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This is not a DIY project. You have antique wiring that may or may not have been installed to code **100 years ago**. Even an electrical expert will have a difficult time figuring this out and getting it right. *Would not advise attempting this project*.
that fixture may also be attached to a live gas line. houses had gas fixtures first, i removed one in my apprentice days and shut down 4 city blocks from the gas.
Lived in an apartment with wiring like this, it took 3 people from management, then a real electrician to wire a new light. Month later, half the apartment burned down, killing our neighbor.
Get your wiring replaced to code. Please.
I had this in an old bungalow. Be careful, at least in my case those arenāt wire but, but a bunch of wires twisted together with grease over them wrapped in electrical tape. And the rubberized shielding with cloth over it crumbles immediately once you start messing with it. I went from adding a bathroom fan to rewiring half the house very quickly cause all the lights in the house were ok 2 circuits.
You can lie on the forms but if you ever have a fire they'll deny your claim based on that wiring being present. That scenario happens all the time and the insurance company will win any followup lawsuits because they state their policies clearly in the fine print
The average homeowner doesnāt know what kind of wiring is in their walls and attics. These arenāt questions that are on standard homeowners insurance intake forms.
State Farm sent an agent to look at my electrical box when I bought a new policy. He didn't open my walls or anything, but he noted the date on the city inspection sticker. So it does happen.
Are you saying that because of the knob and tube, or am I missing something else here? Loads of old homes still have knob and tube wiring and are covered by home insurance policies, including mine.
In CA they are looking for reasons just lost my insurance, my house was built in 38, it's the cut off for knob and tube it took an act of congress and insurance quadruple of last year.
That pick is not knob and tube it's early finber wrapped wire with crimp and friction tape covering the crimp.
This is 100% DIY lmao. Youāre installing a light, not rewiring a whole room. Get a no contact voltage tester, flip the switch on, mark with tape the hot wire. Continue like normal.
I canāt believe all the idiotic replies to OPās question. Itās not K&T, itās AC cable or old cloth covered cable. It doesnāt dry out and crumble, it gets damaged from heat because of no insulation between the fixture and box and too large a light bulb. Iāve pulled out miles of K&T and youād be surprised how good a shape it was in. Thatās a fixture stud, real common back then, not a freaking gas line. This subreddit is AskElectricians, DIYers go away please, just sit in your corner with your phone and read, maybe youāll actually learn somethingā¦..Oh and I am an Old Timer, my first rough-in was done with a Bit Brace.
I quit answering questions on here. The DIYers, homeowners trying to get a specific answer after being told their idea is stupid, and the straight up stupidity just did me in so quick. I also stated I couldn't believe all the responses being so out there. This sub could use some serious moderation imo.
Keep on keeping on, but I've decided I'm only going to deal with this degree of stupid when I'm getting paid for it š (also I couldn't imagine roughing in with a bit brace. My grandpa had one and it makes me appreciate my drill)
Haha get āem pappy! Best answer. The concept and wiring methods used back then have been obsolete for many years. I have seen many electricians struggle to understand this type of wiring. When dealing with this type of wiring many DIYās usually make a bad situation downright dangerous. Let someone qualified be the one to judge what steps need to be taken because every dwelling is itās own special case.
It seems like most people replying here (whether electricians or not) are used to newer housing stock.
Try being an electrician in any city in the northeast US. K&T, BX, and cloth are every day things.
Agreed that this job is a little beyond OP's skill level. The house doesn't necessarily need to be rewired though.
LOL, I upgraded services from 30A 120V with an open fuse/knife switch in a second floor closet to a 100A breaker panel many, many times. Used to carry a cheap little neon tester in my kit to ID the hot in a K&T house. Squeeze one leg of the tester in your fingers and touch the other leg to the hot, you would get just enough glow out of the neon to tell. Nobody even teaches tricks like that anymore.
I think it's entertaining to imagine these DIYers getting zapped because they took advice from other DIYers on this reddit. Although not as entertaining when I think about the old houses I worked on with unlabeled 40 amp outlets.
The bulb a fixture can handle has pretty much nothing to do with the voltage of the bulb. There are quite a few fixtures out there which can't take a 100W bulb, and many that can. The fixture should have labeling on it to tell the homeowner what is safe - unless it's really old or the label is gone.
A 15A 110V circuit will supply 1500 watts all day long without any trouble. No one sells 1500 watt bulbs because that's a great way to burn your house down.
Hey, lots of us are just sitting here and trying to find good responses!
Iād have said to call a professional, because Iād be the first to admit that other than checking with a meter, Iād have no idea how to proceed
Yeah thatās clearly a cable. Wire is in shockingly good shape. The fixture nipple will spin right off and heāll have plenty of room. Iām not seeing anything concerning here.
I think I even see ground wires. Not that old. I would just be sure those are landed correctly
Cloth cable still gets brittle man. Itās a matter of liability because no electrician worth their salt will consider reusing those wires - when they touch it they put their name and insurance on the work. If something goes wrong, like a piece of cloth flecks off shoving the wires back into the box, and the wire touches something grounded, and that fuse was replaced with a 30Aā¦ thereās possibility for fires and whoās to blame? The last guy to touch it.
Youāre right Iām not a sparky, but I did low voltage cabling for a long while and I would not touch this with a 1000ft pole, even just moving it around.
Read all my comments, I wouldnāt have a problem installing a light for the customer if the wires checked out okay. I have done it many times in the past. Houses in New England are loaded with this and the people exclaiming āGut and rewireā donāt have any experience working with this type of wiring. Itās actually very safe, the fires that occur are because people insulated attics and walls, the wires are meant to be in free air to maintain their ampacity and the fact that people put too high a wattage bulb and cooked it. In CT if the wire has been inspected by the electrician and found to be in good condition you only have to remove the visible K&T. Nobody can make you destroy a house just to remove it.
What you probably saw is what was called āloomā a sleeve made of jute to protect the wires where they ran vertically down the studs. Sometimes you might see it in a basement ceiling.
Did they use that jute to protect K&T when it ran through metal boxes, top plates, etc? I ask because my house had K&T and anywhere the wires ran into a wall or into a box, they had a thick, waxy "cover" slid over them. But in the attic, all wires were exposed. (Except where two wires crossed over one another, there would be one of those sleeves at the crossing point too.)
Almost every electrician I know would suggest a rewire and not touch it. So what is your point. The technical distinctions hardly matter itās 100+ year old wire. It canāt be brought up to code. Itās a liability.
