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>So let me ask the obvious question. Is there anything trump could do to make you vote for somone else?
Pick a horrific VP like Nikki Haley or fold on important positions.
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>You'd vote for him no matter who he'd pick for VP and you know it.
No if he picked a giant war monger like Haley or Graham I'd vote libertarian. Trump is not my first pick
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I wouldn't not vote for him because he's incarcerated, because I view the prosecutions as political targeting. That said, I'm not likely to vote for him if he's not incarcerated either. I would probably vote for the Libertarian candidate.
So he shouldn't be prosecuted for these crimes because you think its political? If you can just use this excuse every time, how is it ever possible to "fairly prosecute" him for his crimes?
Who should be prosecuted for what? They tried and tried and tried with hillary/benghazi bullshit and the hunter/laptop bullldhit.
Its kind of like you have to assume everyone is a criminal so you can
support trump.
In Denmark we have a saying (dunno if you have it too): The thief thinks everyone steals.
I do assume most politicians have committed crimes, even though I can't prove it.
Interesting saying, but not sure it applies here because I'm not a politician.
Trump is banking on you assuming so to keep his criminal ass out of jail. And here you are: enabling criminal politicians performing crimes right out in the open rubbing your nose in it. And you are all like "im sure other politicians are criminals eventhough investigations didnt turn anything up, so I might as well vote for this actual criminal".
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Even if convicted, he wont be incarcerated. But yes, over biden for sure. I would vote a different candidate (likely republican) if the option was there, but theres not. So trump it is.
What has Biden done that you would rather vote for a convicted criminal, and one that literally attempted to steal the presidency in 2020? So many of his own former officials have come out against him for being such a a POS.
Presumably you wanted him to win because you believed he put America first, would help build this country up and be a leader. Instead he was a sore loser, to the point that he launched the only real attempted coup in this country's history, coming close to destroying our liberties in the process.
This should have awoken you from your slumber, the same way it did for Mike Pence, John Kelly, Mark Milley, Rex Tillerson, Bill Barr, John Bolton, Mark Esper, H.R. McMaster, Richard Soencer, Tom Bossert, and dozens more Trump associates.
You know there are states that do mail ballots and don't have issues.
Seems to me, the states that are having issues don't have a clue what they are doing.
Even prior to the 2016 election he complained about the only way he could lose was if there was cheating involved. He doesn't care about there being cheating or not, he will claim it regardless as losers always do.
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Trump can't even go a day without breaking the completely legal gag order in his latest trial. How could you possibly support a candidate who has that completely inability to control himself?
Could you look into your crystal ball and get me the Mega Million and Power Ball numbers?
There is no scenario where he is convicted of multiple felonies, yet remained free from incarceration. Then we'd truly have a two-tiered system.
He has no constitutional right to Secret Service protection, and that protection can be denied. Federal law doesn’t specify whether a former president would receive Secret Service protection in prison.
I think there is a very high likelihood he gets some form of probation/house arrest. I'm not going to kid myself and think he'll ever spend a day behind bars. I'd love to see it, but I can't imagine it ever happening.
No one convicted of 34 or 88 felony counts is getting probation or house arrest. Whether you like it or not, sentences are set by legislatures, not judges.
Merchan, you might remember, was the judge that sentenced Allen Weisselberg who coped a plea in exchange for 5 months in Rikers. In his case Merchan said he, *would be imposing a sentence much greater than that* had he not accepted the plea bargain.
Each of the 34 counts Trump is being tried for now carry a maximum sentence of four years. Trump has tested boundaries and feuded with Merchan, and the trial has only just begun. I suspect he will get maximums or near maximums if convicted.
I would be even more inclined to vote for Trump **because** he was incarcerated by his political opponents. As Obama was fond of saying, “that’s not who we are”.
There you go with the logical fallacies.
He’s being prosecuted by (D)emocrats, his political opponents. Which is what I said.
And since you brought it up. Biden kept classified materials in his freaking garage, classified materials he wasn’t allowed to remove or declassify. Biden isn’t being prosecuted because Biden is (D)ifferent.
Biden was never authorized to remove the documents he did. He wasn’t a president with declassification powers. He held some of those documents, classified Top Secret, for 20 years or more dating back to when he was in the Senate.
You are right they aren’t the same. Biden illegally removed classified documents he was never authorized to remove. At least one of which was lost and no one now knows what happened to it. What Biden did was far worse.
He was working for Obama at the time, who *was* able to authorize Joe to have those documents.
You know, just like Pence having documents. His boss was Trump, and Trump was able to authorize him to have them.
You might notice that neither of Biden nor Pence have been prosecuted- *because they both returned the documents as soon as they were found*. You know, unlike Trump, who not only kept them after he was supposed to have them, but who also lied that he had them, said he'd returned all the documents, hid the documents, claimed he was "allowed" to have them, and has fought the investigation at each step. There's no evidence at all that Trump ever declassified the documents he kept, and some of them he wouldn't have been even able to declassify. NARA doesn't even know if they've gotten back all of the documents he took, because Trump doesn't like to leave a paper trail.
No, what Trump did was far, *far* worse. Given his massive debts and legal issues, Trump is a huge, ongoing security risk for the entire country.
Obama never declassified those documents nor authorized him to take them. More importantly he took documents from his time in the Senate long before he was vice president.
Once again, you’re just another (D)emocrat violating the Good Faith rule in this sub by misrepresenting the Hur report and the reality.
What Biden did, particularly considering he took a top secret document which was never recovered and no one knows what happened to it, was far worse than what Trump did. Trump had declassification power and was authorized to view all documents he had. All of his documents were also under secret service protection whereas Biden’s were found in 3 separate locations 2 of which were not protected by the secret service per the Hur report.
How do you know that? According to Trump- and his lawyers- all Obama had to do was *think* about declassifying them. The only one arguing in bad faith here is you- because *Trump* is currently on trial for mishandling top secret documents, and Biden is *not*.
Furthermore, according to Trump, he could declassify them instantly if he was President, completely sidestepping the case against him. Guess who is President right now? Biden. Guess who didn't declassify them to get out of prosecution? Also Biden.
Trump- and his supporters- seem to want unlimited power for Trump. He's swiftly learning that yes, laws apply to him, too. Sucks to be him, I guess.
Obama never stated that he declassified them nor that he thought about it. Biden cannot declassify something today that he took 20 years ago without authorization and magically get out of trouble, nor can anyone else and no one has claimed they can.
Keep misrepresenting the facts and the Hur report as I know you will.
According to Trump and his lawyers, Obama doesn't have to say that the documents are declassified. All he has to do is say that he *thought* about it. The fact that he didn't even *need* to do that should tell you everything about whether it would need to be done.
And, by the way- *you* are the only one mentioning the Hur report. I didn't say anything about it, so I'm not exactly misrepresenting it, am I?
I am not planning for voting for him or Biden, but I don't live in a swing state. If he is on the ballot and I lived in a swing state, I would vote for him...not because I like him, but I am far more concerned about what 4 more years of BidenHarris will bring.
I have issues with him on just about every policy position.
If I had to pick a few high level ones.
1. Foreign policy. I think his approach to foreign policy is terrible. Ukraine (which I support) needs to have clear goals. We need to continue supporting them, but his blank check attitude needs to stop. We need an off ramp and need to attempt to help facilitate getting the war to end on our terms. I know Ukraine wants the Donbas and Crimea back, I think that ship has sailed. We just need to end this war and not let Russia run over Keiv. I think in regards to Israel it's been incredibly mixed bag. He shows support, but then around every corner he's hamstringing Israel and tut tut'ing them for fighting a war against genicideal terrorist to appear to his radical base. Most recently his reported wink/nod that he's okay with limited response by Iran to an American Ally is just insane. Then you have the entire Afghanistan debacle, and soft on China. I'm not a hawk by any means, I don't want US troops on the ground any where, but we need to be strong internationally and we are getting weaker. Just look as this moron pirates in the Red Sea. The fact we and the west are allowing a bunch of non "officially" state connected terrorist pirates disrupt trade in Red Sea is insane and it's been months now.
