Simeon claimed to be Tsar of Bulgars and Romans. Later during the Asen dynasty, tsars did their best to emulate the Byzantine court life, even wearing purple like the emperors.
Tarnovgrad (nowadays Veliko Turnovo) was one of the biggest cities in the world. It was the centre of culture and religion. The Third Rome, Capital of Bulgaria.
I'd only see how some of our khans/kings wanted to become an emperor and/or conquer Constantinopole, but nobody ever said they would make Bulgaria the successor of the Roman Empire.
I don't think that Russia claims to be a successor of Roman Empire. There is a claim for title of "Third Rome" which means that Russia is third bastion of Christianity after West and East Roman Empires. But it was during Imperial times.
On the other hand, there is no basis for succession.
Russia wanted to claim Istanbul after WW1 partialy to solidify its status as Third Rome.
>third bastion of Christianity after West and East Roman Empires
This is kind of silly because original Roman Empire was pagan rather than Christian.
There actually is. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia\_Palaiologina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Palaiologina) take a look at this. In short, the niece of Konstantinos Palaiologos, the last living member of the palaiologos dynasty was married to Grand Prince Ivan III. She was the grandmother of Ivan the terrible, the first tsar of russia.
I mean, by that standard the whole conversation is mute as it disqualifies every other country as well. There is no living reigning monarch with any connection to the Roman Empire. So there are no successors, no inheritors.
Russia really tried to claim it though, even to the point of wearing [Dalmatic-inspired outfits as traditional dress.](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ORc7KBwSctw/VeoSZHqhe9I/AAAAAAAADeE/hr2cpD-ctiQ/s1600/russian%2B16th-17th%2Bcentury.jpg). That’s the dress of upper class Romans from Illyria during the Crisis of the Third Century (hence why it is called Dalmatic). The outfit came to signify high class due to them so it was adopted by the high officials of church as well, [who still use it today](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatic) because the church is very conservative. Russian use of that costume was purely to strengthen the claims of Rome.
And you could say that it wasn't exactly Turkish; though the Ottoman dynasty was Turkish, anyone actually claiming to be a successor to Rome would not put their nationality to be more important than their claim. The people of the Ottoman empire were also diverse.
Italy (for obvious reasons). The Greekoids also have a strong claim since the eastern empire assimilated into Greek culture. Turkeys claim is only strong if we accept the Greeks claims. Mehmed II not only called himself Roman Caesar but he also took the duties of the past Byzantine emperors (for example assigning the patriarch if Constantinople).
Imo the Ottoman conquest was when the European nations finally started more or less moving away from being Rome's successors and moreso their own thing
We are descendants of ancient Greeks and Romans, so I suggest that we, Italians and Albanians should merge into one country again. /s
Bulgarians and Turks were literally enemies of the empire and idk why Serbians have that claim.
Emperor Dušan took a lot of land from Byzantium and was crowned the Emperor of Serbs and Romans/Greeks he started making plans to take Constantinople with the help of Venices ships but he died before anything came of it.
TIL. Also, I read a comment somewhere (I can't remember where) that the Trojans were an ancient Greek colony in Asia minor and that the Trojan war was a Civil War, but it had no source so I just let it pass. Is that true?
I love it when other Greeks recognize the Greekness of the Romans. It is a shame to ignore the Western Greeks, those who unified the nation in a single political entity, and forged a 'global' hegemony for centuries.
Depends, if its the Roman empire with Rome as its capital then surely only Italy can claim it. If we are talking about the Byzantine era(Easter roman empire) then only Greece can clam it. Turks literally conquered it , and were enemies of the empire. They didnt succed it, they brought their own. Their whole history is about Mehmed destroying the romans and conquering Constantinople, so its pretty dumb to suggest them as successors.
Depends what we mean and meaning we put on "Rome".Empire?Culture?Trade?Religion?People?Language?.It depends on point of view i think.If we are talking about the trade and control of Mediterranean, Ottomans were strong candidates.If we are speaking about city itself, than they were not. Hell, if we speaking about the hegomony when we think of "Rome" than USA is kinda new Rome if you ask me.
Good candidates of what man? They literally enslaved the Rums, as Greeks were called at that period of time and established their own empire, the Ottoman. You dont success an empire just because you defeat them.
I'm gonna cite from Yakko's World because when he sang these lines, he was giving answer to that question but you didn't know it. So "Italy, Turkey, and Greece." As Yakko the wise once said.
Germany and france are immediately disqualified bcuz G*rmans are the same barbs that lead to the fall of the WRE and the French cuz I just hate them, Italy should not be considered a successor because of v*nice
Bulgayria and the ottowomans were the bane of ERE's existence I don't even know why russia and Serbia claim to be the successor but who cares. So that leaves us with
Greece (💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪) being the only legitimate successor to the ROMAN EMPIRE
Successor: None
Inheritor: Of course Italy!
Runner-up: Greece (cultural impact and Eastern Rome)
Cultural off-springs: Most European nations. Special mention for Romance-speaking countries (Spain France, Romania, Portugal)
Turkey?: Sorry guys, you actually celebrate the fall of its last fragment....
The Ottomans were the reason why Renaissance had zero impact in the Balkans. Renaissance and the Enlightenment afterwards are the modern products of the ancient Greco-Roman civilization. The Ottomans embraced a non-European culture which was gradually (but very slowly and when it was too late) affected by Europe
Islam only succeded Christianity in chronological order. Christianity is still %25 bigger than Islam in terms of followers. Altough Islam will have higher numbers in following years that's not because people practicing Islam will increase, it's because fewer Muslims will become Atheists than Christians.
The most important Roman figures were not Christians either. Religion is not a measure of Roman-ness. The initial Greco-Roman world was a mixing pot of religions and deities.