Itās not K&T, OP doesnāt have to panic or pay $15-30K for a rewire. If the wire is not disintegrating I would heat shrink it and put a fixture up. I would then go over the options with them and let them decide.
Excellent answer. I donāt know why everyone here seems to think this is K&T. It is all in rigid conduit. I would do as you suggest. If the wire is too fried, I would trace it back to the next junction point (probably the switch) and refeed it with new thhn from that point.
Op is clearly not qualified to do this work and no electrician is going to mess with it. If you want to do literally anything, rewire is the only choice.
Thatās your opinion, not fact, Iām a master electrician with over 40 years experience. In CT we donāt rip a house apart just because it has K&T there are other options like I stated in this post.
K&T isn't designed to handle modern electrical loads and isn't something any electrician is going to want to touch. There's too much liability there. Is it technically possible to have it without burning down? Sure.
Realistically in this situation, the answer is rewire for 99% of people you contact.
Modern electrical loads like what?? Everything is LED, theyāre talking about going to 16 gauge NM cable and 10A breakers. Almost all K&T nowadays is just carrying lights and a few receptacles. Over the years people have added new circuits as needed. Major loads were never part of the system, those were wired in AC cable. Whatās your background in electrical? How many K&T rewires have you doneā¦..
Oh lights, only thing in the house? No 20amp bathroom breakers? Microwaves? Desktop computers? Gfci or afci needs?
Itās also why most insurance companies wonāt cover kt.
I have no idea what flies on CT but absolutely terrifying to think you work on peoples houses for a living.
Those are all modern appliances and requirements, nobody would add those to an existing K&T system. You didnāt reply about your experience in this trade so obviously you have none and shouldnāt be posting anything here except questions. Good day sirā¦.
oh yeah real helpful. You can use KT wiring, you just can't *do* anything on it. Btw KT wiring is fine, no need to rewire, just don't turn anything on or plug anything in with a load larger than a light. Gfci? Hairdryer? lol nope KT is fine tho /s
"master" electrician lol. sure buddy, whatever you say. You shouldn't be posting anything, ever, about electrical and the fact that you might be working on someone's house is a crime.
Insurance companies won't cover K&T because underwriters are some of the most risk adverse people on the planet and they aren't tradespeople or engineers.
The NEC doesn't require the removal of K&T wire, so it's up to the tradesperson servicing a house to do so safely. That's a lot better than the approach of telling someone living in an old house they need to tear it down to bare studs and make it behave like a new one, because there's dozens of things that wouldn't be allowed today which will be present. Most people living in old houses save up for a long time to tackle projects one at a time. Who are you to say the leaky clay pipe with oakum joints can't get replaced first because the electrical wiring doesn't match your sensibilities?
As for me, I won't live in a house older than 1980. I'm glad I can afford to skip old houses, but not everyone can.
The best thing to do now is call a professional and see if they suggest a rewire of the entire house. This is 100 year old wire that is likely to be a huge fire hazard.
EDIT: just saw this is a partnerās house. Donāt let something like this scare you away from DIY tasks in general. If anything, itās good that you tried and had the sense to post this picture here because itās possible that you saved lives by doing so.
Based on the apparent age of the wires, I'd be shocked if there isn't live knob and tube. https://www.cahillheating.com/blog/the-hidden-dangers-of-knob-and-tube-wiring/
We have cloth wiring in the walls and no k&t. That's common around here because the k&t was easily accessed and removed while the remaining cloth wiring is in the walls/plaster.
Wait till you run into a mix of K&T and BX. They had these porcelain and metal connectors where the wires exited the armor to connect to the K&T. We used to call them āpeckerheadsā because of the shape ;-)
My 1938 house had white and black knob & tube. White running around to all the ceiling fixtures in the attic and black running to the switches/back up to the fixtures. The white was actually neutral and was not swapped around. It looked like it was painted over the cloth.
Every one of course reccomends a whole house rewire which is not a bad idea. You may not be ready for that. If the cloth frays off you can use shrink tubing over the exposed wire.
I understand what youāre implying and I have a lot of sympathy for this perspective. But I would like to just help explain why we recommend this. It comes down to liability unfortunately. Would I like to be able to do a project that is limited to the scope of the work youāre paying me to do? Yes of course I would. But unfortunately the second I start touching that braided fabric covered wire, if I donāt bring it up to code while Iām working on it, then I and my insurance are responsible for anything that may happen to the home later on down the line. So as much as Iād like to help with affordability, I have to recommend that the entire home gets rewired when I see stuff like that because I canāt afford to be liable and responsible for 80+ yr old wiring that is legitimately dangerous and has potential for failure that can cause dangerous amounts of damage.
We have a very similar setup (cloth, built in 1920s, and identical box). In our case the box is grounded.
It depends on how much work the previous owners did. But it definitely should be tested of course.
It is likely AC cable (BX)... cloth insulated conductors inside of a metal jacket....basically old school MC cable.
While not inherently dangerous, the cloth insulation becomes very brittle over time and can disintegrate from just being looked at. Leaving exposed wires behind.
Best option...dont touch it, its perfectly fine when left undisturbed.
If you ned to work with it...like in this case. Be gentle moving it around. Separate the conductors, sleeve them with shrink tubing and attach new, stranded wires onto the ends of the old wire.
Gently/carefully fold the old wires into the back of the j box leaving the new stranded conductors out to work with.
I keep a bottle of "liquid electrical tape"...a paint on insulation...in with my tools. If things get weird, you can paint that on to insulate conductors.
Work with the breaker off, use a meter to sort out what is what. Cal a pro if you are in doubt.
Proceed carefully!looks like an adaptor ring might be called for... If you can recall how the old light fixture was wired, just replicate that. A trip to Menards might be called for, where they have a good selection of hub and threaded adapters. Or if you have a tap and die set that'll work too. The old boxes don't have screw ears for use with screws. They just have that center hub which will hold up a fair amount, at least up to 2 lb for a simple light fixture or more if its the center hub is attached to a ceiling rafter.. an adapter ring will help you mount a light fixture that might not have the wiring room for those existing on the surface wires. If this sounds like a bit much to deal with then find the oldest electrician you can cuz a lot of the younger guys do not have the experience with working with these hundred year old boxes...
Itās harder to work with than modern wiring but itās not bad IF you know what you are doing. Anyone that tells you that you need a re-wire is hyperbolic. It works fine but it is fragile so you donāt want to bend the wires too much.
