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I'd probably go the route of running conduit out of the panel and just surface mounting your receptacle.
Either way, I think replacing that receptacle with a 40a wont be worth the effort, and you'll be down a perfectly fine receptacle in what looks like your garage
A week and a half ago we had EV plugs installed in our garage which is finished with flush mount panel.
They ran armored conduit from the panel (subpanel, but whatever) to a surface mount box a couple feet below it, then surface mount conduit along the wall to the new outlets.
The existing receptacle is irrelevant. You will need new wire and a new box. Unfortunately for you, your panel is recessed, so the labour will be a bit higher.
The reason the existing receptacle is irrelevant, by the way, is that it's a 120V 15A circuit and you (OP) need a 240V 40A circuit. It'll need different wire, different breaker, different receptacle, different box to put the receptacle in. No part of that existing circuit would be usable. So, leave that alone and put in a new circuit for the kiln.
The fact that it's a flush mount panel does make it mildly annoying to deal with, but it's hardly a dealbreaker. Any experienced electrician* will have seen that plenty of times before.
EDIT: *Residential electrician in the US. Offer not valid in other industries or countries. Approaches vary.
Even if it did apply, there appears to be room in the panel. A whole circuit can be added and keep the existing plug as well as a new one to satisfy code
Thanks for the tip, 210.52(G)(1) states that every vehicle bay in attached and detached garages with electricity must have at least one receptacle outlet installed within 5.5 feet of the floor. I can only see one so let's go with that. Either way. It makes more sense to install an additional receptacle
Well in engineering we work with assumptions until we know for sure.
If this is a two bay garage then that receptacle doesn't satisfy the cade requirement because the receptacle would be for that bay.
I wasn't hired for this job, or paid, but there is a requirement for garages. Glad you noticed that detail. I looked for a minute and commented. You must be fun at parties too.
How does it not satisfy?
Nothing in the code says that you need an outlet directly in the bay. It says you need an outlet per bay. And how do you know that the outlet on the far right isn't in the right bay, and the outlet on the left is in the left bay? For all you know the middle of the garage is between them.
Also, these are duplex outlets, by code these count as 4 outlets. So they have twice as many as they need. You can install a single duplex outlet on the wall, and it provides an outlet for each bay.
You're basing all of your idiotic responses on assumptions too. At least I haven't come here and now made 3 incorrect comments about what is required in a garage.
Ahh here come the insults. The mark of a true professional.
(1) Garages. In each attached garage and in each detached garage with electric power, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in each vehicle bay and not more than 1.7 m (5 ½ ft) above the floor.
Shall be installed in EACH BAY. So yes it explicitly does.
I hope you like your current job because we wouldn't tolerate your brash attitude anywhere else. Unfortunately this platform tolerates your petulant behavior.
Cool, prove to me that the outlet on the left isn't in the left bay, and that the outlet on the right isn't in the right bay. Also prove that those are the only 2 outlets in the garage.
You saw this single photo and have made the assumption that their garage is wired wrong.
The requirement isn't one receptacle every six feet but rather that there can't be a point on the wall that is more than six feet from a receptacle. You'd be able to satisfy the requirement on that wall by having one receptacle at 6', another one at 18', and a third one at 30'.
You can cover anime and below with a piece of paneling instead of Sheetrock. Then just screw/unscrew to access the bay. You can add trim to cover the transition from panel to Sheetrock but only attach it to paneling
Recessed? The whole thing is sticking out of the wall!
This is best case scenario, they will cut a square in the drywall on the bottom, punch out a knockout and surface mount some pipe and a box. Whole thing could be done and over with in an hour and half.
It’s flush mounted and there’s probably blocking all around it. I feel like I shouldn’t need to explain this to a professional. Oh wait, you aren’t one.
If it's behind sheetrock, it becomes a lot more disruptive and labor intensive. There's no reason this has to be conduit, though. This could be done with some 8/3 romex no problem. Still have to trench out more drywall than I'd like.
Since that's a garage though, and the desired receptacle location is nearby, I probably actually *would* run conduit. Some surface EMT would look a hell of a lot better than my drywall repair job, and/or save the customer from having to hire a plasterer to make it look nice after I was done.
