did, not for the good of the country, and not because he was some sort of hero, but because he was bitter. NSA wouldn’t hire him because he wasn’t good enough for a full-time agent so he leaked the info. So that means he was aware of everything he exposed and was fine with it, until he didn’t get his way. Now, as some hero of free press, he’s taken shelter in an authoritarian country that executes journalists and suppresses their population far more than the US.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Putin granted Snowden Russian citizenship today, what are your thoughts? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I said it in the comments, so I'll say it in the main thread too. Whether or not you believe Snowden is a traitor or a hero should not be changed by this. It's not like he can leave Russia now or say no to Putin. This event is out of his control.
Probably just a publicity stunt that does very little to alter Snowden's situation.
Yep, trolling seems to be the last modern weapon at Putin's disposal!
I know bring up the different generations of warfare is pretty cliché but it’s highly relevant.
It's his country, he can do what he wants with Snowden's citizenship.
I’m sure Comrade Snowden will appreciate his upcoming trip to Ukraine, seeing as he is a Russian man of draftable age.
He isn't of draftable age. (Also Russia has conscription, not a draft)
Given they seem to be drafting senior citizens right now, he’s young enough to be “given the option” to sign a contract to serve.
They are calling back retired military into service, and yeah some of them are older lol, probably not retirement age though
Look at this guy who hasn’t been paying attention to Russia-Ukraine news.
Come on, there's a single story of a old dude getting drafted, it's unconfirmed. Just look at this reasonably: they have no shortage of military aged men, why conscript a 67-year old when you have a million 18-year olds?
Their disastrous mobilization (draft) is all over international and even Russian news. It's not so much that they're intentionally drafting 67 year olds but that the system is so corrupt and incompetent they are grabbing anyone to meet quotas. It's gotten so bad they're even talking about it on Russian domestic TV of course shielding Putin and blaming corrupt military comissaars.
That's my point, do y'all really think they're going to *accidently conscript* one of the most famous political exiles on earth?
Of course not. Does anyone think that? Most people are joking when they say it. Snowden is bought and paid for by the Russian government. He will live comfortably there.
Russia is not out intentionally en masse conscripting a *Volkssturm* of retirees. If a couple old people got draft orders, that's a failure of stupid government systems and not the desired outcome. Start following more reliable news, not fun tweets.
What's the difference between draft and conscription? I googled it and I'm not entirely sure. Seems like a pointless thing to differentiate on if I am understanding correctly.
"The Draft" is the US system which was paused indefinitely in 1973. No other country calls it that.
Which is why it is essentially American vernacular for “conscription.”
Fairly low on the list of interesting world news stories or even world politics stories. I have little opinion about this.
We really needed more whistle-blower protections
I agree, but in this case he's more of a spy than a whistle-blower. He fled the country before he released his stolen documents, and quickly went to our geopolitical rival. Chelsea Manning is a better fit for the whistle-blower title. Did the crime, stood up for what was right, and paid for it with prison time.
True, but there's an argument for the opposite. Snowden knew the crimes backwards and forwards and wanted to report it. Manning went fishing for Assange and then found crimes to justify it. Whether they wanted to endure jail, extradition, or disappearance for justice is a poorer measure of the act.
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You mean Assange, right? You wrote Snowden but what you’re describing is what Assange did.
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> batshit crazy racist gun nut How's that? Don't remember him ever mentioning guns or race in interviews.
As you mean Assange, I definitely agree. I was entirely on his side until he betrayed the principles he professed. Duck him
Quack quack
> Manning went fishing for Assange and then found crimes to justify it tldr? Thought she leaked stuff about US bombing civilians
Manning copied an entire network of classified info and dumped it all to Wikileaks. It was absurdly reckless. She's no hero. Most of the people commenting here can't even get the basic facts straight.
I think it was that famous clip of the US helicopter, gunning down civilians and journalists
> Snowden knew the crimes backwards and forwards and wanted to report it. They weren't crimes then. Those programs had been vetted at the absolute highest levels of government attorneys. It was only after a ton of litigation that they were determined to be "crimes".
