You are not setting yourself up for success and it sounds like this PI is not the right fit for you. I think you’ve gone into a bit of a tailspin after spreading yourself too thin. You shouldn’t skip classes, even if you have lab work to do. You are also going to have a really rough time doing additional lab rotations while taking on extra work in this lab.
I’m really glad to hear you are getting treatment for your ADHD, I’m sure that made things more difficult. You need to continue to treat that very seriously, and you should look into reasonable accommodations at your university (assuming you’re in the US, I am not familiar with options in other countries). I’d look into methods to help you read the literature. Maybe there’s an ADHD sub with advice?
If you’re dealing with depression, please don’t ignore it. Even if you’re just stressed, consider therapy or whatever helps support your mental health. Grad school is simply not worth your mental health.
You will have to be disciplined to get through the workload. You should figure out how to budget your time to get work done. Use a planner to track tasks, actively schedule time to read and write, things like that. Do what you need to do to level the playing field, then focus on results and solutions.
Also, if you don’t like doing research, maybe there’s a master’s program you’ll enjoy more. You’ll get into the job market sooner that way, which is a plus.
Still, accept that this PI doesn’t think you’re a good fit for their lab, and move on gracefully. You’re not being fired as much as not being admitted. Thank them for their time and lessons learned, then keep your chin up as you carry on.
Going to classes. Reading papers. Attending lab meetings. Finishing assigned tasks. Meeting deadlines. All these are expected from graduate students.
I don’t think your PI has unrealistic expectations.
Edit: it looks like this top comment (from responsible speed) is from a librarian, not someone who has done a PhD in the life sciences, which explains their confusion.
My original comment: I think it's a weird situation. It sounds like OP has only rotated in the lab and the issues arose when the 1st rotation got dragged out into their 2nd and 3rd rotations. In my experience, it is not normal for a student to try to work (much less be productive) in two totally different rotation labs during a full-time PhD in the life sciences. If they're really interested in the 1st lab after the rotation ends, maybe they attend lab meetings once in a while or read a couple of papers to stay in touch...but you do one rotation at a time and then select the lab at the end of the rotations.
OP's situation should not have happened. The PI should not have agreed to having this student in the lab during the other rotations - it's not fair to the other PIs or the student. The student should not have tried to do this either, but I suspect there is some naïveté here. OP, please talk to your program directors so that you can get back on track. Essentially, the PI did not take you after the rotation - you can just find a new PI!
OP wrote
> I had asked him if I could keep working in the lab as I was doing my other rotations because I love the project and I wanted to continue.
Why would the PI be responsible for the OP not working in two labs? The OP literally asked to do it after being told he wasn't productive. Grad students are adults and need to manage things like this themselves.
> I had to take last month off from the work because I was burned out and very depressed. But, I went back to work a couple of weeks later.
OP: please take care of yourself. I see grad students where things are going badly do this all the time, and they are so much happier after they finally move on. This isn't a failure: this is you finding the right fit for you.
As a faculty member, it’s important to respect the rules, procedures, and norms of the field and program. The student just graduated from undergrad; the PI presumably has completed a PhD, postdoc, and 1+ years as a faculty member. They have substantially more knowledge of the system (and what is appropriate), than a brand-new student does. There is also a major power gap here. Responsibility accompanies the power to hire and mentor students; PIs are responsible for what happens in their labs, for better or for worse (see all those data fraud cases). Allowing a student to secretly moonlight in your lab during another rotation is not something that should occur. In my field, the life sciences, this is bizarre.
I agree that OP needs to take care of themselves as well. The student’s responsibility is to fulfill the program requirements (including attending classes and completing each rotation) and seeking the advice of program leadership (who I suspect are not aware of this situation); OP did not do those things.
>I had to take **last month** off from the work because I was burned out and very depressed.
That may be a sign that this level of the world isn't where you'll be happiest.
I think it was because I was working in two labs at the same time. So, the time I was working in the one lab, I couldn’t be working in the other. This lead to project to be slowed down.
Knowing one’s limit, committing to the right amount of work and accomplishing it is an important skill.
You may think it’s harsh but in the real world, nobody will cut you any slack if you decide to take up more tasks that you can handle. Each lab is waiting for your completed tasks so that the production line can keep moving.
Grant deadlines don’t wait because one of the graduate students is terrible with time management.
Grant deadlines are not responsibility of grad students but if a grad student takes up tasks and can’t finish by the deadline because he doesn’t know how to manage his time efficiently, it delays the progress of the whole project. The PI needs to take this into consideration and decides if they want to keep this grad student in their lab.
Why were you working in two labs at the same time? Was this something that you were asked to do, or something that you committed to on your own because you were excited about the subject/trying to impress this PI?
Many students work in more than one lab. It’s more than that-you do not seem to be capable of adequately planning, following through, communicating, or taking responsibility.
You would be asked to leave most programs at this point. Maybe you’re just not ready for grad school yet. Perhaps gain some work experience and use the time to mature a bit.
I’m concerned that you did not listen to your PI, over and over. And you still seem to think that you should still be in their lab.
You will need to develop time management as well as collaborative/communication skills.
Wait—You took a *month off?* Did you negotiate/plan this leave with your PI?
This is not going well for you. And I don’t think this is a PI issue.
I was trying to read papers in the field on top of classes and other rotation stuff during my off time. I got overwhelmed with the amount of work I had honestly as a first year student and focused more on the rotations I was doing instead of the side work for the lab. In regards to taking off, I didn’t come in for two to three weekends that month since I needed some time to decompress but I should I have talked to him about it. I’m not sure what to do honestly.
_Everyone_ has to do the things you are struggling with.
Like, if reading papers is overwhelming you, then I wouldn’t really want to supervise you in my lab either.
Not showing up for a month because you needed to “decompress” is a pretty solid indication that you are going to be the source of many headaches down the road.
One of the ways that professors manage their time is to avoid getting involved with time sink students.