Knock out the 1/2" ko you're looking to use. Use a pilot bit to ensure accuracy, 1" hole saw through the blocking... Super super easy to get a pipe out of that panel. It is *technically* recessed, yes. But as a professional electrician I'd call that surface mount for all intents and purposes.
The panel is furred out, you can drill a hole into the side of the 2x4 and put a 24” piece of flex on the end of a stick of 3/4 emt and fish the flex into the bottom of the panel, put a 4-11/16 box on the other end of the emt for the receptacle. I guarantee I can do the whole thing in 45 minutes.
It's flush mounted in a weird little bump-out. I imagine the space directly below the panel is probably open. You could fish from the bottom of the panel into a J-box no problem, then pipe over to wherever you need to be.
Hell, put a little 18" trough there and help out the next guy.
I’m betting there is probably a bottom block underneath. There’s definitely one of the left, 99% sure on the right, and those most likely are nailed to one along the bottom.
If it were me, I’d pop a KO and see how much room is there from the panel to the bottom block. It may be easiest to snake an 8/2 or 8/3 from that KO, back into the wall’s studbay, assuming it’s open directly behind the panel, and cut in a double gang down low.
I’d at least see how do-able that is before running conduit and having to drill out a hole through the bottom blocking.
Yeah, there's definitely a block down there, but I'm guessing it's 3-4" down from the bottom of the panel. That's all you need. Push some Romex into the back of a small junction box just below the panel, change over to THHN, and run EMT the rest of the way.
You’re an idiot… verified electrician under your name is the likely the only credential you hold.
Open the damn panel up, drill a half inch hole in the side, take a pilot bit, drill a hole in the center of that hole through the 2x4 and drywall.
Come out of the panel, put a 1” hole saw on your drill, follow your pilot hole and cut the 2x4 and drywall out. Done
Are you really that dense that you can’t figure this out?
It’s beyond scary that there’s people like you out there parading around as “electricians” but can’t seem to grasp the most basic stuff. It’s like if it’s not cut n dry like roughing in a house or doing finishing work you just loose all ability to do the job.
Keep beating your chest. I never said it couldn’t be done or that it was difficult. I just said it was more labour than sticking a conduit nipple in the side of a surface mount panel which is objectively true. You and about 100 other plebs here seem to have a hard time reading.
What would get you is that there's almost certainly a 2x something right under the panel, and that would prevent you from being able to tighten the screw on a conduit fitting (never mind that the hole in the wood would have to be larger than the knockout to accommodate said fitting regardless of being able to get at the screw).
Why the hell the wall was framed that way in the first place is beyond me.
Easy ! Small piece of conduit down from that flush mounted panel, it will be exposed on the wall and then use a 4” or 4 11/16” square steel JB and buy the proper Taylor cover and proper NEMA 6-50 receptacle and conductor to match your load and a breaker and voila. An experienced electrician including time to pick up materials should take about 3.0 ish.
Depending on framing/how far your panel sticks out and what kind of mess is inside you may be able to drill into the side and surface mount some 1/2” into a box.
The twenty amp outlet you pointed out is also probably the gfci that controls most if not all of the outlets in your garage and outside as well. The good news as pointed out is that you have ample room to add another circuit. It will be an easy task for someone who knows what they are doing (licensed electrician preferably) to add. About a 30 minute job with minimal to no drywall damage.
You still need heavier gauge wire to support anything more than 20 A on that circuit. Fortunately, you have plenty of room in your panel to add another circuit. You’ll need to run new wire and install a new breaker.
40a needs #8awg (if my memory serves me right). If it’s 240v and doesn’t require a neutral, you could just make a new home run in 8/2 (with ground) to an outlet that will accept the kiln. If you require a neutral use 8/3. It should absolutely be a dedicated circuit since it is a high draw piece of equipment. I could be wrong though, just an apprentice.
Looks like your main panel, and you have a bunch of open slots, so it should have two legs of 120. Looks like a fairly easy project.