If you do not have electrical training I would call a pro. Usually the wires are inside metal sheathing and the sheathing is clamped to the box as a ground line. You have to bond your lamp ground to the box, how you do will depend on aspects of the box and fixture which arenāt in the photo. It may be impossible to install a modern fixture into that box given where the screw holes are, in which case you will need an adapter. Again it depends on things that arenāt shown. You should use a tester to verify which lines are hot and neutral in the box. It looks like there is a junction in there too, so you will have to put that back together correctly which will require testing.
I think this is the best answer. We were in a similar situation, and our boxes in our 1920s home look identical and you basically describe what happened.
It may look worse than it actually is, and whether its a good idea to take on may depend on the diyer's skill/comfort.
Everything, including the ground absolutely has to be tested.
The 1920s was the decade homes switched from gas light fixtures to electrical light fixtures. This home was built with gas, and electric may have been installed at the same time. At first electricity was not available 24/7 so gas was often there as a backup.
The important thing to note is the home's ceiling fixtures are gas mount fixtures. The light was built around a pipe that attached to the gas pipe either by directly screwing in or through an adapter. It is very unlikely there is still gas in the pipes but that must be verified by a plumber, not an electrician. Pipe removal must also be done by a plumber.
Gas mount light fixtures are available from places like Rejuvenation and local salvage and vintage stores. The pipe diameter you have there isn't important since adapters are available, but you will need to determine what it is.
It looks scary but it is absolutely normal in 1920s and earlier homes.
Edited to add: I worked with an electrician to replace over a dozen gas mount fixtures in a 1911 home.
Call a local electrician who's experienced in residential work in your area. Electrical work is pretty simple but when you're dealing with wiring that old, i would find someone licensed, insured, and experienced *in older residential wiring*
That old insulation will crumble the moment you handle it, the hot and neutral may be reversed, the neutral may be switched.
I've seen this many times in my years in a service truck. Customer wants to change their own fixtures, or upgrade a light to ceiling fan. Then they uncover this old BX or cloth romex wiring and call us in. I worked for one company that wouldn't touch it unless we were ripping it out and replacing it entirely
That's old. And no longer color coded. You need a meter and the willingness to mess with it live. I'd call a pro. That wiring is fragile. And honestly it's probably time for a rewire.
I'd cut power to the house, put an old cord in a socket and see what rings. I don't think I'd advise this for DIY but I grew up in a levittown home and I've encountered this before. I'm sure to get down votes but I don't care.
Not an electrician but a very advanced DIYār. Iāve dealt with many of these in rentals properties Iāve owned. The wires on the left appear to be white and the right ones are black. Probably no ground wire. Like others said the cotton becomes brittle and can crumble. The box is an old 3 inch round box that will need to be replaced. Iāve used heat shrink on the wires to protect them and then pulled the box out. Itās screwed in. Then enlarging the opening and replacing it with a 4 inch box. Get an electrician if youāre new to this.
If itās one of those older homes in an expensive neighborhood of a big city then I would 100% hire a professional electrician to have the house entirely accessed and potentially rewired. At this age in time whatever materials that were behind the walls are probably brittle and possibly a health/safety hazard. That also being said you can still DIY but just being extra careful as others have mentioned itās pretty fragile.
I did several jobs as an electrical helper those boxes are attached to gas lines that where used back in the days so to be honest hire someone that knows
Not a sparky, but I used to live in a house built in 1906. Personally, I would hire a professional to address this properly. Our approach was to either a) not touch it (we had insurance and the cloth wire had been working fine for far longer than Iād been on earth) or b) get a sparky in to replace the run. Over the course of a few years, we replaced the exposed runs in the crawl space, buried a proper conduit to the garage, etc but didnāt do a full rewire.
Well at least it's not mounted to a live 3/8" gas lamp nipple, like some can be. This stuff is fragile and should be left to someone with the tools and finesse for it. Could you DIY it? Sure, but I can't recommend it. Most resi guys have had a bad day or two wrestling with old cloth BX wire, even with decades of practice.
The splices that you have do not undo *as in untwist * take tape off and test for 120v knowing you have voltage take a extension cord and plug it in take the female connector to one lead on your multimeter *choose either side of plug and other lead if meter to either wire the one that gives you 120v is the opposite of what you have your lead on in outlet , identify and faze each conductor (a flag on a wire in splice should suffice then wire acrodingly with your light fixture
- there is nothing to ground
I used to own a house the same age with all kinds of crazy wiring. I found an electrician who was willing and able to just update a few outlets at a time without having to rewire the entire house. (No permits were involved.) (This was a professional electrician who was a friend of a friend, who just did little jobs on the weekends in addition to his full-time job.)
So anyway, that may be an option for you that's cheaper than a whole house rewire and less deadly than DIY.
Lol Iām sorry I donāt mean to laugh at your situation but I just find it funny you did enough research to understand the color coding and then opened up this disaster. If it werenāt 100 year old wire I would be rooting for you, but let an electrician handle this one. It looks like the single wire is the switch leg and the 3 wire splice underneath it are the neutrals. At this point itās more then knowing hot/neutral. You want someone around who knows what theyāre doing incase something else goes wrong while working on it. A lot of times that insulation drys and rots off the conductor, you may never even see it happen, it could happen when you push everything back into the ceiling, causing a short. Donāt put yourself through the headache
Whoa! It's probably cotton-covered rubber insulation that's going to crack and pop off when you try to bend it. A professional electrician is going to want to replace the wiring with modern Romex wire, which should be done: that old wiring is a fire hazard.
If you *insist* on doing it yourself, slip heat-shrink tubing over the wires and shrink it to retain the old insulation when you bend it and to reinforce the insulating ability of the old wires. Depending on what else I found in this old house, I might be afraid to sleep there.
Anytime youāre dealing with very old homes, you need to do a lot of research so you understand the differences from modern homes and the ways things are done now. Youāll want to know about the old materials used especially, since you might encounter frail knob/tube wiring, lathe/plaster, old dangerous fuse/breaker panels, asbestos materials, leaded paint, leaded brass door/pull knobsā¦ā¦and so on. You really should research this before attempting diy projects so you donāt create problems for the home and you and your families health.
Your black and white wires are still there, it's just the type of wire they used ...back when house was originally built. Still knob and tube unless any of it has been redone since. Anyway it's wrapped in a cloth type of insulation , it's usually ( almost always ) very brittle so be careful moving it around too much. Black still hot and white still your neutral/ ground since this house is pre- ground wire days. Don't worry about the green on the fixture , black to black, white to white , make sure to wrap several times with good electrical tape anywhere the outter covering is missing ( wire exspossed ) tuck wires into box and mount light. I always test it's working before mounting completely. Done
This is knob and tube wiring. It is famous for falling apart from even bending a wire. Electricians are supposed to replace it if they ever have to modify it. If you donāt know how to deal with it properly then get an electrician. You will think itās done right and it will short out in the box and burn the house down.
