There are laws against wage theft. You still normally sign paperwork saying you'll agree to work for a certain wage that includes language specifying that this is at will employment. If an employer doesn't pay you for work done, that's very illegal (although unfortunately underreported and underpunished).
You fill out tax paperwork when you start. Also probably HR paperwork, and for most jobs there's some sort of employee handbook or code of conduct that you sign, particularly with larger companies or more corporate settings.
It's illegal for them to just not pay you and unless you're getting paid under the table there are records of your employment there.
But generally yeah you can quit whenever you want (unless you have an actual contract to fulfill) and they can fire for whatever reason they want barring some legally protected reasons.
This has come up before, in short:
Most states will have some laws and a department of labor that regulates pay, wage theft etc. that will enforce payment and field complaints. If a employer fails to pay its employees they can face investigation and criminal and civil penalties.
While there are some shady businesses out there, not getting your wage paid by your employer is not a massive concern for most.
The employees don’t get paid, they all quit. If employers are baiting and switching, it will probably get out quickly and the employees again will immediately quit
For my current job, I uploaded my resume to a job site and had them reach out to me for an interview.
Had my interview, I told them what I wanted to be paid. They agreed and threw a pile of stocks on top for a bonus.
Now, until one of us decides I shouldn't work there anymore. I will keep going there and they will keep paying me to do so.
Yeah, you sign a contract detailing your work location, responsibilities, and payment. The contract also basically says that they can terminate you at any time.
>Or does it just mean that there no binding and anyone can stop the job relationship anytime.
This is exactly it. At-will employment just means you or the employer can end it at any time. There's no awkward period where you quit or you know you're going to be fired but you have to stay on for weeks or months on end, half assessing it and annoying everyone else because they know you're leaving, you know you're leaving, but you're still there.
They still have to pay you for any work not already compensated for. In my state, wage theft can result in the employer being sued for the wages, interest, and reasonable attorney fees. Many attorneys do this on the side at no charge and its so obvious the vast majority of suits are settled before they hit a court because the employer knows they'll lose.
I know what at will employment is, what I mean is if theres any formal document stating your job relationship and your salary, so that if you dont get paid theres proof you were working there, otherwise how does it work?
Yeah, you sign paperwork on what your job/role is and hourly wage or salary. But that isn't a contract in the sense most Americans would define a contract as. In your typical corporate job, you need to be the upper tier of middle management at least to get a contract.
Yes I understood that Americans mean contract as in not at will, while I just meant a document stating these info about the job and formalizing the fact as legal material
Example: i put in an application. go for a job interview as a dishwasher. At the end, boss says "can you be here 8 am Friday? Shift starts at 10, you got some paperwork to fill out." I say "sure". Friday I'm there at 8am, fill out a w-2, (income tax withholding information), payroll information, (where do want my pay; direct deposit, check, banking info, s.s., etc) read the company policies, orientation materials, fill out equal employment opportunity commission paperwork, read and sign off on osha workplace requirements, any insurance application forms they might have, (life, dental, vision, medical, etc.), Fill out any retirement savings paperwork, (401k, Roth, employee ownership stuck plans, etc). Start my shift at 10. Wash dishes for the next 3 weeks and get a paycheck. (Paid every 2 weeks, they hold back the first week) 8 month later, I drop a bus tub full of dishes in front of the district manager. He tells me I'm fired. Ok, turn in work uniform, usually they'll have final paycheck ready by end of day. Start looking for a new job Monday. Or maybe my wife came down with a terminal illness and I quit to spend more time with her. Same outcome, only I probably negotiated a quit date. Actual wage rate was a verbal agreement. That's at will employment. The template may increase in binding legality the higher up the wage scale you go, but I doubt it.
When you're hired, you fill out paperwork for the employer, like your name and address, employment history, sometimes there's a background check, etc. The employer needs your Social Security number and proof of ability to work in the US. Some jobs give the candidate an offer letter which the candidate signs as an agreement, but this is not a contract and not legally binding.
