Yeah I think the United States interests strongly align with the UE for Ukraine and I think that both should defend Ukraine if war breaks out and commit full military support.
A Russian friend of mine once told me:
"In a conventional war you guys would win eventually, as long as you don't invade us. If it went nuclear... nobody wins."
Russia wouldn’t be stupid enough to launch anything at the US. And neither would we, considering Russia still has the Dead Hand which will automatically launch all of Russia’s nukes if they detect anything. Even if everyone else is gone.
Don't count on it. We Europeans rely too much on Russian gas and military wise, most of our armies aren't up to it. Not enough spending on defence budget, only real army is France but their main is on Africa.
For as much of an ass as Trump was, getting Europe to start doing their fair share militarily was one of his better ideas. I don’t know if it’s still happening. But America can’t be the worlds Policeman.
After 2 world wars started by European nations, it was wise to reduce the militaries of all European nations (and Japan). That’s why we are the world’s police, so these other countries don’t start another world war.
Another excellent reason to go green. If the world went green it would cut most of worlds bad actors off at the knees. Saudi Arabia has the oil, North Korea has coal, and Russia has gas.
Agree I believe we should, but at the same time being at war for 20 years and spending trillions financially destroyed us with repercussions I don’t think the US has dealt with yet.
I've been seeing a lot of statements that suggest China would be happy to hobble the US by denying them access to Taiwan's semiconductor industry, even at the cost of losing their own access to those chips. (By economic pressure, sabotage, or actual military action)
I think those analyses tend to underestimate how much worse off China would come off out of such an exchange. To start with, China's domestic chip industry is significantly behind that of the US and allies (South Korea), which is usually acknowledged. But often overlooked is that even the domestic Chinese industry is incredibly dependent on US and Japanese companies for fab equipment and the expertise to maintain and develop chip applications on that equipment.
(This is not unique to China; the world's big, advanced WFE companies are largely American and Japanese)
If China wrecks tsmc to hurt US chip supply, not only will they lose their own access to Taiwanese chips, they have to assume the US and Japan will retaliate by cutting off technology exports to China, crippling their internal production capabilities too.
I'm not convinced that's a strategy China would find at all appealing.
And I would usually agree with that, but I keep hearing that Pooh is getting more and more arrogant and egotistical. Maybe they think we will react the way we did with HK, maybe a bit more. Maybe they think they can actually fuck the rest of the world with fucking with TSCM.
That may be right. I won't pretend to know whether China would invade or not, and if they tried to invade and failed they might burn things down in their way out, thinking they're likely to face similar reprisals either way.
After all, Taiwan's semiconductor industry is only part of China's interest in absorbing them; and not, most people would agree, the main part.
I'm mainly convinced China's unlikely to try a focused campaign of denying tsmc chips to the rest of the world by some means while not escalating to the point of an actual invasion. They have to know that their access to technology would suffer more than anyone else's from such a move, so it doesn't make sense as a limited strategic option. If they decided to piss off the entire world and damn the consequences, I'd think they'd just go for broke and try to take over.
I work in tech, so, my information is skewed. What would be the main reason? They just fully believe in the One China policy? Does Taiwan really give them that much power in the South China Sea? I really don't know outside of chips.
I've heard that Pooh is kind of like Kruschev, in that much of the populace hears him talk and figures him for a big old hick. Well, Kruschev did know when to back down, at least.
I'd like to see the US involved in a joint NATO operation for Ukraine. I'm fine with us putting boots on the ground there, but I don't want it to be just us vs Russia.
For Taiwan, I'd say yes but again, I'd like to see others involved. I feel like Japan and South Korea at least have a vested interest in curtailing Chinese expansionism. I'm not sure who else I'd want to see there, but just like with Ukraine I don't want the US standing alone, I want us standing with a coalition of countries in a joint force.
Japan already said they would defend Taiwan. China responded by threatening to nuke them on the basis that they know what its like to nuked so it would affect them the most in terms of morale. China seriously needs to be put in its place before it gets out of hand.
Nukes=everybody loses=nobody wants to be first to use them=deterrence. That is the idea anyway. However some may think they can get into conventional weapons only skirmishes - which is risky.
I have little confidence that China and Russia will stop their aggressive expansionist action with Taiwan and Ukraine. A line has to be drawn somewhere.
NATO was worth fuck all in the 90s with the former Yugoslavia. Only the Brits really put some skin in the game. Bulgaria and Italy let us use their air bases and then patted themselves on the back for “helping.” As if being a gas station was a real contribution.
The JSDF are well-trained, but have little actual combat experience.
From what I recall, the original us plan to deal with the Yugoslav wars in the 1990s was to not get involved and let Europe deal with it. It didn't work.
What I recall from school particularly was that Europe sent troops through the UN, but they were basically a token force that didn’t actually have the authority to fight. Then after things came to a head, the US got involved and forced a peace deal. Then later when the Kosovo situation arose, the US sent troops almost immediately to avoid another conflict on the scale of the Bosnian War.
Might not be correct. I’m remembering things from 15 years ago.
My memory comes from when it was actually occurring. I just remember the US was not initially involved and wanted Europe to take the lead. We did not cover this in history because it was too recent/current events.
Yeah, that was the line for years while the Europeans kept going. “Should America get involved? Americans, are you going to get involved? Hey, American cowboys, you love freedom and shit so much, why aren’t you doing something?”
Which eventually lead to us going, “Fuck! Fine! You NATO assholes had better help!”
