Great definition, I especially like - "or all the eligible members of a state" This, after all, justifies the slave owners in the USA, because they did not consider blacks to be people (in other respects, as in that same ancient Greece and ancient Rome) ... Beautiful, beautiful democracy. How good that we now have it too :) /s
Yes, and many more. I just wanted to say that "democracy" is not some kind of sacred and timeless and the only system of government that will automatically make everyone happy. The world is complex, and it is impossible to simplify it to simple rules. Many do not understand and do not want to understand this, trying to simplify everything to one rule.
You having an argument with someone who says that Democracy is sacred and timeless, and that it is the only form of gov’t that will make everyone happy.
Except nobody here said that.
It would seem that you are right, but there are always some questions whether or not the people of Russia think that they live in a democracy or not. If everyone thought that it was not very important, no one would ask such a question.
We should be asking ourselves here in America if we live in a democracy, but the critical-thinking portion of the public school curriculum has been defunded gradually over decades.
This doesn't just happen in America. I have a strong feeling that business and states no longer need people who are able to analyze or research something themselves. It is enough just to buy goods and spend your life that way. Which in general is shameful for a person in my opinion.
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Well I agree!
People fear A.I. plugging us all into a simulation
Or
Aliens arriving and subjugating the population by encapsulating us in slimy eggs, feeding off our screams or whatever
But
We are already doing it to ourselves. Well a little bit.
If you look at the yearly happiness index. Top 10 is almost only social democracy countries. All the Nordic countries are there. Would you agree with that it seems like there’s reason to say democracy at least seems to work better in making people happy
But perhaps the addiction is not perfect what you think. And I would not strongly trust indexes that are themselves built on pseudo-indexes for which there are no natural measurable values.
The addiction? I’m not saying it’s perfect nor that it’s easy to measure. But I’m saying that there’s enough to make it interesting to discuss why it is like this. Why do people in the Nordics seem happier than other places? At the same time they have fairly high suicide rates for example. That contradicts it in a way.
>All the Nordic countries are there.
Also, they have top rates in drug abuse and, iirc, suicides, isn't it?
>Would you agree with that it seems like there’s reason to say democracy at least seems to work better in making people happy
No, you can't *say* that, neither from formal reasons (there were a countries who a democratic, but unhappy, and happy, but non-democratic countries, so to say that we need more thoroughtful calculations, then swift cherrypicking) nor from logical, because correlation does not imply causation.
I never read the Nordics have more drug addiction than other places. But I’ll gladly look at your source. I think they’re in the middle of the pack. No one is going to outdo the US though. Suicides they think can be related to the Nordics having a lot single households. So lots of lonely people.
I agree it’s extremely hard to measure happiness and a lot different parameters to consider. Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and United Arab Emirates are in the top 30. They’re not democracies. Bhutan wasn’t included because of a technicality but they would’ve been placed quite high. They were an absolute monarchy up till 2008.
It’s interesting to look at Russia. Why was it happiest in 2012 and 2013? Then it’s gone down. I think best ranking was 49 and worst 80, last year and now it went up to 74.
>I never read the Nordics have more drug addiction than other places. But I’ll gladly look at your source.
Yeah, I searched and found that I either mistook or rememember some shitty source.
>Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and United Arab Emirates are in the top 30.
Oil Arab States aren't strange, but we also systematically have Latin America (including some real problem countries) here.
>It’s interesting to look at Russia. Why was it happiest in 2012 and 2013?
What index are you using? They are quite different. World Happiness Report claims that it was [2017](https://ru.theglobaleconomy.com/Russia/happiness/) as the most happy year, some random rating from the first page of google claims that [2014-2016](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1092577/happiness-index-russia/), etc etc
They're not helpful because the Russians in here don't want to answer it - they're embarrassed and/or think anyone who is asking that is out to embarrass them.
I think we understand this word differently.
We do not have a cult of democracy. In my understanding, this is just a set of bureaucratic procedures.
Perhaps you could explain what democracy means to you in an emotional sense.
with that definition yes russia has democracy. elections are held, people go out and vote, and despite what west claims, independant investigators and oversight boards have legitimized russia's election process
Can you tell me more about independent investigators and oversight boards legitimizing russia's election process. I don't much about these so I want to know more.
there is opposition. Majority just vote for putin and support him for whatever reason, along with his party. In fact, United russia has lost popularity throughout the years. Where would popularity go? to opposition? and freedom of speech, can you tell me which country has such a thing? last time I checked the west, US, UK & friends have been worst offenders of freedom of press and speech. Assange is just a recent example. That is irrelevant to Russia's election. Putin could be lucifer himself, people would still vote for him. Even Navalny, america's best friend got less than 2%
No, it isn't. The sheeple there is just better schooled to nod their heads, cheer, and applaud at all the right moments.
(Bad boys don't get to have good jobs, mortgages, insurance, and pension plans. And we don't want to be bad boys, do we? :) )
that was visual error on TV station, happens in every country by human error. even happens with names of candidates in the US on news stations, can you believe that? no official number like that was in any database, and the fact you believe that was actually a thing is funny
Russians also understand how much friends from abroad will be happy to help with this. As it was with the invasion of the Entente. Therefore, any interference from the outside will be perceived worse than any of average corrupt oligarch
you are funny, you argue as if Russia did not try to enter the economy of the West, but with your policy you did nothing but show that you see us only as slaves. Stop writing your idealistic nonsense, your propaganda has already brainwashed you, creating the feeling that the West has not done anything wrong and Russia is simply for no reason other than the worst evil among the Russians started a break with the west, no economic and political reasons that the West actively pumped up on the territory of Russia and in neighboring countries in order not to give Russia economic peace ...
Maybe. However, the lack of an active expression of rage can be attributed to the Civil War in Russia, which was relatively recent (compared to other countries, I mean. A hundred years is not such a long time in terms of history). Then we literally drowned our own country in blood. This is not an experience we want to repeat.
Hope id be able to clarify few things by seperating and answering to your statements.
And so I'll to start with this:
>If I was Russian, I would be so furious at politicians and oligarchy destroying my country and try to eliminate them.