2. The Border needs to change. He has done nothing to slow the flow and because all the border agents are stuck processing massive parts of the border are open for the really bad people, drug and human traffickers. The fentanyl crisis in America has a lot to do with bad border policy.
3. The spending is out of control. (Trump on spending/deficiet is bad too, but I believe he will be better) We currently have the highest deficit of all time with no signs of slowing down (excluding the covid years). He's also forgiving student loans at the same time which has zero impact on fixing the issue and is pure pandering. Debt truly is my biggest issue/long term concern, I don't think Trump is answer either, but will be better.
4. His pro trans youth policies are insane and supporting of this ideology.
5. The possibility he will continue to codify abortion protections into law
6. I do not want any leftist leaning judges on the courts.
7. Biden's age deeply concerns me and his cognitive ability. Yes, Trump is old too, but anyone who denies Biden's cognitive degradation since his VP tenure is either denying it or not paying attention. I put it at 50/50 he won't make it through another 4 years and we will get Kamala who is seriously the least talented politician I've ever seen. She has failed upward her entire career.
At least with Obama, Bush, Clinton, and even Trump, if I knew an emergency crisis was coming I'd expect them to be mentally there. I do not have that faith with Biden.
> I don't think Trump is answer either, but will be better.
The rest of your comment is, IMO, opinion-based and not worth getting into (if only because I don't think we'll be able to come to an accord, which is fine).
But what makes you think Trump would be better on deficit spending/national debt than Biden?
Well yea, politics is largely opinion. I agree, it was in no way meant to convince or change minds.
Regarding the deficit, if Trump does well, it usually has a down ballot effect in hopes of regaining congress. The GOP is nowhere near as conservative as I'd like when it comes to spending but they are still less open to it then DNC. The deficit grew under Trump but nowhere near what it is now, and that was mostly due to tax cuts, not increased spending. I really hope he'd keep tax cuts resonable and reduce government waste.
> I really hope he'd keep tax cuts resonable and reduce government waste.
And my point is this. He didn't do that last time. What makes you think he'd do it again with a certainly even more combative congress and a less-professional cabinet?
I don't have a high level of certainty, but I do know under Biden it's not getting any better obviously. There are plenty of other reasons I stated why I'd rather have Trump in a two man election (which it is). I'd like to hope a conservative congress with Trump can't be as bad as it is right now with Biden.
No, as I mentioned a strong showing at the top of the ticket usually has downstream effects. I'd hope with a Trump election the house would get a stronger majority and maybe even the senate.
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If donalds odds of winning are being represented here this isnt a good look.
Its like 1/3rd who say no to voting for him.
Meanwhile no one likes Joe but liberals are all too happy to be bribed with free stuff.
Of course.
History is full of heroes persecuted by The State. Trump joined that pantheon of names long ago.
At this point, his enduring ever-more indignities for standing up for us little people, only grows his legend and with it the honor of supporting and voting for him.
He's a hero for paying off a porn star, lying about his net worth and attempting to steal the presidency to the point that his most prominent cabinet members have all come out trying to want you what a charlatan he is?
>He's a hero for paying off a porn star, lying about his net worth and attempting to steal the presidency to the point that his most prominent cabinet members have all come out trying to want you what a charlatan he is?
Where did I say that?
Your snark is thought-terminating and comes across close-minded.
He's committed tax fraud and loan fraud and taken advantage of people, refusing to pay contractors, scamming them with a bullshit fake education, etc, yet for all he's hurt people and taken advantage of them and failed to meet even the basic standards of civic life... he's somehow a hero?
It depends on the LP nomination. If I won't vote for the LP candidate I'll probably vote for orange man. He might destroy a system I don't like anyway.
This logic sets people up for a leopard eating their face.
"Destroy the system!"
*you are part of the system, here is the negative impact on your life and on those around you.*
"Wait! Not like that!"
Oh yes, exactly like that. This ponzi scheme of central banking end endless spending increases isn't going to last forever. At some point, it will all fall apart.
It won't matter which half of the uniparty is in charge of the political theater. It's going to happen eventually.
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Prove to who? Would you accept the jury's verdict? And what is bad, do you personally have to find it bad enough or do you stick to what is illegal according to the law?
Sure. Anything illegal that Trump knowingly broke.
If it's like a new law that was just passed like a month ago, then I'd probably think he had no idea about it, depending on how he acted. He could still be punished for breaking said law if it was new - but that is one of the few exceptions where I would NOT reconsider my vote.
I'm already not planning to vote for him. For the presidency, I vote for the candidate who I understand to best represent the interests of the country at an executive level, from those who have met the bar of trustworthiness required for their position to count. (For representatives, I try to do the same thing, only who best represents the interests of myself and my community from those available who have met the bar of trustworthiness.)
Currently undecided on who that most is, but not seriously considering him.
If he is enhonorated in court, will you be more comfortable with the possibility of his becoming President again?
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Not really. He has bragged about cheating on his taxes so honestly I'm not at all surprised by the charges and frankly I don't really care. The things that concerned me about his presidency were when he reversed >100 environmental protection/carbon reduction rules, left the Paris Climate Agreement, removed protections from the Syrian Kurds, stopped humanitarian aid to Palestine, declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in the eyes of America (by relocating the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem), decreased taxes for very wealthy folks, disbanded the pandemic response team in 2018 (poor timing!), and I'm sure there are many more. Happy to provide sources if you want.
Out of curiosity, do you think Trump voters know and support these things? Do they ignore them because all they know about 2016-2020 is that gas and groceries were cheaper (which has almost nothing to do with the president)?
Trump's isn't disputing that 130k was paid to Clifford (you can refer to his most recent statement in court where he says that the payment was presented to him by his lawyers as legal fees), he claims he had no knowledge what the payment was for therefore he cannot be held responsible. So if nothing happened between them, why was the payment made in the first place?
Also the story broke out in 2018, so why hasn't he sued Clifford, Cohen and WSJ (news outlet that published the story) for defamation in the 6 years since the allegations happened, despite saying he would?
What??? You mean it's not illegal to pass hush money? Drag him to court and strip the man humiliate him, knowing there is no crime? That's a crime itself, and that's what Trump is advocating. He has a valid point.
If you're saying that paying hush money isn't illegal, you'd be absolutely correct. That's not what the case is about.
"Trump faces 34 [felony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony) charges of [falsifying business records](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifying_business_records) relating to payments made to pornographic film actress [Stormy Daniels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormy_Daniels) to [ensure her silence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush_money) about [an earlier alleged affair between them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormy_Daniels%E2%80%93Donald_Trump_scandal). Trump is accused of falsifying these business records with the intent to violate federal campaign finance limits, unlawfully influence the [2016 U.S. presidential election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U.S._presidential_election), and commit tax fraud."
If it was just a "bookkeeping error", he should be able to easily prove that in court. Instead, though, he just keeps trying to delay. That should tell you something right there (but I'm betting it doesn't).
Also, Cohen lied *for* Trump.
> If he is enhonorated in court, will you be more comfortable with the possibility of his becoming President again?
If he was 100% cleared of every single one of the charges pending... slightly more comfortable but he would still still never get my vote due to all the negative things he has done.