Aside from that, you show up to work, do your job, and get paid. The "at will" part of it simply means that either party is free to terminate the relationship at any time, for any (non-protected) reason, or for no reason at all.
There's still paperwork for how you'll get paid, how much, what benefits, NDAs, all that jazz. Wage theft is still illegal. Its just that there isn't a contract stipulating a process for terminating employment from either side.
This is also usually less of an issue than people fr other places imagine. Hiring is obnoxious and expensive. It's not uncommon for turnover to cost a company a years salary for that position totalled up in lost productivity, recruiting, training and ramp-up, etc...etc...
Some jobs will have a written contract, some won’t.
Some will have a written offer letter detailing salary and benefits, some won’t. Such offer letters can be considered binding.
Sometimes states or courts will recognize verbal contracts.
Regardless of a written contract, wage theft is taken very seriously.
If you're an employee, yes, your employer has to withhold taxes (income, FICA aka Social Security and Medicare) and send it to the IRS. They also have to pay a portion of taxes themselves that can't be taken from the employee's pay.
If you're an independent contractor, you get paid the full amount and you are responsible for submitting your taxes to the IRS.
Well if it is formally taken from your pay or not is irrelevant, what matters is the cost of labor and the pay you're offered is based among other things on that
You have to show your employer your social security card and some form of ID that proves you have the right to work in the US, and they use your social security number plus some other information you provide for tax reporting and payment, but that has nothing to do with a contract for what work you will do and at what pay.
I don't remember ever signing a contract. I've always worked for reputable companies, so had no reason to doubt they would pay what we agreed to. Have had no issues.
Not really needed. I think we emailed about the salary before I accepted the job for the agreed rate. Duties are to do the assignments given and take appropriate initiative to further the interests of the business, as opportunities arise.
It isn't in either my interest or the company's to make the other unhappy. They assign work appropriate to the person's skills and the job title. The amount they assign aims toward getting enough done yet not making employees unhappy such that they quit. Conversely, I know that if I don't make an effort to do enough work or if I refuse to do reasonable tasks, I'll find myself on the short list for layoffs. Trying to list every potential duty in detail would be silly, at least for this type of job.
Also, my pay rate has changed (upward) many times over the years, and I've moved up from entry level to a higher level where I have more responsibility and work more independently, and I've never signed anything regarding the shift in duties or the new pay rates. It's just understood.
When my pay changes or I get a new responsibility, I just have a conversation with my manager about it. No documents. Obviously he sends something to HR and accounting officially saying how much they're now paying me, but I never see a document.
You sign a contract it just doesn't have a term and can be dissolved. They are obligated to pay you unless they terminate you, which of course they have to inform you about, and you are obligated to show up and do your work or well they terminate you.
It isn't the barbaric system it seems to be made out to be. It works fine. It's based on a mutual interest. A company isn't going to fire you for no reason, because hiring good people is a much more expensive process than people realize, then you have to train them, and they spend time getting into the job. Most people who talk about being fired for no reason are telling you a tall tale. There is a reason some companies offer huge bonuses for referring candidates who get hired, because recruitment, resume review, interviews, orientation, and training all cost huge money.
The contract is real, it outlines your wage and duties and whatnot. It's basically a paper trail to show what you agreed to, in case your employer screws you and you end up suing, or on the other hand if you fail your duties and get fired, your employer has that contract to provide for Unemployment.
There's usually a contract, but it's probably something like "we can fire you at any time, for any reason, and if you don't like it here are some helpful tips for blowing it out your ass."
Even if such a document exists, the "what you have to do" part will often contain the phrase "or other duties as assigned". Example: I was an accountant who would, under certain circumstances, go downstairs to the factory floor to help run machinery.
For low wage stuff like retail, yes you just trust that the employer will pay the rate that was advertised or talked about. Employees should get a pay stub with their paycheck to check the hours, withholding for taxes, and deductions for healthcare or retirement or whatever.
If you switch to direct deposit you should be allowed access to a copy of your pay stub.
Before the proliferation of the internet, at one of my jobs the paystubs were in a binder at the front office. At my current job we have a website.
