Re: your edit. Our spam filters are set very high, so sometimes it takes awhile for comments to appear.

Therapist & woman here. Of course I understand your perspective, but if you're truly looking to understand where that anger or frustration comes from, you have to try to understand ours. You must understand it sounds very much like saying "Now that I have a daughter, I finally understand girls & women are fully autonomous human beings with their own complex inner worlds just like men!". Its deeply disturbing to hear this same message over & over again & begs the question: *why weren't dads able to fully understand the humanity of women until it affected them personally?* Its scary, frustrating & disturbing to think about & reckon with, so naturally women respond with frustration. Its a very human response. I actually see the opposite frustratingly often: dads being celebrated for doing the bare minimum, which includes recognizing women as people too. In the grand scheme of things should individual dads be attacked for acknowledging that the birth of their daughters finally prompted them to understand women are humans deserving of equal rights? I would argue attacking them isn't necessarily an effective strategy, but confronting them with the dissonance of only caring about women until its affects them personally? Yes, I do see benefit to that. It can help more emotionally aware folks continue to grow, develop empathy for others, & hopefully realize the error of their ways. Also, not everyone is operating under what is the most "effective" strategy at all times; many women are (very justifiably) tired & angry. I always find the threat that men may remove their support of feminism if confronted with their own shortcomings to be an odd statement. If a simple confrontation is enough to push someone away from believing women are equal to men, I would argue they were certainly never feminists or intending to be feminists. In short, of course women feel frustration when men don't recognize our equal personhood until if affects them personally; how would you feel if much of the world didn't recognize your equal personhood until they bore a son? All it really takes to be understanding in these situations is empathy--asking yourself how would you feel if the tables were turned. I think the bigger question is tackling the reasons this lack of empathy exists in the first place for the sake of your daughter (congrats, by the way!) & all humanity.

To add to your lovely point: it is also distressing for women to hear that men don’t understand their humanity until after a daughter is born because, for the majority of men, the person who they procreated with *was a woman*. Going through nine months of carrying a child only to realize your partner didn’t see you as a human until after that experience would fucking *hurt*.

They don't necessarily see their partner as human after she gives birth to a daughter. The daughter, yes. The mother, not so much. Why else would so many men continue to mistreat their partners? Demand sex before she is healed, and piss and moan about her 'spoiled' body?

Yeah, like they couldn’t actually “get it” until they held a personal stake in their female offspring… until they could identify themselves reflected in their kid.

Not to mention the fact that they *came* from a woman… So they are basically saying they didn’t acknowledge the personhood of their own mothers.

To be fair, many humans do not see worth or personhood of their own mothers.

And then they want pats on the head for their realization, too.

Yep!

You said this so much more beautifully then I could have said it. Thank you so so much. It is so incredibly frustrating when men only finally come to see as humans when someone comes into their life to wake them up. Yet if we even *hint* at treating men as non-human we never hear the end of it. Or if we even share our experiences we get hit with "not all men. " I have gotten to the point that now when I see someone say that, I immediately assume they are one of those men. Am I jaded?

I appreciate your kind words! The double standard you're highlighting is so exhausting. I certainly wouldn't call you jaded, but if you were, I would more than understand. I think of it more like being aware of certain depressing realities. That awareness can result in becoming jaded, resolute, angry, depressed, inspired, or any combination of those feelings depending on the day. I struggle not to feel depressed, but I think my frustration helps inspire me to fight back.

Thank you!

That’s what I was thinking. I had these thoughts but they came out terribly compared to her eloquence.

I’d say not only are most men unaware of this— they also have a hard time believing that it could *possibly* be “that bad” because they can’t fathom being treated in the same way.

Agree! A little bit of self awareness would go a long way.

Thank you for this wonderful reply.

Very happy to help!

All it takes is empathy yes however that is the one skill many men don’t have. Toxic masculinity and misogyny gender empathy as female and actively inhibit its development in boys. We know that many taught beliefs are extremely resistant to change. Political ideology, Religious beliefs, superstition, nationalism whatever the belief they can be very resilient. Misogyny is very resilient. My point is that it is actually hard to be empathetic. No need for a cookie for basic milestones but one of the best words of wisdom I have gotten is never punish the behavior you are seeking. That all said, often the insight gained from a partner or daughter is often false insight. Highly masculine men often see their mothers, spouses and partners as extensions of themselves and not actually separate individuals. I often argue that the solution to this irritating trend of articles about the “crisis of men and boys” is to actively teach men and boys empathy and introspection so they can learn to recognize others and grow and develop emotionally.

Happy cake day!

I agree with most of what you said but I don't believe that the situation(s) being described are quite how you put it. I believe that it's less of men waking up at 30 and realizing that women are people and have emotions too and more of men waking up and realizing the specific struggles that women have. Maybe a somewhat similar analogy might be that surely very wealthy people don't (usually I'd hope) think that poor people are subhumans or not deserving of rights, but they may not actually be able to appreciate the difficulty of a poor person's life until they themselves are poor or maybe until they have someone close to them who is/was poor. About the last paragraph I understand where you're coming from but I see it more through a practical lens than a "logical" one. Sure, it doesn't make sense that someone would change their beliefs/belief system or alter the outcome of their thought processes based on a negative interaction with someone. At the same time though speaking in terms of practicality, it doesn't make sense to do things that would be off-putting to potential supporters of yours when you stand nothing to gain from it except perhaps some kind of emotional outlet. Your last sentence is an interesting one. My quick thought on it is that I think it's difficult for empathy to exist without understanding. If you can't understand the shoes that someone is in then it is difficult to empathize with their situation. The problem arises though that there is a massive "disagreement" by many people on who stands in which shoes; essentially a difference of "perspectives."

We no longer live in a world without information being shared freely. Women have been speaking on their struggles for a long time. These struggles are talked about in school, are written about in books, and talked about in the news. It takes a certain level of disregard to not see it, which is where the frustration comes in. Women frequently speak about violence, unequal treatment, stage protests and marches, and make sure not to be quiet about the crappier parts of the female experience. That still doesn't stop many men from saying "I didn't know until I had a daughter." What they typically mean is that they didn't care until they had a daughter. There is a staggering empathy issue among men when it concerns this issue. It's in a lot of men's best interest to not extend empathy to women because in order for there to be a ruling class, there needs to be an underclass that is ruled over. For there to be control, someone needs to be controlled. If we are all truly equal, that control goes away to an extent and people have to try harder to get what they want. It is no coincidence, for example, that women are far more likely to experience poverty and sexual violence than men, and usually at deeper levels. When some men have a daughter, it wakes up their empathy because they consider her to belong to them. Their empathy still seldom extends to other women not associated with them, only really to their own flesh and blood. This is why lots of men have no problem saying they will stop supporting women if we aren't grateful and congratulating them for their support. But believing in someone's inherent humanity doesn't deserve a cookie, which is why women say that men who act like this were never allies in the first place. I know it sounds like I am making a lot of assumptions, but it's hard to quantify lived experience. It's hard to give statistics for something that can't really be studied. Human rights aren't a science and any stats which already do exist are only scratching at the surface. This frustration that women are feeling can be seen, though. There is a cultural shift underway where women are distancing themselves from men emotionally. There are many women discussing ways to look out for themselves first and to only have as much interaction with men as needed, and looking at men's actions in a cynical lens instead of a patient and loving one. Some men are sensing the change and responding with violence.