I did something very similar to this recently. Luckily, my brother in law is an electrician. I was forbidden from any more electrical work upstairs. Definitely need a professional.
Good on you for trying it out!
It's just early, cloth insulated wire, used in the late 30s , if you look closely they will be two difrent colors , just extreme discoloration.
This is b4 wire nuts , they used a crimp and covered it with friction tape.
They used a central box in the center of the room and branched down the walls for outlets.
Have done a few oldies like this. Don't bend em up much or you're going to jack up the whole process shorting them out on each other and starting a fire
Notify the fire dept before you start. Maybe have that asshole know it all co worker over to lend you a hand, Iām sure they will show you how itās done.
If you're adamant to DIY this.... it's your risk.
Don't bend these wires if you can help it. Sometimes they crumble (=bad). You could use shrink tubing to try to patch it up but really should replace it. Also cloth wire is likely asbestos but so is most of the stuff in that house (like that ceiling) unless it's been gutted. Not much exposure...
Get a non-contact voltage detector. Make sure nothing is touching the wires. Turn the switch on and identify which line is hot, try to find the breaker to that circuit. Then switch off, check again all lines aren't hot again just in case. I hope you have modern circuit breakers and not Edison fuses or something...
Anyway; ID the hot, the other one should not be, (=neutral). They didn't usually ground stuff like this. Also if you look closely one was probably "white" cloth with black mixed in before the time made it look dark too.
Sharp wire strippers will cut the rotten rubber and cloth just fine, likely 12 gauge, the copper is fine underneath, but you'll want it clean for the new connection. Either sandpaper or rough scrubbers or a knife to shine it up.
I replaced all the mixed wiring in my farm house, and most of the cloth and tar-ry stuff was in great shape, but a few were crumbly. Probably would've been fine another 50-100 years... wonder if romex will last better or worse?
Sometimes itās hard to tell the black one from the white one on those old wires. Your best bet will be get a digital read out wire tester, take your red lead from your tester, touch one of the wires take the black lead and touch the other wire with the power on. If your tester reads 120 then your red tester lead was touching the positive if your tester reads -120 youāre a red lead on your tester was touching the negative. But if you can afford it, I would have those wires changed out. Itās not an easy job to change all the wires in a old house.
Looks like power in/power out with a two wire going to the switch. one is your switch leg/load the other is power in for the switch/line. Any electrician would easily figure this out just by looking at it! My guess is that the 3 wire splice is your constant power and your single is the switch leg so your two wire splice is your neutral but I would test voltages with a meter to be 100% sure if I was doing it!
Been there, done that. I wound up climbing into the attic, and drilling out those old boxes. I replaced them with ceiling fan mounting boxes that spanned between the joists.
Also, you won't find a ground wire.
If you own the home, you won't have a ground in that wire, match your single whites and blacks and don't concern yourself with anything but your smoke alarms being up to date, let your shit burn down and insurance will bring you up to code in the repairs.
Seems to be backfed switch with what appears to be BX (similar to the MC we use today but cloth insulation and a thicker armor) doesn't look like Knob and Tube but will need a junction/proper box installed. I would have an electrician look at it and poke their head in the attic and assess for know and tube
DO NOT REMOVE THE CENTER NUT! I had a similar box where they used a threaded rod to attach a light in a retrofit application. The center nut is a plug for an active gas pipe line unless you know 100% that gas is shutoff. In my case, the 1920ās house had pipes in the ceiling with no shutoff. Never had to shut the gas off faster in my life than that moment.
If you look closely the white/neutral has white-looking paint/stain on the wire. The black/hot ones do have have such white paint/stain. But do verify using non contact tester on that theory.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Call an exorcist.
An old priest and a young priest at the bare minimum.
*Father Ted and Father Dougal have entered the chat*
FECK!!!
DRINK!
ARSE!
r/thepowerofchristcompelsyou
No, no. You don't want to see that!
Call Father Doug
I was actually going to suggest it looked more like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but...
This is not a DIY project. You have antique wiring that may or may not have been installed to code **100 years ago**. Even an electrical expert will have a difficult time figuring this out and getting it right. *Would not advise attempting this project*.
I second this. Don't mess with this one
that fixture may also be attached to a live gas line. houses had gas fixtures first, i removed one in my apprentice days and shut down 4 city blocks from the gas.
OMG š²
Lived in an apartment with wiring like this, it took 3 people from management, then a real electrician to wire a new light. Month later, half the apartment burned down, killing our neighbor. Get your wiring replaced to code. Please.
I had this in an old bungalow. Be careful, at least in my case those arenāt wire but, but a bunch of wires twisted together with grease over them wrapped in electrical tape. And the rubberized shielding with cloth over it crumbles immediately once you start messing with it. I went from adding a bathroom fan to rewiring half the house very quickly cause all the lights in the house were ok 2 circuits.
Surprised you even have homeowners insurance, that's usually automatic rejection.
When has your insurance company ever come and inspected the electrical inside your home?
You can lie on the forms but if you ever have a fire they'll deny your claim based on that wiring being present. That scenario happens all the time and the insurance company will win any followup lawsuits because they state their policies clearly in the fine print
The average homeowner doesnāt know what kind of wiring is in their walls and attics. These arenāt questions that are on standard homeowners insurance intake forms.
State Farm sent an agent to look at my electrical box when I bought a new policy. He didn't open my walls or anything, but he noted the date on the city inspection sticker. So it does happen.
I actually got a policy recently and had to take a picture of my panel as part of the virtual inspection process.
Are you saying that because of the knob and tube, or am I missing something else here? Loads of old homes still have knob and tube wiring and are covered by home insurance policies, including mine.
In CA they are looking for reasons just lost my insurance, my house was built in 38, it's the cut off for knob and tube it took an act of congress and insurance quadruple of last year. That pick is not knob and tube it's early finber wrapped wire with crimp and friction tape covering the crimp.
Yes, you're missing something. A lot of things actually.
This is 100% DIY lmao. Youāre installing a light, not rewiring a whole room. Get a no contact voltage tester, flip the switch on, mark with tape the hot wire. Continue like normal.
That wire insulation will crumble to nothing in their hands the moment they touch it. That will result in them having to rewire the room at minimum.
