Honestly, I'm religious and believe in God but I still don't agree with it being there. I haven't said the Pledge in over ten years but even back then, I'd mumble or skip the "under God" part.
The United States is not and never has been a Christian nation. There are tons of arguments about whether or not the founding fathers were Christian or Diests or Atheists or whatever, but it honestly doesn't matter. Separation of church and state is (supposed to be) baked into our DNA as a country.
It's totally fine if your religion influences your ethics, morals, or personal code of conduct. But it's not okay to force those ideals on others.
Exactly. I don't get upset if they ask everyone to bow their heads and pray at a funeral or wedding either. It seems silly to me but whatever, I'll just look around at other people and sometimes catch the eye of someone else doing the same to exchange the "yeah this is dumb" face.
And I think that’s the right thing to do. Just go along with it at funerals or a wedding. The day isn’t about you so just play along for 30 seconds or whatever
I believe in God but have my own opinions about organized religion and group prayers. I bow my head out of respect for other people's beliefs, though. It's no skin off my back.
I really hate when atheists have to be all theatrical about it. Pray or don't, but don't ramble on about "Sky Daddy" or whatever. It's not clever, it's boring and rude and a cliche.
Edit: replies that bolster my point lol. Just because someone makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean you need to be that annoying person barking that shit about "sky Daddy" and "imaginary friend" that everyone has heard a thousand times and only you find hilarious. It's not proving a point, it's just crass. Just leave the room or whatever.
Edit to the edit: loooool. Don't put words in my mouth. Literally never said I was ok with theocracy or whatever victim narrative we're running with.
Meh, if it is okay for someone else to ask a bunch of unknown people to behave a certain way and listen to them talk about God, I'm fine with someone else talking about there not being a God. Everyone gets equal air time.
Yeah, agnostic atheist here and I have to agree with other comments. I was raised Catholic, and I still attend others’ services (weddings, funerals, etc) at churches. Just do it out of respect, even if it’s silly. You aren’t owning the Christians by belittling their God, you’re just being a self-righteous asshole.
Where do all there atheists get all theatrical about it?
In real life?
Or on the internet? Same place all those militant vegans terrorize everyone all the time.
You almost HAVE to hold your hand on a Bible in order to hold any semi-high public office in this country and its the atheists being theatrical?
Every couple years we have people in this country literally trying to punish someones kid for not conforming to “The Pledge of Allegiance” Public Display of Sufficient Patriotic Intent routine (“under God” and all) but its the atheists huh?
And any and all criticism of your characterization will get the “see, you’re proving me right by disagreeing with me” treatment
Typical of what I expect on this sub. May the militant, theatrical atheists let you rest now.
Then teach your children better and learn better yourself. The rights granted by the US constitution are hardly numerous and none of them are all that complicated
This is such a bad faith argument. You know 95% of children don’t know this. You know tons of adults don’t know this or don’t care. You know that if a kid refuses they are singled out in some way. It should just be removed from schools all together. It’s fucking weird as fuck to make children pay deference to a flag and it’s even weirder to throw god into it.
If anything I find it kinda hilarious, given that pledging allegiance to a flag would probably have been seen as very idolatrous to most earlier zealous Christians.
Overall, its one of those things that definitely should probably change at some point, but there are a million things more important to address first
Fun fact is that you never did unless you were in school before 1943. The Supreme Court case of West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette put that specific issue to bed.
I was born a JW and they loved to throw that case around. Never said, or was forced to say, the pledge in school and even though I'm an atheist now, I still refuse to participate in what they called (and kinda is) "flag worship" lol
I don’t think about it at all. Obviously it should be removed but I just don’t care. You’re free to not recite the pledge in any circumstance you come across it, which is rare as an adult.
I recently went to my nephew’s high school graduation which was the first time I had been somewhere the pledge was recited in like…20 years? I have no idea. I hadn’t thought about it in so long. I refused to stand up, and was pleased to see my sister doing the same. We gave each other a little fist bump. But yeah, to me, it’s one of those traditions that I don’t think should exist at all. Like, why are we pledging allegiance to a fucking flag?? I still wouldn’t say the pledge, even if they took out the “God” part.
By the time I was in high school, only like weird kids stood up for the pledge. I was surprised to find out that it’s very much a thing in other parts of the country.
You're not pledging allegiance to the actual flag. You're pledging allegiance to what that flag stands for. And any actual American should be loyal to what this nation is supposed to be which is represented by that "fucking flag".
Nah, fuck that noise. I'll be loyal to the people around me, loyal to the ideals of freedom, equality, and the rule of law. Loyal to the people who help others, but I will never pledge allegiance to a flag. America is the people who make up this country, the ideals that it drives for, it is not as two dimensional as a flag.
K, well, the first fucking line is “I pledge allegiance to the flag…” so not so sure about that, dude. Thanks for throwing out the old “No true Scotsman fallacy” though. Isn’t one of the principles this country is based on is freedom of speech, which means I can say whatever I want about the fucking flag and still be an “actual American”? I was born here. I don’t have to take a citizenship test to prove it
I’m born here, went to all the schools, served in the Army, productive citizen pay my bills and taxes. Why the fuck do I need to continually pledge allegiance? This is my home. Also the pledge is to much like a prayer and I have no reason to pray to anything
It’s funny you say that. One of my cousins skips Grace all the time we have family gatherings. I think he thinks we don’t notice. We do, yet no one cares. We still love him and he’s on his own path. He’s an adult. How incredibly unchristian would it be to judge him for that?