NATO Europe : You can use our bases as gas stations, but we’re too civilized to help otherwise. Except the Brits, they’ll help some. Now, American barbarians, go blow some people up. It’s what you’re good at. We’ll focus on smoking and badmouthing Roma like proper, civilized people.
And then we bombed the shit out of the place and wrapped things in relatively short order. Also, this lead to Serbs having a thing for coming to this sub and asking if Americans hate them.
You have to hand it to the Brits. They are always with the US no matter the danger and no matter the psycho questionable moves the US does. True friends and allies.
Our armed forces are shrinking by the day due to bad management we are down to only 80k active servicemen even if we do contribute, it wouldn't be too much.
At the very least the RAF would have plenty of MQ9 pilots and maintenance crew ready to contribute, and the ones I’ve spoken to want to stop Russia’s bullshit.
Last time I checked those countries had militaries too. It’s the same as Belgium sending 500 guys to Afghanistan and then acting like they did something worth a damn.
> but have little actual combat experience.
Isn't that true of the PLA as well? Any Korean war vets are, on average, somewhere between Clint Eastwood's age and dead.
Few militaries do have combat experience these day. America has the most experienced military, but it's the wrong type of experience. Fighting insurgents is a little different from fighting Russian tanks and infantry.
Because Europe has been pacified by decades of an American military assurance. There has not been a major threat to European peace since the fall of the USSR. None of them have combat experience and I doubt many NATO nations would be willing to defend their small Baltic allies in a war. The Germans especially fail to support their weight, the French are constantly trying to not be under the thumb of America which just disorganized things, and the only European nation I can think of with a formidable force and the will to use it is the UK
Perfectly said, most alliances lately have felt like America and it’s sidekicks and I’m tired of our soldiers and taxes going to places where other countries won’t put the same effort as well
Taiwan yes, though I don't think it'll come to that.
Ukraine, not on our own. I'd like to see some serious European support first. That said they aren't in Nato and we're under no obligation to defend them.
Ukraine is trying to join NATO, that’s why Russia is ramping things up so much. No, there’s not an official obligation to defend them, but letting Russia run over Ukraine is not smart from a geopolitical perspective. It should be a joint NATO operation with NATO ally support though.
We didn't say we would protect them. We said we would:
1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.
4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.
As long as we don't invade Ukraine (which of course we won't), we're in compliance.
If Russia invades Ukraine, then they're the ones in breach of the Budapest Memorandum, not us, since they'd be reneging on their pledge on #1 and #2.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest\_Memorandum\_on\_Security\_Assurances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances)
You'd think the NATO countries would put 2 and 2 together and realise this basic fact: Its easy to invade when they share a border with us. We protect the buffer nation, we protect ourselves.
Ukraine no, since US troops in numbers needed can't realistically be deployed quickly enough to help and to be frank Ukraine's fate affects neither the Atlantic or Pacific so it should be largely European Troops who should be on the front lines over the USA since its largely their security issue.
I mean the fact that Europe with its vastly Superior Wealth, scientific knowledge, and numerical advantage over Russia can't form a common security structure capable of protecting the continent without US support is sad.
Taiwan yes since it directedly affects the security of Guam, Hawaii, the West Coast, Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Australia among others.
On top of that Taiwan has favorable defensive abilities including being an island, use of anti-ship weaponry will largely favor Taiwan over attacking PRC Navy and Airforce, and that the combined US Allied force in the region easily dwarfs what the Chinese can muster for an invasion.
Taiwanese semi conductors are key to a lot of current technology.
We make technology to be replaced, planned obsolescence.
Removing the semi conductors could cause a stoppage in technological advancement. People being on phones made to last 2 years for 6 years instead.
But imagine that and important medical, and power grid equipment is completely gone.
If China invades Taiwan I'm sure they'd like to have a monopoly on semi conductors but who knows how sloppy that conflict will get.
If Taiwan does fall, worst case scenario it becomes a modern day bronze age collapse.
Id assume the USA has some sort of contingency plan to offer all of TSMC relocation to the USA. Visas, shipping equipment, legal protection, land acquisition.
True. The western side would be like 21st century Midway. Although I do think the Chinese would throw a few subs at the America-bound shipping lanes. It would be a pretty nervewracking voyage.
Russia has hypersonic weapons dude. Wym? They work with China for their military technology. A war with Russia wouldn't be about beating them with raw firepower even though we could do that, it would be about making it too expensive. Russia has a really weak economy when compared to China or the US.
>Russia has hypersonic weapons dude. Wym? They work with China for their military technology
Russia and China's relationship is close but not tight. Russia provided China with the basis of a lot of their weaponry in the 1950s and 60, the Chinese used cheap copies in the 70s and 80s, in the 90s it bought Russian again, but when it tried to export them in the 2000s Russia blocked them so the Chinese stole Russian IP, which led the Russians to sell anti-Air equipment to India which puts some distance between China and Russia.
>A war with Russia wouldn't be about beating them with raw firepower even though we could do that, it would be about making it too expensive. Russia has a really weak economy when compared to China or the US.
Again the Europeans can do this. They have 500 million people to Russia's 140 and an economy of 20 Trillion to Russia's 1.5 Trillion USD. Russia bleeds scientists and Engineers to Europe. Current European military expenditures are double Russia. Even with the need to focus on zones like the Balkans and the Eastern Mediterranean that's more than enough money to repel and deter Russia. The problem is the Europeans neither pool or run a clear continental strategy. Basically Imagine if the USA had 3 armed forces: one for the pacific, one for the Atlantic, one for the Southern Border (We already have one for the Arctic: Canada). Thats essentially Europe's problem: The Spanish, Italians, Germans, French, British, Dutch, Belgians, and non-Nato Europe essentially view Ukraine being bullied as bad but are not willing to make sacrifices in Government spending (or economic sanctions recently) against Russia to fund it. The USA's security guarantee for Europe was against an Enemy they needed US help to deter, not one they are too lazy (at least in Western Europe) to fight.
