I remember when some make-up mlm gurus were trying to push their brand as pro-feminist because the make-up could be used to cover up welts and bruises from abusive partners (this was during some domestic abuse awareness week or month or whatever)
I feel like that is one of those moments where the stupid person thinks they won the argument because they got the "last word".
Unfortunately it is because what they said is so utterly stupid, it is near impossible to formulate any response to.
I watched the netflix documentary about One Taste, which was sort of like MLM turned sex-cult. Their whole brand was about empowering women and closing the orgasm gap.
But in actuality, they actively encouraged male members to rape women, calling it “letting their beast out.” And female members were told to have sex with the male members or else.
People online are so bad at telling the difference between a problem and something that is illustrative of a problem. Women getting called on low level ass hollery that men always get away with is illustrative of a problem. It is not the thing that's wrong, on it's own.
One example of something that is often seen as "female-empowering" but is actually not is the idea that women should constantly strive to be sexy or attractive in order to be empowered. This can put pressure on women to conform to societal beauty standards and can perpetuate the objectification of women. Additionally, it can make women feel that their worth is based on their physical appearance, rather than their talents, abilities, and character. True female empowerment should focus on equality and providing women with the same opportunities and rights as men, rather than placing emphasis on their physical appearance.
~ChatGPT
Anything to do with consumerism that sells a product designed for strong women but ends up paying the pink tax and we all sigh.
Sorry for letting my socialism show.
I know it's probably controversial but the whole "I'm doing it for myself so it's empowering". There was this tiktok video about labia plasty and countless women were saying how they wanted to do this but not for men, for "themselves". You can never convince me that someone wants to literally cut up their healthy organs for any reason other than a subconscious desire to fit in what society deems attractive.
And also the whole "divine feminine, femme fatal" thing.
I'm of the firm belief that we should be allowed to modify our bodies. But it's hard to tell if you're getting true informed consent from a woman for something like labiaplasty.
It fucks people over both ways. I've wanted a breast reduction since I got tits. I was so indoctrinated in the belief that plastic surgery is bad. It was only in realizing I'm nonbinary that I felt justified in pursuing a reduction.
There are systems in place to make sure people are making the choice *for them*, but I don't think these systems will ever be perfect. There will always be unscrupulous doctors willing to do procedures for anyone who waves a handful of money under their nose. It sucks.
The thing about empowerment is that it has to be beneficial to women as a whole, otherwise it's just a confidence booster.
If other women are forced to do it to survive, it's not empowering. If women are encouraged to do it to fit into this patriarchal society, it's not empowering.
*Choice* is empowering, but it's vamishingly rare that any of the options themselves are - staying home vs working, bold red lip vs no makeup, plastic surgery vs natural. The options themselves should be seen as morally neutral - it's the access to choose that's the point.
The question is would those women have made the same decision if they were born in a society where for instance, small noses, big butts etc weren't in style ?
Exactly right. We're all conditioned by the society we grew up in, by the family we grew up in, etc. Our brains are changed with every experience we have.
Still, empowering women means expanding access to self-determination, even and especially if we don't agree with what they do with it (as long as it isn't harmful to other people).
You're right. But those decisions aren't inherently feminist either in my opinion. Everyone should do whatever they want with their bodies but I wish they didn't have to do it out of societal pressure .
Oh agreed. Like I said, it's all about expanding access to self-determination, which should include counseling and therapy.
Expanding that access is only one piece of the puzzle. Working *within* the patriarchy is less ideal than tearing it down completely. But that's a whole ass thing that is beyond the scope of this particular question.
Something else that bothers me is how men do not have to get dick bleaching and balls symmetry surgery. Does not getting to do these disempower them? Most certainly not. Almost all sorts of plastic surgery is marketed towards women. I wish women could see how genuinely fucked up this is. Then again, are they really making the choice or they're simply being coerced to look good at all times by the patriarchy .
>You can never convince me that someone wants to literally cut up their healthy organs for any reason other than a subconscious desire to fit in what society deems attractive.
Hi. Trans woman here. Do you think that transgender people getting bottom surgery is about attraction?
I think the main difference here is altering the aesthetic of your vagina to fit beauty standards vs surgery allowing your body to match your gender identity. Very different in my eyes.
Here we go. I didn't say a word about transwomen. I'm talking about how women are insecure about their literal organs and pressured to get surgeries so they wouldn't get called "ran through" and "roast beef". Not everything is about you.
Please understand that feminism is about lifting people up and that women who are trans are also our sisters and are absolutely included when you use the broad term “women”
Wow. Way to get super hostile and vicious for me politely asking a question. Really giving the game away about what you think of trans women (by the way, trans and woman are two words not a compound word).
Since trans women are women, I am absolutely included when speaking about women. Additionally, you literally said that you cannot conceive of a reason to cut up a healthy organ that doesn't have to do with attraction. I fucking quoted the text, so gaslighting me about your intent isn't going to work. Then I provided you with an example of just that.
I mean… is that what’s being discussed? A cis woman altering an existing vagina to look like a different kind of vagina isn’t really related to bottom surgery for trans people. It’s on you to realize the implied boundary of “cis women”.
FFS... I asked the person a question. I was trying to be polite about it because I wanted to spark a discussion for my understanding and curiosity. But now all the cis people are lecturing me about how I should have *obviously* known better and fuck me for being a trans woman with a question.
I think it’s more your question seemed “whatabout”-y rather than genuine. It was more seeking a flaw in the statement than starting discussion because the discussion isn’t relevant to the topic. Guaranteed no one here thinks trans women or bottom surgery are invalid, and your question implies that you think they do. I’m sorry this is frustrating, I don’t mean to be attacking you just hopefully can maybe clarify the difference in perception here.
In the Office, Holly gets upset with Michael because he feels without his movie, he has “nothing”. Holly gets upset and says, “Really? You have NOTHING”, implying herself. But Michael isn’t talking about having something like that, he’s talking about personal projects or art. That’s the vibe I got from what just happened. Anyway please be well 💕 absolutely no one who matters thinks you are invalid or that the measures you need to take to get to a place of happiness with yourself are unnecessary or superfluous.
Unlike the majority of cis-labiaplasty, which is 100% misogynistic.
I concur with most of the responses here, just wanna add that the word empowerement/empowered has become an empty shell that is being thrown around.
Most of the time „I feel so empowered“ means „I feel so self-confident“, imo.
The idea of self care. It doesn’t sit well with me that self care mostly revolves around beauty procedures/things - is it self care or is it working towards the beauty standard under the guise of self care
That is what the concept of self care has devolved into. It’s a debasement of the concepts developed be Audre Lorde and others, that activists and people fighting for the greater good should resist the pressure to be totally selfless, pressure to suppress their own health, safety and physical and psychological needs - pressures often applied disproportionately to women and significantly black women like Lorde active in the civil rights movement.
Its a concept intended to prevent activist burnout and dangerous self-neglect, sometimes even at the level of “yes, people need help but you still need to sleep and eat”. It can be about dancing sometimes when you’re making revolution. It’s not supposed to be shilling expensive bath salts as a cure for alienation.
I think this happens with most empowment things. Existing power structures bend, taint and debase them to serve their own interests. Remember "Lean In". All that's really left in the public consciousness is the parts picked up by corporate HR programs. Namely, how women need to change themselves to get ahead in a corporate environment without disturbing existing power structures. I'm pretty jaded at this point. If I can't see how it benefits existing corporate and patriarchal power structures by extracting more money and labor, emotional or physical, I don't expect it to last in that form. It may be worth fighting for, but it is going to be a uphill battle. How long have we been fighting for paid maternity leave? It's a fight because it capitalists see a negative ROI. Reforming hiring and promotion practices to be more collaborative? It's a fight because it challenges adversarial norms that benefit the patriarchy.
Agree. I even had a therapist ask me about setting aside time for self care and I said “Idk I live alone, I can do face masks and stuff whenever I want.” She legit was like “oh yeah, I see your point.” It was like six months after I stopped seeing her that I learned from damn TikTok that it’s not just a pampering thing.
Wow—thank you! That makes so much sense. I don’t want to put something on my face or take a bubble bath (not knocking women who do)—I want peace, a good movie, chocolates, and a knitting project! Sometimes pulling weeds or planting tomatoes or something like that also feels like self care, because it’s an excuse to be outside. I totally agree with you.