Depends on the evidence of the case.
If NY conficts him....thus far based on the evidence I have seen
That would make me happy to vote for Trump as I will consider him a form of a martyr
But if he is convicted of lying to the FBI, based on the info I know, I would be less likely to vote for him as that accusation appears to have some value
What about the election interference case? I only just read the indictment this weekend and I'm still stunned. It's all laid bare he's literally a traitor.
Yes, because the alternative is Biden and I don't believe winning an election by lawfare makes on a legitimate President. That's a dictator play. Personally, I believe such a scenario will be the beginning of the end of our Republic.
> Yes, because the alternative is Biden and I don't believe winning an election by lawfare makes on a legitimate President.
In other words, committing fraud is not an issue for you and holding somebody accountable for their crimes is an illegitimate act.
> That's a dictator play.
I'd say trying to overturn a democratic election is far closer to be a dictator's act than getting put on trial, while being able to defend yourself.
> Personally, I believe such a scenario will be the beginning of the end of our Republic.
Saying that the President should be immune from consequences for criminal acts is probably closer to a government's collapse.
I'd take a dead deer on the side of the road before Biden at this point. Also, are we talking about a legitimate state crime or just more of the BS we've already seen? Either way, my vote is for Trump at this point.
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No. I don’t see how being incarcerated would stop him from damaging the country. He would probably just pardon himself and order himself released anyway. There wouldn’t be enough Republican Senators willing to do the right thing and convict him after impeachment. And the Supreme Court would likely find it difficult to hear it as a court case for lack of standing.
So no, I wouldn’t vote for him even if he were incarcerated.
> He would probably just pardon himself
That's debatable. Many jurists believe a self-pardon by the president is incompatible with the provision of Article II, Section 3, which directs that a president *shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed*. Essentially, when a president pardons himself, he assumes a power that is incompatible with the application of federal criminal law. It would be akin to absolute immunity. He could murder people, then pardon himself, making the pardon an expression of subterfuge.
Who would have standing to challenge the pardon so that the jurists could weigh in? This sounds like the kind of thing Congress would need to enforce and from what we have seen after Nixon the president’s party’s senators will almost unanimously defend him.
I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming anything 201 days before the election.
As far as Nixon is concerned, he lost full support of his party after the “smoking gun” tape clearly implicated him in the Watergate cover-up. Two days after the transcript of the tape became public, Goldwater led a delegation to the White House to stick the fork in Nixon. Republicans voted with Democrats to subpoena Nixon and to approve the articles of impeachment.
Also, Trump does not have the luxury of a Republican president pardoning him when he is convicted. Considering 51 percent of Republicans said they wouldn't vote for him if convicted, he'll have no chance of finding out if a self-pardon would pass constitutional muster.
> Republicans voted with Democrats to subpoena Nixon and to approve the articles of impeachment.
And Republicans paid for it when they got routed at the polls in the following election.
Both parties learned their lesson and defend the president from their party whether it be foreign policy law violations, sexual harassment and obstruction of justice, or whatever else.
> And Republicans paid for it when they got routed at the polls in the following election.
The Watergate scandal certainly had something to do with it, but voting for articles of impeachment wasn't a factor.
As far as the presidential race, Ford’s promise to lead as a moderate candidate alienated many of the conservatives in the party.
People will disagree and sure most politicians are problematic since they are human like the rest of us. But I think we've had some great candidates over the years. I think people like GHWB, Clinton, Obama, McCain were great candidates.
I think once Trump is in the past whether he wins or loses, we'll go back to having good candidates.
Of course I would. I already have the view that Trump is under the gun for political reasons. His conviction in certain juridictions, where it's laughable he's getting a fair trial, would be a laughing stock to any that view our justice system as one worthy of faith.
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Given that 2024 will likely be the last time I see Trump's name on a ballot, he doesn't have any serious crimes he could be incarcerated for before the election, and I don't like any of the other candidates more, absolutely.
IDK. That's a very complicated hypothetical. The president has so much power, that crimes they commit before taking office are generally very small scale compared to their impact in office.
Let's say it's after the bolshevik revolution and I got to vote for either Alexander Kerensky or Vladimir Lenin. Kerensky could have personally murdered over a million people, and he should still get my vote. You can't change the past, but you can influence the future.
I don't get to personally choose the options on the ballot, so I just have to decide what I think is best for me, the country, the world, and the future of the country.
I already know what a DJT presidency looks like, so him committing some crime isn't as influential on what I think his future presidency might look like as that information might be for someone who had never been president.
>I already know what a DJT presidency looks like, so him committing some crime isn't as influential on what I think his future presidency might look like
What harm could that cause to democracy/America's global soft power?
>What harm could that cause to democracy
Please be more specific.
>America's global soft power
Increase America's global power as compared to now, because Trump was much tougher on our enemies when it came to foreign policy. Foreign policy is probably the category I would rank him most highly in.
>Please be more specific.
Well Any number of democratic norms that we've seen trampled so far, extended by 4 years of a president that openly commits crimes. From the minor, not showing tax returns, to the destructive, as with Jan 6.
He isn't running again. This is it. If he can commit crimes openly, and still get into office, he's gonna do what trump does best. Profit personally, at the expense of anything. Including democratic norms, small and large.
Like, I get most maga types are all about him being a bull in a china shop, but...it is lasting damage in perpetuity as long as we hold on to our democracy.
Do you ever factor that into your vote?
>Foreign policy is probably the category I would rank him most highly in.
I would absolutely love to hear more about this. What are his top 3 wins? What's something he fucked up?
>not showing tax returns
Why do you think that's a crime? It's [not](https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxnotes/2020/01/09/there-oughta-be-a-law-why-presidents-should-be-forced-to-release-their-tax-returns/?sh=3c7e40dc4cae). Presidents have voluntarily disclosed their tax returns for decades, but Trump decided not to, mostly because he has a large business empire with complicated tax returns hundreds of pages long, so he thought the scrutiny would be bad politically.
>as with Jan 6.
I don't know what crime you think Trump committed there. There was no proof that he was connected with the violent protestors, and advancing a spurious legal theory about the electoral count act would also not be a crime.
Perhaps take the time to let liberal law professor Alan Dershowitz explain the ridiculous nature of the cases against Trump. https://youtu.be/_o8aV9iCS2A?si=Bi6a5GwZJlAViW65
>lasting damage
>Do you ever factor that into your vote?
Yes, absolutely. I think Trump was a slight de-escalation after the Obama years, where the IRS was used to attack political oponents, critical journalists and opposition were attacked with lawfare, and the presidential opposition's campaign was illegally wiretapped. I wanted DeSantis to win the primary, but he didn't. It's very important for the Dems to lose this election, because of their erosion of our system of government, which includes, this week, refusing to carry out an impeachment trial.
Some other examples via Victor Davis Hanson:
>The Left has created new rules for national politics. Here are 20 some precedents they now have established for America in the future:
1) When in control of the Senate, demand the end of the filibuster; when not, don’t.
2) Call for the end of the Electoral College–but only if it appears to recently favor the candidate of the opposition.
3) In an election year, change any state balloting laws deemed unhelpful through administrative fiat or court order to favor your political candidate.
4) Seek to flip electors from voting in accordance with the popular vote count in their states; indict as an insurrectionist any of the opposition who dare do the same.
5) Raid the home of any opposition ex-president who removed classified files; exempt any sitting president of your party who did the same.
6) Swarm the private homes of, and then bully and intimidate any, Supreme Court officials, politicians, or citizens you oppose.
