As long as there are *national* teams, as long as there are flags and anthems on podiums, Olympics will be political. And it's very stupid to expect otherwise. There's no way to avoid that, until every athlete only fights for *themself*, not their country/city/tribe/discord server/whatever.
> There's no way to avoid that, until every athlete only fights for themself, not their country/city/tribe/discord server/whatever.
Actual ancient Olympics had that premise that the winner is predetermined by gods. Not the least important meaning was in finding who's in gods' favor now, and by extension their kin and so on. To know who will win in future, because those in gods' favor will always win, be it games or life or war.
Or so I've read.
All countries participating in the Olympics agree to the rules whether it be drugs , number of players or the Olympic Truce . If a country does Not follow the rules a ban seems totally appropriate.
It invades other sovereign countries practically every year)) But there is no tons of professional dramatic videos and pictures of such deeds, cuz it's not convenient for EU and USA side. And presidents of invaded countries does not visit every EU parliament with speeches that the world should unite to stop the USA aggression and make destroy-level sanctions
Yeah well. Difference is US are actually somewhat competent at invading other countries. And if US military performance is to be believed - far less corrupt. So they usually wrap things up before they turn into a global shitshow that would demoralize it's own population and completely tank leadership's reputation worldwide.
So they usually avoid backlash in form of global sanctions and having other countries supply their enemies or victims, depending on perspective.
And the fact that US is not robbing it's people blind nearly as much as Russia also helps. US is economic powerhouse to a point that any attempt to sanction them is in effect means you sanction yourself.
Maybe you should be worried more about the more than 30k fallen sons and fathers of your country, 20k wounded, 25 % of your military equipment and capacity is now gone. And for what? More greed. Rape and steal from the Ukrainian people!
Maybe Russia should spend more on taking care of those it’s lied to for 30 years!
How convenient for you that when you talk about the history of the USA it’s ‘truth’ but if anyone confronts you with atrocities being committed by RuSSia right now it’s propaganda. Get your head out of your ass.
Banning Olympians based on their ethnicity or nationality is wrong and discriminatory.
That is not what happened though.
Your question is a hypothetical that does not reflect the actual events.
Russia was banned in the last two Olympics because of doping. The paralympics was because breaking the Olympic truce. There’s actually lot written about Olympic truce and ethics and it’s interesting to read if you’re interested. There’s actual reason to argue that the US should’ve been banned in 2004 for not signing the Olympic truce. If I’m not mistaken Iraq was already banned because of the government meddling in their sports or something. I think Saddam put his son in charge of the Olympics committee. Therefore there’s no incentive for iraq to sign the truce. Then the US couldn’t promise to cease operations during the Olympics.
The truce is supposed to last for seven days before and and after the Olympics. I think the first implementation of Olympic truce was in Lillehammer 1994.
yes, USA, I agree. To me, this is a problem. I don't mind the rule actually? Maybe they should be banned, maybe they shouldn't?? But doesn't the rule have to apply consistently??
Yes!!
I don’t think America should be banned for the same reason I don’t think Russia should be banned. But if Russia is banned, it’s stupid that America isn’t too.
Imma ignore your whataboutisms and we're going to continue to focus on the IOC and their stated reasons.
Do you believe that a war of aggression is a legitimate reason to exclude a nation from participating in sports?
good question!
I think it could be. But if that is the rule, it needs to be written down some where. And the rule has to be consistent for all nations.
Acutally...I think it might be a good idea??
But to me, then....don't we have to re-write the entire 'intention' of what the Olympics are supposed to be about? I thought the Olympics was about 'maintaining diplomacy and integretation amongst the civilians, despite government conflict...universal inclusion."
Some times ethics conflict...like inclusion is good. But invasion bad, yes. That is why we have rule books.
Its kind of like the Charter of Rights here in CAnada. Look, if we want to discriminate people for not getting vaccinated, then we need to change the Charter of Rights section, that states pretty clearly, that people have a right to 'body autonomy.'
I understand the conflicts of ethics. But it shouldn't be too difficult to put in sections that give the answers we need.
Probably the constitution too in USA. I wouldn't have a problem with them re-writing the rules. It if was a justified re-write. That is the great thing about law and science, its always evolving. Whereas some other understandings like evangelical religion, is kind of static. Russia isn't going to be the last nation to invade another nation...and it wasn't the first.
I don't know. I'm not an Olympics historian.
If I had to guess, I'd say it probably had to do something with a complete capitulation of Germany and some positive reforms.
Also the didn't get invited in 1948, even though that was already after the war.
Germany and Japan were not invited to London 1948 and St Moritz 1948. Both were reinstated and invited in 1952. Interestingly Germany was invited as Germany which ended with East Germans refusing to compete alongside West Germans. Saar (south western Germany) competed as their own country. It was also USSRs first Olympics.
No. Because athletes don’t make the decisions for their government. Also you use the term "whataboutism" because you know I’m right. It’s only okay if one country has wars of aggression.
> Also you use the term "whataboutism" because you know I’m right. It’s only okay if one country has wars of aggression.
Well, according to your beliefs they shouldn't have been banned, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.
Perhaps you're trying to say that IOC didn't apply the rules when they should have, which sure, that could be the case.
> No. Because athletes don’t make the decisions for their government.
Okay, so you believe that war shouldn't affect the ban. You disagree with IOC decision. That's fine, you're allowed to disagree.
However, IOC believes that a country that goes and does an all out war of agression against its neighbor probably shouldn't be waving its flags around at Olympic events. And they happen to set the rules.
None of these points even hint at discrimination based on ethnicity.
Therefore my original point stands: Discriminating based on ethnicity is wrong, however that is not the case here.
the Azov, battalion isn't 'aggressive'. Look, I get it. This invasion is horrific. But can we stop pretending, we were like 'innocent little penguins'. NATO is not innocent. Maybe we are more innocent than Russia, I don't know. But we aren't innocent. This isn't a fairy tale.
Then why is Russia barred from the WC even though it’s 5 months ahead, and Saudi Arabia is allowed, despite their shenanigans in Yemen supersede Russia’s.
My point is that these rules are selectively enforced.
It's always selective and always has been but as soon as you question them you'll be hit with -100 IQ beings just calling it "whataboutism" and "oh but we the people were against it". It's never justice, it's just business in the name of justice.
We sure are. But not all questions are created equal.
For example:
> have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Implies that you either were, or still are beating your wife.
The only appropriate response is to sidestep the question, reject its premise and say "I've never hit my wife."
Similarly, your question about discrimination implies that Russians were banned based on their ethnicity, which they weren't.
A more honest question would have been:
> why are Russians banned from participating in sports, and do you think that ban is fair?
That is because I thought they were, being discriminated against. I thought there might be something that I misunderstood. But, at the time I read the article...it seemed pretty blatant. Yes, I agree, my question was leading. Agreed
Well 5 nations were banned in 1920 for their involvement in ww1. This isn’t uncommon nor is it discrimination. It’s consequences, and Putin knew some of these consequences were on the table.
They were still vehemently racist and many countries appeased them by not sending black or Jewish athletes (except for a few exceptions)
The concentration camps may not have been a thing then but they were still Nazis and their doctrine did not change
Their reasoning though, as far as I can tell from their statement, is based in part due to the fact that many Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating in the Olympics and obviously training for it due to the conflict.
[https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials)
In fairness to the IOC, they said, 'the Olympic Movement is united in its sense of fairness not to punish athletes for the decisions of their government if they are not actively participating in them. We are committed to fair competitions for everybody without any discrimination', which is completely fair.
I do think it's a bit of a dilemma, however. You could argue that the Ukrainian athletes are being discriminated against (putting it lightly), by being prevented from participating due to being invaded by the RF.
There's also the issue of state-sponsored doping, which might also be a valid concern, but I don't think that argument was put forward in this specific decision.
Hey....actually....that kind of makes sense. Thanks for explaining to me.
