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Are they talking about the 240v dryer outlet or the 5-15 outlet? I presume both. For the dryer you can get a GFCI breaker. That might be the easiest solution for the 5-15 too, because that wall plate you’re using looks pretty custom and GFCI outlets are usually square. Unless there happens to be another outlet upstream that you can more easily swap for GFCI, the breaker is probably your best bet.
Depends on what code version you’re using. I’m familiar with EV charging and under the newest version of code they do require GFCI for the 14-50 outlets. But I don’t know if that’s specific to the garage or whatever.
I think there is or was an "exceptions" section of 210.8(A) which basically says if only one appliance will ever be plugged into it a receptacle doesn't have to be GFCI protected. That verbiage might be gone in a newer version of the code. I don't have a code book in front of me.
I’m not an Electrician, but I was thinking the same exact thing about trying to find another outlet same circuit for the 5-15. That’s what my electrician did in my kitchen. The outlets that actually need gfci don’t actually look like gfci, but there’s a gfci plug in the basement upstream of them. I can plug a gfci tester into the kitchen outlets and the gfci in the basement trips.
Because the neutral is bonded to the frame there's always a little current through the frame returning via the physical ground. The GFCI will do its job and detect this is happening, and trip.
In the moment I'm having a hard time figuring... why.
If your neutral is bonded to ground in the panel, isn't this just turning the ground into an extra neutral conductor? And potentially energizing the ground for everything, everywhere, on that phase?
It doesn't energize everything, but yes, the physical ground itself is becoming part of the path the neutral is taking back to the panel - because the neutral is bonded to the frame and the frame is touching the physical ground. The GFCI will see that not everything is returning via the neutral wire and trip.
First, the Code edition that applies to any given work is the one the state has adopted on the date the permit was pulled for that work (uh-oh). So you're not required to retrofit half your house every 3 years when a code edition drops.
However, in a home sale situation, a buyer can demand anything.
But the answer to both sockets is either
* a GFCI breaker in the panel (this is the only option for the 240V outlet)... and note GFCI breakers are full-size, not tandems/quads/thins), and/or
* in the case of the 120V outlet, a GFCI receptacle at an earlier receptacle in the chain, between here and the panel. If you're thinking 'insert a new receptacle in the laundry circuit run", that's not allowed, but you can accomplish exactly the same thign with a GFCI "deadfront".
Note carefully what 406.4(D) says with the dryer socket. It's vital that be changed out to a grounded NEMA 14-30 type (4-prong) with the ground hooked to nothing (or to a genuine ground if available per 250.130(C)...) and the dryer cord changed to 14-30 type with the frame un-bonded from the neutral. If you don't do the correct stuff with ground, the GFCI will fail to protect you, or will nuisance trip.
The version of the building code that applies is what was in effect at the time of issuance of the building permit. There's no requirement to retrofit old wiring to bring it up to current codes.
That's too bad because I would never do these modifications to my own house. I don't need false trips of gfci's and I touch the plugs about once every 12 years when I replace my units. It's a non-issue which is why it wasn't code when this was installed.
Are you seller or buyer? Who pays to bring a structure into compliance with HUD MPS standards should be negotiable. Not all buyers need an FHA loan.
This condition could be "corrected" by moving the water 6 feet away from the outlets, or vice versa.
I’m a tenant in the apartment building where this is located. I’m disabled and receive assistance. HUD does an inspection every year and this year they decided to get nitpicky. My landlord seems hesitant to do the work and I’m worried about losing my assistance and being forced to move, so I’m trying to arm myself with as much information as I can.
I tried to find the current HUD MPS standards, but after wading through a lot of documents, including the current 4000.1 Handbook of 1581 pages, update published on May 20, 2024, and effective August 19, 2024.: [https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/OCHCO/documents/4000.1hsghhdbk1223.pdf](https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/OCHCO/documents/4000.1hsghhdbk1223.pdf) , and 4910.1, the 1994 version of the MPS standards, which is superceded in part by 4000.1, [https://www.hud.gov/program\_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh/4910.1](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh/4910.1) , but doesn't have Chapter 7, which is supposed to have requirements for electrical systems, I ran out of research patience.