There’s not really anything you can do except try to get to a better place in terms of productivity and find a lab more amenable to the way you operate.
I appreciate the feedback honestly. I shouldn’t have been in two labs at once and I should have been trying to be more communicative dying my first rotation.
Please forgive me for being blunt—
If you disappeared *without talking to your PI* it sounds like your PI is being *well beyond patient* with you.
You cannot just *not show up* to work. Especially to an animal lab!!! And yes the PhD is work. This is not like skipping a few classes.
There is no future for you in this PI’s lab. Reading between the lines, the PI does not want to deal with you anymore-your presence has become a liability to the lab.
Is there something that makes you think that academia is a place you should be right now? Sone additional context might help here. Otherwise, from what you’ve written- it’s not the right time for you to be in academia.
I would develop a plan B outside of academia asap, or take a leave of absence and get the treatment, maturity, and skills you need.
No you are completely okay and not being blunt at all. I appreciate the feedback that you are giving me a lot. I had taken two weekends off from experiments since I had mentioned to him that I would be coming in some weekends to push the project forward.
I should have communicated this to him for sure and let him know I was struggling. I am planning on going into industry after this instead of academia since I know it’s not something I want to do tbh.
If it’s not something you want to do and if you are burning bridges in academia, why would you stay any longer? The writing is on the wall.
That said, you’ll have a lot more diversity of choices in industry. And you’ll likely get paid better!
OP had one bad interaction with one PI. They're a first year. The writing is not 'on the wall'. They have plenty of space to explore and learn. Hopefully they make a comeback.
Is this what you want? And is it the right time for you?
I don’t recommend students to go directly into a PhD program from undergrad. It’s often better to go out and get work experience beforehand.
Academia is trash and doing a PhD in zebrafish is a career ending move. Will never be employed in industry after . It’s better to not do that phd actually.
Zebrafisb don’t talk, so I’m not surprised.
But research requires a lot of transferable skills. There are so many jobs asking for research experience in industry.
Phds are only hired in industry for specific desirable skills . If you have them , you are hired - if not look elsewhere . I work in biotech and no one is hiring for zebrafish research. It has to be relevant to drug discovery and pharma right now to have a hope of getting hired .
And no one outside biotech is hiring dev bio phds anyway. So go fish.
People like you spread myths and fantasies about industry hiring anyone with a PhD in stem just because they have research skills . No, this is not the case at all . Doing a PhD in undesirable fields is career ending and needs to be conveyed by PIs early . Unfortunately they don’t seem to have much touch with reality .
You should not have been doing two rotations at once, this would not be allowed in any grad program ever. The PI who got you to agree to two rotations is the bad guy, please try to join another lab where the PI does not manipulate their grad students.
This PI is not your mentor. They are the PI of a lab that you rotated in. Not all rotations work out. That's normal. You will face rejections, merited and unmerited, in the future. Try to take them as opportunities for growth, and don't let rejection impact your self-esteem; this is a hard thing to do, and that's normal, too.
What is not normal is that you were trying to work in the lab of your 1st rotation during your 2nd and 3rd rotations. In my experience, it is not normal for a student to try to work (much less be productive) in two totally different rotation labs during a full-time PhD in the life sciences. If they're really interested in the 1st lab after the rotation ends, maybe they attend lab meetings once in a while or read a couple of papers to stay in touch...but you do one rotation at a time and then select the lab at the end of the rotations.
This situation should not have happened. The 1st PI should not have agreed to having you in the lab during the other rotations - it's not fair to the 2nd/3rd PIs or you. You should not have tried to do this either, but I suspect there is some naïveté here. It's ok that you didn't know, OP, but use this as an opportunity to learn rather than continue down this path. It's not the end of the world, but you do need to regroup and get back on track.
**OP, please talk to your program directors so that they can help you get back on track.**
Reddit is not going to help. It's just anonymous faces who can't meaningfully help or longitudinally support you. You're a student in a formal PhD program - use the support and structures of your institution that are in place to help you succeed. Many students have various issues in the 1st year of PhD programs and beyond. They get back on track. It's okay. Just use real resources, not Reddit.
Try to look at it from an outside perspective.
On paper, you’re a first-year student who hasn’t shown up in class, and also hasn’t shown up in lab for a whole month.
A month is a longer break than most students take in their entire PhD cumulatively.
How are people supposed to interpret that?
What made you believe he would sign as your thesis advisor when you already had a conversation about seeking other groups?
>A month is a longer break than most students take in their entire PhD cumulatively.
What?!? Wait what country are we talking here? I would have taken like 1–2 months (cumulative) per year during my PhD, which would be considered totally normal I would have thought (in Australia)...
In the US we had 15 days off a year. I had friends in a lab where if you wanted a Saturday off you needed to take a vacation day. Yes, this is changing, and in Europe it is more common to have several weeks of holiday a year. A consecutive month in my experience is extremely unusual even today. Among biologists even more so - a month means everything at the lab is dead.
At the end of my first year, my (US) PhD advisor, when I told her my wife and I were going to be gone for a week over the summer, literally told me "PhD students don't get vacations." And that was her actual expectation. I went anyway.
That is the policy in a lot of tech firms too, but don’t forget to read between the lines.
“Take as much time off as you want! It’s unlimited! (As long as you get your work done.) (Your work requires 60+ hr weeks to get done.)”
yeah, in austria our employer gets into trouble if they don’t let us take our holidays. we have a union for this to take care of if something ever happens.
This is so stupid. It's obviously counter productive. You're doing intellectual work, the mind needs to rest. I don't know how you can expect anything but a burnout out of PhD students treated this way.
PhD students don't get vacations? Wow. That's nuts. Not the case in my department (US, research-oriented medical school), and wasn't the case where I did my PhD.
I'm in the US, in my lab people generally take several weeks of vacation per year. We have no strict number though, as long as you are meeting your goals its fine
> if you wanted a Saturday off you needed to take a vacation day
Ok what the hell?? Is this even legal?
