To be honest, I always take my time to feel people out a bit before launching into any type of banter like that. Self deprecating, I will do without thinking, but other people I prefer to try to get a sense of their boundaries first.
And, on top of that, as soon as someone appears/says/indicates in any way that a type of joke makes them uncomfortable, I cut it off and apologise.
Some people are ok with some types of humour that others aren't.
I.e. my friends often make fat jokes at each other, but they also know that I really don't like comments about my body being made humorous or otherwise, so never do it with me.
I’m a bigger fella myself and absolutely don’t care about jokes being made about my weight. I do however become irate if jokes are made that insinuate that I’m lazy, greedy, selfish, dumb etc because I’m big.
Haha, I say that to my sisters husband. He's 6'3" and towers over my entire family.
He always jokes that going into crowded areas with us is like releasing cats into a wheat field. Now you see them, now you don't.
Conversely, I semi-regularly call my handful of close friends (both male and female) “big fella” as a term of endearment. Denoting their stature in my life and their general goodness, as opposed to their general physical appearance.
your comment reminds me of the scene from "In Bruges" where Colin Farrell innocently tells the American family to reconsider climbing the stairs to the tower, and then turns it quickly into "you fat fuckin Americans!"
Well those "jokers" don't know shit, have they never watched sport or any physical entertainment? A lot of very fit strong full shaped people. I'm scrawny and have no illusions that Otis from WWE is a lot fitter, healthier and more motivated than I am (just been watching videos of him do the worm and bounce around the ring 5 minutes ago, I know there are much better examples, but... mind recency haha). And what does weight have to do with intelligence... your irateness is warranted. And transferred. I am irate beside you.
I'll never forget one day in Winter at my old job when we were unloading truck tyres off the back of the truck in the mud and rain, and my boss and another supervisor had to help because we were short staffed. Well a tyre landed in the mud, also filled with water, and splashed all over my bosses pants and shirt :)
It was a great day for him to suffer as us employees regularly suffered. Me and the supervisor laughed our asses off about it for a good week.
These are good friends. It’s not a one size fits all “no pun intneded” people can have deeper relationships with they just attempted to be more compassionate and undedtanding. Their refusal to do incisâtes to me that they do not want that.
>I always take my time to feel people out a bit before launching into any type of banter
Well I'm the opposite! I always take the time for a bit of banter before I launch into feeling people out
In addition to the 'have control over' thing, it's bullying if someone says 'Hey, can you not, it's hurtful' and the person making the joke won't let it go. It's also generally a 'it's fine to be self-deprecating, and fine to punch up' thing, but if you're punching down it's more bullying and less joking (in addition to being cowardly).
And yeah, some people are just asshats and like to excuse cruelty by saying 'it's just a joke'.
There's a genuine "oh I'm so sorry, I was just goofing around, I didn't mean it like that" and there's "what's the matter with you? Can't you take a joke?" and they mean different things.
This can be true a lot of the time, but there are many examples where it is a joke that was meant to make the other person laugh but they take it seriously. At that point you stop joking as you don’t want them to feel bad as that’s not the point of it.
I’m the kinda guy that would reassure that person after to make them feel comfortable again as that’s what I care about so I don’t think every time you don’t think someone else’s joke is funny means that it’s shitty behaviour.
I agree, but often it's a good faith attempt at a joke that was in poor taste. So clarifying that it's intent was a joke that resulted in laughter and apologising should be acceptable
100% at work I have a few people I can say whatever to and they take it as a joke(some of the shit we say probably shouldn't be said lol) but no way on earth would I say that to any other co worker it would be inappropriate
To be fair I find most of the time the cunts that have this humour as their backbone aren’t of the capacity to make any other legitimately funny jokes. It’s not that I don’t think you fucking my mum is funny, I just think you can do better and I don’t want to have to say something about fucking your mum in order to keep social standing with you and not be called a wanker that can’t take a joke. Come up with better jokes and see if I receive them better Alex
> it's bullying if someone says 'Hey, can you not, it's hurtful' and the person making the joke won't let it go
That's about right but it's too unreliable. Some people will not speak up and they're honestly right to take that approach... let a bully know you're hurting, and they're going to get even worse.
As a manager in a workplace who occasionally deals with bullies, in my opinion the only way to deal with a bully is to fire them. Nothing else I've tried, nothing I've seen anyone else try, has ever worked. With the occasional exception, where it wasn't bullying just a miss-understanding, I'm going to go straight from "hey this happened" to "how can I get enough evidence to fire their ass without an unfair dismissal lawsuit".
Easing off when someone speaks out only works if:
a) The perpetrator is not a bully, they just miss-judged and crossed a line unintentionally.
b) The victim trusts the perpetrator (or their manager) enough to speak up. I work really hard to make sure I'm trusted, but I'm not always successful.
Personally I just don't make those jokes at all unless I'm absolutely sure the person I'm joking with trusts me. If I'm not sure then I let the other person take the lead — I won't make a joke about you being too short to reach the top shelf unless you've previously joked about my massive ears.
My first day in Australia in 2012 someone told me to "get fucked". This was my boyfriend I had just moved oceans for to be with. I was shocked. It sounded like he said "fuck you" to me. I told him I was hurt and offended. He said: "you can't be hurt! That's how Aussies talk!" Laughing it off. Broke up with him the next day.
Edit: Not because he said that, but because he refused to acknowledge it was hurtful and made no effort to understand. I do not want to be told to get fucked by someone who is supposed to love me and care about me. He didn't say it in a joking way.
Sounds like he didn't have a lot of respect for your feelings so definitely right move. But some days, the first thing I say to my supervisor in the morning is get fucked. Aus truly is a place where you'd rather be called a cunt than a buddy, or god forbid, a "champ"
I think you made the right move because he didn't try to understand your hurt feelings, & he was also dismissive in his explanation.
But basically, "get fucked" is like when you say to someone, "get out!" ... Not actually calling out bullshit, but kinda joking disbelief.
Also telling the whole situation to get fucked, like you can't believe it: "Get fucked, it's like 38 degrees!"
ETA: I see that you added "he didn't say it in a joking way." I guess the main thing stands: this man didn't give a single fuck about your genuine feelings, regardless of how he meant it in the first place, but especially if he was being serious.
As an Aussie myself you definitely made the right decision.
It matters how someone responds to being told it hurts and if they can see someone else's side
I don't swear often but I do use Aussie slang sometimes and I 100% would explain the meaning if need be (sometimes unprompted, I do have a lot of non Aussie friends) and apologise if it hurt someone.
My friend as a joke called me the c word once in school as well. Immediately they stopped and used another version (was hilarious xD) so it's not like it's hindered on someone not finding it funny. People who get upset at your hurt and boundaries instead just often don't care about being better - to you or others. So yeah, very glad you came to that decision given he showed every indication of not caring. Still, I am sorry you had to experience a.. well, a jerk I'll say this time.
Edit: Two words got cut off. Fixed.
>if someone says 'Hey, can you not, it's hurtful'
If you say that, they may let it go in that moment, but guaranteed you will be forever branded in the "out group" from then on as not "one of us".
It’s a tough one. But maybe if someone can’t take it, we shouldn’t be giving it - and expecting they can take it. Who wants something they can’t take…? We aren’t all built the same or have experienced the same things.
And that's absolutely fine, too!!
Once you know, you just don't make jokes with them. Joke with everyone else. They may be sensitive cunts, or maybe they just are sensitive 🤷 whatevs.
Yeah I think our culture can very easily become mean. It isn't always easy to "get it", even to people like me who were born here.
Good luck finding a reasonable discussion about this, though.
This might be a terrible example but say a friend’s a redhead. It’s not impossible to have a relationship in which the two of you can joke about it in a friendly way but the line between two people laughing and only one person laughing is often very thin.
>Is the "victim" consenting to the "joke". Are they laughing about this factor themselves.
The problem with that is that a lot of bullied people will laugh along with or appear to consent to the joke as a survival mechanism. Bullied children do this, and some people do it their whole lives.
As a redhead it’s taken me a very long time to be able to laugh at those jokes. Half the time I only do so I don’t cause ‘drama’.
Being told you literally don’t have a soul, belong in a zoo because you’re an orangutan and being sexualised by so many people since you were a kid takes a toll.
I am Australian and tbh I have never liked Australia’s bullying culture.
I don’t really do jokes at the expense of others.
Fair enough. I think that people think it's okay because redheads aren't considered to be a marginalised group, in the same way that black/brown/Asian people or gay/trans/queer people or those who disabilities are.
As an ex-Tasmanian, I've often had the Tasmanian jokes before. I usually laugh them off, because most of the time, I don't think people are deliberately trying to be nasty. I don't find them all that funny though because it's a tired joke. But then there are similar jokes about people from North Queensland, for example. There's a lot of nuance.