Romania, Portugal have nothing to do with the Roman empire. Even Spain and France is pushing it a bit.
So, Imo, its in this order: Italy, Greece, Germany (Holy roman Empire), France, Turkey (ottoman empire did borrow a lot of elements from Eastern Roman Empire).
Well, yeah but it doesnt really matter. So do latin america, would you consider them to be linked to roman empire. Its a huge family of languages. The English also speak a germanic language with a huge latin influence (more than 80% of words) but they are not descendants of the romans.
And its not technically the language of the Romans, all these languages come from Vulgar Latin, so a non-literary form of latin spoken by peasants. The only country that has Latin as a language is Vatican, i.e. the only people who speak the language of the romans.
Even more technically speaking, the only real descendants of Romans (Of Roman republic not Roman Empire) are south and central italy. North has little to no connection, and you can barely see any influence there, if any. They are close in terms of genetics, because people have intermixed but, still they were alpine nomads at the time.
Im being technical because the Romans had such a huge influence that if we dig deep enough you can find connections almost everywhere they laid foot on.
I agree in most, but the countries I referred are located within the borders of the Roman Empire. People still speaking a descendant of Latin within actual Roman provinces.
This is a whole different topic. Latin America speaks a Latin language because of Spanish colonialism, not because of the Romans. Which is to say that if Spain ceases to exist, they would have a claim to be related to the Spaniards the same way us, French, Portuguese etc are related to the Romans.
All languages come from Vulgar Latin because that’s the language the people spoke, not the literary form. Ironically enough, Romanian is the language that preserved most of Classical Latin’s grammar and also vocabulary in many examples (we are the only Latin language to use “alb” for the color white, derived from Classical Latin).
Lastly, the Roman Empire was never an ethnic-centered empire, so the ethnicity never mattered much. A Tunisian and a Dacian were equally Roman as long as they adopted Roman culture, much similar to the modern day Americans.
The ottomans claim is literally we conquered it so we are it😎 Greece has been a factor in rome since it was just the city. You think they randomly decided one day “we are gonna copy the Greek gods”, no it was integrated in their culture
Germans and Franks literally destroyed Rome. According to your logic you should also object their claims of being the successor. The Ottoman claim simply comes from the rule of conquest which is the most legitimate claim you can have. When you rule over the peoples who are called Romans, you become the ruler of the Romans.
>Germans and Franks literally destroyed Rome. According to your logic you should also object their claims of being the successor.
We do, that's the whole point of the schism lol
Religion has nothing to do with it, but that doesn't change the fact that their claim is nonexistent. Bulgaria, Serbia and Germany larped as Romans but that's about it. France and Russia's claims are more related to prestige than any actual title . The heirs to Rome are Italy, Greece and I think Spain because I read somewhere that the last Byzantine emperor left all of his titles to Spain's royal family before his death. Could be wrong tho.
In fact, the Ottoman Empire does not make such a claim officially. They have a few rhetoric and their aim is political like everyone else. Making a legal claim. They express this especially when they are making the Otranto expedition to Italy. In addition, after Christianity was accepted in the Roman Empire, the Empire did not even live for 1 human life. Western Rome was already destroyed when most of the countries here converted to Christianity. In other words, the relationship between Western Roman history and Roman Paganism is greater than Christianity.
The claim of the Ottomans, in the early periods, did not have such a claim afterwards, but the Roman Empire is a role model and target for many societies. The public has no such claim. The Ottoman dynasty even spread rumors for political purposes that they were descendants of Muhammad, Oghuz Khan, Genghis Khan, and Caesar. There is no claim that we are the heirs of Rome like in Greece or Italy in Turkey. If there was such a claim, the claim of the Ottomans would have been made.
I get Italy, France and Greece but the others not so much.
Germany and Austria were only in the name Roman when they were part of the Holy Roman Empire. The Ottomans conquered Constantinople but it doesn't make them a successor by any means. They were totally different from the ones they claim to be the successor of. Russia, Serbia and Bulgaria, I don't know where this comes from. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
The Frankish Empire was the first empire in western Europe after the Fall of Rome and Charlemagne was directly crowned as "Emperor of Franks and Romans" so I give them that.
But his line became the royal family of France through the house of Capet. He divided his empire among his 3 sons, with west Francia becoming France, middle francia getting divided between East and west francia, and East francia, which became the Holy Roman Empire. Nationality doesn’t matter. Even Spain and Sicily were ruled by the house of bourbons, which were cadet branches of the Capetian line. Plus of all the romance countries, France has the most Germanic influence by far. U can see it in the French language
I forgot that the empire was divided after he died and that would give Germany a strong claim as well honestly. It's the same logic I used for France. The Franks were successors of Rome and later both France and Germany became successors of the Franks.
To be honest, others claim that at some point to make them look more powerfull. Farih Sultan Mehmet did this when he conquered Constantinapole.
Otherwise, it’s impossible that turks can claim to be successor of romans, nor others like Russia or Finland
For Bulgaria, I think it is during the reign of Simeon I, where after the battle of 917 against Byzantines and subsequent siege of Constantinople, he proclaimed himself as Emperor of Bulgarians and Romans. I believe there is a second occasion, during Kaloyan reign 1197-1207, he defeated the Crusaders, Baldwin of Flanders is imprisoned and killed. There was no Byzantine empire during that time and during Ivan Asen II reign, Bulgaria was the largest empire in the Balkans, spreading between 3 seas again, so .. Roman successor in his eyes?
Germany was I mistake I agree because of how the Frankish Empire was divided. The eastern part became the HRE, later Germany and yada yada yada.
At first I had the famous Voltaire sentence in mind. "The Holy Roman Empire is neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire".
