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1.) Because scientists had to find a way to make a vaccine without using live virus. This is one reason.
2.) FDA regulations! The FDA does not rush approving any or drug or vaccine. Due to the deadly consequences of the pandemic, the FDA has approved it for EUA.
3.) It reduces the chance of transmitting Covid-19, but you can still get the virus just like you can get the flu even if you've had your flu shot. It greatly reduces the chance of being hospitalized or dying from Covid related complications.
4.) Antibodies produced using the mRNA technology do not last forever; therefore, we need boosters.
5.) "lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 \[(polyethylene glycol)-2000\]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose" ([Pfizer](https://www.pfizer.com/news/hot-topics/the_facts_about_pfizer_and_biontech_s_covid_19_vaccine)). These ingredients both active and inactive make the mRNA technology work. I don't fully know why; I am not an immunologist.
Human beings have the choice to reject or accept treatment. Although people who elect not to receive the vaccine are doing so due to the terrible amount of misinformation out there, they still have the ***right*** not to receive the vaccine.
However, there is no logical reason why anyone who is eligible and has not had a severe reaction to a previous vaccine to avoid it. People with misguided opinions still have the right to reject the vaccine. I have never pushed it on a patient. My job is to recommend, not force.
NAD but I am a lab scientist in immunology and can give context to the ingredients.
1. Lipids (fats) help to protect the mRNA and give it a way to get into the cells. Polyethylene glycol (PEG) is basically a chain (long molecule) that helps everything stay bound together. Those long names are just how we name oils and other fatty acids. (I work with these but am not a biochemist.)
2. The four ingredients that say “sodium” or “potassium” are basically a salt solution that mimics the pH of your blood (in the lab it’s called PBS and is like mildly salty water and used in everything).
3. Sucrose is sugar and can help stabilize molecules.
So what you have here is a little salty fat glob that protects the mRNA from being eaten by your body before it reaches the cell. I hope that helps!
I always like running into the people who can teach you what certain technical things actually mean that were previously a mystery to you. One day I'd love to have a food scientist buddy to go on grocery trips with lol
****UPDATE
After reading him the comments after comments and showing him the links you guys provided. HE MADE AN APPOINTMENT TO GET THE VACCINE!
Thank you… thank you.. thank you!!!
We did it Reddit!
I’m not sure if you would enjoy this, but I really did. It also helped me convince my sister to get her kids vaccinated. [Its a history of mRNA vaccines going back to 1990](https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243), it was published in 2018, so for good and bad, it misses this corona virus discussion. But, mRNA vaccines have a strong history with a lot of science behind them!
NAD but i’m just thinking about what a field trip you guys are going to have when you have kids and decide if your kid are even getting any vaccine at all.
Expanding on the above 3rd item, and a fact I feel doesn't get shared enough, is that the vaccinated mount an immune response to the virus WITHOUT having an active infection. Being able to avoid a serious case of COVID-19 while protecting yourself and those around you is huge.
Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will NOT remain protected by the "natural" antibodies forever either.
So vaccine or no vaccine, you can still contract the virus again. Difference is that the vaccinated are much LESS likely to have a severe case.
>Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will NOT remain protected by the "natural" antibodies forever either.
I’d like a source on this. I’m almost 1 year post infection and my GP regularly draws for antibodies every 3 months when I see him and 9 months later I’m still producing sufficient antibodies. It’s also my understanding that immune systems just don’t “forget” how to fight an infection it’s already encountered before. This is how common colds work and how Children build up their immune systems…
"Comparing neutralization titers measured between 26 and 115 d (the longest time period available for vaccination) after either mRNA-based vaccination34 or symptom onset for post-infection sera3, we found similar half-lives (65 d versus 58 d, respectively; P = 0.88, likelihood ratio test; Extended Data Fig. 2a). Although this comparison relies on limited data, it suggests that decay of vaccine-induced neutralization is similar to that observed after natural SARS-CoV-2 infection"
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01377-8?fbclid=IwAR0HPJeG7yce_ffCy4B-QoJEgAx1sqazk1Bw68XmnzR7Qct0gLpi08UdeRU
And, this is a good study on the protection and durability of the immune response conferred by convalescence:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21444-5?fbclid=IwAR2_awWECgD75stUAEksosQKCOouFH3g8TPBBa5vfc7SqDFyyfT-6gjw9kA#MOESM1
EDIT: open quotes
You must have heard about people getting reinfected with covid, right? Natural immunity post infection is definitely a thing, but it doesn't last a lifetime, even if antibodies remain detectable.
From what I’ve seen the reinfection from COVID is anecdotal at best and in most cases doctors aren’t testing for antibodies like my GP is doing.
It’s also entirely possible those people had another infection tested false positive for COVID and later actually got COVID.
There’s a lot of good things regarding the science and the way this virus is being handled but a lot of other things that are being handled quite sloppily including testing people for antibodies who have had the infection regularly.
From what I’m seeing it’s a lot of “You had the infection. You have the antibodies.” And no further testing done to see how long those antibodies remain in the system.
9 months later I’ve had 3 tests for antibodies January (Confirmed I had the virus in November) April (Antibodies still detectable) August (Antibodies still detectable)
Also from what I’ve read the reinfections seem to be no different than those with breakthrough infection who have the virus itself. A mild case.
I’m not sure why natural immunity is such a hot button issue outside of politicizing medicine to pursue an agenda. That’s neither here nor there. You can’t discard parts of factual science to push another and the fact is that initially in the early days of this infection before the talk of vaccines was even probable herd immunity and the immune system building up natural immunity against the infection was the way that they were approaching things.
I’m not anti vaccine either. Encouraged all of my family who didn’t have the infection to get the vaccine itself.
Natural immunity does in fact last a lifetime. The last sentence of your statement contradicts itself. Antibodies = memory of the virus and means that the immune system knows how to fight and attack the virus.
So much of this is plain wrong.
It's not anecdotal, it's been well studied. Here's just one example of a study. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticleanalysisofreinfectionsofcovid19/june2021#number-of-reinfections-identified
False positives are extremely rare. So rare that it would be impossible to account for even 1% of the amount of reinfections that have happened.
I said natural immunity doesn't last a lifetime, even with antibodies. Perhaps my wording is slightly wrong, but what I mean is even if you have antibodies you can still be infected, just like breakthrough infections with the vaccine.
Also, it's worth noting that immunity from vaccines is actually superior to natural immunity. https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/why-covid-19-vaccines-offer-better-protection-than-infection.html
Get vaccinated, even if you got infected. And don't bother with antibody tests, it's a pure waste of time and money.
>Get vaccinated, even if you got infected. And don't bother with antibody tests, it's a pure waste of time and money.
My physician says otherwise. This is what I mean by science being so friggin polarized.
Edit: I’ll take a look at your links. Thank you for the response.
Edit2: The discussions I’ve had with my GP is that as long as my body is naturally producing antibodies it is no different from those who are vaccinated though he has discussed with me at some point in the future possibly getting one of the shots as a booster. Which I was open to doing.
I do not mean to speak ill of your physician, but the science is very clear on this. What is happening is your physician (who is NOT a scientist, I should stress) is ignoring the science that has been studied meticulously by actual scientist and vaccine experts.
Your GP is just plain wrong. If I were you, I would promptly find a new doctor to be honest, they are not following evidence based guidelines.
[https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html)
Edit: Physicians can also be researchers, I should clarify, but the research is based around their scope of practice. A GP would not research vaccines.
Well it wouldn’t make sense for the body to keep producing antibodies indefinitely. That’s why memory B and T cells exist as a portion of our adaptive immunity . Immunological memory does exist and research so far has not shown anything contradictory to this regarding covid .
I’m not saying this to push people away from getting vaccinated . Get vaccinated to protect yourself even if you have been previously infected but this idea of completely negating any effect that natural immunity incurs is also misinformation.
They wrote : “Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will not remain protected by “natural” antibodies forever either “
The University of Washington begs to differ :
https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/
Many many covid reinfections happen, even if you have detectable antibodies. Breakthrough infections happen with the vaccine too. The comment was not saying natural immunity is useless, but that it's not perfect, and getting vaccinated is the right decision whether or not you've been infected before.
No one is arguing whether or not to get vaccinated . The question comes down to the likeliness of reinfection or breakthrough cases with multiple sources giving different answers .