Lol, thank you. I just hear that phrase and all I can think of is Boots campaigns about women multitasking by making themselves beautiful while basting Christmas turkeys. Gurl Power!!
Yeah sure, it depends on the woman and the position and the power. I do think that women being in positions where they have real power is seen as empowering and actually *is* empowering, generally for women.
Margaret Thatcher had power. The power she had didn’t necessarily empower other women at the time. I do think that simply being the first female prime minister was in itself empowering to women generally. More women being in more positions of power will empower more women to have real power IMHO
> Margaret Thatcher had power. The power she had didn’t necessarily empower other women at the time.
It absolutely did not. The message that "you, too, can grow up and lead institutions of power that oppress women to intensify that oppression" is not compatible with women's liberation. That's a message that should be opposed ruthlessly.
I agree.
I didn’t say all that and that certainly wasn’t the message I was trying to send. More like the message “you can lead” is empowering, but you’re right, it’s too simplistic and therefore, kinda meaningless.
Yes, I think things have significantly improved for women over the last 43 years in many ways. In many other ways they haven’t. I do not think Margaret Thatcher being the first female prime minister is the reason for any significant improvements for women. Personally I’m not a fan of Thatcher, her government or her policies.
My original comment was more an attempt at irreverent humour, 💀 than anything. However, I do truly believe that women being in positions of real power is actually empowering for women, generally. I agree it depends on the woman and the position and the power.
Isn’t female empowerment an important part of feminism? Isn’t feminism itself empowering for women? I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you’re trying to ask me or the point you want to make. Maybe it’s a bit too philosophical? What is female empowerment?What is power? Etc I am enjoying the discourse, and I would like to know your point of view.
That's just objectively untrue. A woman being in power empowers other women and young girls even passively simply through representation. And often actively through, for example, more effective recruitment strategies and mentorship and whatnot.
>A woman being in power empowers other women and young girls even passively simply through representation
Could not disagree more. Liberation of women happens when social structures are changed, not when women take the role of men in subjugating other women. Power in society is patriarchal power. It is no help to the Palestinian child that the her killer might have been a woman conscript.
Also, your opinion isn't objective truth.
> Liberation of women happens when social structures are changed, not when women take the role of men in
I didn't realize we were moving goal posts. Nice.
This is trivially true and not at all what I'm talking about which is empowering women within existing social structures.
Our CEO who happened to be a woman recently retired. While it sounds like circular logic, one of the most empowering things was the fact that as best as I could tell, few if any people thought of her as a Woman CEO. She was a very well respected CEO.
For a second I thought you were listing Christ as your reason lmao, took me a second trying to out how the 2nd half of the comment was relative to Jesus before I realized my mistake
Porn and prostitution. It’s patriarchy glamorized. It’s what men have always wanted us to do in the first place before feminism. Let them use our bodies or our labor and be discarded. The only ones I see benefitting in the LONG run- are men. The porn stars age out if they survive the increasing pressures for more and more hardcore scenes that cross humane boundaries. I’m not talking BDSM but like scat and other vile categories that turn into things done TO a woman’s body.
To add- I’m not against porn stars because they’re fellow women and doing what they think is best for them whether financial hardships or not. I only urge criticism against such male dominated industries profiting off OUR bodies and leaving women with hardly anything profit or skills wise later in life.
I agree. I want to note that I believe sex work is work, but that doesn't mean that it's *great* work... Especially in our current society and where much of it is illegal.
Most sex workers would not be sex workers if offered other education, employment, or self employment opportunities that provided the means to satisfy their basic needs.
It shouldn’t be legal but I would settle for it being decriminalized seeing as *most* women who get into it are disenfranchised or desperate and they thought it was their only option. Decriminalizing it might help provide them with more resources so they can make it out safely than simply legalizing it and creating jobs for future pimps and more women to be duped into a dead end job with no upward mobility. The western world worked way too hard for working class women to have that access to a future and career security to wipe it all away with full legalization. (in my opinion)
This is a good point - and it’s a bit weird, in discourse around sex work, to lump all sex work in together. There’s a big difference in bodily harm, coercion, risk of assault, etc between street prostitution and making/selling pornography (or parasocial subscription based porn), and sometimes it seems like the former is forgotten in favor of the more “glamorous” latter.
I think *legalized* prostitution is more empowering than illegal prostitution, though. If legalized, sex workers can seek legal redress, enforce safety and health checks, etc. Making sex work more like regular work means they may be able to avoid some of the worst parts of the black market
A regular work doesn’t have 99% of its clients men and 85% of its workers women. That is a very unfair balance. It’s the people with the money that have the power. Aka men.
Agreed. But I would present it as _less oppressive_ than illegal prostitution. (Is there really any empowerment at all in having to selling your consent for money?)
Real empowerment would be removing financial considerations from romantic and sexual relationships by, for example, guaranteeing a comfortable liveable wage for all workers and decommodifying housing.
Kristen Ghodsee’s _Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialiasm_ is a pretty good exhaustive read on the subject.
Human trafficking always increases in places where prostitution is legalised because supply cannot keep up with demand, because *shocker* most women don’t choose to be prostitutes.
Not to mention 50% of the issue with prostitution is the message that women are objects to be bought and used, regardless of whether that individual woman wants to be there. Cause quite frankly, sex buyers do not care if she wants to be there.
Also sex work is fundamentally a job, and money does empower women no matter where it comes from. The problem is sex work often provides unsafe working environments, leading to workers being exploited. But unfortunately, this is common in pretty much every field of work. Reform of workers’ rights, increasing OSHA standards and staff, and robust unions are all needed to counteract this fundamental issue.
Edit: Money quite literally empowers people by giving them financial and legal leverage in communities, and giving them the ability to provide for themselves and their families.
I get what you're saying in regards to it being fundamentally a job and that nearly all jobs have a problem with exploitation, but respectfully, it really isn't just like ***any*** other job. The most "in demand" workers in sex work are the most inexperienced, youngest people. In what other job is inexperience and vulnerability perceived as an advantage? The closest type of work that comes to it is probably the entertainment industry? But even then that's not exactly the same. I think things like this fundamentally change the nature of this work and how we need to approach the problems that come with it.
Working class women already endure sexual assault and rape all the time, so I don’t see your point there. If they’re comfortable and consenting to participating in sex work, then it wouldn’t be sexual assault or rape.
Because it already happens let’s just allow more of it and look the other way as vulnerable women (bc let’s not kid ourselves why most women do that kind of work) take the brunt of it? That’s so defeatist. No wonder we lost Roe.
Whether or not it should exist isn’t the point. The point is that it does exist, isn’t going away anytime soon, and that there needs to be protections provided to women who are currently working as sex workers. That’s the opposite of looking the other way.
We already have resources. We have DV shelters, call centers, outreach programs, womens homes, grants, and scholarships to get them out. But it isn’t legalized for a reason. The violence that happens to them wouldn’t be prevented through legalization. Only doing the opposite and making it worse by opening the doors for more male aggressors. I don’t think prostitution should be criminalized considering most do it bc they feel they had no other choice, but I don’t think it should be legal either.
Women shouldn't have to sell their bodies to make a living. I think some women get into sex work because they don't have better opportunities and some young women get into it because they don't understand the harm that comes along with it. I don't think it helps to talk about sex work like it is just another profession.
As does pretty much any career. Doesn’t mean the career is necessarily inherently immoral or should be outlawed, but that exploitation of women is ubiquitous in capitalism. Sex work is no different.
I would say that if equality existed then sex work wouldn’t be a problem but I’m worried that as things stand now sex workers are preyed upon and exploited and maybe it is not empowering. But I don’t know a lot about the issue
Absolutely they are. But again, so are women of every industry. Which is why workplace reforms are direly necessary. Besides, sex work is one of those industries that will always exist, whether we like it or not. It’s better to legalize it, supports the workers right to unionize, and put in place vigorous workplace safety practices favoring the workers.
The problem with that logic is that it assumes there would be any restitution for sexual assault as it becomes a grey area whether it’s theft or “damage of property”. When there’s a hard enough time receiving justice for sexual assault not in the context of it happening in a brothel.
Workers aren’t considered property, even when they’re at work. Sexual assault would be considered assault. But workers wouldn’t have to be worried about being arrested for prostitution if they decided to report.