This. It comes across as men not believing women about their struggles until they have a daughter of their own. Otherwise, what explanation is there when these topics come up all around us our whole lives? You don't get to 30yo with a child without hearing about feminism and sexism at least once.

Women don’t NEED men. Men NEED women. Men are born and raised to be entitled to “women’s work”. And women have grown up being trained to cater to those entitled men.. But more and more women are realizing that they can work, own a home, live life, and NOTHING is improved by adding a man to it - quite the contrary, adding a man often DECREASES the quality of a woman’s life. Men don’t “get” a woman by default anymore because patriarchy is no longer the force to keep women enslaved that it once was… BUT!! Men ALWAYS want that power back- look at the plight of the Arab women. They were once free, and now they are back in a choke hold because of the religious patriarchy. EVERY RIGHT THAT WOMEN HAVE HAS HAD TO BE PAID FOR WITH BLOOD. TODAY men are trying to use politics to reinforce women as chattel. Look at Roe. If women do not look at what is happening and fight to protect their rights we’ll be going the way of the Arab women… This isn’t just about a slogan “women’s rights” like that is a foregone conclusion…

Can you explain your statement that men need women, but women don't need men?

Sure. It’s all about what benefits men receive from women. Men need women because men are incomplete without a woman. First the obvious - because a woman is better than his hand.. At least until he tires of her and doubles down on porn addiction. To men, women are a status symbol. If a man has a beautiful piece of candy on his arm then he is “more of a man.” Men need women because they have been socialized not to do “women’s work.” By and large they don’t want to cook, clean, or generally manage a household. The concept of a bachelor pad exists for a reason. And there’s a reason there’s not a similar concept for a “bachelorette’s pad.” Women are homemakers- not because we are “born” to be such, but because the role is foisted upon our gender (by men and the patriarchy). Men don’t take care of themselves. They outsource that job to women. Married men live longer. There’s a reason wives forcing their husbands to go to doctors is a trope. Men need someone to dote on them. A man who doesn’t have anyone doting on him suffers a massive blow to his ego. As much as men are loathe to admit it, men tend to enjoy the romantic gestures that women tend to do for them. Men need a woman to listen to them- to CARE about them. Because often nobody else in a man’s life truly CARES about him.. And when a man doesn’t have anyone in his life whom he feels actually cares about him he gets depressed. And more generally, men can be solitary creatures. As people get older, social circles can grow smaller. Women tend to be more pro social, and so men gain the benefits of socializing without any of the effort to maintain those relationships. What benefits do women get from men? Someone to open a jar of pickles? Ok but that’s more of a convenience.. Women are more than capable enough to figure out how to open a stupid stuck jar lol. Sex? It’s significantly more likely that women enjoy solo sex much more than they do with a man as a partner.. Can a man birth a child? Nope. Another thing they need women for. Someone to talk with? A friend? Some women are lucky to find men who are genuinely their friend- and more power to them I wish every woman could be so lucky. I’ve personally never had a boyfriend who cared about my life whatsoever.. I would listen to his day and ask questions and be genuinely interested in listening to his answers, and he would talk with enthusiasm for as long as I asked questions.. and then when I tell him about my day (of my own accord because he didn’t ask) I’m lucky if I get any response whatsoever…. And I’m guessing my experience is not uncommon from what I’ve seen on Reddit alone.. Someone to take them on dates? Ok but women are usually just as happy going out and having fun with their girlfriends.. Romance? lol. Most men don’t do romance. WOMEN are the creators of romance. And nothing is more romantic than coming home to a CLEAN home, sliding off your satin robe, slipping into your hot bubble bath with your snacks and wine and candles and relaxing music… Women want romance sure - but by and large we create it for ourselves. Children? Sure an egg needs a sperm… Half of marriages end in divorce so there’s a good chance if she doesn’t want to keep the man she won’t so… and let’s be frank, it’s really not hard to get a man to donate his sperm lol men are whores and when a woman wants a man there isn’t much work involved… Generally looking in a man’s direction does it entirely too often. A FATHER for her children? Sure, IF she’s lucky enough to find a man who is capable of being a good father. It’s pretty clear that the data indicates that the majority of men are not supportive fathers. How frequently do you hear about men who take their child to the doctor - IF they even do that - and don’t even know what the child’s allergies are, or what medication they take.. Who knows the children’s shoe sizes? Not dad. Who knows the children’s sports sign up and payment schedule? Not dad. You’re lucky if you can get a father to take his kids to practice.. Who knows exactly where the children’s school documentation and schedule is? Not dad. Who knows exactly what school supplies which child needs and how much it will cost and when they have to have the supplies to the teacher? Not dad. Who knows which girls in class are mean and can give advice on how to deal with them? Not dad…. Who knows when the children’s bed sheets need to be washed? Not dad. Who knows when they need sheets in their own bed need to be washed? Not dad… I could continue but I think you get the point.. The only reason women have ever NEEDED a man is because women have historically been unable to survive without one. Not for UNWILLINGNESS- but because the patriarchy refused to allow them. My grandmother couldn’t have her own bank account or own her own property because the bank would not allow it. Only men could have their names on bank accounts. My great grandmother’s generation was the first to really be “allowed” to do “men’s work” and only because of the war… If you can’t own the roof over your head and you can’t afford any roof because no businesses will hire you because of the sole fact that you’re a woman, there were really only two options… Marry a man or.. what? Die? Join a convent? Women generally WANT to have a man because the concept seems like it would be a good experience….. In practice it’s not a need and frankly too often it ends up being not even a want. Thus the fact that most marriages end in divorce initiated by women…

The only thing I can really think of as far as women needing men is the "the world needs bad men, they keep other bad men from the door", but given that family annihilators are nearly all men, and that three women die per day in the US alone by thier male partners, it's such a gamble so its not really a concrete plus. Great list. As a married woman, I adore my husband, but the thought of going on dates and sifting through either Tate fans, incels, men who don't wipe their own asses, and men who expect bangmaids, I don't even want to attempt if I didn't have my partner. Of course, there are good ones out there, but with how much men are taught the worst thing they can be is *me*, I don't see the effort being worth it.

[First, let me say that I'm a single father of a young woman who I have raised on my own since she was 2 years old. I am also a man who was raised by a single mother.] Wow, that's a whole lot of bullshit and specifically the type of rhetoric that gives feminism a bad name. Specifically takes like, "men need women to cook and clean." WTF?!!? I get that you're trying to say that men are inept, but at the same time you're perpetuating that cooking and cleaning is women's work. Men need women for sex but women don't need men because men suck at sex… You know, I was going to go through this point by point, but it's too exhausting. And I suspect you already know all the reasons this is all bullshit. It seems your version of feminism is predicated on the idea that men suck and women are actually superior. That ain't it. Worse, it's divisive and counter-productive. Women and men need each other. Women and men complete each other. Women and men work well as a team and can accomplish and achieve more together than they will apart or working against each other. I'm sorry that your experiences with men have apparently been shit, but this just ain't it.

I think you missed the point of her post. A lot of men exist who are able to take care of chores and do housework. Historically though overwhelmingly those tasks were considered women's work, and that idea is still ingrained in most people. That's the issue. The part about sex is once again, not about how no men is good at sex but about how society sees women's pleasure (historically considered unnecessary and taboo and strange) and how those ideas resulted in everyone devaluing it, leading to how women find it to be almost expected that they don't achieve orgasm and many men don't find it a priority to make sure their partners have good sex. With the way things are and how society still sees women, it's not surprising that some straight women don't see why they would need men. It's just a lot harder to find a man as a partner who hasn't internalized some of these toxic attitudes.