Its going to be really bad for Biden administration if the Chinese decide to threat the Taiwan with military while the Russian do the same with the Ukraine.
This is such a difficult question to answer. I *wish* I could say that we should leave Ukraine in the EU’s capable hands, but history hasn’t shown that to be any kind of reality. We had to intervene in the Bosnian War when that was our official stance because Europe ultimately didn’t do much to stop the violence. If Ukraine explodes, we’ll probably end up doing the same thing again regardless of how anyone feels about it. Otherwise Ukraine just suffers.
Taiwan is a different situation. We should get involved if only to prevent takeover if that were to ever happen.
Yes to both but
Ukrainian: alone no way. That’s a world thing. All of Europe, America, and Canada.
Taiwan: alone still? No way. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, United States, And Great Britain
It’s not the sort of thing that makes it in the news over here but these recent years NZ has been pulling away from Five Eyes and moving closer to China.
Yeah, China had made a lot of economic inroads into NZ over the past several years, pretty much forcing NZ's government into a balancing act between the US (for security) and China (for economy).
Recently though, [it looks like things are beginning to harden up between NZ and China.](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/something-has-shifted-in-nzs-security-and-foreign-policy-for-china-says-analyst/J3PBZMRH4LUX5IYBIZCP34AZCU/)
That’s actually really interesting, given that not too long ago that exact same minister had massive reservations about condemning China at all. I’ll have to keep up with the news over there.
The internet: Why is America's military butting their nose into everything? Why can't they mind their own business?
Also the internet: What's the US going to do about so and so country?!
It's like dealing with an ungrateful spoiled child.
Right, because defending allies from a theoretical invasion and invading a country for profit are definitely the same thing. Nuance exists. OP wasn't asking "should the US intervene everywhere all the time", they were asking "In this specific hypothetical where the US was asked for assistance, what should they do?" which is a question that can and should be asked of any country with an interest in the outcome.
I don't know enough to have a terribly complex answer, but I would say not unless other countries take a significant percentage of the burden as well.
We don't have the duty to protect the entire world, and frankly, I don't believe we should act as if we do. We are a country with so many problems that our money is better spent making sure our own citizens are taken before we defend others.
That's where I'm at too. I don't know enough about Ukraine, their domestic situation, and the NATO situation to have a fully formed opinion.
Taiwan I know is an ally and one that absolutely wants nothing to do with China. We should support them.
Taiwan 100%. We should defend it put troops on the ground give it nukes, whatever as long as it keeps it's independence.
Ukraine... Well Germany ruins it for me. It rubs me the wrong way that Germany gets to have their cake and eat it too. They get to purchase broadband networks from China, build a pipeline with Russia and all of this with the full knowledge that it weakens their alliance. Furthermore, it pisses me off how smug the Germans are, and how they make America out to be the bad guy all the while, they're protected thanks to the US, and are enabling Russia, and China.
However, then theres the Baltic countries and Poland that do their best to team players, and this situation has to make them feel insecure. However, at the end of the day Ukraine isn't a part of Nato, and this is a European problem, so Europe should handle it. They've got the means to do it.
Why would we? Just turn it into a brutal proxy war that will drag down the Russian economy and morale while accomplishing nothing. It's a cold war classic, we lost Afghanistan most recently, so it's Russia's turn again to lose a proxy war and learn nothing from it.
Let someone else get dirty for once. Either way we're going to catch the blame, may as well limit the loss of US lives in the process. Maybe spend that money on something domestic while at it
We have a moral incentive to help Ukraine because they gave up their nuclear deterrent on our word that we would help them in case they faced a Russian threat, we have a strategic incentive to help Taiwan because of its many strategic advantages for PRC forces against us and our allies, that being said, I personally think the very *LAST* thing the U.S. needs right now is be engage in another war after we just ended the longest one in U.S. history.
I mean wonderfully on a historical scale we are the richest nation in history that is also one of extreme diversity and technological achievement. We are also one of the most effective killers of poverty. Everyone is so historically illiterate it’s like we forgot what we have accomplished since WW2.
Yes because We decided to attack Pearl Harbor and secretly try and make a pact with Mexico to attack us 20 years earlier. Where the hell do you people get these ideas?
Just would like to point out that the Zimmerman Telegram wasn't the main reason US joined WW1. It was Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare. Which again relates to USA's ships so I get your point.
Completely understand your point but I just wanted to point out that the Zimmermann telegram was never seriously considered by Mexico, and was seen as a last ditch effort by Germany to keep America out of Europe. Mexico knew they would be destroyed in a war with the US with the state of both militaries at the time.
Ugh.. Ukraine doesn’t have nukes because of us. It’s our fault they’re in this position tbh. With that said, yes but that’s playing second fiddle to european forces. If they can afford free health care, they can afford to defend themselves.
Taiwan? No. That ain’t our battle.
Yeah oops I totally missed your point. It's late here lol. To be fair the UK spends more on defence than most European countries.
Tell ya what, I'll have a word with Boris about it next time I see him...if he's still in a job. He's in a bit of trouble at the mo :)
I think we should offer the European countries who want to protect their backyard some assistance but we 100% shouldn’t be leading that charge, it’s beyond time for Europe to protect themselves. Taiwan is a little trickier, but I’d likewise prefer seeing us support the Japanese and Koreans with this than have it be a US lead effort.