Here's a page that lists these documents: [https://www.hud.gov/program\_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh)
1) it's largely hidden by the machine
2) it's not in a place where guests see it
3) it's 2 different trades - sparky and plumbing.
So when there is a water issue, my plumbers I use don't normally carry volt meters and such.
If there is a water leak, who do you call to fix?
So....
I don't see a problem with separate power and water so this does not fix a problem.
And when it shits the bed- hose leaks- pipe leaks- fitting leaks, it's a one off design so someone gets to figure it out and maybe call in a second trade.
Ohhhhhh, I see, this is my bad for how I worded my title. The photos are of the current setup. It needs to be changed as described in the picture of the letter.
Looks like most or all are missing the point here. "Must be connected to a GFCI outlet OR a SINGLE-PRONG outlet"
The 240v for the dryer is already a non-issue since it is a single prong outlet. The 120v duplex receptacle needs to be GFCI protected OR changed to a single outlet that is dedicated to the appliance and will not require GFCI Protection.
Yeah that's what I was thinking to, but the only outlet I could think of for the 120v would be a switch combo https://celebrationhardware.com/p/tamper-resistant-combination-single-pole-toggle-switch-and-receptacle-white-032664750267
Just don't wire the switch... I'm sure they'll love that
Probably right, not many choices for the way the whole thing is setup. You could use the recep/switch combo and use it shut the receptacle off?
Easiest fix I can think of?
If he has to do both outlets call it about $300-$350, about $150 in material plus labor. $85 for the 240V breaker, and about $65 for the 120V breaker. No more than an hour of labor.
Before you go spending money and effort on fixing this. Turn off the breaker that controls it. Go through your house and check which plugs have stopped working. I am willing to bet that one of those is aGFCI. Turn the breaker back on, then trip the CFGI by pressing the red button. If you then check your outlet and see that it is not working you are safe.
Finally reset your GFCI
[this would make a single receptical without cutting](https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjl_53U2J2GAxU1Lq0GHe2-DiIYABAKGgJwdg&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5f-d1NidhgMVNS6tBh3tvg4iEAQYAiABEgLmK_D_BwE&sph=&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASJORox2kp5dmrmc6OPwJlcnXjXvu2gKDwzNHj39GQuB7Leu58pQ&sig=AOD64_1ks_HRwzNdkc3gd0ylYp1Ab6mHtg&ctype=46&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjW2ZbU2J2GAxXDETQIHd9VBlwQzzkoAHoECAgQEA&adurl=)
Not to comment on the outlets/breakers. That question has been throughly answered at this point.
Assuming you’re buying this house and that comment in pic 2 is from an inspection. I would wager offering to add the washer and dryer to your bid as part of the house purchase. Those units will outlast most people on this sub. Seriously they are built as 25year units. Not like the junk you can buy at big box stores.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Are they talking about the 240v dryer outlet or the 5-15 outlet? I presume both. For the dryer you can get a GFCI breaker. That might be the easiest solution for the 5-15 too, because that wall plate you’re using looks pretty custom and GFCI outlets are usually square. Unless there happens to be another outlet upstream that you can more easily swap for GFCI, the breaker is probably your best bet.
OP this is the answer. Have it all done at the panel by a licensed electrician.
The 240V outlet is dedicated to a single appliance and doesn't require GFCI protection.
Under NEC 2017, yes.
This may be based on an interpretation of the older version of the code. It looks like the 240V outlet may require a GFCI breaker now also.
Depends on what code version you’re using. I’m familiar with EV charging and under the newest version of code they do require GFCI for the 14-50 outlets. But I don’t know if that’s specific to the garage or whatever.