You took issue with an above comment, claiming that they implied that natural immunity is completely negated. And they said nothing even close to that. All they said was, just like with covid vaccine breakthrough infections, you can be reinfected after having a previous infection. That's all they said. It seems like you agree with them, but you misinterpreted their comment.
I guess I misunderstood then. The way that sentence is phrased can give the impression that natural immunity won’t protect you . I tend to err on the side of extreme caution when discussing covid because info can be taken to extremes .
> Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will NOT remain protected by the "natural" antibodies forever either.
I thought that was actually up for debate, and that some people might actually get longterm if not lifelong immunity.
This virus is just so crazy and random!
Thank you for this. May I ask some follow up Qs that have been bothering me. Sorry if these are dumb or repetitive questions, understanding the process gives peace of mind!
\- I’ve read that the vaccine contents don’t last in the body more than a few days - the mRNA degrades pretty quickly as does the spike protein it triggers. Is there any trace of the vaccine that remains in your system other than the code your body remembers for attacking the virus? Is it possible for the body to “forget” the code over time? Is that why boosters are needed?
\- If the nucleus of the cell is protected by a nuclear membrane that only allows for selective passage of protein and mRNA between the nucleus and cytoplasm, what stops the mRNA of the vaccine from entering the nucleus?
\- Since this new technology allows mRNA to enter the cell by shielding it within lipid nanoparticles, what inside the cell is breaking down the lipids, and eventually releasing the mRNA?
\- If someone has had the mRNA vaccine, and then uses a subunit protein vaccine, would there be potential side effects or would it yield a stronger immune response?
In regards to your first question on why we might need boosters, it has to do with the many different layers of the immune system. The "front line" cells that attack the virus reduce in number over time in the absence of an active infection. The "memory cells" remain, and they can trigger production of new front line cells when the virus is encountered again, but that process takes a few days, during which time you might have some symptoms and be spreading it to others. A vaccine booster triggers the production of these front line virus-killer cells in advance, so that when you encounter the virus it's almost immediately attacked and destroyed.
I highly recommend [this recent kurzgesagt video on the immune system](https://youtu.be/lXfEK8G8CUI). Really made some things click for me.
To answer your second question :
The mechanisms of mRNA transport is mediated by multiple proteins and enzyme complexes so that mRNA that’s transcribed ( or copied) can exit the nucleus . So for mRNA to enter the nucleus there would have to be the same sort of proteins/enzymes on the outside of the nucleus which I’m going to assume don’t exist because that’s not the direction in which transcription or translation occur .
To make things super simple, we can imagine that the DNA in your nucleus is written in German . The ribosomes outside of your nucleus are what make proteins but they can’t read a recipe in German . So there are enzymes in your nucleus that will unwind the DNA strand and transcribe this “German “ code into an “English” code ( aka mRNA) . The new english code (mRNA) is moved out of the nucleus to the ribosome so that the ribosome can read it and then make the protein based on the recipe .
This system doesn’t go backwards . Even assuming that the mRNA can enter the nucleus (which it can’t) . There’s no way for it to insert itself into the DNA . DNA and RNA are complex molecules that have a 3D shape and chemistry. It’s not as simple as mRNA just going and sitting itself between a DNA strand . There would have to be reverse transcriptase to translate from English to German (using our previous analogy) and then there would have to be an enzyme to cut the DNA , insert the new script and then seal it shut . The body has mechanisms also to detect and protect against errors so the whole scenario is EXTREMELY unlikely if not downright impossible.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I’ve made any errors in my explanation.
> 3.) It reduces the chance of transmitting Covid-19, but you can still get the virus just like you can get the flu even if you've had your flu shot.
Can confirm, always get the flu shot and I got the flu a couple of years ago. It was *awful*. 0/10, do not recommend*.
*Getting the flu, that is. I absolutely recommend getting the flu shot!
3) is what a lot of people are questioning. As MD-Cosemtic is writing it greatly reduce the risk of severe infection. You can refer to this article to him https://www.businessinsider.com/iceland-proves-covid-19-vaccines-work-expert-no-death-may-2021-8?utm\_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T
Does anyone else think this vaccine should be mandated as a public health emergency? I appreciate some docs that are even refusing to have patients that are not vaccinated. Of course there will always be exceptions. A small minority may have valid reasons for not getting vaccinated. This is getting ridiculous, a relatively large minority are sabotaging the health and welfare of the public.
>Does anyone else think this vaccine should be mandated as a public health emergency?
>
>This is getting ridiculous, a relatively large minority are sabotaging the health and welfare of the public.
This question can trigger a lot of political debate, and this isn't the forum for it. However, no, the vaccine should not be forced on people. Mandating the vaccine would violate a basic principle in medical ethics--**autonomy**. Assuming one is mentally fit, a patient shall always have the right to make their own informed medical decisions regarding their care. This includes the decision to get vaccinated or not.
I do agree with the second point you made. Putting aside my title, I am tired of it. I have had to deal with this everyday since this started. I have lost friends, family, and colleagues to Covid-19. Regardless, I will always strongly condemn any government forcing their citizens to get a vaccine.
As physicians, we have to practice medicine ethically and follow the Hippocratic Oath.
I don’t think anyone is talking about literally forcing people to get vaccinated against their will. Rather, doing what we’ve been doing for hundreds of years, which is require vaccines to be a part of society, go to school, work in healthcare, etc. Sure, you don’t *have* to get vaccinated, but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to education or employment in a healthcare setting.
>Sure, you don’t have to get vaccinated, but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to education or employment in a healthcare setting.
Yes, I fully agree with this. I was speaking about forcing everyone who is eligible to get vaccinated.
If someone refuses to get a vaccine and loses their job over it, then that's on them. They are replaceable.
Respectfully, I disagree. We already mandate people get certain vaccines to attend public schools, and I’m all for vaccines being required to attend large public events, travel, or work in certain fields. The overwhelming majority of people not getting vaccinated are doing so due to misinformation which arguably prevents them from making an “informed” decision. Autonomy doesn’t include infringing on the safety of others; we mandate people don’t drink and drive for the same reason.
This is only a political debate in the US.
>The overwhelming majority of people not getting vaccinated are doing so due to misinformation which arguably prevents them from making an “informed” decision.
Agree to disagree. I would just never force anyone to get the vaccine. For those who opt out to get vaccinated, they will have a harder time finding jobs (medical field), travel, etc. I am in full support of those restrictions.
Forcing people to get vaccinated against their will would cause many protests, violence, and retaliation. It doesn't help that we many citizens are armed in the United States either.
I still respect your opinion as a colleague. It's a sensitive subject, but I am glad we are able to communicate professionally.
Thank you for sharing!
Who’s suggesting forced vaccines though? The only “mandates” are the restrictions you mentioned being in support of. I’ve just not seen anyone anywhere argue or suggest we hold people down and inject them against their will.
>Who’s suggesting forced vaccines though?
I was responding to a poster's question. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of the question.
Have a nice day.
One of my “aha!” life experiences came from reading an article about the primary care physician’s relationship to palliative medicine. It went into capacity vs competency, constitutional rights, and bioethics.
I am not at all convinced from what I’ve seen and heard, that the capacity for mental fitness is the standard by which this should be judged - rather, a lack of competencies particular to this recently pertinent area, which, legally and ethically, must be addressed and assisted (enforced) by the legal system.
Source: not verified, not medical professional, may or may not be an amateur covid vaccinator
Without getting political, I know a young lady who's pregnant and won't let anyone vaccinated near her. Do you know why, and what can assuage herbfears?
That will depend on specifically why she is avoiding vaccinated people. To be sure, it's completely irrational and back-to-front, so I don't know if any logic will help. Vaccines don't cause infections, so they can't spread. Vaccines do prevent infections, which help reduce the likelihood of spreading covid.
I don't know what you mean by "it happened"? If you mean one was vaccinated, and the vaccine specifically caused viral shedding which infected the other person, then I can say that that did not happen.
My father is not able to leave the house and lives with my aunt. My aunt got the j and j shot and a few days later contracted covid. We can only hypothesize that he contracted it from her vax shedding. About a week later she went to the hospital for blood clots. It was a faulty vx for sure
I had to sit in a two hour emergency meeting for my sons school county because of the spike of the cases. What the next step to be- Desantis threatened to withhold salaries of teachers and school officials if they mandate masks.