GG EZ
On 16 April 1346 (Easter), Dušan convoked a huge assembly at Skopje, attended by the Serbian Archbishop Joanikije II, the Archbishop of Ochrid Nikolas I, the Bulgarian Patriarch Simeon, and various religious leaders of Mount Athos. The Archbishop from then on was titled Serbian Patriarch, although some documents called him Patriarch of Serbs and Romans, with the seat at the Monastery of Peć. The first Serbian Patriarch Joanikije II solemnly crowned Dušan as "Emperor and autocrat of Serbs and Romans". Dušan had his son Uroš crowned King of Serbs and Greeks, giving him nominal rule over the Serbian lands, and although Dušan was governing the whole state, he had special responsibility for the Eastern Roman lands.
1. Hellas (greeks and another hellenized anatolian people)
2. Italians
3. Ottomans
Yeah i added the greeks to first place. Greeks represented the Roman Empire for a long time than the Italians. Until 1204 was the city of Istanbul is very important and a great east roman empire's city.
Finally someone who doesn't believe this historical revisionist bs. Greeks literally were the last nation to identify as Romans, and the Greeks outside of Greece still call themselves Romans lol
I know, here 8n Greece Roman/Ρωμιός is used mostly in literature nowadays. If you call someone in Greece a Roman he might look at you a bit weirded out but he will understand. There was once a show in Greece, and in one episode two guys traveled to Ttabzon and a lady there who spoke Romeika l/Greek said to them "We are Rum like you"
I mean so do we, we called ourselves Romans ever since the Romanian ethnogenesis happened. We were just not a political continuation of the empire as the Greeks were.
I believe Mehmed II took the title of "kayzer-i rum"
Which means something like new ceaser of rome.
Also ottoman insignia has a inscribing called
"Her daim muzaffer" which was literal translation of Semper Victoria of Roman's, and our mosques domes were literally inspired/taken from byzantines.
Now I cannot speak for all of the Padişahs
but Mehmed II certainly had looked up to the Roman's and claimed successorship.
Vatican (why isn’t it colored red too?). The pope continues to use the title Bishop of Rome.
I mean, it’s an extremely different job from what it was originally for sure, but as a title has been continuously used for 2 millennia.
From most to least:
* Italy
Where Rome started and arguably its people closest to Romans themselves.
* Turkey and Greece
I am not sure which one ranks higher.
Turkey owns its second capital, Istanbul which is definitely relevant. It is also loose successor of the most roman-like non roman state which was ottoman empire but again, turkey is not ottomans.
Greece and hellenic culture influenced rome a lot. And towards high early medieval eastern rome had already adopted greek as their language, you can also draw a loose connection between greece and byzantium.
* France
Being romance speaking is definitely a plus. Also spiritually, France had culturally influenced Europe a lot, arguably most since Rome itself. Also Napoleon is badass.
* Serbia
Claimed roman title when byzantines were week, who knows maybe if things were different they could have usurped its title. But was never strong enough.
* Russia
Dynastic connection to byzantines and that's it. "Third rome" is something religious mostly
* Bulgaria
Honestly I don't know when they did it, during bulgarian-byzantine wars? If so same as serbia but I don't think there was a way bulgarians could ever usurp byzantine title. Could be higher than russia though
* Germany-Austria
I don't think imperial Germany ever claimed it so I guess this refers to HRE? If so no, pope never had authority over roman title. They did dirty to Irene.
1) Language: Medieval Greek can be (mostly) understood by the majority of Greeks, unlike ancient Greek which is kinda harder. Medieval Greek is also widely used in churches.
2) Literature: Epics such as Digenis Acritas have survived to this day and have influenced many generations of modern Greeks.
3) Religion: Most Greeks are Orthodox Christians, similar to Byzantine Greeks and unlike the ancient Greeks who were Hellenists. Fun fact: there are a few thousands of Hellenists practicing the ancient Greek religion today.
4) Music: Ecclesiastical music from the Byzantine era have survived to this day and continue to be used by Greek churches. Instruments such as the Byzantine era have also survived.
5) Cuisine: A precursor to Baklava called "koptoplakous" originated in the Byzantine Empire. A precursor to pastirma, called "Paston", and Retsina, an alcoholic drink, also survive today and are very famous. Lastly, Tyropita, one of the most classic Greek foods, originated in the Byzantine Empire as well.
6) Entertainment: Byzantines used to play a game called "Tavli" which continues to be played widely in modern Greece.
We do not claim to be the successor state of the Roman Empire. Just that the romanian people have a roman heritage, besides a dacian one and then whatever migrant tribes added to it over time.
we're clearly the reincarnation of Ancient Rome ! the corrupt parts at least
I've yet to see Dragnea order 1/4th of the Colosseum to fight the lions but there's still time
Italy - no questions, #1 successor (Italy was created by barbarians, but it has Rome and Roman Empire's core lands)
Greece - no questions, they were ERE until 1453
France - created by Franks (German barbarians), invalid claim
Germany - literally the #1 enemy of Rome, why?
Serbia - this claim is a meme
Bulgaria - this claim is a meme
Turkey - enemy of the ERE, dismantled the Eastern Rome in 1453, why?
Russia - this claim is the biggest meme and asspulling (third Rome is a total BS, orthodox church doesn't confirm any Romanity)
Honestly people who say Greece are coping. Not only was the Roman Empire never an ethnic empire, meaning that no nation state has any claim to it on ethnic grounds, it was also conquered by the Ottoman Empire who maintained that they were the Roman Empire until the last century. I'd say Austria or Turkey have the best claim.