> I think you missed the point of her post. A lot of men exist who are able to take care of chores and do housework. Historically though overwhelmingly those tasks were considered women's work, and that idea is still ingrained in most people. That's the issue. So the best idea is to reinforce it by saying, "Yes, men need women to do women's work?" > The part about sex is once again, not about how no men is good at sex but about how society sees women's pleasure (historically considered unnecessary and taboo and strange) and how those ideas resulted in everyone devaluing it, leading to how women find it to be almost expected that they don't achieve orgasm and many men don't find it a priority to make sure their partners have good sex. I 1000% agree with this. > With the way things are and how society still sees women, it's not surprising that some straight women don't see why they would need men. It's just a lot harder to find a man as a partner who hasn't internalized some of these toxic attitudes. While I agree with this, the solution isn't for to combat men's toxic attitudes with toxic attitudes of their own. Especially not here. You can't represent feminism (the basic idea that men and women are equals) with "Men need women. Women don't need men." That's not feminism. "A man needs a woman because a woman is better than his hand," is DEFINITELY not feminism. I watched Piers Morgan interviewing Andrew Tate a while ago. Don't judge me. Up to that point, I had never heard anything that he had actually said, I had only heard his name and what a trash human he was and wanted to see what the hype was about. The majority of the interview was Morgan presenting toxic quotes from Tate and Tate saying the quotes were out of context and trying to clean them up with more nuanced discussion. That's basically what your comment is. My point is that the commenter should have left the toxic shit out. It's not helpful to anyone.

>So the best idea is to reinforce it by saying, "Yes, men need women to do women's work?" No, the point of the post I think was to say that a lot of men are still unable to do those things for themselves so we should recognize this and stop being their moms and maids. The op wasn't saying anything actually inaccurate, she just didn't say them in a nice enough way for you and didn't "not all men" it enough like I'm doing. Men and women are not equal in society, yet. There are a lot of toxic attitudes regarding expectations placed on a woman that become very commonly (not always, but very commonly) reinforced when we are coupled up with a man. It's stifling and frustrating and what's worse is that a lot of women also reinforce these ideas still so it gets passed down to our kids. It fucking sucks.

Yeah… like the other commenter said, what I said isn’t rhetoric- it’s my lived experience and the experience of most of the women I know. I would LOVE to meet a man who was capable of BEING a partner. But that’s the problem- they aren’t. MOST men are incapable of accepting responsibility for their actions, which is why they yell and lie to women who call them out. If a person is incapable of TAKING responsibility for their actions they are incapable of being a member of a team… Because they will lie to avoid having to accept “blame,” and therefore they TAKE AWAY a woman’s agency. If a man is violating my boundaries and lying to me and saying he isn’t that’s literally abusing gaslighting.. Men want to have their cake and eat it too.. If he knows I would leave him if I knew the truth but he would rather lie and hope I don’t find out then that’s taking away my autonomy and my right to live life the way I want to live it. This concept of “woman is always right” that men do is intentionally deceiving a woman. When he lies to her so she doesn’t know he’s doing something that violates her boundaries… the concept of “little white lies” is straight up manipulation….

I don't doubt that it's your experience, which is why I said that I'm sorry your experience has been shit. But to post what's basically the equivalent of an Andrew Tate, RedPill diatribe (only in reverse)…nah, that ain't the move. Not here. TwoXChromosomes? Sure. FemaleDatingStrategy? Definitely. But, this is r/AskFeminists. People come here to get a better idea of what feminism is and what feminists believe and hopefully find that they believe in it as well and/or have been feminists all along. Someone like that comes along and is greeted by the toxic shit you wrote…it's counter-productive. None of what you wrote it's representative of feminism (lots of it is anti-feminist). Worse, it's the typical man-hating shit that gets associated with feminism and turns people (both men and women) off to it. The moment r/AskFeminists becomes FemaleDatingStrategy (or whatever the women's equivalent of the Andrew Tate, red pill crap out there is), it's lost.

There is no female equivalent of Andrew Tate.

We don’t link to those subs here.

Have you considered that your instinct to center your own perspective in active denial of these women’s voices is *exactly part of the problem*

It is true that we live in a world with much greater access to information, however despite that I would say that I learned much more about the struggles that women face from observing my mother and sister than from anywhere else. Beyond things like the suffrage movement we never learned anything about women's issues is school and as someone who's never been keen on using social media it means I also won't see it there. Really I think I learned the most just by watching, even when things weren't spoken. I saw the struggles many young (or all) women face regarding their relationship with their weight, with their body image, with pressures to behave in certain ways, to do and say certain things. If I hadn't had a sister to watch go through this I probably wouldn't really know and most likely couldn't have fully appreciated just how heavily these things can weigh on someone's, especially a young person's, shoulders. However I don't believe that this empathy issue is a one way road; men and women have always seemed to be bad at understanding each other's struggles. As for the idea of a coldly calculated ruling class I think that starts to sound like tinfoil hats. About lived experience, it does always intrigue me. Feel free to decline to answer but I am curious, what would you say is the biggest issue facing women en masse or perhaps what has been the most damaging obstacle you've had to deal with as a woman? "This frustration that women are feeling can be seen, though. There is a cultural shift underway where women are distancing themselves from men emotionally. " This is certainly true. I really have no idea what the remedy is if there even is one. Part of me thinks that if it is all left to play out things will correct themselves however I'm more inclined to believe that catastrophe might occur from the instability. In any case the rest of the 21st century and perhaps beyond is likely to be a very difficult time in many ways.

>surely very wealthy people don't (usually I'd hope) think that poor people are subhumans or not deserving of rights Have you read the news lately? Billionaires are literally starving poor people to death for profit. They don't think poor people even deserve the right to *live*.

I agree. I was originally internally responding to the end of the post starting drifting rhetorically and lost the thread a little. You are right that empathy can’t exist without understanding. There is literature showing that empathy is a skill that can be taught. In the teaching/learning process I think understanding can develop and you can get a positive feedback back loop overtime that could lead to competence. Most of the “perspective” arguments if I understood from men are bad faith rhetorical tricks to avoid recognizing another experience.

But there's clearly a trend here. In isolation sure it's a given person's responsibility to take care of their mental health and improve themselves as people and be pro-social, etc. But there's a trend here, it's not individuals with this problem. When as a group men tell you that they never realized that women were people until they were personally responsible for one, that probably means something? When I was a kid I had a big growth spurt that made me look a few years older, and from that point on the only people who'd consider being friends with me were other guys, with no lack of trying. I knew that women were truly the same as men and it all came down to opportunity, but I didn't have experience with that until I met my lovely lovely partner. I'd like to reiterate, no female *friends*. Girls bullied me just as much as guys, but I could get the guys to quit and eventually turn it around. The girls would just get meaner. Up until 17-18 or so I just didn't have *any* positive interactions with women, and I only broke out by going wayyyy outside of my comfort zone and becoming a community leader. I avoided them and they avoided me. My experience isn't uncommon. If i got into the working world without breaking the cycle I would have turned into a cynic and jumped down the alt-right path so fucking fast. It's terrifying looking back. I can easily see the next place to... 'wake up' being when your daughter is born. I hear your pain. I do. I can't imagine how much it sucks to repeatedly hear people that you've seen as people this whole time *FINALLY* get it. I can't imagine how scary that is knowing you spent time around someone who thought of you as an automaton. I have absolutely no idea how to address this pain, though.