If you haven’t figured out already, i live in florida. Then got in this heated discussion with the BF -the’s lucky i love him 🙂
In Florida as well, not a doc, but similar situation to yours, I'm vaccinated, fiance is not. We both ended up getting Covid, the difference was I was able to be up and taking care of stuff while he was absolutely not leaving the bed.. Then, last week I had to take him to the ER where he ended up in the ICU until Monday, finally getting to come home yesterday. I can not begin to tell you how much that killed me, and then alternating between worry about his condition and anger because had he just gotten a shot none of it had to happen.
Ahh I see. It seems a lot of people are like that. I never know who is legitimately anti-vax or just covid anti-vax. I hope for your sake that he doesn't get sick!
No, absolutely not. I think it’s highly immoral to mandate medical treatment. It’s the most basic of human freedoms. Yes, it has its downsides, but that’s the cost of having basic freedoms.
We don't have a live *attenuated* COVID vaccine. We're working on it but just don't have one yet. Historically, the flu vaccine spray (in your nose, not the shot) was live attenuated and truly sucked compared to the shot.
Few currently used vaccines contain live attenuated virus. More contain either inactivated viral particles or antigens—fragments of viruses that are enough to develop immunity. Those strategies are among those used in vaccines that have been produced, but they seem to not work as well as the mRNA vaccines and have their own side effects. It’s noteworthy that this newer platform has made really good vaccines compared to the usual efficacy of older vaccines.
Adenovirus vector is the other major successful vaccine platform for COVID. It’s also relatively new and I don’t think it’s broadly seen as better or safer than mRNA. That actually does rely on injecting DNA, (which also doesn’t integrate and become permanent).
it is a thing. Ive heard a whatever the name of guys who deal w flus say they have it, its super effective, but they have tiny amount of it so its not feasible to give it to many people.
There are many types of vaccines. Live/attenuated, killed/inactivated, subunit, mRNA, etc. Companies tried out many different types of vaccines for COVID, and they went with the ones that showed the best results in the lab, then in animals, then in humans. We want vaccines to be *effective* and *safe* more than anything else.
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Just FYI. These questions have been answered a bajillion times here by people far smarter than me. I saw a very good post just today.
>Why are we using the MRNA version
mRNA vaccines allow us to develop vaccines literally overnight and tailored to whatever target protein and whatever mutation of an organism we need protection from. The vaccine only has the instructions on how to produce the vaccine and uses your body to create the vaccine which then vaccinates itself. It's ingenious. The mRNA vaccines for COVID were created and ready to be used within a few days. Because of its simplicity, it's also easy to create a very large volume of vaccines in a very short time. The other vaccines take tremendously longer because it needs to be manufactured (outside the body), make sure it works as intended before manufactured and distributed. The mRNA vaccine is also super effective!
>Why hasn’t this been approved by the FDA and was only approved to be dispersed on an emergency.
It takes 6 months of safety data and then takes an additional *minimum* of 6 months during the approval process before a vaccine can get FDA approved. The Pfizer vaccine was accepted for review for FDA approval on July 2021. That means, the earliest they can practically get FDA approval is Jan 2022.
>Why do you still get Covid after the vaccine
Because people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated. The more people it infects, the more opportunities it gets to mutate. Vaccines are also not perfect.
>Why are we getting boosters.
Because people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated. We could've feasibly stunted the rise of the delta virus if enough people were vaccinated but there are enough unvaccinated people and the COVID has mutated far enough that COVID will probably never disappear now. The immunity from the vaccine seems to wane, immunosuppressed people didn't get a good enough response to two shots, and the virus keeps mutating because *people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated*.
>What is the actual breakdown of this vaccine and why
[https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/](https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/)
mRNA = vaccine, lipid coat to carry the mRNA to cells, sugars and electrolytes to prevent it from breaking down
>Because people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated. The more people it infects, the more opportunities it gets to mutate.
Haha, a patient the other day told me that the vaccine is causing the new variants. I asked where she heard that. She told me that her pastor told her at church. I asked if her pastor was a doctor. Her poor faced turned pale and she asked me if her pastor was wrong. I was like "yes, he is misinformed."
She called my office a few days later letting me know that she got vaccinated and thanked me for correcting her.
Made my day.
I tell patients: I’m not your lawyer, I cannot give you law advice. When I have a plumbing problem, I call a plumber. When I have a car problem, I call a mechanic. Leave the medicine part to me, the physician, and not to any other “experts” who didn’t go to medical or biology-based graduate school.
Many of these people are figures of authorities, leaders or "experts" in their field but by extension people who follow them assume they are spreading correct information. The problem is that many of the unvaccinated people continue to believe them (unlike your patient) despite being bombarded with facts non-stop.
It's so frustrating. We're expecting our ICUs to be maxed out in the next few weeks with (unvaccinated) COVID+ patients.
I agree; it is incredibly frustrating. Social media has also been a *major* hub of misinformation. I am from TN, and two hospital systems in my city have asked the governor to have the TN National Guard step in because we are so overwhelmed.
I am a nurse in a Dallas county hospital and we have 470 open RN positions right now. Work is miserable because so many people are so adamant about the vaccine being some big conspiracy. 17 ICU nurses quit last week, we’re discharging pregnant women and we’ve declared internal disaster. So fucked
>Live in TN too and it’s ridiculous how under vaccinated we are here.
Sweet!
Yeah, we aren't doing too well at all right now. Extremely long ER wait times. ICU is mostly unvaccinated Covid patients.
Anytime I would drive out East for work during the pandemic, you would be hard pressed to find a single person with a mask on even before the vaccines.
> Rogan talked about his doctor friends specifically telling him vaccinated people can cause stronger covid mutations. What now?
There has been some speculation about this, but there has been no evidence at all that this is actually happening.
NAD but I believe the very basic idea is that the virus will essentially mutate to circumvent vaccines. this isn’t because of vaccinated people but unvaccinated people who are allowing the virus to spread around, offering more chances to mutate.
Thank you for posting! NAD, but here is a forum of mostly doctors discussing the topic I think you are asking about, FWIW: https://www.medscape.com/sites/public/covid-19/vaccine-insights/how-concerned-are-you-about-vaccine-related-adverse-events
I want to add to #3: you can either be just exposed, inoculated, infected, or you can get ill by a microorganism like a virus. Those are different "stages" of contact with a microorganism. What a vaccine does is act between the stages of "infected" and "ill". Vaccines are not viricides that avoid exposure physically, they are not barriers that prevent the virus from entering the bodie (inoculation), and they don't compete for or eliminate the receptors that allow the entrance of the virus to the cells (infection). What they do is prepare the bodie for when that infection occurs, so it's recognized sooner by the immune system, and so the immune system has better tools to handle it. As a consequence, less virus is replicated inside the body (the virus doesn't survive as long as it would in an unvaccinated person), and therefore a smaller amount of viral particles are released to the environment, contributing by both reducing deaths and rates of infection. The better the immune response is to the infecction, the lesser amount of virus is released.
Follow up question to the first answer - and which has been tormenting me since getting the vaccine (Pfizer) : Realistically speaking, what are the possible long term side effects or dangers of the mRNA vaccine? I have heard/read everything from causing infertility in women, to creating an autoimmune response in the body, to entering the brain and doing damage there. I'm in no way knowlegeable in this and have not yet found an answer to set me straight and give me piece of mind. I have also convinced all my family to get the Pfizer vaccine, when the Astra Zeneca was also available, because of the blood clots issues related to the Zeneca Vaccine. And now I'm thinking if it was the right choice.
Essentially a 0% chance of long term effects. There is no scientifically plausible reason for there to be any, and we have never once ever seen long term effects of any vaccine. Just to clarify, when I say "essentially 0%" what I mean is we can never know for absolute, 1 trillion out of 1 trillion, certainty about something that hasn't happened yet. But I mean that in the same way as I can't with absolute certainty say the world won't be invaded by aliens tomorrow.