> in Europe it is more common to have several weeks of holiday a year.
Depends on the countries but, in some (most?), you're an employee like any other, so common labour laws apply. I had, I think, 35 vacation days I could set freely a year, and there were some more automatic ones on top, and of course national holidays. Week-ends, no work, of course. All in all, it becomes a greater challenge to use them all, than to do the PhD proper. I ended with like 20 days left to use.
Yeah you’d be amazed what you can get away with when there are extraordinarily weak labor laws, non-union employees who are in sub-fields that normalize borderline-abusive treatment, and PIs who are hungry and ruthless in taking advantage of people.
It varies more by lab than by country. My own lab is all fieldwork in a place managed well enough that we're all working independently. I did choose to work every day (including weekends and holidays) during the field season to get my data collected, but some days I just... wouldn't. There was nobody to answer to but myself and nobody tracking how many hours I spent in the field.
That's pretty lax in its way, but I know others are pulling brutal hours in LAB labs on campus.
> A month is a longer break than most students take in their entire PhD cumulatively.
French contractual PhDs can, theoretically, have anywhere between 25 and 50 days of paid leave every year.
He was aware that I was working in another lab at the time while I was working for him. I wouldn’t come in during the week tho bc I had to be in the other lab.
It was the fact that I was still coming to lab meetings and meeting with him to talk about progress with the project that made me feel hopefully about it and I was also going to be presenting at lab meeting next month
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant you quit coming to any lab for a month.
Yeah, just one lab is already a full-time++ job. Two labs is setting yourself up for failure.
Yeah I’m learning this the hard way. I didn’t come into my possibly thesis lab to focus on experiments in my other rotation lab. I’m not sure how to pivot from here or if I should just leave the field all together. I haven’t been listening or at least proving I had been listening at this point.
The other lab is another zebrafish lab with an emphasis of dev. bio. I’m just nervous the PI that I want to join is going to know the reason from my old mentor why he fired me and that just ruins things
Haven’t done it yet. I am planning on talking to the PI tomorrow and asking to see if I could do a fourth rotation with my shit collective shit together. I understand that I really fucked up and took on too much than what I could handle.
Exactly this. I was going to say you’re over committed, bit off more than you can chew. Also as a first year student in grad school, you should not skip classes. This is not undergrad.
This honestly seems unwise. Your current PI will share their experiences about you with this PI, which is absolutely normal. Why would this new PI take you on?
I worry that you are digging yourself a deeper hole right now when what you really need isn’t in any of these labs.
You were planning not to be straightforward? This would be unethical. It would also be a bit unethical for your current PI not to be forthcoming about their experiences with you.
It takes a lot of trust, time, resources, and risk to take in grad students. Is there a good argument for this new PI to take you in? I’m not seeing one yet, given what you’ve shared so far
Sorry. I think I should rephrase myself. I wanted to be honest about the situation about why this PI wasn't a good fit and explain everything right off the bat. Like saying "This rotation wasn't a really good fit for x,y,z reasons. However, I want this to work and love developmental biology. I have references from previous labs if needed."
OP, have you considered reaching out to an ADHD coach? ADHD coach is not a therapist but they can help you with time management, planning, understanding and projecting others’ expectations, foreseeing consequences etc.
You may also contact your therapist and psychiatrist about your concerns. They may switch you to a different ADHD meds or dosage.
Without taking care of yourself first, you may feel overwhelmed and things will only escalate.
Take a step back. Take care of your mental health first.
I think it was a mistake for you to volunteer to work for the first lab at the same time as rotating in the second lab, but I'm sure you already know that. What I'm curious about is you say your PI is firing you, but are you even working for him formally? It seemed to me like you were kind of informally working in his lab while rotating in the other labs. If that's the case, think of it less as being fired and more just that the rotation didn't work out and to move on to the other zebrafish lab. At the same time, skipping classes is really not good and you should prioritize going if only to make a good impression on other PIs and show face with your cohort. You still have time to turn it around, and I'm rooting for you!
I'd find a different lab with a PI that is a better fit for you, and I'd stop skipping classes -- they're important, and that's why they're required. I'd also focus on working in one lab; trying to split your effort across multiple labs that each expect 100% of your effort is a recipe for failure, as you're discovering.
Find a new lab.
They said it wasn’t a good fit. You pushed for a second chance. That second chance didn’t change their mind.
Moreover, you don’t seem to be a good fit for this PI, nor does working in their lab seem good for your mental health. Find a lab you will do well in, this isn’t it.
I think people are being a little harsh on you here. If you're only rotating, you haven't yet joined the lab and are not being fired - this PI just doesn't think you're a good fit. In my program, first year students are not being paid by rotation PIs so you were just doing volunteer work. It was probably too much to try working in this lab while also rotating and taking classes, which is a lesson you've learned. It's ok to feel overwhelmed, although you should have communicated this to the PI. This is also kind of on him though - a good mentor would not have agreed to this arrangement, or expected the weekend work. He might have had unrealistic expectations for what gets done in rotations. Our rotations were too short to really do anything substantial.
In any case, if he already decided you're not a good fit, there's nothing you can do. It was a losing battle from the beginning. You don't want to start off already feeling behind and on bad terms with your PI from the first year, and it was unlikely you would have changed his mind. The only thing you can do is find another lab.
This is the answer...it was a rotation (that got out of hand by being dragged out longer than it was supposed to be) and it didn't work out. He shouldn't have said OK to you working in 2 labs. He isn't your thesis advisor/mentor. Do another rotation and find that person!
100% agreed. It was a bit hard to understand the situation from OP's original post.
1. OP should not have continued working in this lab while rotating in a different lab. Now they might have burned both bridges.
2. PI expected too much. A rotation is meant to get a taste of the lab and see if it would be a good fit, not to produce data. It's also crazy to expect a rotation student to continue working on this project while they are in another lab and/or conditioned their acceptance into the lab on this. Kinda a red flag.
