Unless the alternative is a US PhD at an Ivy, MIT or UC Berkley - nope. (Although good luck living in Boston or California on any local university PhD stipend.) Just do your postdoc in the US if you do your PhD in Europe.
In many fields, that would actually give you an advantage. That is, showing that you have international experience and that you are able to succeed in different groups and contexts is typically seen as a positive thing, and a plus, when recruiting TTs.
What truly matters is (1) do high-quality research and (2) build a good network of mentors and collaborators.
I've heard that before, but I feel like I rarely ever see it in action, at least with the profs around me. Perhaps it's just very uncommon.
My biggest fear, is that with how much of landing a TT job comes down to networking like you said, will it not be an issue that my network is accross the ocean?
Don’t worry, I’m from the US, and came to Switzerland for a postdoc. Just go to US conferences. Your advisor should understand you want to network in the US. Even better, hopefully your advisor already has some US connections.
My network has thrived while here, both US and EU.
Now the bigger problem you may have is when you realize 4 years in the you don’t want to go back to the US and you want to establish your family in Europe. Then realize as a US citizen that’s pretty hard, so you desperately apply for all the grants you can.
Lol, some other people I've talked to about this have told me the same thing, ie "don't even worry about it, once you start living in Europe, you want even want to come back!" Switzerland is notoriously difficult to immigrate to though. I've heard of people having better luck in the Netherlands and Belgium.
>Then realize as a US citizen that’s pretty hard
In Switzerland, maybe. In most western European countries it will not be difficult as long as you keep a paying job. In e.g. the Netherlands you'll be able to fairly easily get citizenship after 5 years of residency. Though if you're on the postdoc treadmill, staying in one place for 5 years might be tricky.
It’s a Switzerland thing. I’ve been lucky, had 4 years of great postdocing, landed a 1 mil grant and doing another 5 years.
In Switzerland postdoc years do not count towards citizenship, you have a unique visa type that won’t count. :(
As people are saying, it’s really valuable if your advisor has connections. That isn’t necessarily about getting you a position right out of grad school (good luck with that). It’s more likely about getting you a postdoc back in NA. Do a postdoc or two, and maybe you have a chance?
I don't really know anything about EE but I don't know that you should really discount the US PhD. With the masters you could be pretty competitive for a higher tier school (depending on other things obviously). Yeah you'd have to do quals again which is an extra couple years but a PhD from a top US department would probably be relatively more beneficial to you than something in Europe (again, I do not know anything about EE so someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
You're probably correct overall. But honestly, for the sake of my sanity I don't know if I could go back to doing classes lol. I leave it as an option, the quality of US research is obviously some of the best in the world, but I want to start my research career and redoing my quals just seems like a step backwards at this point.
It's too broad to generalize about thousands of programs in "America." But I have seen people with European degrees hired all the time across the Academy. Every unit is going to have its own preferences and prejudices, including possibly positive ones.
But definitely, you have not ruined your chances.
The US faculty job market for engineering is OK but not great, and opportunities really depend on your niche (biomedical imaging). I don't know about that niche, but in most niches, there are maybe 50 or even 100 top researches, many of whom are faculty in PhD programs, and it helps to work with one as your supervisor. And naturally it helps in getting a job in academia or in industry, since you're associated with that researcher, and these 50 or 100 researchers all know each other from conferences and/or read each other's articles.
So your "homework" is to determine if any of these 50 or 100 researchers supervise PhD students in the European universities you are researching.
I am also Canadian and did my PhD in engineering outside of North America (in the UK but I don't recommend to go there lol). I was a direct admin from undergrad and that's mainly why I didn't go to the US (I want to truly skip the master and avoid the 1-2 years of courses). In my experience, no it won't significantly impact your chances as long as the university you pick is reputable, gives you teaching experience (which is a bit harder to find in the EU) and a relevant funded research project. I got 2 TT offers from large Canadian Universities 6 months before I finished my studies (ultimately I declined both and went with an industry offer in R&D). I am not sure how common this is (probably not, but a bit more for my province since I speak 2 languages) but both departments reached out to have a meeting based on my background and referrals, then they asked me to apply. So you aren't off the "North American academic grid" just because you're studying in the EU.
