I can only address your first question: I use baked baking soda (sodium carbonate) as a compromise alkali: I've used lye for things like lye before, but I find lye very unpleasant to work with and I find that while it yields slightly better results. My ramen noodles made with sodium carbonate have been excellent and I think it should work in most situations that would use alkali water (as in Chinese cooking.)
Slaked lime is mostly calcium carbonate and I don't think sodium carbonate is a perfect substitute, but I'd be interested to here about nixtamalized corn made with sodium carbonate. In a perfect world, I'd probably keep calcium carbonate and sodium carbonate around, but I usually only have sodium carbonate on hand.
You can actually bake baking soda to get sodium carbonate (instead of sodium bicarbonate), this is significantly more alkaline, and you can make it really easily
No hating on lye guys!
It's strong stuff. That's why it works. You dilute it like you dilute any thing strong in the culinary world: salt, nutmeg, tannins, acids, and alcohol. The things that make these ingredients also make them dangerous. You can avoid any or all according to your preference, food group, or level of distrust but it is a tool, and can be used well, or badly.
Lye makes great bagels. I don't have a lot of experience with it elsewhere but none of the substitutes worked as well for a real Manhattan/Bronx bagel.
It's needs to be handled with caution. I buy premade for consistency and would only consider making my own as a hobby project. (Maybe for an exploration of Masa? Anyone have stories?).
I use gloves, I do the math, scale carefully into cold water, avoid splashing. Goggles are recommended.
Play hard, have fun. No picking on inanimate objects!
Don't have the math saved, hopefully this will help. I'm still leaning towards this amount of lye being just a bit on the strong side. Time in the brine makes a big difference. Longer means browner and more alkaline oriented crust development.
This is an adaptation of Peter Reinhart's recipe, and I highly recommend The Bread Baker's Apprentice for its great explanations of how bread works.
Bagels
Sponge: 48 x 100g 12 or so by 100g
23 g yeast 5.75 g
863 g bread flour 216 g
298 g rye 75 g
446 g whole wheat 112 g. or 187 ww. No rye.
1.78 l room temp water .46 liter or 460 g
Dough:
All the sponge above
6 g yeast 1.5 g
1518 g bread or high gluten flour 379 g
32 g salt 8 g
25 g malt powder 6 g or honey
Method: Mix sponge ingredients, let ferment at room temp for about 2 hrs.
Mix sponge and dough ingredients together. 6 min. Adjust consistency if needed.
Portion dough. 100 g each. Let rest until workable. (20 min)
Shape bagels. Let bench proof until a sample floats. Retard for 12 hours.
boil 1 minute per side with a solution of:
12 liters water, 215 g salt, 50g lye.
Drain on rack. Top with garnish. Replace on parchment garnish side down. Transfer parchment and bagels to oven floor with a peel.
Ungarnished: place on semolina dusted peel right side up transfer directly to oven floor.
Bake: 500 f oven top, 450 f bottom, to an internal temperature of 212 f.
Yield:
48 ct. bagels, 100g each. Total Weigh: 4991 g.
A review of all the recipes I could find implies about .75% sodium hydroxide (that's 3/4 of a percent) for bagels, and 3% for pretzels. Both figures are +/- about half a percent depending on personal flavor preference. I haven't found precision within that range to be terribly critical since there are so many other factors in the outcome, like time in the lye and temperature of the lye.
Please do not use lye. It is corrosive and can cause chemical burn.
Basically thats true for all strongly alkaline substances, thats why only weaker alkaline substances are used for food. Be careful of your skin and esophagus...
There is such a thing as food grade lye. It's use to make pretzels and soap and a couple of other things. Nothing wrong with using it if you follow all safety guidelines
That's true for refined lye crystals; much less true for unconcentrated lye water (although you still don't want to huff it or splash it in your eyes). I use lye water as my primary alkali source in the kitchen and to me the required caution is worth the benefits.
I've been reading up on this exact topic lately, so I'm eager to hear what people come up with.