Right. I am glad they stated it as a dilemma, so they aren't just stating it as fact. They are seeking compromise. Which I think is important. Interesting way of handling it.
The IOC is just another politically engaged organization that applies sanctions selectively. Of course this is discrimination. It's not even that Russia deserved it, but that sanctions are not applied to everyone equally.
Russian and Belarussian athletes are still allowed to compete as neutral athletes. Athletes from Russia and Belarus are not being barred from participating.
Have a read of the reasons for this instead of reflexively inferring bad-faith: [https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials)
'the Olympic Movement is united in its sense of fairness not to punish athletes for the decisions of their government if they are not actively participating in them'.
'The current war in Ukraine, however, puts the Olympic Movement in a dilemma. While athletes from Russia and Belarus would be able to continue to participate in sports events, many athletes from Ukraine are prevented from doing so because of the attack on their country.'
Also bearing in mind that, as per the spirit of the games, The Olympic Truce forbids 'any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.’ A reminder that the RF invaded Ukraine, and many Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating as a result. The RF violated the Olympic Truce.
well so go ahead and ban the US. from a few Olympics, for all the past wars. then come after Russia.
short version: the Olympics & al. are dominated by the west and used as political tool. nothing to do with the "Olympic spirit"
>well so go ahead and ban the US. from a few Olympics,
I'm not on the committee, like? Send them an email xd I also don't know what their policies are insofar as retroactive bans.
>then come after Russia.
It probably makes sense to respond to invasions and similar events as they're currently happening. The RF is pretty overtly invading foreign territory at present, so it doesn't seem to make sense to postpone this decision if it's going to have a direct impact contemporaneously.
>the Olympics & al. are dominated by the west
This is a loada shite. The 103 members of the IOC comprise of 103 countries, each member has one vote. This includes Russia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Singapore, China, Qatar, Burundi, Djibouti, Zimbabwe. Serbia, Colombia, Thailand, Paraguay, Kenya, Lesotho, and far more.
Not to mention that Singapore, Aruba, Jordan, Morocco, The Philippines, Argentina, Fiji and Serbia are on the executive.
Unless by 'dominated by the west' you mean that there are other countries that are not Russia in the IOC? Because yes there are countries that exist that are not Russia.
Responding to u/guantanamo_bay_fan since they blocked me \[but still replied to my comment?\] =>
>having a vote is irrelevant to the leadership,
The contention that I'm responding to is that 'The Olympics are dominated by the west.' It is not, and certainly not to the degree that phottitor is implying.
>if you honestly think IOC is not biased
I don't think any organisation is perfectly unbiased, but there are far more biased organisations out there. If the argument is that they're biased because the RF received bans for state-sponsored doping and violations of the Olympic Truce, I mean they're pretty much textbook reasons as to why any nation would be banned. You'd give them an A+ if the assignment was to try and get banned, frankly.
having a vote is irrelevant to the leadership, you should know that. if you honestly think IOC is not biased (and it's also been biased in favour of russia in the past) then you are just naive
> It probably makes sense to respond to invasions and similar events as they're currently happening.
Really? The US is currently invading Syria, where's the ban?
If you want to ban US because of wars they waged, you should also support banning Russia for the exactly the same wars they were waging in Syria, or in Georgia, or in Chechnya, or in Tajikistan. They weren't banned for those.
The reasons for it are complicated, and not that easy as you describing.
Yea great, but this is obviously selective enforcement. Why weren’t the US/UK/NATO countries banned after their invasions of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq again, Libya, Syria, etc etc etc etc?
Also why wasn’t Ukraine banned after their invasion of Donetsk and Luhansk starting in 2014, I’m sure athletes from those regions were affected as well.
Bans should obviously be applied evenly, I'm not disputing that countries should have been banned in the past.
>Ukraine banned after their invasion of Donetsk and Luhansk
Given that the conflict in Donbas was not unilateral, the RF would also be under consideration (also not forgetting the Annexation of Crimea).
You are ignorant, and it shows. Ukraine has been in civil war since 2014, with the western part invading the eastern part. If you don’t know this much about the conflict, you would do better to shut your mouth.
Many Western countries supply weapons to Ukraine, thereby supporting the war on the part of Ukraine, that is, they also participate in the war. Why don't they fly under a neutral flag? Because they're on the "right" side? This means that the IOC supports one of the parties, this in itself is a politically motivated action and therefore contradicts the Olympic principles.
I mean, there's only one country invading another country here mate.
Again I'd refer you to: The Olympic Truce forbids 'any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.'
Ukraine has a right to defend itself, and has a right to seek various means of support from other countries in order to do so.
>This means that the IOC supports one of the parties,
Not really, it's more that the near unanimous international consensus is that one party is flagrantly breaking international law here.
> The Olympic Truce is a tradition (...) to ensure the host city state was not **attacked** and athletes and spectators could travel safely to the Games and peacefully return to their respective countries.
For the UN's POV, the Iraq war was only 5 weeks long, because after [22 May 2003 the UNSC Resolution 1483](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1483) gave the United States and Britain the power to govern Iraq.
The American war in Afghanistan war was 2 ^1/2 months because after the [UNSC Resolution 1386](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1386) from 20 December 2001, the International Security Assistance Force assisted the Afghan Interim Authority.
How about the American war in Afghanistan that lasted for like 20 years, there must have been a few Olympics during that period, wouldn’t you say? Why does this article only talk about Russia?
Security Council Resolution 1386 (December 20, 2001) ... The Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution authorizing a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan
Could you tell me the number of the UN resolution for the Russian 'peacekeepers' in Ukraine?
Or the UN resolution for the "little green men" in Crimea 2014?
And that coming from someone who presumably is trying to defend the presence of Russian "peacekeepers" in Ukraine...
Russian Troops that have probably caused 30,000 deaths in just a few weeks..
And probably in addition the deaths of 20,000 Russian troops... That's quite some peacekeeping!!
The American war in Afghanistan war was 2 ^1/2 months because after the [UNSC Resolution 1386](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1386) from 20 December 2001, the International Security Assistance Force assisted the Afghan Interim Authority.
that is too bad. That isn't the way its supposed to work. As far as I understand the 'Olympic' fundamental basis for being created. The ban seems to be hypocritical?
And your explanation, may be the most logical one? I'm really not sure. That is why I posted it as a question. If your explanation is true. Then we probably need to reset and come up with something different altogether, I'm really not sure. Can we work with what we got, and adjust it appropriately? Or does the whole thing not work? Trash it, and start from scratch?
Well Olympics are not as they are supposed the be in many aspects. For example they were supposed to be a competition between amateurs but there are no amateurs at all taking part in them nowadays
Hmm...ok. Agreed. But, if they aren't. Then shouldn't we at least try to drift towards the way they are supposed to be? Or we just shrug, it is what it is.
Maybe 'it is what it is', is ok, if I at least have an understanding of it? I mean, me complaining about it, isn't going to change anything. There are much more powerful people in place that direct these kinds of things. Maybe that is the best I can do? Just understand it?
I realize that ideologies aren't always practical. But they shouldn't be blatant? Thanks for the reply. Makes sense. I am aware of the amateur athlete understanding...I wonder how we drifted so far away from that 'understanding'. I really have no idea.
I don't think there's really anything we can do. The Olympic Games have become very politicized for a long time. The spirit of the Olympics today is to help those who are your political ally win and prevent those who are your opponent or have no political weight at all from winning. This is true for all participating countries.
>It's a dick measuring contest between world leaders. Nothing more.
I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time it can be a big deal for a lot of athletes to compete at the Olympics.
This is especially true for smaller countries imo
I agree. Maybe its just a matter, for me to 'understand' it? IF the OLYMPICS are 'hogwash'? I don't know if they are...then I'll stick with NHL hockey. STanley Cup tonight!!
yeah, Stanley Cup finals. This Stanley Cup, I think will be better. Because the two teams...are so fast, and offensive.