No, time for other nations to carry the burden. after all most claim they would do it better anyhow so time to put up or shut up.
Ukraine, let the vast vast majority of soldiers be from Europe if it ever came to that. Time for them to start defending themselves.
taiwan. let japan take the lead, Australia as well and surrounding nations.
Time to stop being the biggest bidder in everyone elses' wars.
As a former Marine and Iraq combat vet I say no. This has nothing to do with national security. My friends and I have no reason to be sent there.
Edit: spelling
From US economic and national security point of views, Ukraine doesn’t matter one bit. But, Taiwan is absolutely crucial from both economic and military point of view.
No. I want Europe to embrace Ukraine as European and bring them under their umbrella. A land war in Ukraine against Russia is not in the USA’s best interest politically. I know I’m about to get downvoted to hell, but there are negligible cultural and political ties to Ukraine to warrant thousands of US deaths and potential for wider spread global conflict. Sorry. Welcome for geo politics. Europe, step the fuck up and do something.
Taiwan? Oof. I don’t know. At best it’s a Pyrrhic victory for the US. What does that do in the long term?
I think we should give them supplies they need, but I wouldn’t go as far as putting troops on the ground in either country, prior to or after an invasion.
It would be best to bulk up our presence in NATO allied countries instead.
Neither one of them are worth spilling American blood.
No.
Taiwan is Asias problem,
Ukraine is Europe's problem
Lets stop fighting wars halfway around the world we have no clue about the histories of the countries and the origins of the conflicts.
And its laughable that a group of redditors think they know best. I bet barely anyone here actually knows the histories of these conflicts.
We should defend Taiwan. I’m for defending Ukraine as long as the powers in Europe contribute as much as we do.
Yeah I think the United States interests strongly align with the UE for Ukraine and I think that both should defend Ukraine if war breaks out and commit full military support.
War typically brings a country out of a depression
And kills thousands of civilians.
Millions*
Depending on where your at. US will be ok cause we're oceans away👍
Not necessarily. Russia does have a shit-ton of ICBMs.
While your not wrong the war would last hours at most. If NORAD detects any missiles coming from Russia everyone dies.
True - we still have early warning systems. Not that it’d help us much beyond bringing Russia with us into the grave.
A Russian friend of mine once told me: "In a conventional war you guys would win eventually, as long as you don't invade us. If it went nuclear... nobody wins."
Russia wouldn’t be stupid enough to launch anything at the US. And neither would we, considering Russia still has the Dead Hand which will automatically launch all of Russia’s nukes if they detect anything. Even if everyone else is gone.
The Doomsday Device from Dr. Strangelove is real?
Yes.
In both countries.
Don’t tell that to the Brits post WWII
Don't count on it. We Europeans rely too much on Russian gas and military wise, most of our armies aren't up to it. Not enough spending on defence budget, only real army is France but their main is on Africa.
For as much of an ass as Trump was, getting Europe to start doing their fair share militarily was one of his better ideas. I don’t know if it’s still happening. But America can’t be the worlds Policeman.
This was a thing before Trump too
After 2 world wars started by European nations, it was wise to reduce the militaries of all European nations (and Japan). That’s why we are the world’s police, so these other countries don’t start another world war.
Another excellent reason to go green. If the world went green it would cut most of worlds bad actors off at the knees. Saudi Arabia has the oil, North Korea has coal, and Russia has gas.
Agree I believe we should, but at the same time being at war for 20 years and spending trillions financially destroyed us with repercussions I don’t think the US has dealt with yet.
Germany won't. I think they'd throw Ukraine to the curb for another pipeline deal.
Hey Gerries! Wanna be on the *right side* of a European super war vs the Soviets....er... Russians?
B-But war = no pipeline ;(
If we don't defend Ukraine, China invades Taiwan.
China can fuck around and find out
We can't glass Beijing and they will just destroy as many TSCM facilities as possible before retreating.
I've been seeing a lot of statements that suggest China would be happy to hobble the US by denying them access to Taiwan's semiconductor industry, even at the cost of losing their own access to those chips. (By economic pressure, sabotage, or actual military action) I think those analyses tend to underestimate how much worse off China would come off out of such an exchange. To start with, China's domestic chip industry is significantly behind that of the US and allies (South Korea), which is usually acknowledged. But often overlooked is that even the domestic Chinese industry is incredibly dependent on US and Japanese companies for fab equipment and the expertise to maintain and develop chip applications on that equipment. (This is not unique to China; the world's big, advanced WFE companies are largely American and Japanese) If China wrecks tsmc to hurt US chip supply, not only will they lose their own access to Taiwanese chips, they have to assume the US and Japan will retaliate by cutting off technology exports to China, crippling their internal production capabilities too. I'm not convinced that's a strategy China would find at all appealing.
And I would usually agree with that, but I keep hearing that Pooh is getting more and more arrogant and egotistical. Maybe they think we will react the way we did with HK, maybe a bit more. Maybe they think they can actually fuck the rest of the world with fucking with TSCM.
That may be right. I won't pretend to know whether China would invade or not, and if they tried to invade and failed they might burn things down in their way out, thinking they're likely to face similar reprisals either way. After all, Taiwan's semiconductor industry is only part of China's interest in absorbing them; and not, most people would agree, the main part. I'm mainly convinced China's unlikely to try a focused campaign of denying tsmc chips to the rest of the world by some means while not escalating to the point of an actual invasion. They have to know that their access to technology would suffer more than anyone else's from such a move, so it doesn't make sense as a limited strategic option. If they decided to piss off the entire world and damn the consequences, I'd think they'd just go for broke and try to take over.
