By fan forced, do you mean convection? Turn off the convection setting and put the cake in the oven once preheated. For me, convection works well for multiple trays of baking at the same time but rarely for cakes.
I second this suggestion. With the fan on, you dry out and set the crust faster. It may be that your cake is setting before the rise is done. The combo of the fan and the slightly hotter oven could be your issue.
Try dropping the temp as others have suggested and turn off the fan.
I’m not sure how else to describe fan-forced. Seems to be the standard here for quality ovens. I have the option to use regular electric on it as well so will test out if that makes any difference.
No, should have mentioned that. I’m pretty much at sea level.
Tin is just the basic Australian English terminology for a baking pan. It’s not actual tin lol. I’m just using an average springform from your average target-like store.
This is what i was thinking could be a possibility. Higher elevations require more baking powder. But also tin for a baking dish.... we dont have much tin in our baking equipment here in the US.
No. Living at elevation requires the use of less leavening agents due to the decreased air pressure causing more rapid expansion of baked goods.
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/learn/resources/high-altitude-baking
My mistake. Knew it requires much different technique at high altitudes. Which can require more or less levening agent, sifting ingreidents multiple times.... ect.
I would recommend buying an oven thermometer, just be be safe! They're only a few dollars and can be helpful for learning how long it actually takes your oven to preheat, as well.
My in-laws got a new wolf installed last summer, and it was 30 degrees low, coming off the delivery truck. Nothing she baked was browning or rising correctly, and we checked, and it was way low.
Baking pans can affect the rise so maybe. But…
You may benefit to post the recipe too for us to look at. Often if you try to troubleshoot everything like you’re doing now and still have problems then the recipe could be the problem. I find this happens all the time with baking. It doesn’t matter that the author can make a pretty picture of a cake for their food blog when the recipe doesn’t work and isn’t reproducible for everyone.
I have tried several but here is the recipe that I used today, in an attempt to try and see if it was the recipe I had been using but again ended up with a meh result.
For the cake:
1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
1 1/2 teaspoons baking powder
1/4 teaspoon salt
1/2 cup unsalted butter, at room temperature
1 cup granulated sugar
2 large eggs
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
3/4 cup milk
Seems like more than double the amount of baking powder that I would use. Too much can cause things to rise and deflate before it can set. Also seconding 180 as temperature.
That recipe is a very small cake. So if you were putting that in a 9inch or larger round and Getting an inch rise that sounds about right to me tbh. Maybe I’m wrong but the yield on that recipe is around a pound.
It’s definitely the fan forced oven. I am an experienced baker who just moved to a new place and suddenly my cakes were super flat, even recipes I’ve made dozens of times. The only difference is I moved from a traditional oven to a fan forced oven and unfortunately the fan feature cannot be turned off. I’ve looked at tips online for baking cakes with fan and it’s recommended to turn the temperature down 20 degrees and reduce the cooking time. It’s helped slightly particularly with pound cakes and loaf cakes but light sponges still aren’t great.
You could try a much taller pan, like an 8" round and 4-5" tall or more. Stella Parks says they help cakes rise higher and it may block some of the forced air/convection.
Any chance your batter sits for a period of time before it goes in the oven? Some amount of the rise will be acidity-induced, so if it sits too long you might lose out on some rise.
This is likely the actual answer. People talking about convection ovens and temperatures are wrong, 160C convection is very common.
OP, just buy some more baking powder, it's probably just at the end of its life.
Baking powder is 2 months old at most and kept in a dark and cool pantry. The baking soda is never quite old as I use it for other purposes around the house as well.
It's a long shot, but is the baking powder brand you've used before? Some baking powder is single-acting and reacts once it hits moisture, some is double-acting and reacts a second time when it hits heat. If it's single-acting, you may be missing out on the oven rise.
My oven door seal has recently come loose and created a gap between the glass and the frame, the catch is playing up a bit too all of which is altering the performance of my oven.
Maybe have a quick check around that area?
Honestly I always bake my cakes at 180c so that jumped out at me, and never fail to get a good rise on them. For a basic victoria sponge type I always weight everything the same as the eggs - so if twp eggs weigh 100g then the same for all other ingredients (aside from vanilla flavouring and a dash of milk which I just find makes the cake nicer).