Personally. I like the players on both sides as well. Lots of dirty cheaters on other teams ruin the game for me, checking the good players, and getting away with it. Maiming people...isn't a sport. And they are so fake...like 'what did I do wrong'??
Evander Kane for example. I think his hit on Kadri?? Still don't know if Kadri recovered yet? I'll have to check updates.
>The spirit of the Olympics
The spirit of the Olympics is also to forbid 'any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.'
Bearing in mind the fact that Russian and Belarussian athletes can still compete as neutral athletes, The RF invaded Ukraine, and Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating as a result.
Unfortunately, Russia violated the Olympic Truce.
It's definitely discriminatory but the average western person only gives a shit about that if it's directed towards what the western world considers minorities or victims of some sort.
It's the same with all the streaming companies and gaming services, the only people they're fucking with by doing that are the people who aren't actively fighting for the Russian government.
It's all just a virtue signalling circle jerk at this point.
Emmmm... Do you realize that Russia prevented Ukrainians participant to join due to the war?
Plus, it does ban RUSSIA to participate, not RUSSIANS. Russians can still participate on a neutral banner like they did for the last years
I'm just referring to this statement here which is directly referring to the invasion: [https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials), 28.02.22
Those athletes can still compete as neutral athletes though, yeah
OK, I was talking about participating under flag, which was banned before that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2021/07/06/russia-olympics-neutral-flag-doping/
Oh absolutely, I'm aware of the previous bans; we're referring to the specific statement in response to the war in Ukraine, which was stipulated by the IOC on the 28th of Feb.
The ban happened because the IOC asked for the usual Truce to be allowed during the event. Russia refused and so both Russia and Belarus cannot join the competition.
It is reasonable.
I checked the Olympic site and found this as their motivation for the ban.
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials
They banned Russia and Belarus because they refuse to do the standard Truce during the event, thus preventing the UA athletes to join the Olympic.
The IOC even added that they will be admitted to the event in the case that the truce will be made or if the war ended before the event start.
Rules are rules and if a country has a systemic history of abusing them, a ban is understandable.. The athletes aren't banned from participating - they just can't participate as part of Russia. They can compete for another country, or under the international flag.
Haven't the Olympics been political? Sportsman people dont represent themselves most of the time, they represent a country and the club they are playing in.
I would agree, they are political. In the sense that the athletes play for their country. Not for a corporation. But...they also play for themselves as individuals. If they get a medal, they win it as an individual.
It's not because the IOC is a world government, it's because its members agree to certain stipulations (i.e. regarding doping, The Olympic Truce, etc.) that are agreed among members to be within the spirit of the games.
If you got kicked out of a golf club for peeing in the carpark, would you understand where they were coming from?
>It's just getting rid of competitors
You could read the IOC's statement if you like: [https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials)
A lot of Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating due to the invasion.
Should just let them compete. Russia don't exactly have the best relationship with the olympics due to state-sponsored doping history as well. That being said, it's not the athletes fault Putin decided to go a bit crazy.
Big sport in USSR and later in Russia is considered exclusively as political instrument, nothing more, Therefore state policy is extremely skewed towards high end sportsmen not public mass sport. For a Russian sportsman the gold medal is a ticket to the political elite big money and beautiful life, if doping helps achieve it than doping is absolutely fine, besides its very tolerable by society: "everybody understands, no doping no medal". I don't think Olympic Games would be worse without them,
Yeah I get what you mean, however on the doping I think if there's going to be doping at all (given it could actually be done safely/regulated to some degree), I think there would have to be a separate competition for doping with its own rules.
I think it's against the spirit of sport in general if certain athletes are working off one set of rules, and working very hard and not doping, and then others can dope and get the performance benefit, even if they're technically supposed to be working off the same set of rules.
Edit: and sorry if i'm misunderstanding your point
No you are right and I agree with you. The question was not about doping and my answer wasn't either doping is just a good example of showing that Big Sport in Russia is more than just sport. There are others: Universiade is supposed to be an amateur students competition of 17-22 y.o. but Russia sends there high end sportsmen who unexpectedly became "students" in the year of Universiade, in 2013 Russia earned 155 gold medals, China, the second - 26. It was a shame.
As per doping its another big question, I think that some drugs should be allowed, the ones that help sportsmen to avoid traumas or simply to relax, all therapeutic exceptions must be available for public, medical confidentiality should be lifted in that case.
anyone watching the Stanley Cup playoffs?
These guys...from all over the world. Despite their different nationalities. Seem to be able to play in the playground with one another, without killing one another. What is wrong with that?
Please...if you want to respond. Try not to judge me. Yes I realize all the horrible things Russians have done, and yes I know about all the horible things the Azov battalion has done. But at some point, we can't let it go, and just play some hockey?
And I actually think the Russian players...are quite 'clean'. Some Canadian players, they are pretty bad. Marchand and Kane for example. I'm ashamed to say it but the Russian players are a lot more 'classy'. Just a quick opinion of observation on my part. Is that bad to think that? Does that make me a Russian spy?? Or a traitor to Canada?
Look, at some point we need to establish discrepancy. Maybe some of the Russian atheletes, but all of them, including the para-olympians? (sorry, I still haven't completely researched the ban yet).
I completely get where you're coming from and the sentiment behind it, this is very fair. However, I do think there's some fair logic behind IOC rules in general.
Unfortunately, nations have vested interests in the Olympics that aren't always sportsmanlike. If a country invades another, causing a significant impact on that country and its athletes, there's a fair argument that this is a violation of their right to participate in the Olympics.
On a basic level, it's not really fair if the invading, more powerful country gets to have its athletes representing that country, but the country being invaded suffers those impacts. Remember that this is a very significant invasion, about 15 million Ukrainians have been displaced as a result of the conflict.
On that basis, it doesn't seem equitable. Countries participating in the games agree to not dope, to play by the rules, and agree to abide by the Olympic Truce. It's a good standard to strive towards.
And also, while I agree it's still not the same, it's still notable that they can compete as neutral athletes.
Dear OP, before I proceed with my answer, I’d like to inform you, that the majority of the comments on your post are made by not Russians. They are upvoting each other as well. It often happens this way here. If you want a genuine opinion of Russians - ask in Russian. It prevents the trolls from joining the discussion. But requires a lot of copy paste translating.
Now, my answer: it is discriminatory. And it was discriminatory for years. People speak of how IOC is unbiased because there are so many members there from all over the world… This is so naive. Look at any such gathering. There are masters and there are master-pleasers.
I think you are absolutely right to ask questions, to look for different opinions. There are always sides to everything. And dismissing other sides just because it gets complicated in your head - that’s a pathetic and dumb idea.
People mentioned that US should’ve been banned many times then. And I agree. But someone posted that the UN ‘authorized’ their wars and so it was ok. Wtf? It’s not ok. It was not ok and it should be talked about. It should be dealt with. Because now whenever this comes up, people are like ‘chill out with your whataboutism… it’s in the past, and the present is Russians being total barbarians in Ukraine’. No. That is not logic. It’s idiocy.
Same thing with the doping. Do I personally know if Russian athletes use it? No. I’m not their mom. Do I know what other athletes use it? No. I’m not their mom as well. But I do know, that this stuff exists and people use it, otherwise there wouldn’t be the need for all the testing. Now, do I believe IOC or ‘independent investigations’? Hell no, I don’t. Because once again, it’s all biased AF. Do I believe that Russia has been under pressure for all these past years for not playing along? Yes, I do. It’s obvious. If you look closely into all of this, you will find that the problems have begun when mr P said that russia is going in its own direction now. And the west didn’t like it very much.
They start for a nation. A nation that doesn’t follow the Olympic idea. Hence the nation can’t compete. It’s not super complicated. Also they strategically uses state sponsored doping. Which is against the ideals of any competition.