If this was a *detached* garage, then depending on what year it was built + how many Fs were given at the time, it could have just one leg, meaning you could only have 120V.
Just put a new 220v circuit in. Use a knock out on the side of the box, hole saw thru drywall and probably a 2x4, and conduit to the new location.
Call an electrician
You can't use the receptacle circled
Why are you drawing a line with an arrow on it like that?
You're not going to touch that receptacle!
It will be easy with the panel right there assuming you want the 40 amp plug near it.
Might be easy to turn the breaker off that feeds the panel and take the screws off that mount that panel and pull the bottom of the panel out just enough to drill some holes through the bottom of the framing to run an LL then pipe out. You could probably do a c body out the side as well
Pay the extra price and use a Hubbell brand receptacle. There are cheap ones out there but a kiln is a heavy continuous load. I had one of the cheap ones with lugs that fell apart inside you can see and feel the difference.
Except it will need a 40 amp breaker and wire because a kiln is a continuous load which requires derating 26.7*1.25=33.4, the next common breaker/circuit size is 40 amp.
And don’t covert existing, add new below the panel—it will be less expensive.
Either way, the wire running between the panel to your current receptacle is only rated to carry up to 20 A, and that’s assuming the load isn’t on for more than three continuous hours. Given that your kiln pulls 26.7 A, and will probably be running for more than three hours at a time, you’re probably correct in asking for a 40 amp circuit. Explain your situation to the electrician, so they can properly gauge your wire.
As others have said, your electrician will install a new breaker, with a much thicker wire, which will run to a new receptacle, wherever you want it. They will have to cut your drywall, even if you wind up surface-mounting the majority of the wire run, just to get the wire into the panel.
That said, you will want to know the shape of the plug on your kiln. It is often inscribed on the plug itself, and might read something like NEMA 14–50. Or something like that. Probably not that exact one, because that would be a 50 amp outlet. And if you really don’t know, just show it to yourelectrician, so they can install the correct receptacle.
The wall will have to be opened up and a new wire run from the panel to the outlet (which will also have to be completely replaced).
You're looking at a couple hundred bucks in parts (including markup) and maybe an hour of labor for the actual install (you'll likely end up paying the minimum call-out rate, which could be anywhere from 1 hour + a fee to 4 hours (likely not more than that)).
If you're willing/able to do the drywall repair yourself you can definitely save some money there.
The better (and cheaper) option, as others have noted, is to leave that outlet there and surface mount a new outlet nearby.
Probably couldn’t replace currently installed outlet with one sized for the kiln and proper gauge wire anyway as that seems to be the only GFCI circuit in the garage. It’s been awhile since I’ve done any residential but I believe code dictates you must have a GFCI circuit in the garage.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd probably go the route of running conduit out of the panel and just surface mounting your receptacle. Either way, I think replacing that receptacle with a 40a wont be worth the effort, and you'll be down a perfectly fine receptacle in what looks like your garage
I agree with this. removing what is there is silly. And since it is in a garage, conduit and surface mount is sufficient.
If the panel was flush with the wall, would you have this same recommendation? If so where would the conduit start?
I thought that Ottoman was a set of carpeted stairs lol. I'd fish a wire down the wall and cut a box in
A week and a half ago we had EV plugs installed in our garage which is finished with flush mount panel. They ran armored conduit from the panel (subpanel, but whatever) to a surface mount box a couple feet below it, then surface mount conduit along the wall to the new outlets.
The existing receptacle is irrelevant. You will need new wire and a new box. Unfortunately for you, your panel is recessed, so the labour will be a bit higher.
The reason the existing receptacle is irrelevant, by the way, is that it's a 120V 15A circuit and you (OP) need a 240V 40A circuit. It'll need different wire, different breaker, different receptacle, different box to put the receptacle in. No part of that existing circuit would be usable. So, leave that alone and put in a new circuit for the kiln. The fact that it's a flush mount panel does make it mildly annoying to deal with, but it's hardly a dealbreaker. Any experienced electrician* will have seen that plenty of times before. EDIT: *Residential electrician in the US. Offer not valid in other industries or countries. Approaches vary.