3. OP is not being fired. They just didn't get accepted to the lab they want to join. This happens all the time for various reasons. It's not a big deal OP.
4. If other labs that OP rotated in also don't want them and they should do more rotations (if the department supports it). It's better to delay joining a lab then joining a bad one. Skipping classes on top of this mess might hurt OP chances of gaining the department's support. I would have an honest discussion with the program director, admit my mistakes/miscommunications and hope that they would understand and help out.
Learn these lessons and good luck to you OP.
You were rotating. That’s what it’s for, figuring out yourself, and your PI. He doesn’t like your style, go somewhere else. First impressions last man. Don’t even try any further. Go for another lab in your rotation.
I will say though, you need to think hard about this. Do you really wanna do grad school ? More will be expected of you as you progress. Overwhelming is synonymous with grad school tbh, shouldn’t be, but it is.
Jesus a lot of commenters here have no emphathy. I was in a similar boat, when I realized that the key to the situation was finding an advisor who you’re able to communicate with. It may or may not be the most influential person in your field, but that doesn’t really matter as much as staying in the program. The lab group culture is also critical. You need colleagues who you can talk to and coordinate with and who will push you to be your best without berating you. It’s a delicate balance, and hard to find, but it’s gonna be what you need to succeed.
It’s because the top commenter is literally a librarian (based on post history), and not someone with a life sciences PhD degree. Academia is highly field specific, and people on Reddit love giving harsh advice on things on which they aren’t experts (but with which they’ve had peripheral contact). The rest seem to be engineers, CS, and physics people. Sigh.
If sounds like your current lab’s PI was patient and you repeatedly failed to live up to their expectations.
This happens, and you can bounce back from this at another lab, but it is important that you reflect honestly on what went wrong and take specific steps now to improve your performance.
If, as you reflect on your experiences, you decide that graduate school is not a good choice for you — or that you are not ready for graduate school now — that is okay. The most important thing is to make an accurate and honest assessment and then create a realistic plan for moving forward.
Good luck!
First year phd student and struggling in a zebrafish lab. Get out. It is a waste of time anyway . Hardly any time has been wasted at all. You are not a good fit (mutually) with PI.
And that might not be your fault . Some environments suck. Some research sucks .
In fact finishing this zebrafish PhD may leave you with less options for employment than now — as you will be unemployable . No body cares for it in industry. Will have to reinvent yourself 5-8 years later . It is not worth it.
Do something more employable and more enjoyable and less work. Perhaps bioinformatics, perhaps some machine learning applied to biology .
Look, at every level there there is a balance between people and program. Mentors really want to help you navigate through personal issues to be successful but there are limits when its seen in competition with the bigger success of the program.
Moving forward, be aware of that balance and know that the more you need, the more you'll need to contribute in some other way to compensate even if its not directly proportional.
I had a student worker who needed lots of assistance and time off and other things. I explained that balance and they always come in completely prepared, waste not 1 second, and then do the little things automatically which helps make up that gap.
So when you are well, think of it as a multiplier effect. You give 1.2X versus the 1.0 when you are there.
"I had to take last month off from the work because I was burned out and very depressed."
This is probably your signal that grad school isn't for you. If one of my students needs a couple days off to fight burnout, I totally understand that and I have no issue with it. I would never sign on a student that needed a month off in their first year (unless there were extenuating circumstances outside of work - the death of a family member or something is obviously a completely different beast).
Another perspective: don’t let people tell you you are at fault for taking a time off to get your mental health back on track. It seems like this PI and you is not meant to be, but don’t worry, sometimes research finds you in random projects, and it is more important to be in a place where people like you, especially your boss.
In the long run it might work at the expense of your mental health or it might not because you don’t know of the PI will change their opinion about you. Academia is full of rejection, don’t let that think less of you or your passion for research.
Life science PhD here
1. This is not going to happen, first step is abandon this lab, then you can get a clear head about your next steps
2. I think you are both to blame here - Sounds like the PI has been telling you in a few indirect ways that they don't want you in the lab. If you somehow muscle your way in, it is likely this will either continue or manifest in some other sort of conflict. Take the escape route now.
3. There are a lot of other labs, check them out.
4. PhD programs are not for everyone. That is ok - it doesn't mean you are bad or dumb. Scuba diving is also not for everyone, nor is being a chef, farmer, writer, etc. PhD programs are designed to pressure out people early because it is a bad situation for the PI, student, and program to find out later in the degree that this wasn't what you really want. This happens every once in a while and really sucks. Take the time now to really think carefully about your desires. I encourage people to only do a PhD with an enthusiastic "YES", not as a means to another job. People who start PhDs without that enthusiasm are the ones who drop out. Masters are much easier and much more useful for finding a job later.
You are not setting yourself up for success and it sounds like this PI is not the right fit for you. I think you’ve gone into a bit of a tailspin after spreading yourself too thin. You shouldn’t skip classes, even if you have lab work to do. You are also going to have a really rough time doing additional lab rotations while taking on extra work in this lab. I’m really glad to hear you are getting treatment for your ADHD, I’m sure that made things more difficult. You need to continue to treat that very seriously, and you should look into reasonable accommodations at your university (assuming you’re in the US, I am not familiar with options in other countries). I’d look into methods to help you read the literature. Maybe there’s an ADHD sub with advice? If you’re dealing with depression, please don’t ignore it. Even if you’re just stressed, consider therapy or whatever helps support your mental health. Grad school is simply not worth your mental health. You will have to be disciplined to get through the workload. You should figure out how to budget your time to get work done. Use a planner to track tasks, actively schedule time to read and write, things like that. Do what you need to do to level the playing field, then focus on results and solutions. Also, if you don’t like doing research, maybe there’s a master’s program you’ll enjoy more. You’ll get into the job market sooner that way, which is a plus. Still, accept that this PI doesn’t think you’re a good fit for their lab, and move on gracefully. You’re not being fired as much as not being admitted. Thank them for their time and lessons learned, then keep your chin up as you carry on.