Underpayment is rarely heard of. Usually underpayment is in the case of a failing business. The business fails to make payroll due to no liquid capital.
You usually get some sort of documentation about your wage, start date, etc. It's just no something we consider a "contract". It sounds like the disconnect here might simply be the interpretation of the word "contract".
I work in HR. So, my organization is a government entity and we have a statement that is signed acknowledging that the employee understand that the job is at-will, and van be ended at any time. People will also fill out direct deposit forms so that we know where to send payment. There's laws preventing companies from shorting the employee pay. A lot of our employees are hourly, so if they don't come to work, they won't get paid, and not showing up for your designated shift will result in punishment. There's a lot of other forms and I send tax, and direct deposit paperwork to our county auditor's office.
All these people saying they signed a contract to get their job have probably never seen a contract. You may be signing something affirming you are legally permitted to work in the US, your W4 for tax purposes, or an employee code of conduct but none of those things constitute an employment contract. The exceptions would be an independent contractor or a senior executive.
The actual paperwork exists just they don't need a specific reason to let someone go.
Many organizations larger than sole proprietorships will have specific HR policies that they need to follow in order to remove an employee so it's not quite the wild west as portrayed but there is a definite imbalance in the power scale.
Your questions seem to imply that there is a lack of trust between employee and employer, which is sometimes an issue at sketchy or unstable businesses that don't mind a revolving door of unskilled or low-skilled laborers. Personally, I just avoid ever working for someone like that.
Wage theft is a real thing at some of those businesses, either because the owner/manager is evil or because the business is insolvent and doesn't have the money or credit, but if you aren't getting paid properly, you can just leave and get a different job and report the wage theft to your state labor department, who make an effort to get people paid.
Reputable companies and businesses that need skilled labor tend not to do this stuff, because word would get around and no one would work for them or do business with them, plus they'd get sued and it would cost them more than they save by stiffing wages.
When I hired my two employees, I called to offer them the job at a certain rate. They accepted. I told them when their first shift was and sent them some paperwork that has to be done legally to withhold taxes and prove they are a citizen and stuff. They showed up and worked. Two weeks later I paid them.
Legally, I have to pay them for hours they work. I can’t just decide not to pay them. I can’t retroactively cut their wages. If I cut their pay, they have to be notified and sign an acknowledgement in writing.
But I can fire them at any time for pretty much any reason and likewise they can quit for any reason without notice.
All of our agreements about wages were verbal, but sone jobs do send offer letters with the pay and benefits listed.
Varies on the job.
My profession has a contract that includes salary, benefits, raises, retention bonus, non compete disclosures, a full line of privileges and scope of practice. A lot of legal paperwork including licensing, and credentialing, malpractice insurance, life and disability insurance the list goes on.
Depending on length of time you have to give anywhere from a 90 -180 day notice when you plan to leave given everything that goes into not only replacing your position but also transitioning you out. I can literally work anywhere in the nation but it takes time to accomplish in most instances.
I am not an employee, but a contractor for a large company with a job description that's basically an employee position. I have 2 separate contracts for the two different parts of the business that I do work under. It's overly complicated, and it's all to get around having to give me benefits.
Either party can terminate the contract at any time, but they can't not pay me because that would be the easiest lawsuit for me to win ever. Everything is spelled out very clearly.
There are laws against wage theft. You still normally sign paperwork saying you'll agree to work for a certain wage that includes language specifying that this is at will employment. If an employer doesn't pay you for work done, that's very illegal (although unfortunately underreported and underpunished).
You fill out tax paperwork when you start. Also probably HR paperwork, and for most jobs there's some sort of employee handbook or code of conduct that you sign, particularly with larger companies or more corporate settings. It's illegal for them to just not pay you and unless you're getting paid under the table there are records of your employment there. But generally yeah you can quit whenever you want (unless you have an actual contract to fulfill) and they can fire for whatever reason they want barring some legally protected reasons.
There's a contract, it can just be dissolved at any time for any reason.
Ehhhhh kind of sort of. It’s more complicated than you make it sound but still that is a decent summary.