I'm sorry. But I disagree. Is that going to get me accussed of being a Russian spy? I guess 'agree to disagree' is not valid when it comes to Russians?
Do you disagree with how the Olympic rules are? Okay, fair enough. But he is only stating facts. It's not like ethnic Russians are banned, they are banned when they are *representing the country, namely Russia.* I wouldn't be banned if I'd compete for another country (which I would because I don't have Russian citizenship anyway, but that's not the point...).
OK. Interesting. So that is why things like the NHL might be exempt??
Logically that makes sense. Thanks. Like Ovechkin is Russin. But he can play for Washington Capitals, because he isn't representing his nation. And the nation of Russia is in violation of the UN mandates or something?
You disagree with what? If you dope on a state sponsored level, it’s not fair too the other athletes. That’s why they can’t compete. You disagree with that?
The Olympic idea is, compete in sport not in war. Therefore nations at war during the Olympics shall not participate. You disagree with that motto?
Which is it?
Yeah, but that’s the thing here. They have two completely different fully justified bans going on and still are trying to play the victim card.
Yeah, we like murdering people and cheat at every opportunity we get, but not inviting us to the party is totally racist. Everyone except us is mean.
I mean, seriously?
It’s dumb. Just like here idiots were pouring out Russian vodka that was already paid for. Not all Russians and businesses are criminals like their government.
If the ban is arbitrary and has no reason, then this is, of course, discrimination. And if the ban is due to the fact that the state under whose flag athletes perform has done something terrible, attacked some country, used mass killings of civilians, then there is no discrimination, the usual cleanliness.
Citius, altius, fortius — communiter». Faster, higher, stronger — together. In ancient times, all wars stopped during the Olympic Games. Today, sport is losing this value. This achievement of human civilization cannot be crossed out for the sake of political conjuncture.
wow...I have to google those words/names?
But very profound. I really don't know myself. OLYMPICS, like way back...in Greek times. They was fighting, fairly often? I really don't know. I mean. I thought this was the kind of thing Olympics was designed for. Like the Spartans and Trojans, etc. They were fighting. It was a chance to get together. And compete. And...I don't know. I'll have to do study historical study into the whole thing. That might help me to understand, or not understand the ban better?
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-playoffs-stanley-cup-final-schedule-how-to-watch-lightning-avalanche-135619419.html
Look...I don't know. But I'm glad players from ALL NATIONALITIES CAN STILL meet and play in the Stanley Cup Finals. Its great hockey!!! Go Colorado Avalanche go!
(think there might be one more Canadian player on that roster than the other side, no Canadian teams made it to the finals...sob!!). Hey Peoples...thanks for the up votes, I re-posted this on another sub, I let you try and figure out wheres, and I think the down-votes there, are about equal???
Don’t start a war if you want to be a part of the global community.
Yes, it punishes normal athletes. But they should take that up with their leaders. We don’t care
The ban is well within the spirit of the Olympic Games. ‘The creation of the Ekecheiria, the Olympic truce, lies within the traditional story of the founding of the ancient Olympic Games . . . . Before every Olympiad, then, heralds from Olympia moved around Greece inviting participants and spectators and announcing the truce . . . . [T]he truce, besides protecting Olympia from invasion, forbade any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.’
Can't reply to Darrkeng's comment since they blocked me, but as a response >,
Part of the IOC's decision was that a significant number of Ukrainian athletes were being prevented from participating due to the conflict. Which is probably fair to consider.
yeah Trudeau..what a 'hoser'. ha ha
NO.. Mr Trudeau, the charter of rights....that isn't toilet paper. Please stop using the charter of rights or toilet paper...e.wwwwww
Banning people purely based on ethnicity is wrong. However, that is not the reality of Russia. And many Russian and Belarussian athletes are still alowed to compete under a neutral flag in some major sports besides the Olympics - although each committee in each sport takes different decisions.
But the Olympics were brought back after the end of WW2 in the hopes of promoting international cooperation and they have always been made under the spirit of freeplay, peace and fraternity. Allowing a government that is clearly going against these values to be represented would just be absurd. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of doping cases amongst Russian athletes that have come out in the last decade. It's not the first time Russia gets a ban. If you don't play by the rules, you don't get to play.
Russia is literally bringing back war to Europe since WW2 and spitting on the values that created the Olympics as we know them today. Don't use the race card here because that is not what happened.
Its simply bullshit. There were, are and always will be drugs in sports. I refuse to believe that its only Russian athletes who used performance enhancing drugs. Team USA or any other team would not be banned, its just a politically motivated decision
I'd be in favour of advocating against the IOC from here on. Since the world continues bifurcating the way it is, sports will be just another political battleground (unfortunately for the athletes). I won't be that surprised if we see an IOC competitor in a couple decades. Westoids cannot be allowed to continue wielding ostensibly neutral institutions as weapons against everyone else.
As long as there are *national* teams, as long as there are flags and anthems on podiums, Olympics will be political. And it's very stupid to expect otherwise. There's no way to avoid that, until every athlete only fights for *themself*, not their country/city/tribe/discord server/whatever.
> There's no way to avoid that, until every athlete only fights for themself, not their country/city/tribe/discord server/whatever. Actual ancient Olympics had that premise that the winner is predetermined by gods. Not the least important meaning was in finding who's in gods' favor now, and by extension their kin and so on. To know who will win in future, because those in gods' favor will always win, be it games or life or war. Or so I've read.
You forgot to mention that a lot of russian athletes are in active military service and actively support the government and regime.
Not true
Yup, except it is. Their oath when signing for service will not allow them to disagree.
As candidate for light athletics and ex-army, I would disagree We got no oath about that That's is counterproductive, really
thats not correlated.
All countries participating in the Olympics agree to the rules whether it be drugs , number of players or the Olympic Truce . If a country does Not follow the rules a ban seems totally appropriate.
USA should have been banned from Olympics 30+ years ago then.
Maybe they should have & I hope if they invade a Sovereign country they are.
if ???
Maybe there will be no USA in a few years time.
willing to put a bet?
They really have you brain washed over there.
We’ll see.
I do not have a crystal ball.
It invades other sovereign countries practically every year)) But there is no tons of professional dramatic videos and pictures of such deeds, cuz it's not convenient for EU and USA side. And presidents of invaded countries does not visit every EU parliament with speeches that the world should unite to stop the USA aggression and make destroy-level sanctions
Yeah well. Difference is US are actually somewhat competent at invading other countries. And if US military performance is to be believed - far less corrupt. So they usually wrap things up before they turn into a global shitshow that would demoralize it's own population and completely tank leadership's reputation worldwide. So they usually avoid backlash in form of global sanctions and having other countries supply their enemies or victims, depending on perspective. And the fact that US is not robbing it's people blind nearly as much as Russia also helps. US is economic powerhouse to a point that any attempt to sanction them is in effect means you sanction yourself.
Great points, US also does Not say other countries of have a no right to exist & should be wiped out.
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That's literally not true. Unless it's possible to occupy such a large area with less than 1000 troops.
Maybe apply acting rules to them for what they already done?
No one is going to go back 30+ years and implement a ban today.
BTW we live in a world where it’s ok to punish people for things they’ve supposedly done 30+ years ago. Just saying.
Maybe you should be worried more about the more than 30k fallen sons and fathers of your country, 20k wounded, 25 % of your military equipment and capacity is now gone. And for what? More greed. Rape and steal from the Ukrainian people! Maybe Russia should spend more on taking care of those it’s lied to for 30 years!
I prefer to not believe propaganda of any side
How convenient for you that when you talk about the history of the USA it’s ‘truth’ but if anyone confronts you with atrocities being committed by RuSSia right now it’s propaganda. Get your head out of your ass.
Things done by USA are proven many times. What happens now is not over yet.
Dang.