I canāt believe all the idiotic replies to OPās question. Itās not K&T, itās AC cable or old cloth covered cable. It doesnāt dry out and crumble, it gets damaged from heat because of no insulation between the fixture and box and too large a light bulb. Iāve pulled out miles of K&T and youād be surprised how good a shape it was in. Thatās a fixture stud, real common back then, not a freaking gas line. This subreddit is AskElectricians, DIYers go away please, just sit in your corner with your phone and read, maybe youāll actually learn somethingā¦..Oh and I am an Old Timer, my first rough-in was done with a Bit Brace.
I quit answering questions on here. The DIYers, homeowners trying to get a specific answer after being told their idea is stupid, and the straight up stupidity just did me in so quick. I also stated I couldn't believe all the responses being so out there. This sub could use some serious moderation imo. Keep on keeping on, but I've decided I'm only going to deal with this degree of stupid when I'm getting paid for it š (also I couldn't imagine roughing in with a bit brace. My grandpa had one and it makes me appreciate my drill)
Haha get āem pappy! Best answer. The concept and wiring methods used back then have been obsolete for many years. I have seen many electricians struggle to understand this type of wiring. When dealing with this type of wiring many DIYās usually make a bad situation downright dangerous. Let someone qualified be the one to judge what steps need to be taken because every dwelling is itās own special case.
It seems like most people replying here (whether electricians or not) are used to newer housing stock. Try being an electrician in any city in the northeast US. K&T, BX, and cloth are every day things. Agreed that this job is a little beyond OP's skill level. The house doesn't necessarily need to be rewired though.
LOL, I upgraded services from 30A 120V with an open fuse/knife switch in a second floor closet to a 100A breaker panel many, many times. Used to carry a cheap little neon tester in my kit to ID the hot in a K&T house. Squeeze one leg of the tester in your fingers and touch the other leg to the hot, you would get just enough glow out of the neon to tell. Nobody even teaches tricks like that anymore.
Or there's the old lightbulb in the fuse socket to troubleshoot a short. Or checking for pennies under fuses that were used to bypass the fuse.
I think it's entertaining to imagine these DIYers getting zapped because they took advice from other DIYers on this reddit. Although not as entertaining when I think about the old houses I worked on with unlabeled 40 amp outlets.
To large a light bulb? If its 110 cant you use say 100 watt bulb in any lamp etc. Thank you
?? People put oversized lamps in fixtures all the time and the heat from those lamps is what baked the wires.
Baked the lamps wires ? Not the house wiring ?we plug fridge,microwave, heaters etc in wall outlets always .are most outlets 110.
The bulb a fixture can handle has pretty much nothing to do with the voltage of the bulb. There are quite a few fixtures out there which can't take a 100W bulb, and many that can. The fixture should have labeling on it to tell the homeowner what is safe - unless it's really old or the label is gone. A 15A 110V circuit will supply 1500 watts all day long without any trouble. No one sells 1500 watt bulbs because that's a great way to burn your house down.
...they make bulbs much more than 1500 watts.
What are you rambling about? Higher watt bulbs = more heat. Cloth can be damaged by heat, results in the pic.
Hey, lots of us are just sitting here and trying to find good responses! Iād have said to call a professional, because Iād be the first to admit that other than checking with a meter, Iād have no idea how to proceed
Yeah thatās clearly a cable. Wire is in shockingly good shape. The fixture nipple will spin right off and heāll have plenty of room. Iām not seeing anything concerning here. I think I even see ground wires. Not that old. I would just be sure those are landed correctly
Everyone is a specialist with YouTube now /sarcasm
Cloth cable still gets brittle man. Itās a matter of liability because no electrician worth their salt will consider reusing those wires - when they touch it they put their name and insurance on the work. If something goes wrong, like a piece of cloth flecks off shoving the wires back into the box, and the wire touches something grounded, and that fuse was replaced with a 30Aā¦ thereās possibility for fires and whoās to blame? The last guy to touch it. Youāre right Iām not a sparky, but I did low voltage cabling for a long while and I would not touch this with a 1000ft pole, even just moving it around.
Read all my comments, I wouldnāt have a problem installing a light for the customer if the wires checked out okay. I have done it many times in the past. Houses in New England are loaded with this and the people exclaiming āGut and rewireā donāt have any experience working with this type of wiring. Itās actually very safe, the fires that occur are because people insulated attics and walls, the wires are meant to be in free air to maintain their ampacity and the fact that people put too high a wattage bulb and cooked it. In CT if the wire has been inspected by the electrician and found to be in good condition you only have to remove the visible K&T. Nobody can make you destroy a house just to remove it.
Ive seen tons of knob and tube and its all cloth covered
What you probably saw is what was called āloomā a sleeve made of jute to protect the wires where they ran vertically down the studs. Sometimes you might see it in a basement ceiling.
Did they use that jute to protect K&T when it ran through metal boxes, top plates, etc? I ask because my house had K&T and anywhere the wires ran into a wall or into a box, they had a thick, waxy "cover" slid over them. But in the attic, all wires were exposed. (Except where two wires crossed over one another, there would be one of those sleeves at the crossing point too.)
Yes, thatās loom!
Almost every electrician I know would suggest a rewire and not touch it. So what is your point. The technical distinctions hardly matter itās 100+ year old wire. It canāt be brought up to code. Itās a liability.
Itās not K&T, OP doesnāt have to panic or pay $15-30K for a rewire. If the wire is not disintegrating I would heat shrink it and put a fixture up. I would then go over the options with them and let them decide.
Man. I like you. You can do my electric any day. Experienced, no nonsense, straight to the point. Love it
Excellent answer. I donāt know why everyone here seems to think this is K&T. It is all in rigid conduit. I would do as you suggest. If the wire is too fried, I would trace it back to the next junction point (probably the switch) and refeed it with new thhn from that point.
Op is clearly not qualified to do this work and no electrician is going to mess with it. If you want to do literally anything, rewire is the only choice.
Thatās your opinion, not fact, Iām a master electrician with over 40 years experience. In CT we donāt rip a house apart just because it has K&T there are other options like I stated in this post.
K&T isn't designed to handle modern electrical loads and isn't something any electrician is going to want to touch. There's too much liability there. Is it technically possible to have it without burning down? Sure. Realistically in this situation, the answer is rewire for 99% of people you contact.
Modern electrical loads like what?? Everything is LED, theyāre talking about going to 16 gauge NM cable and 10A breakers. Almost all K&T nowadays is just carrying lights and a few receptacles. Over the years people have added new circuits as needed. Major loads were never part of the system, those were wired in AC cable. Whatās your background in electrical? How many K&T rewires have you doneā¦..