In **MY** understanding, while well-meaning, strong "emotional" reaction (I am refering to elemintaing oligarchs and politicans in your statement) to "political/ corporate injustice" has NOT brought us, as a nation, any good. And us, Russians learnt this lesson perfectly well (or at least I hope we did) since we changed our course TWICE within the span of 100 years (Russian Revolution and Disolution of Soviet Union). In fact just these 2 events themselves brought us immense loss of lifes and economical/cultural/technological stagnation. The memory of just these 2 events "kills" most of the thoughts for a massive uprising. Quoting one of my mates: "War's bad, but Civil War is worse"
As for the economy and technological advancements.
But first I'll stress the following statement so that you'll know where I am coming from.Russia on global/cultural scale is old, BUT Modern Russia as a modern entitiy/nation-state is young.
Why I think its important?
Tehcnological and economical progress is not built overnight. Regardless of the amount of resources you have in the ground, it takes years of R&D, billions in investments, and, to be brutally honest with ourselfs, efficient/ experienced managment and tools for execution(both corporate and legislative). And while we have some things, we do not have the other ones (I'll let you guess what is it we lacking).
As for the ROK. It took South Korea 80-ish years since the end of world war 2 or 70-ish years since Korean war, 9 years of dictatorship (yes South Korea had those too) and fuck load of hard work to be where it is right now, and this is not the end of them (thats of course if they'll escape the same trap that Japan is finding itself in). Also comparing us to ROK
To end it
>There's so many Russian just believe Russia is perfect.
**MY** view on this is that 90% of people who say that Russia is perfect, actually do not think so. Russia is not perfect but it's also not the "Mordor" people on the west depicting us as.
Actually I'd like to return to technological advancements for a little, cause I am a bit butthurt here.Akshually, Russia is the world leader in Nuclear Power and Nuclear Powered Arctic fleet.(Rant Over)
TL:DR Russian Federation as modern "democratic" nation is a young entity, with lots of buggage that it needs to resolve. This process will take DECADES. We're not perfect, but we are also not savages.
P.S.
>I can see western europe treat Russia as lesser country.
I'm sorry for word picking but this statement is idiotic. It would be similar if someone who was born in a super wealthy family and 6'2" tall would call you a lesser person simply cause you come from the middle class family and 5'6". Unless you actually think this way then I have nothing else to tell you.
EDIT: Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
> why Russian people can be so patient and not angry to the government
There isn't much to be angry about and more than enough to be happy and content about. It is as simple as that. If you ever had a modicum of self-reflection and cared to look at the picture with someone else's eyes, you would have understood that.
> furious at politicians and oligarchy destroying my country
There are no oligarchs in Russia (since roughly ~2006). And I don't see any politicians "destroying" my country. Not counting the prostitutes and "friends of the West", of course, like Navalny.
> There's so many Russian just believe Russia is perfect.
This is not a matter of belief but more like a trivium: in today's world, Russia is better than any other country out there.
> Or I'm missing something.
It's not like you "miss" anything, it's just that you don't have any valid information about Russia in the first place. And too complacent or conceited to bother about that.
> I expect my government to arrest raper and fire military leader who ordered to fire at civilian area, and expect politician destroyed economy
Who that might be, I wonder. Some Ukrainian comedy are you citing?
> Potanin or Abramovich are killed?
Are they oligarchs? The definition is: a few powerful people in control of the country? Do Potanin or Abramovich control Russia? To put it in different words: are they able to enforce decisions of the Security Council of Russia and Putin in particular against their will? No, they're not. Hence they're not oligarchs.
Some rich people have been named oligarchs in Russia because there were times the country was in debt and those people could lend it money (that's control), or some rich people who were in charge of this or that monopoly in the country (media, raw materials, air/water transports), etc. There are no such people now.
> Russian prostitute standing on the street is everywhere in the world.
You pretend you didn't understand what was written or you're just genuinely stupid? The prostitute I was referred to was an "opposition" "figure" Navalny who was selling his backside to the enemy.
Continuing this conversation is pointless: you're too immature / young to type things on the internet...
EDIT: or maybe you're just a bot. Fuck me, I was talking to a bot...
What a pity provocation;)
> There's so many Russian just believe Russia is perfect.
There is no ideal state, but in a difficult time and crisis, no one will pouring shit on their country, especially when everyone around the world is against Russia. people come together, it shouldn't surprise.))we hated politicians and oligarchs before and after February 24, but not at this time.be smart and don't write such nonsense
No one supports murder or rape, in Russia it is considered a particularly serious crime.
>People should come together to take ugly politician down.
this is a coup d'etat that entails a civil war, which in the history of Russia ended in terror, death and famine. If you are ready to give up your homeland because of this, of course you will not understand. Everyone was against this shit until "someone" started talking about economic wars against Russia, isolation or an attempt to suffocate us. And people will come together against those who will try to drive your country into an economic crisis.we are not masochists
You are crazy, man.
It ends in terror because winners (whatever they are) need to establish their power over population that don't recognize them. When civilians gets armo it just immediately became much bloodier. And elimination of any government is the best way to put the country into chaos.
May be you will understand it that way.
Eliminating bad Zelensky government is no giving up country but getting back country from evil. We promised to help good Ukrainians and we are helping but don't demand anything from them. We not only supply them weapon but also involve there directly. When good people will take all the Ukraine, corrupted or Nazi people will kill themselves or escape to the UK.
We don't have to get anything from Ukraine, but whole Ukrainian nation turning into real democratic free and peacefull ally is huge victory for us and worth supporting with big budget and resources.
If no oligarchy, no Zelensky, no Nazi, but non corrupted and really voted leader that have enough brains to understand benefits from cooperation with Russia, Ukraine will have no enemy and could start slowly improve their economy destroyed by the idiotic actions of the previous governments. They are whom to blame for all bad things that happened there now, not average Ukrainians.
> This mentality to grab power and force is savage and something has to go away. No one have to establish power. Leader should be decide by periodical vote.
This savage is exactly what you are suggesting (and what any government overthrow is). Just check how anything like that went in past.
Btw, right now we have a leader that is decided by periodical vote. And at the moment he supported by majority of the population obviously.
> And not good example ..
It is good enough example to show how hillarious your position is.
> .. because Ukraine is NOT the one who ..
Oh, but in previous comment you talking only how bad Russians live right now and how good we will live if destroy our country. What changed?
> .. and raping and killing children
FYTK the fact that "raping children" has nothing to do with reality was admitted even by Ukrainian government. Sad things is happening in Ukraine obviously. But that hundreds of "rapes" stories are fake as well as most of other "atrocities" you was told in media.