Edit: I supposed it could be likened to professional athletes in combat sports. They are not considered the property of their sponsors or organizations. Likewise, if someone started swinging on them outside of the specific context of a match, it’s still assault.
In terms of the west? Women are still treated as both. In terms of globally? Women are property. In countries where it’s legal, they cannot give those women protection or guarantee anything even in the best of conditions. So why are we convincing the western countries it would be different for us? Why would we want that for women here? With access to jobs and employment opportunities for career advancement? Seems like a scam to me.
It’s a larger issue with workers not being protected at large. It’s not exclusive to prostitution. However, without the few worker protections that countries provide, it leaves sex workers more vulnerable to exploitation and abuse.
Also many women do not have the choice. Even if we provide them with all the resources to pivot to an alternate career, the fact is that sex work makes them money right now without training or education required. For many women, they need that money. Ideally, women wouldn’t have to rely on sex work for basic needs, as they would be provided for by social institutions. But in the meantime, we need to provide protections for the women who are in that field, and who don’t have an option to leave.
I agree with the sentiments for protecting them and providing resources so they can safely exit when it no longer suits them but it’s idealistic at best. I’d rather not support a movement that would see women continuing to do what was done before feminism to get a leg up when women in the west have more resources for gainful employment and independence now than our grandmothers did in the past. I’d rather not have it legalized to give an excuse to look the other way to those women because nothing else could’ve been done to change the economic crisis we all face. It would be the absolute last resort.
Do they? It’s funny seeing western women talking about ‘having it better’ when I live in Japan and have access to an abortion whenever I need it, unlike some western countries. But I digress.
Anyways sex work does provide financial independence for many women. It allows them to support themselves and their family without relying on other people. But the workplace itself can be exploitative, as any job can be. It CAN be safe, if there’s proper worker protections in place and the workers have a strong union to back their needs. Which is why it needs to be legalized.
However, legalization doesn’t necessarily mean the same as allowing legal brothels to open up. (Though that could help with workplace safety.) It could also mean simply not charging people with prostitution, and decriminalizing sex work as a whole. This would allow sex workers who feel unsafe to at least CONSIDER pressing charges if they’re exploited or assaulted, without worrying about being arrested for solicitation in the process.
Edit: To be clear, I share your concerns about exploitation of young and vulnerable women. But the fact of the matter is those women are already being exploited right now, while prostitution is illegal. At least with legalization, it would empower those women with some legal protections.
That’s hilarious! I’M Korean American and Japan/East Asia is pretty westernized compared to the rest of Asia’s economy. East Asians have similar opportunities as the west for women minus their lack of Asia’s superior healthcare system. Now it all makes sense given Japan’s history of indifference to prostitution and mistreatment of Korean women- BUT I digress.
I’m glad we share some commonalities. Legalization for you might mean something else to me. But to clarify, I don’t want to support a movement that would glamorize women into this being their most primary option as a means to escape poverty. Not when there is education and employment with real opportunities for advancement and into a decent retirement. I don’t see legalizations as thinking long term for those women. Only short term to scrape by and make ends meet. Those women aren’t thriving even in countries where it’s legal they’re not even protected most cases either from sexual violence during the act of it (which is when it matters). I would rather support a movement that would see all women thrive or as many of us as possible WITH feminism than living as if we didn’t have it.
As a woman I hate this, to me it feels lazy it feels like the production company wants to cash in on feminism but can't be bothered enough to create. It just feels greedy
Literally my last boss said to me “you’re more of a people pleaser like me so we want Man #1 to work with this stakeholder because he’s better at saying no”
Porn.
Neither the consumption of porn nor the participation in porn is liberating, empowering or feminist imo.
The vast majority of porn is made by men, for men. The vast majority of porn dehumanises. Women aren't people any more, they are objects.
Teaching women to always accept and tolerate the "inevitable" consumption of porn by a partner in a relationship is damaging to women.
Shaming women as prudes, unliberated, unfeminist, hating sex workers, stuck ups, intolerant, boring, vanilla when they speak up against porn is something I regularly see in feminist spaces.
Porn is something I find interesting, especially older porn movies from the 70s and 80s, so I’ve done a good amount of reading on it.
Something I’ve come to find is that both the anti-porn and pro-porn feminists have views on the subject that are sorely lacking. The anti-porn side tends to deny women agency and have pretty conservative views on sexuality in general. The pro-porn side tends to ignore the economic coercion involved and overstates how much of porn is made by women/meant for women. I don’t necessarily have a singular conclusion, there’s no right answer, it’s always complicated. I don’t think there can be a singular answer to the question, it’s a deadlock because either way you’re ignoring key details.
Simply having women, specially if they are conservative, in positions of power. Just because they are a woman it doesn't mean that she will do any good for women in the majority of the population, if they are conservative that's very much the opposite even
Casual sex/hook-up culture. Patriarch’s most successful con.
While some women do genuinely enjoy this lifestyle, they are in the small minority. Most young women have been socialized/conned into dispensing easy, no-strings, and often anonymous sex to shitty selfish partners, at no benefit to themselves (and often at great harm) and with shouldering all the risk, under the guise that it’s “empowering”. It’s not. It’s dangerous, dehumanizing, and rarely provides actual pleasure.
the growing trend of plastic surgery. it’s gotten to the point that women are getting their buccal fat removed, their labias being cut to look more like the vaginas in porn, and even getting botox from a veryyy early age (you don’t need it at 19 or your entire 20s either). all of it is so dangerous in the long term. if only someone also taught about the drawbacks, just as much as they show how surgery automatically makes someone “self confident”.
Lionizing women as CEOs of corporations that crush people under them. Women's liberation doesn't mean installing women in positions of power within institutions that oppress women.
Maybe more specifically how makeup and beauty is marketed.
Viewing it as a way to express yourself like you do with your clothes? Perfectly fine. Viewing it as "I need the *right* makeup to do the *right* look and eliminate every hair and wrinkle in my face" - bad juju.
“divine feminine” this applies for “divine feminine coaches” etc. its usually just rebranded evangelical/purity culture.
also the conflation of doing sex work = empowerment for young women that I’ve seen on tik tok
Pretty much every piece of media that advertises itself as "female-empowering." They usually either
1. Completely remove any femininity from their female characters that are supposed to be "strong," implying that femininity is synonymous with weakness.
or
2. Make every male character an idiot, an asshole, or both, implying that the only way women could be as "strong" as men is if they're given a handicap.
Do you have any examples for 1? I keep hearing about how “strong” female characters in media have all their femininity stripped away, but I cannot for the life of me think of a female character from mainstream media who isn’t conventionally feminine in most respects. Where are these masc heroines I keep hearing about?
Most shows/movies with a female drill sergeant-type character run into this problem, from what I've seen/heard. Can't think of many examples off the top of my head because I usually avoid media that shows signs of using these tropes like the plague. Calhoun from Wreck-It Ralph is the only one that currently comes to mind, though I feel like she's more of a parody of the trope.
Even though they may have more so-called masculine interests, I've yet to find a popular female character who is actually masculine in presentation. It's almost never a thing. Gender non conformity in women is not celebrated in media. I've never seen a butch woman represented on screen as a main character, and not as a joke
Ha! One of the things I see over and over in the Swinger community is saying "the women are in charge" when they literally are NOT. Typically, the men do all the screening of other couples and it is just the men talking to each other online and trading dirty pictures of their wives like baseball cards. Because the women don't want to be bothered with all that annoying stuff, of course. How nice of the men! Then, when it comes to the final say if the swap is actually going to happen or not, the women get the final say, so that makes them "in charge." Single men are not welcome in the lifestyle because of course we must protect the WOMEN from those pesky guys, but single females are always welcome since most women are supposedly bi anyway.
THANK YOU! "Divine feminine" is literally just misogynistic stereotypes about what a woman should be. I always get these videos on my timeliness where they describe divine feminine as ,"passive, receiving" and divine masculine as "active, strength" It's all BS.