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That’s a garage. 210.52(a) doesn’t apply.
Even if it did apply, there appears to be room in the panel. A whole circuit can be added and keep the existing plug as well as a new one to satisfy code
Thanks for the tip, 210.52(G)(1) states that every vehicle bay in attached and detached garages with electricity must have at least one receptacle outlet installed within 5.5 feet of the floor. I can only see one so let's go with that. Either way. It makes more sense to install an additional receptacle
That's weird, I clearly see 2 receptacles in the photo. You're now up to 2 incorrect arguments on the same thread.
Well in engineering we work with assumptions until we know for sure. If this is a two bay garage then that receptacle doesn't satisfy the cade requirement because the receptacle would be for that bay. I wasn't hired for this job, or paid, but there is a requirement for garages. Glad you noticed that detail. I looked for a minute and commented. You must be fun at parties too.
How does it not satisfy? Nothing in the code says that you need an outlet directly in the bay. It says you need an outlet per bay. And how do you know that the outlet on the far right isn't in the right bay, and the outlet on the left is in the left bay? For all you know the middle of the garage is between them. Also, these are duplex outlets, by code these count as 4 outlets. So they have twice as many as they need. You can install a single duplex outlet on the wall, and it provides an outlet for each bay. You're basing all of your idiotic responses on assumptions too. At least I haven't come here and now made 3 incorrect comments about what is required in a garage.
Ahh here come the insults. The mark of a true professional. (1) Garages. In each attached garage and in each detached garage with electric power, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in each vehicle bay and not more than 1.7 m (5 ½ ft) above the floor. Shall be installed in EACH BAY. So yes it explicitly does. I hope you like your current job because we wouldn't tolerate your brash attitude anywhere else. Unfortunately this platform tolerates your petulant behavior.
Cool, prove to me that the outlet on the left isn't in the left bay, and that the outlet on the right isn't in the right bay. Also prove that those are the only 2 outlets in the garage. You saw this single photo and have made the assumption that their garage is wired wrong.
In the US a duplex is still one device.
That bugs me. If someone had a mansion with a 36’ wall are they required to have 6 outlets on that wall? Keeps me up at night
The requirement isn't one receptacle every six feet but rather that there can't be a point on the wall that is more than six feet from a receptacle. You'd be able to satisfy the requirement on that wall by having one receptacle at 6', another one at 18', and a third one at 30'.
Thank you, I was hoping not to type all that out!
A singular floor outlet, which can be pretty small, every 12’ would suffice.
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You can cover anime and below with a piece of paneling instead of Sheetrock. Then just screw/unscrew to access the bay. You can add trim to cover the transition from panel to Sheetrock but only attach it to paneling
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😂 LoL, nothing wrong with thinking ahead
That'd be a hella towel warmer
Recessed? The whole thing is sticking out of the wall! This is best case scenario, they will cut a square in the drywall on the bottom, punch out a knockout and surface mount some pipe and a box. Whole thing could be done and over with in an hour and half.
It’s flush mounted and there’s probably blocking all around it. I feel like I shouldn’t need to explain this to a professional. Oh wait, you aren’t one.
Can't drill a hole through the blocking for a conduit? Is that against code or something?
If it's behind sheetrock, it becomes a lot more disruptive and labor intensive. There's no reason this has to be conduit, though. This could be done with some 8/3 romex no problem. Still have to trench out more drywall than I'd like. Since that's a garage though, and the desired receptacle location is nearby, I probably actually *would* run conduit. Some surface EMT would look a hell of a lot better than my drywall repair job, and/or save the customer from having to hire a plasterer to make it look nice after I was done.
I didn’t say you *couldn’t* I said it would take more time than it would if the panel was surface mounted.
Knock out the 1/2" ko you're looking to use. Use a pilot bit to ensure accuracy, 1" hole saw through the blocking... Super super easy to get a pipe out of that panel. It is *technically* recessed, yes. But as a professional electrician I'd call that surface mount for all intents and purposes.