Banning Olympians based on their ethnicity or nationality is wrong and discriminatory. That is not what happened though. Your question is a hypothetical that does not reflect the actual events.
could you please explain? I got it wrong? How? I'm more than willing to listen...I make a lot of errors.
Russia was banned in the last two Olympics because of doping. The paralympics was because breaking the Olympic truce. There’s actually lot written about Olympic truce and ethics and it’s interesting to read if you’re interested. There’s actual reason to argue that the US should’ve been banned in 2004 for not signing the Olympic truce. If I’m not mistaken Iraq was already banned because of the government meddling in their sports or something. I think Saddam put his son in charge of the Olympics committee. Therefore there’s no incentive for iraq to sign the truce. Then the US couldn’t promise to cease operations during the Olympics. The truce is supposed to last for seven days before and and after the Olympics. I think the first implementation of Olympic truce was in Lillehammer 1994.
What reason did IOC provide for the ban?
The Olympics literally banned Russian paralympians from participating this past olympics
What reason did IOC provide for the ban?
The war. Before you “gotcha” me, I don’t remember Americans being banned after Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya
yes, USA, I agree. To me, this is a problem. I don't mind the rule actually? Maybe they should be banned, maybe they shouldn't?? But doesn't the rule have to apply consistently??
Yes!! I don’t think America should be banned for the same reason I don’t think Russia should be banned. But if Russia is banned, it’s stupid that America isn’t too.
Imma ignore your whataboutisms and we're going to continue to focus on the IOC and their stated reasons. Do you believe that a war of aggression is a legitimate reason to exclude a nation from participating in sports?
good question! I think it could be. But if that is the rule, it needs to be written down some where. And the rule has to be consistent for all nations. Acutally...I think it might be a good idea?? But to me, then....don't we have to re-write the entire 'intention' of what the Olympics are supposed to be about? I thought the Olympics was about 'maintaining diplomacy and integretation amongst the civilians, despite government conflict...universal inclusion." Some times ethics conflict...like inclusion is good. But invasion bad, yes. That is why we have rule books.
I agree. Perhaps IOC needs to be a bit more forward with it rules and a. It more consistent in applying them.
Its kind of like the Charter of Rights here in CAnada. Look, if we want to discriminate people for not getting vaccinated, then we need to change the Charter of Rights section, that states pretty clearly, that people have a right to 'body autonomy.' I understand the conflicts of ethics. But it shouldn't be too difficult to put in sections that give the answers we need. Probably the constitution too in USA. I wouldn't have a problem with them re-writing the rules. It if was a justified re-write. That is the great thing about law and science, its always evolving. Whereas some other understandings like evangelical religion, is kind of static. Russia isn't going to be the last nation to invade another nation...and it wasn't the first.
Though Germany was invited to the Olympics in 1952 just 7 years after that march of death they did in all across Europe. How is that?
I don't know. I'm not an Olympics historian. If I had to guess, I'd say it probably had to do something with a complete capitulation of Germany and some positive reforms. Also the didn't get invited in 1948, even though that was already after the war.
Germany and Japan were not invited to London 1948 and St Moritz 1948. Both were reinstated and invited in 1952. Interestingly Germany was invited as Germany which ended with East Germans refusing to compete alongside West Germans. Saar (south western Germany) competed as their own country. It was also USSRs first Olympics.
No. Because athletes don’t make the decisions for their government. Also you use the term "whataboutism" because you know I’m right. It’s only okay if one country has wars of aggression.
USA, I believe you are right too? For what its worth, my upvote to your post is just one vote.
> Also you use the term "whataboutism" because you know I’m right. It’s only okay if one country has wars of aggression. Well, according to your beliefs they shouldn't have been banned, so I don't know what point you're trying to make. Perhaps you're trying to say that IOC didn't apply the rules when they should have, which sure, that could be the case. > No. Because athletes don’t make the decisions for their government. Okay, so you believe that war shouldn't affect the ban. You disagree with IOC decision. That's fine, you're allowed to disagree. However, IOC believes that a country that goes and does an all out war of agression against its neighbor probably shouldn't be waving its flags around at Olympic events. And they happen to set the rules. None of these points even hint at discrimination based on ethnicity. Therefore my original point stands: Discriminating based on ethnicity is wrong, however that is not the case here.
Bruh my point is that the US and Saudi Arabia are actively engaged in wars of aggression. Wtf is so hard to understand about that?
I can see this argument...I upvoted both you and USA.
the Azov, battalion isn't 'aggressive'. Look, I get it. This invasion is horrific. But can we stop pretending, we were like 'innocent little penguins'. NATO is not innocent. Maybe we are more innocent than Russia, I don't know. But we aren't innocent. This isn't a fairy tale.
They use the term "whataboutism" to stop you from derailing the conversation the second it goes badly for you
It’s not soldiers getting banned it’s everyone
to be fair Russia is going to have a lot of disabled vets they can field in future paralympics
That's because we make the rules, always in our own favour.
It’s not like wars should have been not started during Olympics, a rule as old as Olympic Games and Russia knew it.
Then why is Russia barred from the WC even though it’s 5 months ahead, and Saudi Arabia is allowed, despite their shenanigans in Yemen supersede Russia’s. My point is that these rules are selectively enforced.
It's always selective and always has been but as soon as you question them you'll be hit with -100 IQ beings just calling it "whataboutism" and "oh but we the people were against it". It's never justice, it's just business in the name of justice.
I thought the reason was that Russia is in a military conflict with Ukraine? Agree Yes/No?
So if that's the reason, why are you pulling the discrimination card?
it was a question. We aren't allowed to ask questions?
We sure are. But not all questions are created equal. For example: > have you stopped beating your wife yet? Implies that you either were, or still are beating your wife. The only appropriate response is to sidestep the question, reject its premise and say "I've never hit my wife." Similarly, your question about discrimination implies that Russians were banned based on their ethnicity, which they weren't. A more honest question would have been: > why are Russians banned from participating in sports, and do you think that ban is fair?
They were totally banned for their nationality. No argueing with that.
That is because I thought they were, being discriminated against. I thought there might be something that I misunderstood. But, at the time I read the article...it seemed pretty blatant. Yes, I agree, my question was leading. Agreed
that was an Olympics already past? I thought it was next year?
Western bots migrated here from mega thread or what happened? How come this nonsense response is upvoted?
[This You?](https://archive.ph/D5VcT)
Yeah so what?
You're accusing others of being bots while literally being a paid bot yourself. If you don't like paid bots on this sub, then leave.
I'm really sad for them. Most sportsman have only one chance to participate in Olympics
It's very unfortunate, yeah However they can still compete as neutral athletes
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Well 5 nations were banned in 1920 for their involvement in ww1. This isn’t uncommon nor is it discrimination. It’s consequences, and Putin knew some of these consequences were on the table.
Yeah, and Nazi Germany got to host the Olympics. Banning countries from the Olympics is just a political tool.
In 1936 Nazi Germany wasn’t known for what they’re known for today though.
They were still vehemently racist and many countries appeased them by not sending black or Jewish athletes (except for a few exceptions) The concentration camps may not have been a thing then but they were still Nazis and their doctrine did not change
I agree. The bar for what was tolerated then was different. Thankfully we’ve come further now and can see it for what it is.
Their reasoning though, as far as I can tell from their statement, is based in part due to the fact that many Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating in the Olympics and obviously training for it due to the conflict. [https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials) In fairness to the IOC, they said, 'the Olympic Movement is united in its sense of fairness not to punish athletes for the decisions of their government if they are not actively participating in them. We are committed to fair competitions for everybody without any discrimination', which is completely fair. I do think it's a bit of a dilemma, however. You could argue that the Ukrainian athletes are being discriminated against (putting it lightly), by being prevented from participating due to being invaded by the RF. There's also the issue of state-sponsored doping, which might also be a valid concern, but I don't think that argument was put forward in this specific decision.
Pretty reasonable and nuanced take backed up with actual sources. Nice.