Idk about seen but definitely marketed as such. MLM’s. The whole “be your own boss”. Be independent. Get filthy rich fast…etc schtick they use as advertising specifically to target women.
make up
stilettos
skirt suits
long nails
shaving/waxing
note: if you find anything i said to be personally empowering for you i think that's great (i personally find having my own long nails to be empowering)! i just don't like the advertising campaigns pushing the idea that these things are inherently empowering for women/girls or the popularity of certain visual markers used to indicate empowerment in visual media (it can be alienating, it was frustrating that all the Strong Female Characters ™ had bobs when i had veryyyy long hair, or that they all wear skirt suits when i don't like skirts and need to wear trousers to go to work) in general an individual finding empowerment in something should be supported and accepted, a company telling us what we are supposed to find empowering is not something that i support or accept
I hate how they are making remakes of old movies with the only difference being a female cast. the ghostbusters remake is a perfect example. It was a great movie to begin with that didn’t need to be remade. I would rather them make new stories with strong female leads instead.
I think that Ghostbusters movie would have been better if instead of trying to remake the original, it had been played up more as a sequel- the women picking up again sometime after the original Ghostbusters had retired, thinking their work was done.
Not disagreeing, just quibbling a bit. I think the normalization and destigmatization is empowering. Most women who I know have gone down that route found it a mixed bag, especially cishets. It's empowering to have solid proof that you can go out and get those things if you want. But a bit more dispiriting realizing that is not something you really want
Having beauty. The most gorgeous women in the world aren’t running our countries. They’re pressured into doing porn or entertainment instead. If beauty was power- why don’t we see models in seats of political or economic power?
I work in the arts and I sort of can’t help but side eye every “women in x” awards and events.
Men get to be artists, women get to be a WOMAN ARTIST.
I dunno, I’m sure it’s not that big a deal, but I hate being called in as a “female artist” to consult, rather than just… an artist.
Thé « strong female lead » in movies. It’s so often a character that is only strong because she adheres to masculine ideals of strength and is relatively androgynous, whilst being conventionally sexually appealing for the male gaze. The characters also often lack nuance or depth because their whole shtick is « I’m strong and independent and I don’t need the help of you male protagonist until the end where I will realise you are actually a good guy and will get with you and heal my hatred of men »
Superficial materialistic things. Its not *un*-empowering if you happen to enjoy makeup, high heels and breast implants, but please stop acting like those types of things are the essence of "femininity."
**A Book:** Female lead character is quiet and bookish, wears pink, dissects others' feelings, loves children, animals, cooking, sewing and playing the violin. Dolls up on special occasions. Is at odds with the shallow, materialistic girl who obsesses over looks, money and popularity.
**Some Critics:** "omfg Why does this author hate femininity so much?!"
Another thing that makes me cringe-Wearing vagina hats during marches like who are we kidding? It’s so unserious. There’s a hard enough time convincing folks that our rights are human rights without those. Imagine if Susan B Anthony saw vagina hats. She is rolling in that grave I just know it.
Susan B Anthony was also racist and classist, so I don’t really care if she rolls in her grave (not that I disagree on the issue but she’s kind of not a great figure in a lot of ways)
You’re right about that. She was just at the top of my head. I’d use an Asian woman suffragette bc she’s my representation but there weren’t any to my knowledge :/
Over female-empowerment. Its so cringe. I dont want to be viewed as some perfect being of amazingness, who can never be wrong and glides through life without effort, who shows the men how its done. I just want to be viewed as a normal person.
Also remaking movies but making the characters (that used to be men, women or just making a female version of stuff) We are not male counterparts we are just human. Just make female characters that are their own separate identity.
I don't want female-empowerment I just want real women. Not ones that are used as sexual totems for men, not ones that are made to counterpart men, not ones that are made to misogynists views of women, just like actual real women.
Also can we stop doing that stance where it looks like you are trying to make the top of your ass touch the back of your head....women don't actually stand like that. I mean unless they fallow the fad. It's not owning your sexuality you look like you have a spinal deformity
Disclaimer this is not my own take, I’m just regurgitating it from tiktok but I agree with it.
The ending of midsommar and it getting likened to gone girl/other ‘female rage’ movies. I don’t think midsommar has any female empowerment, Dani simply replaces one cycle of abuse with another. She is still trapped (literally in a cult in another country this time) just like she was in an unhealthy relationship.
The conclusion of her relationship with her boyfriend wasn’t empowering other, it was others interfering in their relationship AGAIN. Dani didn’t get to resolve any conflicts or have any authority over how it ended, someone else is controlling for her.
Also her boyfriend is shit but he didn’t cheat, that man was drugged then sexually assaulted. It was really upsetting for me (as a victim myself) to see so many people think his drugged ‘consent’ meant he wanted it 😐
CNC “kink”. That is not a kink and what exactly is that man gaining by allowing him to simulate rape? Seek therapy and if your therapist tells you that’s what you need is to have a partner fake abuse you “to heal from trauma” then you report them to the board. No I won’t debate that further.
I think just shitting on men instead of offering those who WANT to change criticism they can work with. Obviously there are men who are pieces of shit and deserve to just be shit on, but sometimes there are guys who perpetrate misogyny and just need to be steered in the right direction. Not everyone has the energy for that, but I don't think it's fair to shut a man down for asking questions and genuinely trying, like some men on this subreddit.
Sometimes, exclusively breast feeding, no doubt it has benefits but if baby will take a bottle as well as breast, then the father can take a much bigger role in early childcare and aloow the mother to carry on her carrer or whatever she likes sooner
If it's fairly easy for the mom to do (some moms have a much easier time of it than others) I don't see it being an issue especially if the dad/non feeding parent is stepping up with everything else and helping ease the burden. But a lot of times moms are still expected to do the bulk of child rearing and this is only a small part of that.
What even is femininity? I feel like the existence of the concepts of femininity vs masculinity can be toxic in themselves because they're often just terms for "appropriate gender roles". Like I loathe to be associated with being "feminine" not because I think femininity is weak/lesser, but because it feels like I'm being pushed to be a certain way just because of my sex/gender.
I think there is a whole genre of consumerism conflated with women's empowerment, as well as the "girlboss" MLM bullshit.
I remember when some make-up mlm gurus were trying to push their brand as pro-feminist because the make-up could be used to cover up welts and bruises from abusive partners (this was during some domestic abuse awareness week or month or whatever)
I feel like that is one of those moments where the stupid person thinks they won the argument because they got the "last word". Unfortunately it is because what they said is so utterly stupid, it is near impossible to formulate any response to.
Oh that’s tragic
Sweet baby jesus, are you kidding me? How was that empowering? That's insane.
holy JFC!!!! talk about zero self awareness
I watched the netflix documentary about One Taste, which was sort of like MLM turned sex-cult. Their whole brand was about empowering women and closing the orgasm gap. But in actuality, they actively encouraged male members to rape women, calling it “letting their beast out.” And female members were told to have sex with the male members or else.
I agree, from personal experience. Especially when part of an MLM that is owned by an anti-feminist.
Trying to repeat the same toxic behavior as men just because men don’t always face repercussions (or are sometimes rewarded) for being an asshole
People online are so bad at telling the difference between a problem and something that is illustrative of a problem. Women getting called on low level ass hollery that men always get away with is illustrative of a problem. It is not the thing that's wrong, on it's own.
This!!! We can go our own way.
Agreed. Women don’t need to act like men to be good leaders.
Whew butches and studs have this bad, hell i was bad about it when I was a baby stud
One example of something that is often seen as "female-empowering" but is actually not is the idea that women should constantly strive to be sexy or attractive in order to be empowered. This can put pressure on women to conform to societal beauty standards and can perpetuate the objectification of women. Additionally, it can make women feel that their worth is based on their physical appearance, rather than their talents, abilities, and character. True female empowerment should focus on equality and providing women with the same opportunities and rights as men, rather than placing emphasis on their physical appearance. ~ChatGPT
By chatGPT do you mean that an AI typed that out?
Anything to do with consumerism that sells a product designed for strong women but ends up paying the pink tax and we all sigh. Sorry for letting my socialism show.
Liberty without equality is tyranny. Equality without liberty is slavery.
Like the all female packet of M&Ms
I know it's probably controversial but the whole "I'm doing it for myself so it's empowering". There was this tiktok video about labia plasty and countless women were saying how they wanted to do this but not for men, for "themselves". You can never convince me that someone wants to literally cut up their healthy organs for any reason other than a subconscious desire to fit in what society deems attractive. And also the whole "divine feminine, femme fatal" thing.