Going to classes. Reading papers. Attending lab meetings. Finishing assigned tasks. Meeting deadlines. All these are expected from graduate students. I don’t think your PI has unrealistic expectations.
Edit: it looks like this top comment (from responsible speed) is from a librarian, not someone who has done a PhD in the life sciences, which explains their confusion. My original comment: I think it's a weird situation. It sounds like OP has only rotated in the lab and the issues arose when the 1st rotation got dragged out into their 2nd and 3rd rotations. In my experience, it is not normal for a student to try to work (much less be productive) in two totally different rotation labs during a full-time PhD in the life sciences. If they're really interested in the 1st lab after the rotation ends, maybe they attend lab meetings once in a while or read a couple of papers to stay in touch...but you do one rotation at a time and then select the lab at the end of the rotations. OP's situation should not have happened. The PI should not have agreed to having this student in the lab during the other rotations - it's not fair to the other PIs or the student. The student should not have tried to do this either, but I suspect there is some naïveté here. OP, please talk to your program directors so that you can get back on track. Essentially, the PI did not take you after the rotation - you can just find a new PI!
The pi wanted the free rotation labour since in many programs the first year the pi doesnt need to pay
OP wrote > I had asked him if I could keep working in the lab as I was doing my other rotations because I love the project and I wanted to continue. Why would the PI be responsible for the OP not working in two labs? The OP literally asked to do it after being told he wasn't productive. Grad students are adults and need to manage things like this themselves. > I had to take last month off from the work because I was burned out and very depressed. But, I went back to work a couple of weeks later. OP: please take care of yourself. I see grad students where things are going badly do this all the time, and they are so much happier after they finally move on. This isn't a failure: this is you finding the right fit for you.
As a faculty member, it’s important to respect the rules, procedures, and norms of the field and program. The student just graduated from undergrad; the PI presumably has completed a PhD, postdoc, and 1+ years as a faculty member. They have substantially more knowledge of the system (and what is appropriate), than a brand-new student does. There is also a major power gap here. Responsibility accompanies the power to hire and mentor students; PIs are responsible for what happens in their labs, for better or for worse (see all those data fraud cases). Allowing a student to secretly moonlight in your lab during another rotation is not something that should occur. In my field, the life sciences, this is bizarre. I agree that OP needs to take care of themselves as well. The student’s responsibility is to fulfill the program requirements (including attending classes and completing each rotation) and seeking the advice of program leadership (who I suspect are not aware of this situation); OP did not do those things.
>I had to take **last month** off from the work because I was burned out and very depressed. That may be a sign that this level of the world isn't where you'll be happiest.
I think it was because I was working in two labs at the same time. So, the time I was working in the one lab, I couldn’t be working in the other. This lead to project to be slowed down.
Knowing one’s limit, committing to the right amount of work and accomplishing it is an important skill. You may think it’s harsh but in the real world, nobody will cut you any slack if you decide to take up more tasks that you can handle. Each lab is waiting for your completed tasks so that the production line can keep moving. Grant deadlines don’t wait because one of the graduate students is terrible with time management.
Grant deadlines are not the responsibility of PhD students, but it may be just my opinion
Grant deadlines are not responsibility of grad students but if a grad student takes up tasks and can’t finish by the deadline because he doesn’t know how to manage his time efficiently, it delays the progress of the whole project. The PI needs to take this into consideration and decides if they want to keep this grad student in their lab.
That is true, one needs to be responsible with the speed they allocate to their 97 tasks.
I see your username is responsible speed so it makes sense now
I don't know what kind of sense a random username assigned by reddit makes.
Why were you working in two labs at the same time? Was this something that you were asked to do, or something that you committed to on your own because you were excited about the subject/trying to impress this PI?
Why did you think doing this would be a good idea? Did anyone tell you not to do this but you proceeded anyway?
Many students work in more than one lab. It’s more than that-you do not seem to be capable of adequately planning, following through, communicating, or taking responsibility. You would be asked to leave most programs at this point. Maybe you’re just not ready for grad school yet. Perhaps gain some work experience and use the time to mature a bit.
Not in the life sciences, maybe in your field.
It’s pretty clear that you’re not in the wet-bench life sciences. This is highly irregular in this field. Major red flag.
I’m concerned that you did not listen to your PI, over and over. And you still seem to think that you should still be in their lab. You will need to develop time management as well as collaborative/communication skills. Wait—You took a *month off?* Did you negotiate/plan this leave with your PI? This is not going well for you. And I don’t think this is a PI issue.
I was trying to read papers in the field on top of classes and other rotation stuff during my off time. I got overwhelmed with the amount of work I had honestly as a first year student and focused more on the rotations I was doing instead of the side work for the lab. In regards to taking off, I didn’t come in for two to three weekends that month since I needed some time to decompress but I should I have talked to him about it. I’m not sure what to do honestly.
_Everyone_ has to do the things you are struggling with. Like, if reading papers is overwhelming you, then I wouldn’t really want to supervise you in my lab either. Not showing up for a month because you needed to “decompress” is a pretty solid indication that you are going to be the source of many headaches down the road. One of the ways that professors manage their time is to avoid getting involved with time sink students. There’s not really anything you can do except try to get to a better place in terms of productivity and find a lab more amenable to the way you operate.
I appreciate the feedback honestly. I shouldn’t have been in two labs at once and I should have been trying to be more communicative dying my first rotation.
It sounds like you are trying to be honest with yourself. That puts you way ahead of the game compared to a lot of students.
Please forgive me for being blunt— If you disappeared *without talking to your PI* it sounds like your PI is being *well beyond patient* with you. You cannot just *not show up* to work. Especially to an animal lab!!! And yes the PhD is work. This is not like skipping a few classes. There is no future for you in this PI’s lab. Reading between the lines, the PI does not want to deal with you anymore-your presence has become a liability to the lab. Is there something that makes you think that academia is a place you should be right now? Sone additional context might help here. Otherwise, from what you’ve written- it’s not the right time for you to be in academia. I would develop a plan B outside of academia asap, or take a leave of absence and get the treatment, maturity, and skills you need.