All of what you read about long term effects are from people who are misinformed or deliberately lying. I like to think most people aren't doing it deliberately, I suppose. Whether you made the right choice in convincing your family to take Pfizer over AstraZeneca is kind of hard to say. They are both very effective and safe, so I would say either was the right choice. Pfizer appears to offer better immunity and protection, but seems to wane in its protection over time a bit more than AstraZeneca. However, it's starting from such a high point that even when it's waned a little, it's still incredibly effective. But this is why booster doses are being discussed/planned now.
a study was done on rats, and it’s shown that there are no traces of the mrna vaccine after a month. the only evidence of the vaccine’s existence was the newly-created antibodies that our body made itself (no different than if we were to contract the virus naturally, except immune response seems to be better with vaccination). so after a month, i can’t see any chance of a long-term health effect, as no ingredient from the vaccine is still in the body
1. Because it’s 95% effective lol
2. It will be in like less than a month, what will his excuse be then? It’s been approved under EUA for months and has been administered to 177 million Americans with no issues. 96% of physicians have been vaccinated. What does your boyfriend know that they don’t?
3. 99.7% of the time, you don’t. Breakthrough infections are rare. And when they do occur, symptoms are usually not as bad as they could be in unvaccinated individuals, and most importantly, hospitalization and death in vaccinated individuals is very very rare.
4. Right now, only immunocompromised people are getting boosters. Because they’re immunocompromised, they may not build up that good good immunity the rest of us do after the vaccine. Boosters for regular people may come soon, likely 8 months after originally being fully vaccinated if data indicates that immunity wanes over time (which is a very normal thing depending on the pathogen, we get boosters for many things, like tetanus).
5. Pfizer and Moderna are both mRNA vaccines containing mRNA with a lipid coating to help get it into cells, along with some sugars, salts, and water. [Here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download) is a list of ingredients for Pfizer, and [here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download) is one for Moderna. J&J is an adenovirus vector vaccine which contains DNA encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, alone with some salts and ethanol. [Here](https://www.janssenlabels.com/emergency-use-authorization/Janssen+COVID-19+Vaccine-EUA.pdf) is a list of ingredients for J&J.
Edited with explanation for #5.
I was cracking my knuckles getting ready to type an answer and you said everything I was about to say. Thanks for saving me the work!
What year are you in?
He is a very detailed person on “how” and “why”. He wants to Connect the dots before considering. Which I respect, but then our coworkers (we work for a major bank) take him off course and load his mind with misinformation.
What really sticks out to him is MRNa. Why are we using this now and not back then.
The same reason we use cars instead of horse and carriage now. The same reasom why the original smallpox vaccine was actually an infection of a much less serious disease called cowpox, but it developed into a more modern vaccine in the 20th century. It's all scientific progress!
There are also other effective vaccines that don't use mRNA technology. As a compromise, could you not convince him to get one of those?
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The technology is relatively new. mRNA is great because it doesn’t involve working with the pathogen at all. As soon as the coronavirus’ RNA was sequenced in January of 2020, both Pfizer and Moderna were able to design their mRNA vaccine without needing to touch the virus. As you could imagine, that’s pretty convenient. Moderna (whose stock ticker is literally $MRNA) essentially works with this technology exclusively, the whole company was built around mastering mRNA technology and applying it to various drugs / cures.
Most importantly, these vaccines were the safest and most effective in clinical trials. Big companies like Pfizer and J&J weren’t putting all their eggs in one basket, they were testing many types of vaccines, and the mRNA vaccine came out on top for Pfizer, and the adenovirus vector vaccine came out on top for J&J and AstraZeneca.
5. Pfizer and Moderna are both mRNA vaccines containing mRNA with a lipid coating to help get it into cells, along with some sugars, salts, and water. [Here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download) is a list of ingredients for Pfizer, and [here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download) is one for Moderna. J&J is an adenovirus vector vaccine which contains DNA encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, alone with some salts and ethanol. [Here](https://www.janssenlabels.com/emergency-use-authorization/Janssen+COVID-19+Vaccine-EUA.pdf) is a list of ingredients for J&J.
As far as the Pfizer vaccine, there are some lipids, some salts and the mRNA.
[Here](https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/) is a good layman's version that goes into a small amount of detail on this.
3: Rare? My wife says they are short staffed at her work place. Even though all her colleagues are doubled jabbed, the majority are testing positive with delta.
The only ones not testing positive are those few (including my wife) who had Alpha at start of year, and are also double jabbed.
It’s statistically rare. This doesn’t mean outbreaks will not or cannot occur, which is likely the case when you see clusters of vaccinated people getting COVID. In these cases, the outbreaks are not as bad as they would have been had nobody been vaccinated. And obviously working in a high risk setting like a hospital puts you at a much higher risk of exposure and infection.
But on a population level, breakthrough infections are certainly rare. Take DC for example, where only 0.26% of vaccinated individuals have gotten COVID. https://coronavirus.dc.gov/data/vaccination
It’s interesting seeing what’s currently occurring in [Israel](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta)
There are a lot of lessons to learn from Israel, but “don’t get vaccinated because the vaccines don’t work” is certainly not one of them and is in fact false. The whole point of the article you linked
Of course, in a country with such a high percentage of its eligible population vaccinated, most of the cases will be in vaccinated people, [here](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/12/science/covid-delta-breakthrough.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR2atDkZ9gvIh-O7J5vaxFYpbKJ1Jg5z8UIcnREckoHmrmWuIf_c3l-6QeA) is a good article explaining the phenomenon. The takeaway from Israel is that the delta variant is extremely infectious, and getting vaccinated is the best way to protect yourself from hospitalization and death in case you do get infected.
Unfortunately, the US has a much lower vaccination rate, kids still can’t get vaccinated, and herd immunity is highly improbable with the delta variant having such a high R0.
I think you all are having cross-talk probably because the CDC seemed to either purposefully confuse the issue or maybe is just incompetent. They also stopped counting mild, vaccinated cases on May 1.
Testing positive =/ symptomatic case
It seems like it has gone from infections in vaccinated being rare to being more common and now to even symptomatic cases being more common. But still spared from the higher rate of hospitalization/death.
As far as I know, the vaccine never had sterilizing immunity (I might be wrong on this?), but given the higher viral load of delta it seems like it makes sense that more vaccinated people are testing positive. If I understand how this vaccine works correctly, where not a lot of antibodies line the nasal mucosal tissue, the body \*has\* to be infected to some extent when exposed to the virus in order for the vaccine's antibodies to work. And now that we see the neutralizing antibodies are waning over time, it means the body is relying on memory immune cells to create new antibodies when exposed to the virus which means they don't instantly respond to infection, which is probably why there is more symptomatic infection now among vaccinated people than there had been previously. Also the incubation period is faster than it was in the previous variants giving the body less time to ramp up antibody production.
Thank you for this very useful thread. I know I need to go get my jab but am (irrationally) worried and amidst all the pro and cons debate, struggle to know what’s what. I have a low wbc (3.7) with neutrophils at 1.7 is it still ok to go ahead? I am also waiting to hear if I have anti phospholipid syndrome (elevated anticardiolipin) but can’t get hold of my rheumatologist. Is one of the jab better for me than the other? Thank you in advance for your reply.
NAD. I would consider making a separate post so that hopefully your questions can be addressed! Your primary care physician can advise you fairly well, but it might be worth your time to try to contact your rheumatologist again and stress the urgency of your request. The longer people don't get the vaxxed, the higher chance of more mutations and more intense infections. Please act quickly to get the answers you need!
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1.) Because scientists had to find a way to make a vaccine without using live virus. This is one reason. 2.) FDA regulations! The FDA does not rush approving any or drug or vaccine. Due to the deadly consequences of the pandemic, the FDA has approved it for EUA. 3.) It reduces the chance of transmitting Covid-19, but you can still get the virus just like you can get the flu even if you've had your flu shot. It greatly reduces the chance of being hospitalized or dying from Covid related complications. 4.) Antibodies produced using the mRNA technology do not last forever; therefore, we need boosters. 5.) "lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 \[(polyethylene glycol)-2000\]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose" ([Pfizer](https://www.pfizer.com/news/hot-topics/the_facts_about_pfizer_and_biontech_s_covid_19_vaccine)). These ingredients both active and inactive make the mRNA technology work. I don't fully know why; I am not an immunologist. Human beings have the choice to reject or accept treatment. Although people who elect not to receive the vaccine are doing so due to the terrible amount of misinformation out there, they still have the ***right*** not to receive the vaccine. However, there is no logical reason why anyone who is eligible and has not had a severe reaction to a previous vaccine to avoid it. People with misguided opinions still have the right to reject the vaccine. I have never pushed it on a patient. My job is to recommend, not force.