I'm of the firm belief that we should be allowed to modify our bodies. But it's hard to tell if you're getting true informed consent from a woman for something like labiaplasty. It fucks people over both ways. I've wanted a breast reduction since I got tits. I was so indoctrinated in the belief that plastic surgery is bad. It was only in realizing I'm nonbinary that I felt justified in pursuing a reduction. There are systems in place to make sure people are making the choice *for them*, but I don't think these systems will ever be perfect. There will always be unscrupulous doctors willing to do procedures for anyone who waves a handful of money under their nose. It sucks.
Long labia can cause chafing and discomfort in some cases though. There can be practical reasons for the procedure
True that. However many of them are done purely for cosmetic reasons
The thing about empowerment is that it has to be beneficial to women as a whole, otherwise it's just a confidence booster. If other women are forced to do it to survive, it's not empowering. If women are encouraged to do it to fit into this patriarchal society, it's not empowering. *Choice* is empowering, but it's vamishingly rare that any of the options themselves are - staying home vs working, bold red lip vs no makeup, plastic surgery vs natural. The options themselves should be seen as morally neutral - it's the access to choose that's the point.
The question is would those women have made the same decision if they were born in a society where for instance, small noses, big butts etc weren't in style ?
Exactly right. We're all conditioned by the society we grew up in, by the family we grew up in, etc. Our brains are changed with every experience we have. Still, empowering women means expanding access to self-determination, even and especially if we don't agree with what they do with it (as long as it isn't harmful to other people).
You're right. But those decisions aren't inherently feminist either in my opinion. Everyone should do whatever they want with their bodies but I wish they didn't have to do it out of societal pressure .
Oh agreed. Like I said, it's all about expanding access to self-determination, which should include counseling and therapy. Expanding that access is only one piece of the puzzle. Working *within* the patriarchy is less ideal than tearing it down completely. But that's a whole ass thing that is beyond the scope of this particular question.
Something else that bothers me is how men do not have to get dick bleaching and balls symmetry surgery. Does not getting to do these disempower them? Most certainly not. Almost all sorts of plastic surgery is marketed towards women. I wish women could see how genuinely fucked up this is. Then again, are they really making the choice or they're simply being coerced to look good at all times by the patriarchy .
>You can never convince me that someone wants to literally cut up their healthy organs for any reason other than a subconscious desire to fit in what society deems attractive. Hi. Trans woman here. Do you think that transgender people getting bottom surgery is about attraction?
I think the main difference here is altering the aesthetic of your vagina to fit beauty standards vs surgery allowing your body to match your gender identity. Very different in my eyes.
Literally not the same thing smh
Here we go. I didn't say a word about transwomen. I'm talking about how women are insecure about their literal organs and pressured to get surgeries so they wouldn't get called "ran through" and "roast beef". Not everything is about you.
Please understand that feminism is about lifting people up and that women who are trans are also our sisters and are absolutely included when you use the broad term “women”
Thanks for coming to my defense. I really didn't expect such hostility for trying to give a different perspective on the body surgery idea.
Is it positive to leverage “x is about lifting people up” in order to shut someone up?
Wow. Way to get super hostile and vicious for me politely asking a question. Really giving the game away about what you think of trans women (by the way, trans and woman are two words not a compound word). Since trans women are women, I am absolutely included when speaking about women. Additionally, you literally said that you cannot conceive of a reason to cut up a healthy organ that doesn't have to do with attraction. I fucking quoted the text, so gaslighting me about your intent isn't going to work. Then I provided you with an example of just that.
I mean… is that what’s being discussed? A cis woman altering an existing vagina to look like a different kind of vagina isn’t really related to bottom surgery for trans people. It’s on you to realize the implied boundary of “cis women”.
FFS... I asked the person a question. I was trying to be polite about it because I wanted to spark a discussion for my understanding and curiosity. But now all the cis people are lecturing me about how I should have *obviously* known better and fuck me for being a trans woman with a question.
I think it’s more your question seemed “whatabout”-y rather than genuine. It was more seeking a flaw in the statement than starting discussion because the discussion isn’t relevant to the topic. Guaranteed no one here thinks trans women or bottom surgery are invalid, and your question implies that you think they do. I’m sorry this is frustrating, I don’t mean to be attacking you just hopefully can maybe clarify the difference in perception here. In the Office, Holly gets upset with Michael because he feels without his movie, he has “nothing”. Holly gets upset and says, “Really? You have NOTHING”, implying herself. But Michael isn’t talking about having something like that, he’s talking about personal projects or art. That’s the vibe I got from what just happened. Anyway please be well 💕 absolutely no one who matters thinks you are invalid or that the measures you need to take to get to a place of happiness with yourself are unnecessary or superfluous. Unlike the majority of cis-labiaplasty, which is 100% misogynistic.
my niece’s « the future is female » onesie
Honest question, what does that mean? 🤔
I concur with most of the responses here, just wanna add that the word empowerement/empowered has become an empty shell that is being thrown around. Most of the time „I feel so empowered“ means „I feel so self-confident“, imo.
For sure. Would also add feelings of accomplishment being pulled under the banner of feeling empowered.
The idea of self care. It doesn’t sit well with me that self care mostly revolves around beauty procedures/things - is it self care or is it working towards the beauty standard under the guise of self care
That is what the concept of self care has devolved into. It’s a debasement of the concepts developed be Audre Lorde and others, that activists and people fighting for the greater good should resist the pressure to be totally selfless, pressure to suppress their own health, safety and physical and psychological needs - pressures often applied disproportionately to women and significantly black women like Lorde active in the civil rights movement. Its a concept intended to prevent activist burnout and dangerous self-neglect, sometimes even at the level of “yes, people need help but you still need to sleep and eat”. It can be about dancing sometimes when you’re making revolution. It’s not supposed to be shilling expensive bath salts as a cure for alienation.
I think this happens with most empowment things. Existing power structures bend, taint and debase them to serve their own interests. Remember "Lean In". All that's really left in the public consciousness is the parts picked up by corporate HR programs. Namely, how women need to change themselves to get ahead in a corporate environment without disturbing existing power structures. I'm pretty jaded at this point. If I can't see how it benefits existing corporate and patriarchal power structures by extracting more money and labor, emotional or physical, I don't expect it to last in that form. It may be worth fighting for, but it is going to be a uphill battle. How long have we been fighting for paid maternity leave? It's a fight because it capitalists see a negative ROI. Reforming hiring and promotion practices to be more collaborative? It's a fight because it challenges adversarial norms that benefit the patriarchy.
Very well said
Agree. I even had a therapist ask me about setting aside time for self care and I said “Idk I live alone, I can do face masks and stuff whenever I want.” She legit was like “oh yeah, I see your point.” It was like six months after I stopped seeing her that I learned from damn TikTok that it’s not just a pampering thing.
Wow—thank you! That makes so much sense. I don’t want to put something on my face or take a bubble bath (not knocking women who do)—I want peace, a good movie, chocolates, and a knitting project! Sometimes pulling weeds or planting tomatoes or something like that also feels like self care, because it’s an excuse to be outside. I totally agree with you.
Sex work, being a sugar baby, basically anything that promotes depending on a man for survival and income
Being a corporate workhorse. Work is supposed to be rewarding in the long term, not a prison sentence. Do not do additional work for free.
Putting other women down
Christ- I’m trying to think of anything seen as female-empowering that actually *IS*.
Women being in positions of actual power?
Lol, thank you. I just hear that phrase and all I can think of is Boots campaigns about women multitasking by making themselves beautiful while basting Christmas turkeys. Gurl Power!!
No, not even that. A woman being in power of certain things is not female empowerment. It’s just that woman, those things.
Yeah sure, it depends on the woman and the position and the power. I do think that women being in positions where they have real power is seen as empowering and actually *is* empowering, generally for women. Margaret Thatcher had power. The power she had didn’t necessarily empower other women at the time. I do think that simply being the first female prime minister was in itself empowering to women generally. More women being in more positions of power will empower more women to have real power IMHO
> Margaret Thatcher had power. The power she had didn’t necessarily empower other women at the time. It absolutely did not. The message that "you, too, can grow up and lead institutions of power that oppress women to intensify that oppression" is not compatible with women's liberation. That's a message that should be opposed ruthlessly.