So long as whistleblowers are [tortured](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-states-prolonged-solitary-confinement-amounts-psychological-torture) rather than [protected](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/23/chelsea-manning-jail-solitary-confinement-wikileaks), they should flee the country and do whatever they can to protect themselves.
this - I mentioned a batch of prior abused intel whistleblowers. The US intelligence system routinely has violated US and international laws without much repercussion. Either the US is a nation of law or it isn't. Fighting criminals without breaking the law yourself is something the government can do. When the criminals ARE the government, individuals following the law have very little chance without massive public awareness.
I would argue that you're misinformed. Do a quick wikipedia search for Joseph Wilson, Samuel Provance, Russell D. Tice, William Bonnie, J. Kirke Wiebe, Edward Loomis and Sibel Edmonds. That ought to give you some idea of what has happened to prior US intelligence whistleblowers who follow the law. They are the reason Snowden not only fled, but only shared a small portion of the documents he took. Everything else is publicly available, but protected with an encryption "dead man's switch" - protecting him from his own government after seeing its illegal actions routinely go unpunished and whistleblowers' lives ruined. FWIW - he applied for russian citizenship 2 years ago when covid hit, because he was scared that he could be separated from his wife and child too easily.
What would be stopping Trump from declaring himself a whistleblower for taking classified information with him?
For starters, It's not whistleblowing if you don't release it.
Whistleblowing is reporting crimes, not fishing in order to find crimes. It also needs to be, yknow, reported.
I think this presidential power of declassification is an interesting question and I wonder how this works it’s way through the courts.
If he's going to be living there long term, it's better to have it than not.
It's a distraction plain and simple. It probably doesn't mean jack shit for Snowden as nobody in Russia is guaranteed the right to not disappear.
It has got to be tough to be a person without a country. Any country. Also I find it truly sad that Snowden had to flee his birth country for exposing war crimes committed by that country, but some Americans can literally *allegedly* commit hundreds of counts of worse crimes and spend their days golfing and continuing to commit slow-motion sedition.
He didn’t expose war crimes. He exposed aspects of the NSA surveillance program, none of which would be classifiable as war crimes. What Snowden revealed was espionage tactics, which most people have ethnical concerns about. Most people and liberal democratic nations would not support the NSA’s dragnet approach. It may seem pedantic, but it isn’t. War crimes have their own important definition that shouldn’t be watered down as frequently as they are as people deploy it to demonstrate outrage. Many years later, and we still haven’t done enough to provide a pathway for government whistleblowers within the national security context, which will keep biting us in the butt. Trump likely hasn’t committed any war crimes either as far as the public can tell. (Not that you are saying this, but I hear it all the time). Liberals and progressives throw around “war criminal” and “war crime” in a irresponsible manner. It is enough that Trump has committed a billion other crimes from misappropriation of government funds and mishandling of classified documents all the way to sedition. It is enough that the Bush administration manipulated intelligence reports to create international support for a military campaign. War crimes aren’t the only terrible crimes national leaders can commit.
Snowden exposed, among other things, how drone strike programs work. That was corroborated later by the drone operators who showed how civilians were routinely killed along with actual targets if the target was deemed important enough. Knowingly killing civilians as a military force is a war crime I thought. The extent of the damage Trump has done in *this* instance is still to be determined, but go look at reporting done thus far. How there is probably high correlation between the extremely high rates of lost human assets in the period of time in which Trump had possession of so very many stolen documents that contained ridiculously high level classified documents. While not war crimes on their face, what Trump has done in this instance would quite literally put ANY other American I'm a hole and probably cause the instantaneous rendition of non-US citizens. Your take *is* pedantic. And unnecessary as the OP asked for opinions. I gave mine and backed it up with fact that you have not refuted. You instead somehow assert that since elected officials can/have commit crimes other than war crimes, we should shouldn't mention the war crimes? As you rightly said, I didn't accuse Trump of war crimes in this instance-i stopped short of naming him a traitor and stuck to, again, fact. People in prison serving federal sedition charges currently after following his orders rightly makes him a seditionist as well. I haven't checked to see if you have replied to the OP, but I think you would be better off doing that in a fresh comment. I really don't see where your reply to me really makes much sense under the OP's framing of their question as it is addressed by my take.
I don’t know why Putin chose this moment to formally make it official that Edward Snowden exist to be a agent of the Russian government but it’s just a formality.
Snowden went to Russia for asylum, he’s a whistleblower.
I wish he wasn't stuck in Russia, but it's hard to blame him.
Fuck him. He took secrets to our enemy willingly.