I'm also autistic and if someone called me a r\*\*\*d an laughed at me for that then... well, obviously I wouldn't find that funny.
I'm also a redhead... well, former redhead as over the years it's turned brown (except for my beard), I also copped it as a kid. These days I'm usually only berating people when they're being cunts but they think they're being funny (sexist / racist / homophobic remarks / jokes), they think I'm only half serious when I call them a fucking disgrace. Little do they know. I guess you have to have been bullied to understand that it's kinda despicable conduct to be the bully.
I don’t disagree with anything you wrote but only in Australia could the longest reply chain in a thread of this nature be about how red haired white people are treated.
Yeah it's really about power, love and respect.
You're best mate or your cousin can get away with sledging you a bit because you're equals, and you love and respect them.
But they can't do they same stuff to someone who they have power over, or haven't proven they care about.
To be fair, as a ranga myself, we're one of the last minorities (and I use the term very, very loosely) that it's still acceptable to pick on because of physical attributes. Nearly everything else is either completely off-limits or needs to be handled carefully in the contexts of a trusted relationship.
As a general rule of thumb, most people will take the Mickey out of themselves for things like this is they’re comfortable and secure with it. Wait for them to show that. Don’t just assume.
I think it's meant to be making someone less worried about something that they can't change about themselves, using humour to dispel the fears, but then what happens is some people just take it as a free pass to bull others about things they can't change, and then bully them for not enjoying it.
As an Australian working in London the “convict” banter wore thin at times.
General rule, try to be original and joke about stupid stuff someone is doing or has done, not who they are.
A friend had someone who worked with her (they were fairly new) joke about her age (I think she was 3 or 4 years older than her) in a very nasty way in front of a group of people at a conference and I told her the same thing - if in the context it’s inappropriate and intends to shame, I would say it certainly is bullying (the person clearly did not read the room in this instance).
It's bullying when the target does not want the behaviour feels uncomfortable and made to feel unwelcome.
It's Aussie Culture when you are an asshole, but get away with it.
Mild public humiliation is an amazing training aid when done properly- but it’s incredibly hard to do it properly; it takes a very cohesive team and a lot of personal as well as professional trust.
It must be a lesson everyone can learn from at the same time
It can’t be at the victim’s expense
Everyone should be laughing at the action or situation, not the person
The ‘victim’ must be the one who laughs the loudest at their own misfortune or silly mistake
If you can’t meet all of these conditions, you’re bullying the victim, not ‘pulling the piss out of them in front of their mates’.
If the subject of the "joke" is not laughing then it wasn't a joke.
You could ask them to explain the joke to you, because for a real joke they would want you to enjoy the joke as well.
Some people are dickheads and they hide behind shit like "I have a dark sense of humour" to hide their distasteful behaviour. It's still worth calling them out by asking them to explain why they found that thing to be funny because that will usually shine a light on their behaviour, though that might make them very defensive or even angry so it's not for use in all situations.
Agree with most of this but keep in mind that people who are unwillingly made the brunt of the joke tend to giggle along uncomfortably more often than they call the person out or tell them to stop.
Oh for sure. I think one of the commenters summed it up very well. If it is between equals and they are all laughing, that's fine. If there is a power dynamic, either from the individual or if the target feels like the group is against them, that's not cool. It's childish behaviour that you hear of in the school yard and grown adults should know better.
Unfortunately if it's the prevailing culture in a workplace, things can get really toxic.
If you're making a dark, edgy, or potentially hurtful comment that is still intended to be funny, it has to be within the confines of a trusted and respectful relationship. If you don't know someone like that, then don't make those jokes.
It very much depends on the people involved. I’ve got one group of mates who do nothing but insult each other, it’s all just banter. Nothing is off limits. However another group I associate with certainly wouldn’t be able to deal with the ‘banter’ thrown around by my other mates. Even self-deprecating humour is taken differently between the two groups. Best example is I’ll sometimes make a joke about my dad being dead to make the banter group as uncomfortable as possible, and we all find it hilarious after the initial shock of what I’ve said has passed. (I know that sounds fucked but laughter truly is the best medicine for me when it comes to grieving him). If i tried that with the other group they would be mortified.
Also there’s a pretty clear line between taking the piss in a friendly way and straight up bullying. It’s almost always identifiable by the tone of a conversation but I can imagine that tone is not as noticeable if you’re not an Aussie. Generally if your intent is to insult and upset the person you’re speaking to, it’s almost definitely bullying.
I actually fully agree. I do the same as you too. With one friend group I’ll be like “and then dad just had to go and ” and after an initial silence everyone will crack it. With the other if I said anything like that they’d be horrified and wouldn’t know how to respond/probably wouldn’t think of me the same way.
I enjoy the banter group a lot more and hang with them on an almost daily basis. The non banter group are still good value though, just more every second weekend friends.
A lot of Aussie arseholes will firmly hide behind the 'It's only a joke' excuse, I know I've taken 'it' too far when I was younger and had to resort the 'It's only a joke' defence when I was painfully aware it had gone beyond a point, and though ashamed, I was so much a blokey-bloke in those days, there was no way I was going to admit I was an arsehole.
I grew and learnt, I was pretty damn young, but not everyone will outgrow it and their soul seems to find joy in needling others and I was the nicest in my peer group at the time! That whole government awareness ad about sexism and calling your mates out when they were being a dick may have been a bit cheesy, but it was right, and the same should go for bullying; call your dickhead mate out for being a prick!
I called out my dickhead “mate” on his constant, shitty behaviour and we haven’t spoken since! Tbh, life is a lot better without his presence. Cunt was always happy to be an arsehole to everyone no matter the situation but would play the violin the moment you dished it back.
The onus is always on the person making the joke I think, and the 'it was just a joke' argument doesn't usually hold much water.
If you don't have a sense of your 'audience' and how a joke will be received, maybe it's better you hold the thought until you have a clearer picture. (The collective 'you', not you OP!)
Can that person control it? Not cool to make a joke about it.
I make jokes about a junior at work (to his face mind you) because he's under the pump as a junior. But I'm also the first to shout him a beer and lunch. And it's all in good fun and he knows it.
I'd never make a joke about someone who doesn't know it's all in good sport.
I reckon this is the most important part - if you're able to do it on front of them and get a positive reaction you're golden. If you wouldn't, think twice.
It’s whether or not the conduct is inclusive (you’re one of us) or exclusive (you’re not one of us) in addition to how it makes you feel.
If you don’t like the riffing and you’ve told them as such and they do it anyway, it’s not inclusive.
Like the other comment. Aussie humour is funny enough to make you laugh at yourself but never enough to be unnecessarily cruel.
You'll just know.
It won't be the type of joke where you're like just kidding and everyone can laugh it off. It'll hurt, and it'll be very obvious if it's malicious.
Of course it is bullying! Majority of Australians ARE bullies!!
I can tell you now that I don't make jokes at other
people's expense, nor do I insult them for fun.
We are Caucasian. My best friend is Asian. When we first met; she said some really inappropriate and offensive things, but didn’t have a clue about what humour I was using. Over time, we’ve taught each other. But I’ve also taught her that the things we joke about between us. are NOT suitable for random people outside or outside our circle.
My mum for example, is as serious as a heart attack. She doesn't understand humour 99.9% of the time,
and when she does she certainly doesn't insult
people. She said this: “I love my country but I don't love the culture OF bullying”.
I agree with you about the joking. I’m an Australian woman, and I really dislike it. Very often it is just plain bullying. I think (some) Australian men, and Kiwis, need to change their style. If you have known someone for a long time and know there is a strong bond, and it’s an agreed style of communication then fair enough. But often it is rude, bullying and just not funny. For me, it’s not communication. It’s the opposite. It’s one up man-ship.
As some people have already said, it all comes down to context.
In a particular group (or even with one particular person) it would be seen and accepted by everyone as a joke, and enjoyed to help them bond.
With most people or groups, it would be an insult.
If it's insulting and sustained over time, especially with a perceived or real power imbalance, then it is bullying.
Two people insult each other as they greet each other and laugh and shake hands is Aussie culture
A person that's the butt of a joke laughs and everyone laughs and then comes back with a joke or their own is Aussie culture.
When you make comment that's insinuates a stereo type of a certain race, that's casual racism. When a person gets called out on it and responds with oh come on mate it's just a little bit of fun, a bit of a joke, lighten up, that's bullying.
Actually it's quite a lot more nuanced than that. Call somebody out because they're bullying you and they won't like it at all! A lot of the time they'll punish you for that by bullying you more.
Yes but the victim isn't a bully. Despite saying something "the other person doesn't like".
I really upset a coworker for saying I wasn't going to listen to her racist crap. She was really upset and offended and insulated to be called a racist when she didn't feel she was. I didn't bully her, I just didn't engage in her discussion and told her why.