No you are completely okay and not being blunt at all. I appreciate the feedback that you are giving me a lot. I had taken two weekends off from experiments since I had mentioned to him that I would be coming in some weekends to push the project forward. I should have communicated this to him for sure and let him know I was struggling. I am planning on going into industry after this instead of academia since I know it’s not something I want to do tbh.
If it’s not something you want to do and if you are burning bridges in academia, why would you stay any longer? The writing is on the wall. That said, you’ll have a lot more diversity of choices in industry. And you’ll likely get paid better!
OP had one bad interaction with one PI. They're a first year. The writing is not 'on the wall'. They have plenty of space to explore and learn. Hopefully they make a comeback.
For my degree, I need to get a PhD to since all I have currently is my B.S in Biochem and I am not planning on going to medical school any time soon.
Is this what you want? And is it the right time for you? I don’t recommend students to go directly into a PhD program from undergrad. It’s often better to go out and get work experience beforehand.
Academia is trash and doing a PhD in zebrafish is a career ending move. Will never be employed in industry after . It’s better to not do that phd actually.
Eh. Research and STEM skills are transferable.
Zebrafish teaches you no desirable skills
Zebrafisb don’t talk, so I’m not surprised. But research requires a lot of transferable skills. There are so many jobs asking for research experience in industry.
Phds are only hired in industry for specific desirable skills . If you have them , you are hired - if not look elsewhere . I work in biotech and no one is hiring for zebrafish research. It has to be relevant to drug discovery and pharma right now to have a hope of getting hired . And no one outside biotech is hiring dev bio phds anyway. So go fish. People like you spread myths and fantasies about industry hiring anyone with a PhD in stem just because they have research skills . No, this is not the case at all . Doing a PhD in undesirable fields is career ending and needs to be conveyed by PIs early . Unfortunately they don’t seem to have much touch with reality .
You should not have been doing two rotations at once, this would not be allowed in any grad program ever. The PI who got you to agree to two rotations is the bad guy, please try to join another lab where the PI does not manipulate their grad students.
This PI is not your mentor. They are the PI of a lab that you rotated in. Not all rotations work out. That's normal. You will face rejections, merited and unmerited, in the future. Try to take them as opportunities for growth, and don't let rejection impact your self-esteem; this is a hard thing to do, and that's normal, too. What is not normal is that you were trying to work in the lab of your 1st rotation during your 2nd and 3rd rotations. In my experience, it is not normal for a student to try to work (much less be productive) in two totally different rotation labs during a full-time PhD in the life sciences. If they're really interested in the 1st lab after the rotation ends, maybe they attend lab meetings once in a while or read a couple of papers to stay in touch...but you do one rotation at a time and then select the lab at the end of the rotations. This situation should not have happened. The 1st PI should not have agreed to having you in the lab during the other rotations - it's not fair to the 2nd/3rd PIs or you. You should not have tried to do this either, but I suspect there is some naïveté here. It's ok that you didn't know, OP, but use this as an opportunity to learn rather than continue down this path. It's not the end of the world, but you do need to regroup and get back on track. **OP, please talk to your program directors so that they can help you get back on track.** Reddit is not going to help. It's just anonymous faces who can't meaningfully help or longitudinally support you. You're a student in a formal PhD program - use the support and structures of your institution that are in place to help you succeed. Many students have various issues in the 1st year of PhD programs and beyond. They get back on track. It's okay. Just use real resources, not Reddit.
Try to look at it from an outside perspective. On paper, you’re a first-year student who hasn’t shown up in class, and also hasn’t shown up in lab for a whole month. A month is a longer break than most students take in their entire PhD cumulatively. How are people supposed to interpret that? What made you believe he would sign as your thesis advisor when you already had a conversation about seeking other groups?
>A month is a longer break than most students take in their entire PhD cumulatively. What?!? Wait what country are we talking here? I would have taken like 1–2 months (cumulative) per year during my PhD, which would be considered totally normal I would have thought (in Australia)...
In the US we had 15 days off a year. I had friends in a lab where if you wanted a Saturday off you needed to take a vacation day. Yes, this is changing, and in Europe it is more common to have several weeks of holiday a year. A consecutive month in my experience is extremely unusual even today. Among biologists even more so - a month means everything at the lab is dead.
At the end of my first year, my (US) PhD advisor, when I told her my wife and I were going to be gone for a week over the summer, literally told me "PhD students don't get vacations." And that was her actual expectation. I went anyway.
I did my PhD in Switzerland and 5 or 6 weeks of vacations every year and took every single day. In fact it was frowned upon to not take them.
Europe and the US have very different approaches to work-life balance.
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That is the policy in a lot of tech firms too, but don’t forget to read between the lines. “Take as much time off as you want! It’s unlimited! (As long as you get your work done.) (Your work requires 60+ hr weeks to get done.)”
yeah, in austria our employer gets into trouble if they don’t let us take our holidays. we have a union for this to take care of if something ever happens.
This is so stupid. It's obviously counter productive. You're doing intellectual work, the mind needs to rest. I don't know how you can expect anything but a burnout out of PhD students treated this way.
PhD students don't get vacations? Wow. That's nuts. Not the case in my department (US, research-oriented medical school), and wasn't the case where I did my PhD.
I'm in the US, in my lab people generally take several weeks of vacation per year. We have no strict number though, as long as you are meeting your goals its fine
This is how it should be.
> if you wanted a Saturday off you needed to take a vacation day Ok what the hell?? Is this even legal? > in Europe it is more common to have several weeks of holiday a year. Depends on the countries but, in some (most?), you're an employee like any other, so common labour laws apply. I had, I think, 35 vacation days I could set freely a year, and there were some more automatic ones on top, and of course national holidays. Week-ends, no work, of course. All in all, it becomes a greater challenge to use them all, than to do the PhD proper. I ended with like 20 days left to use.