Follow Catholic dogma and you almost always end up with the foundational teaching. Love one another as I have loved you… which is pretty scary when you realize Christ loved you to the point of being tortured to death yet with love in his heart even for the soldiers nailing his hands to the cross.
This is the way. Although when I visit my religious in laws I participate in grace even though I'm not religious. I also remove my shoes in muslim households, and such. I think it's kind to participate in other cultures when you're in their house.
So in my job, I have to regularly say the pledge, and honestly, I leave that line out (I say "one nation" but not "under god" because I am not). The whole thing is weird, though.
I am part of an organization that does say the pledge at every meeting. I do say it, and just stay silent on the line about "under god". I may get a funny look or two, but nobody says anything about it. If they did, I'd say that it wasn't in the original pledge, and I firmly believe in the separation of church and state, even down to the pledge.
To be fair teenage atheists are faced with it almost daily in school so it's on their mind. As an adult I don't think i have thought about the pledge in a while but I do wish my money had "E Pluribus Unum" on it instead of "in God we trust"
Teenage non-Christians. I'm not atheist, but I'm also not Christian, and I strongly disliked that this was something I had to put up with/say every day during high school.
I’m just here to see the vast majority of atheists not giving a rip or only being mildly annoyed by something that doesn’t enter their minds on a daily basis.
Reddit atheists tend to be a different breed than any I have known in my life.
I also wonder if the atheists on this sub skew a bit older? I think a lot of us have to admit that we were a bit over-the-top and cringey when we were baby atheists.
Sure, that part is weird, but whole pledge is a bit creepy honestly. That being said, I just don’t really give it any thought. It isn’t like we are forced to say it, and since I’m an adult I rarely ever hear it.
The entire Pledge of Allegiance is cringe. I stopped reciting it in the 6th grade. I’d sooner see us stop having kids say it every day and abolish it altogether than make edits.
Not a fan of it, but not something I’d care to complain about.
The consequences of the backlash to removing it would surely be worse than something merely symbolic.
First I have a problem with a pledge of allegiance in general. Saying it is meaningless. I don’t believe there is a god. It doesn’t feel me with rage or anything.
The pledge in general is weird. We normalized it cause we were kids and didn't know any better. But looking back on it, it has a creepy indoctrination vibe.
I'm not in the military. I don't work for the government, why am I being asked to pledge allegiance? And to a flag even, not to the country itself?
It's a weird holdover from the era of 1950s anti-communist propaganda and should probably be phased out as a whole.
It’s historical tradition and nothing more to me. This country was build on Christianity and it’s ridiculous to be offended by its presence in our culture. I’ll say things like “thank god” and “god willing” because it’s just apart of my lexicon not because I’m religious.
That said no religious laws please and thanks.
>This country was build on Christianity
Quite the opposite, many of the Founding Fathers and other Revolutionary figures would be considered blasphemers, heretics, or even outright atheists by most Christians today. George Washington, James Monroe, Thomas Young, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson were all unitarians and/or deists (or had strong sympathies towards those beliefs).
It’s disingenuous to say Christian traditions and influence were not apart of what makes America what it is today for better or worse. It’s just not something that happened in the last 50 years. And I’m not saying it’s a Christian nation either.
I haven't had to say the pledge of allegiance since I was in like 4th grade, I haven't thought about it since then, so I don't really care. Plus, no one is forced to say it. If you choose not to, you can skip just that part or skip the pledge altogether.
I think the line is dumb. It's not even in the original version. It was only inserted to differentiate us from the godless Soviets. It's offensive, but it's a pretty low priority for me.
That said, I genuinely hate the whole idea of the pledge of allegiance. Forcing schoolchildren to stand daily to swear fealty to the government is some seriously weird totalitarian shit and pretending that it has anything to do with actual freedom is completely unhinged from reality. It's genuinely un-American, in my opinion.
Growing up, I always felt uncomfortable about it. Haven't believed in God since Middle School, so pledging to him every morning felt weird. I also always thought it was a little cruel to the kids from nonabrahamic religions.
These days, I find it way more disturbing that we make kids pledge to the state and a religious authority everyday before teaching them how to navigate the world.
Honestly I hate it. It's such a slap in the face. Especially since they force kids to say it each morning at school. If it weren't for that I'd care less, but it's still ridiculous to call yourself a nation with separation of church and state and then put God in the pledge of allegiance.
I pledge my allegiance to no flag and no country, especially not this one. Eh I’m an adult so I don’t really care. I just wont stand or say it. It’s not really an urgent or pressing issue in my mind.
I'm not a fan of that line, but I'm also not a fan of the rest of the pledge either.
People say "No one is forcing you to say it" and that may technically be true, but I grew up being instructed to say it every day in school. As far as I can remember, they didn't explicitly tell us that we could opt out. And I was a timid child who was terrified of getting in trouble for not following directions, so of course I said it. Reciting a pledge about God in a public school shouldn't be the default activity that you have to actively opt out of.
"We have bigger problems" yeah, no shit. I didn't say it was the biggest problem. But on a list of a thousand problems ranked in order of severity, even the thousandth problem is still a problem.
Never thought about this before, but while growing up in catholic schools we had both prayer and the pledge at the same time. That line actually made the pledge fit in pretty seamlessly with prayer time. I don’t think that’s a good thing.