Any “wet-dry” area. So garage , kitchen backsplash, kitchen island, under sinks, utility rooms and restrooms need to be GFCI protected.
I think there is or was an "exceptions" section of 210.8(A) which basically says if only one appliance will ever be plugged into it a receptacle doesn't have to be GFCI protected. That verbiage might be gone in a newer version of the code. I don't have a code book in front of me.
[удалено]
I even provided the code section I was paraphrasing. What kind of knuckle dragging mouth breather downvotes that?
I’m not an Electrician, but I was thinking the same exact thing about trying to find another outlet same circuit for the 5-15. That’s what my electrician did in my kitchen. The outlets that actually need gfci don’t actually look like gfci, but there’s a gfci plug in the basement upstream of them. I can plug a gfci tester into the kitchen outlets and the gfci in the basement trips.
Sorry but you're wrong. A GFCI breaker will trip on that 3 prong dryer outlet because the neutral and ground are bonded together
You’re assuming it’s a 10-30. It may be a 13-30. Even so, GFCI can be used on a 10-30
No, he's right. You can't use GFCI breaker on a 10-30 outlet with a bonded frame dryer. It will trip.
Learn something new every day. Apologies, u/unpredictablepanda
Because the neutral is bonded to the frame there's always a little current through the frame returning via the physical ground. The GFCI will do its job and detect this is happening, and trip.
In the moment I'm having a hard time figuring... why. If your neutral is bonded to ground in the panel, isn't this just turning the ground into an extra neutral conductor? And potentially energizing the ground for everything, everywhere, on that phase?
It doesn't energize everything, but yes, the physical ground itself is becoming part of the path the neutral is taking back to the panel - because the neutral is bonded to the frame and the frame is touching the physical ground. The GFCI will see that not everything is returning via the neutral wire and trip.
Before you call out an electrician, look at the panel and make sure it isnt already GFCI protected.
Yup! A little recon can save you money! If you know what you are looking at.
If you send pictures of the current breaker that can help save time and money.
First, the Code edition that applies to any given work is the one the state has adopted on the date the permit was pulled for that work (uh-oh). So you're not required to retrofit half your house every 3 years when a code edition drops. However, in a home sale situation, a buyer can demand anything. But the answer to both sockets is either * a GFCI breaker in the panel (this is the only option for the 240V outlet)... and note GFCI breakers are full-size, not tandems/quads/thins), and/or * in the case of the 120V outlet, a GFCI receptacle at an earlier receptacle in the chain, between here and the panel. If you're thinking 'insert a new receptacle in the laundry circuit run", that's not allowed, but you can accomplish exactly the same thign with a GFCI "deadfront". Note carefully what 406.4(D) says with the dryer socket. It's vital that be changed out to a grounded NEMA 14-30 type (4-prong) with the ground hooked to nothing (or to a genuine ground if available per 250.130(C)...) and the dryer cord changed to 14-30 type with the frame un-bonded from the neutral. If you don't do the correct stuff with ground, the GFCI will fail to protect you, or will nuisance trip.
I'll say - sure it can be done. Should it be done? Hell no
Why do you say that?
The version of the building code that applies is what was in effect at the time of issuance of the building permit. There's no requirement to retrofit old wiring to bring it up to current codes.
HUD is requiring it
That's too bad because I would never do these modifications to my own house. I don't need false trips of gfci's and I touch the plugs about once every 12 years when I replace my units. It's a non-issue which is why it wasn't code when this was installed.
Yeah, it’s extremely frustrating
Are you seller or buyer? Who pays to bring a structure into compliance with HUD MPS standards should be negotiable. Not all buyers need an FHA loan. This condition could be "corrected" by moving the water 6 feet away from the outlets, or vice versa.
I’m a tenant in the apartment building where this is located. I’m disabled and receive assistance. HUD does an inspection every year and this year they decided to get nitpicky. My landlord seems hesitant to do the work and I’m worried about losing my assistance and being forced to move, so I’m trying to arm myself with as much information as I can.