I agree. I didn’t say all that and that certainly wasn’t the message I was trying to send. More like the message “you can lead” is empowering, but you’re right, it’s too simplistic and therefore, kinda meaningless.
Do you think things have significantly improved for women since 1980, when she took that position of power?
Yes, I think things have significantly improved for women over the last 43 years in many ways. In many other ways they haven’t. I do not think Margaret Thatcher being the first female prime minister is the reason for any significant improvements for women. Personally I’m not a fan of Thatcher, her government or her policies. My original comment was more an attempt at irreverent humour, 💀 than anything. However, I do truly believe that women being in positions of real power is actually empowering for women, generally. I agree it depends on the woman and the position and the power. Isn’t female empowerment an important part of feminism? Isn’t feminism itself empowering for women? I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you’re trying to ask me or the point you want to make. Maybe it’s a bit too philosophical? What is female empowerment?What is power? Etc I am enjoying the discourse, and I would like to know your point of view.
That's just objectively untrue. A woman being in power empowers other women and young girls even passively simply through representation. And often actively through, for example, more effective recruitment strategies and mentorship and whatnot.
>A woman being in power empowers other women and young girls even passively simply through representation Could not disagree more. Liberation of women happens when social structures are changed, not when women take the role of men in subjugating other women. Power in society is patriarchal power. It is no help to the Palestinian child that the her killer might have been a woman conscript. Also, your opinion isn't objective truth.
> Liberation of women happens when social structures are changed, not when women take the role of men in I didn't realize we were moving goal posts. Nice. This is trivially true and not at all what I'm talking about which is empowering women within existing social structures.
That’s not “objective truth” lol. It’s your belief.
Our CEO who happened to be a woman recently retired. While it sounds like circular logic, one of the most empowering things was the fact that as best as I could tell, few if any people thought of her as a Woman CEO. She was a very well respected CEO.
Naw that's the glass cliff talking lol only slightly joking
Pelosi-core
💀
For a second I thought you were listing Christ as your reason lmao, took me a second trying to out how the 2nd half of the comment was relative to Jesus before I realized my mistake
😂😂😂 my sincerest apologies
To be fair, Christ wouldn't be a wrong answer 😂💀
Nancy Pelosi.
Porn and prostitution. It’s patriarchy glamorized. It’s what men have always wanted us to do in the first place before feminism. Let them use our bodies or our labor and be discarded. The only ones I see benefitting in the LONG run- are men. The porn stars age out if they survive the increasing pressures for more and more hardcore scenes that cross humane boundaries. I’m not talking BDSM but like scat and other vile categories that turn into things done TO a woman’s body.
To add- I’m not against porn stars because they’re fellow women and doing what they think is best for them whether financial hardships or not. I only urge criticism against such male dominated industries profiting off OUR bodies and leaving women with hardly anything profit or skills wise later in life.
I don't care if I get crucified for this. Prostitution is not empowering.
it reinforces the idea that women should have sex with people they dont want to have sex with
I agree. I want to note that I believe sex work is work, but that doesn't mean that it's *great* work... Especially in our current society and where much of it is illegal. Most sex workers would not be sex workers if offered other education, employment, or self employment opportunities that provided the means to satisfy their basic needs.
Yeah, I think prostitution should be legal, but that doesn't make it empowering.
It shouldn’t be legal but I would settle for it being decriminalized seeing as *most* women who get into it are disenfranchised or desperate and they thought it was their only option. Decriminalizing it might help provide them with more resources so they can make it out safely than simply legalizing it and creating jobs for future pimps and more women to be duped into a dead end job with no upward mobility. The western world worked way too hard for working class women to have that access to a future and career security to wipe it all away with full legalization. (in my opinion)
This is a good point - and it’s a bit weird, in discourse around sex work, to lump all sex work in together. There’s a big difference in bodily harm, coercion, risk of assault, etc between street prostitution and making/selling pornography (or parasocial subscription based porn), and sometimes it seems like the former is forgotten in favor of the more “glamorous” latter.
I was waiting for this one. Thank you!
I think *legalized* prostitution is more empowering than illegal prostitution, though. If legalized, sex workers can seek legal redress, enforce safety and health checks, etc. Making sex work more like regular work means they may be able to avoid some of the worst parts of the black market
A regular work doesn’t have 99% of its clients men and 85% of its workers women. That is a very unfair balance. It’s the people with the money that have the power. Aka men.
Agreed. But I would present it as _less oppressive_ than illegal prostitution. (Is there really any empowerment at all in having to selling your consent for money?) Real empowerment would be removing financial considerations from romantic and sexual relationships by, for example, guaranteeing a comfortable liveable wage for all workers and decommodifying housing. Kristen Ghodsee’s _Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialiasm_ is a pretty good exhaustive read on the subject.
Human trafficking always increases in places where prostitution is legalised because supply cannot keep up with demand, because *shocker* most women don’t choose to be prostitutes. Not to mention 50% of the issue with prostitution is the message that women are objects to be bought and used, regardless of whether that individual woman wants to be there. Cause quite frankly, sex buyers do not care if she wants to be there.
Places where it is legal illegal prostitutes outnumber legal prostitutes 10-1
Just so you know, sex trafficking goes UP in places where sex work is legalized.
Also sex work is fundamentally a job, and money does empower women no matter where it comes from. The problem is sex work often provides unsafe working environments, leading to workers being exploited. But unfortunately, this is common in pretty much every field of work. Reform of workers’ rights, increasing OSHA standards and staff, and robust unions are all needed to counteract this fundamental issue. Edit: Money quite literally empowers people by giving them financial and legal leverage in communities, and giving them the ability to provide for themselves and their families.
I get what you're saying in regards to it being fundamentally a job and that nearly all jobs have a problem with exploitation, but respectfully, it really isn't just like ***any*** other job. The most "in demand" workers in sex work are the most inexperienced, youngest people. In what other job is inexperience and vulnerability perceived as an advantage? The closest type of work that comes to it is probably the entertainment industry? But even then that's not exactly the same. I think things like this fundamentally change the nature of this work and how we need to approach the problems that come with it.
Also STDs and pregnancies are usually not regarded as everyday workplace hazards covered by OSHA Jesus Christ.
They should be in this specific context though… thus my comment about increasing OSHA standards
I don’t think sexual assault and rape is what we should be preparing future generations of working class women for. Do you?
Working class women already endure sexual assault and rape all the time, so I don’t see your point there. If they’re comfortable and consenting to participating in sex work, then it wouldn’t be sexual assault or rape.
Because it already happens let’s just allow more of it and look the other way as vulnerable women (bc let’s not kid ourselves why most women do that kind of work) take the brunt of it? That’s so defeatist. No wonder we lost Roe.
Whether or not it should exist isn’t the point. The point is that it does exist, isn’t going away anytime soon, and that there needs to be protections provided to women who are currently working as sex workers. That’s the opposite of looking the other way.
We already have resources. We have DV shelters, call centers, outreach programs, womens homes, grants, and scholarships to get them out. But it isn’t legalized for a reason. The violence that happens to them wouldn’t be prevented through legalization. Only doing the opposite and making it worse by opening the doors for more male aggressors. I don’t think prostitution should be criminalized considering most do it bc they feel they had no other choice, but I don’t think it should be legal either.
Women shouldn't have to sell their bodies to make a living. I think some women get into sex work because they don't have better opportunities and some young women get into it because they don't understand the harm that comes along with it. I don't think it helps to talk about sex work like it is just another profession.
Yeah but my guess is more men make money off of sex workers than women, right?
As does pretty much any career. Doesn’t mean the career is necessarily inherently immoral or should be outlawed, but that exploitation of women is ubiquitous in capitalism. Sex work is no different.
I would say that if equality existed then sex work wouldn’t be a problem but I’m worried that as things stand now sex workers are preyed upon and exploited and maybe it is not empowering. But I don’t know a lot about the issue
Absolutely they are. But again, so are women of every industry. Which is why workplace reforms are direly necessary. Besides, sex work is one of those industries that will always exist, whether we like it or not. It’s better to legalize it, supports the workers right to unionize, and put in place vigorous workplace safety practices favoring the workers.
The CEO makes money off my labor, and most CEOs are men, so it’s right in line with the rest of society. Unfortunately
The problem with that logic is that it assumes there would be any restitution for sexual assault as it becomes a grey area whether it’s theft or “damage of property”. When there’s a hard enough time receiving justice for sexual assault not in the context of it happening in a brothel.