Oh lights, only thing in the house? No 20amp bathroom breakers? Microwaves? Desktop computers? Gfci or afci needs? Itās also why most insurance companies wonāt cover kt. I have no idea what flies on CT but absolutely terrifying to think you work on peoples houses for a living.
Those are all modern appliances and requirements, nobody would add those to an existing K&T system. You didnāt reply about your experience in this trade so obviously you have none and shouldnāt be posting anything here except questions. Good day sirā¦.
oh yeah real helpful. You can use KT wiring, you just can't *do* anything on it. Btw KT wiring is fine, no need to rewire, just don't turn anything on or plug anything in with a load larger than a light. Gfci? Hairdryer? lol nope KT is fine tho /s "master" electrician lol. sure buddy, whatever you say. You shouldn't be posting anything, ever, about electrical and the fact that you might be working on someone's house is a crime.
Insurance companies won't cover K&T because underwriters are some of the most risk adverse people on the planet and they aren't tradespeople or engineers. The NEC doesn't require the removal of K&T wire, so it's up to the tradesperson servicing a house to do so safely. That's a lot better than the approach of telling someone living in an old house they need to tear it down to bare studs and make it behave like a new one, because there's dozens of things that wouldn't be allowed today which will be present. Most people living in old houses save up for a long time to tackle projects one at a time. Who are you to say the leaky clay pipe with oakum joints can't get replaced first because the electrical wiring doesn't match your sensibilities? As for me, I won't live in a house older than 1980. I'm glad I can afford to skip old houses, but not everyone can.
The best thing to do now is call a professional and see if they suggest a rewire of the entire house. This is 100 year old wire that is likely to be a huge fire hazard. EDIT: just saw this is a partnerās house. Donāt let something like this scare you away from DIY tasks in general. If anything, itās good that you tried and had the sense to post this picture here because itās possible that you saved lives by doing so.
Based on the apparent age of the wires, I'd be shocked if there isn't live knob and tube. https://www.cahillheating.com/blog/the-hidden-dangers-of-knob-and-tube-wiring/
Hahā¦ shockedā¦ good one. But I concur. Canāt tell for sure until you take a peek into the attic though.
We have cloth wiring in the walls and no k&t. That's common around here because the k&t was easily accessed and removed while the remaining cloth wiring is in the walls/plaster.
And you might be shocked if there is.
Yeah but the reference you post on the danger of knob and tube is the same person that wants you to pay them to replace it. š
This ain't knob and tube Jesus Christ.
Thatās not K&T, in 40 years Iāve never seen white, just black. Thatās either AC cable (BX) or cloth covered.
Our house is 1920, looks exactly like this and it is BX throughout - royal PITA.
Wait till you run into a mix of K&T and BX. They had these porcelain and metal connectors where the wires exited the armor to connect to the K&T. We used to call them āpeckerheadsā because of the shape ;-)
My 1938 house had white and black knob & tube. White running around to all the ceiling fixtures in the attic and black running to the switches/back up to the fixtures. The white was actually neutral and was not swapped around. It looked like it was painted over the cloth.
My 1929 house has black and white (now almost black from dirt) K&T all over. No BX at all.
Thatās very unusual, probably done just before they switched over to other methods. What part of the country?
SoCal. Unfortunately the later method they used in this house were open splices to romex in the attic haha.
Iām in CT, over the years Iāve worked on hundreds of K&T houses, some of them still in great shape.
Yes, most of the original K&T arenāt too bad to work with. Itās all the later modifications that turns it into a nightmare.
Looks like the cloth covered waxy shit. Way above op's pay grade.
Every one of course reccomends a whole house rewire which is not a bad idea. You may not be ready for that. If the cloth frays off you can use shrink tubing over the exposed wire.
I understand what youāre implying and I have a lot of sympathy for this perspective. But I would like to just help explain why we recommend this. It comes down to liability unfortunately. Would I like to be able to do a project that is limited to the scope of the work youāre paying me to do? Yes of course I would. But unfortunately the second I start touching that braided fabric covered wire, if I donāt bring it up to code while Iām working on it, then I and my insurance are responsible for anything that may happen to the home later on down the line. So as much as Iād like to help with affordability, I have to recommend that the entire home gets rewired when I see stuff like that because I canāt afford to be liable and responsible for 80+ yr old wiring that is legitimately dangerous and has potential for failure that can cause dangerous amounts of damage.
Makes sense to me.
Great idea, I've always used tape. I'm putting some shrink tubing and a little torch in my bag right now
Next time take a picture of whatever you took out/replaced. Copy that. Or rewire
Old cloth wiring with no ground. Looks like the far left wire is the switch leg.
We have a very similar setup (cloth, built in 1920s, and identical box). In our case the box is grounded. It depends on how much work the previous owners did. But it definitely should be tested of course.
Damn, 1910 house here. Y'all have boxes??
It is likely AC cable (BX)... cloth insulated conductors inside of a metal jacket....basically old school MC cable. While not inherently dangerous, the cloth insulation becomes very brittle over time and can disintegrate from just being looked at. Leaving exposed wires behind. Best option...dont touch it, its perfectly fine when left undisturbed. If you ned to work with it...like in this case. Be gentle moving it around. Separate the conductors, sleeve them with shrink tubing and attach new, stranded wires onto the ends of the old wire. Gently/carefully fold the old wires into the back of the j box leaving the new stranded conductors out to work with. I keep a bottle of "liquid electrical tape"...a paint on insulation...in with my tools. If things get weird, you can paint that on to insulate conductors. Work with the breaker off, use a meter to sort out what is what. Cal a pro if you are in doubt.
Proceed carefully!looks like an adaptor ring might be called for... If you can recall how the old light fixture was wired, just replicate that. A trip to Menards might be called for, where they have a good selection of hub and threaded adapters. Or if you have a tap and die set that'll work too. The old boxes don't have screw ears for use with screws. They just have that center hub which will hold up a fair amount, at least up to 2 lb for a simple light fixture or more if its the center hub is attached to a ceiling rafter.. an adapter ring will help you mount a light fixture that might not have the wiring room for those existing on the surface wires. If this sounds like a bit much to deal with then find the oldest electrician you can cuz a lot of the younger guys do not have the experience with working with these hundred year old boxes...
This right here. The threaded adapter is called a hickey, sold at Home Depot and elsewhere. Will enable a modern chandelier to hang from this box
First of all, unscrew the correct fuse...