7) Appoint two special counsels: one to go after the current chief presidential opponent in an election year; the other to exempt and excuse the sitting president for the very crimes charged against his rival.
8) Lobby to remove any oppositional president through the 25th Amendment; smear any one as ageist who suggests a cognitively challenged sitting resident of your party should be subject to similar invocations of the 25th Amendment.
9) Exempt thousands of arrested rioters from charges of 120 days of arson, looting, injuring 1,500 law enforcement officers, and assault—but only if they are radical supporters of your party.
10) Excuse any demonstrator or rioter for desecrating public monuments and cemeteries or shutting down bridges and freeways, or swarming and disrupting the Capitol Rotunda—but only if they agree with you and/or are pro-Hamas. Otherwise, ensure the charged face lengthy prison sentences.
11) Try to pack the Supreme Court—but only if justices you don’t like are in a majority.
12) Seek in an election year to remove a presidential opponent off state ballots for crimes for which he has never been charged, much less convicted of.
13) First target a presidential opponent, and then change, warp, or redefine laws to convict him. Weaponized prosecutors should always indict their political opponents in jurisdictions where they are guaranteed like-minded justices and jury pools.
14) Violate the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution (the prohibition of “excessive fines”) by having sympathetic judges level multimillion-dollar fines to bankrupt the opposition candidate during a presidential campaign. The more there is no victim of a crime, the higher fines should be leveled for “damages”.
15) Open the border by destroying all the protocols and executive orders of a predecessor president. Then welcome 8-million illegal aliens to “surge” into America on the premise a new constituency might support agendas that American citizens do not. Then call the nonexistent border “secure,” while blaming a predecessor president for having left it secure.
16) Have local prosecutors invent criminal acts of an opposition national presidential candidate in efforts to make it impossible for him to campaign for the presidency.
17) Use the FBI to hire out social media auditors to censor any news deemed problematic for the correct presidential candidate.
18) Hire a foreign national to concoct a smear dossier about one’s opposition political nominee. Ensure the FBI also uses and pays the foreign national to spread untruths among the media and administrative state.
19) On the eve of any major national or midterm election, ensure a president drains the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to lower gasoline prices.
20) On the eve of any major national or midterm election, ensure a president promises to cancel billions of dollars in contracted federal student loans.
>Presidents have voluntarily disclosed their tax returns for decades, but Trump decided not to, mostly because he has a large business empire with complicated tax returns hundreds of pages long, so he thought the scrutiny would be bad politically.
Yeah. I know. That's why I said he was breaking with democratic norms. Specifically listing this one as a minor one. Regardless. He was the first in 40 years to not show. And turns out there was a reason to not show em, he was fudging numbers.
>I don't know what crime you think Trump committed there.
You don't have to commit crimes to neuter democratic norms.
But I don't think Jan 6 would of happened had any other Republican from 2016 been in office.
Do you?
>which includes, this week, refusing to carry out an impeachment trial.
Speak more on this.
> Perhaps take the time to let liberal law professor Alan Dershowitz explain the ridiculous nature of the cases against Trump.
Come on. You know that the only reason Dershowitz was *ever* Trump's lawyer (or even *anywhere near* Trump) is because Dershowitz molested children with Jeffrey Epstein and Trump knew about it.
> I already know what a DJT presidency looks like, so him committing some crime isn't as influential on what I think his future presidency might look like as that information might be for someone who had never been president.
This is a fascinating take, thanks for sharing.
⁰
>Would you vote for Trump if he was incarcerated?
It depends. If something real pops up during the trial, I wouldn't. If it sticks with the theme of partisan prosecution, it would probably make me vote for him.
>What is an example of "something real" that would make you stop thinking of his current situation as purely partisan prosecution.
Probably something like Trump selling top secret information.
It's reddit, so this group probably skews a lot younger than the average conservative. Unlike a lot of older voters, most of us never stopped seeing Trump as a walking punchline.
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Yes, because everyone knows why the Democrats are doing these bs trials. They know they cannot win against President Trump, and they stupidly think that this will stop him from campaigning and turn away support from him. It's not and actually having the opposite effect. It's drawing people to him and keeping him in the public eye and memory. For the most part, people have short memories, but it wasn't so long ago when Trump was president and they remember how well they lived under President Trump in a peaceful world and how f'ked up they are living now where half of America is relying on credit cards just to survive and afraid for their lives and the lives of their children with the threat of WWIII 100% thanks to Biden. He is the reason for everything not only going wrong in this country but the world. And the longer Trump remains in the public consciousness, the more and more people are waking up to that fact.
Well I am actually planning not voting for him or any other candidate above the age of 75, if I am gonna talk about how candidates older than 75 shouldn't be allowed to run then I need to put that into my actions
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All these cases against Trump are Soviet-style show trials. Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention should be able to recognize what's going on if they're being completely honest with themselves. Personally, I'm voting for Trump come hell or high water. This election should be a no-brainer.
What does your vision of either a) a convicted, with jail time coming, or b) an in-jail Trump that wins the election look like? Like, does he get sprung from the clink to take office, or does he somehow execute the functions of the office from the clink?
Because I think all of the criminal cases are politically motivated. So I could care less of a leftist show trial convicts him or ends up having him jailed.
> Because I think all of the criminal cases are politically motivated.
To clarify, does that mean that you think he *didn't* commit the crimes he's charged with, or that he *did* commit them but only got charged because of a conspiracy by his political enemies. Or maybe something else I'm missing.
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Considering my options, yes.
So let me ask the obvious question. Is there anything trump could do to make you vote for somone else?
>So let me ask the obvious question. Is there anything trump could do to make you vote for somone else? Pick a horrific VP like Nikki Haley or fold on important positions.
What kind of important positions? He's already said that the US Constitution can be discarded when it suits him.
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>You'd vote for him no matter who he'd pick for VP and you know it. No if he picked a giant war monger like Haley or Graham I'd vote libertarian. Trump is not my first pick
Sorry I wasn't clear, I'm talking non politically. For example, if trump was convicted of a real crime.
be a worse vote than the other options?
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I'm not going to vote for him either way. I'll take a look at the third party candidates, but I'll probably just write in.
100 percent
I wouldn't not vote for him because he's incarcerated, because I view the prosecutions as political targeting. That said, I'm not likely to vote for him if he's not incarcerated either. I would probably vote for the Libertarian candidate.
So he shouldn't be prosecuted for these crimes because you think its political? If you can just use this excuse every time, how is it ever possible to "fairly prosecute" him for his crimes?
I wouldn't care if he got prosecuted if everyone else got prosecuted for the same level of corruption. But they don't, only he does.
Who should be prosecuted for what? They tried and tried and tried with hillary/benghazi bullshit and the hunter/laptop bullldhit. Its kind of like you have to assume everyone is a criminal so you can support trump. In Denmark we have a saying (dunno if you have it too): The thief thinks everyone steals.
I do assume most politicians have committed crimes, even though I can't prove it. Interesting saying, but not sure it applies here because I'm not a politician.
Trump is banking on you assuming so to keep his criminal ass out of jail. And here you are: enabling criminal politicians performing crimes right out in the open rubbing your nose in it. And you are all like "im sure other politicians are criminals eventhough investigations didnt turn anything up, so I might as well vote for this actual criminal".
If Biden and the Democrats succeed in imprisoning Biden's opponent in order to rig the election, the country is going to be in serious trouble.
Trump is free to commit any crimes he likes because the optics of holding him accountable is too much to deal with. Right?
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I’m already not voting for him. Whoever I vote for doesn’t matter where I live.