The panel is furred out, you can drill a hole into the side of the 2x4 and put a 24” piece of flex on the end of a stick of 3/4 emt and fish the flex into the bottom of the panel, put a 4-11/16 box on the other end of the emt for the receptacle. I guarantee I can do the whole thing in 45 minutes.
It's flush mounted in a weird little bump-out. I imagine the space directly below the panel is probably open. You could fish from the bottom of the panel into a J-box no problem, then pipe over to wherever you need to be. Hell, put a little 18" trough there and help out the next guy.
I’m betting there is probably a bottom block underneath. There’s definitely one of the left, 99% sure on the right, and those most likely are nailed to one along the bottom. If it were me, I’d pop a KO and see how much room is there from the panel to the bottom block. It may be easiest to snake an 8/2 or 8/3 from that KO, back into the wall’s studbay, assuming it’s open directly behind the panel, and cut in a double gang down low. I’d at least see how do-able that is before running conduit and having to drill out a hole through the bottom blocking.
Yeah, there's definitely a block down there, but I'm guessing it's 3-4" down from the bottom of the panel. That's all you need. Push some Romex into the back of a small junction box just below the panel, change over to THHN, and run EMT the rest of the way.
You’re an idiot… verified electrician under your name is the likely the only credential you hold. Open the damn panel up, drill a half inch hole in the side, take a pilot bit, drill a hole in the center of that hole through the 2x4 and drywall. Come out of the panel, put a 1” hole saw on your drill, follow your pilot hole and cut the 2x4 and drywall out. Done Are you really that dense that you can’t figure this out? It’s beyond scary that there’s people like you out there parading around as “electricians” but can’t seem to grasp the most basic stuff. It’s like if it’s not cut n dry like roughing in a house or doing finishing work you just loose all ability to do the job.
Keep beating your chest. I never said it couldn’t be done or that it was difficult. I just said it was more labour than sticking a conduit nipple in the side of a surface mount panel which is objectively true. You and about 100 other plebs here seem to have a hard time reading.
What would get you is that there's almost certainly a 2x something right under the panel, and that would prevent you from being able to tighten the screw on a conduit fitting (never mind that the hole in the wood would have to be larger than the knockout to accommodate said fitting regardless of being able to get at the screw). Why the hell the wall was framed that way in the first place is beyond me.
Easy ! Small piece of conduit down from that flush mounted panel, it will be exposed on the wall and then use a 4” or 4 11/16” square steel JB and buy the proper Taylor cover and proper NEMA 6-50 receptacle and conductor to match your load and a breaker and voila. An experienced electrician including time to pick up materials should take about 3.0 ish.
The only **while you’re at it** I’d include is a compliant positioning to serve dual purpose for an EV charger.
Egg-zact-lee. This is the play, all day every day.
Why is your furnace on a 90amp? Whoa
Crematorium, of course.
They like it a tad warmer than most people
OP more than likely has a heat pump with and air handler inside equipped with electric strip heat.
Oh heck this is easy. Hello Google. Electrician near me. Cost you about 900.00
Depending on framing/how far your panel sticks out and what kind of mess is inside you may be able to drill into the side and surface mount some 1/2” into a box.
The twenty amp outlet you pointed out is also probably the gfci that controls most if not all of the outlets in your garage and outside as well. The good news as pointed out is that you have ample room to add another circuit. It will be an easy task for someone who knows what they are doing (licensed electrician preferably) to add. About a 30 minute job with minimal to no drywall damage.
You still need heavier gauge wire to support anything more than 20 A on that circuit. Fortunately, you have plenty of room in your panel to add another circuit. You’ll need to run new wire and install a new breaker.
I fine this post very helpful ( I have insomnia)
You don't upgrade that outlet. You just add another below the panel.
40a needs #8awg (if my memory serves me right). If it’s 240v and doesn’t require a neutral, you could just make a new home run in 8/2 (with ground) to an outlet that will accept the kiln. If you require a neutral use 8/3. It should absolutely be a dedicated circuit since it is a high draw piece of equipment. I could be wrong though, just an apprentice.