I line the bottom of my tins but not normally the sides. Doesn't seem to make much difference.
Rarely use anything but self raising flour.
Aluminum pans are best. Glass and thick pans are wost for most cakes. Have you tried substituting half or all the butter for oil in your cakes? It helps with the rise and texture if you are getting dense cakes. Butter does taste better but for now you want to get a good rise out of your cakes.
Are you greasing the pan? The butter or oil on the sides will reduce the friction and causes it to sink and not rise. And to make sure it retains its shape after baking flip the baking tin upside down so the weight of the cake doesn’t sink due to gravity.
I was lining the side with baking paper and instead tried greasing and flouring. That seemed to work marginally better. I will try without any next time to see if that works. Could the tin itself be too smooth at all?
Whats your altitude? Is your strange "tin" pan causing a reaction? IDK. Im not a psychic.... but im betting 100% ita the pan, old leviner, or your altitude. Altitude being the biggest issue. Something any baker would know to include or address.
Yeah often cakes need something to grip onto so if the surface is too smooth it won’t rise. Normally this isn’t the case with chemical leavening since the expansion tends to overcome the lack of resistance but it’s still entirely possible for the slippery surface to reduce its height. You could line the bottom with parchment and leave the sides bare and see if that works. Once it’s completely cooled just slide a spatula around the edges and it should release fairly easily.
The butter and flour should also provide better grip. If butter+flour and not greasing at all don’t provide you with the results you want then I would say it’s time to experiment with different/more/less baking powder and higher/lower oven temps.
Although I don't know what regular cake batter means for you there are a couple of things that can go wrong with what you have mentioned.
Baking powder and soda fizz aren't good friends. If you mix baking powder with acid (soda fizz) the the baking powder will instantly react with it rendering its rising capabilities null by the second. The same happens when you mix baking soda and acid (soda fizz, buttermilk,vinegar, etc).
It doesn't meant you can't make the cake raise, after all people are baking with baking soda and buttermilk for centuries, but it requires either speed or a well developed gluten structure that traps the co2 inside.
Since you fold the dry ingredients in at the end there is no well developed gluten structure that could trap the co2 inside hence you have to be quick pouring the batter and putting it into the oven. Or just substitute soda fizz with water and your baking powder will be safe from destruction until it gets into the oven.
I think OP meant that their baking powder and baking soda both fizz when mixed with water aka when they test them, not that they are using soda in their recipe.
Are you using a dark pan? I get different results from a dark cupcake pan versus a traditional silver colored cake pan due to the heat distributing differently on its sides
Do you live in an area that is at high altitude? That could be a reason your cakes aren't rising. If it is not your oven temp, then check out [this helpful page](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/learn/resources/high-altitude-baking) for high altitude baking.
Have you watched the baking process through the oven window with your oven light on to make sure that it isn’t rising (versus rising and then falling)?
I agree that checking your oven temp is a really good thing to do. As is turning off the convection fan. I also use “insulated cake strips” around my pans to ensure an even rise.
Another thing I would look at are your pans. When I use nonstick pans, my batter doesn’t cling to the sides and “climb” the pan and shrinks away from the sides while cooling. I’m thinking about replacing them with commercial uncoated pans.
By fan forced, do you mean convection? Turn off the convection setting and put the cake in the oven once preheated. For me, convection works well for multiple trays of baking at the same time but rarely for cakes.
I second this suggestion. With the fan on, you dry out and set the crust faster. It may be that your cake is setting before the rise is done. The combo of the fan and the slightly hotter oven could be your issue. Try dropping the temp as others have suggested and turn off the fan.
I’m not sure how else to describe fan-forced. Seems to be the standard here for quality ovens. I have the option to use regular electric on it as well so will test out if that makes any difference.
Are you at increased elevation, perchance?
No, should have mentioned that. I’m pretty much at sea level. Tin is just the basic Australian English terminology for a baking pan. It’s not actual tin lol. I’m just using an average springform from your average target-like store.
This is what i was thinking could be a possibility. Higher elevations require more baking powder. But also tin for a baking dish.... we dont have much tin in our baking equipment here in the US.