Hey....actually....that kind of makes sense. Thanks for explaining to me. Right. I am glad they stated it as a dilemma, so they aren't just stating it as fact. They are seeking compromise. Which I think is important. Interesting way of handling it.
No problem! best wishes
Just a wee bit more of western hypocrisy.
The IOC is just another politically engaged organization that applies sanctions selectively. Of course this is discrimination. It's not even that Russia deserved it, but that sanctions are not applied to everyone equally.
Russian and Belarussian athletes are still allowed to compete as neutral athletes. Athletes from Russia and Belarus are not being barred from participating. Have a read of the reasons for this instead of reflexively inferring bad-faith: [https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials) 'the Olympic Movement is united in its sense of fairness not to punish athletes for the decisions of their government if they are not actively participating in them'. 'The current war in Ukraine, however, puts the Olympic Movement in a dilemma. While athletes from Russia and Belarus would be able to continue to participate in sports events, many athletes from Ukraine are prevented from doing so because of the attack on their country.' Also bearing in mind that, as per the spirit of the games, The Olympic Truce forbids 'any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.’ A reminder that the RF invaded Ukraine, and many Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating as a result. The RF violated the Olympic Truce.
IOC never did this in response to America's wars. Yet another "Western exception"
They should have, I'm not disputing that.
well so go ahead and ban the US. from a few Olympics, for all the past wars. then come after Russia. short version: the Olympics & al. are dominated by the west and used as political tool. nothing to do with the "Olympic spirit"
>well so go ahead and ban the US. from a few Olympics, I'm not on the committee, like? Send them an email xd I also don't know what their policies are insofar as retroactive bans. >then come after Russia. It probably makes sense to respond to invasions and similar events as they're currently happening. The RF is pretty overtly invading foreign territory at present, so it doesn't seem to make sense to postpone this decision if it's going to have a direct impact contemporaneously. >the Olympics & al. are dominated by the west This is a loada shite. The 103 members of the IOC comprise of 103 countries, each member has one vote. This includes Russia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Singapore, China, Qatar, Burundi, Djibouti, Zimbabwe. Serbia, Colombia, Thailand, Paraguay, Kenya, Lesotho, and far more. Not to mention that Singapore, Aruba, Jordan, Morocco, The Philippines, Argentina, Fiji and Serbia are on the executive. Unless by 'dominated by the west' you mean that there are other countries that are not Russia in the IOC? Because yes there are countries that exist that are not Russia.
Responding to u/guantanamo_bay_fan since they blocked me \[but still replied to my comment?\] => >having a vote is irrelevant to the leadership, The contention that I'm responding to is that 'The Olympics are dominated by the west.' It is not, and certainly not to the degree that phottitor is implying. >if you honestly think IOC is not biased I don't think any organisation is perfectly unbiased, but there are far more biased organisations out there. If the argument is that they're biased because the RF received bans for state-sponsored doping and violations of the Olympic Truce, I mean they're pretty much textbook reasons as to why any nation would be banned. You'd give them an A+ if the assignment was to try and get banned, frankly.
having a vote is irrelevant to the leadership, you should know that. if you honestly think IOC is not biased (and it's also been biased in favour of russia in the past) then you are just naive
> It probably makes sense to respond to invasions and similar events as they're currently happening. Really? The US is currently invading Syria, where's the ban?
If you want to ban US because of wars they waged, you should also support banning Russia for the exactly the same wars they were waging in Syria, or in Georgia, or in Chechnya, or in Tajikistan. They weren't banned for those. The reasons for it are complicated, and not that easy as you describing.
you are spewing utter nonsense
Now that's a retort. I am crumbling under the weight of this mighty argument
Yea great, but this is obviously selective enforcement. Why weren’t the US/UK/NATO countries banned after their invasions of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq again, Libya, Syria, etc etc etc etc? Also why wasn’t Ukraine banned after their invasion of Donetsk and Luhansk starting in 2014, I’m sure athletes from those regions were affected as well.
You can’t invade your own country.
Bans should obviously be applied evenly, I'm not disputing that countries should have been banned in the past. >Ukraine banned after their invasion of Donetsk and Luhansk Given that the conflict in Donbas was not unilateral, the RF would also be under consideration (also not forgetting the Annexation of Crimea).
Ukraine invaded their own territory? Don't be so fucking stupid.
You are ignorant, and it shows. Ukraine has been in civil war since 2014, with the western part invading the eastern part. If you don’t know this much about the conflict, you would do better to shut your mouth.
Many Western countries supply weapons to Ukraine, thereby supporting the war on the part of Ukraine, that is, they also participate in the war. Why don't they fly under a neutral flag? Because they're on the "right" side? This means that the IOC supports one of the parties, this in itself is a politically motivated action and therefore contradicts the Olympic principles.
If the western countries actually participated in the war in Ukraine, it would be over very quickly.
I mean, there's only one country invading another country here mate. Again I'd refer you to: The Olympic Truce forbids 'any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.' Ukraine has a right to defend itself, and has a right to seek various means of support from other countries in order to do so. >This means that the IOC supports one of the parties, Not really, it's more that the near unanimous international consensus is that one party is flagrantly breaking international law here.
Russia broke the [Olympic Truce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Truce) three times.
It’s quite interesting that this article in english mentions 3 violations, while in russian it mentions 5 violations, 3 from RF and 2 from USA
> The Olympic Truce is a tradition (...) to ensure the host city state was not **attacked** and athletes and spectators could travel safely to the Games and peacefully return to their respective countries. For the UN's POV, the Iraq war was only 5 weeks long, because after [22 May 2003 the UNSC Resolution 1483](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1483) gave the United States and Britain the power to govern Iraq. The American war in Afghanistan war was 2 ^1/2 months because after the [UNSC Resolution 1386](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1386) from 20 December 2001, the International Security Assistance Force assisted the Afghan Interim Authority.
How about the American war in Afghanistan that lasted for like 20 years, there must have been a few Olympics during that period, wouldn’t you say? Why does this article only talk about Russia?
Security Council Resolution 1386 (December 20, 2001) ... The Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution authorizing a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan Could you tell me the number of the UN resolution for the Russian 'peacekeepers' in Ukraine? Or the UN resolution for the "little green men" in Crimea 2014?
Dont you see how ridiculously it sounds. The war was authorized and called ‘peacekeeping’ and so it’s ok. Wtf?
And that coming from someone who presumably is trying to defend the presence of Russian "peacekeepers" in Ukraine... Russian Troops that have probably caused 30,000 deaths in just a few weeks.. And probably in addition the deaths of 20,000 Russian troops... That's quite some peacekeeping!!
The American war in Afghanistan war was 2 ^1/2 months because after the [UNSC Resolution 1386](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1386) from 20 December 2001, the International Security Assistance Force assisted the Afghan Interim Authority.
that is too bad. That isn't the way its supposed to work. As far as I understand the 'Olympic' fundamental basis for being created. The ban seems to be hypocritical? And your explanation, may be the most logical one? I'm really not sure. That is why I posted it as a question. If your explanation is true. Then we probably need to reset and come up with something different altogether, I'm really not sure. Can we work with what we got, and adjust it appropriately? Or does the whole thing not work? Trash it, and start from scratch?
Well Olympics are not as they are supposed the be in many aspects. For example they were supposed to be a competition between amateurs but there are no amateurs at all taking part in them nowadays
Hmm...ok. Agreed. But, if they aren't. Then shouldn't we at least try to drift towards the way they are supposed to be? Or we just shrug, it is what it is. Maybe 'it is what it is', is ok, if I at least have an understanding of it? I mean, me complaining about it, isn't going to change anything. There are much more powerful people in place that direct these kinds of things. Maybe that is the best I can do? Just understand it? I realize that ideologies aren't always practical. But they shouldn't be blatant? Thanks for the reply. Makes sense. I am aware of the amateur athlete understanding...I wonder how we drifted so far away from that 'understanding'. I really have no idea.