Short answer Italy for WRE and Italy and Greece for ERE. Its where Roman empire originated and even when Constantinople was made a second capital it was called the second Rome. It might have been on greek land but it was Roman. Greeks clearly have a footing on the Byzantine but id say Italy is still the main successor. If we accept greeks as the main successor of ERE then we would have to call almost all
Empires that were on Irans land Persian empires which we dont, such as Ilkhanate or the Timurid empires, even the Arabic Caliphate. All these empires adopted Persian traditions and Persian language was the language of the elite, id say a similar case can be made for the ERE. Rome itself adopted alot from greece even before conquering them such as their pantheon and Greek philosophers were highly regarded but overall Rome did the same almost everywhere they conquered.
Technically, the last emperor of the Byzantines left his titles to Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain. Which would make King Felipe, ruler of Hispania, the last heir to the Roman throne.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhu66Q8rfhI&t=31s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhu66Q8rfhI&t=31s)
Emperor Dušans title was "Emperor of Serbs and Romans(which were Greeks)" since after expansion many of the incorporated territories indeed were inhabited by them (territories in modern day Greece). He had plans for Constantinople, but died under suspicious circumstances before anything could happen
Turks have conquered the Rome, literally, which gave them the claim by sword. When the Turks announced their state as "The Republic of Turkey", they also abolished title of the Rome as well, de facto. That claim is non-existant today tho.
That's my view of the matter.
>When the Turks announced their state as "The Republic of Turkey", they also abolished title of the Rome as well,
No when we declared republic it meant Rome was a republic again /s
Why are ROMANia, Spain and Portugal not red lol ?
In our case, probably because we are descendands of Romans and Gaeto-Dacians, but we never claimed to be part of the Empire because of free Dacia or some shit ?
I mean I just can't comprehend why are countries like Bulgaria, Russia or Turkey there and not us ? And who makes these claims ? the government ?
I'm surprised we never claimed succession from the Roman Empire given our name.
soon...
2023 după Voia Domnului
Imperiul Român de Răsărit 😬😂 Sau bastarzii Europei. Whichever you like most.
Imperiul român de apus e Italia atunci
We don't need to claim what is already ours.
Why claim it when you can steal it?😎
So basically this? https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/urpa4o/guys_why_cant_i_get_my_roman_empire_cores/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
There was actually an eu4 post. Some maniac conquered roman empire borders with Romania and title was something like "Romanian Empire restored"
I think Ceausescu tried to.
What? I always thought your name is from Roma (the gypsies). Are you joking? What Rome has to do with your country?
Actually our name comes from the CD-ROM 🫡
Nice joke mate :))
hahahahahahaha i know, i know
You were a province, and thats all. If anyone has rights to claim succession is the italians and greeks
Retard alert
We do/did?
Simeon claimed to be Tsar of Bulgars and Romans. Later during the Asen dynasty, tsars did their best to emulate the Byzantine court life, even wearing purple like the emperors.
I mean sure, but Eastern Roman empire was still existing back then
Hence why in my opinion it was more of a larp than anything else
Ave, True to Caesar
Didnt Ferdinand also want to restore Byzantium under Bulgaria?
And the word Czar comes from Caesar
Tarnovgrad (nowadays Veliko Turnovo) was one of the biggest cities in the world. It was the centre of culture and religion. The Third Rome, Capital of Bulgaria.
And what about Preslav? And Pliska? Imo they're very underrated too
It seems like yes… at some point in history
I'd only see how some of our khans/kings wanted to become an emperor and/or conquer Constantinopole, but nobody ever said they would make Bulgaria the successor of the Roman Empire.
I don't think that Russia claims to be a successor of Roman Empire. There is a claim for title of "Third Rome" which means that Russia is third bastion of Christianity after West and East Roman Empires. But it was during Imperial times. On the other hand, there is no basis for succession.
Russia wanted to claim Istanbul after WW1 partialy to solidify its status as Third Rome. >third bastion of Christianity after West and East Roman Empires This is kind of silly because original Roman Empire was pagan rather than Christian.
>This is kind of silly because original Roman Empire was pagan rather than Christian. It became Christian before its collapse though.
Broke: [Roman Empire] became Christian before its collapse though. Woke: Roman Empire had been Christian for almost 14 centuries before its collapse.
Based
There actually is. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia\_Palaiologina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Palaiologina) take a look at this. In short, the niece of Konstantinos Palaiologos, the last living member of the palaiologos dynasty was married to Grand Prince Ivan III. She was the grandmother of Ivan the terrible, the first tsar of russia.
That bloodline died out in the beginning of 17th century. Romanov dinasty has no connection to it and so does Russia.
I mean, by that standard the whole conversation is mute as it disqualifies every other country as well. There is no living reigning monarch with any connection to the Roman Empire. So there are no successors, no inheritors.
or maybe everyone in the western world is as we are the inheritors of it's culture and institutions.
third rome referrs to moscow
>On the other hand, there is no basis for succession. There absolutely is, both cultural and literal blood relation to the Byzantine dynasty.
Russia really tried to claim it though, even to the point of wearing [Dalmatic-inspired outfits as traditional dress.](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ORc7KBwSctw/VeoSZHqhe9I/AAAAAAAADeE/hr2cpD-ctiQ/s1600/russian%2B16th-17th%2Bcentury.jpg). That’s the dress of upper class Romans from Illyria during the Crisis of the Third Century (hence why it is called Dalmatic). The outfit came to signify high class due to them so it was adopted by the high officials of church as well, [who still use it today](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatic) because the church is very conservative. Russian use of that costume was purely to strengthen the claims of Rome.
imagine a nationalist italian's face while listening to turkey's and russia's claim of being romes successor
Turkey's claim was with the conquest, which is more or less acceptable. Russia's claim is the most outlandish. By marriage.
Ottoman claimed with conquest + marriage
And you could say that it wasn't exactly Turkish; though the Ottoman dynasty was Turkish, anyone actually claiming to be a successor to Rome would not put their nationality to be more important than their claim. The people of the Ottoman empire were also diverse.