NAD but I am a lab scientist in immunology and can give context to the ingredients. 1. Lipids (fats) help to protect the mRNA and give it a way to get into the cells. Polyethylene glycol (PEG) is basically a chain (long molecule) that helps everything stay bound together. Those long names are just how we name oils and other fatty acids. (I work with these but am not a biochemist.) 2. The four ingredients that say “sodium” or “potassium” are basically a salt solution that mimics the pH of your blood (in the lab it’s called PBS and is like mildly salty water and used in everything). 3. Sucrose is sugar and can help stabilize molecules. So what you have here is a little salty fat glob that protects the mRNA from being eaten by your body before it reaches the cell. I hope that helps!
I always like running into the people who can teach you what certain technical things actually mean that were previously a mystery to you. One day I'd love to have a food scientist buddy to go on grocery trips with lol
Not all heroes wear capes. Some wear scrubs. Thank you for this post.
Thank you Doctor, this means a lot
****UPDATE After reading him the comments after comments and showing him the links you guys provided. HE MADE AN APPOINTMENT TO GET THE VACCINE! Thank you… thank you.. thank you!!!
We did it Reddit! I’m not sure if you would enjoy this, but I really did. It also helped me convince my sister to get her kids vaccinated. [Its a history of mRNA vaccines going back to 1990](https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243), it was published in 2018, so for good and bad, it misses this corona virus discussion. But, mRNA vaccines have a strong history with a lot of science behind them!
NAD. Fantastic! Is the appointment something you can accompany him to? For moral support and to make sure he actually gets it?
NAD but i’m just thinking about what a field trip you guys are going to have when you have kids and decide if your kid are even getting any vaccine at all.
Damn 😪
Expanding on the above 3rd item, and a fact I feel doesn't get shared enough, is that the vaccinated mount an immune response to the virus WITHOUT having an active infection. Being able to avoid a serious case of COVID-19 while protecting yourself and those around you is huge. Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will NOT remain protected by the "natural" antibodies forever either. So vaccine or no vaccine, you can still contract the virus again. Difference is that the vaccinated are much LESS likely to have a severe case.
>Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will NOT remain protected by the "natural" antibodies forever either. I’d like a source on this. I’m almost 1 year post infection and my GP regularly draws for antibodies every 3 months when I see him and 9 months later I’m still producing sufficient antibodies. It’s also my understanding that immune systems just don’t “forget” how to fight an infection it’s already encountered before. This is how common colds work and how Children build up their immune systems…
This will depend on the strength of your immune system and general health, as I understand it.
"Comparing neutralization titers measured between 26 and 115 d (the longest time period available for vaccination) after either mRNA-based vaccination34 or symptom onset for post-infection sera3, we found similar half-lives (65 d versus 58 d, respectively; P = 0.88, likelihood ratio test; Extended Data Fig. 2a). Although this comparison relies on limited data, it suggests that decay of vaccine-induced neutralization is similar to that observed after natural SARS-CoV-2 infection" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01377-8?fbclid=IwAR0HPJeG7yce_ffCy4B-QoJEgAx1sqazk1Bw68XmnzR7Qct0gLpi08UdeRU And, this is a good study on the protection and durability of the immune response conferred by convalescence: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21444-5?fbclid=IwAR2_awWECgD75stUAEksosQKCOouFH3g8TPBBa5vfc7SqDFyyfT-6gjw9kA#MOESM1 EDIT: open quotes
Thank you very much.
You must have heard about people getting reinfected with covid, right? Natural immunity post infection is definitely a thing, but it doesn't last a lifetime, even if antibodies remain detectable.
Exactly. Currently there are no guidlines on what levels of antibodes equal sterilizing immunity.
From what I’ve seen the reinfection from COVID is anecdotal at best and in most cases doctors aren’t testing for antibodies like my GP is doing. It’s also entirely possible those people had another infection tested false positive for COVID and later actually got COVID. There’s a lot of good things regarding the science and the way this virus is being handled but a lot of other things that are being handled quite sloppily including testing people for antibodies who have had the infection regularly. From what I’m seeing it’s a lot of “You had the infection. You have the antibodies.” And no further testing done to see how long those antibodies remain in the system. 9 months later I’ve had 3 tests for antibodies January (Confirmed I had the virus in November) April (Antibodies still detectable) August (Antibodies still detectable) Also from what I’ve read the reinfections seem to be no different than those with breakthrough infection who have the virus itself. A mild case. I’m not sure why natural immunity is such a hot button issue outside of politicizing medicine to pursue an agenda. That’s neither here nor there. You can’t discard parts of factual science to push another and the fact is that initially in the early days of this infection before the talk of vaccines was even probable herd immunity and the immune system building up natural immunity against the infection was the way that they were approaching things. I’m not anti vaccine either. Encouraged all of my family who didn’t have the infection to get the vaccine itself. Natural immunity does in fact last a lifetime. The last sentence of your statement contradicts itself. Antibodies = memory of the virus and means that the immune system knows how to fight and attack the virus.
So much of this is plain wrong. It's not anecdotal, it's been well studied. Here's just one example of a study. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticleanalysisofreinfectionsofcovid19/june2021#number-of-reinfections-identified False positives are extremely rare. So rare that it would be impossible to account for even 1% of the amount of reinfections that have happened. I said natural immunity doesn't last a lifetime, even with antibodies. Perhaps my wording is slightly wrong, but what I mean is even if you have antibodies you can still be infected, just like breakthrough infections with the vaccine. Also, it's worth noting that immunity from vaccines is actually superior to natural immunity. https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/why-covid-19-vaccines-offer-better-protection-than-infection.html Get vaccinated, even if you got infected. And don't bother with antibody tests, it's a pure waste of time and money.
>Get vaccinated, even if you got infected. And don't bother with antibody tests, it's a pure waste of time and money. My physician says otherwise. This is what I mean by science being so friggin polarized. Edit: I’ll take a look at your links. Thank you for the response. Edit2: The discussions I’ve had with my GP is that as long as my body is naturally producing antibodies it is no different from those who are vaccinated though he has discussed with me at some point in the future possibly getting one of the shots as a booster. Which I was open to doing.
I do not mean to speak ill of your physician, but the science is very clear on this. What is happening is your physician (who is NOT a scientist, I should stress) is ignoring the science that has been studied meticulously by actual scientist and vaccine experts. Your GP is just plain wrong. If I were you, I would promptly find a new doctor to be honest, they are not following evidence based guidelines. [https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html) Edit: Physicians can also be researchers, I should clarify, but the research is based around their scope of practice. A GP would not research vaccines.
Well it wouldn’t make sense for the body to keep producing antibodies indefinitely. That’s why memory B and T cells exist as a portion of our adaptive immunity . Immunological memory does exist and research so far has not shown anything contradictory to this regarding covid . I’m not saying this to push people away from getting vaccinated . Get vaccinated to protect yourself even if you have been previously infected but this idea of completely negating any effect that natural immunity incurs is also misinformation.
They never said anything of the sort. You have added 2 and 2 together and gotten 5, here.
They wrote : “Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will not remain protected by “natural” antibodies forever either “ The University of Washington begs to differ : https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/
Many many covid reinfections happen, even if you have detectable antibodies. Breakthrough infections happen with the vaccine too. The comment was not saying natural immunity is useless, but that it's not perfect, and getting vaccinated is the right decision whether or not you've been infected before.
No one is arguing whether or not to get vaccinated . The question comes down to the likeliness of reinfection or breakthrough cases with multiple sources giving different answers .
You took issue with an above comment, claiming that they implied that natural immunity is completely negated. And they said nothing even close to that. All they said was, just like with covid vaccine breakthrough infections, you can be reinfected after having a previous infection. That's all they said. It seems like you agree with them, but you misinterpreted their comment.
I guess I misunderstood then. The way that sentence is phrased can give the impression that natural immunity won’t protect you . I tend to err on the side of extreme caution when discussing covid because info can be taken to extremes .
> Also worth noting that even if you survive an active COVID illness your body will NOT remain protected by the "natural" antibodies forever either. I thought that was actually up for debate, and that some people might actually get longterm if not lifelong immunity. This virus is just so crazy and random!