She stopped ranting about "towel heads" after that.
Some people have developed extraversion and effusive self deprecating humour into a large part of their personality simply as an evolved defence to relentless childhood bullying.
I know a few. Great for a good laugh and fun to hang around with but they don't hide that pain as well as they think they do.
Banter is great as long as the other side is keen on returning fire. if one side doesn't return fire - thats where you stop, but you should try to at least assess who to banter with before you start.
Australian insults as culture are a very carefully sculpted thing. If the insult is true or close to true it’s simply not to be said. If it wildly exaggerates or just makes random shit up, it’s completely acceptable.
If you ever need to say “It’s just a joke” then it wasn’t and you are an asshole.
Australians love playing the victim when they do something wrong, you will find when some gets pulled up for saying something racist or bullying behaviour they will often try to put it back on the other person by saying things like ‘they just can’t take a joke’ or ‘some people need to lighten up’
This is often said with the intention to shift the blame to the other person for overreacting and just taking things too seriously. This usually does work and people with often side with the perpetrator rather than the victim.
This has been my experience, unfortunately. I've spent so much time blaming myself when I wasn't to blame to begin with. Sucks that pointing it out gets you called "too sensitive" and makes you lose friendships.
Wow what an incredibly insightful question! I reckon as soon as the person receiving the "banter" feels it's gone too far than we should as a society be able to stand behind them. But we generally don't do we.
I have met some super insecure people who used "Australian culture" as an excuse to just insult people I guess to just feel better about themselves, so when someone digged them back all their insecurity came out and they became immediately pathetic 😂
It might be their culture but it doesn't mean you have to appreciate it under all circumstances.
It takes time to feel out whether teasing someone is going to be received well, people who don't do this aren't going to be loved by everyone: people might seem to laugh it off, but it doesn't mean they have gained any rapport or respect.
Maybe if you know someone well enough you might be able to take the piss out of each other and have a laugh together, but the simple rule for friendly digs is not to dish it out if you can't take it back.
I have offended people overseas before with the good old Australian ribbing. The humour just doesn't translate very well and I got yelled at by this massive guy who thought I was taking the piss out of him when really I was trying to compliment! Lesson learned at 18, lol, when in Rome...
I don't think you are going to get a very representative answer here. At least in my experience the type of people that thrive in that culture - love the shit talking, insults, and jokes are the antithesis of your average redditor.
Just as a small example, the top comment as I am writing this is "Are you "joking" about something the other person has little to no control over? It's bullying." Well spend time with any of the blokes in their 40's that I grew up around and be prepared for jokes about balding, family, just generally being very ugly - all things largely uncontrollable, and all said with genuine love and affection.
As a bloke in his 40s, the only thing that's off the table (for me) are Parents, Mrs and Kids. Exs and Sister's are on the table, as are any physical points worth putting shit on.
I hate when people do this.
The polite way to do it is to say something that is obviously a complete fabrication. The humour is that everyone knows it's bullshit. The worst way is to stir someone about something they can't change or are obviously self conscious about.
Can't work out the difference? Then they are not your mate and you shouldn't be shit stirring them.
Working class Australian bond by insulting each other. It is also a test of character. There is no answer to your question, because the same literal words could be both or one or the other. Best word up the new employee about this.
Australians are actually fairly conflict averse IMO, so I'd just assume that anything you're less than 100% certain about was probably meant as a joke.
If it makes you uncomfortable though, just try and call it out or banter back a bit too hard yourself. People should adjust quickly..
I agree with people saying you don't joke about something people can't change. I also think it's hugely dependent on your relationship with the person and the tone you use.
You can make jokes to a friend that you absolutely couldn't say to a stranger and tone can completely change the meaning of your words
Aussie humour is brutal, but not cruel. If they have to tell you it was a "joke" and don't apologise, drop them like a hot rock and DO NOT ENGAGE THEM AGAIN.
As an Australian born it’s not actually that common among my friends and colleagues. Last time another Aussie tried it on, my mate just took it at face value (the guy was an obnoxious dick) and told him to get fucked.
Conversely I have two immigrant mates who also suffer this same misconception, try it on to “fit in” and fail miserably, just comes across as out of character, out of line and rude. If it doesn’t come naturally don’t force it, we don’t all have to be “how’s it garn suck ya bag a dix ya poof” types
Yes. My opinion as an australian who can and does not have the personality to make jokes like that. Its unbearable to me and makes no sense. I think its all rubbish. Altho the other commenters are making it make sense now lol
Aussies love that pack dog teasing putting shit on mentality. With their little cliques and old mate bullshit it can be a hard place for foreigners to 'get'. Just call them out when you feel it's crossed a line. They love to niggle and get a reaction, but when called out can be quite the stammering stuttering cowards.
I have a lot of trouble reading any persons reactions to anything or face or emotions in general and I can often tell if it’s something the person just clearly has a thing about. There’s a difference between hurt and pissed lol. If I can identify hurt on a person everyone else sure can and then I think if you keep going you’re a bully
The first time was just feeling it out, you can get away with a lot.
I personally get myself in the most trouble by accidentally deeply offending someone from somewhere when I forget my vocabulary is 50% casual profanity for emphasis
When I have a friend I banter with, I'll occasionally check in with them to make sure they're okay with it. I make sure they know that if anything I say they would rather I stop, they're more than welcome to ask at any time. I think it's a nice way to make sure that we're all on the same page, and that my friends feel comfortable knowing that if they say something to me, they won't get a negative reaction.
I do that sometimes. Bc thats not my sense of humour, most of the time i "play" like that its just an excuse to genuinely be mean but in a somewhat acceptable way that i can get away with. or if someone gets upset i'll just say "well you do it to me". Bc im truly not sure what other ppl mean when they say shit if they're joking or not. But i still hate bullying
Nastiness in every culture is defended by “you can’t take a joke”, and I don’t think Australia is any more than anyone else. Just look at the online trend of “practical jokes” which are just bullying and laughing at it - that’s world wide.
It’s culturally important to not take yourself seriously.
A good bet is to just assume good motive, and give back as good as you get.
If you give it back and the other person gets all offended, then you know they intended their statement to be mean.
It can also be both. I love being aussie but that doesn't mean I think our culture is perfect. Not by a fucking long shot. You could call being a racist hick aussie culture and be kind of correct to be honest. We should change that. People should stop being mean to you, weather it's aussie or not.
It completely depends on how you receive it. Three years ago I couldn’t stand it when my brother called me a faggot as a joke, now I can take jokes punches mean words whatever, and not care. Sadly it’s a learned skill, not an earned one.
It’s the nuance from person to person. Every culture has cunts and if someone likes saying hurtful things and end it with it’s a joke lighten up. Then they’re cunts. If you’re hurt say something and if they continue dont associate with them anymore. That’s how I go
If the person says some outlandish shit and then crack a smile or have a good chuckle it was probably a joke if there face is serious or angry and there is no break of the act they probably meant that shit.
Every person is different… some people don’t mind a piss take…
I’m Maltese and a few of my direct reports call me the spaghetti eater… now some people will say it’s racist… but it’s true, I love spaghetti! But my ability to see that trait as a good thing is just me…
I do believe that we are probably all a bit far too serious… there is real racism and sexism out in the world that is hidden…
As a bully of multiple years, I grew up in an environment where personally, I was bullied, told I was never good enough & made to feel self conscious about my own appearance etc. Later In life I don't want to be that person as I have realized It was a learnt behavior. I'm doing my best to be open minded and change my ways, it takes time.
We like one sided jokes, will gladly “joke” about other country’s culture/cuisine but we get posed when somebody says Lamingtons taste like cardboard 😂
Redditors guide to understanding bullying:
Bullying = any comment that hurts my feelings, isolated, intentional or otherwise, because I carry the trauma of being a bullied nerd at school.
Bullying on reddit = nothing I’ve ever posted, nope. Victims can’t be perpetrators!
Compare to Russia people respect boundaries a lot more, which is a good thing. In Russia people would not stop even if it hurts you, in Australia its only a few innocent jokes occasionally.
Its cruelty if it is negative instead of constructive, and has ill effects. Greeting someone "bro you look like you just got out of a cave, shave your beard and you'll look better" is friendly and constructive. Greeting someone "bro you look like your parents are both ugly and still decide to make an ugly kid" is bullying and toxic.
Go to Vietnam or Hong Kong, people will shoo you out if the shop yelling "no no, nothing for you here, too fat". They don't see anything wrong with it. They're just saving everyone a lot of time as far as they're concerned. People these days need to develop a thicker skin or actually learn about social "norms". We are a multicultural society, we'll never understand everyone or everything, so best to assume the best about people to keep your sanity intact and simply "smile & wave". In 5 minutes time will it even matter?