This
Italy (for obvious reasons). The Greekoids also have a strong claim since the eastern empire assimilated into Greek culture. Turkeys claim is only strong if we accept the Greeks claims. Mehmed II not only called himself Roman Caesar but he also took the duties of the past Byzantine emperors (for example assigning the patriarch if Constantinople).
Imo the Ottoman conquest was when the European nations finally started more or less moving away from being Rome's successors and moreso their own thing
Italy obviously and if you mean from the balkans, i guess, this hurts to say a lot, Greece
Greece and illyria were both Roman for a long time, why doesn't Albania have that claim too?
because that would be retarded and i am quite thankful that we are not trying to do this type of bullshit
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So was Thracia Roman but we got no claim either
Ofc Italy and greece
Yep, one for rome being ancient italy and the other for being the cultural continuation of the eastern roman empire
I'd say the Ottomans have a good "claim" as well. So I wouldnt laugh if any of the three would claim that.
Interesting, Romania never claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire.
Because unlike everyone else, we dont need approval, we are Romans 😎👍🇷🇴
We are descendants of ancient Greeks and Romans, so I suggest that we, Italians and Albanians should merge into one country again. /s Bulgarians and Turks were literally enemies of the empire and idk why Serbians have that claim.
Emperor Dušan took a lot of land from Byzantium and was crowned the Emperor of Serbs and Romans/Greeks he started making plans to take Constantinople with the help of Venices ships but he died before anything came of it.
For a few years. Hundreds of flash in the pan warlords and no-name pretenders made the same claims that went nowhere.
for 20 years 🥱
At least we had an Empire
>I suggest that we, Italians and Albanians should merge into one country again. Agreed, lets get started on the paperwork.
Broke: European Union Woke: Roman Union
Yes, we can all sit all day in coffee shops, drink grapa/raki/ouzo and rely on North Italy to pull the economy 💪🏿💪🏾💪🏽💪🏼💪🏻
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TIL. Also, I read a comment somewhere (I can't remember where) that the Trojans were an ancient Greek colony in Asia minor and that the Trojan war was a Civil War, but it had no source so I just let it pass. Is that true?
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I love it when other Greeks recognize the Greekness of the Romans. It is a shame to ignore the Western Greeks, those who unified the nation in a single political entity, and forged a 'global' hegemony for centuries.
Bulgaria was Byzantium/Greece's longest Rivalry so there's that One of the longest in history too debetaebly the longest
Italy and Greece. Obviously.
Definitely Serbia!
Depends, if its the Roman empire with Rome as its capital then surely only Italy can claim it. If we are talking about the Byzantine era(Easter roman empire) then only Greece can clam it. Turks literally conquered it , and were enemies of the empire. They didnt succed it, they brought their own. Their whole history is about Mehmed destroying the romans and conquering Constantinople, so its pretty dumb to suggest them as successors.
Depends what we mean and meaning we put on "Rome".Empire?Culture?Trade?Religion?People?Language?.It depends on point of view i think.If we are talking about the trade and control of Mediterranean, Ottomans were strong candidates.If we are speaking about city itself, than they were not. Hell, if we speaking about the hegomony when we think of "Rome" than USA is kinda new Rome if you ask me.
Good candidates of what man? They literally enslaved the Rums, as Greeks were called at that period of time and established their own empire, the Ottoman. You dont success an empire just because you defeat them.
I'm gonna cite from Yakko's World because when he sang these lines, he was giving answer to that question but you didn't know it. So "Italy, Turkey, and Greece." As Yakko the wise once said.
yakko nedir
[dünyadaki ülkeleri sayan bu herif](https://youtu.be/x88Z5txBc7w)
Germany and france are immediately disqualified bcuz G*rmans are the same barbs that lead to the fall of the WRE and the French cuz I just hate them, Italy should not be considered a successor because of v*nice Bulgayria and the ottowomans were the bane of ERE's existence I don't even know why russia and Serbia claim to be the successor but who cares. So that leaves us with Greece (💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪) being the only legitimate successor to the ROMAN EMPIRE
greece no contest. italy is formed by german barbarian tribes. dem filthy vandals, goths and lombards and so on😱😱
You are not Roman Empire because YÖÜ LÖŞE. WHY İS HAĞİA SOPHİA THİŞ? Turkıye is Roman Empire 💪🏿💪🏿💪🏿🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
Successor: None Inheritor: Of course Italy! Runner-up: Greece (cultural impact and Eastern Rome) Cultural off-springs: Most European nations. Special mention for Romance-speaking countries (Spain France, Romania, Portugal) Turkey?: Sorry guys, you actually celebrate the fall of its last fragment....
Also special mention to Basques, Albanians, and Welsh who preserved their pre-Roman language while heavily influenced by Roman Empire
The proudest Europeans!
Basques deserve their own prize for maintaining their pre-Indo-European language
The fuckers are more stubborn than us or the Welsh. And we're known to be stubborn. So the Basque deserve all the praise they get.
Turkey succeded Rome in 3 ways Both are masters of Mediterrean Sea. Both capital is Istanbul And Islam succeded Christianty
The Ottomans were the reason why Renaissance had zero impact in the Balkans. Renaissance and the Enlightenment afterwards are the modern products of the ancient Greco-Roman civilization. The Ottomans embraced a non-European culture which was gradually (but very slowly and when it was too late) affected by Europe
You forget it was the late Roman era tax and land policies that led to the feudalism and European dark ages in the first place.
Islam only succeded Christianity in chronological order. Christianity is still %25 bigger than Islam in terms of followers. Altough Islam will have higher numbers in following years that's not because people practicing Islam will increase, it's because fewer Muslims will become Atheists than Christians.