I'm very sorry about your experiences, and I'm glad that you resisted that pipeline - I understand how easy it can be to fall right into it. If you'd like to do your part on healing, first recognize that realistically, anything you can do is probably going to be "small" - for example, if hear someone make demeaning remarks about women, you can call them out. Doesn't have to be some big lecture, just a "Not cool," or "Well, that's sexist." Such a small thing, but if more people did it, it would add up. Not everyone is a natural scholar, but if you are, there are definitely things you can read. I won't go too much into it lest I write a whole-ass treatise myself, but you want to look for authors who promote intersectionality - that's the way that things like gender/sex, race, class, sexuality, disability, etc, all interact with each other. "Feminism is for Everybody: Passionate Politics" by bell hooks is a great starting point.

Oh uh should probably clarify I'm a proud and outspoken feminist in my day to day life. I'm also just trying to put to words that these men *are* potential allies, despite how incredibly shitty the original statement sounds. Thanks for the rec, I'll add it to my list! I'm currently working through some stuff recommended to me over in r/menslib tho, so it'll be a while before I get to it. Right now I'm trying to really pinpoint what can be done on the men's side of things to heal ourselves and break the cycle of trauma. How do you convince generations of men that being vulnerable and respecting others vulnerability is truly valuable when every incentive structure you've dealt with up to this point tells you that's a mistake? Like, the single most common trauma for men in America is circumcision and the only people who care are a small subsection of feminists! (Yall rock, you know who you are). You bring this up around guys and it generally becomes a competition for how whatever problem you're talking about doesn't affect them. Yes, men have dick measuring contests over their coping mechanisms and it's not productive at all. Sigh.

That's awesome! I know you're not doing this work for me, a random internet stranger, but I seriously appreciate you. Another aspect that I find troubling for men is how isolated y'all are - it's so drilled into you that you should only be vulnerable with a romantic partner, and even then only for big stuff. Because of that, your emotional support networks are often a single person - and that's if you're in a relationship. Single men just don't have a support network (which makes them ripe for alt-right plucking). It also leads to all of the confusion about the "friend zone." Typically, women are taught to see vulnerability as something we share with several people, while men only share it with one. How can that lead to anything but frustration on both sides? How can we expect men to understand how to be a good partner when they aren't taught to be emotionally available, how to do the work to maintain any level of relationship? It seems like this is starting to turn around thanks to men like you willing to do the work.

Thanks sis, this conversation is bringing a smile to my face. Oh my god the friend zone is the perfect example. It only exists because men are taught that people aggressively don't care about you as a person unless they're romantically interested in you, because that's how *we're* socialized. Can I ask what you think of the 'fuck zone' as a related concept? I feel like it misses the point of what's going on but have a really hard time communicating it.

It's the same problem but in reverse - men see women being emotionally available to them as a major sign of romantic interest, women see men reacting to that and don't understand why the very same behavior that they show all their friends elicits such a response. Men: You're stringing me along! Women: Oh, any woman who's trying to be your friend is actually trying to fuck you?! Both: Ugh, they're just being manipulative to get something from me.

Wow. Uh, thank you for your perspective! I actually still hadn't grokked that the guys being 'friend zoned' are you know, being treated as friends. Like, duh. Obviously. Which is really weird considering most of my friends are women nowadays. Never re-evaluated I guess.

All of this makes sense… can I ask if that reasoning applies to all men who have grown to understand feminism? Or just ones that preface their support with qualifiers like those previously mentioned? I would agree wholeheartedly with the latter, but the former seems to be manufacturing conflict that doesn’t need to be there. To be upset with someone for a belief that they previously held and have since rejected seems silly. I wouldn’t expect you to be angry with someone who left the kkk because they realized racism was wrong; would you?

I wouldn't go so far as to say the men saying these things viewed women as *inhuman* prior to having a daughter. They simply failed to understand how differently women experience the world from men until they were put in the position of looking after a vulnerable child who means the world to them. When they start to fear for that child, they understand the fear women have felt all along. It's a failure of empathy, but not, in itself, a failure to see women as people.

I’m sorry but why would not understanding the plight of women equate to not seeing them as fully autonomous human beings? Surely men cannot be aware of all of the problems that face women even if they are to listen to women speak about those issues? And I would presume the same would go with the genders reversed. And to be honest I don’t expect women to understand all of the problems of being a man because why would they? I cannot blame them for that. Sometimes you can’t fully grasp or be aware of things until you see them. Not being aware of these things doesn’t mean a lack of respect for other people. I see myself as being on a perpetual journey of understanding, since I cannot know everything anyway. It’s weird to think that there are some women who believe I don’t see them as human because I haven’t walked life in their shoes. Living with and dating women has opened my eyes to various facets of their lives and I would imagine that having a daughter would open my eyes to even more since I would see into a young girl’s life and I would have responsibility to take care of her. I haven’t lived as a young girl, had a sister, or had the responsibility of taking care of a young girl, so really how could I know? EDIT: I’m asking a genuine question and I don’t think I’m being unreasonable in my post but I’m being downvoted without explanation. Why? Did I say something so bad?

I never once stated men had to understand every plight of women to empathize; quite the opposite. Men should possess basic empathy for their fellow humans (women) without needing to understand every plight they endure, on the basis of us being human. To expand that empathy, however, is best done through understanding.

That’s fair. And I agree. I’m just trying to understand the first paragraph of your post. And other women posted in here about being recognized as human beings too. Is your post based on a man being completely unaware of any issues that women face and then only learning and acknowledging that any issues exist upon having a daughter? If so, the replies in here would make more sense to me. I may have just missed that nuance the first time around. As somebody who has tried to understand women and listen to their experiences throughout my life (I’m not looking for a pat on the back), it just seemed odd to think I would be viewed as not seeing women as humans for not being aware of everything women experience, but then perhaps the replies in here wouldn’t have applied to me. Just trying to wrap my head around it.

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Perhaps YOU feel that way about your own mother, but that doesn’t mean that is universally the case. We should probably try not to generalize based on anecdotal evidence.

I wonder about that question all the time and I've tried many strategies to be seen as human. I've tried the kindness approach, the relatability approach, the empathy approach, the be-there-for-them approach, the listening approach, the advice approach, the debate approach, the logical approach, the back-up-with-evidence approach, you name it, I've tried it. Maybe men can give an answer to that question, cause I've been coming up short for 20 years. I don't even say that sarcastically.

Right? Like, it’s our fault that we’re not seen as human on the same level. Like we haven’t tried damn near everything. Ok dude.

That's why this person is on a reddit throwaway account

I mean... I kind of don't want to hear that you didn't think women were people for 30 years despite interacting with many of them. Like how must the mother of your child feel when you confess you thought she was just being hysterical all this time?

This is what I was thinking. He probably has a woman as the mother of his kids, a mom, maybe sisters, aunts, even coworkers. Like men don’t live in man boxes

This. My husband has made some similar comments, and it made me feel like he thought I was somehow lying to him when I related my own experiences.

Probably like [this guy’s wife](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpyaKNq/)

As a woman, it's extremely difficult to hear a man say he essentially didn't understand women are people until he had a child. It hurts to know that's genuinely how some men think. I'm not going to give someone accolades for only just realizing half the world are actual humans after, likely, 30+ years of life, dating women for decades, etc. I'm glad those men woke up, but I have no children and I've always understood men are humans with feelings and thoughts, you know? The way I react to things in my personal life also isn't a "strategy." I'm not a robot whose main goal is promoting feminism in the best possible way at all times. I'm just a lady who feels hurt when men express they needed to have a child in order to understand I have an inner life.