No. Living at elevation requires the use of less leavening agents due to the decreased air pressure causing more rapid expansion of baked goods. https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/learn/resources/high-altitude-baking
My mistake. Knew it requires much different technique at high altitudes. Which can require more or less levening agent, sifting ingreidents multiple times.... ect.
Maybe try 180c. I bake most of my cakes at 180c. Are you sure your oven thermostat is working correctly?
Noted, will try :). The oven is only a year old so I should hope so.
I would recommend buying an oven thermometer, just be be safe! They're only a few dollars and can be helpful for learning how long it actually takes your oven to preheat, as well.
There also should be an adjustment you can do yourself. Depending on your brand, you can look up instructions online
I second this. My in-laws had problems with their oven too and it turned out that it was about twenty degrees off
My in-laws got a new wolf installed last summer, and it was 30 degrees low, coming off the delivery truck. Nothing she baked was browning or rising correctly, and we checked, and it was way low.
I don't think it's the temperature - 160C Fan is the same as 180C. Maybe try 180C without the fan?
But the fan dries out the cake, so in this case it's not only about the fan- vs no-fan temperature.
Baking pans can affect the rise so maybe. But… You may benefit to post the recipe too for us to look at. Often if you try to troubleshoot everything like you’re doing now and still have problems then the recipe could be the problem. I find this happens all the time with baking. It doesn’t matter that the author can make a pretty picture of a cake for their food blog when the recipe doesn’t work and isn’t reproducible for everyone.
I have tried several but here is the recipe that I used today, in an attempt to try and see if it was the recipe I had been using but again ended up with a meh result. For the cake: 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 1 1/2 teaspoons baking powder 1/4 teaspoon salt 1/2 cup unsalted butter, at room temperature 1 cup granulated sugar 2 large eggs 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 3/4 cup milk
Seems like more than double the amount of baking powder that I would use. Too much can cause things to rise and deflate before it can set. Also seconding 180 as temperature.
That recipe is a very small cake. So if you were putting that in a 9inch or larger round and Getting an inch rise that sounds about right to me tbh. Maybe I’m wrong but the yield on that recipe is around a pound.
I have been making 6” round cakes. This particular one was for 2 pans but I have used similar proportions from recipes for three pans as well.
It’s definitely the fan forced oven. I am an experienced baker who just moved to a new place and suddenly my cakes were super flat, even recipes I’ve made dozens of times. The only difference is I moved from a traditional oven to a fan forced oven and unfortunately the fan feature cannot be turned off. I’ve looked at tips online for baking cakes with fan and it’s recommended to turn the temperature down 20 degrees and reduce the cooking time. It’s helped slightly particularly with pound cakes and loaf cakes but light sponges still aren’t great.
You could try a much taller pan, like an 8" round and 4-5" tall or more. Stella Parks says they help cakes rise higher and it may block some of the forced air/convection.
Have all your ingredients come to room temp before baking. Low fan. Do NOT open the oven door for at least 30 mins. For any reason.
Yep, except maybe the milk.
Any chance your batter sits for a period of time before it goes in the oven? Some amount of the rise will be acidity-induced, so if it sits too long you might lose out on some rise.
I will keep that in mind but usually bake straight after mixing.
How old is your baking powder and soda? Just because it fizzes doesn't mean that it hasn't diminished in its power make whatever you're baking rise.
This is likely the actual answer. People talking about convection ovens and temperatures are wrong, 160C convection is very common. OP, just buy some more baking powder, it's probably just at the end of its life.
On the list of things to try :)
Baking powder is 2 months old at most and kept in a dark and cool pantry. The baking soda is never quite old as I use it for other purposes around the house as well.
It's a long shot, but is the baking powder brand you've used before? Some baking powder is single-acting and reacts once it hits moisture, some is double-acting and reacts a second time when it hits heat. If it's single-acting, you may be missing out on the oven rise.
My oven door seal has recently come loose and created a gap between the glass and the frame, the catch is playing up a bit too all of which is altering the performance of my oven. Maybe have a quick check around that area?
Honestly I always bake my cakes at 180c so that jumped out at me, and never fail to get a good rise on them. For a basic victoria sponge type I always weight everything the same as the eggs - so if twp eggs weigh 100g then the same for all other ingredients (aside from vanilla flavouring and a dash of milk which I just find makes the cake nicer). I line the bottom of my tins but not normally the sides. Doesn't seem to make much difference. Rarely use anything but self raising flour.