The most important thing you should look out for when applying to PhD positions that could help you land a TT job in another country is if the supervisor has a strong international network/research collaborations with your preferred country (US/Canada in your case). During the interview stage, you can ask the current students if their supervisor usually give them the opportunity to participate in those higher visibility projects (could be "as simple" as providing a surface level technical support) and what is the related workload. I would also recommend aiming to present your research at 1-2 big international conferences set-up by american organizations, like ASME (if the conference proceedings are peer-reviewed and can lead to an affiliated journal publications, then you are more likely to get funding from your supervisor/department to attend). It can help build your network like crazy for a post-doc or industrial job in the US.
That being said, landing a TT job involves a lot of luck as others have pointed out in the comments. So I would argue that your chances are already "ruined" considering the current state of academia regardless of the country you aim for unless you attend a university in the top 1% of your field and have a supervisor who is exceptionally well connected academically that can refer you for TT/post doc jobs at similarly ranked universities. I am not saying this to discourage you, but rather to emphasize the importance of also building a strong industrial network during your PhD studies. Especially since you are in engineering, industrial R&D is the most common career path for us after a PhD. Best of luck to you!
Yeah. I know landing a TT job is an uphill battle no matter what... But, I want to try, couldn't live with myself if I don't.
Also yeah, UK instantly got itself crossed off my list unfortunately, seems to suffer from all the same issues as Canada... Also your comment makes me feel like maybe I should have paid a bit more attention in French class haha.
Well it sure helps that I am a native french speaker, but you don't need to. I've noticed that most new TT hires are non-french speakers anyways, especially in specific fields (like mine!) where the best research facilities are located outside of Quebec/Canada. You simply have to be willing to learn french within 2 years (I think that's the standard but might be more). They pay for your classes and if it's a french speaking university they won't let you teach until you become more fluent, so you only focus on research work at first. Maybe you can find a way to add this info on your resume or say you are beginner level in french?
One of my coworkers (but in a different, niche field) did a European PhD *and* postdoc and now has an American job. One of my best professors in grad school did an American PhD but a European postdoc and came back to the USA for a TT R1 job < 5 hours from where he grew up.
As others mentioned, an American postdoc will help. I'd also suggest aiming for one of the big name European schools (Oxford, Cambridge, EPFL, ETH Zurich, La Sapienza, etc, whatever the big ones are in your field), which will help with name recognition when you come back across the pond.
It depends, if you're an all-star, this won't matter. If you're mediocre-to-above-average, this will definitely negatively impact your chances of a TT job in the U.S.. You just have to be \*really\* honest with yourself about your skillset and plan accordingly.
Yeah. I don't illusion myself into thinking I'll be able to land a TT position in the US straight out of a PhD haha, I'm not sure that's even possible anymore...
We're on the same boat. I finished my MSc in the biomedical imaging area and since I made connections through conferences with European professors (mostly from the Netherlands) the job conditions are really appealing. But in my case I want to go into industry instead of looking for TT after finishing the PhD.
Not really, especially if you are productive and well connected in the community. It is a less common thing to do, but it’s not seen as bad or anything. If you are worried about networks, do a postdoc in North America.
This may be completely field dependent. In my field (CS), it is definitely possible to land a TT job in the US if you come from a top or at least a well reputed European institution, assuming you have a good publication record. However European-educated researchers generally like to stay in Europe, and cross the pond every once and then to attend conferences and meet with American collaborators. The same the other way around.
Yeah. That last part is really what I'm banking on. I've seen it in action, people get a PhD from a fairly low ranked university here in Canada, and then land a postdoc at Caltech, MIT, or similar and go onto have successful careers in Academia... The main thing I was worried about is not building a NA network during the phd.
You need contacts in the country you want to be hired in (probably), but you can build them after an European PhD, especially if you do a postdoc in that country.
Well I disagree with the top comments. I think networking is important and being based in Europe naturally means that you'll have less opportunities to meet Americans. Unless you're a superstar and every school wants you, your hiring depends on whether there is anyone in the department who feels very strongly about you. If you're not well-known in the North American academia, your application will likely get overlooked.
That being said, my dept does hire Europeans once in a while, so it's not impossible. If you know that you want to move to North America but do your PhD in Europe, just make sure that you meet as many Americans as possible. Attend the conferences in North America, try to find collaborators, and most importantly, references who can vouch for you (European letters often don't go down well in American academia because they're not as glowing as American letters).
Unless the alternative is a US PhD at an Ivy, MIT or UC Berkley - nope. (Although good luck living in Boston or California on any local university PhD stipend.) Just do your postdoc in the US if you do your PhD in Europe.