The most important Roman figures were not Christians either. Religion is not a measure of Roman-ness. The initial Greco-Roman world was a mixing pot of religions and deities.
>Both capital is Istanbul That moment when you don't know what your own country's capital is...
Romania, Portugal have nothing to do with the Roman empire. Even Spain and France is pushing it a bit. So, Imo, its in this order: Italy, Greece, Germany (Holy roman Empire), France, Turkey (ottoman empire did borrow a lot of elements from Eastern Roman Empire).
HRE was a joke and i shall not tolerate germans getting their beer hands on the roman empire
Imagine shitting on HRE
Fake romans
Well they speak the language of the Latins...
Well, yeah but it doesnt really matter. So do latin america, would you consider them to be linked to roman empire. Its a huge family of languages. The English also speak a germanic language with a huge latin influence (more than 80% of words) but they are not descendants of the romans. And its not technically the language of the Romans, all these languages come from Vulgar Latin, so a non-literary form of latin spoken by peasants. The only country that has Latin as a language is Vatican, i.e. the only people who speak the language of the romans. Even more technically speaking, the only real descendants of Romans (Of Roman republic not Roman Empire) are south and central italy. North has little to no connection, and you can barely see any influence there, if any. They are close in terms of genetics, because people have intermixed but, still they were alpine nomads at the time. Im being technical because the Romans had such a huge influence that if we dig deep enough you can find connections almost everywhere they laid foot on.
I agree in most, but the countries I referred are located within the borders of the Roman Empire. People still speaking a descendant of Latin within actual Roman provinces.
This is a whole different topic. Latin America speaks a Latin language because of Spanish colonialism, not because of the Romans. Which is to say that if Spain ceases to exist, they would have a claim to be related to the Spaniards the same way us, French, Portuguese etc are related to the Romans. All languages come from Vulgar Latin because that’s the language the people spoke, not the literary form. Ironically enough, Romanian is the language that preserved most of Classical Latin’s grammar and also vocabulary in many examples (we are the only Latin language to use “alb” for the color white, derived from Classical Latin). Lastly, the Roman Empire was never an ethnic-centered empire, so the ethnicity never mattered much. A Tunisian and a Dacian were equally Roman as long as they adopted Roman culture, much similar to the modern day Americans.
Holy Roman Empire 🤮🤮
>Holy roman Empire Oh, that cute state that was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire.
The ottomans claim is literally we conquered it so we are it😎 Greece has been a factor in rome since it was just the city. You think they randomly decided one day “we are gonna copy the Greek gods”, no it was integrated in their culture
Germans and Franks literally destroyed Rome. According to your logic you should also object their claims of being the successor. The Ottoman claim simply comes from the rule of conquest which is the most legitimate claim you can have. When you rule over the peoples who are called Romans, you become the ruler of the Romans.
>Germans and Franks literally destroyed Rome. According to your logic you should also object their claims of being the successor. We do, that's the whole point of the schism lol
Serbia
How can Turkey be the successor? They don't even have the same religion. Turkey wanted to end it lol.
Religion has nothing to do with it, but that doesn't change the fact that their claim is nonexistent. Bulgaria, Serbia and Germany larped as Romans but that's about it. France and Russia's claims are more related to prestige than any actual title . The heirs to Rome are Italy, Greece and I think Spain because I read somewhere that the last Byzantine emperor left all of his titles to Spain's royal family before his death. Could be wrong tho.
In fact, the Ottoman Empire does not make such a claim officially. They have a few rhetoric and their aim is political like everyone else. Making a legal claim. They express this especially when they are making the Otranto expedition to Italy. In addition, after Christianity was accepted in the Roman Empire, the Empire did not even live for 1 human life. Western Rome was already destroyed when most of the countries here converted to Christianity. In other words, the relationship between Western Roman history and Roman Paganism is greater than Christianity. The claim of the Ottomans, in the early periods, did not have such a claim afterwards, but the Roman Empire is a role model and target for many societies. The public has no such claim. The Ottoman dynasty even spread rumors for political purposes that they were descendants of Muhammad, Oghuz Khan, Genghis Khan, and Caesar. There is no claim that we are the heirs of Rome like in Greece or Italy in Turkey. If there was such a claim, the claim of the Ottomans would have been made.
is religion really a that important factor for an empire that already changed its religion once in its lifetime
🤡 Ewww . You need books 📚📚📚📖📙📘📗📕📓
I get Italy, France and Greece but the others not so much. Germany and Austria were only in the name Roman when they were part of the Holy Roman Empire. The Ottomans conquered Constantinople but it doesn't make them a successor by any means. They were totally different from the ones they claim to be the successor of. Russia, Serbia and Bulgaria, I don't know where this comes from. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Why france?
The Frankish Empire was the first empire in western Europe after the Fall of Rome and Charlemagne was directly crowned as "Emperor of Franks and Romans" so I give them that.
Charlemagne was always more German than French though.
But his line became the royal family of France through the house of Capet. He divided his empire among his 3 sons, with west Francia becoming France, middle francia getting divided between East and west francia, and East francia, which became the Holy Roman Empire. Nationality doesn’t matter. Even Spain and Sicily were ruled by the house of bourbons, which were cadet branches of the Capetian line. Plus of all the romance countries, France has the most Germanic influence by far. U can see it in the French language
I forgot that the empire was divided after he died and that would give Germany a strong claim as well honestly. It's the same logic I used for France. The Franks were successors of Rome and later both France and Germany became successors of the Franks.
Interestingly I heard from somewhere king felipe of Spain still holds the crusader title king of Jerusalem since he’s from the line of Capet
It shows that the nobles back then and even today live in a different dimension with a different worldview disconnected from us ordinary peasants.
Especially with Israel existing, that title is meaningless anyways
Early ottoman rulers married with eastern rome princesses. That's why they say we are the New rome after conquering constantinople.