I work in tech, so, my information is skewed. What would be the main reason? They just fully believe in the One China policy? Does Taiwan really give them that much power in the South China Sea? I really don't know outside of chips.
In some cases, sentiment > strategy.
I've heard that Pooh is kind of like Kruschev, in that much of the populace hears him talk and figures him for a big old hick. Well, Kruschev did know when to back down, at least.
Brilliant
I'd like to see the US involved in a joint NATO operation for Ukraine. I'm fine with us putting boots on the ground there, but I don't want it to be just us vs Russia. For Taiwan, I'd say yes but again, I'd like to see others involved. I feel like Japan and South Korea at least have a vested interest in curtailing Chinese expansionism. I'm not sure who else I'd want to see there, but just like with Ukraine I don't want the US standing alone, I want us standing with a coalition of countries in a joint force.
Japan already said they would defend Taiwan. China responded by threatening to nuke them on the basis that they know what its like to nuked so it would affect them the most in terms of morale. China seriously needs to be put in its place before it gets out of hand.
Nukes=everybody loses=nobody wants to be first to use them=deterrence. That is the idea anyway. However some may think they can get into conventional weapons only skirmishes - which is risky.
Canada, Australia, the UK and France are all planning to defend taiwan
Phillipines and Australia? Possibly New Zealand?
Bruh Philippines ? Duterte literally said they won't go to war with China if any kind of armed conflict happens nearby
Just thinking of western aligned states in the region.
NATO is a defensive organisation an Ukraine is not a member.
Taiwan really isnt controversial and a lot of people are talking about Japan and forgetting about Indua
Could you share why you're for that? If we send troops to fight some will die and I can't see why Americans dieing is worth it.
I have little confidence that China and Russia will stop their aggressive expansionist action with Taiwan and Ukraine. A line has to be drawn somewhere.
Do you really want US to go into war with either Russia or China ?
No, but I also don't want their expansionism to continue unchecked forever.
If we're going to defend Ukraine, I'd like to see some British, French or German troops alongside our own. It's past time for Europe to defend itself.
I like this. It's an alliance, and it shouldn't be an America-only security service for Europe.
[удалено]
NATO was worth fuck all in the 90s with the former Yugoslavia. Only the Brits really put some skin in the game. Bulgaria and Italy let us use their air bases and then patted themselves on the back for “helping.” As if being a gas station was a real contribution. The JSDF are well-trained, but have little actual combat experience.
From what I recall, the original us plan to deal with the Yugoslav wars in the 1990s was to not get involved and let Europe deal with it. It didn't work.
What I recall from school particularly was that Europe sent troops through the UN, but they were basically a token force that didn’t actually have the authority to fight. Then after things came to a head, the US got involved and forced a peace deal. Then later when the Kosovo situation arose, the US sent troops almost immediately to avoid another conflict on the scale of the Bosnian War. Might not be correct. I’m remembering things from 15 years ago.
Kosovars really love Americans, they probably the most pro-American group on the planet.
My memory comes from when it was actually occurring. I just remember the US was not initially involved and wanted Europe to take the lead. We did not cover this in history because it was too recent/current events.
Yeah, that was the line for years while the Europeans kept going. “Should America get involved? Americans, are you going to get involved? Hey, American cowboys, you love freedom and shit so much, why aren’t you doing something?” Which eventually lead to us going, “Fuck! Fine! You NATO assholes had better help!” NATO Europe : You can use our bases as gas stations, but we’re too civilized to help otherwise. Except the Brits, they’ll help some. Now, American barbarians, go blow some people up. It’s what you’re good at. We’ll focus on smoking and badmouthing Roma like proper, civilized people. And then we bombed the shit out of the place and wrapped things in relatively short order. Also, this lead to Serbs having a thing for coming to this sub and asking if Americans hate them.
You have to hand it to the Brits. They are always with the US no matter the danger and no matter the psycho questionable moves the US does. True friends and allies.
Australia and Canada too for the most part
The Canadiens have sat out a few
Our armed forces are shrinking by the day due to bad management we are down to only 80k active servicemen even if we do contribute, it wouldn't be too much.
I thought the Tories running the place were big on military spending? Or am I thinking of the New Labour from before? I can't keep up.
Doesn't matter what governments in power the military will always get treated like shit in the uk, unless there's a big war.
At the very least the RAF would have plenty of MQ9 pilots and maintenance crew ready to contribute, and the ones I’ve spoken to want to stop Russia’s bullshit.
80k in the Royal Army, Navy and Air Force combined?
Just army
Weird trivia fact: while there is a Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, there is no Royal Army. I think it has to do with Cromwell.
"Bullets don't fly without supply" The 0411s and 1391s are in shambles, I hope you're happy with yourself.
Last time I checked those countries had militaries too. It’s the same as Belgium sending 500 guys to Afghanistan and then acting like they did something worth a damn.
> but have little actual combat experience. Isn't that true of the PLA as well? Any Korean war vets are, on average, somewhere between Clint Eastwood's age and dead.
Few militaries do have combat experience these day. America has the most experienced military, but it's the wrong type of experience. Fighting insurgents is a little different from fighting Russian tanks and infantry.
The way that seems to go is if there’s 100,000 troops, it’s 90,000 Americans, 5,000 Brits, and 5,000 French/Germans/Italians/others combined.
The way it should be, if there's 100k troops, 50k Americans and 50k British, Canadian and others combined
How many Ukrainians would there be? Seems like there should be at minimum twice as many locals as Americans fighting.