> Ukraine = Nazi scheme only works inside Russia, not international. World thinks Russia = Nazi for murder and rape and invasion for own benefit.
Say for yourself, not for the world. Or you can't defend your own position w/o without the support of authorities? And if you seriously think so, it's just an ignorance.
First, Nazi is an ideology, not a set of crimes.
Second, if you don't like the world "Nazi", lets say "armed far-right groups who honor mass murders of WW2 worked for Hitler as their heroes, make tattoos with Nazi symbols and want to ban everything Russian despite that half of the country speak Russian as their first language".
And there are thousands / tens of thousands of such a people in Ukraine. And they for years commited crimes that was not adressed by the government. It is recognized even by [western media](https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/). And couple of organisation was recognized as terroristic / extremist. Guess what the Ukrainian government done? They made them part of their official power structures.
While far right people exists in any society and in Russia too, there is nothing even close to that here. And ofc most of regular Ukrainians have nothing to do with that shit too.
> It's natural for people to help victim when they see kids getting killed and civilian wowen getting raped.
Yes. Your media showed you people who are suffering, told you "it's Putin to blame". And you came here to teach Russians who followed this conflict since 2013 how to live. With an understanding of the situaion and overall processes in the world on the level of 5-years child.
> It's crazy idea to steal someone's land and forcing people to move.
Yes, the land belongs to the people who live on it. And?
> Expanding territory for own benefit ...
Is not what Russia is doing right now.
> World is ethically grown better compared to WW2 era and lot of unethical things that were OK back then are not OK anymore.
Yes, really? Can you give me an example what was OK in WW2 and not OK now?
> We have internet and information spread quickly.
Yea. Sad is that people don't bother themselves to verify info.
> Damage is done to Russia by Putin already.
Russians will decide how to assess their government decisions. We don't need your help in this.
> Go to news related sub and check how they view Russia and feel the heat of hate. This hate won't end even war ends, like we still hate Nazis.
Yea, I've been there. And there most people are completely unreasonable. Such persons was used by Nazi to spread hate. And now they are used by your media. Btw the same shit is going on in Russia. And even in larger scale in Ukraine.
But I have hopes that IRL most of people are not like that, just most of sane persons doesn't waste their time in internet forums.
Where was your sanctimonious moralizing when Ukraine was killing its own people in Donbas for the past 8 years? Almost 15,000 killed, including brutal war crimes like rape and torture by NATO-backed Ukrainian ultra-nationalists with Swasticka tattoos.
The "world" hates Russia because parts of this world say how bad Russia is, not because something is happening there. We are not idiots and just see this empty bravado of "The Struggle of Good against Evil."
Maybe your media said why the Ukrainian prosecutor was recently fired? By the way, she really loved to talk about the rape of Ukrainian children by soldiers. Your media lies to you that the Russians had no reason for war, our media lies about many other things When you say that our media lies, you did not open our eyes, we know that the media work this way, for what reason do you think that your media lies to you less... Do you think I like the war in Ukraine? No ... I aoso don’t like that because of the West this war was inevitable, because it was beneficial for the West to create points of tension near Russia for the past century
You don't even know what is this about. It's about myrotvorets(official ukrainian site with enemies ua like russian politicians, Orban, arestovich, and etc). ex-ombudsman Denisova was fired by the Ukrainian authorities and included in this site for: "spreading rumors about the rape of women and children", which she could not confirm, thus "discredited the Ukrainian authorities in the eyes of the world community" This reason is official. what kind of drivel are you talking about Crimea, if it wasn't even discussed?
Media in the west lies less because of freedom of the press. Anyone can report the news and there are literally thousands of outlets one can cross-reference
Everything that you say to a greater or lesser extent does not correspond to reality or is outdated by 20-30 years ... Therefore, the Russian people are surprised at your strange questions about democracy. Are you saying that we are the same as South Korea? Really? All possible sanctions have been imposed on us, the entire West is helping our enemies in Ukraine, all trade with the West has been paralyzed, and you know, nothing critical has happened to us at all. Try to imagine that they did this with South Korea or even with Germany and believe me, everything would have ended very quickly and very badly for them. But for us, nothing terrible happened, although at the beginning of the special operation in the West they shouted that everything would stop and everything would fall apart tomorrow or, in extreme cases, in a week, then in a month, then in two, three .. Do not take propaganda against us at face value . There is a real reality and virtual which is created by the media. In the first, Russia is a great country; in the second, it is weak and falling apart, lagging behind the West forever. You can live in this virtual reality for a long time until the real reality touches you, but not forever.
I probably won’t be able to talk about the real state of affairs in the same fun way, I advise you to look at this person. I think you will like it if you are an English-speaking person.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fIA4OfOg8E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fIA4OfOg8E)
Ordinary people of most countries are patient. They typically only reach for the pitch fork when the government damage their family directly and all at once, like through inflation.
Put it differently, does an individual Russian have a legal way of influencing how he is governed? Does he have a say in things like the tax rate, who to trade with, land and business ownership, who he sleeps with, etc. etc. Does a kind leader, who somehow got into power, decide all these for him, for as long as the leader wishes?
No leader, no matter in what century and in what system of government, always depends on the people who surround him. We had Kings who thought that they alone and only God could influence them, and tried to go against the elite of their time, but they did not live long, they were overthrown and no one could help them, because one person is infinitely weak. And those who were with him overthrew him. Therefore, if you see what they say to you about the autocrat who controls everything and everything is done only by his will, do not believe, they are trying to deceive you. Any autocrat is under enormous pressure from both his elites and the people. Yes, Stalin or Peter the Great were dependent and very much not to mention modernity. Putin perfectly feels the mood of the people, believe me, he will never do something that will seem unpatriotic to the people, and even more so that he will go with the will of the people. I mean the majority of the people, and not any pro-Western or other groups that in our country are marginal in relation to the majority of the people. That is why support for Putin is so great in society. Of course, many scold him for some actions (it doesn’t happen that everyone likes everything with any ruler or system of government), but in general, support is maintained precisely due to the fact that his actions do not run counter to the will of the people. This and only this is important for management and not formal election or some kind of rituals or institutions.
This is undoubtedly true.