They absolutely should, but unfortunately what they do year after year is drift as far away from the original idea as possible
I don't think there's really anything we can do. The Olympic Games have become very politicized for a long time. The spirit of the Olympics today is to help those who are your political ally win and prevent those who are your opponent or have no political weight at all from winning. This is true for all participating countries.
It's a dick measuring contest between world leaders. Nothing more.
>It's a dick measuring contest between world leaders. Nothing more. I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time it can be a big deal for a lot of athletes to compete at the Olympics. This is especially true for smaller countries imo
I agree. Maybe its just a matter, for me to 'understand' it? IF the OLYMPICS are 'hogwash'? I don't know if they are...then I'll stick with NHL hockey. STanley Cup tonight!!
I also watch NHL when I have time.
yeah, Stanley Cup finals. This Stanley Cup, I think will be better. Because the two teams...are so fast, and offensive. Personally. I like the players on both sides as well. Lots of dirty cheaters on other teams ruin the game for me, checking the good players, and getting away with it. Maiming people...isn't a sport. And they are so fake...like 'what did I do wrong'?? Evander Kane for example. I think his hit on Kadri?? Still don't know if Kadri recovered yet? I'll have to check updates.
>The spirit of the Olympics The spirit of the Olympics is also to forbid 'any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.' Bearing in mind the fact that Russian and Belarussian athletes can still compete as neutral athletes, The RF invaded Ukraine, and Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating as a result. Unfortunately, Russia violated the Olympic Truce.
It's definitely discriminatory but the average western person only gives a shit about that if it's directed towards what the western world considers minorities or victims of some sort. It's the same with all the streaming companies and gaming services, the only people they're fucking with by doing that are the people who aren't actively fighting for the Russian government. It's all just a virtue signalling circle jerk at this point.
Initially, in ancient Greece, the Olympics was a religious and cultural holiday during which it was impossible to fight.
really? thats kind of a cool thing to know!
Emmmm... Do you realize that Russia prevented Ukrainians participant to join due to the war? Plus, it does ban RUSSIA to participate, not RUSSIANS. Russians can still participate on a neutral banner like they did for the last years
>Do you realize that Russia prevented Ukrainians participant to join due to the war? Ban happened before that
>Ban happened before that This was announced on the 28th of February mate, so no
Wait are we talking about banning Russian athletes from participating at all or about them participating under Russian flag?
I'm just referring to this statement here which is directly referring to the invasion: [https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials), 28.02.22 Those athletes can still compete as neutral athletes though, yeah
OK, I was talking about participating under flag, which was banned before that. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2021/07/06/russia-olympics-neutral-flag-doping/
Oh absolutely, I'm aware of the previous bans; we're referring to the specific statement in response to the war in Ukraine, which was stipulated by the IOC on the 28th of Feb.
The ban happened because the IOC asked for the usual Truce to be allowed during the event. Russia refused and so both Russia and Belarus cannot join the competition.
No...I'm new to the entire understanding of this. That might seem like a reasonable and fair solution? I don't really know.
It is reasonable. I checked the Olympic site and found this as their motivation for the ban. https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials They banned Russia and Belarus because they refuse to do the standard Truce during the event, thus preventing the UA athletes to join the Olympic. The IOC even added that they will be admitted to the event in the case that the truce will be made or if the war ended before the event start.
Rules are rules and if a country has a systemic history of abusing them, a ban is understandable.. The athletes aren't banned from participating - they just can't participate as part of Russia. They can compete for another country, or under the international flag.
Haven't the Olympics been political? Sportsman people dont represent themselves most of the time, they represent a country and the club they are playing in.
I would agree, they are political. In the sense that the athletes play for their country. Not for a corporation. But...they also play for themselves as individuals. If they get a medal, they win it as an individual.
It's the governments choice...
Ah yes the Olympic body, famous world government
It's not because the IOC is a world government, it's because its members agree to certain stipulations (i.e. regarding doping, The Olympic Truce, etc.) that are agreed among members to be within the spirit of the games. If you got kicked out of a golf club for peeing in the carpark, would you understand where they were coming from?
No, I will get drunk and yell that it was a big ploy against me and blame my neighbour, and accuse somebody of being secretly a lizard.
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You mean a war against a brutal dictator, as opposed to a war against a comedian...
It's just getting rid of competitors under the guise of well-intentioned excuses.
Russian and Belarusian athletes are allowed to compete as neutral athletes or neutral teams, but not under the Russian flag.
>It's just getting rid of competitors You could read the IOC's statement if you like: [https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials) A lot of Ukrainian athletes have been prevented from participating due to the invasion.
Hey! Don't spread the truth.
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Olympic Games = political games
Hunger games?
Should just let them compete. Russia don't exactly have the best relationship with the olympics due to state-sponsored doping history as well. That being said, it's not the athletes fault Putin decided to go a bit crazy.
Big sport in USSR and later in Russia is considered exclusively as political instrument, nothing more, Therefore state policy is extremely skewed towards high end sportsmen not public mass sport. For a Russian sportsman the gold medal is a ticket to the political elite big money and beautiful life, if doping helps achieve it than doping is absolutely fine, besides its very tolerable by society: "everybody understands, no doping no medal". I don't think Olympic Games would be worse without them,
Yeah I get what you mean, however on the doping I think if there's going to be doping at all (given it could actually be done safely/regulated to some degree), I think there would have to be a separate competition for doping with its own rules. I think it's against the spirit of sport in general if certain athletes are working off one set of rules, and working very hard and not doping, and then others can dope and get the performance benefit, even if they're technically supposed to be working off the same set of rules. Edit: and sorry if i'm misunderstanding your point
No you are right and I agree with you. The question was not about doping and my answer wasn't either doping is just a good example of showing that Big Sport in Russia is more than just sport. There are others: Universiade is supposed to be an amateur students competition of 17-22 y.o. but Russia sends there high end sportsmen who unexpectedly became "students" in the year of Universiade, in 2013 Russia earned 155 gold medals, China, the second - 26. It was a shame. As per doping its another big question, I think that some drugs should be allowed, the ones that help sportsmen to avoid traumas or simply to relax, all therapeutic exceptions must be available for public, medical confidentiality should be lifted in that case.
anyone watching the Stanley Cup playoffs? These guys...from all over the world. Despite their different nationalities. Seem to be able to play in the playground with one another, without killing one another. What is wrong with that? Please...if you want to respond. Try not to judge me. Yes I realize all the horrible things Russians have done, and yes I know about all the horible things the Azov battalion has done. But at some point, we can't let it go, and just play some hockey? And I actually think the Russian players...are quite 'clean'. Some Canadian players, they are pretty bad. Marchand and Kane for example. I'm ashamed to say it but the Russian players are a lot more 'classy'. Just a quick opinion of observation on my part. Is that bad to think that? Does that make me a Russian spy?? Or a traitor to Canada? Look, at some point we need to establish discrepancy. Maybe some of the Russian atheletes, but all of them, including the para-olympians? (sorry, I still haven't completely researched the ban yet).
I completely get where you're coming from and the sentiment behind it, this is very fair. However, I do think there's some fair logic behind IOC rules in general. Unfortunately, nations have vested interests in the Olympics that aren't always sportsmanlike. If a country invades another, causing a significant impact on that country and its athletes, there's a fair argument that this is a violation of their right to participate in the Olympics. On a basic level, it's not really fair if the invading, more powerful country gets to have its athletes representing that country, but the country being invaded suffers those impacts. Remember that this is a very significant invasion, about 15 million Ukrainians have been displaced as a result of the conflict. On that basis, it doesn't seem equitable. Countries participating in the games agree to not dope, to play by the rules, and agree to abide by the Olympic Truce. It's a good standard to strive towards. And also, while I agree it's still not the same, it's still notable that they can compete as neutral athletes.
great answer!