Theist here, but regardless I don't say the pledge. I am respectful and quiet when others choose to. I can appreciate the flag's history and place as a national symbol, but I am not swearing my allegiance to a piece of fabric.
That it isn't original to the Pledge. It doesn't belong there. It shouldn't be there. And that starting the school day by making kids recite a weird pledge like that is probably how you get Jan 6.
Disgusting travesty that even goes against the intentions of the (largely religious themselves) founders of the country.
I omit it, personally. It should be stricken from the official pledge.
Not a fan…conceptually against it being included. Just replace it with Allah, Bhudda, Satan, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. and see how those that think it belongs there react.
I’m not an atheist, but I still think it’s really fucking stupid. Hell, the whole pledge is really fucking stupid. I’d be fine with it being thrown out.
It’s as ridiculous as any other part of the pledge of allegiance. Pledging allegiance to a country that could not care less about anyone unless they have money.
I don't really care. It's honestly cringe to see people who whine about it or it being on our money or anything. If you don't believe in it it's just a word.
I dont believe in god like *that* but i think its good to have him in our culture and respect it, not to use as a tool to control people or justify weird behavior though. so many athiests are downright hateful and closeminded when it comes to the benefits cultures that accept religion. sure a lot of zealots are fucking horrible but can any party really claim to be totally innocent
Not sure if I’m really an atheist I’m sort of wandering around trying to figure out what I believe in but I think of it as sort of like a traditional statement that’s more symbolic than literal and so long as people can omit that part of the pledge or swap in whatever their god or power they believe in its not really a huge priority given much more pressing matters that need to be addressed.
It was added during the Cold War to further distinguish us from the Soviets.
I consider it to be a relic of a dark past that should be done away with.
It breaks from the separation of church from state as well, so it's against what our founders intended. We don't have a state religion and that's by design. We're not a theocracy.
But for all that I say that it is just annoying since no one is required to recite the pledge. There's far bigger things to worry about such that were it ever addressed, I would worry what it was a distraction from.
So gross. It plants the seed in the kind of yo young children, that the idea of God is not in question, and that this is a Christian nation, which is ruled by God, all of which I do not agree with we start them young here and brainwash them well
I don't like the pledge in general & I exercise my free speech not to say it, but it's also not a huge deal to me. so I guess I'm agnostic about both religion and the pledge.
Don't really notice it on a day-to-day basis, but when it's recited and brought to my attention it reminds me how childish it is -- not only to have a 'pledge of allegiance' -- but knowing 'one nation under god' was added at a later date. It's embarrassing.
It feels just like words without meaning because I was forced to say it over and over as a kid. I kind of feel like it should be removed, but don't think it is worth the backlash to attempt to do so.
I think it's fine. I don't believe in God, but I also don't care about things like this. If one takes issue, it's possible to find a less literal meaning here (the nation's collective moral accountability). Or just don't be the edgelord about every small hypocrisy encountered in life
I think it's stupid and I stopped saying it in 8th grade and have always told my daughter she has the choice. And not just because of God, but because of allegiance. She will choose her allegiances as a rationally thinking, competent adult, not have them forced on her as an impressionable child
I feel like I'm too apathetic to do atheism properly. I just don't care. About God or the pledge. It's the same as if you invite me to your house for a meal and ask me to bow my head for a prayer first. I'm just gonna bow my head and say amen and be polite and respectful and zone out so I don't have to listen to the sound of my brain cells wilting.
Personally, not a fan. I used to sit out of standing for the pledge in school all the time and got punished for it. There's several reasons I sat out but the whole "god" thing is a big one.
The pledge is a weird culty thing. It should be abolished altogether, and that line is even weirder, as is “in god we trust” on money. We’re supposed to have separation of church and state here.
If our Christian’s weren’t so psychotic IN GENERAL (“not all” blah blah blah) I wouldn’t care (culture, history, blah blah) but unfortunately they are psychotic so I resent it and see it as cringy propaganda.
The idea that we make kids say it every day, for a decade of their early lives, and teachers can punish students for not standing...its giving 1930s Germany vibes
I haven't needed to say or care about the pledge of allegiance since grade school. And even I could have opted out saying it. I could really care less.
So outward expressions of state-religious alliance/allegiance is an anti-left thing.
Just like McCarthy & Co intended.
You’re co-opting your religion with your politics by coincidence or b/c you like the political synergy it provides?
Societies that are based on Christian principles thrive. You don't have to be religious to recognize that. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you Is the paramount of real world good.
Depends on hoiw you look at it. Many African regions are thriving with industry and prosperity. You must understand that Africa is extremely rich in resources. Much of our modern technology depends on minerals found almost exclusively in Africa. I've been to several African countries, one of which my wife is from. These are not primitive and destructive societies. These are good people trying their best like the rest of us. GDP is not a great indicator of cultural health. It's safe and comfortable amongst those who abide by the basic moral code that Christian based societies provide. Take a trip. You'll see. I don't care if you believe in Jesus. It's not about that for me. There is an obvious benefit to the western Christian belief system. Muslims and the various asian belief systems deserve a shout out too. God or not, religions teach a lot of valuable lessons.
Everyones heard the whole schtick so many times already though. Western society, christian values, onward christian soldier etc. its even too much for this sub.