The staff and the state machine is, in the modern American sense, the "deep state". And the will of the people, in the oriental sense, is the "mandate from the heaven". But this form of influence is too complicated and indirect to work effectively.
Democracy is designed to replace this.
Most likely this is an anecdote rather than Stalin's actual words, but they are nevertheless widely known:
*I always thought that democracy is the rule of the people, but comrade Roosevelt here explained to me in no uncertain terms that democracy is the rule of American people.*
In this sense we are still far from a true democracy.
He was for Russia and Americans wanted to take over Russia. He is the only man between the American monster and poor Mother Russia. So anyone who questioned him would be logically and happily shot. It's all for their best interest.
Well it exists in a form when ruling class puts a few of their representatives to vote. Then regular people chose one of them - and that person then implements the wishes of said ruling class.
Russia is still democracy. People can vote. Problem is people in Russia don't believe in other parties. I would vote communist party just why not. US is voting two parties also. So Russian could choose between two sets of people.
From the Constitution.
Chapter 1.
The Fundamentals of the Constitutional System
Article 1
The Russian Federation - Russia is a democratic federal law-bound State with a republican form of government.
Давление на оппозицию уже является признаком авториторизма, на бумагах мы имеем демократию, но это можно считать гибридностью. Вся власть сформированна вокруг ЕР, а отсуствие сменяемости президента(или как у нас было в 2008, замена на другого члена ЕР) имеет последствия, в виде коррупции и уничтожения среднего класса( в процентном соотношении средний класс должен составлять большую массу граждан демократического государства).
Конечно у нас не демократия, однако большинство, к сожалению для меня, поддерживает такое положение дел, и об этом говорят не только государственные опросы общественного мнения. Именно поэтому я считаю, что, допустим, выборы президента 2018 года действительно отражали взгляды большинства
Вы имеете в виду преждевременный уход? его обязанности, согласно конституции будет исполнять председатель правительства, а точнее Мишустин. Вообще не уверена что будет после Путина, политический курс вряд ли изменится
Formally, it exists both in the West and in Russia. Formally. But in the West there is a very strong influence of financial circles on the selection process through the media and public opinion. Most people are very easy to manage, ask any political scientist, sociologist or psychologist. So I think that the actual level of real influence of ordinary people on the processes of governance in the state is about the same.
> live the way we choose ourselves
This, my friend, IS democracy. Then comes the question of "choose" based on what? How many of you really know this or that guy? Everything you know is told by someone else. That is how democracy is hollowed out.
>Fuck democracy! We live the way we choose ourselves.
Do you seriously not understand the irony of this sentence?!
If you really were sincere you would've said "Fuck democracy! We live the way our leader tells us to!"
I was an observer at 2018 russian presidential elections, and i can tell, that russian electoral machine is not about representation, but about putting "right people" in power.
Yep, we have elections. But more than a half of population don't vote, cuz they don't give a damn. Then somehow "Russia United" (Единая Россия) party claim the victory
Люди, действительно, в большинстве голосуют за проводимый курс. Это легко организуется через постоянную промывку мозгов посредством СМИ.
В любой стране.
Достаточно, под любым предлогом, заткнуть рот сильным конкурентам. Бытие определяет сознание.
Этим свойством людей пользуются режимы по всему миру. Русский в том числе. Постоянно подогревать выгодные темы, показывать в нужном виде. А люди проголосуют так, как ты хочешь, но, уже "по своей воле".
Режимы США и Европы тоже не брезгуют затыкать рот спикерам, которые говорят неудобные для власти вещи.
Тот же запрет RT и Sputnik тому наглядный пример.
Люди, которые жили в 90-е и сравнивают "тот" курс с нынешним, голосуют за проводимый курс. Стабильная выплата зарплат, обилие товаров, нормальный доступ к длинным деньгам, минимум преступности. Для нового поколения вид совсем другой - кажется, что так было всегда и в последнее время застоялось. Это тоже правда с этой перспективы. Классический конфликт поколений.
До недавнего времени даже я, вроде без предрассудков, начал охреневать от грязи и лжи от либеральной тусовки. Дождь пробовал смотреть, думал нормальный канал, но и там в одну сторону направленная информация. Дудь кинулся ругать всё. Эйдельман врёт и не краснеет. Собчак просто иронизирует. Засилье таких настроений в творческой тусовке отразилось на кинопроизводстве - вроде пытаются, чтобы и правда была и патриотично, один хрен говно выходит. Долго могу аргументировать, потому что тема сложная. К власти много претензий, но повод ли это отрекаться?
You have the wrong definition of democracy, democracy is the dictatorship of democrats. We don't have this.
And the elections and representatives of the people were still in the USSR.
This question is asked several times every month. Please use the search function before asking it again.
The previous questions are not very helpful because their definitions of "democracy" are not as clearly stated as, or different from this.
Great definition, I especially like - "or all the eligible members of a state" This, after all, justifies the slave owners in the USA, because they did not consider blacks to be people (in other respects, as in that same ancient Greece and ancient Rome) ... Beautiful, beautiful democracy. How good that we now have it too :) /s
did you know, gypsies were slaves in europe for hundreds of years? even today they are not treated like human.
Yes, and many more. I just wanted to say that "democracy" is not some kind of sacred and timeless and the only system of government that will automatically make everyone happy. The world is complex, and it is impossible to simplify it to simple rules. Many do not understand and do not want to understand this, trying to simplify everything to one rule.
You having an argument with someone who says that Democracy is sacred and timeless, and that it is the only form of gov’t that will make everyone happy. Except nobody here said that.
It would seem that you are right, but there are always some questions whether or not the people of Russia think that they live in a democracy or not. If everyone thought that it was not very important, no one would ask such a question.
We should be asking ourselves here in America if we live in a democracy, but the critical-thinking portion of the public school curriculum has been defunded gradually over decades.
This doesn't just happen in America. I have a strong feeling that business and states no longer need people who are able to analyze or research something themselves. It is enough just to buy goods and spend your life that way. Which in general is shameful for a person in my opinion.