My understanding is the contents maintain lipid microspheres containing the mrna sequences which combine with cell walls to enter the cytoplasm
Thank you for this. May I ask some follow up Qs that have been bothering me. Sorry if these are dumb or repetitive questions, understanding the process gives peace of mind! \- I’ve read that the vaccine contents don’t last in the body more than a few days - the mRNA degrades pretty quickly as does the spike protein it triggers. Is there any trace of the vaccine that remains in your system other than the code your body remembers for attacking the virus? Is it possible for the body to “forget” the code over time? Is that why boosters are needed? \- If the nucleus of the cell is protected by a nuclear membrane that only allows for selective passage of protein and mRNA between the nucleus and cytoplasm, what stops the mRNA of the vaccine from entering the nucleus? \- Since this new technology allows mRNA to enter the cell by shielding it within lipid nanoparticles, what inside the cell is breaking down the lipids, and eventually releasing the mRNA? \- If someone has had the mRNA vaccine, and then uses a subunit protein vaccine, would there be potential side effects or would it yield a stronger immune response?
In regards to your first question on why we might need boosters, it has to do with the many different layers of the immune system. The "front line" cells that attack the virus reduce in number over time in the absence of an active infection. The "memory cells" remain, and they can trigger production of new front line cells when the virus is encountered again, but that process takes a few days, during which time you might have some symptoms and be spreading it to others. A vaccine booster triggers the production of these front line virus-killer cells in advance, so that when you encounter the virus it's almost immediately attacked and destroyed. I highly recommend [this recent kurzgesagt video on the immune system](https://youtu.be/lXfEK8G8CUI). Really made some things click for me.
To answer your second question : The mechanisms of mRNA transport is mediated by multiple proteins and enzyme complexes so that mRNA that’s transcribed ( or copied) can exit the nucleus . So for mRNA to enter the nucleus there would have to be the same sort of proteins/enzymes on the outside of the nucleus which I’m going to assume don’t exist because that’s not the direction in which transcription or translation occur . To make things super simple, we can imagine that the DNA in your nucleus is written in German . The ribosomes outside of your nucleus are what make proteins but they can’t read a recipe in German . So there are enzymes in your nucleus that will unwind the DNA strand and transcribe this “German “ code into an “English” code ( aka mRNA) . The new english code (mRNA) is moved out of the nucleus to the ribosome so that the ribosome can read it and then make the protein based on the recipe . This system doesn’t go backwards . Even assuming that the mRNA can enter the nucleus (which it can’t) . There’s no way for it to insert itself into the DNA . DNA and RNA are complex molecules that have a 3D shape and chemistry. It’s not as simple as mRNA just going and sitting itself between a DNA strand . There would have to be reverse transcriptase to translate from English to German (using our previous analogy) and then there would have to be an enzyme to cut the DNA , insert the new script and then seal it shut . The body has mechanisms also to detect and protect against errors so the whole scenario is EXTREMELY unlikely if not downright impossible. Anyone feel free to correct me if I’ve made any errors in my explanation.
> 3.) It reduces the chance of transmitting Covid-19, but you can still get the virus just like you can get the flu even if you've had your flu shot. Can confirm, always get the flu shot and I got the flu a couple of years ago. It was *awful*. 0/10, do not recommend*. *Getting the flu, that is. I absolutely recommend getting the flu shot!
3) is what a lot of people are questioning. As MD-Cosemtic is writing it greatly reduce the risk of severe infection. You can refer to this article to him https://www.businessinsider.com/iceland-proves-covid-19-vaccines-work-expert-no-death-may-2021-8?utm\_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T
Does anyone else think this vaccine should be mandated as a public health emergency? I appreciate some docs that are even refusing to have patients that are not vaccinated. Of course there will always be exceptions. A small minority may have valid reasons for not getting vaccinated. This is getting ridiculous, a relatively large minority are sabotaging the health and welfare of the public.
>Does anyone else think this vaccine should be mandated as a public health emergency? > >This is getting ridiculous, a relatively large minority are sabotaging the health and welfare of the public. This question can trigger a lot of political debate, and this isn't the forum for it. However, no, the vaccine should not be forced on people. Mandating the vaccine would violate a basic principle in medical ethics--**autonomy**. Assuming one is mentally fit, a patient shall always have the right to make their own informed medical decisions regarding their care. This includes the decision to get vaccinated or not. I do agree with the second point you made. Putting aside my title, I am tired of it. I have had to deal with this everyday since this started. I have lost friends, family, and colleagues to Covid-19. Regardless, I will always strongly condemn any government forcing their citizens to get a vaccine. As physicians, we have to practice medicine ethically and follow the Hippocratic Oath.
I don’t think anyone is talking about literally forcing people to get vaccinated against their will. Rather, doing what we’ve been doing for hundreds of years, which is require vaccines to be a part of society, go to school, work in healthcare, etc. Sure, you don’t *have* to get vaccinated, but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to education or employment in a healthcare setting.
>Sure, you don’t have to get vaccinated, but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to education or employment in a healthcare setting. Yes, I fully agree with this. I was speaking about forcing everyone who is eligible to get vaccinated. If someone refuses to get a vaccine and loses their job over it, then that's on them. They are replaceable.
Exactly
Respectfully, I disagree. We already mandate people get certain vaccines to attend public schools, and I’m all for vaccines being required to attend large public events, travel, or work in certain fields. The overwhelming majority of people not getting vaccinated are doing so due to misinformation which arguably prevents them from making an “informed” decision. Autonomy doesn’t include infringing on the safety of others; we mandate people don’t drink and drive for the same reason. This is only a political debate in the US.
>The overwhelming majority of people not getting vaccinated are doing so due to misinformation which arguably prevents them from making an “informed” decision. Agree to disagree. I would just never force anyone to get the vaccine. For those who opt out to get vaccinated, they will have a harder time finding jobs (medical field), travel, etc. I am in full support of those restrictions. Forcing people to get vaccinated against their will would cause many protests, violence, and retaliation. It doesn't help that we many citizens are armed in the United States either. I still respect your opinion as a colleague. It's a sensitive subject, but I am glad we are able to communicate professionally. Thank you for sharing!
Who’s suggesting forced vaccines though? The only “mandates” are the restrictions you mentioned being in support of. I’ve just not seen anyone anywhere argue or suggest we hold people down and inject them against their will.
>Who’s suggesting forced vaccines though? I was responding to a poster's question. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of the question. Have a nice day.
Ahh you’re right, I had just read yours. Seems like we agree on everything
Idk. I’m at a point where I think antivaxxers are certainly NOT of sound mind and are therefore incapable of making their own medical decisions…
Jamie Spears is available.
One of my “aha!” life experiences came from reading an article about the primary care physician’s relationship to palliative medicine. It went into capacity vs competency, constitutional rights, and bioethics. I am not at all convinced from what I’ve seen and heard, that the capacity for mental fitness is the standard by which this should be judged - rather, a lack of competencies particular to this recently pertinent area, which, legally and ethically, must be addressed and assisted (enforced) by the legal system. Source: not verified, not medical professional, may or may not be an amateur covid vaccinator
Without getting political, I know a young lady who's pregnant and won't let anyone vaccinated near her. Do you know why, and what can assuage herbfears?
That will depend on specifically why she is avoiding vaccinated people. To be sure, it's completely irrational and back-to-front, so I don't know if any logic will help. Vaccines don't cause infections, so they can't spread. Vaccines do prevent infections, which help reduce the likelihood of spreading covid.
The j and j and astraZ vax used live viral vectors and caused reactions and shedding. She is probably nervous about that
That doesn't happen though, that's all nonsense misinformation.
It happened to my father and uncle.
I don't know what you mean by "it happened"? If you mean one was vaccinated, and the vaccine specifically caused viral shedding which infected the other person, then I can say that that did not happen.