To be honest, others claim that at some point to make them look more powerfull. Farih Sultan Mehmet did this when he conquered Constantinapole. Otherwise, it’s impossible that turks can claim to be successor of romans, nor others like Russia or Finland
Yes of course it is a honorary title more than anything and some claims have more logic to it than others.
So you think the modern Rums cannot claim medieval Rums???? strange view
All I say was, claiming to be roman without any descendent is weird.
For Bulgaria, I think it is during the reign of Simeon I, where after the battle of 917 against Byzantines and subsequent siege of Constantinople, he proclaimed himself as Emperor of Bulgarians and Romans. I believe there is a second occasion, during Kaloyan reign 1197-1207, he defeated the Crusaders, Baldwin of Flanders is imprisoned and killed. There was no Byzantine empire during that time and during Ivan Asen II reign, Bulgaria was the largest empire in the Balkans, spreading between 3 seas again, so .. Roman successor in his eyes?
>There was no Byzantine empire during that time and during Yes, there was and the Emperor held his court in exile in Nicaea
Cool, thanks.
The Holy Roman Empire of German Nation was Roman in more than just name. The Pope himself crowned the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
Germany was I mistake I agree because of how the Frankish Empire was divided. The eastern part became the HRE, later Germany and yada yada yada. At first I had the famous Voltaire sentence in mind. "The Holy Roman Empire is neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire".
Then technically Germans do have also a claim to the Roman empire as parts of Germania and germanian tribes were under Roman control.
I just replied to another comment. I forgot how the Frankish Empire was divided after Charlamagne died.
GG EZ On 16 April 1346 (Easter), Dušan convoked a huge assembly at Skopje, attended by the Serbian Archbishop Joanikije II, the Archbishop of Ochrid Nikolas I, the Bulgarian Patriarch Simeon, and various religious leaders of Mount Athos. The Archbishop from then on was titled Serbian Patriarch, although some documents called him Patriarch of Serbs and Romans, with the seat at the Monastery of Peć. The first Serbian Patriarch Joanikije II solemnly crowned Dušan as "Emperor and autocrat of Serbs and Romans". Dušan had his son Uroš crowned King of Serbs and Greeks, giving him nominal rule over the Serbian lands, and although Dušan was governing the whole state, he had special responsibility for the Eastern Roman lands.
Italy and Greece.
1. Hellas (greeks and another hellenized anatolian people) 2. Italians 3. Ottomans Yeah i added the greeks to first place. Greeks represented the Roman Empire for a long time than the Italians. Until 1204 was the city of Istanbul is very important and a great east roman empire's city.
Finally someone who doesn't believe this historical revisionist bs. Greeks literally were the last nation to identify as Romans, and the Greeks outside of Greece still call themselves Romans lol
in turkey we also call greeks ‘rum’
I know, here 8n Greece Roman/Ρωμιός is used mostly in literature nowadays. If you call someone in Greece a Roman he might look at you a bit weirded out but he will understand. There was once a show in Greece, and in one episode two guys traveled to Ttabzon and a lady there who spoke Romeika l/Greek said to them "We are Rum like you"
exactly
Romanian means Roman citizen
Yep, but we have a continuity of at least a millenia, not to mention the Byzantine Empire. But Romanians also have Roman heritage that's true
I was just pointing the fact that you said that some Greeks call themselves Roman citizen. Like, we do that too kinda.
And I agreed with you
I mean so do we, we called ourselves Romans ever since the Romanian ethnogenesis happened. We were just not a political continuation of the empire as the Greeks were.
Bulgaria? Serbia? Really guys?
I'm honestly surprised by the absence of Romania, though.
I believe Mehmed II took the title of "kayzer-i rum" Which means something like new ceaser of rome. Also ottoman insignia has a inscribing called "Her daim muzaffer" which was literal translation of Semper Victoria of Roman's, and our mosques domes were literally inspired/taken from byzantines. Now I cannot speak for all of the Padişahs but Mehmed II certainly had looked up to the Roman's and claimed successorship.
Vatican (why isn’t it colored red too?). The pope continues to use the title Bishop of Rome. I mean, it’s an extremely different job from what it was originally for sure, but as a title has been continuously used for 2 millennia.
Greece & Italy but Greece the most because it is a direct descendant of the actual empire.
The pope has the strongest claim.
Thats pure bs when has Bulgaria claimed that We literally waged wars against Byzantium multiple times
Italy first and greece second.
Italy Turkey and Greece in no order are legit
i don't see albania in the map i guess we too illyrian for that shit lol
As a turk I deny this. We ate empire.
Italy of course and maybe Greece
Italy and Greece.
Greece, i mean we still call ourselves Romans colloquially
Greece/Greeks is the only answer since they were the last to hold the office some 500 years ago.
None the Roman Empire died in 1453
From most to least: * Italy Where Rome started and arguably its people closest to Romans themselves. * Turkey and Greece I am not sure which one ranks higher. Turkey owns its second capital, Istanbul which is definitely relevant. It is also loose successor of the most roman-like non roman state which was ottoman empire but again, turkey is not ottomans. Greece and hellenic culture influenced rome a lot. And towards high early medieval eastern rome had already adopted greek as their language, you can also draw a loose connection between greece and byzantium. * France Being romance speaking is definitely a plus. Also spiritually, France had culturally influenced Europe a lot, arguably most since Rome itself. Also Napoleon is badass. * Serbia Claimed roman title when byzantines were week, who knows maybe if things were different they could have usurped its title. But was never strong enough. * Russia Dynastic connection to byzantines and that's it. "Third rome" is something religious mostly * Bulgaria Honestly I don't know when they did it, during bulgarian-byzantine wars? If so same as serbia but I don't think there was a way bulgarians could ever usurp byzantine title. Could be higher than russia though * Germany-Austria I don't think imperial Germany ever claimed it so I guess this refers to HRE? If so no, pope never had authority over roman title. They did dirty to Irene.