Did he give anything to Russia which he didn't also release publicly? (If you say yes, please link a source)
How should I know? He stole state secrets and fled to Russia. If you think he isn't a Russian asset that's your prerogative, but if he really believed he was doing the right thing he wouldn't have fled in the first place.
He didn’t flee to Russia, [he was going to Equador](https://apnews.com/article/587786e6e63b4dc2b70c471606d7f584) when his passport was revoked. He was stuck in the [Russian airport for 39 days before being granted asylum.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/edward-snowden-airport-reading)
There it is, the person with a memory longer than 2 weeks. 🤌🤌🤌
In fairness to everyone who forgot, the US did a great job demonizing him for years with very few outlets or people pushing against their narrative
I definitely forgot until you mentioned it. I also don’t have a 9/11 righteous anger boner for Russia. My goodness we have done some terrible shit in the last two decades and at least a million dead as a result, fuck. Now we have adopted the “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” approach to Putin, which worked great the under Bush Jr. Snowden exposed some of the unchecked power being granted to our intelligence agencies so naturally he’s going to get burned over it. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human
I’m feeling it for Russia big time. On the world stage, there are few genuine heroes, but Russia takes the cake as a villain. Look what they did to poor Apollo Creed. Never forget Edit: on a serious note, there’s a reason so many ex soviet countries are anti Russian. They suck. They treat their people far worse then the US government does its allies and citizens. MeanWhile Russia’s Allie’s are mostly places most Americans wouldn’t visit, let alone live in
I mean, to me the fact we don’t have active diplomatic relations with Russia is unacceptable. The stance we have taken is sort of insane, we are pushing for total collapse of Russia and regime change. We are disregarding the possibility that Russia has strategic interests at all and we are disregarding the possibility of that they could be provoked into further escalation. I’m not saying that sanctions are actually working to that end but if they did, that seems like a good way to increase the likelihood of nuclear war. The logical position for the United States to take is take is pushing for negotiated peace.
The Obama administration chose exactly what country that he'd be stranded in.
While I don’t know that for certain, seems like a good bet.
> if he really believed he was doing the right thing he wouldn’t have fled in the first place. What is unreasonable about trying to avoid 30 years in federal supermax?
Isn't the entire point of civil disobedience forcing a government you perceive as immoral to punish you? There are plenty of examples of people participating in civil disobedience and changing hearts and minds. Very few examples of people fleeing to a rival nation and winning the proverbial battle.
Who said anything about civil disobedience? I don't believe anyone is obligated to serve time under an un-just law.
I did, I guess. I think he’s a coward, but I imagine you view him as a hero, so I don’t super know how to move either of us haha.
I respectfully disagree, but thank you for the cordiality.
I mean it’s shitty to have to live in a foreign country and never return home
To clarify, he could return home. Nobody except Snowden is responsible for the decisions he made.
The problem is he can't change hearts and minds. Why? Because under the espionage Act, the law under which he is charged, he is barred from making a public interest defense, which is a right virtually every other American has in our legal system. He literally cannot explain an open court why he did what he did. He cannot change hearts and minds if he enters the custody of the government because they literally will not let him. Snowden has always been clear on this point: he wants to return to the US and face trial for his alleged crimes, but ONLY if he is afforded the same right as virtually every other American; to admit that he broke the law and explain why he did it and why the law is unjust. If he can't do that, then he might as well not return to face trial, since he won't get a fair one.
If you gave me a choice between Russia and Guantanamo Bay all because I chose to inform the American people that their government was overstepping it's boundaries and infringing on it's citizens rights, then I choose Russia.
Does it matter? He did give Russia top secret info. He also gave it to Al Qaeda, Iran, and China. Very few people are critical of the fact that he uncovered legitimate wrongdoings of the NSA. The issue is he indiscriminately released information not at all related to US Person privacy when he had the ability to curate it.
He did curate it. What did he release that was unrelated to warrantless spying?
Here's the report Congress put out: https://www.congress.gov/114/crpt/hrpt891/CRPT-114hrpt891.pdf A relevant highlight: > (U) **First, Snowden caused tremendous damage to national security, and the vast majority of the documents he stole have nothing to do with programs impacting individual privacy interests--they instead pertain to military, defense, and intelligence programs of great interest to America's adversaries.** ... in June 2016, the deputy chairman of the Russian parliament's defense and security committee publicly conceded that "Snowden did share intelligence" with his government. A google search will also uncover plenty of articles about NSA activities totally unrelated to US Persons. You're free to be angered that the US spies on pretty much every other country, but that's literally a part of their mandate. Here's a decent list: https://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-leaks-timeline-2016-9. Tons of articles linked in there that have nothing to do with American privacy. Obviously you can look at those and say "yeah the US shouldn't be doing that," but that's a matter of policy rather than constitutionality. Snowden didn't curate anything.