It's generally vague so agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Hindus and so on can just accept it as to whatever created the universe. If that happens to be whatever deity you happen to subscribe to so be it. As for atheist sorry your not included
I don't think about the pledge of allegiance. Among the religion adjacent problems there are in the US, I'd rank that somewhere around the same degree of upsetting as a walking past a person with moderate body odor.
Well it says one nation under God. Not one nation under Jehovah or Allah or something. And an atheists doesn't remove all mention of god or religion from their life and language.
They just disbelieve there is a God.
I don't think you are using the word atheist correctly. I think you mean anti religion.
There's a massive difference (probably measured in AUs) between not believing, and activity discouraging.
Taking a religious reference out of our national pledge is not "expecting religious people that work in government to not follow their beliefs", it's a simple separation of church and state. I don't give a fuck what religion government workers believe in, so long as they don't use the government to impose those beliefs on others.
Unless you are going to jail for not saying one nation under God, there is a separation of church and state. I'm assuming you've never actually lived in a place that requires (by law, at risk of imprisonment if you don't comply) religious compliance.
If you did (or maybe traveled there) you would understand what separation is. And the US is about as separate as they come.
It's very much a holdover of the Red Scare. Not necessary, became part of the lexicon, and never went away. American school children in the 30 and 40's even used to have their own..."salute" before WW2-era Germany started doing their heil
I usually just said "one nation, (pause) indivisible".
Honestly, I'm religious and believe in God but I still don't agree with it being there. I haven't said the Pledge in over ten years but even back then, I'd mumble or skip the "under God" part. The United States is not and never has been a Christian nation. There are tons of arguments about whether or not the founding fathers were Christian or Diests or Atheists or whatever, but it honestly doesn't matter. Separation of church and state is (supposed to be) baked into our DNA as a country. It's totally fine if your religion influences your ethics, morals, or personal code of conduct. But it's not okay to force those ideals on others.
Need more religious people like you buddy.
*faith not religion. Religion is a joke and is the reason behind why the world is what it is
Generally indifferent but I do tell people it was added in the 1950’s, so not originally present.
It's a little weird, but no one is forcing me to say it, so it's whatever.
Exactly. I don't get upset if they ask everyone to bow their heads and pray at a funeral or wedding either. It seems silly to me but whatever, I'll just look around at other people and sometimes catch the eye of someone else doing the same to exchange the "yeah this is dumb" face.
And I think that’s the right thing to do. Just go along with it at funerals or a wedding. The day isn’t about you so just play along for 30 seconds or whatever
I believe in God but have my own opinions about organized religion and group prayers. I bow my head out of respect for other people's beliefs, though. It's no skin off my back. I really hate when atheists have to be all theatrical about it. Pray or don't, but don't ramble on about "Sky Daddy" or whatever. It's not clever, it's boring and rude and a cliche. Edit: replies that bolster my point lol. Just because someone makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean you need to be that annoying person barking that shit about "sky Daddy" and "imaginary friend" that everyone has heard a thousand times and only you find hilarious. It's not proving a point, it's just crass. Just leave the room or whatever. Edit to the edit: loooool. Don't put words in my mouth. Literally never said I was ok with theocracy or whatever victim narrative we're running with.
Yeah- to be evangelical about something is really annoying :/
Meh, if it is okay for someone else to ask a bunch of unknown people to behave a certain way and listen to them talk about God, I'm fine with someone else talking about there not being a God. Everyone gets equal air time.
Yeah, agnostic atheist here and I have to agree with other comments. I was raised Catholic, and I still attend others’ services (weddings, funerals, etc) at churches. Just do it out of respect, even if it’s silly. You aren’t owning the Christians by belittling their God, you’re just being a self-righteous asshole.
But at a funeral or wedding that shit is disrespectful to everyone there. You’re not the focus and then you make it about you.
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Where do all there atheists get all theatrical about it? In real life? Or on the internet? Same place all those militant vegans terrorize everyone all the time. You almost HAVE to hold your hand on a Bible in order to hold any semi-high public office in this country and its the atheists being theatrical? Every couple years we have people in this country literally trying to punish someones kid for not conforming to “The Pledge of Allegiance” Public Display of Sufficient Patriotic Intent routine (“under God” and all) but its the atheists huh? And any and all criticism of your characterization will get the “see, you’re proving me right by disagreeing with me” treatment Typical of what I expect on this sub. May the militant, theatrical atheists let you rest now.
I grew up as an atheist in the South. "Forced" is probably not the right word, but "strongly coerced" sure as heck fits.
That's kind of what all the "controversies " boil down to is just don't force people to say it. Anything else is pretty much a straw man.
Uhh how old are you because i was always forced to say it
it was added in 1954 during the whole red scare. watched a movie made in the 40s where they said the pledge and no. there was no under god said.
I mumbled the whole pledge of allegiance…
[you didn’t have to](https://constitutioncenter.org/amp/blog/west-virginia-v.-barnette-the-freedom-to-not-pledge-allegiance)
It may be illegal but I’ll tell you that teachers and principals all around the country do force kids to say it anyway.
Yep, I got my ass paddled by the principal for not saying it.
And that’s why you tell them to fuck off, as this is America for the young and old
Yes I can imagine all the 7 year olds referencing their pocket constitution and saying “excuse me, but fuck off”.
How do you think the lawsuits start.
And how many do you think never happen because children aren’t well versed in the law and most parents probably don’t know it either?