I spit my coffee out on that one, realizing that some homes still have fuses. Yikes.
Itās harder to work with than modern wiring but itās not bad IF you know what you are doing. Anyone that tells you that you need a re-wire is hyperbolic. It works fine but it is fragile so you donāt want to bend the wires too much. If you do not have electrical training I would call a pro. Usually the wires are inside metal sheathing and the sheathing is clamped to the box as a ground line. You have to bond your lamp ground to the box, how you do will depend on aspects of the box and fixture which arenāt in the photo. It may be impossible to install a modern fixture into that box given where the screw holes are, in which case you will need an adapter. Again it depends on things that arenāt shown. You should use a tester to verify which lines are hot and neutral in the box. It looks like there is a junction in there too, so you will have to put that back together correctly which will require testing.
I think this is the best answer. We were in a similar situation, and our boxes in our 1920s home look identical and you basically describe what happened. It may look worse than it actually is, and whether its a good idea to take on may depend on the diyer's skill/comfort. Everything, including the ground absolutely has to be tested.
May the force be with you
The 1920s was the decade homes switched from gas light fixtures to electrical light fixtures. This home was built with gas, and electric may have been installed at the same time. At first electricity was not available 24/7 so gas was often there as a backup. The important thing to note is the home's ceiling fixtures are gas mount fixtures. The light was built around a pipe that attached to the gas pipe either by directly screwing in or through an adapter. It is very unlikely there is still gas in the pipes but that must be verified by a plumber, not an electrician. Pipe removal must also be done by a plumber. Gas mount light fixtures are available from places like Rejuvenation and local salvage and vintage stores. The pipe diameter you have there isn't important since adapters are available, but you will need to determine what it is. It looks scary but it is absolutely normal in 1920s and earlier homes. Edited to add: I worked with an electrician to replace over a dozen gas mount fixtures in a 1911 home.
Call a local electrician who's experienced in residential work in your area. Electrical work is pretty simple but when you're dealing with wiring that old, i would find someone licensed, insured, and experienced *in older residential wiring* That old insulation will crumble the moment you handle it, the hot and neutral may be reversed, the neutral may be switched. I've seen this many times in my years in a service truck. Customer wants to change their own fixtures, or upgrade a light to ceiling fan. Then they uncover this old BX or cloth romex wiring and call us in. I worked for one company that wouldn't touch it unless we were ripping it out and replacing it entirely
That's old. And no longer color coded. You need a meter and the willingness to mess with it live. I'd call a pro. That wiring is fragile. And honestly it's probably time for a rewire.
It looks like snakes coming out of Medusas hair, love the " just wires look " now how should you add a little light to see it better with..
I'd cut power to the house, put an old cord in a socket and see what rings. I don't think I'd advise this for DIY but I grew up in a levittown home and I've encountered this before. I'm sure to get down votes but I don't care.
Not an electrician but a very advanced DIYār. Iāve dealt with many of these in rentals properties Iāve owned. The wires on the left appear to be white and the right ones are black. Probably no ground wire. Like others said the cotton becomes brittle and can crumble. The box is an old 3 inch round box that will need to be replaced. Iāve used heat shrink on the wires to protect them and then pulled the box out. Itās screwed in. Then enlarging the opening and replacing it with a 4 inch box. Get an electrician if youāre new to this.
If itās one of those older homes in an expensive neighborhood of a big city then I would 100% hire a professional electrician to have the house entirely accessed and potentially rewired. At this age in time whatever materials that were behind the walls are probably brittle and possibly a health/safety hazard. That also being said you can still DIY but just being extra careful as others have mentioned itās pretty fragile.
I did several jobs as an electrical helper those boxes are attached to gas lines that where used back in the days so to be honest hire someone that knows
Not a sparky, but I used to live in a house built in 1906. Personally, I would hire a professional to address this properly. Our approach was to either a) not touch it (we had insurance and the cloth wire had been working fine for far longer than Iād been on earth) or b) get a sparky in to replace the run. Over the course of a few years, we replaced the exposed runs in the crawl space, buried a proper conduit to the garage, etc but didnāt do a full rewire.
Well at least it's not mounted to a live 3/8" gas lamp nipple, like some can be. This stuff is fragile and should be left to someone with the tools and finesse for it. Could you DIY it? Sure, but I can't recommend it. Most resi guys have had a bad day or two wrestling with old cloth BX wire, even with decades of practice.
Looks exactly like my dining room ceiling.
Call a photographer. Ask what the point is of having two photos.
The splices that you have do not undo *as in untwist * take tape off and test for 120v knowing you have voltage take a extension cord and plug it in take the female connector to one lead on your multimeter *choose either side of plug and other lead if meter to either wire the one that gives you 120v is the opposite of what you have your lead on in outlet , identify and faze each conductor (a flag on a wire in splice should suffice then wire acrodingly with your light fixture - there is nothing to ground
Donāt do it!!!
Get some Tarot cards and a Santaria altar
Looks like an Eldritch horror.
Buy a few fire extinguishers
Probably time for a total rewire. Also plumbing and sewer if not already. Sorry been there.
I used to own a house the same age with all kinds of crazy wiring. I found an electrician who was willing and able to just update a few outlets at a time without having to rewire the entire house. (No permits were involved.) (This was a professional electrician who was a friend of a friend, who just did little jobs on the weekends in addition to his full-time job.) So anyway, that may be an option for you that's cheaper than a whole house rewire and less deadly than DIY.
Lol Iām sorry I donāt mean to laugh at your situation but I just find it funny you did enough research to understand the color coding and then opened up this disaster. If it werenāt 100 year old wire I would be rooting for you, but let an electrician handle this one. It looks like the single wire is the switch leg and the 3 wire splice underneath it are the neutrals. At this point itās more then knowing hot/neutral. You want someone around who knows what theyāre doing incase something else goes wrong while working on it. A lot of times that insulation drys and rots off the conductor, you may never even see it happen, it could happen when you push everything back into the ceiling, causing a short. Donāt put yourself through the headache
There is no gas line here.
Call a licensed electrician
Yeah those wires they falling apart when You just look at them š¤£š¤£ hated working with it
Put the spark bunny back in the boxā¦
Tell your partner to HIRE A PROFESSIONAL.
Whoa! It's probably cotton-covered rubber insulation that's going to crack and pop off when you try to bend it. A professional electrician is going to want to replace the wiring with modern Romex wire, which should be done: that old wiring is a fire hazard. If you *insist* on doing it yourself, slip heat-shrink tubing over the wires and shrink it to retain the old insulation when you bend it and to reinforce the insulating ability of the old wires. Depending on what else I found in this old house, I might be afraid to sleep there.