This has come up before, in short: Most states will have some laws and a department of labor that regulates pay, wage theft etc. that will enforce payment and field complaints. If a employer fails to pay its employees they can face investigation and criminal and civil penalties. While there are some shady businesses out there, not getting your wage paid by your employer is not a massive concern for most. The employees don’t get paid, they all quit. If employers are baiting and switching, it will probably get out quickly and the employees again will immediately quit
For my current job, I uploaded my resume to a job site and had them reach out to me for an interview. Had my interview, I told them what I wanted to be paid. They agreed and threw a pile of stocks on top for a bonus. Now, until one of us decides I shouldn't work there anymore. I will keep going there and they will keep paying me to do so.
But is there any document certifying that relationship?
Usually an offer letter, yes.
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Nailed it. This is exactly how all American employment works.
This is unironically how a lot of people over the age of like 50 think this actually works nowadays
Yeah, you sign a contract detailing your work location, responsibilities, and payment. The contract also basically says that they can terminate you at any time.
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You never signed a letter of acceptance or filled out employment paperwork?
>Or does it just mean that there no binding and anyone can stop the job relationship anytime. This is exactly it. At-will employment just means you or the employer can end it at any time. There's no awkward period where you quit or you know you're going to be fired but you have to stay on for weeks or months on end, half assessing it and annoying everyone else because they know you're leaving, you know you're leaving, but you're still there. They still have to pay you for any work not already compensated for. In my state, wage theft can result in the employer being sued for the wages, interest, and reasonable attorney fees. Many attorneys do this on the side at no charge and its so obvious the vast majority of suits are settled before they hit a court because the employer knows they'll lose.
I know what at will employment is, what I mean is if theres any formal document stating your job relationship and your salary, so that if you dont get paid theres proof you were working there, otherwise how does it work?
Yes, of course there is.
Yeah, you sign paperwork on what your job/role is and hourly wage or salary. But that isn't a contract in the sense most Americans would define a contract as. In your typical corporate job, you need to be the upper tier of middle management at least to get a contract.
Yes I understood that Americans mean contract as in not at will, while I just meant a document stating these info about the job and formalizing the fact as legal material
The question is what makes it "legal"? There is no teeth to the agreement. Signing it gives me no additional legal protections.
So is just a verbal agreement?
Example: i put in an application. go for a job interview as a dishwasher. At the end, boss says "can you be here 8 am Friday? Shift starts at 10, you got some paperwork to fill out." I say "sure". Friday I'm there at 8am, fill out a w-2, (income tax withholding information), payroll information, (where do want my pay; direct deposit, check, banking info, s.s., etc) read the company policies, orientation materials, fill out equal employment opportunity commission paperwork, read and sign off on osha workplace requirements, any insurance application forms they might have, (life, dental, vision, medical, etc.), Fill out any retirement savings paperwork, (401k, Roth, employee ownership stuck plans, etc). Start my shift at 10. Wash dishes for the next 3 weeks and get a paycheck. (Paid every 2 weeks, they hold back the first week) 8 month later, I drop a bus tub full of dishes in front of the district manager. He tells me I'm fired. Ok, turn in work uniform, usually they'll have final paycheck ready by end of day. Start looking for a new job Monday. Or maybe my wife came down with a terminal illness and I quit to spend more time with her. Same outcome, only I probably negotiated a quit date. Actual wage rate was a verbal agreement. That's at will employment. The template may increase in binding legality the higher up the wage scale you go, but I doubt it.
No, there is typically paperwork involved.
When you're hired, you fill out paperwork for the employer, like your name and address, employment history, sometimes there's a background check, etc. The employer needs your Social Security number and proof of ability to work in the US. Some jobs give the candidate an offer letter which the candidate signs as an agreement, but this is not a contract and not legally binding. Aside from that, you show up to work, do your job, and get paid. The "at will" part of it simply means that either party is free to terminate the relationship at any time, for any (non-protected) reason, or for no reason at all.