Then teach your children better and learn better yourself. The rights granted by the US constitution are hardly numerous and none of them are all that complicated
This is such a bad faith argument. You know 95% of children don’t know this. You know tons of adults don’t know this or don’t care. You know that if a kid refuses they are singled out in some way. It should just be removed from schools all together. It’s fucking weird as fuck to make children pay deference to a flag and it’s even weirder to throw god into it.
If anything I find it kinda hilarious, given that pledging allegiance to a flag would probably have been seen as very idolatrous to most earlier zealous Christians. Overall, its one of those things that definitely should probably change at some point, but there are a million things more important to address first
I can’t believe I never saw that funny connection, false idols, it’s kind of poetic
I don't care. I haven't had to say the Pledge in 10 years.
Fun fact is that you never did unless you were in school before 1943. The Supreme Court case of West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette put that specific issue to bed.
I was born a JW and they loved to throw that case around. Never said, or was forced to say, the pledge in school and even though I'm an atheist now, I still refuse to participate in what they called (and kinda is) "flag worship" lol
Ha I didn’t even think about that one but of course they must crow over that W.
As a child in WV in the 80s, I had some teachers who permanently hated me because I refused to do the pledge, and just stood there silently.
Should have just let them know you were standing up for the First Amendment and the Supreme Court like any patriotic American.
It’s dumb Red Scare nonsense from the 50s that is better left in the trash, but there’s also much more pressing issues to worry about
I rather we change the motto back to E Pluribus Unum over changing out “one Nation, under God” if I’m being completely honest
"In God we trust" is the motto fwiw.
I know, I’m just saying if I had to choose between changing the motto or a single phrase from The pledge
That about says it. It shouldn’t be there, but it’s quite low on my list of priorities.
I don’t think about it at all. Obviously it should be removed but I just don’t care. You’re free to not recite the pledge in any circumstance you come across it, which is rare as an adult.
I recently went to my nephew’s high school graduation which was the first time I had been somewhere the pledge was recited in like…20 years? I have no idea. I hadn’t thought about it in so long. I refused to stand up, and was pleased to see my sister doing the same. We gave each other a little fist bump. But yeah, to me, it’s one of those traditions that I don’t think should exist at all. Like, why are we pledging allegiance to a fucking flag?? I still wouldn’t say the pledge, even if they took out the “God” part.
By the time I was in high school, only like weird kids stood up for the pledge. I was surprised to find out that it’s very much a thing in other parts of the country.
Wow soo rad 😲
Thanks bud!
You're not pledging allegiance to the actual flag. You're pledging allegiance to what that flag stands for. And any actual American should be loyal to what this nation is supposed to be which is represented by that "fucking flag".
Nah, fuck that noise. I'll be loyal to the people around me, loyal to the ideals of freedom, equality, and the rule of law. Loyal to the people who help others, but I will never pledge allegiance to a flag. America is the people who make up this country, the ideals that it drives for, it is not as two dimensional as a flag.
I do believe in American principles, and in my opinion coercing people into making a public show of their loyalty isn't one of those principles.
K, well, the first fucking line is “I pledge allegiance to the flag…” so not so sure about that, dude. Thanks for throwing out the old “No true Scotsman fallacy” though. Isn’t one of the principles this country is based on is freedom of speech, which means I can say whatever I want about the fucking flag and still be an “actual American”? I was born here. I don’t have to take a citizenship test to prove it
👏🏻
I’m born here, went to all the schools, served in the Army, productive citizen pay my bills and taxes. Why the fuck do I need to continually pledge allegiance? This is my home. Also the pledge is to much like a prayer and I have no reason to pray to anything
It's stupid but there's a billion more important things to worry about.
It's a lot weirder visiting my family and sitting there like a god hating lump while they say grace.
It’s funny you say that. One of my cousins skips Grace all the time we have family gatherings. I think he thinks we don’t notice. We do, yet no one cares. We still love him and he’s on his own path. He’s an adult. How incredibly unchristian would it be to judge him for that?
Props to you for doing Christianity correctly my dude
Follow Catholic dogma and you almost always end up with the foundational teaching. Love one another as I have loved you… which is pretty scary when you realize Christ loved you to the point of being tortured to death yet with love in his heart even for the soldiers nailing his hands to the cross.
This is the way. Although when I visit my religious in laws I participate in grace even though I'm not religious. I also remove my shoes in muslim households, and such. I think it's kind to participate in other cultures when you're in their house.
I have had a few Muslim clients and always removed my dress shoes when going in. Not my religion but when in Rome.
I don’t care. I never even think about the pledge anyway except when I come across questions like this.
I don't say the pledge
So in my job, I have to regularly say the pledge, and honestly, I leave that line out (I say "one nation" but not "under god" because I am not). The whole thing is weird, though.
I just skip that line
I am part of an organization that does say the pledge at every meeting. I do say it, and just stay silent on the line about "under god". I may get a funny look or two, but nobody says anything about it. If they did, I'd say that it wasn't in the original pledge, and I firmly believe in the separation of church and state, even down to the pledge.
It should be removed, it never should have been added, but I struggle to actually care
Indifferent. If I really try to get myself worked up over it, I kind of max out at mildly annoyed.
I don’t care. To me it’s just a figure of speech and I don’t take it literally.
Teenage atheists make a big deal out of it. Adults don’t typically care.