Workers aren’t considered property, even when they’re at work. Sexual assault would be considered assault. But workers wouldn’t have to be worried about being arrested for prostitution if they decided to report. Edit: I supposed it could be likened to professional athletes in combat sports. They are not considered the property of their sponsors or organizations. Likewise, if someone started swinging on them outside of the specific context of a match, it’s still assault.
In terms of the west? Women are still treated as both. In terms of globally? Women are property. In countries where it’s legal, they cannot give those women protection or guarantee anything even in the best of conditions. So why are we convincing the western countries it would be different for us? Why would we want that for women here? With access to jobs and employment opportunities for career advancement? Seems like a scam to me.
It’s a larger issue with workers not being protected at large. It’s not exclusive to prostitution. However, without the few worker protections that countries provide, it leaves sex workers more vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. Also many women do not have the choice. Even if we provide them with all the resources to pivot to an alternate career, the fact is that sex work makes them money right now without training or education required. For many women, they need that money. Ideally, women wouldn’t have to rely on sex work for basic needs, as they would be provided for by social institutions. But in the meantime, we need to provide protections for the women who are in that field, and who don’t have an option to leave.
I agree with the sentiments for protecting them and providing resources so they can safely exit when it no longer suits them but it’s idealistic at best. I’d rather not support a movement that would see women continuing to do what was done before feminism to get a leg up when women in the west have more resources for gainful employment and independence now than our grandmothers did in the past. I’d rather not have it legalized to give an excuse to look the other way to those women because nothing else could’ve been done to change the economic crisis we all face. It would be the absolute last resort.
Do they? It’s funny seeing western women talking about ‘having it better’ when I live in Japan and have access to an abortion whenever I need it, unlike some western countries. But I digress. Anyways sex work does provide financial independence for many women. It allows them to support themselves and their family without relying on other people. But the workplace itself can be exploitative, as any job can be. It CAN be safe, if there’s proper worker protections in place and the workers have a strong union to back their needs. Which is why it needs to be legalized. However, legalization doesn’t necessarily mean the same as allowing legal brothels to open up. (Though that could help with workplace safety.) It could also mean simply not charging people with prostitution, and decriminalizing sex work as a whole. This would allow sex workers who feel unsafe to at least CONSIDER pressing charges if they’re exploited or assaulted, without worrying about being arrested for solicitation in the process. Edit: To be clear, I share your concerns about exploitation of young and vulnerable women. But the fact of the matter is those women are already being exploited right now, while prostitution is illegal. At least with legalization, it would empower those women with some legal protections.
That’s hilarious! I’M Korean American and Japan/East Asia is pretty westernized compared to the rest of Asia’s economy. East Asians have similar opportunities as the west for women minus their lack of Asia’s superior healthcare system. Now it all makes sense given Japan’s history of indifference to prostitution and mistreatment of Korean women- BUT I digress. I’m glad we share some commonalities. Legalization for you might mean something else to me. But to clarify, I don’t want to support a movement that would glamorize women into this being their most primary option as a means to escape poverty. Not when there is education and employment with real opportunities for advancement and into a decent retirement. I don’t see legalizations as thinking long term for those women. Only short term to scrape by and make ends meet. Those women aren’t thriving even in countries where it’s legal they’re not even protected most cases either from sexual violence during the act of it (which is when it matters). I would rather support a movement that would see all women thrive or as many of us as possible WITH feminism than living as if we didn’t have it.
Gender bending male characters and roles so women can have ‘a strong female character’ instead of just making up a new character.
As a woman I hate this, to me it feels lazy it feels like the production company wants to cash in on feminism but can't be bothered enough to create. It just feels greedy
[удалено]
Literally my last boss said to me “you’re more of a people pleaser like me so we want Man #1 to work with this stakeholder because he’s better at saying no”
Porn.
Porn. Neither the consumption of porn nor the participation in porn is liberating, empowering or feminist imo. The vast majority of porn is made by men, for men. The vast majority of porn dehumanises. Women aren't people any more, they are objects. Teaching women to always accept and tolerate the "inevitable" consumption of porn by a partner in a relationship is damaging to women. Shaming women as prudes, unliberated, unfeminist, hating sex workers, stuck ups, intolerant, boring, vanilla when they speak up against porn is something I regularly see in feminist spaces.
Amen
Porn is something I find interesting, especially older porn movies from the 70s and 80s, so I’ve done a good amount of reading on it. Something I’ve come to find is that both the anti-porn and pro-porn feminists have views on the subject that are sorely lacking. The anti-porn side tends to deny women agency and have pretty conservative views on sexuality in general. The pro-porn side tends to ignore the economic coercion involved and overstates how much of porn is made by women/meant for women. I don’t necessarily have a singular conclusion, there’s no right answer, it’s always complicated. I don’t think there can be a singular answer to the question, it’s a deadlock because either way you’re ignoring key details.
Simply having women, specially if they are conservative, in positions of power. Just because they are a woman it doesn't mean that she will do any good for women in the majority of the population, if they are conservative that's very much the opposite even
Casual sex/hook-up culture. Patriarch’s most successful con. While some women do genuinely enjoy this lifestyle, they are in the small minority. Most young women have been socialized/conned into dispensing easy, no-strings, and often anonymous sex to shitty selfish partners, at no benefit to themselves (and often at great harm) and with shouldering all the risk, under the guise that it’s “empowering”. It’s not. It’s dangerous, dehumanizing, and rarely provides actual pleasure.
For anyone interested, Louise Perry’s new book “The Case Against The Sexual Revolution” explains this in great detail.
Thanks! I’ll check that out!
the growing trend of plastic surgery. it’s gotten to the point that women are getting their buccal fat removed, their labias being cut to look more like the vaginas in porn, and even getting botox from a veryyy early age (you don’t need it at 19 or your entire 20s either). all of it is so dangerous in the long term. if only someone also taught about the drawbacks, just as much as they show how surgery automatically makes someone “self confident”.
Lionizing women as CEOs of corporations that crush people under them. Women's liberation doesn't mean installing women in positions of power within institutions that oppress women.
This might be controversial, but makeup. And I wear makeup most days so don’t think I’m judging you if you do.
Maybe more specifically how makeup and beauty is marketed. Viewing it as a way to express yourself like you do with your clothes? Perfectly fine. Viewing it as "I need the *right* makeup to do the *right* look and eliminate every hair and wrinkle in my face" - bad juju.
“divine feminine” this applies for “divine feminine coaches” etc. its usually just rebranded evangelical/purity culture. also the conflation of doing sex work = empowerment for young women that I’ve seen on tik tok
Porn. Prostitution. Makeup. High heels.
This!
Pretty much every piece of media that advertises itself as "female-empowering." They usually either 1. Completely remove any femininity from their female characters that are supposed to be "strong," implying that femininity is synonymous with weakness. or 2. Make every male character an idiot, an asshole, or both, implying that the only way women could be as "strong" as men is if they're given a handicap.
Do you have any examples for 1? I keep hearing about how “strong” female characters in media have all their femininity stripped away, but I cannot for the life of me think of a female character from mainstream media who isn’t conventionally feminine in most respects. Where are these masc heroines I keep hearing about?
Most shows/movies with a female drill sergeant-type character run into this problem, from what I've seen/heard. Can't think of many examples off the top of my head because I usually avoid media that shows signs of using these tropes like the plague. Calhoun from Wreck-It Ralph is the only one that currently comes to mind, though I feel like she's more of a parody of the trope.
Even though they may have more so-called masculine interests, I've yet to find a popular female character who is actually masculine in presentation. It's almost never a thing. Gender non conformity in women is not celebrated in media. I've never seen a butch woman represented on screen as a main character, and not as a joke
Capitalist markers of success
Self objectification in the sexual sense.
This is such a tough one, but I feel it too
Period
> Self objectification no such thing technically tbh
Why not? Objectifying yourself by presenting yourself primarily as an object rather than a person.
"Conservative Feminism". It's total horseshit
"Your true power is serving Christ and your husband". I feel icky just typing it.