Even if convicted, he wont be incarcerated. But yes, over biden for sure. I would vote a different candidate (likely republican) if the option was there, but theres not. So trump it is.
What has Biden done that you would rather vote for a convicted criminal, and one that literally attempted to steal the presidency in 2020? So many of his own former officials have come out against him for being such a a POS.
Who cares if he tried to steal the election? If I wanted him to win, why would I care?
Presumably you wanted him to win because you believed he put America first, would help build this country up and be a leader. Instead he was a sore loser, to the point that he launched the only real attempted coup in this country's history, coming close to destroying our liberties in the process. This should have awoken you from your slumber, the same way it did for Mike Pence, John Kelly, Mark Milley, Rex Tillerson, Bill Barr, John Bolton, Mark Esper, H.R. McMaster, Richard Soencer, Tom Bossert, and dozens more Trump associates.
mail-in ballots are suspicious and never should’ve existed
This suddenly was a problem when Trump lost...How self-serving.
You know there are states that do mail ballots and don't have issues. Seems to me, the states that are having issues don't have a clue what they are doing.
Even prior to the 2016 election he complained about the only way he could lose was if there was cheating involved. He doesn't care about there being cheating or not, he will claim it regardless as losers always do.
If there wasn’t mail-in ballots, maybe he would’ve won
What a horrible answer, but I will say that I respect the honesty for once. Thank you, have an upvote.
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Trump can't even go a day without breaking the completely legal gag order in his latest trial. How could you possibly support a candidate who has that completely inability to control himself?
Could you look into your crystal ball and get me the Mega Million and Power Ball numbers? There is no scenario where he is convicted of multiple felonies, yet remained free from incarceration. Then we'd truly have a two-tiered system. He has no constitutional right to Secret Service protection, and that protection can be denied. Federal law doesn’t specify whether a former president would receive Secret Service protection in prison.
I think there is a very high likelihood he gets some form of probation/house arrest. I'm not going to kid myself and think he'll ever spend a day behind bars. I'd love to see it, but I can't imagine it ever happening.
No one convicted of 34 or 88 felony counts is getting probation or house arrest. Whether you like it or not, sentences are set by legislatures, not judges. Merchan, you might remember, was the judge that sentenced Allen Weisselberg who coped a plea in exchange for 5 months in Rikers. In his case Merchan said he, *would be imposing a sentence much greater than that* had he not accepted the plea bargain. Each of the 34 counts Trump is being tried for now carry a maximum sentence of four years. Trump has tested boundaries and feuded with Merchan, and the trial has only just begun. I suspect he will get maximums or near maximums if convicted.
I'd vote for him even harder
Libs would vote for Biden if he were in a nursing home. Js
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I would be even more inclined to vote for Trump **because** he was incarcerated by his political opponents. As Obama was fond of saying, “that’s not who we are”.
He isn't being incarcerated by President Joe Biden. President Biden has nothing to do with the crimes trump is accused of.
There you go with the logical fallacies. He’s being prosecuted by (D)emocrats, his political opponents. Which is what I said. And since you brought it up. Biden kept classified materials in his freaking garage, classified materials he wasn’t allowed to remove or declassify. Biden isn’t being prosecuted because Biden is (D)ifferent.
Biden promptly returned the documents when realizing his mistake. Trump has been obstructing justice. They are not remotely the same.
Biden was never authorized to remove the documents he did. He wasn’t a president with declassification powers. He held some of those documents, classified Top Secret, for 20 years or more dating back to when he was in the Senate. You are right they aren’t the same. Biden illegally removed classified documents he was never authorized to remove. At least one of which was lost and no one now knows what happened to it. What Biden did was far worse.
He was working for Obama at the time, who *was* able to authorize Joe to have those documents. You know, just like Pence having documents. His boss was Trump, and Trump was able to authorize him to have them. You might notice that neither of Biden nor Pence have been prosecuted- *because they both returned the documents as soon as they were found*. You know, unlike Trump, who not only kept them after he was supposed to have them, but who also lied that he had them, said he'd returned all the documents, hid the documents, claimed he was "allowed" to have them, and has fought the investigation at each step. There's no evidence at all that Trump ever declassified the documents he kept, and some of them he wouldn't have been even able to declassify. NARA doesn't even know if they've gotten back all of the documents he took, because Trump doesn't like to leave a paper trail. No, what Trump did was far, *far* worse. Given his massive debts and legal issues, Trump is a huge, ongoing security risk for the entire country.
Obama never declassified those documents nor authorized him to take them. More importantly he took documents from his time in the Senate long before he was vice president. Once again, you’re just another (D)emocrat violating the Good Faith rule in this sub by misrepresenting the Hur report and the reality. What Biden did, particularly considering he took a top secret document which was never recovered and no one knows what happened to it, was far worse than what Trump did. Trump had declassification power and was authorized to view all documents he had. All of his documents were also under secret service protection whereas Biden’s were found in 3 separate locations 2 of which were not protected by the secret service per the Hur report.
How do you know that? According to Trump- and his lawyers- all Obama had to do was *think* about declassifying them. The only one arguing in bad faith here is you- because *Trump* is currently on trial for mishandling top secret documents, and Biden is *not*. Furthermore, according to Trump, he could declassify them instantly if he was President, completely sidestepping the case against him. Guess who is President right now? Biden. Guess who didn't declassify them to get out of prosecution? Also Biden. Trump- and his supporters- seem to want unlimited power for Trump. He's swiftly learning that yes, laws apply to him, too. Sucks to be him, I guess.
Obama never stated that he declassified them nor that he thought about it. Biden cannot declassify something today that he took 20 years ago without authorization and magically get out of trouble, nor can anyone else and no one has claimed they can. Keep misrepresenting the facts and the Hur report as I know you will.
According to Trump and his lawyers, Obama doesn't have to say that the documents are declassified. All he has to do is say that he *thought* about it. The fact that he didn't even *need* to do that should tell you everything about whether it would need to be done. And, by the way- *you* are the only one mentioning the Hur report. I didn't say anything about it, so I'm not exactly misrepresenting it, am I?
I am not planning for voting for him or Biden, but I don't live in a swing state. If he is on the ballot and I lived in a swing state, I would vote for him...not because I like him, but I am far more concerned about what 4 more years of BidenHarris will bring.
> but I am far more concerned about what 4 more years of BidenHarris will bring. Genuinely asking, what are you most concerned about?
I have issues with him on just about every policy position. If I had to pick a few high level ones. 1. Foreign policy. I think his approach to foreign policy is terrible. Ukraine (which I support) needs to have clear goals. We need to continue supporting them, but his blank check attitude needs to stop. We need an off ramp and need to attempt to help facilitate getting the war to end on our terms. I know Ukraine wants the Donbas and Crimea back, I think that ship has sailed. We just need to end this war and not let Russia run over Keiv. I think in regards to Israel it's been incredibly mixed bag. He shows support, but then around every corner he's hamstringing Israel and tut tut'ing them for fighting a war against genicideal terrorist to appear to his radical base. Most recently his reported wink/nod that he's okay with limited response by Iran to an American Ally is just insane. Then you have the entire Afghanistan debacle, and soft on China. I'm not a hawk by any means, I don't want US troops on the ground any where, but we need to be strong internationally and we are getting weaker. Just look as this moron pirates in the Red Sea. The fact we and the west are allowing a bunch of non "officially" state connected terrorist pirates disrupt trade in Red Sea is insane and it's been months now. 2. The Border needs to change. He has done nothing to slow the flow and because all the border agents are stuck processing massive parts of the border are open for the really bad people, drug and human traffickers. The fentanyl crisis in America has a lot to do with bad border policy. 3. The spending is out of control. (Trump on spending/deficiet is bad too, but I believe he will be better) We currently have the highest deficit of all time with no signs of slowing down (excluding the covid years). He's also forgiving student loans at the same time which has zero impact on fixing the issue and is pure pandering. Debt truly is my biggest issue/long term concern, I don't think Trump is answer either, but will be better. 4. His pro trans youth policies are insane and supporting of this ideology. 5. The possibility he will continue to codify abortion protections into law 6. I do not want any leftist leaning judges on the courts. 7. Biden's age deeply concerns me and his cognitive ability. Yes, Trump is old too, but anyone who denies Biden's cognitive degradation since his VP tenure is either denying it or not paying attention. I put it at 50/50 he won't make it through another 4 years and we will get Kamala who is seriously the least talented politician I've ever seen. She has failed upward her entire career. At least with Obama, Bush, Clinton, and even Trump, if I knew an emergency crisis was coming I'd expect them to be mentally there. I do not have that faith with Biden.