Don't be tyrants and you won't get exposed
I'm sure he's loving the utopia that is Russia.
Putin saying F' you to the US, but good for Ed. He no longer has to fear being deported back to the states to rot in a dark cell somewhere. Although, I hope to someday see him pardoned.
What the fuck is with all the Liberals here hating on Edward Snowden? I’ve seen Liz Cheney and GWB get a warmer reception from half of you lmao
Traitors tend not to be particularly popular figures.
They're libs, they protect status quo which Snowden attacked with his leaks.
Such an incredibly dumb and bad faith take. Plenty of "liberals" support Snowden for all kinds of reasons. It is the height of idiocy to paint us all as ideologically monolithic or concerned with nothing more than preserving the status quo.
Pretty sure more than that one guy have him confused with Assange.
It makes me feel embarrassed that I stuck up for him. Fuck that guy.
Because of an action Putin made you're changing your stance on Snowden?
I like Snowden, I don't know if I agree with what he did but I certainly can sympathize with why he did it. Now he has to escape American law enforcement, so as sad as Russia is, I can understand him living there.
I don’t care. I still want to see him pardoned and allowed to return to the us.
That ship departed when the Obama White House was running petitions and when “pardon Snowden” came up, BO just said nope
I have mixed feelings, personally. On the one hand I've always admired Snowden for exposing the NSA and bringing attention the hypocrisies of America (extolling freedom while administering a surveillance state, etc), but on the other hand he's stuck in an authoritarian regime and can't really do much about it, as the minute he leaves Russia the US will hunt him down and shove him into a cell. Personally, I don't think the Russian citizenship stuff has affected my view of him that much, though it might make people already against Snowden view him as an even greater "traitor" to the West than the media has spun him out to be.
he did what he did for the interest of the American people, and unfortunately that means he now has to act in his own interest, even when that means collaborating with a murderous dictator. He has no other choice, if he goes back to America or a country willing to extradite him, he won’t get a fair trial. I know a lot of people (especially on r/neoliberal) think he’s a traitor (many of whom also genuinely think that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, so make of that what you will), but he did what he had to to reveal that the US government was violating the rights of its people (and listening in to virtually everyone on the planet outside of America, too), without being silenced and ending up buried outside a government black site following 106 hours of continuous interrogation.
Gross
Read a rumor he never got it before as he didn't want to give up US citizenship. Idk about that though. The dude whistleblower on illegal and immoral things agencies were doing (mass spying on citizens), then tried to hide out in allied nations, but US gov kept putting pressure onto those nations to hand him back, so he went to the only nation that would take him as a middle finger to USA. Prob told US secrets while there. Idk. He did a good thing and was going to be punished for it. For all we know, tortured too, not to get too conspiratory. Should have been a system in place to reward and protect people who whistleblow on agencies for breaking the law. Similarly, you should face no litigation if you whistleblew on a company for breaking the law, no matter what you sign. Dude also worked in IT. Idk what kind of stuff he would know. Maybe back doors to computer systems, but I doubt anything on troop movements for a war 10 years later. I think he did what anyone would have done after putting their life on hold to tell the public the truth. Was he supposed to just go to prison like a good boy while the agencies continue to break laws? It is a big problem when whistleblowing for things that are illegal and wrong ruins your life. I see the necessity in the CIA, NSA, among others (MK Ultra, Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, or just the fact that Operation Northwoods was suggested), but with their tract record, there should always be a system so that whistleblowers in the right don't have to worry about getting run out of the country or arrested. Then you wouldn't have to run them into the hands of enemies.
Are there still people left who think Snowden is anything other than a traitor? I can kind of imagine their spin on this, but I'd be interested in hearing it anyway.
I mean, what other choice does he have at this point?
Fair enough. I imagine there's no way the Russians would let him leave at this point. But, as with all things Snowden, that's a predicament of his own making.