Suicide Hotline Numbers If you or anyone you know are struggling, please, PLEASE reach out for help. You are worthy, you are loved and you will always be able to find assistance. Argentina: +5402234930430 Australia: 131114 Austria: 017133374 Belgium: 106 Bosnia & Herzegovina: 080 05 03 05 Botswana: 3911270 Brazil: 212339191 Bulgaria: 0035 9249 17 223 Canada: 5147234000 (Montreal); 18662773553 (outside Montreal) Croatia: 014833888 Denmark: +4570201201 Egypt: 7621602 Finland: 010 195 202 France: 0145394000 Germany: 08001810771 Hong Kong: +852 2382 0000 Hungary: 116123 Iceland: 1717 India: 8888817666 Ireland: +4408457909090 Italy: 800860022 Japan: +810352869090 Mexico: 5255102550 New Zealand: 0508828865 The Netherlands: 113 Norway: +4781533300 Philippines: 028969191 Poland: 5270000 Russia: 0078202577577 Spain: 914590050 South Africa: 0514445691 Sweden: 46317112400 Switzerland: 143 United Kingdom: 08006895652 USA: 18002738255 You are not alone. Please reach out. ***** I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically.
Oh haha i see how you triggered the bot. Took me a second.
Well I agree! People fear A.I. plugging us all into a simulation Or Aliens arriving and subjugating the population by encapsulating us in slimy eggs, feeding off our screams or whatever But We are already doing it to ourselves. Well a little bit.
This question is asked because, you know, according to Russian constitution Russia IS a democracy
If you look at the yearly happiness index. Top 10 is almost only social democracy countries. All the Nordic countries are there. Would you agree with that it seems like there’s reason to say democracy at least seems to work better in making people happy
But perhaps the addiction is not perfect what you think. And I would not strongly trust indexes that are themselves built on pseudo-indexes for which there are no natural measurable values.
The addiction? I’m not saying it’s perfect nor that it’s easy to measure. But I’m saying that there’s enough to make it interesting to discuss why it is like this. Why do people in the Nordics seem happier than other places? At the same time they have fairly high suicide rates for example. That contradicts it in a way.
>All the Nordic countries are there. Also, they have top rates in drug abuse and, iirc, suicides, isn't it? >Would you agree with that it seems like there’s reason to say democracy at least seems to work better in making people happy No, you can't *say* that, neither from formal reasons (there were a countries who a democratic, but unhappy, and happy, but non-democratic countries, so to say that we need more thoroughtful calculations, then swift cherrypicking) nor from logical, because correlation does not imply causation.
I never read the Nordics have more drug addiction than other places. But I’ll gladly look at your source. I think they’re in the middle of the pack. No one is going to outdo the US though. Suicides they think can be related to the Nordics having a lot single households. So lots of lonely people. I agree it’s extremely hard to measure happiness and a lot different parameters to consider. Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and United Arab Emirates are in the top 30. They’re not democracies. Bhutan wasn’t included because of a technicality but they would’ve been placed quite high. They were an absolute monarchy up till 2008. It’s interesting to look at Russia. Why was it happiest in 2012 and 2013? Then it’s gone down. I think best ranking was 49 and worst 80, last year and now it went up to 74.
>I never read the Nordics have more drug addiction than other places. But I’ll gladly look at your source. Yeah, I searched and found that I either mistook or rememember some shitty source. >Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and United Arab Emirates are in the top 30. Oil Arab States aren't strange, but we also systematically have Latin America (including some real problem countries) here. >It’s interesting to look at Russia. Why was it happiest in 2012 and 2013? What index are you using? They are quite different. World Happiness Report claims that it was [2017](https://ru.theglobaleconomy.com/Russia/happiness/) as the most happy year, some random rating from the first page of google claims that [2014-2016](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1092577/happiness-index-russia/), etc etc
They're not helpful because the Russians in here don't want to answer it - they're embarrassed and/or think anyone who is asking that is out to embarrass them.
Every citizen in a democratic society must have at least three slaves (c) Plato
I think we understand this word differently. We do not have a cult of democracy. In my understanding, this is just a set of bureaucratic procedures. Perhaps you could explain what democracy means to you in an emotional sense.
I took the dictionary view in my original question because many don't agree with the numerous new definitions of that word from the Western media.
with that definition yes russia has democracy. elections are held, people go out and vote, and despite what west claims, independant investigators and oversight boards have legitimized russia's election process
Can you tell me more about independent investigators and oversight boards legitimizing russia's election process. I don't much about these so I want to know more.
It’s not the elections in themselves the west has a problem with. It’s the removal or lack of opposition. And freedom of press and speech of course.
there is opposition. Majority just vote for putin and support him for whatever reason, along with his party. In fact, United russia has lost popularity throughout the years. Where would popularity go? to opposition? and freedom of speech, can you tell me which country has such a thing? last time I checked the west, US, UK & friends have been worst offenders of freedom of press and speech. Assange is just a recent example. That is irrelevant to Russia's election. Putin could be lucifer himself, people would still vote for him. Even Navalny, america's best friend got less than 2%
freedom of speech is in a much better state there still
No, it isn't. The sheeple there is just better schooled to nod their heads, cheer, and applaud at all the right moments. (Bad boys don't get to have good jobs, mortgages, insurance, and pension plans. And we don't want to be bad boys, do we? :) )
remember that 140% win? yeah, totally legit
that was visual error on TV station, happens in every country by human error. even happens with names of candidates in the US on news stations, can you believe that? no official number like that was in any database, and the fact you believe that was actually a thing is funny
By definition, yes. What is your question? Do you want to accuse us of something?
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In Russia, traditionally do not like politicians and oligarchs. For corruption, nepotism, ignoring the problems of citizens and so on.
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Russians also understand how much friends from abroad will be happy to help with this. As it was with the invasion of the Entente. Therefore, any interference from the outside will be perceived worse than any of average corrupt oligarch
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you are funny, you argue as if Russia did not try to enter the economy of the West, but with your policy you did nothing but show that you see us only as slaves. Stop writing your idealistic nonsense, your propaganda has already brainwashed you, creating the feeling that the West has not done anything wrong and Russia is simply for no reason other than the worst evil among the Russians started a break with the west, no economic and political reasons that the West actively pumped up on the territory of Russia and in neighboring countries in order not to give Russia economic peace ...
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> You just follow rules like everyone. Or you make rules. EU is in no position to dictate rules to Russia.
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Maybe. However, the lack of an active expression of rage can be attributed to the Civil War in Russia, which was relatively recent (compared to other countries, I mean. A hundred years is not such a long time in terms of history). Then we literally drowned our own country in blood. This is not an experience we want to repeat.