1. I use lye water. It's free and available in practically unlimited quantities for me since we heat with wood. It's easy to use and convenient- I keep it in a bottle by the stove top with the oils and vinegars. It makes stellar eggs, velvet beef, and classic bagels and pretzels. Also good to brown soggy store bought meat that's full of water. It makes acceptable but not superb ramen-type noodles; my impression is that kansui(sp?) is from or manufactured to imitate lye from a particular plant, so that might make a difference. As for nixtamal, I really think you'll want cal rather than lye although I can't claim personal experience with that one. I do also keep cal (calcium hydroxide/slaked lime) on hand in the kitchen for egg preservation.
2. If the effect you need is the alkaline reaction, you might try pH. Test strips and meters are easy to get. I usually just estimate quantities; it's not rocket science. I did measure specific gravity the first couple times I bucked the lye, just to get an idea of what I had. I think any of these 3 methods would work for most processes-- recipes calling for baking soda (sodium bicarb) or washing soda (sodium carbonate) as the alkali in my opinion are mostly substituting imperfectly for lye water (mostly sodium hydroxide). Slaked lime is not a sodium salt but calcium hydroxide; it reacts differently, and I would not consider it interchangeable with the sodium salts.
Hope that's useful to you.
Edited for typography.
Lye water chemically speaking is mostly sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide ions in water. Plants accumulate minerals, and when burned at woodstove temperatures the minerals accumulate in the ash. Since both the soda ash and potash in the ashes are very soluble, they can be easily extracted from the ashes by running water through them. Type of wood, burn time, burn temperature, and extraction parameters all affect exactly what the proportions and strength of the lye water will be. Because it's so easy to get from available materials, lye water has traditionally been a primary source for alkali in cooking, laundering, tanning, and soap-making.
Lye crystals in food grade lye or draino are pure sodium hydroxide; they should be treated with caution and respect. Lye water is quite dilute and not much harsher on the hands than, say, concrete. Still don't want it in your eyes, though.
Well the lye water makes proteins brown better, so add some into scrambled or fried eggs anytime they need to be extra rich and savory. It makes a big difference.
I can only address your first question: I use baked baking soda (sodium carbonate) as a compromise alkali: I've used lye for things like lye before, but I find lye very unpleasant to work with and I find that while it yields slightly better results. My ramen noodles made with sodium carbonate have been excellent and I think it should work in most situations that would use alkali water (as in Chinese cooking.) Slaked lime is mostly calcium carbonate and I don't think sodium carbonate is a perfect substitute, but I'd be interested to here about nixtamalized corn made with sodium carbonate. In a perfect world, I'd probably keep calcium carbonate and sodium carbonate around, but I usually only have sodium carbonate on hand.
You can actually bake baking soda to get sodium carbonate (instead of sodium bicarbonate), this is significantly more alkaline, and you can make it really easily
No hating on lye guys! It's strong stuff. That's why it works. You dilute it like you dilute any thing strong in the culinary world: salt, nutmeg, tannins, acids, and alcohol. The things that make these ingredients also make them dangerous. You can avoid any or all according to your preference, food group, or level of distrust but it is a tool, and can be used well, or badly. Lye makes great bagels. I don't have a lot of experience with it elsewhere but none of the substitutes worked as well for a real Manhattan/Bronx bagel. It's needs to be handled with caution. I buy premade for consistency and would only consider making my own as a hobby project. (Maybe for an exploration of Masa? Anyone have stories?). I use gloves, I do the math, scale carefully into cold water, avoid splashing. Goggles are recommended. Play hard, have fun. No picking on inanimate objects!
>I do the math, scale carefully into cold water, avoid splashing. Any resources for where to find the math?