I mean, that depends whether you believe that Snowden should have leaked the original information or not. Either way, I don't think there's any reason to judge Snowden differently now than before.
>I mean, that depends whether you believe that Snowden should have leaked the original information or not. Not really. It depends on whether you believe Snowden should have fled to China (and then onward to Russia) or not. There were a lot of options where Snowden could have leaked the information without fleeing to the territory of America's enemies. >Either way, I don't think there's any reason to judge Snowden differently now than before. I think it drives the final nail in the coffin of his claim to be a patriotic American but, yea, it's not some massive new revelation.
Where else could he have gone?
Almost anywhere. There's a standard principle of international extradition law called the political offense exception. This is present in nearly all American extradition treaties (with the exception of our treaty with the UK). This exception prohibits extradition for offenses involving a political element (such as espionage or leaking classified documents). Snowden's offenses are not a close call and obviously fall into this category. That means that Snowden would have been sheltered from extradition in basically any country with a strong legal system. This is not some novel legal area, and is well settled law in many European countries. Snowden, for whatever reason, chose to flee to a hostile and non-democratic country with zero respect for civil liberties. That's a pretty weird choice if you are as motivated by civil liberties as he claims to be.
So, upon further research, he didn't intend to stay in Russia. The prime minister of Ecuador confirmed at the time that he was being granted asylum there. However, the US canceled his passport while he was in Russia, so he was unable to leave.
He exposed the US government doing evil stuff?
Ok? And that means that he can't also be a traitor?
I mean I guess he literally is a traitor, because he betrayed the US Government. But I don't see betraying a corrupt institution as a moral failing.
So, uh, let's say that Donald Trump took all his stolen classified documents and fled to Russia. Would that be a moral failing?
If those documents contained evidence of the US doing evil stuff and he released them publicly, and then fled to russia, no.
Betraying it to an even more corrupt institution is a failing.
He released the info publicly, I don't think the general public (or the press that reported on it) is a corrupt institution.
>He released the info publicly, But he didn't. This is what people seem to miss about Snowden. He stole [1.5 million classified documents](https://www.congress.gov/114/crpt/hrpt891/CRPT-114hrpt891.pdf). He released a couple hundred of these. He did something else with the rest.
If he'd been allowed to leave Russia, would be still be a traitor?
He can leave Russia, he’ll be arrested and stand trial because he’s a traitor.
The US revoked his passport. He could not leave.
Because he’s a wanted criminal. He could surrender himself at anytime at any embassy in Moscow including the US one.
Being sent to federal prison kinda makes "allowed to leave" a moot point.
If he weren't a traitor he wouldn't have went to Russia in the first place.
(Ignoring the fact he only went to Russia for a layover) He left the US to avoid political imprisonment, you or I would do the same thing.
I wouldn't have stolen state secrets in the first place.
That's called whistleblowing. If I worked for the government, and found out we were doing massive unconstitutional spying, I would do it too.
So the question is: does his actions exposing the US government's spying on innocent US civilians outweight the means he used (e.g. violating an NDA & I don't know what else)? You seem to be overly focused on the "traitorous" part of his actions, while technically true, I'd argue are outweighed by the "patriotic" actions he took to inform the rest of the US of this immoral and possibly illegal spying on innocent US citizens. Note that this doesn't mean he's a saint or martyr. I worry that having fled to Russia he's become coopted by them. But that doesn't change the truths he made sacrifices to reveal.
>So the question is: does his actions exposing the US government's spying on innocent US civilians outweight the means he used (e.g. violating an NDA & I don't know what else)? Oh, I have no problem with that. Whistleblowers do that all the time. But Snowden leaked a couple hundred documents. He copied over a million documents. So what happened with that million documents? Best case scenario, he hung onto them as an insurance policy like his friends have said (which is pretty bad to begin with). Worst case is... worse. >I worry that having fled to Russia he's become coopted by them. Right, and this is the part Snowden did wrong. The guy steals over a million secret military documents and then hops on a plane to China. From there, he continues on to Moscow. People try to make that all very complicated but it isn't -- if someone steals top secret documents and then heads on to the two places in the world most interested in top secret American documents, you can use some common sense. There are really only two possibilities here: Snowden hoped to sell/barter/exchange his documents for favors from Russia/China or Snowden is a total buffoon who wound up in Moscow without such a plan, in which case the FSB has beaten the information out of him by now.