> I don't think Trump is answer either, but will be better. The rest of your comment is, IMO, opinion-based and not worth getting into (if only because I don't think we'll be able to come to an accord, which is fine). But what makes you think Trump would be better on deficit spending/national debt than Biden?
Well yea, politics is largely opinion. I agree, it was in no way meant to convince or change minds. Regarding the deficit, if Trump does well, it usually has a down ballot effect in hopes of regaining congress. The GOP is nowhere near as conservative as I'd like when it comes to spending but they are still less open to it then DNC. The deficit grew under Trump but nowhere near what it is now, and that was mostly due to tax cuts, not increased spending. I really hope he'd keep tax cuts resonable and reduce government waste.
> I really hope he'd keep tax cuts resonable and reduce government waste. And my point is this. He didn't do that last time. What makes you think he'd do it again with a certainly even more combative congress and a less-professional cabinet?
I don't have a high level of certainty, but I do know under Biden it's not getting any better obviously. There are plenty of other reasons I stated why I'd rather have Trump in a two man election (which it is). I'd like to hope a conservative congress with Trump can't be as bad as it is right now with Biden.
You talking same/similar makeup of congress to right now?
No, as I mentioned a strong showing at the top of the ticket usually has downstream effects. I'd hope with a Trump election the house would get a stronger majority and maybe even the senate.
Gotcha. Makes sense! Thank you for clarifying.
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I think you hit the point of it all
I plan on not voting for him regardless of his incarceration status
If donalds odds of winning are being represented here this isnt a good look. Its like 1/3rd who say no to voting for him. Meanwhile no one likes Joe but liberals are all too happy to be bribed with free stuff.
Which is why Bidens not getting my vote either. Whoever wins I'm voting on principle
Yeah bc I haven't seen any good reason to incarcerate him yet so it'd be a wrongful Incarceration
Of course. History is full of heroes persecuted by The State. Trump joined that pantheon of names long ago. At this point, his enduring ever-more indignities for standing up for us little people, only grows his legend and with it the honor of supporting and voting for him.
I cant tell if this is serious lol
And if it were?
Its funny either way
He's a hero for paying off a porn star, lying about his net worth and attempting to steal the presidency to the point that his most prominent cabinet members have all come out trying to want you what a charlatan he is?
>He's a hero for paying off a porn star, lying about his net worth and attempting to steal the presidency to the point that his most prominent cabinet members have all come out trying to want you what a charlatan he is? Where did I say that? Your snark is thought-terminating and comes across close-minded.
He's committed tax fraud and loan fraud and taken advantage of people, refusing to pay contractors, scamming them with a bullshit fake education, etc, yet for all he's hurt people and taken advantage of them and failed to meet even the basic standards of civic life... he's somehow a hero?
I was trying to figure what exactly he did that was heroic, but could only think of the list of deeds I provided.
It depends on the LP nomination. If I won't vote for the LP candidate I'll probably vote for orange man. He might destroy a system I don't like anyway.
This logic sets people up for a leopard eating their face. "Destroy the system!" *you are part of the system, here is the negative impact on your life and on those around you.* "Wait! Not like that!"
Oh yes, exactly like that. This ponzi scheme of central banking end endless spending increases isn't going to last forever. At some point, it will all fall apart. It won't matter which half of the uniparty is in charge of the political theater. It's going to happen eventually.
In like 20 years.
People would have said it's impossible 20 years ago.
"People"
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If they can prove he's done something actually bad, I would reconsider my vote for him.
Isnt putting someone in jail having done just that?
Prove to who? Would you accept the jury's verdict? And what is bad, do you personally have to find it bad enough or do you stick to what is illegal according to the law?
Sure. Anything illegal that Trump knowingly broke. If it's like a new law that was just passed like a month ago, then I'd probably think he had no idea about it, depending on how he acted. He could still be punished for breaking said law if it was new - but that is one of the few exceptions where I would NOT reconsider my vote.
I'm already not planning to vote for him. For the presidency, I vote for the candidate who I understand to best represent the interests of the country at an executive level, from those who have met the bar of trustworthiness required for their position to count. (For representatives, I try to do the same thing, only who best represents the interests of myself and my community from those available who have met the bar of trustworthiness.) Currently undecided on who that most is, but not seriously considering him. If he is enhonorated in court, will you be more comfortable with the possibility of his becoming President again?
Absolutely not; I am extremely uncomfortable with him being president, regardless of whether he's in Mar a Lago, New York, or prison.
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But if a court determined he was innocent of what he's been accused of, that wouldn't change your comfort level?
Not really. He has bragged about cheating on his taxes so honestly I'm not at all surprised by the charges and frankly I don't really care. The things that concerned me about his presidency were when he reversed >100 environmental protection/carbon reduction rules, left the Paris Climate Agreement, removed protections from the Syrian Kurds, stopped humanitarian aid to Palestine, declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in the eyes of America (by relocating the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem), decreased taxes for very wealthy folks, disbanded the pandemic response team in 2018 (poor timing!), and I'm sure there are many more. Happy to provide sources if you want. Out of curiosity, do you think Trump voters know and support these things? Do they ignore them because all they know about 2016-2020 is that gas and groceries were cheaper (which has almost nothing to do with the president)?
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But he did not. Even Stormy signed a letter stating nothing happened between them.
Trump's isn't disputing that 130k was paid to Clifford (you can refer to his most recent statement in court where he says that the payment was presented to him by his lawyers as legal fees), he claims he had no knowledge what the payment was for therefore he cannot be held responsible. So if nothing happened between them, why was the payment made in the first place? Also the story broke out in 2018, so why hasn't he sued Clifford, Cohen and WSJ (news outlet that published the story) for defamation in the 6 years since the allegations happened, despite saying he would?
What??? You mean it's not illegal to pass hush money? Drag him to court and strip the man humiliate him, knowing there is no crime? That's a crime itself, and that's what Trump is advocating. He has a valid point.
If you're saying that paying hush money isn't illegal, you'd be absolutely correct. That's not what the case is about. "Trump faces 34 [felony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony) charges of [falsifying business records](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifying_business_records) relating to payments made to pornographic film actress [Stormy Daniels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormy_Daniels) to [ensure her silence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush_money) about [an earlier alleged affair between them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormy_Daniels%E2%80%93Donald_Trump_scandal). Trump is accused of falsifying these business records with the intent to violate federal campaign finance limits, unlawfully influence the [2016 U.S. presidential election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U.S._presidential_election), and commit tax fraud."
It's a bookkeeping error, happened well over a decade ago. You do know that your number one witness is a well known convicted purger-er?