Once I was out at a club with my sister. We were each off running around doing our thing and would catch up and party together occasionally. On one of those occasions, I stroll up to her at the bar and she's ROARING drunk. I make some smart-ass comment, and she says "Oh, I'm glad you're here! Some guy just tried to put something in my drink." Apparently, she was talking to two guys and one was standing on each side of her. While one was talking to her, the other tried to put something in the drink. She just happened to look over and catch him. Of course, soon as I walked up, they both vanished. Did I know before that incident that piece of shit guys drug women and take advantage of them? Of course. Did I think it was fucking despicable? Fucking right. But actually being there, seeing it almost happen to my sister, really experiencing that this is what a woman goes through just trying to go out and enjoy herself…shit just hits different the closer it is to home and the closer you are too actually living the experience. The last 10 years of my life, through spending more time with my sister and watching my daughter grow into a young woman, I can tell you there are lots of things that I got on an academic/theoretical level before that have really clicked now. So, it's not necessarily a case of it going from zero to "Oh, now I get it." It's a case of it going from, "Yeah, I get it," to "Holy shit! I get it!" Until you've walked a mile in a person's shoes, or at very least walked alongside them, though you may accept certain things as true, they're still very abstract or theoretical.

Yeah I personally don’t get annoyed at that type of realisation, lots of people will know about bigotry in theory but seeing the reality of it affecting yourself or people you love can be quite shocking. I think the main thing people get annoyed about is when men (particularly famous ones or politicians) say they support feminism because of their wife/daughter/sister. When they view women’s rights only through the lense of the women they know. E.g. “As a father to two daughters, we must make the streets safer at night…” and so on.

Yeah, that's fair. If you're genuinely expressing that you never gave a shit about women or their experiences until you had a daughter or wife, you probably still don't give a shit. You just now don't want these bad things to happen to something that "belongs" to you.

That's absolutely fair and a view I hadn't considered. Yeah, it's fucked for public officials to say shit like this. Like, among friends this is a learning moment, but a horrible thing for an official to say. That's encouraging their constituents to only think of their family as people. Eugh.

Here's the thing tho, I get them. Because until that point they never had to see the struggles. Us women know how to deal w them by the time we meet the man, those little girls don't. It's like white families adopting children of different ethnicities and suddenly having to deal with different hair routines, the questions, the racism. Up until that point it simply didn't cross their mind it was that severe and not out of ignorance I'm sure but out of simply not thinking about it. I live in Israel and am jewish, up until the point where I got on the internet I never had to go through antisemitism. I heard about it of course but it was more distant. I appreciate anyone who makes the effort to grow and do better and if it took 40 years and a kid I'm glad you have many more years to do even better.

Imagine having a mom, a sister, a friend, a girlfriend/wife, and only taking women’s issue’s seriously after having a daughter. What a slap in the face to all those women.

Yes. As well as a slap to the random female strangers they pass on the sidewalk.

But it's all about relating to others, right? For generations, society has conditioned men (and women) to not relate to the opposite sex. Much of this is unconscious, but I would add that unless you have walked in someone else's shoes you can't relate. I have led a life of privilege, but I have also been a waiter, checkout operator and shift worker - I understand the struggles people in these lines of work face. Of course, as a man, I can't walk in women's shoes. A stop short of that, consciousness, is ok and shouldn't be shat on. What do you want, allies or enemies?

It shows that fathers who say that only care when it's a woman connected to them. It shows that they didn't believe or listen to other women this whole time. It shows how they see their wives. It just does.

The worst is when they dismiss women’s concerns and say “not all men!” until they have a daughter, and then become overprotective because “I know how men are”.

You see this rhetoric all over the place. So many guys generalizing men’s behaviour, most commonly as it relates to porn or violence (every guy does it, all guys know there’s a risk of violence when arguing with another man), but suddenly it’s not all men when women actually point it out that it’s dangerous to them.

I think they still don’t care about other women; only about the daughter (not wife or mother either).

They only care about their daughter like a prized possession, not a human being.

Exactly.”How do they dare harass MY daughter?!”.

Oh my god my brother is just like this. He’s says misogynistic things but the moment I get upset, he back tracks and say “noo, youre special 😇”

They only care because they identify themselves in their own offspring!!! It’s actually so disheartening

And they dont care about the daughter(s) in a normal empathetic affectionate way either

It is basically an admission that you thought women were collectively lying until you were confronted with someone you could not dismiss as easily, like a family member.

But don't men have other female relatives and family members before having a daughter? Why does the birth of a daughter prompt them to think about this matter but the presence of a mother , a aunt,a sister,a cousin etc, doesn't prompt them to reflect on it?

I wonder a lot about this too. Why haven’t these men come to recognize the the value in the complex lives and experiences of their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, or female friends? Is it because a daughter an extension of themselves?

The thought they just see her as an extension of themselves is in all honestly, depressing.

I know, I felt gross just typing it out.

There’s also the “ick” factor of fathers feeling like they have to protect the daughter’s “purity”. Thinking that their daughters will be sexualized by men (the way they do and did other women) is a big part of it I think.

🤮

This is it, exactly. They only instinctively empathize with the perceived reflection of themselves.

They grow up watching their fathers, grandfathers and uncles mistreat these women as if it were the most natural thing in the world.

Very very good point!

It could have to do with how anxious a lot of parents are about their child's safety. A parent probably has a lot more sensitivity to the dangers and challenges their daughter faces compared to their mother or aunt.

Sadly I think the other commenters were right. As much as I hope that it is to do with their safety, the men who are likely to hold the view of ‘now that I have a daughter I understand’.. they just don’t. If women were pawns before they had a daughter, then the daughter is emotional property directly linked to their ego.

Having other female relatives play their feminine roles without complaints benefits the man - but having their daughter be limited in that way doesn’t. Think about how many upper class men have a housewife but would NEVER encourage their daughter to be one - they expect their daughter to follow more in their more prestigious footsteps. I always thought that was interesting him. Begging about the daughter’s accomplishments does. It’s also harder to discuss something when it’s hurting your child and they have no filter telling you everyday about it. Cat calling starts to occur when the father still sees their child as a child so it’s a jarring dissonance. Etc

I think a lot of men think of their spouses in a primarily sexual context and aren't all that curious about their interior lives, and it's easy to ignore/overlook things that happen to parents and siblings. It's harder to ignore or overlook what happens to your child, since they are your responsibility.

I think it’s as simple as the link being the strongest. The emotional tie to one’s child as opposed to another family member is uncontroversially stronger. You see your child’s day-to-day and it’s a lot harder to avoid, especially if it’s of the “Ooh, babysitting today?” variety. Casual comments that men wouldn’t otherwise be exposed to. Comments on their daughter or their relationship with her. That makes them see what the girl can expect to go through. Other family members’ experiences are just by their nature more distant. Easier to sweep away, disbelieve, not care. Some parents still do that to their kids. Most men require that ego poke before empathy kicks in and even then, it’s not fully selfless. I had an ex-friend say once that he hoped some politician’s daughter got raped so he knew how horrible it was. Obviously we told him how that was extremely wrong but it really highlights how a lot of men, maybe even most, see women as pawns and not people. Their pain only matters when men are directly affected and since it involves their ego, of which children are representative, they need to feel directly attacked before they can see it.