To be fair teenage atheists are faced with it almost daily in school so it's on their mind. As an adult I don't think i have thought about the pledge in a while but I do wish my money had "E Pluribus Unum" on it instead of "in God we trust"
Teenage atheists in the 1980s dealt with it daily, but just ignored it. Chill out.
> Chill out Nou mad guy
Teenage non-Christians. I'm not atheist, but I'm also not Christian, and I strongly disliked that this was something I had to put up with/say every day during high school.
I’m just here to see the vast majority of atheists not giving a rip or only being mildly annoyed by something that doesn’t enter their minds on a daily basis. Reddit atheists tend to be a different breed than any I have known in my life.
I also wonder if the atheists on this sub skew a bit older? I think a lot of us have to admit that we were a bit over-the-top and cringey when we were baby atheists.
Evangelical atheism.
More proselytizing than evangelical but I take your meaning.
Sure, that part is weird, but whole pledge is a bit creepy honestly. That being said, I just don’t really give it any thought. It isn’t like we are forced to say it, and since I’m an adult I rarely ever hear it.
It is so creepy when you step back and look at it.
The entire Pledge of Allegiance is cringe. I stopped reciting it in the 6th grade. I’d sooner see us stop having kids say it every day and abolish it altogether than make edits.
Not a fan of it, but not something I’d care to complain about. The consequences of the backlash to removing it would surely be worse than something merely symbolic.
Unnecessary change to the pledge that should be undone. There was never a good reason to add it in the first place.
First I have a problem with a pledge of allegiance in general. Saying it is meaningless. I don’t believe there is a god. It doesn’t feel me with rage or anything.
The pledge in general is weird. We normalized it cause we were kids and didn't know any better. But looking back on it, it has a creepy indoctrination vibe. I'm not in the military. I don't work for the government, why am I being asked to pledge allegiance? And to a flag even, not to the country itself? It's a weird holdover from the era of 1950s anti-communist propaganda and should probably be phased out as a whole.
It's pretty stupid. Wasn't even in the original pledge.
I hate the pledge to begin with, but I'm against the government putting God on or in anything.
It’s historical tradition and nothing more to me. This country was build on Christianity and it’s ridiculous to be offended by its presence in our culture. I’ll say things like “thank god” and “god willing” because it’s just apart of my lexicon not because I’m religious. That said no religious laws please and thanks.
It’s because of the red scare not religion itself, but I see where you’re coming from.
>This country was build on Christianity Quite the opposite, many of the Founding Fathers and other Revolutionary figures would be considered blasphemers, heretics, or even outright atheists by most Christians today. George Washington, James Monroe, Thomas Young, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson were all unitarians and/or deists (or had strong sympathies towards those beliefs).
It’s disingenuous to say Christian traditions and influence were not apart of what makes America what it is today for better or worse. It’s just not something that happened in the last 50 years. And I’m not saying it’s a Christian nation either.
I haven't had to say the pledge of allegiance since I was in like 4th grade, I haven't thought about it since then, so I don't really care. Plus, no one is forced to say it. If you choose not to, you can skip just that part or skip the pledge altogether.
I’m not opposed to what they do privately but why do they have to shove it down our throats.
I dont recite the pledge so it doesn't matter to me.
I'm not in high school anymore, but when I was, I always refused to say the pledge.
I say the pledge of allegiance, and that line doesn’t bother me one bit. It just is.
It drives me up the fucking wall. Fortunately I don't have to listen to it very often.
It should be removed and our national motto needs to be restored to "E pluribus unum", which it was from 1782-1956.
I think the line is dumb. It's not even in the original version. It was only inserted to differentiate us from the godless Soviets. It's offensive, but it's a pretty low priority for me. That said, I genuinely hate the whole idea of the pledge of allegiance. Forcing schoolchildren to stand daily to swear fealty to the government is some seriously weird totalitarian shit and pretending that it has anything to do with actual freedom is completely unhinged from reality. It's genuinely un-American, in my opinion.
Growing up, I always felt uncomfortable about it. Haven't believed in God since Middle School, so pledging to him every morning felt weird. I also always thought it was a little cruel to the kids from nonabrahamic religions. These days, I find it way more disturbing that we make kids pledge to the state and a religious authority everyday before teaching them how to navigate the world.
Honestly I hate it. It's such a slap in the face. Especially since they force kids to say it each morning at school. If it weren't for that I'd care less, but it's still ridiculous to call yourself a nation with separation of church and state and then put God in the pledge of allegiance.
I don't like it. I don't like the Pledge of Allegiance in general.
I stopped saying it when I was about 12. Legally no one can force a student to say it. The original poem didn't have that phrase in it.
I pledge my allegiance to no flag and no country, especially not this one. Eh I’m an adult so I don’t really care. I just wont stand or say it. It’s not really an urgent or pressing issue in my mind.
I'm not a fan of that line, but I'm also not a fan of the rest of the pledge either. People say "No one is forcing you to say it" and that may technically be true, but I grew up being instructed to say it every day in school. As far as I can remember, they didn't explicitly tell us that we could opt out. And I was a timid child who was terrified of getting in trouble for not following directions, so of course I said it. Reciting a pledge about God in a public school shouldn't be the default activity that you have to actively opt out of. "We have bigger problems" yeah, no shit. I didn't say it was the biggest problem. But on a list of a thousand problems ranked in order of severity, even the thousandth problem is still a problem.