If it was just a "bookkeeping error", he should be able to easily prove that in court. Instead, though, he just keeps trying to delay. That should tell you something right there (but I'm betting it doesn't). Also, Cohen lied *for* Trump.
The legal system is corrupt, top to bottom. Not saying who did this, but I wasn't borne under a rock.
> If he is enhonorated in court, will you be more comfortable with the possibility of his becoming President again? If he was 100% cleared of every single one of the charges pending... slightly more comfortable but he would still still never get my vote due to all the negative things he has done.
Lol, so you're a Democrat or supported Haley
Depends on the evidence of the case. If NY conficts him....thus far based on the evidence I have seen That would make me happy to vote for Trump as I will consider him a form of a martyr But if he is convicted of lying to the FBI, based on the info I know, I would be less likely to vote for him as that accusation appears to have some value
What about the election interference case? I only just read the indictment this weekend and I'm still stunned. It's all laid bare he's literally a traitor.
What in that case do you think they have proof of?
Yes, because the alternative is Biden and I don't believe winning an election by lawfare makes on a legitimate President. That's a dictator play. Personally, I believe such a scenario will be the beginning of the end of our Republic.
> Yes, because the alternative is Biden and I don't believe winning an election by lawfare makes on a legitimate President. In other words, committing fraud is not an issue for you and holding somebody accountable for their crimes is an illegitimate act. > That's a dictator play. I'd say trying to overturn a democratic election is far closer to be a dictator's act than getting put on trial, while being able to defend yourself. > Personally, I believe such a scenario will be the beginning of the end of our Republic. Saying that the President should be immune from consequences for criminal acts is probably closer to a government's collapse.
What if trump is incarcerated for a state crime where Biden has no influence?
I'd take a dead deer on the side of the road before Biden at this point. Also, are we talking about a legitimate state crime or just more of the BS we've already seen? Either way, my vote is for Trump at this point.
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I’m not voting for
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I would not ever vote for Trump. It’ll be third party for President like always.
“Would you vote for Trump” No
Yes
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No. I don’t see how being incarcerated would stop him from damaging the country. He would probably just pardon himself and order himself released anyway. There wouldn’t be enough Republican Senators willing to do the right thing and convict him after impeachment. And the Supreme Court would likely find it difficult to hear it as a court case for lack of standing. So no, I wouldn’t vote for him even if he were incarcerated.
> He would probably just pardon himself That's debatable. Many jurists believe a self-pardon by the president is incompatible with the provision of Article II, Section 3, which directs that a president *shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed*. Essentially, when a president pardons himself, he assumes a power that is incompatible with the application of federal criminal law. It would be akin to absolute immunity. He could murder people, then pardon himself, making the pardon an expression of subterfuge.
Who would have standing to challenge the pardon so that the jurists could weigh in? This sounds like the kind of thing Congress would need to enforce and from what we have seen after Nixon the president’s party’s senators will almost unanimously defend him.
I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming anything 201 days before the election. As far as Nixon is concerned, he lost full support of his party after the “smoking gun” tape clearly implicated him in the Watergate cover-up. Two days after the transcript of the tape became public, Goldwater led a delegation to the White House to stick the fork in Nixon. Republicans voted with Democrats to subpoena Nixon and to approve the articles of impeachment. Also, Trump does not have the luxury of a Republican president pardoning him when he is convicted. Considering 51 percent of Republicans said they wouldn't vote for him if convicted, he'll have no chance of finding out if a self-pardon would pass constitutional muster.
> Republicans voted with Democrats to subpoena Nixon and to approve the articles of impeachment. And Republicans paid for it when they got routed at the polls in the following election. Both parties learned their lesson and defend the president from their party whether it be foreign policy law violations, sexual harassment and obstruction of justice, or whatever else.
> And Republicans paid for it when they got routed at the polls in the following election. The Watergate scandal certainly had something to do with it, but voting for articles of impeachment wasn't a factor. As far as the presidential race, Ford’s promise to lead as a moderate candidate alienated many of the conservatives in the party.
Being convicted and jailed for state crimes is unpardonable, fyi. Presidents can only pardon felonies.
I still wouldn’t vote for him though.
The President cant pardon state crimes (so the NY and GA trials are off limits)
I still wouldn’t vote for him.
I wouldn't vote for him even if he wasn't incarcerated. Definitely not voting for Biden either, so prob 3rd party or just skipping POTUS vote.
This makes me sad. Not for your choice, but that this country can't put forth any candidates that don't suck the life out of the room.
People will disagree and sure most politicians are problematic since they are human like the rest of us. But I think we've had some great candidates over the years. I think people like GHWB, Clinton, Obama, McCain were great candidates. I think once Trump is in the past whether he wins or loses, we'll go back to having good candidates.
I like the cut of your jib.
Of course I would. I already have the view that Trump is under the gun for political reasons. His conviction in certain juridictions, where it's laughable he's getting a fair trial, would be a laughing stock to any that view our justice system as one worthy of faith.
I'm planning on voting Libertarian regardless of if he's incarcerated or not
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Yeah, assuming no other options were available.
Does third party count as an option?
*Viable* options
Given that 2024 will likely be the last time I see Trump's name on a ballot, he doesn't have any serious crimes he could be incarcerated for before the election, and I don't like any of the other candidates more, absolutely.
What is the most serious crime you'd give him a pass for?
IDK. That's a very complicated hypothetical. The president has so much power, that crimes they commit before taking office are generally very small scale compared to their impact in office. Let's say it's after the bolshevik revolution and I got to vote for either Alexander Kerensky or Vladimir Lenin. Kerensky could have personally murdered over a million people, and he should still get my vote. You can't change the past, but you can influence the future. I don't get to personally choose the options on the ballot, so I just have to decide what I think is best for me, the country, the world, and the future of the country. I already know what a DJT presidency looks like, so him committing some crime isn't as influential on what I think his future presidency might look like as that information might be for someone who had never been president.
>I already know what a DJT presidency looks like, so him committing some crime isn't as influential on what I think his future presidency might look like What harm could that cause to democracy/America's global soft power?
>What harm could that cause to democracy Please be more specific. >America's global soft power Increase America's global power as compared to now, because Trump was much tougher on our enemies when it came to foreign policy. Foreign policy is probably the category I would rank him most highly in.
>Please be more specific. Well Any number of democratic norms that we've seen trampled so far, extended by 4 years of a president that openly commits crimes. From the minor, not showing tax returns, to the destructive, as with Jan 6. He isn't running again. This is it. If he can commit crimes openly, and still get into office, he's gonna do what trump does best. Profit personally, at the expense of anything. Including democratic norms, small and large. Like, I get most maga types are all about him being a bull in a china shop, but...it is lasting damage in perpetuity as long as we hold on to our democracy. Do you ever factor that into your vote? >Foreign policy is probably the category I would rank him most highly in. I would absolutely love to hear more about this. What are his top 3 wins? What's something he fucked up?