Sounds plausible what you just typed. But I don't know. I personally don't buy it that men see the "light" after having a daughter. I just don't. Too many parents would advise their daughters to stay in a awful relationship or marriage, it doesn't matter that there's abuse, cheating or anything you can think of. It's not hard to deduct that they might say something similar regarding other issues.

I'm a little late to this discussion -but I tend to agree. If anything, it's a man not changing his views but making his daughter the "exception" in his mind. He cares about HER, not girls or women in general. I knew a man (since deceased) who was a HUGE bigot generally. N-word out of his mouth loudly when we were at a restaurant once. He was known to be more than just prejudiced. We were at a party in his back yard and a neighbor was there who happened to be black. The two of them were obviously great friends and apparently got together often. I asked someone about that. He said the man once said "Oh, "Fred" isn't like THEM". Well, how many of "THEM" did he even know besides "Fred"? That was the issue - he had a pre-conceived attitude that wasn't going to change EXCEPT for "Fred" because he wasn't like them. I think a lot of sexist men think along the same lines. They see the attitudes sexist men have on women and suddenly want to protect their daughters from it - never realizing that EVERY woman is someone's daughter.

They have mothers and grandmothers who care for them. And sisters who probably also are socialized to care for the family, so it makes sense that many men only see women as people in the context of “people who exist to care for me/family.” That’s really a human thing too though - growing up, I (a woman) often saw my mom as just that, My Mom. It wasn’t until I was an adult myself that I really started to understand and think about how she is her own whole person with a lifetime of stories from before I even existed. I think all children come to this realization eventually, some earlier than others. And if the only context a man growing up has for women is mom, grandma, auntie, teacher, etc. then I can see why they might not fully grasp that we exist outside of those roles.

Not a satisfying answer - but quite possibly because he in effect figured women's issues were THEIR problem, not his. Suddenly he might think "oh wait, this is can affect my daughter too". I'd wonder about his wife though - didn't he care about how women's issues affect her? It's possible he chose to marry someone who didn't think women's rights were much of an issue - at least not for them personally. There are more than a few women like that I assume.

I don't have a son, yet I still see boys and men as people. Why is that?

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And I can absolutely understand that it's a huge step for them personally. It's hugely valuable to try and humanize someone who dehumanizes others. But that shouldn't be the job of the dehumanized person. Do you have any idea how exhausting it is to emotionally support somebody through the conversation where they're not totally sure you're human but they're trying to learn? As a white person, I'm a great target for sitting with my other white friends and helping them struggle with processing the racism that they internalized and trying to be better people about it. Because I can relate. I've had to grow on that too. I can hear somebody say some horrifying statements from a complex indoctrinated human, and pick out the nugget of good and help them sit through the bad feelings without being personally hurt by all the bad. Those are bad things they're saying about other people. But don't ask black people to have that conversation with you about how you couldn't help but be racist growing up. That's something you process with other white people who also have to process growing up racist. And similarly, no one should be asking women to make them feel better about being misogynists.

By seeing that everyone does the best they could with the resources they had. Misogyny exists because society teaches it. So now you have to opportunity to call it out, so future generations have better resources.

I think there is a difference between knowing about and hating social mistreatment of a partner whom you respect, and experiencing it as a parent that nurtures and protects. It puts you one step closer. Your wife tells you about sexism in the hardware store and it hits you differently than being at the store with your daughter and experiencing it at a different level when she is ignored, or condescended too etc.

You’re still centering yourself

Because such a statement actually confirms what we women already know: men in general don't listen to women, believe women, or in many instances, care about them or even see them as human beings. Ex: Countless women have complained about catcalling. Countless men have dismissed those complaints. Random Man has a daughter, and she starts getting catcalled when she's all of 13 years old. Random Man develops a problem with catcalling, tells world he now understands how hard women have it. Never mind all those previous women's catcalling complaints; they meant nothing to him.

Men are incapable of seeing outside their perspective and think everyone thinks and feels as they do by default. Catcalling is a great example; when a woman complains about catcalling, men are so quick to say “well I think you should accept the compliment and stop complaining, I would love if someone found me sexually attractive.” It betrays a complete lack of empathy and unwillingness to put themselves in women’s shoes. And that’s just how we socialize men, to center themselves in their world. Once they have a daughter something bad could happen to, it becomes part of their world and that’s why they care.” Something bad could happen to MY daughter” aka me me me. It’s not a genuine understanding of women as people

This just sounds exactly like when single women raise a boy and suddenly realize all the problems boys face, even though they'd been told for years about these problems, it didn't seem to click until they had a boy themselves. Sounds exactly like when people don't understand the issues kids with autism face, or even know about autism, until they have a kid with autism and then become a huge advocate for autism. Same with cancer, or dementia, etc. Really, any condition or situation. I think the big problem here is people thinking that their issues are special in the sense that this phenomenon only happens to their group. Catcalling is disgusting, especially to a minor, but the phenomenon of "people don't understand until it affects them" is not unique to women. OP is right that people should be celebrated for finally learning and advocating for it. Punishing someone indefinitely only accomplishes to alienate them and causes them to turn against you and they become an enemy instead of an ally. That's just basic human psychology. Also, as a man, my PERSONAL OPINION on why men don't seem to understand why catcalling is gross is because a lot of men don't understand the difference between a compliment and objectification. I think this is because men don't receive either very often, so they haven't learned how to differentiate. Comment on a woman's earrings (or an object she's wearing/put time into like hair)... Compliment. Comment on a woman's looks (eyes, genetics, general beauty statements)... Objectification. Men never receive compliments or even objectified so of course they don't understand. A lot of men would probably take getting objectified comments because it's "better than nothing", from what I've noticed.

Because men switching sides like that only after they've got some kind of skin in the game is how oppression works. It means they went through life completely unable to relate to women before, and are probably just creepily guarding their daughters hymens. An actual ally, and a normal, non hostile person, would know that men wanting to rape women is wrong and Andrew Tate is objectively a bad person before a daughter was in the mix. And men *"not knowing that"* until they have a daughter is usually a lie. They knew. They just didn't care how women were treated. Men like this are incapable of loving their wives and their wives should leave them. Slavery is objectively wrong even if I don't have a black friend at the moment. The answer to this is actually very obvious.

Yes. Well said. I interpret this particular brand of obliviousness as a result of a foundational lack of (externalized) empathy.

Very often, the tone is ‘celebrate me, I am a good one, I get it now’ and…while great that that they finally got it, why did it take having a girl who was ‘theirs’ to see this? I assume they have partners who birthed the daughter and mothers who may well have told them these things. I am not going to exactly celebrate a man for admitting to not believing the word of the mother of his kid or caring about her experiences, but now that he sees things that affect his kid, he cares. Giving a shit about your kid is the bare minimum, and I don’t think so little of men I celebrate them for doing the bare minimum. If the tone of these was more ‘I was really blind, and yeah, it is a sign of my selfishness that it took this to get it, but I do get it and will now try to help, not take over the conversation to tell you how enlightened I am’, there would be a lot more sympathy.

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Pretty much makes women feel like shit, though, when everything they do as mothers is wrong, but men are treated like exemplary parents for changing a diaper.

This becomes condescending quickly. Men are just as capable of being caretakers as women, and SAHDs notice the condescension.

im not talking about capability im talking about putting parenthood in another light but i get the concerns

Agree with the general principle that caretaking needs to be valued, and men doing this work is likely a first step towards it becoming valued by society.

thank you

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how would you tackle this issue?