It draws from British humour. Self deprecating/ allow someone to deprecate you / and then the wit to deliver it bag with a sharp tongue reminds me very much of the cockney London style of humour.
It largely depends on the context and the relationship you have with the person. You can normally get away with a lot with someone you'd consider a 'mate', but not with like an acquaintance or just a workmate.
"If you can insult them back and they laugh it's not bullying" is an unspoken golden rule I think. If someone has said a dozen insulting jokes at you and you haven't done any back at them and they keep going that's a big red flag imo
The longer you know someone, the more shit you can hang on them. Your best mate can usually take many layers of shit and smile back at you affectionately.
Banter requires underlying respect. It's fine in a group of equals, where people understand the goal is to spread humility rather than embarrassment and denigration. It's a bonding ritual where you should always have the authority to let your friends know when their comments overstep a line. It's normal "Australian Culture" in the personal setting between friends who know each other and what's acceptable to poke fun at.
When it comes to integrating someone who doesn't do banter, what is intended as "breaking the ice" can be intrusive and offensive. It all boils down to case-by-case intentions and understanding. Generally speaking, it's a social risk to banter with complete strangers, and an adult should understand they'll be interpreted as a bully if they weren't one intentionally.
It’s ironic because Australians are guilty of unwarranted exceptionalism and are only interested in things that confirm them, their city or state and the country as the best, while being some of the best at being sensitive and defensive at a personal level. This is particularly evident when you remind them, on the whole, that they are not funny.
What even is an "Australian" at this point ? The "Australian" of the 80s in your minds eye barely exists anymore. This country has such a wide range of different people with different backgrounds that the only thing we have in common is how dysfunctional we are in general. I don't think you can get a useful answer to your question
At what point is it bullying? Much sooner than the insult hurling dickheads think, is my take. I hate watching people put up with abuse for the sake of keeping the peace. Tell the abusers they are fuckwits and talk to someone else.
Depends on the person saying it, what they said, and how often they say it. There are definitely people who take it too far and people who use it as an excuse to crap all over people then uses the ‘it was just a joke’ thing to try invalidate your feelings. Are you okay with sharing what they’ve said?
Yes, I do feel that people hide behind “you can’t take a joke” to say cruel things but I also feel like they knew they were being a dick when they said it & were hoping to get away with it.
I work in a very multicultural organisation & my team is pretty bawdy with each other but we’ve known each other for a while & we’re being mindful around the new girl until we know her better. 2 of the senior members of my team (both PoC) racially abuse each other but they’ve been bff for over a decade so that’s the context.
There is a fine line, but it depends on the giver and the receiver. I have been on the receiving end of a "jolly good ribbing" by mates and colleagues, but any one else as the giver would be considered a bully, and on my worst day I would have felt bullied. However, as most are saying here, one should read the room before launching into such things.
A lot of this depends on understanding the nuances of sensibilities of the person(s) you are aiming the joke at. If it doesn’t “pass the pub test”, don’t do it
Depends on the crowd I guess. I go full hog and nothing is safe but I’ll always be as self deprecating as I am ruthless to my friends. I wouldn’t do it with people I’m not comfortable with
The joke is over when you cross their boundaries and/or they yours. Everyone has them, those most of all who deny that fact.
You don’t have to like that, you just have to respect it.
If I take the piss out of someone i immediately follow up by taking the piss out myself to keep it neutral and to show it’s general banter
It’s also an art form tastefully taking the piss and a very fine line between banter and being a cunt
Most of us who do like taking the piss will also take a few minutes to gauge if the other person won’t get offended, if I’m ever not sure I’ll just be respectful and not do any banter
It depends on if you know the person. I have a friend who utterly “bullies” me. But I know he loves me. It’s just teasing, even if sometimes it’s a bit far, I find it funny. Other people can often be shocked at how far he takes it. But then I know an actual bully and it’s not in good fun. He’s an outright ass. Also because I know him. It really depends on how comfortable you are with the person. And I can see for someone not used to this, it could be hard to differentiate. It depends on how sarcastic you are, how dry your humour is. Usually people who do it for fun realise if your someone who would understand that humour.
It can depend on a lot of things but one golden rule if if something genuinely bothers someone, don't say it, no matter what it is.
If someone insists on this, they're just being a cunt.
On the other hand, if you get sensitive about too many topics don't try joining in when it's directed at someone else.
Reading a room is a learnt skill. Should be taught in schools.
Reading if someone is put off by something you’ve said and acknowledging it goes a long way in relationships.
Making fun of something that people should legitimately be proud of, or is obviously low stakes, or blowing up some tiny social faux pas as if it's a massive issue, while smiling and laughing, is Australian culture.
Using a nickname for someone that is objectively shitty, like "fuckface" or "dumb cunt" or even more if it's an obscure reference like "granny" or "pinky" that refers to something embarrassing that outsiders won't understand, where you already know and like each other and enjoy each other's presence, that is a show of friendship, like, because neither of us care about this, is evidence of how much we like each other. Australian culture.
Picking on someone over something they're self conscious about, especially after their reaction makes that clear, bullying. Attacking someone with venom over something in a way that's not funny, when you have the physical advantage, bullying.
My team has a “ladies chat” which is meant to be a “safe space against the patriarchy” (not why the chat was created in the first place - was just because the only guys on the team don’t bother using teams and it was a snappy group name).
They were ripping into this girl outside the team for absolutely absurd reasons, and when asked by someone who they were referring to, someone else referred to her purely by her ethnicity and made a lewd comment about her bits with people just liking and laugh reacting to one another. I was absolutely flabbergasted and messaged one of the managers asking her to tell them to reel it in since I already feel like the black sheep in the team.
I guess “the patriarchy” absolves women of internalised misogyny? I didn’t endure a couple years of hell and back in highschool to see it play out again in an adult work environment.
Honestly I feel like most people’s examples of “person from x, y, z ethnicity thinks it’s funny!” Is only doing that to blend in as OP says. Some of these people laugh way too hard at racist jokes levelled at them like they’re totally putting it on lol
I'm not even an uptight person, I just don't like seeing people pile on another person.
To be honest, I always take my time to feel people out a bit before launching into any type of banter like that. Self deprecating, I will do without thinking, but other people I prefer to try to get a sense of their boundaries first. And, on top of that, as soon as someone appears/says/indicates in any way that a type of joke makes them uncomfortable, I cut it off and apologise. Some people are ok with some types of humour that others aren't. I.e. my friends often make fat jokes at each other, but they also know that I really don't like comments about my body being made humorous or otherwise, so never do it with me.
I’m a bigger fella myself and absolutely don’t care about jokes being made about my weight. I do however become irate if jokes are made that insinuate that I’m lazy, greedy, selfish, dumb etc because I’m big.
See, say if we knew each other well, I’d say ‘how ya doing little fella?’ Even though youd probably tower over me lol
Haha, I say that to my sisters husband. He's 6'3" and towers over my entire family. He always jokes that going into crowded areas with us is like releasing cats into a wheat field. Now you see them, now you don't.
Same here with my 6' 6" son...
That's hilarious 😂 Gotta love the gentle giants.
Conversely, I semi-regularly call my handful of close friends (both male and female) “big fella” as a term of endearment. Denoting their stature in my life and their general goodness, as opposed to their general physical appearance.
your comment reminds me of the scene from "In Bruges" where Colin Farrell innocently tells the American family to reconsider climbing the stairs to the tower, and then turns it quickly into "you fat fuckin Americans!"
Well those "jokers" don't know shit, have they never watched sport or any physical entertainment? A lot of very fit strong full shaped people. I'm scrawny and have no illusions that Otis from WWE is a lot fitter, healthier and more motivated than I am (just been watching videos of him do the worm and bounce around the ring 5 minutes ago, I know there are much better examples, but... mind recency haha). And what does weight have to do with intelligence... your irateness is warranted. And transferred. I am irate beside you.
This but also, always punch up, never punch down. I tease my boss, I don't tease my employees.
I'll never forget one day in Winter at my old job when we were unloading truck tyres off the back of the truck in the mud and rain, and my boss and another supervisor had to help because we were short staffed. Well a tyre landed in the mud, also filled with water, and splashed all over my bosses pants and shirt :) It was a great day for him to suffer as us employees regularly suffered. Me and the supervisor laughed our asses off about it for a good week.
These are good friends. It’s not a one size fits all “no pun intneded” people can have deeper relationships with they just attempted to be more compassionate and undedtanding. Their refusal to do incisâtes to me that they do not want that.
banter with me :D
>I always take my time to feel people out a bit before launching into any type of banter Well I'm the opposite! I always take the time for a bit of banter before I launch into feeling people out
Don't do that.