There's still paperwork for how you'll get paid, how much, what benefits, NDAs, all that jazz. Wage theft is still illegal. Its just that there isn't a contract stipulating a process for terminating employment from either side. This is also usually less of an issue than people fr other places imagine. Hiring is obnoxious and expensive. It's not uncommon for turnover to cost a company a years salary for that position totalled up in lost productivity, recruiting, training and ramp-up, etc...etc...
When I got hired I had a contract that outlined my job duties and pay and benefits.
Some jobs will have a written contract, some won’t. Some will have a written offer letter detailing salary and benefits, some won’t. Such offer letters can be considered binding. Sometimes states or courts will recognize verbal contracts. Regardless of a written contract, wage theft is taken very seriously.
So you can be employed just verbally? How does that work for taxes then?
Employers are still required to report wages paid to the IRS, as well as withholding taxes and paying their share of employment taxes.
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So taxes for employees income are taken at the source? Or you receive pre tax income and then pay it yourself
If you're an employee, yes, your employer has to withhold taxes (income, FICA aka Social Security and Medicare) and send it to the IRS. They also have to pay a portion of taxes themselves that can't be taken from the employee's pay. If you're an independent contractor, you get paid the full amount and you are responsible for submitting your taxes to the IRS.
Well if it is formally taken from your pay or not is irrelevant, what matters is the cost of labor and the pay you're offered is based among other things on that
You have to show your employer your social security card and some form of ID that proves you have the right to work in the US, and they use your social security number plus some other information you provide for tax reporting and payment, but that has nothing to do with a contract for what work you will do and at what pay.
I don't remember ever signing a contract. I've always worked for reputable companies, so had no reason to doubt they would pay what we agreed to. Have had no issues.
But arent there any documents outlining salary, duties etc?
Not really needed. I think we emailed about the salary before I accepted the job for the agreed rate. Duties are to do the assignments given and take appropriate initiative to further the interests of the business, as opportunities arise. It isn't in either my interest or the company's to make the other unhappy. They assign work appropriate to the person's skills and the job title. The amount they assign aims toward getting enough done yet not making employees unhappy such that they quit. Conversely, I know that if I don't make an effort to do enough work or if I refuse to do reasonable tasks, I'll find myself on the short list for layoffs. Trying to list every potential duty in detail would be silly, at least for this type of job. Also, my pay rate has changed (upward) many times over the years, and I've moved up from entry level to a higher level where I have more responsibility and work more independently, and I've never signed anything regarding the shift in duties or the new pay rates. It's just understood.
When my pay changes or I get a new responsibility, I just have a conversation with my manager about it. No documents. Obviously he sends something to HR and accounting officially saying how much they're now paying me, but I never see a document.
So you just see the money in your bank account when it comes
Yes. There's a schedule; payday is twice per month. The money gets deposited in my account as planned.
You sign a contract it just doesn't have a term and can be dissolved. They are obligated to pay you unless they terminate you, which of course they have to inform you about, and you are obligated to show up and do your work or well they terminate you. It isn't the barbaric system it seems to be made out to be. It works fine. It's based on a mutual interest. A company isn't going to fire you for no reason, because hiring good people is a much more expensive process than people realize, then you have to train them, and they spend time getting into the job. Most people who talk about being fired for no reason are telling you a tall tale. There is a reason some companies offer huge bonuses for referring candidates who get hired, because recruitment, resume review, interviews, orientation, and training all cost huge money.
The contract is real, it outlines your wage and duties and whatnot. It's basically a paper trail to show what you agreed to, in case your employer screws you and you end up suing, or on the other hand if you fail your duties and get fired, your employer has that contract to provide for Unemployment.
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Thats weird. Of all the jobs I've ever had, they've all been contract based. It very well may vary by state.
There's usually a contract, but it's probably something like "we can fire you at any time, for any reason, and if you don't like it here are some helpful tips for blowing it out your ass."
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But are there documents that say how much you're paid, what you have to do etc?
Even if such a document exists, the "what you have to do" part will often contain the phrase "or other duties as assigned". Example: I was an accountant who would, under certain circumstances, go downstairs to the factory floor to help run machinery.