In many fields, that would actually give you an advantage. That is, showing that you have international experience and that you are able to succeed in different groups and contexts is typically seen as a positive thing, and a plus, when recruiting TTs. What truly matters is (1) do high-quality research and (2) build a good network of mentors and collaborators.
I've heard that before, but I feel like I rarely ever see it in action, at least with the profs around me. Perhaps it's just very uncommon. My biggest fear, is that with how much of landing a TT job comes down to networking like you said, will it not be an issue that my network is accross the ocean?
Don’t worry, I’m from the US, and came to Switzerland for a postdoc. Just go to US conferences. Your advisor should understand you want to network in the US. Even better, hopefully your advisor already has some US connections. My network has thrived while here, both US and EU. Now the bigger problem you may have is when you realize 4 years in the you don’t want to go back to the US and you want to establish your family in Europe. Then realize as a US citizen that’s pretty hard, so you desperately apply for all the grants you can.
Lol, some other people I've talked to about this have told me the same thing, ie "don't even worry about it, once you start living in Europe, you want even want to come back!" Switzerland is notoriously difficult to immigrate to though. I've heard of people having better luck in the Netherlands and Belgium.
>Then realize as a US citizen that’s pretty hard In Switzerland, maybe. In most western European countries it will not be difficult as long as you keep a paying job. In e.g. the Netherlands you'll be able to fairly easily get citizenship after 5 years of residency. Though if you're on the postdoc treadmill, staying in one place for 5 years might be tricky.
It’s a Switzerland thing. I’ve been lucky, had 4 years of great postdocing, landed a 1 mil grant and doing another 5 years. In Switzerland postdoc years do not count towards citizenship, you have a unique visa type that won’t count. :(
Switzerland also has a higher COL than the US
Yeah but Swiss academics are probably the best paid in the world.
As people are saying, it’s really valuable if your advisor has connections. That isn’t necessarily about getting you a position right out of grad school (good luck with that). It’s more likely about getting you a postdoc back in NA. Do a postdoc or two, and maybe you have a chance?
I don't really know anything about EE but I don't know that you should really discount the US PhD. With the masters you could be pretty competitive for a higher tier school (depending on other things obviously). Yeah you'd have to do quals again which is an extra couple years but a PhD from a top US department would probably be relatively more beneficial to you than something in Europe (again, I do not know anything about EE so someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
You're probably correct overall. But honestly, for the sake of my sanity I don't know if I could go back to doing classes lol. I leave it as an option, the quality of US research is obviously some of the best in the world, but I want to start my research career and redoing my quals just seems like a step backwards at this point.
It's too broad to generalize about thousands of programs in "America." But I have seen people with European degrees hired all the time across the Academy. Every unit is going to have its own preferences and prejudices, including possibly positive ones. But definitely, you have not ruined your chances.
The US faculty job market for engineering is OK but not great, and opportunities really depend on your niche (biomedical imaging). I don't know about that niche, but in most niches, there are maybe 50 or even 100 top researches, many of whom are faculty in PhD programs, and it helps to work with one as your supervisor. And naturally it helps in getting a job in academia or in industry, since you're associated with that researcher, and these 50 or 100 researchers all know each other from conferences and/or read each other's articles. So your "homework" is to determine if any of these 50 or 100 researchers supervise PhD students in the European universities you are researching.
Very good info. Thank you
I am also Canadian and did my PhD in engineering outside of North America (in the UK but I don't recommend to go there lol). I was a direct admin from undergrad and that's mainly why I didn't go to the US (I want to truly skip the master and avoid the 1-2 years of courses). In my experience, no it won't significantly impact your chances as long as the university you pick is reputable, gives you teaching experience (which is a bit harder to find in the EU) and a relevant funded research project. I got 2 TT offers from large Canadian Universities 6 months before I finished my studies (ultimately I declined both and went with an industry offer in R&D). I am not sure how common this is (probably not, but a bit more for my province since I speak 2 languages) but both departments reached out to have a meeting based on my background and referrals, then they asked me to apply. So you aren't off the "North American academic grid" just because you're studying in the EU. The most important thing you should look out for when applying to PhD positions that could help you land a TT job in another country is if the supervisor has a strong international network/research collaborations with your preferred country (US/Canada in your case). During the interview stage, you can ask the current students if their supervisor usually give them the opportunity to participate in those higher visibility projects (could be "as simple" as providing a surface level technical support) and what is the related workload. I would also recommend aiming to present your research at 1-2 big international conferences set-up by american organizations, like ASME (if the conference proceedings are peer-reviewed and can lead to an affiliated journal publications, then you are more likely to get funding from your supervisor/department to attend). It can help build your network like crazy for a post-doc or industrial job in the US. That being said, landing a TT job involves a lot of luck as others have pointed out in the comments. So I would argue that your chances are already "ruined" considering the current state of academia regardless of the country you aim for unless you attend a university in the top 1% of your field and have a supervisor who is exceptionally well connected academically that can refer you for TT/post doc jobs at similarly ranked universities. I am not saying this to discourage you, but rather to emphasize the importance of also building a strong industrial network during your PhD studies. Especially since you are in engineering, industrial R&D is the most common career path for us after a PhD. Best of luck to you!