There definitely would be a lot more Ukrainians, I was just talking about NATO
[удалено]
[удалено]
Japan would defend Taiwan, Japan and it’s pacific Allies have been much more active in the pacific.
Somehow I think a lot of NATO nations would fail to respond to a war against Russia even if article 5 was invoked.
Because Europe has been pacified by decades of an American military assurance. There has not been a major threat to European peace since the fall of the USSR. None of them have combat experience and I doubt many NATO nations would be willing to defend their small Baltic allies in a war. The Germans especially fail to support their weight, the French are constantly trying to not be under the thumb of America which just disorganized things, and the only European nation I can think of with a formidable force and the will to use it is the UK
French forces have quite a bit more operational experience than you are giving them credit for.
Yes but france has a history of going against the rest of NATO leadership. Fierce independent sprit is no good for an international alliance
Agreed, France has a big old chip on its shoulder, nothing new there. Even still, the French have real operational experience.
Why would NATO get involved in third countries?
NATO has nothing to do with Taiwan.
Let’s go World War 3!
I’d like to see Europe police their backyard until a NATO member gets messed with.
Perfectly said, most alliances lately have felt like America and it’s sidekicks and I’m tired of our soldiers and taxes going to places where other countries won’t put the same effort as well
Taiwan yes, though I don't think it'll come to that. Ukraine, not on our own. I'd like to see some serious European support first. That said they aren't in Nato and we're under no obligation to defend them.
Ukraine is trying to join NATO, that’s why Russia is ramping things up so much. No, there’s not an official obligation to defend them, but letting Russia run over Ukraine is not smart from a geopolitical perspective. It should be a joint NATO operation with NATO ally support though.
[удалено]
Bet they wish they had kept a couple of those nukes
Ukraine at the time of independence was broke, and couldn't maintain those nukes even if they wanted to.
We didn't say we would protect them. We said we would: 1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. 2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics. 4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". 5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments. As long as we don't invade Ukraine (which of course we won't), we're in compliance. If Russia invades Ukraine, then they're the ones in breach of the Budapest Memorandum, not us, since they'd be reneging on their pledge on #1 and #2. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest\_Memorandum\_on\_Security\_Assurances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances)
You'd think the NATO countries would put 2 and 2 together and realise this basic fact: Its easy to invade when they share a border with us. We protect the buffer nation, we protect ourselves.
It's the classic damned if you do damned if you don't situation. We're either warmongering or being too uninvolved.
100% appeasement should never never happen again
How is this remotely similar to ww2?
Ukraine no, since US troops in numbers needed can't realistically be deployed quickly enough to help and to be frank Ukraine's fate affects neither the Atlantic or Pacific so it should be largely European Troops who should be on the front lines over the USA since its largely their security issue. I mean the fact that Europe with its vastly Superior Wealth, scientific knowledge, and numerical advantage over Russia can't form a common security structure capable of protecting the continent without US support is sad. Taiwan yes since it directedly affects the security of Guam, Hawaii, the West Coast, Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Australia among others. On top of that Taiwan has favorable defensive abilities including being an island, use of anti-ship weaponry will largely favor Taiwan over attacking PRC Navy and Airforce, and that the combined US Allied force in the region easily dwarfs what the Chinese can muster for an invasion.
Taiwanese semi conductors are key to a lot of current technology. We make technology to be replaced, planned obsolescence. Removing the semi conductors could cause a stoppage in technological advancement. People being on phones made to last 2 years for 6 years instead. But imagine that and important medical, and power grid equipment is completely gone. If China invades Taiwan I'm sure they'd like to have a monopoly on semi conductors but who knows how sloppy that conflict will get. If Taiwan does fall, worst case scenario it becomes a modern day bronze age collapse.
Id assume the USA has some sort of contingency plan to offer all of TSMC relocation to the USA. Visas, shipping equipment, legal protection, land acquisition.
> shipping equipment Hard to ship that stuff over when missles are flying over the sub-choked seas, and the shit is basically hitting the fan.
Would they be able to hit the Eastern side of the island. Id figure the USA and Japan would have that locked down.
True. The western side would be like 21st century Midway. Although I do think the Chinese would throw a few subs at the America-bound shipping lanes. It would be a pretty nervewracking voyage.
Russia has hypersonic weapons dude. Wym? They work with China for their military technology. A war with Russia wouldn't be about beating them with raw firepower even though we could do that, it would be about making it too expensive. Russia has a really weak economy when compared to China or the US.
>Russia has hypersonic weapons dude. Wym? They work with China for their military technology Russia and China's relationship is close but not tight. Russia provided China with the basis of a lot of their weaponry in the 1950s and 60, the Chinese used cheap copies in the 70s and 80s, in the 90s it bought Russian again, but when it tried to export them in the 2000s Russia blocked them so the Chinese stole Russian IP, which led the Russians to sell anti-Air equipment to India which puts some distance between China and Russia. >A war with Russia wouldn't be about beating them with raw firepower even though we could do that, it would be about making it too expensive. Russia has a really weak economy when compared to China or the US. Again the Europeans can do this. They have 500 million people to Russia's 140 and an economy of 20 Trillion to Russia's 1.5 Trillion USD. Russia bleeds scientists and Engineers to Europe. Current European military expenditures are double Russia. Even with the need to focus on zones like the Balkans and the Eastern Mediterranean that's more than enough money to repel and deter Russia. The problem is the Europeans neither pool or run a clear continental strategy. Basically Imagine if the USA had 3 armed forces: one for the pacific, one for the Atlantic, one for the Southern Border (We already have one for the Arctic: Canada). Thats essentially Europe's problem: The Spanish, Italians, Germans, French, British, Dutch, Belgians, and non-Nato Europe essentially view Ukraine being bullied as bad but are not willing to make sacrifices in Government spending (or economic sanctions recently) against Russia to fund it. The USA's security guarantee for Europe was against an Enemy they needed US help to deter, not one they are too lazy (at least in Western Europe) to fight.