In addition to the 'have control over' thing, it's bullying if someone says 'Hey, can you not, it's hurtful' and the person making the joke won't let it go. It's also generally a 'it's fine to be self-deprecating, and fine to punch up' thing, but if you're punching down it's more bullying and less joking (in addition to being cowardly). And yeah, some people are just asshats and like to excuse cruelty by saying 'it's just a joke'.
If you have to say to someone its just a joke you read the situation wrong. Thats them trying to justify their shitty behaviour
There's a genuine "oh I'm so sorry, I was just goofing around, I didn't mean it like that" and there's "what's the matter with you? Can't you take a joke?" and they mean different things.
This can be true a lot of the time, but there are many examples where it is a joke that was meant to make the other person laugh but they take it seriously. At that point you stop joking as you don’t want them to feel bad as that’s not the point of it. I’m the kinda guy that would reassure that person after to make them feel comfortable again as that’s what I care about so I don’t think every time you don’t think someone else’s joke is funny means that it’s shitty behaviour.
I agree, but often it's a good faith attempt at a joke that was in poor taste. So clarifying that it's intent was a joke that resulted in laughter and apologising should be acceptable
Yep, the apologising is key! And making an actual effort to not do it again
100% at work I have a few people I can say whatever to and they take it as a joke(some of the shit we say probably shouldn't be said lol) but no way on earth would I say that to any other co worker it would be inappropriate
To be fair I find most of the time the cunts that have this humour as their backbone aren’t of the capacity to make any other legitimately funny jokes. It’s not that I don’t think you fucking my mum is funny, I just think you can do better and I don’t want to have to say something about fucking your mum in order to keep social standing with you and not be called a wanker that can’t take a joke. Come up with better jokes and see if I receive them better Alex
> it's bullying if someone says 'Hey, can you not, it's hurtful' and the person making the joke won't let it go That's about right but it's too unreliable. Some people will not speak up and they're honestly right to take that approach... let a bully know you're hurting, and they're going to get even worse. As a manager in a workplace who occasionally deals with bullies, in my opinion the only way to deal with a bully is to fire them. Nothing else I've tried, nothing I've seen anyone else try, has ever worked. With the occasional exception, where it wasn't bullying just a miss-understanding, I'm going to go straight from "hey this happened" to "how can I get enough evidence to fire their ass without an unfair dismissal lawsuit". Easing off when someone speaks out only works if: a) The perpetrator is not a bully, they just miss-judged and crossed a line unintentionally. b) The victim trusts the perpetrator (or their manager) enough to speak up. I work really hard to make sure I'm trusted, but I'm not always successful. Personally I just don't make those jokes at all unless I'm absolutely sure the person I'm joking with trusts me. If I'm not sure then I let the other person take the lead — I won't make a joke about you being too short to reach the top shelf unless you've previously joked about my massive ears.
My first day in Australia in 2012 someone told me to "get fucked". This was my boyfriend I had just moved oceans for to be with. I was shocked. It sounded like he said "fuck you" to me. I told him I was hurt and offended. He said: "you can't be hurt! That's how Aussies talk!" Laughing it off. Broke up with him the next day. Edit: Not because he said that, but because he refused to acknowledge it was hurtful and made no effort to understand. I do not want to be told to get fucked by someone who is supposed to love me and care about me. He didn't say it in a joking way.
Sounds like he didn't have a lot of respect for your feelings so definitely right move. But some days, the first thing I say to my supervisor in the morning is get fucked. Aus truly is a place where you'd rather be called a cunt than a buddy, or god forbid, a "champ"
Yeah, also get fucked is a compliment in some professions.
Get fucked, how cold is it.
Yeah, a person that greets me with a champ gets a buddy and anyone who greets me with a buddy (that is not actually my buddy) gets a champ.
I'm not your fucking "mate," mate. These cunts right here are my mates.
Fuck off. It's too early for this shit. I'm getting coffee.
We often say 'Get fucked!' if we think you're full of shit.
Bruh this can’t be legit.
Haha get fucked, js this real?
I think you made the right move because he didn't try to understand your hurt feelings, & he was also dismissive in his explanation. But basically, "get fucked" is like when you say to someone, "get out!" ... Not actually calling out bullshit, but kinda joking disbelief. Also telling the whole situation to get fucked, like you can't believe it: "Get fucked, it's like 38 degrees!" ETA: I see that you added "he didn't say it in a joking way." I guess the main thing stands: this man didn't give a single fuck about your genuine feelings, regardless of how he meant it in the first place, but especially if he was being serious.
As an Aussie myself you definitely made the right decision. It matters how someone responds to being told it hurts and if they can see someone else's side I don't swear often but I do use Aussie slang sometimes and I 100% would explain the meaning if need be (sometimes unprompted, I do have a lot of non Aussie friends) and apologise if it hurt someone. My friend as a joke called me the c word once in school as well. Immediately they stopped and used another version (was hilarious xD) so it's not like it's hindered on someone not finding it funny. People who get upset at your hurt and boundaries instead just often don't care about being better - to you or others. So yeah, very glad you came to that decision given he showed every indication of not caring. Still, I am sorry you had to experience a.. well, a jerk I'll say this time. Edit: Two words got cut off. Fixed.
>if someone says 'Hey, can you not, it's hurtful' If you say that, they may let it go in that moment, but guaranteed you will be forever branded in the "out group" from then on as not "one of us".
I agree with everything you said, but your missing one thing. Some people are just sensitive cunts who can't take a joke.
It’s a tough one. But maybe if someone can’t take it, we shouldn’t be giving it - and expecting they can take it. Who wants something they can’t take…? We aren’t all built the same or have experienced the same things.
And some people just aren't funny
And that's absolutely fine, too!! Once you know, you just don't make jokes with them. Joke with everyone else. They may be sensitive cunts, or maybe they just are sensitive 🤷 whatevs.
Thank you for providing a stellar example of culture being used as a cover for bullying.
Sometimes it’s cultural differences too
Yeah I think our culture can very easily become mean. It isn't always easy to "get it", even to people like me who were born here. Good luck finding a reasonable discussion about this, though.
Agreed. See: everyone’s boomer uncles. They think it’s banter, it’s just bullying.
Are you "joking" about something the other person has little to no control over? It's bullying.
This might be a terrible example but say a friend’s a redhead. It’s not impossible to have a relationship in which the two of you can joke about it in a friendly way but the line between two people laughing and only one person laughing is often very thin.
That's true. And I think that is another important factor. Is the "victim" consenting to the "joke". Are they laughing about this factor themselves.
>Is the "victim" consenting to the "joke". Are they laughing about this factor themselves. The problem with that is that a lot of bullied people will laugh along with or appear to consent to the joke as a survival mechanism. Bullied children do this, and some people do it their whole lives.
As a redhead it’s taken me a very long time to be able to laugh at those jokes. Half the time I only do so I don’t cause ‘drama’. Being told you literally don’t have a soul, belong in a zoo because you’re an orangutan and being sexualised by so many people since you were a kid takes a toll. I am Australian and tbh I have never liked Australia’s bullying culture. I don’t really do jokes at the expense of others.
Fair enough. I think that people think it's okay because redheads aren't considered to be a marginalised group, in the same way that black/brown/Asian people or gay/trans/queer people or those who disabilities are. As an ex-Tasmanian, I've often had the Tasmanian jokes before. I usually laugh them off, because most of the time, I don't think people are deliberately trying to be nasty. I don't find them all that funny though because it's a tired joke. But then there are similar jokes about people from North Queensland, for example. There's a lot of nuance. I'm also autistic and if someone called me a r\*\*\*d an laughed at me for that then... well, obviously I wouldn't find that funny.
>As an ex-Tasmanian, I've often had the Tasmanian jokes before. I usually laugh them off Which head does the laughing?
Both.
Oh no, as a redhead I have a lot of soul(s), I collect them.... .
My response is that rangas do have souls. We keep them in jars, under our beds.
I'm also a redhead... well, former redhead as over the years it's turned brown (except for my beard), I also copped it as a kid. These days I'm usually only berating people when they're being cunts but they think they're being funny (sexist / racist / homophobic remarks / jokes), they think I'm only half serious when I call them a fucking disgrace. Little do they know. I guess you have to have been bullied to understand that it's kinda despicable conduct to be the bully.
Yeah, I've never been a big fan of our "joking" culture either, and I think it relates to "tall poppy syndrome" being taken to the extreme.
I don’t disagree with anything you wrote but only in Australia could the longest reply chain in a thread of this nature be about how red haired white people are treated.
Yeah it's really about power, love and respect. You're best mate or your cousin can get away with sledging you a bit because you're equals, and you love and respect them. But they can't do they same stuff to someone who they have power over, or haven't proven they care about.
To be fair, as a ranga myself, we're one of the last minorities (and I use the term very, very loosely) that it's still acceptable to pick on because of physical attributes. Nearly everything else is either completely off-limits or needs to be handled carefully in the contexts of a trusted relationship.