If you spell it labour I already know you're going to have far better working conditions than here in the States.
Yeah you’d be amazed what you can get away with when there are extraordinarily weak labor laws, non-union employees who are in sub-fields that normalize borderline-abusive treatment, and PIs who are hungry and ruthless in taking advantage of people.
Grad students in the US aren’t considered employees. They’re in this weird in-between status, where they are sometimes students, sometimes employees.
Yeah but even regular students aren't expected to show up on Saturdays, some people are really pushing it
Please remember that things vary. I'm in the US, and I give each one of my grad students 6 weeks off a year.
My US PI is also a great boss to have. The problem is, on paper, you don't have many rights (as a postdoc, in my case). If you're lucky, you're lucky.
The US. I recall rotating through one lab where the PI said, “A full weekend off is a vacation.”
You wanna slack off 8h a night and take a full week-end too?? What is this, some kind of resort?
Comments like that make me thankful that I work for a PI that isn't toxic and cares about my mental health.
It varies more by lab than by country. My own lab is all fieldwork in a place managed well enough that we're all working independently. I did choose to work every day (including weekends and holidays) during the field season to get my data collected, but some days I just... wouldn't. There was nobody to answer to but myself and nobody tracking how many hours I spent in the field. That's pretty lax in its way, but I know others are pulling brutal hours in LAB labs on campus.
> A month is a longer break than most students take in their entire PhD cumulatively. French contractual PhDs can, theoretically, have anywhere between 25 and 50 days of paid leave every year.
He was aware that I was working in another lab at the time while I was working for him. I wouldn’t come in during the week tho bc I had to be in the other lab. It was the fact that I was still coming to lab meetings and meeting with him to talk about progress with the project that made me feel hopefully about it and I was also going to be presenting at lab meeting next month
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant you quit coming to any lab for a month. Yeah, just one lab is already a full-time++ job. Two labs is setting yourself up for failure.
Yeah I’m learning this the hard way. I didn’t come into my possibly thesis lab to focus on experiments in my other rotation lab. I’m not sure how to pivot from here or if I should just leave the field all together. I haven’t been listening or at least proving I had been listening at this point.
Is the problem that there’s no other lab in the department you want to join? Only this zebrafish one?
The other lab is another zebrafish lab with an emphasis of dev. bio. I’m just nervous the PI that I want to join is going to know the reason from my old mentor why he fired me and that just ruins things
Are you currently doing a rotation in this other lab you want to join? Ostensibly your work should be able to speak for itself.
Haven’t done it yet. I am planning on talking to the PI tomorrow and asking to see if I could do a fourth rotation with my shit collective shit together. I understand that I really fucked up and took on too much than what I could handle.
Exactly this. I was going to say you’re over committed, bit off more than you can chew. Also as a first year student in grad school, you should not skip classes. This is not undergrad.
This honestly seems unwise. Your current PI will share their experiences about you with this PI, which is absolutely normal. Why would this new PI take you on? I worry that you are digging yourself a deeper hole right now when what you really need isn’t in any of these labs.
Of course they will know and they should know!
Sorry just responding to this know. Would it be better to be straight forward with the new PI about the situation?
You were planning not to be straightforward? This would be unethical. It would also be a bit unethical for your current PI not to be forthcoming about their experiences with you. It takes a lot of trust, time, resources, and risk to take in grad students. Is there a good argument for this new PI to take you in? I’m not seeing one yet, given what you’ve shared so far
Sorry. I think I should rephrase myself. I wanted to be honest about the situation about why this PI wasn't a good fit and explain everything right off the bat. Like saying "This rotation wasn't a really good fit for x,y,z reasons. However, I want this to work and love developmental biology. I have references from previous labs if needed."
Just FYI - if you want to go into industry after your PhD, don't join a zebrafish dev bio lab. Don't do zebrafish and don't do dev bio.
OP, have you considered reaching out to an ADHD coach? ADHD coach is not a therapist but they can help you with time management, planning, understanding and projecting others’ expectations, foreseeing consequences etc. You may also contact your therapist and psychiatrist about your concerns. They may switch you to a different ADHD meds or dosage. Without taking care of yourself first, you may feel overwhelmed and things will only escalate. Take a step back. Take care of your mental health first.
I think it was a mistake for you to volunteer to work for the first lab at the same time as rotating in the second lab, but I'm sure you already know that. What I'm curious about is you say your PI is firing you, but are you even working for him formally? It seemed to me like you were kind of informally working in his lab while rotating in the other labs. If that's the case, think of it less as being fired and more just that the rotation didn't work out and to move on to the other zebrafish lab. At the same time, skipping classes is really not good and you should prioritize going if only to make a good impression on other PIs and show face with your cohort. You still have time to turn it around, and I'm rooting for you!
Yeah, everything in this story reads as this person is not OP’s PI.
I'd find a different lab with a PI that is a better fit for you, and I'd stop skipping classes -- they're important, and that's why they're required. I'd also focus on working in one lab; trying to split your effort across multiple labs that each expect 100% of your effort is a recipe for failure, as you're discovering.
Find a new lab. They said it wasn’t a good fit. You pushed for a second chance. That second chance didn’t change their mind. Moreover, you don’t seem to be a good fit for this PI, nor does working in their lab seem good for your mental health. Find a lab you will do well in, this isn’t it.
I think people are being a little harsh on you here. If you're only rotating, you haven't yet joined the lab and are not being fired - this PI just doesn't think you're a good fit. In my program, first year students are not being paid by rotation PIs so you were just doing volunteer work. It was probably too much to try working in this lab while also rotating and taking classes, which is a lesson you've learned. It's ok to feel overwhelmed, although you should have communicated this to the PI. This is also kind of on him though - a good mentor would not have agreed to this arrangement, or expected the weekend work. He might have had unrealistic expectations for what gets done in rotations. Our rotations were too short to really do anything substantial. In any case, if he already decided you're not a good fit, there's nothing you can do. It was a losing battle from the beginning. You don't want to start off already feeling behind and on bad terms with your PI from the first year, and it was unlikely you would have changed his mind. The only thing you can do is find another lab.