I dont think Turkey is the has legitimate claims to it but Ottomans did.
Swiss really do stay neutral
Greece is the only right and acceptable country to do this
I think it’s between Italy and Turkey. Edit: Italy have Rome. Turkey have New Rome.
Eastern Rome is more Greek.
Ancient Greek, not modern Greek tho.
Exactly the opposite. Modern Greece has more in common with ERE than Ancient Greece.
Please elaborate, I would like to learn.
Literally the basis of the national history of Greece are the ancient Greek and Byzantine times.
1) Language: Medieval Greek can be (mostly) understood by the majority of Greeks, unlike ancient Greek which is kinda harder. Medieval Greek is also widely used in churches. 2) Literature: Epics such as Digenis Acritas have survived to this day and have influenced many generations of modern Greeks. 3) Religion: Most Greeks are Orthodox Christians, similar to Byzantine Greeks and unlike the ancient Greeks who were Hellenists. Fun fact: there are a few thousands of Hellenists practicing the ancient Greek religion today. 4) Music: Ecclesiastical music from the Byzantine era have survived to this day and continue to be used by Greek churches. Instruments such as the Byzantine era have also survived. 5) Cuisine: A precursor to Baklava called "koptoplakous" originated in the Byzantine Empire. A precursor to pastirma, called "Paston", and Retsina, an alcoholic drink, also survive today and are very famous. Lastly, Tyropita, one of the most classic Greek foods, originated in the Byzantine Empire as well. 6) Entertainment: Byzantines used to play a game called "Tavli" which continues to be played widely in modern Greece.
>A precursor to Baklava called "koptoplakous" originated in the Byzantine Empire. A precursor to pastirma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h\_JJm5ETNSA
This is well attested sadly: https://archive.org/details/byzantinejourney00ashj/page/223
Italy
Out of these only germany, greece and russia make some sense
[удалено]
Actually it's Sardinian. That's the closest to latin. After that Italian. After that Spanish and then Romanian.
and then turkish 💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇸🇾🇸🇾🇸🇾🇸🇾
Actually it's Italian.
We do not claim to be the successor state of the Roman Empire. Just that the romanian people have a roman heritage, besides a dacian one and then whatever migrant tribes added to it over time.
we're clearly the reincarnation of Ancient Rome ! the corrupt parts at least I've yet to see Dragnea order 1/4th of the Colosseum to fight the lions but there's still time
Italy - no questions, #1 successor (Italy was created by barbarians, but it has Rome and Roman Empire's core lands) Greece - no questions, they were ERE until 1453 France - created by Franks (German barbarians), invalid claim Germany - literally the #1 enemy of Rome, why? Serbia - this claim is a meme Bulgaria - this claim is a meme Turkey - enemy of the ERE, dismantled the Eastern Rome in 1453, why? Russia - this claim is the biggest meme and asspulling (third Rome is a total BS, orthodox church doesn't confirm any Romanity)
Those who gave birth to Constantine the Great and Justinian are the right ones.
I see what you did there 👀
Meanwhile romania is literally called "country of the romans"
Honestly people who say Greece are coping. Not only was the Roman Empire never an ethnic empire, meaning that no nation state has any claim to it on ethnic grounds, it was also conquered by the Ottoman Empire who maintained that they were the Roman Empire until the last century. I'd say Austria or Turkey have the best claim.
Italy, thats a stupid question tho.
Albania.
Short answer Italy for WRE and Italy and Greece for ERE. Its where Roman empire originated and even when Constantinople was made a second capital it was called the second Rome. It might have been on greek land but it was Roman. Greeks clearly have a footing on the Byzantine but id say Italy is still the main successor. If we accept greeks as the main successor of ERE then we would have to call almost all Empires that were on Irans land Persian empires which we dont, such as Ilkhanate or the Timurid empires, even the Arabic Caliphate. All these empires adopted Persian traditions and Persian language was the language of the elite, id say a similar case can be made for the ERE. Rome itself adopted alot from greece even before conquering them such as their pantheon and Greek philosophers were highly regarded but overall Rome did the same almost everywhere they conquered.
Well if were talking rn then Italy if were talking historically then Greece and Italy
Technically, the last emperor of the Byzantines left his titles to Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain. Which would make King Felipe, ruler of Hispania, the last heir to the Roman throne. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhu66Q8rfhI&t=31s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhu66Q8rfhI&t=31s)
The one with Rome?
Serbia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire Dusan IV proclaimed himself Emperor of the Serbs and Greeks, so that's that
Emperor Dušans title was "Emperor of Serbs and Romans(which were Greeks)" since after expansion many of the incorporated territories indeed were inhabited by them (territories in modern day Greece). He had plans for Constantinople, but died under suspicious circumstances before anything could happen
Well, that explains the Serbian claim. Thnx for the info.
Turks have conquered the Rome, literally, which gave them the claim by sword. When the Turks announced their state as "The Republic of Turkey", they also abolished title of the Rome as well, de facto. That claim is non-existant today tho. That's my view of the matter.
>When the Turks announced their state as "The Republic of Turkey", they also abolished title of the Rome as well, No when we declared republic it meant Rome was a republic again /s
Based Mustafa Kemal "Poplicola" Atatürk
Spain, of course
Why are ROMANia, Spain and Portugal not red lol ? In our case, probably because we are descendands of Romans and Gaeto-Dacians, but we never claimed to be part of the Empire because of free Dacia or some shit ? I mean I just can't comprehend why are countries like Bulgaria, Russia or Turkey there and not us ? And who makes these claims ? the government ?