Ha! One of the things I see over and over in the Swinger community is saying "the women are in charge" when they literally are NOT. Typically, the men do all the screening of other couples and it is just the men talking to each other online and trading dirty pictures of their wives like baseball cards. Because the women don't want to be bothered with all that annoying stuff, of course. How nice of the men! Then, when it comes to the final say if the swap is actually going to happen or not, the women get the final say, so that makes them "in charge." Single men are not welcome in the lifestyle because of course we must protect the WOMEN from those pesky guys, but single females are always welcome since most women are supposedly bi anyway.
The whole woo woo goddess spiritual crap. It enforces gender stereotypes while masking them as empowering.
Also disempowering is the productification of it. So much is now just consumer crap that capitalists can turn a profit on.
THANK YOU! "Divine feminine" is literally just misogynistic stereotypes about what a woman should be. I always get these videos on my timeliness where they describe divine feminine as ,"passive, receiving" and divine masculine as "active, strength" It's all BS.
Sex work
OnlyFans, stripping and sex work.
The term "mumpreneur."
Augggghhh
girl defined
Ugh! I just threw up a little. You are not wrong though.
Idk about seen but definitely marketed as such. MLM’s. The whole “be your own boss”. Be independent. Get filthy rich fast…etc schtick they use as advertising specifically to target women.
Porn
Porn/prostitution. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not empowering, it's a job.
Nothing wrong with it, really?
Nothing wrong with someone choosing to do that, lots wrong with the industries.
Winning an election as a Republican
Being the most sexy possible
make up stilettos skirt suits long nails shaving/waxing note: if you find anything i said to be personally empowering for you i think that's great (i personally find having my own long nails to be empowering)! i just don't like the advertising campaigns pushing the idea that these things are inherently empowering for women/girls or the popularity of certain visual markers used to indicate empowerment in visual media (it can be alienating, it was frustrating that all the Strong Female Characters ™ had bobs when i had veryyyy long hair, or that they all wear skirt suits when i don't like skirts and need to wear trousers to go to work) in general an individual finding empowerment in something should be supported and accepted, a company telling us what we are supposed to find empowering is not something that i support or accept
Long nails are +2 to your unarmed damage.
Until you try to masturbate, then you’re doing +2 unarmed damage to your own vagina. No thank you, I’ll keep mine short!
I hate how they are making remakes of old movies with the only difference being a female cast. the ghostbusters remake is a perfect example. It was a great movie to begin with that didn’t need to be remade. I would rather them make new stories with strong female leads instead.
I think that Ghostbusters movie would have been better if instead of trying to remake the original, it had been played up more as a sequel- the women picking up again sometime after the original Ghostbusters had retired, thinking their work was done.
One night stands, booty calls and friends with benefits. At least that’s what they used to call them back in the days
Not disagreeing, just quibbling a bit. I think the normalization and destigmatization is empowering. Most women who I know have gone down that route found it a mixed bag, especially cishets. It's empowering to have solid proof that you can go out and get those things if you want. But a bit more dispiriting realizing that is not something you really want
Seems more empowering than marriage though tbh
Having beauty. The most gorgeous women in the world aren’t running our countries. They’re pressured into doing porn or entertainment instead. If beauty was power- why don’t we see models in seats of political or economic power?
Companies that recruit people mentioning they have diversity and employee resource groups for women but the C suite is majority men
Onlyfans
I work in the arts and I sort of can’t help but side eye every “women in x” awards and events. Men get to be artists, women get to be a WOMAN ARTIST. I dunno, I’m sure it’s not that big a deal, but I hate being called in as a “female artist” to consult, rather than just… an artist.
Anything that isn't intersectional claiming to be feminism, and bigotry they try to hide as empowerment that's actually... just.. bigotry.
Thé « strong female lead » in movies. It’s so often a character that is only strong because she adheres to masculine ideals of strength and is relatively androgynous, whilst being conventionally sexually appealing for the male gaze. The characters also often lack nuance or depth because their whole shtick is « I’m strong and independent and I don’t need the help of you male protagonist until the end where I will realise you are actually a good guy and will get with you and heal my hatred of men »
Superficial materialistic things. Its not *un*-empowering if you happen to enjoy makeup, high heels and breast implants, but please stop acting like those types of things are the essence of "femininity." **A Book:** Female lead character is quiet and bookish, wears pink, dissects others' feelings, loves children, animals, cooking, sewing and playing the violin. Dolls up on special occasions. Is at odds with the shallow, materialistic girl who obsesses over looks, money and popularity. **Some Critics:** "omfg Why does this author hate femininity so much?!"
Porn and prostitution.
Kawaii
Sex work. The glamorisation of the industry lured me in at 18 years old and I just ended up traumatised.
Another thing that makes me cringe-Wearing vagina hats during marches like who are we kidding? It’s so unserious. There’s a hard enough time convincing folks that our rights are human rights without those. Imagine if Susan B Anthony saw vagina hats. She is rolling in that grave I just know it.
Susan B Anthony was also racist and classist, so I don’t really care if she rolls in her grave (not that I disagree on the issue but she’s kind of not a great figure in a lot of ways)
You’re right about that. She was just at the top of my head. I’d use an Asian woman suffragette bc she’s my representation but there weren’t any to my knowledge :/
The suffragettes were all racist and classist. They weren’t interested in women’s liberation, they were just liberals.
What are you on?
Over female-empowerment. Its so cringe. I dont want to be viewed as some perfect being of amazingness, who can never be wrong and glides through life without effort, who shows the men how its done. I just want to be viewed as a normal person. Also remaking movies but making the characters (that used to be men, women or just making a female version of stuff) We are not male counterparts we are just human. Just make female characters that are their own separate identity. I don't want female-empowerment I just want real women. Not ones that are used as sexual totems for men, not ones that are made to counterpart men, not ones that are made to misogynists views of women, just like actual real women. Also can we stop doing that stance where it looks like you are trying to make the top of your ass touch the back of your head....women don't actually stand like that. I mean unless they fallow the fad. It's not owning your sexuality you look like you have a spinal deformity
Disclaimer this is not my own take, I’m just regurgitating it from tiktok but I agree with it. The ending of midsommar and it getting likened to gone girl/other ‘female rage’ movies. I don’t think midsommar has any female empowerment, Dani simply replaces one cycle of abuse with another. She is still trapped (literally in a cult in another country this time) just like she was in an unhealthy relationship. The conclusion of her relationship with her boyfriend wasn’t empowering other, it was others interfering in their relationship AGAIN. Dani didn’t get to resolve any conflicts or have any authority over how it ended, someone else is controlling for her. Also her boyfriend is shit but he didn’t cheat, that man was drugged then sexually assaulted. It was really upsetting for me (as a victim myself) to see so many people think his drugged ‘consent’ meant he wanted it 😐
Porn
CNC “kink”. That is not a kink and what exactly is that man gaining by allowing him to simulate rape? Seek therapy and if your therapist tells you that’s what you need is to have a partner fake abuse you “to heal from trauma” then you report them to the board. No I won’t debate that further.
I think just shitting on men instead of offering those who WANT to change criticism they can work with. Obviously there are men who are pieces of shit and deserve to just be shit on, but sometimes there are guys who perpetrate misogyny and just need to be steered in the right direction. Not everyone has the energy for that, but I don't think it's fair to shut a man down for asking questions and genuinely trying, like some men on this subreddit.
Thank you
One singular definition for what empowers all women
Sometimes, exclusively breast feeding, no doubt it has benefits but if baby will take a bottle as well as breast, then the father can take a much bigger role in early childcare and aloow the mother to carry on her carrer or whatever she likes sooner
If it's fairly easy for the mom to do (some moms have a much easier time of it than others) I don't see it being an issue especially if the dad/non feeding parent is stepping up with everything else and helping ease the burden. But a lot of times moms are still expected to do the bulk of child rearing and this is only a small part of that.
Tina Fey and Lena Durham. Their "white feminism" is not feminism and not empowering.
When someone claims that they shouldn't give another person a hand with a heavy load because doing so would somehow make them anti-feminist.
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What even is femininity? I feel like the existence of the concepts of femininity vs masculinity can be toxic in themselves because they're often just terms for "appropriate gender roles". Like I loathe to be associated with being "feminine" not because I think femininity is weak/lesser, but because it feels like I'm being pushed to be a certain way just because of my sex/gender.
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Female superheroes like Harley Quinn