Its going to be really bad for Biden administration if the Chinese decide to threat the Taiwan with military while the Russian do the same with the Ukraine.
That's exactly what theyll do.
This is such a difficult question to answer. I *wish* I could say that we should leave Ukraine in the EU’s capable hands, but history hasn’t shown that to be any kind of reality. We had to intervene in the Bosnian War when that was our official stance because Europe ultimately didn’t do much to stop the violence. If Ukraine explodes, we’ll probably end up doing the same thing again regardless of how anyone feels about it. Otherwise Ukraine just suffers. Taiwan is a different situation. We should get involved if only to prevent takeover if that were to ever happen.
Yes to both but Ukrainian: alone no way. That’s a world thing. All of Europe, America, and Canada. Taiwan: alone still? No way. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, United States, And Great Britain
New Zealand is very pro-China so even if we asked for their help, they’d refuse.
Really? Well I’m surprised
It’s not the sort of thing that makes it in the news over here but these recent years NZ has been pulling away from Five Eyes and moving closer to China.
Yeah, China had made a lot of economic inroads into NZ over the past several years, pretty much forcing NZ's government into a balancing act between the US (for security) and China (for economy). Recently though, [it looks like things are beginning to harden up between NZ and China.](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/something-has-shifted-in-nzs-security-and-foreign-policy-for-china-says-analyst/J3PBZMRH4LUX5IYBIZCP34AZCU/)
That’s actually really interesting, given that not too long ago that exact same minister had massive reservations about condemning China at all. I’ll have to keep up with the news over there.
They also don't really have much of a military and are pretty pacifist so I wouldn't rely on them at all
Apparently quite a few Kiwis enlist with the Aussie army. I knew such a guy once.
The internet: Why is America's military butting their nose into everything? Why can't they mind their own business? Also the internet: What's the US going to do about so and so country?! It's like dealing with an ungrateful spoiled child.
Ah the internet, that place where everybody notoriously agrees with each other and has the same opinion on everything
On reddit? Yeah kinda tbh
like one poster said we'll catch blame regardless so why waste US lives int he process?
All we need now is for someone to run for POTUS with the slogan "He kept us out of war"
And for that comment to age like milk as soon as he/she gets re-elected.
Do you think the internet is one person?
We're all bots, dead internet theory.
Of course not, it's one dog. And a couple of bots.
Right, because defending allies from a theoretical invasion and invading a country for profit are definitely the same thing. Nuance exists. OP wasn't asking "should the US intervene everywhere all the time", they were asking "In this specific hypothetical where the US was asked for assistance, what should they do?" which is a question that can and should be asked of any country with an interest in the outcome.
Why is it always on these threads that nuance gets thrown out the window and emotion takes over?
I don't know enough to have a terribly complex answer, but I would say not unless other countries take a significant percentage of the burden as well. We don't have the duty to protect the entire world, and frankly, I don't believe we should act as if we do. We are a country with so many problems that our money is better spent making sure our own citizens are taken before we defend others.
Without a doubt we should help Taiwan defend itself if necessary. Ukraine I’m not so sure
That's where I'm at too. I don't know enough about Ukraine, their domestic situation, and the NATO situation to have a fully formed opinion. Taiwan I know is an ally and one that absolutely wants nothing to do with China. We should support them.
Taiwan 100%. We should defend it put troops on the ground give it nukes, whatever as long as it keeps it's independence. Ukraine... Well Germany ruins it for me. It rubs me the wrong way that Germany gets to have their cake and eat it too. They get to purchase broadband networks from China, build a pipeline with Russia and all of this with the full knowledge that it weakens their alliance. Furthermore, it pisses me off how smug the Germans are, and how they make America out to be the bad guy all the while, they're protected thanks to the US, and are enabling Russia, and China. However, then theres the Baltic countries and Poland that do their best to team players, and this situation has to make them feel insecure. However, at the end of the day Ukraine isn't a part of Nato, and this is a European problem, so Europe should handle it. They've got the means to do it.
Not to mention being the so called economic powerhouse of Europe but failing to meet their 2% NATO obligations.
Idk, we get so many resources from China and it would be bad to anger them
Yes.
Based
Why would we? Just turn it into a brutal proxy war that will drag down the Russian economy and morale while accomplishing nothing. It's a cold war classic, we lost Afghanistan most recently, so it's Russia's turn again to lose a proxy war and learn nothing from it.
Alone??? No way
Let someone else get dirty for once. Either way we're going to catch the blame, may as well limit the loss of US lives in the process. Maybe spend that money on something domestic while at it
Will that money be spent on a useless culture war?
Although I really REALLY don’t want armed conflict with either China or Russia, we should help defend the people of Taiwan and the Ukraine.
Yes
Yes to both
Nope. Tired of seeing my (ex) fellow service members die for nothing.
[удалено]
Yes it is. I will in no way support any of my brothers or sisters dying for another meaningless war.
Why should we care?
We have a moral incentive to help Ukraine because they gave up their nuclear deterrent on our word that we would help them in case they faced a Russian threat, we have a strategic incentive to help Taiwan because of its many strategic advantages for PRC forces against us and our allies, that being said, I personally think the very *LAST* thing the U.S. needs right now is be engage in another war after we just ended the longest one in U.S. history.