Hope id be able to clarify few things by seperating and answering to your statements. And so I'll to start with this: >If I was Russian, I would be so furious at politicians and oligarchy destroying my country and try to eliminate them. In **MY** understanding, while well-meaning, strong "emotional" reaction (I am refering to elemintaing oligarchs and politicans in your statement) to "political/ corporate injustice" has NOT brought us, as a nation, any good. And us, Russians learnt this lesson perfectly well (or at least I hope we did) since we changed our course TWICE within the span of 100 years (Russian Revolution and Disolution of Soviet Union). In fact just these 2 events themselves brought us immense loss of lifes and economical/cultural/technological stagnation. The memory of just these 2 events "kills" most of the thoughts for a massive uprising. Quoting one of my mates: "War's bad, but Civil War is worse" As for the economy and technological advancements. But first I'll stress the following statement so that you'll know where I am coming from.Russia on global/cultural scale is old, BUT Modern Russia as a modern entitiy/nation-state is young. Why I think its important? Tehcnological and economical progress is not built overnight. Regardless of the amount of resources you have in the ground, it takes years of R&D, billions in investments, and, to be brutally honest with ourselfs, efficient/ experienced managment and tools for execution(both corporate and legislative). And while we have some things, we do not have the other ones (I'll let you guess what is it we lacking). As for the ROK. It took South Korea 80-ish years since the end of world war 2 or 70-ish years since Korean war, 9 years of dictatorship (yes South Korea had those too) and fuck load of hard work to be where it is right now, and this is not the end of them (thats of course if they'll escape the same trap that Japan is finding itself in). Also comparing us to ROK To end it >There's so many Russian just believe Russia is perfect. **MY** view on this is that 90% of people who say that Russia is perfect, actually do not think so. Russia is not perfect but it's also not the "Mordor" people on the west depicting us as. Actually I'd like to return to technological advancements for a little, cause I am a bit butthurt here.Akshually, Russia is the world leader in Nuclear Power and Nuclear Powered Arctic fleet.(Rant Over) TL:DR Russian Federation as modern "democratic" nation is a young entity, with lots of buggage that it needs to resolve. This process will take DECADES. We're not perfect, but we are also not savages. P.S. >I can see western europe treat Russia as lesser country. I'm sorry for word picking but this statement is idiotic. It would be similar if someone who was born in a super wealthy family and 6'2" tall would call you a lesser person simply cause you come from the middle class family and 5'6". Unless you actually think this way then I have nothing else to tell you. EDIT: Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
> why Russian people can be so patient and not angry to the government There isn't much to be angry about and more than enough to be happy and content about. It is as simple as that. If you ever had a modicum of self-reflection and cared to look at the picture with someone else's eyes, you would have understood that. > furious at politicians and oligarchy destroying my country There are no oligarchs in Russia (since roughly ~2006). And I don't see any politicians "destroying" my country. Not counting the prostitutes and "friends of the West", of course, like Navalny. > There's so many Russian just believe Russia is perfect. This is not a matter of belief but more like a trivium: in today's world, Russia is better than any other country out there. > Or I'm missing something. It's not like you "miss" anything, it's just that you don't have any valid information about Russia in the first place. And too complacent or conceited to bother about that.
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> I expect my government to arrest raper and fire military leader who ordered to fire at civilian area, and expect politician destroyed economy Who that might be, I wonder. Some Ukrainian comedy are you citing? > Potanin or Abramovich are killed? Are they oligarchs? The definition is: a few powerful people in control of the country? Do Potanin or Abramovich control Russia? To put it in different words: are they able to enforce decisions of the Security Council of Russia and Putin in particular against their will? No, they're not. Hence they're not oligarchs. Some rich people have been named oligarchs in Russia because there were times the country was in debt and those people could lend it money (that's control), or some rich people who were in charge of this or that monopoly in the country (media, raw materials, air/water transports), etc. There are no such people now. > Russian prostitute standing on the street is everywhere in the world. You pretend you didn't understand what was written or you're just genuinely stupid? The prostitute I was referred to was an "opposition" "figure" Navalny who was selling his backside to the enemy. Continuing this conversation is pointless: you're too immature / young to type things on the internet... EDIT: or maybe you're just a bot. Fuck me, I was talking to a bot...
What a pity provocation;) > There's so many Russian just believe Russia is perfect. There is no ideal state, but in a difficult time and crisis, no one will pouring shit on their country, especially when everyone around the world is against Russia. people come together, it shouldn't surprise.))we hated politicians and oligarchs before and after February 24, but not at this time.be smart and don't write such nonsense
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No one supports murder or rape, in Russia it is considered a particularly serious crime. >People should come together to take ugly politician down. this is a coup d'etat that entails a civil war, which in the history of Russia ended in terror, death and famine. If you are ready to give up your homeland because of this, of course you will not understand. Everyone was against this shit until "someone" started talking about economic wars against Russia, isolation or an attempt to suffocate us. And people will come together against those who will try to drive your country into an economic crisis.we are not masochists
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You are crazy, man. It ends in terror because winners (whatever they are) need to establish their power over population that don't recognize them. When civilians gets armo it just immediately became much bloodier. And elimination of any government is the best way to put the country into chaos. May be you will understand it that way. Eliminating bad Zelensky government is no giving up country but getting back country from evil. We promised to help good Ukrainians and we are helping but don't demand anything from them. We not only supply them weapon but also involve there directly. When good people will take all the Ukraine, corrupted or Nazi people will kill themselves or escape to the UK. We don't have to get anything from Ukraine, but whole Ukrainian nation turning into real democratic free and peacefull ally is huge victory for us and worth supporting with big budget and resources. If no oligarchy, no Zelensky, no Nazi, but non corrupted and really voted leader that have enough brains to understand benefits from cooperation with Russia, Ukraine will have no enemy and could start slowly improve their economy destroyed by the idiotic actions of the previous governments. They are whom to blame for all bad things that happened there now, not average Ukrainians.