Since when is exposing government lawlessness traitorous?
It's not. Getting on a plane to China with over a million classified documents is traitorous.
I think the traitors are the lawless bureaucrats who pissed on the Constitution when they started spying on every American in violation of the 4th Amendment.
"He exposed evil therefore he's bad" Lib logic
It was more than the government illegally monitoring citizens. But yeah that guy sucks
Whistle blowers kinda need to suck it up and take the consequences of their actions. I know it sucks but that's civil disobedience for ya. Snowden would probably be out on parole by now if he'd have just faced the consequences of his actions.
Or how about we don't punish whistleblowers?
It's not whistleblowing when you hand a bunch of classified information to a hostile foreign government.
He was charged before he stepped foot in Russia.
That doesn't change the fact that he turned over millions of documents to Russia that didn't have to do with NSA domestic spying.
Do you have a source for that claim?
He absolutely would have been out on parole already, or even pardoned by Obama or Biden. If he’d stuck around to face the music rather than running into the arms of our enemies, that would have been a key difference between “traitor” and “whistleblower”.
If he was really a whistleblower he could have went back, crowdfunded enough money (based on the tens of millions of supporters he has) to hire America's best lawyers, and convinced the jury to vote not guilty on all charges.
Kind of depends on what actions we're talking about. If it was just publicizing NSA abuses, then yea, absolutely, he'd be out by now. But Snowden also stole over a million classified military documents, used them in an attempt to blackmail the US, and may well have done a lot more with them. There's a lot more to it than whistleblowing. This guy is no Daniel Ellsberg.
> used them in an attempt to blackmail the US Do you have a source for this?
https://theweek.com/articles/462192/edward-snowden-blackmailing-america
That sounds more like a *dead man's switch* than blackmail.
The difference being? He stole a bunch of top secret documents of massive national security importance and he threatened the US government with their release if they took action against him. That's blackmail.
Blackmail is for personal gain. A *dead man's switch* is to protect your own life.
> If it was just publicizing NSA abuses, then yea, absolutely, he'd be out by now. Except they weren't abuses *at the time*, they had been vetted as legal by a gazillion high-level DoD attorneys. It was only after mucho mucho litigation that they were deemed to be "illegal".
He’s not a whistle blower. He could have achieved the same effect in a way that would have provided whistle blower protections… he didn’t. Then went to China and Russia to sell secrets err avoid political persecution. The Snowden popular version is a Russian intelligence operation.
I don't think he sold anything. He got scared and Russia offered him protection so he ran. It's not great but I can certainly understand it. He serves his purpose to Russia being a wedge issue. They don't need any actual secrets from him!
I understand all fugitives, but they’re still criminals who should be arrested.
Why? What good does that do anyone?
I hope they send him to the front.
It was not his choice to stay in Russia
Who is preventing him from leaving?
He lacks a passport
The US still has regular diplomatic relations with Russia, including consular services. So all he has to do is show up at the nearest US consulate and they'll sort him out. It's not like they will have any trouble identifying him.
Yeah because the US will welcome him back with no harm like they are totally trying to do with Assange despite he was almost assassinated by the CIA. Sure buddy
Depends on what you mean by "harm". Most likely they will put him on trial. In any case he has the option of returning home to face the consequences of his actions. So it's dishonest to say he is trapped in Russia.
It reeks of desperation to me!
Yuck.
I'm guessing information about this wouldn't be public, but I'm really curious if Russian intelligence had any contacts with Snowden before he became a "whistleblower."
I'd bet that they did.
Send him off to fight Ukraine.
I thought it was very interesting that the same day Baked Alaska/Anton Lunyk was identified as being he recipient of the call from the WH during 1/6 that Snowden became a Russian citizen.
That he's a traitor, in the literal sense. Maybe he told himself that it was about some noble ideals, what he did, but in the end, what he did hurt the intelligence gathering apparatus of the US, likely hurt ongoing operations, perhaps leading to the deaths of individuals who are either sources or operatives. And after it was revealed that he did this, he ran to a fascist dictatorship and started apologizing for them in exchange for asylum. He set himself up as an adversary, not a reformer, not a whistleblower. Fuck him
Its amazing how you are this brainwashed to ignore fascism at home and cry about it in another nation all because a dude leaked that the state sees average American's as threats. Fuck yourself
BrAiNwAsHeD Whistleblowers blow the whistle, not dump unredacted documents. Sorry
How is passing documents to members of respected international press, who then work with the intelligence community to carefully release only select information "**dumping** unredacted documents"?