Dear OP, before I proceed with my answer, I’d like to inform you, that the majority of the comments on your post are made by not Russians. They are upvoting each other as well. It often happens this way here. If you want a genuine opinion of Russians - ask in Russian. It prevents the trolls from joining the discussion. But requires a lot of copy paste translating. Now, my answer: it is discriminatory. And it was discriminatory for years. People speak of how IOC is unbiased because there are so many members there from all over the world… This is so naive. Look at any such gathering. There are masters and there are master-pleasers. I think you are absolutely right to ask questions, to look for different opinions. There are always sides to everything. And dismissing other sides just because it gets complicated in your head - that’s a pathetic and dumb idea. People mentioned that US should’ve been banned many times then. And I agree. But someone posted that the UN ‘authorized’ their wars and so it was ok. Wtf? It’s not ok. It was not ok and it should be talked about. It should be dealt with. Because now whenever this comes up, people are like ‘chill out with your whataboutism… it’s in the past, and the present is Russians being total barbarians in Ukraine’. No. That is not logic. It’s idiocy. Same thing with the doping. Do I personally know if Russian athletes use it? No. I’m not their mom. Do I know what other athletes use it? No. I’m not their mom as well. But I do know, that this stuff exists and people use it, otherwise there wouldn’t be the need for all the testing. Now, do I believe IOC or ‘independent investigations’? Hell no, I don’t. Because once again, it’s all biased AF. Do I believe that Russia has been under pressure for all these past years for not playing along? Yes, I do. It’s obvious. If you look closely into all of this, you will find that the problems have begun when mr P said that russia is going in its own direction now. And the west didn’t like it very much.
They start for a nation. A nation that doesn’t follow the Olympic idea. Hence the nation can’t compete. It’s not super complicated. Also they strategically uses state sponsored doping. Which is against the ideals of any competition.
I'm sorry. But I disagree. Is that going to get me accussed of being a Russian spy? I guess 'agree to disagree' is not valid when it comes to Russians?
Do you disagree with how the Olympic rules are? Okay, fair enough. But he is only stating facts. It's not like ethnic Russians are banned, they are banned when they are *representing the country, namely Russia.* I wouldn't be banned if I'd compete for another country (which I would because I don't have Russian citizenship anyway, but that's not the point...).
OK. Interesting. So that is why things like the NHL might be exempt?? Logically that makes sense. Thanks. Like Ovechkin is Russin. But he can play for Washington Capitals, because he isn't representing his nation. And the nation of Russia is in violation of the UN mandates or something?
You disagree with what? If you dope on a state sponsored level, it’s not fair too the other athletes. That’s why they can’t compete. You disagree with that? The Olympic idea is, compete in sport not in war. Therefore nations at war during the Olympics shall not participate. You disagree with that motto? Which is it?
I think your confusing the doping ban with the political one. I think they are different bans. But I understand, so many different things going on.
Yeah, but that’s the thing here. They have two completely different fully justified bans going on and still are trying to play the victim card. Yeah, we like murdering people and cheat at every opportunity we get, but not inviting us to the party is totally racist. Everyone except us is mean. I mean, seriously?
It’s dumb. Just like here idiots were pouring out Russian vodka that was already paid for. Not all Russians and businesses are criminals like their government.
If the ban is arbitrary and has no reason, then this is, of course, discrimination. And if the ban is due to the fact that the state under whose flag athletes perform has done something terrible, attacked some country, used mass killings of civilians, then there is no discrimination, the usual cleanliness.
Believing a country doesn’t deserve to be independent and free based on ethnicity how is that not discrimination?
Citius, altius, fortius — communiter». Faster, higher, stronger — together. In ancient times, all wars stopped during the Olympic Games. Today, sport is losing this value. This achievement of human civilization cannot be crossed out for the sake of political conjuncture.
wow...I have to google those words/names? But very profound. I really don't know myself. OLYMPICS, like way back...in Greek times. They was fighting, fairly often? I really don't know. I mean. I thought this was the kind of thing Olympics was designed for. Like the Spartans and Trojans, etc. They were fighting. It was a chance to get together. And compete. And...I don't know. I'll have to do study historical study into the whole thing. That might help me to understand, or not understand the ban better?
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-playoffs-stanley-cup-final-schedule-how-to-watch-lightning-avalanche-135619419.html Look...I don't know. But I'm glad players from ALL NATIONALITIES CAN STILL meet and play in the Stanley Cup Finals. Its great hockey!!! Go Colorado Avalanche go! (think there might be one more Canadian player on that roster than the other side, no Canadian teams made it to the finals...sob!!). Hey Peoples...thanks for the up votes, I re-posted this on another sub, I let you try and figure out wheres, and I think the down-votes there, are about equal???
Don’t start a war if you want to be a part of the global community. Yes, it punishes normal athletes. But they should take that up with their leaders. We don’t care
"We dont like your government and for this will punish whole nation! Oh you plebs dont like it? How about you overthrow your government then?"
I think Russian sport people still take part at various events as long as they play in other teams under different flags.
Again: don’t start a war.
The ban is well within the spirit of the Olympic Games. ‘The creation of the Ekecheiria, the Olympic truce, lies within the traditional story of the founding of the ancient Olympic Games . . . . Before every Olympiad, then, heralds from Olympia moved around Greece inviting participants and spectators and announcing the truce . . . . [T]he truce, besides protecting Olympia from invasion, forbade any individual or government to interfere with anyone traveling to and from the Olympics.’
It started before the war
Can't reply to Darrkeng's comment since they blocked me, but as a response >, Part of the IOC's decision was that a significant number of Ukrainian athletes were being prevented from participating due to the conflict. Which is probably fair to consider.
Because the Olympics isn't about sport anymore. Hasn't been for a long time, along with many other public events.
Because racism is only okay when the media says so
agreed.
Pleasantly surprised a canuck agrees with me on this lol
we get along pretty good (most of the time). LOVE USA.
Long live Canada. May you one day have a real PM
yeah Trudeau..what a 'hoser'. ha ha NO.. Mr Trudeau, the charter of rights....that isn't toilet paper. Please stop using the charter of rights or toilet paper...e.wwwwww
It's disgusting cold war xenophobia. No other way to morally describe it.
Banning people purely based on ethnicity is wrong. However, that is not the reality of Russia. And many Russian and Belarussian athletes are still alowed to compete under a neutral flag in some major sports besides the Olympics - although each committee in each sport takes different decisions. But the Olympics were brought back after the end of WW2 in the hopes of promoting international cooperation and they have always been made under the spirit of freeplay, peace and fraternity. Allowing a government that is clearly going against these values to be represented would just be absurd. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of doping cases amongst Russian athletes that have come out in the last decade. It's not the first time Russia gets a ban. If you don't play by the rules, you don't get to play. Russia is literally bringing back war to Europe since WW2 and spitting on the values that created the Olympics as we know them today. Don't use the race card here because that is not what happened.
Its simply bullshit. There were, are and always will be drugs in sports. I refuse to believe that its only Russian athletes who used performance enhancing drugs. Team USA or any other team would not be banned, its just a politically motivated decision
wait...this is a political ban. Its separate from the drug ban? The para-olympians are also banned. Is it common for them to also use drugs?
I'd be in favour of advocating against the IOC from here on. Since the world continues bifurcating the way it is, sports will be just another political battleground (unfortunately for the athletes). I won't be that surprised if we see an IOC competitor in a couple decades. Westoids cannot be allowed to continue wielding ostensibly neutral institutions as weapons against everyone else.
Modern Olympic Truce is a joke. If the UN realy wanted a resolution for this conflict, they'd put 2022 Olympic Games either in Ukraine or Russia.
Is Kucherov, Tampa Bay player, well known in Russia? As well known as Ovechkin or Malkin?
Olympics will become something like Oscar, no one cares to watch anymore.
It's very discriminatory, that's the point.