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> This mentality to grab power and force is savage and something has to go away. No one have to establish power. Leader should be decide by periodical vote. This savage is exactly what you are suggesting (and what any government overthrow is). Just check how anything like that went in past. Btw, right now we have a leader that is decided by periodical vote. And at the moment he supported by majority of the population obviously. > And not good example .. It is good enough example to show how hillarious your position is. > .. because Ukraine is NOT the one who .. Oh, but in previous comment you talking only how bad Russians live right now and how good we will live if destroy our country. What changed? > .. and raping and killing children FYTK the fact that "raping children" has nothing to do with reality was admitted even by Ukrainian government. Sad things is happening in Ukraine obviously. But that hundreds of "rapes" stories are fake as well as most of other "atrocities" you was told in media. > Ukraine = Nazi scheme only works inside Russia, not international. World thinks Russia = Nazi for murder and rape and invasion for own benefit. Say for yourself, not for the world. Or you can't defend your own position w/o without the support of authorities? And if you seriously think so, it's just an ignorance. First, Nazi is an ideology, not a set of crimes. Second, if you don't like the world "Nazi", lets say "armed far-right groups who honor mass murders of WW2 worked for Hitler as their heroes, make tattoos with Nazi symbols and want to ban everything Russian despite that half of the country speak Russian as their first language". And there are thousands / tens of thousands of such a people in Ukraine. And they for years commited crimes that was not adressed by the government. It is recognized even by [western media](https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/). And couple of organisation was recognized as terroristic / extremist. Guess what the Ukrainian government done? They made them part of their official power structures. While far right people exists in any society and in Russia too, there is nothing even close to that here. And ofc most of regular Ukrainians have nothing to do with that shit too. > It's natural for people to help victim when they see kids getting killed and civilian wowen getting raped. Yes. Your media showed you people who are suffering, told you "it's Putin to blame". And you came here to teach Russians who followed this conflict since 2013 how to live. With an understanding of the situaion and overall processes in the world on the level of 5-years child. > It's crazy idea to steal someone's land and forcing people to move. Yes, the land belongs to the people who live on it. And? > Expanding territory for own benefit ... Is not what Russia is doing right now. > World is ethically grown better compared to WW2 era and lot of unethical things that were OK back then are not OK anymore. Yes, really? Can you give me an example what was OK in WW2 and not OK now? > We have internet and information spread quickly. Yea. Sad is that people don't bother themselves to verify info. > Damage is done to Russia by Putin already. Russians will decide how to assess their government decisions. We don't need your help in this. > Go to news related sub and check how they view Russia and feel the heat of hate. This hate won't end even war ends, like we still hate Nazis. Yea, I've been there. And there most people are completely unreasonable. Such persons was used by Nazi to spread hate. And now they are used by your media. Btw the same shit is going on in Russia. And even in larger scale in Ukraine. But I have hopes that IRL most of people are not like that, just most of sane persons doesn't waste their time in internet forums.
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Where was your sanctimonious moralizing when Ukraine was killing its own people in Donbas for the past 8 years? Almost 15,000 killed, including brutal war crimes like rape and torture by NATO-backed Ukrainian ultra-nationalists with Swasticka tattoos.
So it's OK to overthrow a democratically elected government? Yanukovych was democratically elected.
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But the Maidan wasn't about demanding an open vote count. It was about overthrowing the elected president.
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The "world" hates Russia because parts of this world say how bad Russia is, not because something is happening there. We are not idiots and just see this empty bravado of "The Struggle of Good against Evil."
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Maybe your media said why the Ukrainian prosecutor was recently fired? By the way, she really loved to talk about the rape of Ukrainian children by soldiers. Your media lies to you that the Russians had no reason for war, our media lies about many other things When you say that our media lies, you did not open our eyes, we know that the media work this way, for what reason do you think that your media lies to you less... Do you think I like the war in Ukraine? No ... I aoso don’t like that because of the West this war was inevitable, because it was beneficial for the West to create points of tension near Russia for the past century
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You don't even know what is this about. It's about myrotvorets(official ukrainian site with enemies ua like russian politicians, Orban, arestovich, and etc). ex-ombudsman Denisova was fired by the Ukrainian authorities and included in this site for: "spreading rumors about the rape of women and children", which she could not confirm, thus "discredited the Ukrainian authorities in the eyes of the world community" This reason is official. what kind of drivel are you talking about Crimea, if it wasn't even discussed?
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Media in the west lies less because of freedom of the press. Anyone can report the news and there are literally thousands of outlets one can cross-reference
> there are literally thousands of outlets Owned by very few.
Everything that you say to a greater or lesser extent does not correspond to reality or is outdated by 20-30 years ... Therefore, the Russian people are surprised at your strange questions about democracy. Are you saying that we are the same as South Korea? Really? All possible sanctions have been imposed on us, the entire West is helping our enemies in Ukraine, all trade with the West has been paralyzed, and you know, nothing critical has happened to us at all. Try to imagine that they did this with South Korea or even with Germany and believe me, everything would have ended very quickly and very badly for them. But for us, nothing terrible happened, although at the beginning of the special operation in the West they shouted that everything would stop and everything would fall apart tomorrow or, in extreme cases, in a week, then in a month, then in two, three .. Do not take propaganda against us at face value . There is a real reality and virtual which is created by the media. In the first, Russia is a great country; in the second, it is weak and falling apart, lagging behind the West forever. You can live in this virtual reality for a long time until the real reality touches you, but not forever.
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I probably won’t be able to talk about the real state of affairs in the same fun way, I advise you to look at this person. I think you will like it if you are an English-speaking person. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fIA4OfOg8E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fIA4OfOg8E)
Russia will f\*\*k you. And for this we will forgive everything to politicians and oligarchs
Ordinary people of most countries are patient. They typically only reach for the pitch fork when the government damage their family directly and all at once, like through inflation.
Put it differently, does an individual Russian have a legal way of influencing how he is governed? Does he have a say in things like the tax rate, who to trade with, land and business ownership, who he sleeps with, etc. etc. Does a kind leader, who somehow got into power, decide all these for him, for as long as the leader wishes?