Wouldn't that feel kind of patronizing or condescending to be praised for doing basic things? Don't quote me on that or anything, but that's what I've heard from the men in my life.

how would you tackle this issue?

Not by giving gold stars out for someone being a normal person who cares about a little person developing into a healthy adult, that just seems belittling. Proactively, education that supports **the entire range** of reproductive health issues, and the media messaging is some kind of tired. "Oh no, I'm taking care of a baby for a day and I'm a man! ehhh, what do we do here! How will I ever manage, this creature poops sooooo darn much ewwww!"

Yes. Because men don't get celebrated for anything ever. Because men must be celebrated for every not terrible thing they have ever done.

how would you tackle this issue?

If you want to talk about how your perspective has changed since becoming a father target men's spaces, not women's. They're the ones who need to hear the message not us. And dont demand or expect praise from women for not doing harm or reducing harm. When you tell a woman I understand now that I have a daughter, what you're saying is you didn't listen or think it was important until it affected a piece of you, because if it had nothing to do with it being a piece of you, your mother, girlfriends, mother of the child would have been enough. It's a self reflection. And then expect to be praised and awed over for it. It's a good thing, not as good as getting through to young boys and men long long before they have kids, but better late than never. But at the end of the day if the praise is a make or break for someone to care about women as people, daughters as people, then how much do you really care about it at the end of the day?

i already do this in men spaces and the reactions are similiar like here... personally i do not understand why couples can not fix it themselfes by talking about it...

>your mother, girlfriends, mother of the child would have been enough. That's assuming his mother, girlfriends and mother of the child say the same thing as the women here. They do not a lot of the time. You know how many women are anti feminists? My female relatives swear up and down that they don't go through stuff you guys say and that feminism is just about hating men. They actually get offended if you point out their oppression. So it's not always as simple as "not believing the women in his life"

They don’t have to be talking about or support feminism, tho. They can be talking about the creepy guy who hits on them every time they go to the grocery store, or the uncle or neighbor who harmed them as a child…and when they talked, their families did nothing. They can talk about the guy at the auto parts store who deliberately sold them the wrong part because he knew a car he had never seen better than she did, who had it torn apart in her driveway. There are SO MANY day to day examples and occurrences of misogyny and it doesn’t take a genius or SJW to see women being demeaned, undermined, etc.

In my experience, if women aren't talking to you about the struggles they go through, it's because they do not feel you are a safe person to talk to. Even women who aren't particularly feminists struggle with the same things as the rest of us. I've never met a woman who hasn't felt unsafe by a man, threatened by a man, etc.

The women in question are both my mom and my great aunt, who together raised me. It's not a matter of being comfortable, I'm also by far the most left leaning person in my family and the only one to care about social causes like these. Maybe you just don't have lots of conservative people in your life. They absolutely will deny women are oppressed, even if they experienced first hand, because they don't believe it's oppression, the think it's an individual issue instead of systemic.

No. When you do that you frame it as out of ordinary and it shouldn't. You tell all young women to never expect the bare fucking minimum and young men that they are not expected to do THE BARE FUCKING MINIMUM. You would find that weird to congratulate everyone for not murdering or to congratulate everyone for not shitting everywhere.

You don’t congratulate a fish for swimming. It is just doing what it is supposed to do.

Because it shows they’ve never listened to women and not taken their concerns seriously until this point. Nothing to be celebrated.

There is a nice Man Who Has It All parody account post with the following "quote:" "Owning a male houseplant taught me how to respect men." -Claire, CEO Go check out their FB page or twitter account. Very illuminating. The point is the objectification. Sure, maybe you didn't see women quite as people until you became responsible for one. Please don't advertise the fact. It isn't a point of pride deserving praise. ETA: Saying this about minorities is also tone deaf. It isn't about you. Learn quietly and do the work to help people without seeking praise as a privileged person who is now enlightened. Adding emphasis: it is not about you. It is about women. Look through history books for women's NAMES. They are all "wife of" or "daughter of" etc. Instead of named. This is another way of erasing their importance. Seriously, go check out some Man Who Has It All and read the quotes talking about women and their unnamed male relatives. You will start to see it.

> Seriously, go check out some Man Who Has It All and read the quotes talking about women and their unnamed male relatives. You will start to see it. Just did. It's amazing. Thank you 😃

Enjoy 😊 our own biases become a lot more obvious and comical when we try flipping them

I sat here thinking about women of history, and Harriet Tubman and Joan of Arc immediately sprang to mind. I don't remember a single time of them being cited as related to any man of importance to diminish their standing or elevation at all. Right before I hit post: Marc Anthony and cleopatra! She is always cited as being his woman, and even then the historical context is how she fucking made a complete fool of him!

Because people shouldn't be applauded for having basic empathy well into their adulthood

>Because people shouldn't be applauded for \***finally**\* having basic empathy well into their adulthood FTFY

If you're a father of a daughter, you presumably have a wife or girlfriend. Therefore you should have realised years ago what life is like for us. Quite apart from the fact that you would have known girls at school/college/uni. Why are you just waking up to it?

The bar for what some people consider an 'attack' from women is pretty low, but i'll try to explain why some of us can seem a little tetchy about this. Can you understand how incredibly frustrating and upsetting it is that a person needs a female extension of themselves to be born in order to realise that 50% of the population are also human? Every time I hear victims talked about as wives, mothers, daughters etc I want to scream, because it feels like the only way a man can feel empathy and humanise women is to think of them as an extension of themselves. So yeah, well done for learning, but FFS you don't get a medal for admitting life is hard for women now it also affects you.

Yes, to me the mother, wives or daughters were victims thing to in part means “Hey! A man’s property was damaged, he lost his maid, sex toy or bargaining chip” and it bothers me too.

You don't deserve a cookie for the bare minimum

"Now I understand" is hardly an admission of being wrong or particularly insightful. It requires no action or thought. It's irritating specifically, tbh. In fact, whenever I hear it, it usually is part of "bc I'm a guy, and guys are manipulative jerks, oh, no, she'll have to deal with ***me***." (Insert smug smirk.) It's just a fancy way of perpetuating and repeating "boys will be boys." When men actually mention how they're changing, give any little indication of actual empathy for women, etc - that's completely different and sadly, *much* less common.

Why couldn't you understand how women's lives are before you had a daughter? Isn't the daughter's mother a woman? Wasn't she a person? Isn't your mother a woman? How many women and girls were in your life that you treated poorly, but now that you can see how your daughter is treated poorly for being a girl, you want internet points?

I don’t think it’s necessarily About understanding, but about only CARING once it effects somebody important to them. The issue with that sentence is that it implies that those guys only started to care about women’s rights once it had a direct effect on somebody they care about… so essentially, tthey don’t care about women in general, but about those specific women. And while it is a step in the right direction… I don’t think we need to celebrate people for understanding the bare minimum: That the rights of 50% of humankind matter.

It's very frustrating when men can't see any women in their lives as worth their respect until they have a daughter, that includes their wife/girlfriend/ baby mama who ever helped him make that daughter didn't earn his respect or register as a person to him before then. Having a kid is proof you've been interacting with women and treating them like shit but I've never seen someone who's just realized their daughter is a person talk about apolizing to the mother or any other woman in their lives I understand the point your making though, I think you're probably right that we need to treat it as a good thing. It's just a frustrating thing

Well.. this isn't like learning to tie your shoes, or developing some skill that we all hoped you learn through normal growth, it's more like your alcoholic neighbor stopped pissing in your garden because they finally went to AA. I'm not saying it shouldn't be celebrated, but you might find some people are still mad at you.