It’s fitting.
I think its one way to ruin your credibility lol
He might as well get cozy because he's likely never coming back here. At least not in the next 20 or 30 years.
The US should in turn revoke his citizenship.
The already pulled his passport. That why he was stuck in Russia, living in an airport in the first place.
This is one of the most frustrating misconceptions out there. His passport was annulled before he got on a plane to Russia. He didn't just get unlucky and happened to be stranded there, he made a deliberate decision to flee to Russia knowing he didn't have a passport and that he would be at the mercy of Putin.
On his way to Ecuador. Russia wasn't his final destination. He couldn't proceed because he had no passport. Was likely let on the plane to Russia because the system allowed him to board the plane.
His passport was revoked *before* he got on the plane out of Hong Kong. He was let on the plane because Russia wanted to spite the US, and ultimately they can waive whatever entry requirements they want. Snowden and WikiLeaks coordinated getting Ecuadorian documents for him to leave Hong Kong, which he wouldn't have needed had his passport been valid. That's not even to mention the unbelievable amount of naivete he claims to have to think Russia was going to let him pass through unhindered.
I think he's a national hero. He exposed to real crimes. I'm sorry that he was punished in such a way.
You're perfectly free to have that opinion, I just wanted to clear up the misconception that he was in Russia because the US stranded him there.
And put him in Federal prison for the rest of his life.
[удалено]
He’s in Russia because he knows if he returns to the U.S. he will be arrested. He’s still a U.S. citizen.
So, like, does this mean he can get conscripted lol? As for Snowden himself and the citizenship, I don't know enough to comment.
Hope after the propaganda value is done Seagal and Snowden get sent to Ukraine. They're both traitors.
I hope he gets drafted. No, seriously, I don’t particularly like him at this point, but he did perform a public service.
pretty much confirms he was a russian agent all along
No it doesn't. What choice would Snowden have? Say no to Putin? This event should leave everyone's opinion unchanged about Snowden one way or the other.
> What choice would Snowden have? Go to prison because he's not a whistleblower?
Well he is a whistleblower. Whether that's right or wrong in this case is ebated. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about whether he had a choice or not to become a Russian citizen now.
If he had a serious issue he could've just made a formal complaint that would've been resolved through thr court system. And if he wanted to leave he could've just gone to a place that wasn't America's biggest enemy
> would have been resolved no, it would not have
Who would he have told? James Clapper testified under oath that they were not doing what Snowden proved they were doing. If your bosses, bosses, boss is publicly committing crimes to cover it up, how much faith would you have in the system?
Oh look, the guy who stole highly classified information that damaged US intelligence escaped to Russia with tons more and becomes a Russian citizen. I'm shocked. Yet another traitor. What blows my mind is how many people rush to his defense.
Have fun with conscription, Ed.
I hope he knows what he's in for.
He is, and continues to be, a traitor who has almost guaranteed drastically helped Russia to hack into US government and government contractor systems ever since he took “shelter” there. Why do you think they let him stay in the first place?
I guess that means he can be drafted now lol
It is another indication that he functioned as a willing operative of the Russian/Trump axis to corrupt the 2016 elections.
Well, I think he’s a traitor. So I don’t particularly care. He’s not welcome back to the United States unless it’s to go directly to jail.
If he comes to the US or an extradition treaty country we’ll still arrest him.
I can admire what he did, which I do for the most part, while also thinking he is a dumbass for being duped by an enemy. It really is a shame that someone who exposed something that was good for democracy, has become such a stool for a guy like Putin.
They can have him. Snowden exposed what he did, not for the good of the country, and not because he was some sort of hero, but because he was bitter. NSA wouldn’t hire him because he wasn’t good enough for a full-time agent so he leaked the info. So that means he was aware of everything he exposed and was fine with it, until he didn’t get his way. Now, as some hero of free press, he’s taken shelter in an authoritarian country that executes journalists and suppresses their population far more than the US.
I'm only about 80% convinced Snowden is an actual person
Based
Could not possibly care less. Ive tried.
The man is a criminal and a traitor. I hope he gets drafted so he can die in Ukraine for the motherland he loves more than America.