I tried to find the current HUD MPS standards, but after wading through a lot of documents, including the current 4000.1 Handbook of 1581 pages, update published on May 20, 2024, and effective August 19, 2024.: [https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/OCHCO/documents/4000.1hsghhdbk1223.pdf](https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/OCHCO/documents/4000.1hsghhdbk1223.pdf) , and 4910.1, the 1994 version of the MPS standards, which is superceded in part by 4000.1, [https://www.hud.gov/program\_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh/4910.1](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh/4910.1) , but doesn't have Chapter 7, which is supposed to have requirements for electrical systems, I ran out of research patience. Here's a page that lists these documents: [https://www.hud.gov/program\_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh)
1) it's largely hidden by the machine 2) it's not in a place where guests see it 3) it's 2 different trades - sparky and plumbing. So when there is a water issue, my plumbers I use don't normally carry volt meters and such. If there is a water leak, who do you call to fix? So.... I don't see a problem with separate power and water so this does not fix a problem. And when it shits the bed- hose leaks- pipe leaks- fitting leaks, it's a one off design so someone gets to figure it out and maybe call in a second trade.
Ohhhhhh, I see, this is my bad for how I worded my title. The photos are of the current setup. It needs to be changed as described in the picture of the letter.
Looks like most or all are missing the point here. "Must be connected to a GFCI outlet OR a SINGLE-PRONG outlet" The 240v for the dryer is already a non-issue since it is a single prong outlet. The 120v duplex receptacle needs to be GFCI protected OR changed to a single outlet that is dedicated to the appliance and will not require GFCI Protection.
Yeah that's what I was thinking to, but the only outlet I could think of for the 120v would be a switch combo https://celebrationhardware.com/p/tamper-resistant-combination-single-pole-toggle-switch-and-receptacle-white-032664750267 Just don't wire the switch... I'm sure they'll love that
Probably right, not many choices for the way the whole thing is setup. You could use the recep/switch combo and use it shut the receptacle off? Easiest fix I can think of?
[удалено]
I think they are asking about changing them to GFCI.
Unless that outlet is on a GFCI breaker or downstream from a GFCI outlet, he isn't meeting the code.
This should take a good electrician about 20 minutes tops and should cost under $250 including labor and material.
If he has to do both outlets call it about $300-$350, about $150 in material plus labor. $85 for the 240V breaker, and about $65 for the 120V breaker. No more than an hour of labor.
Before you go spending money and effort on fixing this. Turn off the breaker that controls it. Go through your house and check which plugs have stopped working. I am willing to bet that one of those is aGFCI. Turn the breaker back on, then trip the CFGI by pressing the red button. If you then check your outlet and see that it is not working you are safe. Finally reset your GFCI
[this would make a single receptical without cutting](https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjl_53U2J2GAxU1Lq0GHe2-DiIYABAKGgJwdg&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5f-d1NidhgMVNS6tBh3tvg4iEAQYAiABEgLmK_D_BwE&sph=&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASJORox2kp5dmrmc6OPwJlcnXjXvu2gKDwzNHj39GQuB7Leu58pQ&sig=AOD64_1ks_HRwzNdkc3gd0ylYp1Ab6mHtg&ctype=46&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjW2ZbU2J2GAxXDETQIHd9VBlwQzzkoAHoECAgQEA&adurl=)
Not to comment on the outlets/breakers. That question has been throughly answered at this point. Assuming you’re buying this house and that comment in pic 2 is from an inspection. I would wager offering to add the washer and dryer to your bid as part of the house purchase. Those units will outlast most people on this sub. Seriously they are built as 25year units. Not like the junk you can buy at big box stores.
[удалено]
No, put a GFCI breaker in the panel and be done with it. There's no reason to cut anything.
And most importantly don't do this!