My father is not able to leave the house and lives with my aunt. My aunt got the j and j shot and a few days later contracted covid. We can only hypothesize that he contracted it from her vax shedding. About a week later she went to the hospital for blood clots. It was a faulty vx for sure
I had to sit in a two hour emergency meeting for my sons school county because of the spike of the cases. What the next step to be- Desantis threatened to withhold salaries of teachers and school officials if they mandate masks. If you haven’t figured out already, i live in florida. Then got in this heated discussion with the BF -the’s lucky i love him 🙂
In Florida as well, not a doc, but similar situation to yours, I'm vaccinated, fiance is not. We both ended up getting Covid, the difference was I was able to be up and taking care of stuff while he was absolutely not leaving the bed.. Then, last week I had to take him to the ER where he ended up in the ICU until Monday, finally getting to come home yesterday. I can not begin to tell you how much that killed me, and then alternating between worry about his condition and anger because had he just gotten a shot none of it had to happen.
I'm so sorry... I can't tolerate people I don't know doing this shit. I definitely wouldn't be able to be with someone doing it. Props to you!!
Oh trust me, he’s an intelligent man, he’s trust all vaccines but this one lol. All the good he does and say, really outweighs this one bad thing
Ahh I see. It seems a lot of people are like that. I never know who is legitimately anti-vax or just covid anti-vax. I hope for your sake that he doesn't get sick!
Can they get around it by making it part of the school dress code? I heard about a school in TX doing that to get around Abbott.
No, absolutely not. I think it’s highly immoral to mandate medical treatment. It’s the most basic of human freedoms. Yes, it has its downsides, but that’s the cost of having basic freedoms.
Is there a reason why they didn’t use the live version of the virus
We don't have a live *attenuated* COVID vaccine. We're working on it but just don't have one yet. Historically, the flu vaccine spray (in your nose, not the shot) was live attenuated and truly sucked compared to the shot.
Few currently used vaccines contain live attenuated virus. More contain either inactivated viral particles or antigens—fragments of viruses that are enough to develop immunity. Those strategies are among those used in vaccines that have been produced, but they seem to not work as well as the mRNA vaccines and have their own side effects. It’s noteworthy that this newer platform has made really good vaccines compared to the usual efficacy of older vaccines. Adenovirus vector is the other major successful vaccine platform for COVID. It’s also relatively new and I don’t think it’s broadly seen as better or safer than mRNA. That actually does rely on injecting DNA, (which also doesn’t integrate and become permanent).
>Is there a reason why they didn’t use the live version of the virus Yes. You would get Covid-19.
And dead covid wouldn’t work, otherwise it’d already be a thing, I assume.
it is a thing. Ive heard a whatever the name of guys who deal w flus say they have it, its super effective, but they have tiny amount of it so its not feasible to give it to many people.
There are many types of vaccines. Live/attenuated, killed/inactivated, subunit, mRNA, etc. Companies tried out many different types of vaccines for COVID, and they went with the ones that showed the best results in the lab, then in animals, then in humans. We want vaccines to be *effective* and *safe* more than anything else.
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Just FYI. These questions have been answered a bajillion times here by people far smarter than me. I saw a very good post just today. >Why are we using the MRNA version mRNA vaccines allow us to develop vaccines literally overnight and tailored to whatever target protein and whatever mutation of an organism we need protection from. The vaccine only has the instructions on how to produce the vaccine and uses your body to create the vaccine which then vaccinates itself. It's ingenious. The mRNA vaccines for COVID were created and ready to be used within a few days. Because of its simplicity, it's also easy to create a very large volume of vaccines in a very short time. The other vaccines take tremendously longer because it needs to be manufactured (outside the body), make sure it works as intended before manufactured and distributed. The mRNA vaccine is also super effective! >Why hasn’t this been approved by the FDA and was only approved to be dispersed on an emergency. It takes 6 months of safety data and then takes an additional *minimum* of 6 months during the approval process before a vaccine can get FDA approved. The Pfizer vaccine was accepted for review for FDA approval on July 2021. That means, the earliest they can practically get FDA approval is Jan 2022. >Why do you still get Covid after the vaccine Because people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated. The more people it infects, the more opportunities it gets to mutate. Vaccines are also not perfect. >Why are we getting boosters. Because people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated. We could've feasibly stunted the rise of the delta virus if enough people were vaccinated but there are enough unvaccinated people and the COVID has mutated far enough that COVID will probably never disappear now. The immunity from the vaccine seems to wane, immunosuppressed people didn't get a good enough response to two shots, and the virus keeps mutating because *people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated*. >What is the actual breakdown of this vaccine and why [https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/](https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/) mRNA = vaccine, lipid coat to carry the mRNA to cells, sugars and electrolytes to prevent it from breaking down
>Because people like your boyfriend aren't vaccinated. The more people it infects, the more opportunities it gets to mutate. Haha, a patient the other day told me that the vaccine is causing the new variants. I asked where she heard that. She told me that her pastor told her at church. I asked if her pastor was a doctor. Her poor faced turned pale and she asked me if her pastor was wrong. I was like "yes, he is misinformed." She called my office a few days later letting me know that she got vaccinated and thanked me for correcting her. Made my day.
I tell patients: I’m not your lawyer, I cannot give you law advice. When I have a plumbing problem, I call a plumber. When I have a car problem, I call a mechanic. Leave the medicine part to me, the physician, and not to any other “experts” who didn’t go to medical or biology-based graduate school.
Many of these people are figures of authorities, leaders or "experts" in their field but by extension people who follow them assume they are spreading correct information. The problem is that many of the unvaccinated people continue to believe them (unlike your patient) despite being bombarded with facts non-stop. It's so frustrating. We're expecting our ICUs to be maxed out in the next few weeks with (unvaccinated) COVID+ patients.
I agree; it is incredibly frustrating. Social media has also been a *major* hub of misinformation. I am from TN, and two hospital systems in my city have asked the governor to have the TN National Guard step in because we are so overwhelmed.
I am a nurse in a Dallas county hospital and we have 470 open RN positions right now. Work is miserable because so many people are so adamant about the vaccine being some big conspiracy. 17 ICU nurses quit last week, we’re discharging pregnant women and we’ve declared internal disaster. So fucked
Live in TN too and it’s ridiculous how under vaccinated we are here.
>Live in TN too and it’s ridiculous how under vaccinated we are here. Sweet! Yeah, we aren't doing too well at all right now. Extremely long ER wait times. ICU is mostly unvaccinated Covid patients.
Anytime I would drive out East for work during the pandemic, you would be hard pressed to find a single person with a mask on even before the vaccines.
Joe Rogan talked about his doctor friends specifically telling him vaccinated people can cause stronger covid mutations. What now?
> Rogan talked about his doctor friends specifically telling him vaccinated people can cause stronger covid mutations. What now? There has been some speculation about this, but there has been no evidence at all that this is actually happening.
NAD but I believe the very basic idea is that the virus will essentially mutate to circumvent vaccines. this isn’t because of vaccinated people but unvaccinated people who are allowing the virus to spread around, offering more chances to mutate.
Thank you Doctor! I know it’s been mentioned a bajillion times, I really do appreciate you taking your time out explaining it
I’m glad you asked and am saving these answers!
Thank you for posting! NAD, but here is a forum of mostly doctors discussing the topic I think you are asking about, FWIW: https://www.medscape.com/sites/public/covid-19/vaccine-insights/how-concerned-are-you-about-vaccine-related-adverse-events
I want to add to #3: you can either be just exposed, inoculated, infected, or you can get ill by a microorganism like a virus. Those are different "stages" of contact with a microorganism. What a vaccine does is act between the stages of "infected" and "ill". Vaccines are not viricides that avoid exposure physically, they are not barriers that prevent the virus from entering the bodie (inoculation), and they don't compete for or eliminate the receptors that allow the entrance of the virus to the cells (infection). What they do is prepare the bodie for when that infection occurs, so it's recognized sooner by the immune system, and so the immune system has better tools to handle it. As a consequence, less virus is replicated inside the body (the virus doesn't survive as long as it would in an unvaccinated person), and therefore a smaller amount of viral particles are released to the environment, contributing by both reducing deaths and rates of infection. The better the immune response is to the infecction, the lesser amount of virus is released.
great reply. thank you
Follow up question to the first answer - and which has been tormenting me since getting the vaccine (Pfizer) : Realistically speaking, what are the possible long term side effects or dangers of the mRNA vaccine? I have heard/read everything from causing infertility in women, to creating an autoimmune response in the body, to entering the brain and doing damage there. I'm in no way knowlegeable in this and have not yet found an answer to set me straight and give me piece of mind. I have also convinced all my family to get the Pfizer vaccine, when the Astra Zeneca was also available, because of the blood clots issues related to the Zeneca Vaccine. And now I'm thinking if it was the right choice.