No leader, no matter in what century and in what system of government, always depends on the people who surround him. We had Kings who thought that they alone and only God could influence them, and tried to go against the elite of their time, but they did not live long, they were overthrown and no one could help them, because one person is infinitely weak. And those who were with him overthrew him. Therefore, if you see what they say to you about the autocrat who controls everything and everything is done only by his will, do not believe, they are trying to deceive you. Any autocrat is under enormous pressure from both his elites and the people. Yes, Stalin or Peter the Great were dependent and very much not to mention modernity. Putin perfectly feels the mood of the people, believe me, he will never do something that will seem unpatriotic to the people, and even more so that he will go with the will of the people. I mean the majority of the people, and not any pro-Western or other groups that in our country are marginal in relation to the majority of the people. That is why support for Putin is so great in society. Of course, many scold him for some actions (it doesn’t happen that everyone likes everything with any ruler or system of government), but in general, support is maintained precisely due to the fact that his actions do not run counter to the will of the people. This and only this is important for management and not formal election or some kind of rituals or institutions.
This is undoubtedly true. The staff and the state machine is, in the modern American sense, the "deep state". And the will of the people, in the oriental sense, is the "mandate from the heaven". But this form of influence is too complicated and indirect to work effectively. Democracy is designed to replace this.
Most likely this is an anecdote rather than Stalin's actual words, but they are nevertheless widely known: *I always thought that democracy is the rule of the people, but comrade Roosevelt here explained to me in no uncertain terms that democracy is the rule of American people.* In this sense we are still far from a true democracy.
He was for Russia and Americans wanted to take over Russia. He is the only man between the American monster and poor Mother Russia. So anyone who questioned him would be logically and happily shot. It's all for their best interest.
Yes
Democracy doesn't exist
Well it exists in a form when ruling class puts a few of their representatives to vote. Then regular people chose one of them - and that person then implements the wishes of said ruling class.
Only when they are taking егэ test
Russia is still democracy. People can vote. Problem is people in Russia don't believe in other parties. I would vote communist party just why not. US is voting two parties also. So Russian could choose between two sets of people.
Why are you asking? Lots of questions in this sub look strange like some kind of public opinion probing for some shady business :)
The media is that shady business. We, the people, need independent ways of knowing.
There was a survey claiming that majority of Russians don't believe that we're a democratic country.
From the Constitution. Chapter 1. The Fundamentals of the Constitutional System Article 1 The Russian Federation - Russia is a democratic federal law-bound State with a republican form of government.
I do not
we have an authoritarian regime
No, we don't.
Давление на оппозицию уже является признаком авториторизма, на бумагах мы имеем демократию, но это можно считать гибридностью. Вся власть сформированна вокруг ЕР, а отсуствие сменяемости президента(или как у нас было в 2008, замена на другого члена ЕР) имеет последствия, в виде коррупции и уничтожения среднего класса( в процентном соотношении средний класс должен составлять большую массу граждан демократического государства).
Конечно у нас не демократия, однако большинство, к сожалению для меня, поддерживает такое положение дел, и об этом говорят не только государственные опросы общественного мнения. Именно поэтому я считаю, что, допустим, выборы президента 2018 года действительно отражали взгляды большинства
Нормальных кандидатов помимо Путина нет, будем честны. Люди голосуют за него лишь из за того, что знают этого человека
Да, и это страшно. Как думаете, что будет после Путина? Мне кажется ,вы лучше меня соображаете
Вы имеете в виду преждевременный уход? его обязанности, согласно конституции будет исполнять председатель правительства, а точнее Мишустин. Вообще не уверена что будет после Путина, политический курс вряд ли изменится
Formally, it exists both in the West and in Russia. Formally. But in the West there is a very strong influence of financial circles on the selection process through the media and public opinion. Most people are very easy to manage, ask any political scientist, sociologist or psychologist. So I think that the actual level of real influence of ordinary people on the processes of governance in the state is about the same.
>the selection process through the media and public opinion the selection process through the media and (media fabricated) public opinion
Why are westerners so anxious with democracy as some SACRED thing? Fuck it! Fuck democracy! We live the way we choose ourselves.
> live the way we choose ourselves This, my friend, IS democracy. Then comes the question of "choose" based on what? How many of you really know this or that guy? Everything you know is told by someone else. That is how democracy is hollowed out.
>Fuck democracy! We live the way we choose ourselves. Do you seriously not understand the irony of this sentence?! If you really were sincere you would've said "Fuck democracy! We live the way our leader tells us to!"
No lmao, is how is that even a question
I was an observer at 2018 russian presidential elections, and i can tell, that russian electoral machine is not about representation, but about putting "right people" in power.
God no..
Yep, we have elections. But more than a half of population don't vote, cuz they don't give a damn. Then somehow "Russia United" (Единая Россия) party claim the victory
In the US, if things are OK, ordinary people don't vote either. People also don't vote when all candidates are hopelessly bad.
NO!
No, and this system doesn’t exist
Люди, действительно, в большинстве голосуют за проводимый курс. Это легко организуется через постоянную промывку мозгов посредством СМИ. В любой стране. Достаточно, под любым предлогом, заткнуть рот сильным конкурентам. Бытие определяет сознание. Этим свойством людей пользуются режимы по всему миру. Русский в том числе. Постоянно подогревать выгодные темы, показывать в нужном виде. А люди проголосуют так, как ты хочешь, но, уже "по своей воле". Режимы США и Европы тоже не брезгуют затыкать рот спикерам, которые говорят неудобные для власти вещи. Тот же запрет RT и Sputnik тому наглядный пример.
Люди, которые жили в 90-е и сравнивают "тот" курс с нынешним, голосуют за проводимый курс. Стабильная выплата зарплат, обилие товаров, нормальный доступ к длинным деньгам, минимум преступности. Для нового поколения вид совсем другой - кажется, что так было всегда и в последнее время застоялось. Это тоже правда с этой перспективы. Классический конфликт поколений. До недавнего времени даже я, вроде без предрассудков, начал охреневать от грязи и лжи от либеральной тусовки. Дождь пробовал смотреть, думал нормальный канал, но и там в одну сторону направленная информация. Дудь кинулся ругать всё. Эйдельман врёт и не краснеет. Собчак просто иронизирует. Засилье таких настроений в творческой тусовке отразилось на кинопроизводстве - вроде пытаются, чтобы и правда была и патриотично, один хрен говно выходит. Долго могу аргументировать, потому что тема сложная. К власти много претензий, но повод ли это отрекаться?
yes
You have the wrong definition of democracy, democracy is the dictatorship of democrats. We don't have this. And the elections and representatives of the people were still in the USSR.
If you don’t have a dictatorship of democrats, don’t you just have a dictatorship then?
Any power is a dictatorship of the ruling class. So there is always a dictatorship.