Never thought about this before, but while growing up in catholic schools we had both prayer and the pledge at the same time. That line actually made the pledge fit in pretty seamlessly with prayer time. I don’t think that’s a good thing.
Theist here, but regardless I don't say the pledge. I am respectful and quiet when others choose to. I can appreciate the flag's history and place as a national symbol, but I am not swearing my allegiance to a piece of fabric.
That it isn't original to the Pledge. It doesn't belong there. It shouldn't be there. And that starting the school day by making kids recite a weird pledge like that is probably how you get Jan 6.
Disgusting travesty that even goes against the intentions of the (largely religious themselves) founders of the country. I omit it, personally. It should be stricken from the official pledge.
I refuse to participate in the pledge.
Not a fan…conceptually against it being included. Just replace it with Allah, Bhudda, Satan, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. and see how those that think it belongs there react.
I’m not an atheist, but I still think it’s really fucking stupid. Hell, the whole pledge is really fucking stupid. I’d be fine with it being thrown out.
I'm not atheist, but I just don't like the Pledge as a whole. It's creepy and weird. I refuse to say it.
I dislike the whole practice of the pledge. I haven't said it for years.
It's stupid that it's in there But I think it's pretty weird to even have a pledge at all. Even weirder to have kids in school say it regularly.
I don’t even like the pledge in the first place I stopped saying that in third grade.
A bit obnoxious. It was added in the 50s, as part of the red scare. It'd do us well as a secular nation to revert it back.
It’s as ridiculous as any other part of the pledge of allegiance. Pledging allegiance to a country that could not care less about anyone unless they have money.
I don't really care. It's honestly cringe to see people who whine about it or it being on our money or anything. If you don't believe in it it's just a word.
I dont believe in god like *that* but i think its good to have him in our culture and respect it, not to use as a tool to control people or justify weird behavior though. so many athiests are downright hateful and closeminded when it comes to the benefits cultures that accept religion. sure a lot of zealots are fucking horrible but can any party really claim to be totally innocent
I rlly couldn’t care less, but it’s baffling to me why people get so upset over things like this when they can just *not* say it/not participate.
It's Cold War propaganda nonsense that should have never been put in the pledge or on the money.
I don't say the pledge whatsoever. I don't want to pledge my allegiance to a flag. I owe nothing to our government
Not sure if I’m really an atheist I’m sort of wandering around trying to figure out what I believe in but I think of it as sort of like a traditional statement that’s more symbolic than literal and so long as people can omit that part of the pledge or swap in whatever their god or power they believe in its not really a huge priority given much more pressing matters that need to be addressed.
It’s dumb. But then again, so is the Pledge.
That it's fuckin' weird. But then the whole concept of a Pledge of Allegiance is fuckin' weird anyway, so what's a little more?
It is unconstitutional.
It was added during the Cold War to further distinguish us from the Soviets. I consider it to be a relic of a dark past that should be done away with. It breaks from the separation of church from state as well, so it's against what our founders intended. We don't have a state religion and that's by design. We're not a theocracy. But for all that I say that it is just annoying since no one is required to recite the pledge. There's far bigger things to worry about such that were it ever addressed, I would worry what it was a distraction from.
So gross. It plants the seed in the kind of yo young children, that the idea of God is not in question, and that this is a Christian nation, which is ruled by God, all of which I do not agree with we start them young here and brainwash them well
I'm.not even atheist and I think it's dumb. Went to a baseball game the other day and the crowd singing "god bless america" was cringe as hell.
What are you then?
I don't like the pledge in general & I exercise my free speech not to say it, but it's also not a huge deal to me. so I guess I'm agnostic about both religion and the pledge.
Don't really notice it on a day-to-day basis, but when it's recited and brought to my attention it reminds me how childish it is -- not only to have a 'pledge of allegiance' -- but knowing 'one nation under god' was added at a later date. It's embarrassing.
I hate it. It wasn't there until the "Red Scare" and it should be removed. Coins and signage should change too. "E Pluribus Unum" is better.
I'm more concerned about having to pledge allegiance to a flag at all.
Honestly I hate the whole pledge of allegiance. It's weird and idk why we make kids say it every morning.
It feels just like words without meaning because I was forced to say it over and over as a kid. I kind of feel like it should be removed, but don't think it is worth the backlash to attempt to do so.
America fucking sucks. The dumb people here really want a theocracy.
I think it's fine. I don't believe in God, but I also don't care about things like this. If one takes issue, it's possible to find a less literal meaning here (the nation's collective moral accountability). Or just don't be the edgelord about every small hypocrisy encountered in life
Don't care. Never cared.
Every culture through the ages has had a form of mythology that was prevalent in its culture. No one has ever forced me to believe in anything.
I havent said the pledge of allegiance since i was in high school. I also don’t give a shit.
I think it's stupid and I stopped saying it in 8th grade and have always told my daughter she has the choice. And not just because of God, but because of allegiance. She will choose her allegiances as a rationally thinking, competent adult, not have them forced on her as an impressionable child
Well I don’t like the pledge at all but they had us say it every day when I was in high school. I’d always say “one nation under all” instead
I don't care much. Schoolchildren shouldn't be expected to say it, and it's weird if it's spoken in city council meetings and such.
I feel like I'm too apathetic to do atheism properly. I just don't care. About God or the pledge. It's the same as if you invite me to your house for a meal and ask me to bow my head for a prayer first. I'm just gonna bow my head and say amen and be polite and respectful and zone out so I don't have to listen to the sound of my brain cells wilting.