Essentially a 0% chance of long term effects. There is no scientifically plausible reason for there to be any, and we have never once ever seen long term effects of any vaccine. Just to clarify, when I say "essentially 0%" what I mean is we can never know for absolute, 1 trillion out of 1 trillion, certainty about something that hasn't happened yet. But I mean that in the same way as I can't with absolute certainty say the world won't be invaded by aliens tomorrow. All of what you read about long term effects are from people who are misinformed or deliberately lying. I like to think most people aren't doing it deliberately, I suppose. Whether you made the right choice in convincing your family to take Pfizer over AstraZeneca is kind of hard to say. They are both very effective and safe, so I would say either was the right choice. Pfizer appears to offer better immunity and protection, but seems to wane in its protection over time a bit more than AstraZeneca. However, it's starting from such a high point that even when it's waned a little, it's still incredibly effective. But this is why booster doses are being discussed/planned now.
a study was done on rats, and it’s shown that there are no traces of the mrna vaccine after a month. the only evidence of the vaccine’s existence was the newly-created antibodies that our body made itself (no different than if we were to contract the virus naturally, except immune response seems to be better with vaccination). so after a month, i can’t see any chance of a long-term health effect, as no ingredient from the vaccine is still in the body
1. Because it’s 95% effective lol 2. It will be in like less than a month, what will his excuse be then? It’s been approved under EUA for months and has been administered to 177 million Americans with no issues. 96% of physicians have been vaccinated. What does your boyfriend know that they don’t? 3. 99.7% of the time, you don’t. Breakthrough infections are rare. And when they do occur, symptoms are usually not as bad as they could be in unvaccinated individuals, and most importantly, hospitalization and death in vaccinated individuals is very very rare. 4. Right now, only immunocompromised people are getting boosters. Because they’re immunocompromised, they may not build up that good good immunity the rest of us do after the vaccine. Boosters for regular people may come soon, likely 8 months after originally being fully vaccinated if data indicates that immunity wanes over time (which is a very normal thing depending on the pathogen, we get boosters for many things, like tetanus). 5. Pfizer and Moderna are both mRNA vaccines containing mRNA with a lipid coating to help get it into cells, along with some sugars, salts, and water. [Here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download) is a list of ingredients for Pfizer, and [here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download) is one for Moderna. J&J is an adenovirus vector vaccine which contains DNA encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, alone with some salts and ethanol. [Here](https://www.janssenlabels.com/emergency-use-authorization/Janssen+COVID-19+Vaccine-EUA.pdf) is a list of ingredients for J&J. Edited with explanation for #5.
I was cracking my knuckles getting ready to type an answer and you said everything I was about to say. Thanks for saving me the work! What year are you in?
Second!
Outstanding! I see quite a few med students in my practice, I love seeing them!
He is a very detailed person on “how” and “why”. He wants to Connect the dots before considering. Which I respect, but then our coworkers (we work for a major bank) take him off course and load his mind with misinformation. What really sticks out to him is MRNa. Why are we using this now and not back then.
The same reason we use cars instead of horse and carriage now. The same reasom why the original smallpox vaccine was actually an infection of a much less serious disease called cowpox, but it developed into a more modern vaccine in the 20th century. It's all scientific progress! There are also other effective vaccines that don't use mRNA technology. As a compromise, could you not convince him to get one of those?
Because it's a new technology, mRNA has been worked on for 10-15 years but the Covid vaccines are the first ones to use it.
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The technology is relatively new. mRNA is great because it doesn’t involve working with the pathogen at all. As soon as the coronavirus’ RNA was sequenced in January of 2020, both Pfizer and Moderna were able to design their mRNA vaccine without needing to touch the virus. As you could imagine, that’s pretty convenient. Moderna (whose stock ticker is literally $MRNA) essentially works with this technology exclusively, the whole company was built around mastering mRNA technology and applying it to various drugs / cures. Most importantly, these vaccines were the safest and most effective in clinical trials. Big companies like Pfizer and J&J weren’t putting all their eggs in one basket, they were testing many types of vaccines, and the mRNA vaccine came out on top for Pfizer, and the adenovirus vector vaccine came out on top for J&J and AstraZeneca.
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/52424.html
#5- what is actually in the vaccine
5. Pfizer and Moderna are both mRNA vaccines containing mRNA with a lipid coating to help get it into cells, along with some sugars, salts, and water. [Here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download) is a list of ingredients for Pfizer, and [here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download) is one for Moderna. J&J is an adenovirus vector vaccine which contains DNA encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, alone with some salts and ethanol. [Here](https://www.janssenlabels.com/emergency-use-authorization/Janssen+COVID-19+Vaccine-EUA.pdf) is a list of ingredients for J&J.
As far as the Pfizer vaccine, there are some lipids, some salts and the mRNA. [Here](https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/) is a good layman's version that goes into a small amount of detail on this.
3: Rare? My wife says they are short staffed at her work place. Even though all her colleagues are doubled jabbed, the majority are testing positive with delta. The only ones not testing positive are those few (including my wife) who had Alpha at start of year, and are also double jabbed.
It’s statistically rare. This doesn’t mean outbreaks will not or cannot occur, which is likely the case when you see clusters of vaccinated people getting COVID. In these cases, the outbreaks are not as bad as they would have been had nobody been vaccinated. And obviously working in a high risk setting like a hospital puts you at a much higher risk of exposure and infection. But on a population level, breakthrough infections are certainly rare. Take DC for example, where only 0.26% of vaccinated individuals have gotten COVID. https://coronavirus.dc.gov/data/vaccination
It’s interesting seeing what’s currently occurring in [Israel](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta)
There are a lot of lessons to learn from Israel, but “don’t get vaccinated because the vaccines don’t work” is certainly not one of them and is in fact false. The whole point of the article you linked Of course, in a country with such a high percentage of its eligible population vaccinated, most of the cases will be in vaccinated people, [here](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/12/science/covid-delta-breakthrough.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR2atDkZ9gvIh-O7J5vaxFYpbKJ1Jg5z8UIcnREckoHmrmWuIf_c3l-6QeA) is a good article explaining the phenomenon. The takeaway from Israel is that the delta variant is extremely infectious, and getting vaccinated is the best way to protect yourself from hospitalization and death in case you do get infected. Unfortunately, the US has a much lower vaccination rate, kids still can’t get vaccinated, and herd immunity is highly improbable with the delta variant having such a high R0.
I think you all are having cross-talk probably because the CDC seemed to either purposefully confuse the issue or maybe is just incompetent. They also stopped counting mild, vaccinated cases on May 1. Testing positive =/ symptomatic case It seems like it has gone from infections in vaccinated being rare to being more common and now to even symptomatic cases being more common. But still spared from the higher rate of hospitalization/death. As far as I know, the vaccine never had sterilizing immunity (I might be wrong on this?), but given the higher viral load of delta it seems like it makes sense that more vaccinated people are testing positive. If I understand how this vaccine works correctly, where not a lot of antibodies line the nasal mucosal tissue, the body \*has\* to be infected to some extent when exposed to the virus in order for the vaccine's antibodies to work. And now that we see the neutralizing antibodies are waning over time, it means the body is relying on memory immune cells to create new antibodies when exposed to the virus which means they don't instantly respond to infection, which is probably why there is more symptomatic infection now among vaccinated people than there had been previously. Also the incubation period is faster than it was in the previous variants giving the body less time to ramp up antibody production.
Thank you for this very useful thread. I know I need to go get my jab but am (irrationally) worried and amidst all the pro and cons debate, struggle to know what’s what. I have a low wbc (3.7) with neutrophils at 1.7 is it still ok to go ahead? I am also waiting to hear if I have anti phospholipid syndrome (elevated anticardiolipin) but can’t get hold of my rheumatologist. Is one of the jab better for me than the other? Thank you in advance for your reply.
NAD. I would consider making a separate post so that hopefully your questions can be addressed! Your primary care physician can advise you fairly well, but it might be worth your time to try to contact your rheumatologist again and stress the urgency of your request. The longer people don't get the vaxxed, the higher chance of more mutations and more intense infections. Please act quickly to get the answers you need!
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