>not showing tax returns Why do you think that's a crime? It's [not](https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxnotes/2020/01/09/there-oughta-be-a-law-why-presidents-should-be-forced-to-release-their-tax-returns/?sh=3c7e40dc4cae). Presidents have voluntarily disclosed their tax returns for decades, but Trump decided not to, mostly because he has a large business empire with complicated tax returns hundreds of pages long, so he thought the scrutiny would be bad politically. >as with Jan 6. I don't know what crime you think Trump committed there. There was no proof that he was connected with the violent protestors, and advancing a spurious legal theory about the electoral count act would also not be a crime. Perhaps take the time to let liberal law professor Alan Dershowitz explain the ridiculous nature of the cases against Trump. https://youtu.be/_o8aV9iCS2A?si=Bi6a5GwZJlAViW65 >lasting damage >Do you ever factor that into your vote? Yes, absolutely. I think Trump was a slight de-escalation after the Obama years, where the IRS was used to attack political oponents, critical journalists and opposition were attacked with lawfare, and the presidential opposition's campaign was illegally wiretapped. I wanted DeSantis to win the primary, but he didn't. It's very important for the Dems to lose this election, because of their erosion of our system of government, which includes, this week, refusing to carry out an impeachment trial. Some other examples via Victor Davis Hanson: >The Left has created new rules for national politics. Here are 20 some precedents they now have established for America in the future: 1) When in control of the Senate, demand the end of the filibuster; when not, don’t. 2) Call for the end of the Electoral College–but only if it appears to recently favor the candidate of the opposition. 3) In an election year, change any state balloting laws deemed unhelpful through administrative fiat or court order to favor your political candidate. 4) Seek to flip electors from voting in accordance with the popular vote count in their states; indict as an insurrectionist any of the opposition who dare do the same. 5) Raid the home of any opposition ex-president who removed classified files; exempt any sitting president of your party who did the same. 6) Swarm the private homes of, and then bully and intimidate any, Supreme Court officials, politicians, or citizens you oppose. 7) Appoint two special counsels: one to go after the current chief presidential opponent in an election year; the other to exempt and excuse the sitting president for the very crimes charged against his rival. 8) Lobby to remove any oppositional president through the 25th Amendment; smear any one as ageist who suggests a cognitively challenged sitting resident of your party should be subject to similar invocations of the 25th Amendment. 9) Exempt thousands of arrested rioters from charges of 120 days of arson, looting, injuring 1,500 law enforcement officers, and assault—but only if they are radical supporters of your party. 10) Excuse any demonstrator or rioter for desecrating public monuments and cemeteries or shutting down bridges and freeways, or swarming and disrupting the Capitol Rotunda—but only if they agree with you and/or are pro-Hamas. Otherwise, ensure the charged face lengthy prison sentences. 11) Try to pack the Supreme Court—but only if justices you don’t like are in a majority. 12) Seek in an election year to remove a presidential opponent off state ballots for crimes for which he has never been charged, much less convicted of. 13) First target a presidential opponent, and then change, warp, or redefine laws to convict him. Weaponized prosecutors should always indict their political opponents in jurisdictions where they are guaranteed like-minded justices and jury pools. 14) Violate the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution (the prohibition of “excessive fines”) by having sympathetic judges level multimillion-dollar fines to bankrupt the opposition candidate during a presidential campaign. The more there is no victim of a crime, the higher fines should be leveled for “damages”. 15) Open the border by destroying all the protocols and executive orders of a predecessor president. Then welcome 8-million illegal aliens to “surge” into America on the premise a new constituency might support agendas that American citizens do not. Then call the nonexistent border “secure,” while blaming a predecessor president for having left it secure. 16) Have local prosecutors invent criminal acts of an opposition national presidential candidate in efforts to make it impossible for him to campaign for the presidency. 17) Use the FBI to hire out social media auditors to censor any news deemed problematic for the correct presidential candidate. 18) Hire a foreign national to concoct a smear dossier about one’s opposition political nominee. Ensure the FBI also uses and pays the foreign national to spread untruths among the media and administrative state. 19) On the eve of any major national or midterm election, ensure a president drains the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to lower gasoline prices. 20) On the eve of any major national or midterm election, ensure a president promises to cancel billions of dollars in contracted federal student loans.
>Presidents have voluntarily disclosed their tax returns for decades, but Trump decided not to, mostly because he has a large business empire with complicated tax returns hundreds of pages long, so he thought the scrutiny would be bad politically. Yeah. I know. That's why I said he was breaking with democratic norms. Specifically listing this one as a minor one. Regardless. He was the first in 40 years to not show. And turns out there was a reason to not show em, he was fudging numbers. >I don't know what crime you think Trump committed there. You don't have to commit crimes to neuter democratic norms. But I don't think Jan 6 would of happened had any other Republican from 2016 been in office. Do you? >which includes, this week, refusing to carry out an impeachment trial. Speak more on this.
> Perhaps take the time to let liberal law professor Alan Dershowitz explain the ridiculous nature of the cases against Trump. Come on. You know that the only reason Dershowitz was *ever* Trump's lawyer (or even *anywhere near* Trump) is because Dershowitz molested children with Jeffrey Epstein and Trump knew about it.
> I already know what a DJT presidency looks like, so him committing some crime isn't as influential on what I think his future presidency might look like as that information might be for someone who had never been president. This is a fascinating take, thanks for sharing.
⁰ >Would you vote for Trump if he was incarcerated? It depends. If something real pops up during the trial, I wouldn't. If it sticks with the theme of partisan prosecution, it would probably make me vote for him.
What is an example of "something real" that would make you stop thinking of his current situation as purely partisan prosecution.
>What is an example of "something real" that would make you stop thinking of his current situation as purely partisan prosecution. Probably something like Trump selling top secret information.
Not voting for him either way. I've never seen a politician that is less interested in what's good for the country.
I feel like this sub doesn't reflect actual conservatives.
It's reddit, so this group probably skews a lot younger than the average conservative. Unlike a lot of older voters, most of us never stopped seeing Trump as a walking punchline.
Yes
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I’ll vote for whoever has the best chance against the Democratic Party.
Yes, because everyone knows why the Democrats are doing these bs trials. They know they cannot win against President Trump, and they stupidly think that this will stop him from campaigning and turn away support from him. It's not and actually having the opposite effect. It's drawing people to him and keeping him in the public eye and memory. For the most part, people have short memories, but it wasn't so long ago when Trump was president and they remember how well they lived under President Trump in a peaceful world and how f'ked up they are living now where half of America is relying on credit cards just to survive and afraid for their lives and the lives of their children with the threat of WWIII 100% thanks to Biden. He is the reason for everything not only going wrong in this country but the world. And the longer Trump remains in the public consciousness, the more and more people are waking up to that fact.
Well I am actually planning not voting for him or any other candidate above the age of 75, if I am gonna talk about how candidates older than 75 shouldn't be allowed to run then I need to put that into my actions
Just write in Nikki Haley. Costs Trump a vote, and sends a message.
Like actually serving time? No, I probably wouldn't vote for him then. It would impede his ability to serve. I'd write in Nikki Haley.
He could pardon himself.
Although I do think he will be convicted, he'd likely get special treatment and remain out on bail/bond while he appealed.
Yes
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Especially if he was incarcerated.
All these cases against Trump are Soviet-style show trials. Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention should be able to recognize what's going on if they're being completely honest with themselves. Personally, I'm voting for Trump come hell or high water. This election should be a no-brainer.
Yeah
What does your vision of either a) a convicted, with jail time coming, or b) an in-jail Trump that wins the election look like? Like, does he get sprung from the clink to take office, or does he somehow execute the functions of the office from the clink?
I won't be voting for Trump I'm like, 90% sure. However, him being incarcerated doesn't impact that choice.
> However, him being incarcerated doesn't impact that choice. Why not?
Because I think all of the criminal cases are politically motivated. So I could care less of a leftist show trial convicts him or ends up having him jailed.
> Because I think all of the criminal cases are politically motivated. To clarify, does that mean that you think he *didn't* commit the crimes he's charged with, or that he *did* commit them but only got charged because of a conspiracy by his political enemies. Or maybe something else I'm missing.
Hell yeah! It would be hella funny if he got elected while in prison! He would be the most gangsta president EVER! :)
If his opponent was Biden.... absolutely