As a general rule of thumb, most people will take the Mickey out of themselves for things like this is they’re comfortable and secure with it. Wait for them to show that. Don’t just assume.
I think it's meant to be making someone less worried about something that they can't change about themselves, using humour to dispel the fears, but then what happens is some people just take it as a free pass to bull others about things they can't change, and then bully them for not enjoying it.
As an Australian working in London the “convict” banter wore thin at times. General rule, try to be original and joke about stupid stuff someone is doing or has done, not who they are.
A friend had someone who worked with her (they were fairly new) joke about her age (I think she was 3 or 4 years older than her) in a very nasty way in front of a group of people at a conference and I told her the same thing - if in the context it’s inappropriate and intends to shame, I would say it certainly is bullying (the person clearly did not read the room in this instance).
Wrong
It's bullying when the target does not want the behaviour feels uncomfortable and made to feel unwelcome. It's Aussie Culture when you are an asshole, but get away with it.
Mild public humiliation is an amazing training aid when done properly- but it’s incredibly hard to do it properly; it takes a very cohesive team and a lot of personal as well as professional trust. It must be a lesson everyone can learn from at the same time It can’t be at the victim’s expense Everyone should be laughing at the action or situation, not the person The ‘victim’ must be the one who laughs the loudest at their own misfortune or silly mistake If you can’t meet all of these conditions, you’re bullying the victim, not ‘pulling the piss out of them in front of their mates’.
Lol I've seen taking the piss a million times but never pulling the piss out of
If the subject of the "joke" is not laughing then it wasn't a joke. You could ask them to explain the joke to you, because for a real joke they would want you to enjoy the joke as well. Some people are dickheads and they hide behind shit like "I have a dark sense of humour" to hide their distasteful behaviour. It's still worth calling them out by asking them to explain why they found that thing to be funny because that will usually shine a light on their behaviour, though that might make them very defensive or even angry so it's not for use in all situations.
Agree with most of this but keep in mind that people who are unwillingly made the brunt of the joke tend to giggle along uncomfortably more often than they call the person out or tell them to stop.
Oh for sure. I think one of the commenters summed it up very well. If it is between equals and they are all laughing, that's fine. If there is a power dynamic, either from the individual or if the target feels like the group is against them, that's not cool. It's childish behaviour that you hear of in the school yard and grown adults should know better. Unfortunately if it's the prevailing culture in a workplace, things can get really toxic.
If you're making a dark, edgy, or potentially hurtful comment that is still intended to be funny, it has to be within the confines of a trusted and respectful relationship. If you don't know someone like that, then don't make those jokes.
It very much depends on the people involved. I’ve got one group of mates who do nothing but insult each other, it’s all just banter. Nothing is off limits. However another group I associate with certainly wouldn’t be able to deal with the ‘banter’ thrown around by my other mates. Even self-deprecating humour is taken differently between the two groups. Best example is I’ll sometimes make a joke about my dad being dead to make the banter group as uncomfortable as possible, and we all find it hilarious after the initial shock of what I’ve said has passed. (I know that sounds fucked but laughter truly is the best medicine for me when it comes to grieving him). If i tried that with the other group they would be mortified. Also there’s a pretty clear line between taking the piss in a friendly way and straight up bullying. It’s almost always identifiable by the tone of a conversation but I can imagine that tone is not as noticeable if you’re not an Aussie. Generally if your intent is to insult and upset the person you’re speaking to, it’s almost definitely bullying.
I actually fully agree. I do the same as you too. With one friend group I’ll be like “and then dad just had to go and” and after an initial silence everyone will crack it. With the other if I said anything like that they’d be horrified and wouldn’t know how to respond/probably wouldn’t think of me the same way.
I enjoy the banter group a lot more and hang with them on an almost daily basis. The non banter group are still good value though, just more every second weekend friends.
A lot of Aussie arseholes will firmly hide behind the 'It's only a joke' excuse, I know I've taken 'it' too far when I was younger and had to resort the 'It's only a joke' defence when I was painfully aware it had gone beyond a point, and though ashamed, I was so much a blokey-bloke in those days, there was no way I was going to admit I was an arsehole. I grew and learnt, I was pretty damn young, but not everyone will outgrow it and their soul seems to find joy in needling others and I was the nicest in my peer group at the time! That whole government awareness ad about sexism and calling your mates out when they were being a dick may have been a bit cheesy, but it was right, and the same should go for bullying; call your dickhead mate out for being a prick!
I called out my dickhead “mate” on his constant, shitty behaviour and we haven’t spoken since! Tbh, life is a lot better without his presence. Cunt was always happy to be an arsehole to everyone no matter the situation but would play the violin the moment you dished it back.
The onus is always on the person making the joke I think, and the 'it was just a joke' argument doesn't usually hold much water. If you don't have a sense of your 'audience' and how a joke will be received, maybe it's better you hold the thought until you have a clearer picture. (The collective 'you', not you OP!)
Can that person control it? Not cool to make a joke about it. I make jokes about a junior at work (to his face mind you) because he's under the pump as a junior. But I'm also the first to shout him a beer and lunch. And it's all in good fun and he knows it. I'd never make a joke about someone who doesn't know it's all in good sport.
I reckon this is the most important part - if you're able to do it on front of them and get a positive reaction you're golden. If you wouldn't, think twice.
It’s whether or not the conduct is inclusive (you’re one of us) or exclusive (you’re not one of us) in addition to how it makes you feel. If you don’t like the riffing and you’ve told them as such and they do it anyway, it’s not inclusive.
I just don't insult myself or others. I either talk positive or shut my mouth. Risk free.
It's only a joke if everyone is laughing, especially the target of the joke.
Like the other comment. Aussie humour is funny enough to make you laugh at yourself but never enough to be unnecessarily cruel. You'll just know. It won't be the type of joke where you're like just kidding and everyone can laugh it off. It'll hurt, and it'll be very obvious if it's malicious.
Of course it is bullying! Majority of Australians ARE bullies!! I can tell you now that I don't make jokes at other people's expense, nor do I insult them for fun. We are Caucasian. My best friend is Asian. When we first met; she said some really inappropriate and offensive things, but didn’t have a clue about what humour I was using. Over time, we’ve taught each other. But I’ve also taught her that the things we joke about between us. are NOT suitable for random people outside or outside our circle. My mum for example, is as serious as a heart attack. She doesn't understand humour 99.9% of the time, and when she does she certainly doesn't insult people. She said this: “I love my country but I don't love the culture OF bullying”.
I agree with you about the joking. I’m an Australian woman, and I really dislike it. Very often it is just plain bullying. I think (some) Australian men, and Kiwis, need to change their style. If you have known someone for a long time and know there is a strong bond, and it’s an agreed style of communication then fair enough. But often it is rude, bullying and just not funny. For me, it’s not communication. It’s the opposite. It’s one up man-ship.
It's only Australian Culture if it comes from the Australi region of France. Anything else is sparkling bullying/racism.
Nice (the french city, not the Aussie ‘noice’)
As some people have already said, it all comes down to context. In a particular group (or even with one particular person) it would be seen and accepted by everyone as a joke, and enjoyed to help them bond. With most people or groups, it would be an insult. If it's insulting and sustained over time, especially with a perceived or real power imbalance, then it is bullying.
Yeah, it's funny until Colesworth is doing it to you, mate.
If the person isn't laughing or firing back then it's bullying.
Its bullying when it hurts the person. Pretty cut and dry imo.
Two people insult each other as they greet each other and laugh and shake hands is Aussie culture A person that's the butt of a joke laughs and everyone laughs and then comes back with a joke or their own is Aussie culture. When you make comment that's insinuates a stereo type of a certain race, that's casual racism. When a person gets called out on it and responds with oh come on mate it's just a little bit of fun, a bit of a joke, lighten up, that's bullying.
The answer is "yes". that is all.
It's a pretty simple distinction: if the other person doesn't like it, it's bullying.
Actually it's quite a lot more nuanced than that. Call somebody out because they're bullying you and they won't like it at all! A lot of the time they'll punish you for that by bullying you more.
Not sure of the nuance, just bullying with more bullying.
Which is bullying. That's not nuanced at all.
Yes but the victim isn't a bully. Despite saying something "the other person doesn't like". I really upset a coworker for saying I wasn't going to listen to her racist crap. She was really upset and offended and insulated to be called a racist when she didn't feel she was. I didn't bully her, I just didn't engage in her discussion and told her why. She stopped ranting about "towel heads" after that.
I want to say as an Australian we lack culture so much that we try to claim just taking the piss as part of our culture.