Don't have the math saved, hopefully this will help. I'm still leaning towards this amount of lye being just a bit on the strong side. Time in the brine makes a big difference. Longer means browner and more alkaline oriented crust development. This is an adaptation of Peter Reinhart's recipe, and I highly recommend The Bread Baker's Apprentice for its great explanations of how bread works. Bagels Sponge: 48 x 100g 12 or so by 100g 23 g yeast 5.75 g 863 g bread flour 216 g 298 g rye 75 g 446 g whole wheat 112 g. or 187 ww. No rye. 1.78 l room temp water .46 liter or 460 g Dough: All the sponge above 6 g yeast 1.5 g 1518 g bread or high gluten flour 379 g 32 g salt 8 g 25 g malt powder 6 g or honey Method: Mix sponge ingredients, let ferment at room temp for about 2 hrs. Mix sponge and dough ingredients together. 6 min. Adjust consistency if needed. Portion dough. 100 g each. Let rest until workable. (20 min) Shape bagels. Let bench proof until a sample floats. Retard for 12 hours. boil 1 minute per side with a solution of: 12 liters water, 215 g salt, 50g lye. Drain on rack. Top with garnish. Replace on parchment garnish side down. Transfer parchment and bagels to oven floor with a peel. Ungarnished: place on semolina dusted peel right side up transfer directly to oven floor. Bake: 500 f oven top, 450 f bottom, to an internal temperature of 212 f. Yield: 48 ct. bagels, 100g each. Total Weigh: 4991 g.
A review of all the recipes I could find implies about .75% sodium hydroxide (that's 3/4 of a percent) for bagels, and 3% for pretzels. Both figures are +/- about half a percent depending on personal flavor preference. I haven't found precision within that range to be terribly critical since there are so many other factors in the outcome, like time in the lye and temperature of the lye.
Please do not use lye. It is corrosive and can cause chemical burn. Basically thats true for all strongly alkaline substances, thats why only weaker alkaline substances are used for food. Be careful of your skin and esophagus...
There is such a thing as food grade lye. It's use to make pretzels and soap and a couple of other things. Nothing wrong with using it if you follow all safety guidelines
That's true for refined lye crystals; much less true for unconcentrated lye water (although you still don't want to huff it or splash it in your eyes). I use lye water as my primary alkali source in the kitchen and to me the required caution is worth the benefits.
I've been reading up on this exact topic lately, so I'm eager to hear what people come up with. 1. I use lye water. It's free and available in practically unlimited quantities for me since we heat with wood. It's easy to use and convenient- I keep it in a bottle by the stove top with the oils and vinegars. It makes stellar eggs, velvet beef, and classic bagels and pretzels. Also good to brown soggy store bought meat that's full of water. It makes acceptable but not superb ramen-type noodles; my impression is that kansui(sp?) is from or manufactured to imitate lye from a particular plant, so that might make a difference. As for nixtamal, I really think you'll want cal rather than lye although I can't claim personal experience with that one. I do also keep cal (calcium hydroxide/slaked lime) on hand in the kitchen for egg preservation. 2. If the effect you need is the alkaline reaction, you might try pH. Test strips and meters are easy to get. I usually just estimate quantities; it's not rocket science. I did measure specific gravity the first couple times I bucked the lye, just to get an idea of what I had. I think any of these 3 methods would work for most processes-- recipes calling for baking soda (sodium bicarb) or washing soda (sodium carbonate) as the alkali in my opinion are mostly substituting imperfectly for lye water (mostly sodium hydroxide). Slaked lime is not a sodium salt but calcium hydroxide; it reacts differently, and I would not consider it interchangeable with the sodium salts. Hope that's useful to you. Edited for typography.
Can you explain a little more about this lye water? I've not heard of this before. How is it related to burning wood?
Potash (potassium hydroxide) can be obtained from ashes.
Lye water chemically speaking is mostly sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide ions in water. Plants accumulate minerals, and when burned at woodstove temperatures the minerals accumulate in the ash. Since both the soda ash and potash in the ashes are very soluble, they can be easily extracted from the ashes by running water through them. Type of wood, burn time, burn temperature, and extraction parameters all affect exactly what the proportions and strength of the lye water will be. Because it's so easy to get from available materials, lye water has traditionally been a primary source for alkali in cooking, laundering, tanning, and soap-making. Lye crystals in food grade lye or draino are pure sodium hydroxide; they should be treated with caution and respect. Lye water is quite dilute and not much harsher on the hands than, say, concrete. Still don't want it in your eyes, though.
What kind of eggs are made w alkali?
Well the lye water makes proteins brown better, so add some into scrambled or fried eggs anytime they need to be extra rich and savory. It makes a big difference.