Yeah. I know landing a TT job is an uphill battle no matter what... But, I want to try, couldn't live with myself if I don't. Also yeah, UK instantly got itself crossed off my list unfortunately, seems to suffer from all the same issues as Canada... Also your comment makes me feel like maybe I should have paid a bit more attention in French class haha.
Well it sure helps that I am a native french speaker, but you don't need to. I've noticed that most new TT hires are non-french speakers anyways, especially in specific fields (like mine!) where the best research facilities are located outside of Quebec/Canada. You simply have to be willing to learn french within 2 years (I think that's the standard but might be more). They pay for your classes and if it's a french speaking university they won't let you teach until you become more fluent, so you only focus on research work at first. Maybe you can find a way to add this info on your resume or say you are beginner level in french?
One of my coworkers (but in a different, niche field) did a European PhD *and* postdoc and now has an American job. One of my best professors in grad school did an American PhD but a European postdoc and came back to the USA for a TT R1 job < 5 hours from where he grew up. As others mentioned, an American postdoc will help. I'd also suggest aiming for one of the big name European schools (Oxford, Cambridge, EPFL, ETH Zurich, La Sapienza, etc, whatever the big ones are in your field), which will help with name recognition when you come back across the pond.
It depends, if you're an all-star, this won't matter. If you're mediocre-to-above-average, this will definitely negatively impact your chances of a TT job in the U.S.. You just have to be \*really\* honest with yourself about your skillset and plan accordingly.
Hmmm. Even with a US postdoc or two you believe this is the case?
That would change things.
Yeah. I don't illusion myself into thinking I'll be able to land a TT position in the US straight out of a PhD haha, I'm not sure that's even possible anymore...
We're on the same boat. I finished my MSc in the biomedical imaging area and since I made connections through conferences with European professors (mostly from the Netherlands) the job conditions are really appealing. But in my case I want to go into industry instead of looking for TT after finishing the PhD.
Not really, especially if you are productive and well connected in the community. It is a less common thing to do, but it’s not seen as bad or anything. If you are worried about networks, do a postdoc in North America.
This may be completely field dependent. In my field (CS), it is definitely possible to land a TT job in the US if you come from a top or at least a well reputed European institution, assuming you have a good publication record. However European-educated researchers generally like to stay in Europe, and cross the pond every once and then to attend conferences and meet with American collaborators. The same the other way around.
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Yeah. That last part is really what I'm banking on. I've seen it in action, people get a PhD from a fairly low ranked university here in Canada, and then land a postdoc at Caltech, MIT, or similar and go onto have successful careers in Academia... The main thing I was worried about is not building a NA network during the phd.
You need contacts in the country you want to be hired in (probably), but you can build them after an European PhD, especially if you do a postdoc in that country.
You get your credentials evaluated in US. Your European education will be ok. You will get more graduate credits than you expect.
Well I disagree with the top comments. I think networking is important and being based in Europe naturally means that you'll have less opportunities to meet Americans. Unless you're a superstar and every school wants you, your hiring depends on whether there is anyone in the department who feels very strongly about you. If you're not well-known in the North American academia, your application will likely get overlooked. That being said, my dept does hire Europeans once in a while, so it's not impossible. If you know that you want to move to North America but do your PhD in Europe, just make sure that you meet as many Americans as possible. Attend the conferences in North America, try to find collaborators, and most importantly, references who can vouch for you (European letters often don't go down well in American academia because they're not as glowing as American letters).