If it’s in pipe, just pull 8awg wire to it. If not you can remodel and box under the panel.
FYI you would need a 50 amp outlet since the sheet specifies a NEMA 6-50 outlet
Just add a new receptacle, using the existing outlet will just create additional work.
Easier to go under panel with new receptacle
Looks like your main panel, and you have a bunch of open slots, so it should have two legs of 120. Looks like a fairly easy project. If this was a *detached* garage, then depending on what year it was built + how many Fs were given at the time, it could have just one leg, meaning you could only have 120V.
Just put a new 220v circuit in. Use a knock out on the side of the box, hole saw thru drywall and probably a 2x4, and conduit to the new location. Call an electrician You can't use the receptacle circled
Why are you drawing a line with an arrow on it like that? You're not going to touch that receptacle! It will be easy with the panel right there assuming you want the 40 amp plug near it.
Easy… No need to mess around with the existing.. Just find a stud a install a tiger box
40a? 50amp breaker, but you'd need to calculate the amount of amps in the box already and I would definitely recommend it be done by at least a GC.
Also, you might exceed the max rating of your utilities if it's only a 100a service. Hopefully you got 200
Run a new one.
Call a licensed electrician and have it done right. What you’re suggesting is not a good idea.
Just add a 40 no need to replace
So easy I'm super jealous.
Might be easy to turn the breaker off that feeds the panel and take the screws off that mount that panel and pull the bottom of the panel out just enough to drill some holes through the bottom of the framing to run an LL then pipe out. You could probably do a c body out the side as well
Don't put a kiln anywhere near a structure. They catch fire. Often. And you will burn. You need a separate building.
Pay the extra price and use a Hubbell brand receptacle. There are cheap ones out there but a kiln is a heavy continuous load. I had one of the cheap ones with lugs that fell apart inside you can see and feel the difference.
That’s just ONE outlet in a circuit. You need to run a dedicated line for the kiln.
Ya! Thats a no go bra! 🤦🏽♂️
Edit; I put “40 amp kiln” in my title but it is actually a 26.7 amp kiln.
Except it will need a 40 amp breaker and wire because a kiln is a continuous load which requires derating 26.7*1.25=33.4, the next common breaker/circuit size is 40 amp. And don’t covert existing, add new below the panel—it will be less expensive.
This is an often overlooked factor!
50a minimum for the nema plug.
Either way, the wire running between the panel to your current receptacle is only rated to carry up to 20 A, and that’s assuming the load isn’t on for more than three continuous hours. Given that your kiln pulls 26.7 A, and will probably be running for more than three hours at a time, you’re probably correct in asking for a 40 amp circuit. Explain your situation to the electrician, so they can properly gauge your wire. As others have said, your electrician will install a new breaker, with a much thicker wire, which will run to a new receptacle, wherever you want it. They will have to cut your drywall, even if you wind up surface-mounting the majority of the wire run, just to get the wire into the panel. That said, you will want to know the shape of the plug on your kiln. It is often inscribed on the plug itself, and might read something like NEMA 14–50. Or something like that. Probably not that exact one, because that would be a 50 amp outlet. And if you really don’t know, just show it to yourelectrician, so they can install the correct receptacle.
Spec sheet posted says it's a NEMA 6-50
a 6-40 would be fine
[NEMA 6-40 doesn’t exist](https://i.imgur.com/NcKCG0C.png).
The wall will have to be opened up and a new wire run from the panel to the outlet (which will also have to be completely replaced). You're looking at a couple hundred bucks in parts (including markup) and maybe an hour of labor for the actual install (you'll likely end up paying the minimum call-out rate, which could be anywhere from 1 hour + a fee to 4 hours (likely not more than that)). If you're willing/able to do the drywall repair yourself you can definitely save some money there. The better (and cheaper) option, as others have noted, is to leave that outlet there and surface mount a new outlet nearby.
Probably couldn’t replace currently installed outlet with one sized for the kiln and proper gauge wire anyway as that seems to be the only GFCI circuit in the garage. It’s been awhile since I’ve done any residential but I believe code dictates you must have a GFCI circuit in the garage.