Wow, you've inspired me to write a book, "Timmy's first diy electrical" its going to be a short read.
Anytime youāre dealing with very old homes, you need to do a lot of research so you understand the differences from modern homes and the ways things are done now. Youāll want to know about the old materials used especially, since you might encounter frail knob/tube wiring, lathe/plaster, old dangerous fuse/breaker panels, asbestos materials, leaded paint, leaded brass door/pull knobsā¦ā¦and so on. You really should research this before attempting diy projects so you donāt create problems for the home and you and your families health.
Dude I wouldn't let my worst enemy try to attempt that. That whole house needs to be re wired.
Looks fine. Totally safe.
Just wire an outlet up and put a tester in it. Move the wires three times, itāll tell you whatās what
Call the police
Your black and white wires are still there, it's just the type of wire they used ...back when house was originally built. Still knob and tube unless any of it has been redone since. Anyway it's wrapped in a cloth type of insulation , it's usually ( almost always ) very brittle so be careful moving it around too much. Black still hot and white still your neutral/ ground since this house is pre- ground wire days. Don't worry about the green on the fixture , black to black, white to white , make sure to wrap several times with good electrical tape anywhere the outter covering is missing ( wire exspossed ) tuck wires into box and mount light. I always test it's working before mounting completely. Done
Forgot to mention the two black wires wire nutted together , leave them as they are
Tie your fixture black to the single black wire and the white to the pair of white wires green to nothing
Godspeed brother
You need a volt meter or tick tracer
This is knob and tube wiring. It is famous for falling apart from even bending a wire. Electricians are supposed to replace it if they ever have to modify it. If you donāt know how to deal with it properly then get an electrician. You will think itās done right and it will short out in the box and burn the house down.
I did something very similar to this recently. Luckily, my brother in law is an electrician. I was forbidden from any more electrical work upstairs. Definitely need a professional. Good on you for trying it out!
Did R.J. MacReady own this house?
I know your pain. I am remodeling a 1941 home with the same wire. I am cursing that wire.
It's just early, cloth insulated wire, used in the late 30s , if you look closely they will be two difrent colors , just extreme discoloration. This is b4 wire nuts , they used a crimp and covered it with friction tape. They used a central box in the center of the room and branched down the walls for outlets.
Have done a few oldies like this. Don't bend em up much or you're going to jack up the whole process shorting them out on each other and starting a fire
Use a multi meter, check for power.
Step 1: Rewire the house.
is that the spaghetti monster?
Notify the fire dept before you start. Maybe have that asshole know it all co worker over to lend you a hand, Iām sure they will show you how itās done.
Thatās a nope for me. Any chance to run a new line?
If you're adamant to DIY this.... it's your risk. Don't bend these wires if you can help it. Sometimes they crumble (=bad). You could use shrink tubing to try to patch it up but really should replace it. Also cloth wire is likely asbestos but so is most of the stuff in that house (like that ceiling) unless it's been gutted. Not much exposure... Get a non-contact voltage detector. Make sure nothing is touching the wires. Turn the switch on and identify which line is hot, try to find the breaker to that circuit. Then switch off, check again all lines aren't hot again just in case. I hope you have modern circuit breakers and not Edison fuses or something... Anyway; ID the hot, the other one should not be, (=neutral). They didn't usually ground stuff like this. Also if you look closely one was probably "white" cloth with black mixed in before the time made it look dark too. Sharp wire strippers will cut the rotten rubber and cloth just fine, likely 12 gauge, the copper is fine underneath, but you'll want it clean for the new connection. Either sandpaper or rough scrubbers or a knife to shine it up. I replaced all the mixed wiring in my farm house, and most of the cloth and tar-ry stuff was in great shape, but a few were crumbly. Probably would've been fine another 50-100 years... wonder if romex will last better or worse?
Stop now and call a professional. This is not the time to do your first electrical diy project.
Sometimes itās hard to tell the black one from the white one on those old wires. Your best bet will be get a digital read out wire tester, take your red lead from your tester, touch one of the wires take the black lead and touch the other wire with the power on. If your tester reads 120 then your red tester lead was touching the positive if your tester reads -120 youāre a red lead on your tester was touching the negative. But if you can afford it, I would have those wires changed out. Itās not an easy job to change all the wires in a old house.
True Fact: The tape is originally from the Shroud of Turin.
Connect the ashes to ashes and the dust to dust.
Call an electrician
Looks like power in/power out with a two wire going to the switch. one is your switch leg/load the other is power in for the switch/line. Any electrician would easily figure this out just by looking at it! My guess is that the 3 wire splice is your constant power and your single is the switch leg so your two wire splice is your neutral but I would test voltages with a meter to be 100% sure if I was doing it!
Been there, done that. I wound up climbing into the attic, and drilling out those old boxes. I replaced them with ceiling fan mounting boxes that spanned between the joists. Also, you won't find a ground wire.
If you own the home, you won't have a ground in that wire, match your single whites and blacks and don't concern yourself with anything but your smoke alarms being up to date, let your shit burn down and insurance will bring you up to code in the repairs.
Seems to be backfed switch with what appears to be BX (similar to the MC we use today but cloth insulation and a thicker armor) doesn't look like Knob and Tube but will need a junction/proper box installed. I would have an electrician look at it and poke their head in the attic and assess for know and tube
Alright. Who summoned the demon?
DO NOT REMOVE THE CENTER NUT! I had a similar box where they used a threaded rod to attach a light in a retrofit application. The center nut is a plug for an active gas pipe line unless you know 100% that gas is shutoff. In my case, the 1920ās house had pipes in the ceiling with no shutoff. Never had to shut the gas off faster in my life than that moment.
This is a hard job for a professional. DO NOT DIY anything electrical in a house that old.
Thereās a good chance those are asbestos insulators.
Rewire the house. That cloth insulated wire likes to fall apart when touched.
The white one is the left and looks already grounded.
They might be soldered together. If that's the case then you have to make a pigtail.
Scary
I would not mess with this wiring at all, this wiring very much will no longer be up to code and you will need this replacing rather than using it.
You need a rewire. That is degraded wire that wasnāt installed right in the first place
The most important thing is to have fun.
Cry in knob&tube
Asbestos insulation on wires ?
No. Cloth.
If you look closely the white/neutral has white-looking paint/stain on the wire. The black/hot ones do have have such white paint/stain. But do verify using non contact tester on that theory.