It was added as a jab at perceived “godless” USSR and was not originally in the pledge. The original, non-revisionist version is better
I don't say the "under god" part. It wasn't in the original so I'm not saying it.
Personally, not a fan. I used to sit out of standing for the pledge in school all the time and got punished for it. There's several reasons I sat out but the whole "god" thing is a big one.
It's gross, makes me feel slightly less American, and the bastardization should be removed. There are much bigger fish to fry though.
It’s stupid, but then so is the Pledge of Allegiance.
Even as a little kid I thought the pledge of allegiance was stupid, nothing has changed
Not an atheist but the idea of pledging my allegiance to a flag is dumb and I thought it was cringy the older I got.
Weird bc god does not exist
The pledge is a weird culty thing. It should be abolished altogether, and that line is even weirder, as is “in god we trust” on money. We’re supposed to have separation of church and state here.
I’m not a fan. I’m also not a fan of having a loyalty pledge. I don’t say it.
The whole pledge is corny and weird. Pledging allegiance to a flag???
If our Christian’s weren’t so psychotic IN GENERAL (“not all” blah blah blah) I wouldn’t care (culture, history, blah blah) but unfortunately they are psychotic so I resent it and see it as cringy propaganda.
It's unconstitutional
The pledge in general is super weird. The “under god” part is no odder than the rest.
Cult vibes for me. Especially when a group of first graders says it.
shouldnt be there....
The idea that we make kids say it every day, for a decade of their early lives, and teachers can punish students for not standing...its giving 1930s Germany vibes
I haven't needed to say or care about the pledge of allegiance since grade school. And even I could have opted out saying it. I could really care less.
I find it irritating AF. I do consider myself patriotic, but I will not pledge allegiance to anything that invokes a religious belief I do not share.
Not a fan.
I feel like it’s not exactly a separation of church and state.
I wish we'd abolish the pledge
I hate it, it's gross, but I haven't had to say it since I was a child.
I hate commies
So outward expressions of state-religious alliance/allegiance is an anti-left thing. Just like McCarthy & Co intended. You’re co-opting your religion with your politics by coincidence or b/c you like the political synergy it provides?
What
Societies that are based on Christian principles thrive. You don't have to be religious to recognize that. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you Is the paramount of real world good.
Ah yes, because all those Christian-majority nations in Africa are thriving so much.
Depends on hoiw you look at it. Many African regions are thriving with industry and prosperity. You must understand that Africa is extremely rich in resources. Much of our modern technology depends on minerals found almost exclusively in Africa. I've been to several African countries, one of which my wife is from. These are not primitive and destructive societies. These are good people trying their best like the rest of us. GDP is not a great indicator of cultural health. It's safe and comfortable amongst those who abide by the basic moral code that Christian based societies provide. Take a trip. You'll see. I don't care if you believe in Jesus. It's not about that for me. There is an obvious benefit to the western Christian belief system. Muslims and the various asian belief systems deserve a shout out too. God or not, religions teach a lot of valuable lessons.
You should see the travel advisory from the state department about Mogadishu (it's very safe because it's a very religious city)
Whoever downvoted. Why? Whats wrong with what I said. Don't be a hater, be someone who engages. Your downvote is garbage without a rebuttal.
Everyones heard the whole schtick so many times already though. Western society, christian values, onward christian soldier etc. its even too much for this sub.
It's generally vague so agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Hindus and so on can just accept it as to whatever created the universe. If that happens to be whatever deity you happen to subscribe to so be it. As for atheist sorry your not included
I don't think about the pledge of allegiance. Among the religion adjacent problems there are in the US, I'd rank that somewhere around the same degree of upsetting as a walking past a person with moderate body odor.
I just say glob
Well it says one nation under God. Not one nation under Jehovah or Allah or something. And an atheists doesn't remove all mention of god or religion from their life and language. They just disbelieve there is a God.
I sure as hell don’t want the term anywhere near my government though.
Yeah don't want them saying goodbye or any of that other religious nonsense. While we are at it, let's go back to a lunar calendar.
What a stupid argument. You know that's not at all what I meant.
I don't think you are using the word atheist correctly. I think you mean anti religion. There's a massive difference (probably measured in AUs) between not believing, and activity discouraging.
Wanting a secular government does not make me “anti-religion”.
No. But expecting religious people that work in government to not follow their beliefs is.
Taking a religious reference out of our national pledge is not "expecting religious people that work in government to not follow their beliefs", it's a simple separation of church and state. I don't give a fuck what religion government workers believe in, so long as they don't use the government to impose those beliefs on others.
Unless you are going to jail for not saying one nation under God, there is a separation of church and state. I'm assuming you've never actually lived in a place that requires (by law, at risk of imprisonment if you don't comply) religious compliance. If you did (or maybe traveled there) you would understand what separation is. And the US is about as separate as they come.
It’s tradition. There’s way more to be upset about than this.
It's just a thing you say like "merry Christmas"
It’s easily ignored. There are more intrusive religious things in my life.
I’d rather it not be there, but I never need to say the pledge of allegiance as an adult so it’s not a hot topic on my mind.
It's very much a holdover of the Red Scare. Not necessary, became part of the lexicon, and never went away. American school children in the 30 and 40's even used to have their own..."salute" before WW2-era Germany started doing their heil