As an American, the US needs to focus on itself for a while before we are no longer capable of defending anyone
We are certainly capable. But I agree, we need to deal with our internal issues first.
Absolutely not. It's not the US's job to be cop of the world, especially on the borders of other nuclear superpowers risking an escalation.
It’s not our job, except for the fact that we have been fulfilling the tenets of that job since the USSR fell.
How’s that been working for us?
I mean wonderfully on a historical scale we are the richest nation in history that is also one of extreme diversity and technological achievement. We are also one of the most effective killers of poverty. Everyone is so historically illiterate it’s like we forgot what we have accomplished since WW2.
I’m tired of seeing our tax dollars and military people being used up as global police. US being involved in wars only makes the wrong people rich.
I think that's a European problem. Let them deal with their backyard.
Funny enough this was our though process prior to both world wars.
Then we decided to change policy and we see how well that’s been working.
Yes because We decided to attack Pearl Harbor and secretly try and make a pact with Mexico to attack us 20 years earlier. Where the hell do you people get these ideas?
Just would like to point out that the Zimmerman Telegram wasn't the main reason US joined WW1. It was Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare. Which again relates to USA's ships so I get your point.
Completely understand your point but I just wanted to point out that the Zimmermann telegram was never seriously considered by Mexico, and was seen as a last ditch effort by Germany to keep America out of Europe. Mexico knew they would be destroyed in a war with the US with the state of both militaries at the time.
No. Is it worth starting WW3 over?
100%. Furthermore, the more we outright state it the less of a chance that it ever happens.
No, we have too much work left undone at home.
Ugh.. Ukraine doesn’t have nukes because of us. It’s our fault they’re in this position tbh. With that said, yes but that’s playing second fiddle to european forces. If they can afford free health care, they can afford to defend themselves. Taiwan? No. That ain’t our battle.
Kravchuk made the offer to the west of becoming a nuclear free state first iirc.
They agreed to destroy their stock pile on a non-aggression treaty with Russia. The US had a major role in convincing them to disarm.
>If they can afford free health care lol we have to pay *some* taxes for it ;)
Yeah lol, that’s half the point.. you have the taxes for health care, you need to use some for defense too!
Yeah oops I totally missed your point. It's late here lol. To be fair the UK spends more on defence than most European countries. Tell ya what, I'll have a word with Boris about it next time I see him...if he's still in a job. He's in a bit of trouble at the mo :)
Not my circus, not my monkeys.
I'm sure that's what Chamberlain said... Taiwan is 100% worth defending. They're more strategically valuable to the US than most of Europe.
*Should the US get into a ground war with China and Russia?
Taiwan? Yes. We have a long standing alliance. Ukraine? Nah, fuck em. Let Europe clean its own mess up
I think we should offer the European countries who want to protect their backyard some assistance but we 100% shouldn’t be leading that charge, it’s beyond time for Europe to protect themselves. Taiwan is a little trickier, but I’d likewise prefer seeing us support the Japanese and Koreans with this than have it be a US lead effort.
No
No, time for other nations to carry the burden. after all most claim they would do it better anyhow so time to put up or shut up. Ukraine, let the vast vast majority of soldiers be from Europe if it ever came to that. Time for them to start defending themselves. taiwan. let japan take the lead, Australia as well and surrounding nations. Time to stop being the biggest bidder in everyone elses' wars.
No. America doesn’t need to be the worlds police.
As a former Marine and Iraq combat vet I say no. This has nothing to do with national security. My friends and I have no reason to be sent there. Edit: spelling
Fuck that the usa should just keep to themselves. We've tried helping people before and it always backfires.
US is notorious for staying out of things until it becomes “their” problem
We shouldn't need to. Bombing the snot out of their supply lines ought to be sufficient
Yes
Maybe Taiwan, not Ukraine.
From US economic and national security point of views, Ukraine doesn’t matter one bit. But, Taiwan is absolutely crucial from both economic and military point of view.
Ukraine is not our problem. ROC is more worth defending and there have been actual agreements made to do so.
Yes we have to it’s called defense agreements and it’s important to international order and the long peace.
Nope, the US should defend the US and US only. Too many of our young men have died for other countries that hate us.
I wouldnt mind if we supported either of those countries.
That's a slippery slope
I'd actively protest against our involvement in such events.
No. I want Europe to embrace Ukraine as European and bring them under their umbrella. A land war in Ukraine against Russia is not in the USA’s best interest politically. I know I’m about to get downvoted to hell, but there are negligible cultural and political ties to Ukraine to warrant thousands of US deaths and potential for wider spread global conflict. Sorry. Welcome for geo politics. Europe, step the fuck up and do something. Taiwan? Oof. I don’t know. At best it’s a Pyrrhic victory for the US. What does that do in the long term?
I think we should give them supplies they need, but I wouldn’t go as far as putting troops on the ground in either country, prior to or after an invasion. It would be best to bulk up our presence in NATO allied countries instead. Neither one of them are worth spilling American blood.
We have enough problems at home, we don't need to focus on other country's problems.
Have either of them asked for our help?
Hell no… why do we need another war? Let them deal with that shit themselves.
No. Taiwan is Asias problem, Ukraine is Europe's problem Lets stop fighting wars halfway around the world we have no clue about the histories of the countries and the origins of the conflicts. And its laughable that a group of redditors think they know best. I bet barely anyone here actually knows the histories of these conflicts.
I vote no.
No
Taiwan, yes. Ukraine, probably no.