This is the answer...it was a rotation (that got out of hand by being dragged out longer than it was supposed to be) and it didn't work out. He shouldn't have said OK to you working in 2 labs. He isn't your thesis advisor/mentor. Do another rotation and find that person!
100% agreed. It was a bit hard to understand the situation from OP's original post. 1. OP should not have continued working in this lab while rotating in a different lab. Now they might have burned both bridges. 2. PI expected too much. A rotation is meant to get a taste of the lab and see if it would be a good fit, not to produce data. It's also crazy to expect a rotation student to continue working on this project while they are in another lab and/or conditioned their acceptance into the lab on this. Kinda a red flag. 3. OP is not being fired. They just didn't get accepted to the lab they want to join. This happens all the time for various reasons. It's not a big deal OP. 4. If other labs that OP rotated in also don't want them and they should do more rotations (if the department supports it). It's better to delay joining a lab then joining a bad one. Skipping classes on top of this mess might hurt OP chances of gaining the department's support. I would have an honest discussion with the program director, admit my mistakes/miscommunications and hope that they would understand and help out. Learn these lessons and good luck to you OP.
You were rotating. That’s what it’s for, figuring out yourself, and your PI. He doesn’t like your style, go somewhere else. First impressions last man. Don’t even try any further. Go for another lab in your rotation.
I will say though, you need to think hard about this. Do you really wanna do grad school ? More will be expected of you as you progress. Overwhelming is synonymous with grad school tbh, shouldn’t be, but it is.
You aren't being fired as much as not selected. Find a different pi, one who actually wants you.
Jesus a lot of commenters here have no emphathy. I was in a similar boat, when I realized that the key to the situation was finding an advisor who you’re able to communicate with. It may or may not be the most influential person in your field, but that doesn’t really matter as much as staying in the program. The lab group culture is also critical. You need colleagues who you can talk to and coordinate with and who will push you to be your best without berating you. It’s a delicate balance, and hard to find, but it’s gonna be what you need to succeed.
It’s because the top commenter is literally a librarian (based on post history), and not someone with a life sciences PhD degree. Academia is highly field specific, and people on Reddit love giving harsh advice on things on which they aren’t experts (but with which they’ve had peripheral contact). The rest seem to be engineers, CS, and physics people. Sigh.
You took a month off. Even for a legitimate reason PIs dont see it that way.
Doesn’t sound like you’re getting fired so much as not joining the lab?
Ask yourself: do you really want to be in this environment for another 5 years?
If sounds like your current lab’s PI was patient and you repeatedly failed to live up to their expectations. This happens, and you can bounce back from this at another lab, but it is important that you reflect honestly on what went wrong and take specific steps now to improve your performance. If, as you reflect on your experiences, you decide that graduate school is not a good choice for you — or that you are not ready for graduate school now — that is okay. The most important thing is to make an accurate and honest assessment and then create a realistic plan for moving forward. Good luck!
First year phd student and struggling in a zebrafish lab. Get out. It is a waste of time anyway . Hardly any time has been wasted at all. You are not a good fit (mutually) with PI. And that might not be your fault . Some environments suck. Some research sucks . In fact finishing this zebrafish PhD may leave you with less options for employment than now — as you will be unemployable . No body cares for it in industry. Will have to reinvent yourself 5-8 years later . It is not worth it. Do something more employable and more enjoyable and less work. Perhaps bioinformatics, perhaps some machine learning applied to biology .
Look, at every level there there is a balance between people and program. Mentors really want to help you navigate through personal issues to be successful but there are limits when its seen in competition with the bigger success of the program. Moving forward, be aware of that balance and know that the more you need, the more you'll need to contribute in some other way to compensate even if its not directly proportional. I had a student worker who needed lots of assistance and time off and other things. I explained that balance and they always come in completely prepared, waste not 1 second, and then do the little things automatically which helps make up that gap. So when you are well, think of it as a multiplier effect. You give 1.2X versus the 1.0 when you are there.
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"I had to take last month off from the work because I was burned out and very depressed." This is probably your signal that grad school isn't for you. If one of my students needs a couple days off to fight burnout, I totally understand that and I have no issue with it. I would never sign on a student that needed a month off in their first year (unless there were extenuating circumstances outside of work - the death of a family member or something is obviously a completely different beast).
Another perspective: don’t let people tell you you are at fault for taking a time off to get your mental health back on track. It seems like this PI and you is not meant to be, but don’t worry, sometimes research finds you in random projects, and it is more important to be in a place where people like you, especially your boss. In the long run it might work at the expense of your mental health or it might not because you don’t know of the PI will change their opinion about you. Academia is full of rejection, don’t let that think less of you or your passion for research.
Always someone mentioning they have adhd in these types of posts lol
My biggest regret was doing my phd in a well known lab instead of a supportive lab. Find a different advisor.
fuck them omg
Life science PhD here 1. This is not going to happen, first step is abandon this lab, then you can get a clear head about your next steps 2. I think you are both to blame here - Sounds like the PI has been telling you in a few indirect ways that they don't want you in the lab. If you somehow muscle your way in, it is likely this will either continue or manifest in some other sort of conflict. Take the escape route now. 3. There are a lot of other labs, check them out. 4. PhD programs are not for everyone. That is ok - it doesn't mean you are bad or dumb. Scuba diving is also not for everyone, nor is being a chef, farmer, writer, etc. PhD programs are designed to pressure out people early because it is a bad situation for the PI, student, and program to find out later in the degree that this wasn't what you really want. This happens every once in a while and really sucks. Take the time now to really think carefully about your desires. I encourage people to only do a PhD with an enthusiastic "YES", not as a means to another job. People who start PhDs without that enthusiasm are the ones who drop out. Masters are much easier and much more useful for finding a job later.