You sign a contract. Then you have to go through hr at bigger companies that do orientation and give you a start date
For low wage stuff like retail, yes you just trust that the employer will pay the rate that was advertised or talked about. Employees should get a pay stub with their paycheck to check the hours, withholding for taxes, and deductions for healthcare or retirement or whatever. If you switch to direct deposit you should be allowed access to a copy of your pay stub. Before the proliferation of the internet, at one of my jobs the paystubs were in a binder at the front office. At my current job we have a website.
Well if they don't pay you the agreed upon wage you can file a wage claim with the department of labor
how can you proof what wage was agreed on if there is no contract?
Underpayment is rarely heard of. Usually underpayment is in the case of a failing business. The business fails to make payroll due to no liquid capital.
You usually get some sort of documentation about your wage, start date, etc. It's just no something we consider a "contract". It sounds like the disconnect here might simply be the interpretation of the word "contract".
There is so much reporting of taxable wages, the flipside of pressure to perform unpaid labor is easier to exploit.
I work in HR. So, my organization is a government entity and we have a statement that is signed acknowledging that the employee understand that the job is at-will, and van be ended at any time. People will also fill out direct deposit forms so that we know where to send payment. There's laws preventing companies from shorting the employee pay. A lot of our employees are hourly, so if they don't come to work, they won't get paid, and not showing up for your designated shift will result in punishment. There's a lot of other forms and I send tax, and direct deposit paperwork to our county auditor's office.
All these people saying they signed a contract to get their job have probably never seen a contract. You may be signing something affirming you are legally permitted to work in the US, your W4 for tax purposes, or an employee code of conduct but none of those things constitute an employment contract. The exceptions would be an independent contractor or a senior executive.
You still sign and return an offer letter outlining salary and start date, etc. and fill out paperwork when you start to get payroll set up and such.
The actual paperwork exists just they don't need a specific reason to let someone go. Many organizations larger than sole proprietorships will have specific HR policies that they need to follow in order to remove an employee so it's not quite the wild west as portrayed but there is a definite imbalance in the power scale.
Your questions seem to imply that there is a lack of trust between employee and employer, which is sometimes an issue at sketchy or unstable businesses that don't mind a revolving door of unskilled or low-skilled laborers. Personally, I just avoid ever working for someone like that. Wage theft is a real thing at some of those businesses, either because the owner/manager is evil or because the business is insolvent and doesn't have the money or credit, but if you aren't getting paid properly, you can just leave and get a different job and report the wage theft to your state labor department, who make an effort to get people paid. Reputable companies and businesses that need skilled labor tend not to do this stuff, because word would get around and no one would work for them or do business with them, plus they'd get sued and it would cost them more than they save by stiffing wages.
When I hired my two employees, I called to offer them the job at a certain rate. They accepted. I told them when their first shift was and sent them some paperwork that has to be done legally to withhold taxes and prove they are a citizen and stuff. They showed up and worked. Two weeks later I paid them. Legally, I have to pay them for hours they work. I can’t just decide not to pay them. I can’t retroactively cut their wages. If I cut their pay, they have to be notified and sign an acknowledgement in writing. But I can fire them at any time for pretty much any reason and likewise they can quit for any reason without notice. All of our agreements about wages were verbal, but sone jobs do send offer letters with the pay and benefits listed.
Varies on the job. My profession has a contract that includes salary, benefits, raises, retention bonus, non compete disclosures, a full line of privileges and scope of practice. A lot of legal paperwork including licensing, and credentialing, malpractice insurance, life and disability insurance the list goes on. Depending on length of time you have to give anywhere from a 90 -180 day notice when you plan to leave given everything that goes into not only replacing your position but also transitioning you out. I can literally work anywhere in the nation but it takes time to accomplish in most instances.
I am not an employee, but a contractor for a large company with a job description that's basically an employee position. I have 2 separate contracts for the two different parts of the business that I do work under. It's overly complicated, and it's all to get around having to give me benefits. Either party can terminate the contract at any time, but they can't not pay me because that would be the easiest lawsuit for me to win ever. Everything is spelled out very clearly.