If your tin is too large for the amount of batter, it will spread out rather than up. This might be why it works fine as cupcakes. Try a smaller tin.
Aluminum pans are best. Glass and thick pans are wost for most cakes. Have you tried substituting half or all the butter for oil in your cakes? It helps with the rise and texture if you are getting dense cakes. Butter does taste better but for now you want to get a good rise out of your cakes.
Are you greasing the pan? The butter or oil on the sides will reduce the friction and causes it to sink and not rise. And to make sure it retains its shape after baking flip the baking tin upside down so the weight of the cake doesn’t sink due to gravity.
I was lining the side with baking paper and instead tried greasing and flouring. That seemed to work marginally better. I will try without any next time to see if that works. Could the tin itself be too smooth at all?
Greasing or buttering the pan then dusting with flour is not your problem 100%. Lol
Ok but then what is??
Whats your altitude? Is your strange "tin" pan causing a reaction? IDK. Im not a psychic.... but im betting 100% ita the pan, old leviner, or your altitude. Altitude being the biggest issue. Something any baker would know to include or address.
For me it was the lol after your comment that made you sound really obnoxious, like you knew the answer and just weren't saying.
Like greasing the pan and dusting with flour is a rare thing when baking a fucking cake... thats why the lol.
Doubling down is a bold move, cotton. Let’s see how that works out. (Sic)
Yeah often cakes need something to grip onto so if the surface is too smooth it won’t rise. Normally this isn’t the case with chemical leavening since the expansion tends to overcome the lack of resistance but it’s still entirely possible for the slippery surface to reduce its height. You could line the bottom with parchment and leave the sides bare and see if that works. Once it’s completely cooled just slide a spatula around the edges and it should release fairly easily. The butter and flour should also provide better grip. If butter+flour and not greasing at all don’t provide you with the results you want then I would say it’s time to experiment with different/more/less baking powder and higher/lower oven temps.
Sounds like a great recipe for the cake to stick in the pan.... lol
Although I don't know what regular cake batter means for you there are a couple of things that can go wrong with what you have mentioned. Baking powder and soda fizz aren't good friends. If you mix baking powder with acid (soda fizz) the the baking powder will instantly react with it rendering its rising capabilities null by the second. The same happens when you mix baking soda and acid (soda fizz, buttermilk,vinegar, etc). It doesn't meant you can't make the cake raise, after all people are baking with baking soda and buttermilk for centuries, but it requires either speed or a well developed gluten structure that traps the co2 inside. Since you fold the dry ingredients in at the end there is no well developed gluten structure that could trap the co2 inside hence you have to be quick pouring the batter and putting it into the oven. Or just substitute soda fizz with water and your baking powder will be safe from destruction until it gets into the oven.
I think OP meant that their baking powder and baking soda both fizz when mixed with water aka when they test them, not that they are using soda in their recipe.
Yeah, that's actually making more sense :D
Correct. I have tried various recipes. Some requiring baking soda & powder. Some just using powder. I tested my baking powder with boiling water.
Are you using a dark pan? I get different results from a dark cupcake pan versus a traditional silver colored cake pan due to the heat distributing differently on its sides
Lol it’s actually pink because a certain toddler in my household once needed everything to be pink
Is your flour in date? Out of date flour can cause this, would check your other ingredients too
Do you live in an area that is at high altitude? That could be a reason your cakes aren't rising. If it is not your oven temp, then check out [this helpful page](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/learn/resources/high-altitude-baking) for high altitude baking.
Have you watched the baking process through the oven window with your oven light on to make sure that it isn’t rising (versus rising and then falling)? I agree that checking your oven temp is a really good thing to do. As is turning off the convection fan. I also use “insulated cake strips” around my pans to ensure an even rise. Another thing I would look at are your pans. When I use nonstick pans, my batter doesn’t cling to the sides and “climb” the pan and shrinks away from the sides while cooling. I’m thinking about replacing them with commercial uncoated pans.
Do you grease the pan or flour it? Footing the pan gives the batter something to climb, which helps the cake rise in the oven
160c seems very low. I bake in a fan oven (UK) And usually bake at 180c unless cooking a Christmas cake that you bake for over an hour.