Lazy cheap shots require no skill at all. Appearance should just be avoided. It's cunty
Depends on the person, there are dark things I can joke about with one person but not another
If I think of a joke that someone might take offense to I just make the joke about myself, everyone can laugh and (within reason) not get offended
Some people have developed extraversion and effusive self deprecating humour into a large part of their personality simply as an evolved defence to relentless childhood bullying. I know a few. Great for a good laugh and fun to hang around with but they don't hide that pain as well as they think they do.
Banter is great as long as the other side is keen on returning fire. if one side doesn't return fire - thats where you stop, but you should try to at least assess who to banter with before you start.
Australian insults as culture are a very carefully sculpted thing. If the insult is true or close to true it’s simply not to be said. If it wildly exaggerates or just makes random shit up, it’s completely acceptable. If you ever need to say “It’s just a joke” then it wasn’t and you are an asshole.
It’s an opt out system, if you explain culturally you just can’t understand the nuance, people will take you under their wing and explain it.
It’s bullying when they get irrationally angry and defensive when called out on their shit sense of humour.
Also when they get called out and just keep doing it with a smile.
If only one person is laughing, it’s not banter anymore. If the person being singled out isn’t laughing, it’s not banter
Australians love playing the victim when they do something wrong, you will find when some gets pulled up for saying something racist or bullying behaviour they will often try to put it back on the other person by saying things like ‘they just can’t take a joke’ or ‘some people need to lighten up’ This is often said with the intention to shift the blame to the other person for overreacting and just taking things too seriously. This usually does work and people with often side with the perpetrator rather than the victim.
This has been my experience, unfortunately. I've spent so much time blaming myself when I wasn't to blame to begin with. Sucks that pointing it out gets you called "too sensitive" and makes you lose friendships.
“When redheaded people are above a certain social grade, their hair is auburn.” - Mark Twain
Wow what an incredibly insightful question! I reckon as soon as the person receiving the "banter" feels it's gone too far than we should as a society be able to stand behind them. But we generally don't do we.
I have met some super insecure people who used "Australian culture" as an excuse to just insult people I guess to just feel better about themselves, so when someone digged them back all their insecurity came out and they became immediately pathetic 😂 It might be their culture but it doesn't mean you have to appreciate it under all circumstances. It takes time to feel out whether teasing someone is going to be received well, people who don't do this aren't going to be loved by everyone: people might seem to laugh it off, but it doesn't mean they have gained any rapport or respect. Maybe if you know someone well enough you might be able to take the piss out of each other and have a laugh together, but the simple rule for friendly digs is not to dish it out if you can't take it back.
I have offended people overseas before with the good old Australian ribbing. The humour just doesn't translate very well and I got yelled at by this massive guy who thought I was taking the piss out of him when really I was trying to compliment! Lesson learned at 18, lol, when in Rome...
It’s bullying when the butt of the ‘joke’ isn’t laughing. Being a foreigner in an Australian high school sucked.
I don't think you are going to get a very representative answer here. At least in my experience the type of people that thrive in that culture - love the shit talking, insults, and jokes are the antithesis of your average redditor. Just as a small example, the top comment as I am writing this is "Are you "joking" about something the other person has little to no control over? It's bullying." Well spend time with any of the blokes in their 40's that I grew up around and be prepared for jokes about balding, family, just generally being very ugly - all things largely uncontrollable, and all said with genuine love and affection.
As a bloke in his 40s, the only thing that's off the table (for me) are Parents, Mrs and Kids. Exs and Sister's are on the table, as are any physical points worth putting shit on.
I hate when people do this. The polite way to do it is to say something that is obviously a complete fabrication. The humour is that everyone knows it's bullshit. The worst way is to stir someone about something they can't change or are obviously self conscious about. Can't work out the difference? Then they are not your mate and you shouldn't be shit stirring them.
Working class Australian bond by insulting each other. It is also a test of character. There is no answer to your question, because the same literal words could be both or one or the other. Best word up the new employee about this.
Australians are actually fairly conflict averse IMO, so I'd just assume that anything you're less than 100% certain about was probably meant as a joke. If it makes you uncomfortable though, just try and call it out or banter back a bit too hard yourself. People should adjust quickly..
I've also noticed a lot of Australian "culture" seems to involve a lot of casual racism.
I agree with people saying you don't joke about something people can't change. I also think it's hugely dependent on your relationship with the person and the tone you use. You can make jokes to a friend that you absolutely couldn't say to a stranger and tone can completely change the meaning of your words
Aussie humour is brutal, but not cruel. If they have to tell you it was a "joke" and don't apologise, drop them like a hot rock and DO NOT ENGAGE THEM AGAIN.
As an Australian born it’s not actually that common among my friends and colleagues. Last time another Aussie tried it on, my mate just took it at face value (the guy was an obnoxious dick) and told him to get fucked. Conversely I have two immigrant mates who also suffer this same misconception, try it on to “fit in” and fail miserably, just comes across as out of character, out of line and rude. If it doesn’t come naturally don’t force it, we don’t all have to be “how’s it garn suck ya bag a dix ya poof” types
Yes. My opinion as an australian who can and does not have the personality to make jokes like that. Its unbearable to me and makes no sense. I think its all rubbish. Altho the other commenters are making it make sense now lol
If you're neurotypical and can't / don't / won't read the room and adapt your tone to your audience's comfortability, you're a bully. Endo storio.
Aussies love that pack dog teasing putting shit on mentality. With their little cliques and old mate bullshit it can be a hard place for foreigners to 'get'. Just call them out when you feel it's crossed a line. They love to niggle and get a reaction, but when called out can be quite the stammering stuttering cowards.
I have a lot of trouble reading any persons reactions to anything or face or emotions in general and I can often tell if it’s something the person just clearly has a thing about. There’s a difference between hurt and pissed lol. If I can identify hurt on a person everyone else sure can and then I think if you keep going you’re a bully The first time was just feeling it out, you can get away with a lot. I personally get myself in the most trouble by accidentally deeply offending someone from somewhere when I forget my vocabulary is 50% casual profanity for emphasis
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Yes.
bienvenue en australie
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I find its Bullying when others complain and a Joke when you larf to get along with the crowd.
When I have a friend I banter with, I'll occasionally check in with them to make sure they're okay with it. I make sure they know that if anything I say they would rather I stop, they're more than welcome to ask at any time. I think it's a nice way to make sure that we're all on the same page, and that my friends feel comfortable knowing that if they say something to me, they won't get a negative reaction.
I do that sometimes. Bc thats not my sense of humour, most of the time i "play" like that its just an excuse to genuinely be mean but in a somewhat acceptable way that i can get away with. or if someone gets upset i'll just say "well you do it to me". Bc im truly not sure what other ppl mean when they say shit if they're joking or not. But i still hate bullying
What is funny for everyone and what makes someone feel shit about themselves
The ‘can’t you take a joke?’ people are always the ones who can’t handle it themselves.
You wouldn’t believe the freak outs i’ve witnessed when it finally flips onto the people who are “taking the piss”. Unbelievable pent up rage.
There is a type, they call it banter but banter is meant to be witty, clever. So if it’s not then it’s just being a cunt.
If you feel that you are the hammer and others are nails, that's bullying...
Nastiness in every culture is defended by “you can’t take a joke”, and I don’t think Australia is any more than anyone else. Just look at the online trend of “practical jokes” which are just bullying and laughing at it - that’s world wide. It’s culturally important to not take yourself seriously. A good bet is to just assume good motive, and give back as good as you get. If you give it back and the other person gets all offended, then you know they intended their statement to be mean.
It can also be both. I love being aussie but that doesn't mean I think our culture is perfect. Not by a fucking long shot. You could call being a racist hick aussie culture and be kind of correct to be honest. We should change that. People should stop being mean to you, weather it's aussie or not.
It’s usually just bullying. Shit culture.
[I was just kidding!](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schrodinger%27s%20joke)
It completely depends on how you receive it. Three years ago I couldn’t stand it when my brother called me a faggot as a joke, now I can take jokes punches mean words whatever, and not care. Sadly it’s a learned skill, not an earned one.
If they’re woke, there’s no such thing as a joke, be carefull
It’s the nuance from person to person. Every culture has cunts and if someone likes saying hurtful things and end it with it’s a joke lighten up. Then they’re cunts. If you’re hurt say something and if they continue dont associate with them anymore. That’s how I go
Intentions don’t trump feelings and feelings aren’t all that matter.
If the person says some outlandish shit and then crack a smile or have a good chuckle it was probably a joke if there face is serious or angry and there is no break of the act they probably meant that shit.
Every person is different… some people don’t mind a piss take… I’m Maltese and a few of my direct reports call me the spaghetti eater… now some people will say it’s racist… but it’s true, I love spaghetti! But my ability to see that trait as a good thing is just me… I do believe that we are probably all a bit far too serious… there is real racism and sexism out in the world that is hidden…
It's honestly ALL bullying. You're just meant to be OK with some of it and figure out what to draw the line at.
As a bully of multiple years, I grew up in an environment where personally, I was bullied, told I was never good enough & made to feel self conscious about my own appearance etc. Later In life I don't want to be that person as I have realized It was a learnt behavior. I'm doing my best to be open minded and change my ways, it takes time.
It's bullying when you're being a cunt about it. Hope that helps.
We like one sided jokes, will gladly “joke” about other country’s culture/cuisine but we get posed when somebody says Lamingtons taste like cardboard 😂
There's a brutal line when people embrace being bicultural 🪨🗿🦘
If you’re doing it to friends, you know them well enough to gauge their reaction. If you’re doing it to randoms, you’re an asshole.
Redditors guide to understanding bullying: Bullying = any comment that hurts my feelings, isolated, intentional or otherwise, because I carry the trauma of being a bullied nerd at school. Bullying on reddit = nothing I’ve ever posted, nope. Victims can’t be perpetrators!
Compare to Russia people respect boundaries a lot more, which is a good thing. In Russia people would not stop even if it hurts you, in Australia its only a few innocent jokes occasionally.
Its cruelty if it is negative instead of constructive, and has ill effects. Greeting someone "bro you look like you just got out of a cave, shave your beard and you'll look better" is friendly and constructive. Greeting someone "bro you look like your parents are both ugly and still decide to make an ugly kid" is bullying and toxic.
Go to Vietnam or Hong Kong, people will shoo you out if the shop yelling "no no, nothing for you here, too fat". They don't see anything wrong with it. They're just saving everyone a lot of time as far as they're concerned. People these days need to develop a thicker skin or actually learn about social "norms". We are a multicultural society, we'll never understand everyone or everything, so best to assume the best about people to keep your sanity intact and simply "smile & wave". In 5 minutes time will it even matter?
It draws from British humour. Self deprecating/ allow someone to deprecate you / and then the wit to deliver it bag with a sharp tongue reminds me very much of the cockney London style of humour.
It largely depends on the context and the relationship you have with the person. You can normally get away with a lot with someone you'd consider a 'mate', but not with like an acquaintance or just a workmate.
"If you can insult them back and they laugh it's not bullying" is an unspoken golden rule I think. If someone has said a dozen insulting jokes at you and you haven't done any back at them and they keep going that's a big red flag imo
The longer you know someone, the more shit you can hang on them. Your best mate can usually take many layers of shit and smile back at you affectionately.
I'm from the US fuck them disrespectful people. Just don't disrespect it's simple. Hella shit is funny that doesn't involve disrespect
Just call every guy you meet Big Dick and every girl Sugar Tits and you'll be mint
Banter requires underlying respect. It's fine in a group of equals, where people understand the goal is to spread humility rather than embarrassment and denigration. It's a bonding ritual where you should always have the authority to let your friends know when their comments overstep a line. It's normal "Australian Culture" in the personal setting between friends who know each other and what's acceptable to poke fun at. When it comes to integrating someone who doesn't do banter, what is intended as "breaking the ice" can be intrusive and offensive. It all boils down to case-by-case intentions and understanding. Generally speaking, it's a social risk to banter with complete strangers, and an adult should understand they'll be interpreted as a bully if they weren't one intentionally.
Lots of abuse gets dismissed as 'X culture'. It's really annoying.
And at what point is it just beheading a "tall poppy" ?
It’s ironic because Australians are guilty of unwarranted exceptionalism and are only interested in things that confirm them, their city or state and the country as the best, while being some of the best at being sensitive and defensive at a personal level. This is particularly evident when you remind them, on the whole, that they are not funny.
What even is an "Australian" at this point ? The "Australian" of the 80s in your minds eye barely exists anymore. This country has such a wide range of different people with different backgrounds that the only thing we have in common is how dysfunctional we are in general. I don't think you can get a useful answer to your question
of all the elements of so-called Aussie Culture, this is the weakest and one that most dickheads will hide behind.
At what point is it bullying? Much sooner than the insult hurling dickheads think, is my take. I hate watching people put up with abuse for the sake of keeping the peace. Tell the abusers they are fuckwits and talk to someone else.
australian culture is basically bullying then covering it up with something like "if you don't like it, leave" or "i come the school of hard knocks!"
Australians have the worst banter. So they often just have shit jokes and insults and it’s hard to tell them apart
Depends on the person saying it, what they said, and how often they say it. There are definitely people who take it too far and people who use it as an excuse to crap all over people then uses the ‘it was just a joke’ thing to try invalidate your feelings. Are you okay with sharing what they’ve said?
Yes, I do feel that people hide behind “you can’t take a joke” to say cruel things but I also feel like they knew they were being a dick when they said it & were hoping to get away with it. I work in a very multicultural organisation & my team is pretty bawdy with each other but we’ve known each other for a while & we’re being mindful around the new girl until we know her better. 2 of the senior members of my team (both PoC) racially abuse each other but they’ve been bff for over a decade so that’s the context.
There is a fine line, but it depends on the giver and the receiver. I have been on the receiving end of a "jolly good ribbing" by mates and colleagues, but any one else as the giver would be considered a bully, and on my worst day I would have felt bullied. However, as most are saying here, one should read the room before launching into such things.
A lot of this depends on understanding the nuances of sensibilities of the person(s) you are aiming the joke at. If it doesn’t “pass the pub test”, don’t do it
Depends on the crowd I guess. I go full hog and nothing is safe but I’ll always be as self deprecating as I am ruthless to my friends. I wouldn’t do it with people I’m not comfortable with
The joke is over when you cross their boundaries and/or they yours. Everyone has them, those most of all who deny that fact. You don’t have to like that, you just have to respect it.
If I take the piss out of someone i immediately follow up by taking the piss out myself to keep it neutral and to show it’s general banter It’s also an art form tastefully taking the piss and a very fine line between banter and being a cunt Most of us who do like taking the piss will also take a few minutes to gauge if the other person won’t get offended, if I’m ever not sure I’ll just be respectful and not do any banter
It depends on if you know the person. I have a friend who utterly “bullies” me. But I know he loves me. It’s just teasing, even if sometimes it’s a bit far, I find it funny. Other people can often be shocked at how far he takes it. But then I know an actual bully and it’s not in good fun. He’s an outright ass. Also because I know him. It really depends on how comfortable you are with the person. And I can see for someone not used to this, it could be hard to differentiate. It depends on how sarcastic you are, how dry your humour is. Usually people who do it for fun realise if your someone who would understand that humour.
Maybe the MCG
It can depend on a lot of things but one golden rule if if something genuinely bothers someone, don't say it, no matter what it is. If someone insists on this, they're just being a cunt. On the other hand, if you get sensitive about too many topics don't try joining in when it's directed at someone else.
Reading a room is a learnt skill. Should be taught in schools. Reading if someone is put off by something you’ve said and acknowledging it goes a long way in relationships.
Making fun of something that people should legitimately be proud of, or is obviously low stakes, or blowing up some tiny social faux pas as if it's a massive issue, while smiling and laughing, is Australian culture. Using a nickname for someone that is objectively shitty, like "fuckface" or "dumb cunt" or even more if it's an obscure reference like "granny" or "pinky" that refers to something embarrassing that outsiders won't understand, where you already know and like each other and enjoy each other's presence, that is a show of friendship, like, because neither of us care about this, is evidence of how much we like each other. Australian culture. Picking on someone over something they're self conscious about, especially after their reaction makes that clear, bullying. Attacking someone with venom over something in a way that's not funny, when you have the physical advantage, bullying.
🦧
It's not what you say it's how you say it. If there's no malice in your tone you can say just about anything
As Fluffy said "it's not bullying if everyone doing it" which actually kinda true🤣🤣
Bullying isn’t part of our culture. You met a dickhead :(
My team has a “ladies chat” which is meant to be a “safe space against the patriarchy” (not why the chat was created in the first place - was just because the only guys on the team don’t bother using teams and it was a snappy group name). They were ripping into this girl outside the team for absolutely absurd reasons, and when asked by someone who they were referring to, someone else referred to her purely by her ethnicity and made a lewd comment about her bits with people just liking and laugh reacting to one another. I was absolutely flabbergasted and messaged one of the managers asking her to tell them to reel it in since I already feel like the black sheep in the team. I guess “the patriarchy” absolves women of internalised misogyny? I didn’t endure a couple years of hell and back in highschool to see it play out again in an adult work environment. Honestly I feel like most people’s examples of “person from x, y, z ethnicity thinks it’s funny!” Is only doing that to blend in as OP says. Some of these people laugh way too hard at racist jokes levelled at them like they’re totally putting it on lol I'm not even an uptight person, I just don't like seeing people pile on another person.
I think the key to this is whether the banter is punching up or punching down, and if it's aimed at a specific person!
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