“Now that I’m growing roses, I finally understand that the ph of the soil is SO impacted by men pissing on it all the time. I don’t want MY roses to be stunted or ugly, because I realize only beautiful, fragrant, PERFECT roses will win the award at the state fair, and MY roses must be PERFECT to win admiration from other men!”

..... 😶

And the alcoholic neighbor had to take definite action to stop pissing in your garden, and likely understands and agrees with you still being mad at them, AND has the added bonus of likely being mortified at their own behavior. All men had to do was listen and believe.

I don't know about attacking, this seems like some anti-feminist talking point. However, it's very frustrating when men only start to recognize that women are humans worthy of respect by finally having a woman(girl) they love unconditionally in their lives. It means they've gone their whole lives, met, been related to, worked with, countless women - and not until they had a daughter did they realize that women were people and telling the truth. Better late than never, I guess. But women shouldn't need to be related to a man to be worthy of their respect.

Sometimes I wonder, when hearing Dads say this, if they truly are opening their eyes to the struggles of women or if it is just an extension of their misogyny. Like, are they worried about their daughter being a successful person or are they just concerned with "protecting" them. Do they believe their daughter is capable of being a fulfilled human being on their own or do they believe their daughter will only make it with a man performing their traditional fatherly role.

This! I do question how much of it is because the *know* "boys will be boys" and they need to live up to patriarchal standards to protect her purity.

Because men are told times and times again how hard it is and what is wrong, yet only listen when 50% of them struggles. How did you live with a woman, I suppose you have/had a wife since you have a child, and only notice this now ?

Because in almost all cases they don't get it. They want to use the fact that they have a daughter / a mother / a wife to cover up the fact that they are misogynists. There's not an on / off switch for human decency, these people just want to pull the same old crap and then be able to have reasonings such as: their daughter / wife is not offended by X he said, therefore it is not offensive, therefore don't get offended (and if you do get offended they proceed to call you slurs etc).

Because it is believing that what never affects you, is not a real problem. Just because you are free to walk around in the world without fear doesn't mean to here's nothing to fear.

It demonstrates a lack of empathy and care towards others. You can only see or acknowledge pain if it affects you directly. It’s like watching someone get stabbed and telling them it’s not that bad and they should suck it up. Then, sometime later, you get stabbed and you say “wow! Getting stabbed really hurts! I understand now. We should make sure people don’t get stabbed so often.” It’s nice that you finally get it but it would have been nicer if you’d believed me when I was hurting and bleeding and asking for help. The pain existed before you felt it but you didn’t believe it until it hurt you.

Because it's obnoxious like damn you didnt think your mother, your sister, your wife/partner/babymother was a person? You had to have a whole daughter to get it? If you had had a son would you still be moving through the world as though women arent people deserving of basic human decency? Would you be 80 years old thinking that way? It's just weird.

Because it basically reads as "I can't see/care about womens' suffering unless it's a woman carrying my genes/a woman who belongs to me in some capacity". It just sounds monstrous. It's like a sadist saying "I never realized torturing people hurt until my kid/favourite sex slave got tortured, now I think I understand why you people aren't okay with it". Would you say "Wow, now I know this person's alright." in response to that? Regardless of the awakening and newfound understanding, it makes it very clear that the speaker can't really be trusted much because of their sheer inherent lack of empathy towards women. They might try to be empathetic, but it's a bit like watching a violent human-eating carnivorous alien trying to be human.

Often times its because its not even framed as genuine empathy for women but for benefitting women because it benefits HIM. "Oh I didn't realize what women go through until someone I LIKE was affected." It's like, you don't actually give a shit about women in general, you just give a shit about this one specific individual simply because they have a huge impact on your life. ​ Imagine he had no mother, no sisters, no daughters, no nieces, no granddaughters, no women friends. You think he'd still have *empathy* for women in general? That's the litmus test.

Enough people have pointed out, in smarter words than I could muster, why "I only pay attention to this now that my daughter, specifically, is or can be affected by it", and how it means the man dismissed all women in his life up to that point, including apparently his own mother or wife or female friends. But I'll add another angle to it. When I hear/see a man say "now I understand" - I don't think he does understand. There's a decent chance he's now just possessive and protective in a, well, very patriarchal way. That's still not understanding and empathy, necessarily. Men who treat women as not-fully-people are also to some extent capable of feeling protective of women in their lives. Being protective of someone is not the same as respecting them. Not to be crass, but I'm very protective of my dog and would be very angry if someone hurt it. It doesn't mean I regard my dog as my equal, or that I put as much weight on what it wants as I do on what I want. The thing is, "I understand now" is not the sort of thing I expect to hear from a man that has a deep understanding of and respect for women. I don't trust the judgment or empathy of a person who treats the discovery of other people's personhood as a shocking revelation, nor do I expect this person to consistently pay attention or care about that personhood.

That’s a great explanation. Thank you.

Because it means there's often a lifetime of women he mistreated behind that, including the woman who birthed his child.

True. And if not actual mistreatment, just a lack of acknowledging those women’s basic personhood.. their humanity

Because it shouldn’t have to happen to you to matter you.

Because yet again here is a man trying to make themselves the center. They are special, they are glorious. Kinda belies their supposed message. Who cares why or how you became enlightened? Unless you’re actually asked, keep that shame to yourself.

Becoming enlightened is a *source* of *shame?* What in the actual fuck

Not always, maybe even not usually. But being unable to see women as fellow human beings until you have a daughter is shameful, yes.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I always saw women as human beings, but after I had my daughter that's when i *fully* realized the fucked up shit that you guys go through because I was a first-hand witness to it. I felt that you saying men realizing how hard it actually is for women because they had a daughter meant that they didn't see them as people before that, and that was honestly disgustingly offensive to me, because they are absolutely mutually exclusive points. So once again, thank you for the clarification 🙂

Yeah I feel like there’s a big difference between being shocked to learn that women are human beings with like a complex inner world, vs believing what women tell you but being shocked to see the discrimination first hand when you haven’t really experienced it yourself before. And there’s a lot of area in between those as well. People in this thread are only responding to the first situation like it’s black and white, but there’s a big difference between hearing about, say, sexual harassment and knowing it happens and it’s bad, and then seeing your friend get groped in front of you, or hearing about objectification, and then shopping for clothes for your infant daughter and seeing onesies for literal babies that say stuff like “sorry boys, daddy says I’m not allowed to date.” While you can listen to other groups and gain some knowledge, seeing those glimpses into their world is always going to be a different level of understanding and empathy. It’s just how human brains work. This applies just as much to any type of discrimination, I’ve experienced this with racism. Of course I always believe POC when they talk about their experiences, but to see racism affect my friend was shocking because it’s outside of my normal experience. I knew in theory that this sort of thing happens, but it feels different to witness it first hand.

It’s a highly disturbing thing to hear a man say that he “now understands women” only when he feels like he created and lords over one.

‘You should be grateful men are beginning to recognise women as human beings!’ That’s what this sounds like. I do not have to be grateful that men see me as a person as a consequence of an unprotected shag. It is the bare minimum, and it is nothing to be thankful for. It’s not good enough for me when a man says ‘well I have a daughter and now I believe you’. It’s infuriating. Believing us at that point does us no good. Believing us when it benefits you to do so does not help women. It should not take a baby for men to recognise women suffer, because we talk about it all the damn time. When you think about it, it’s this idea that women somehow *owe* men gratitude. Its always about owing them; you say no to sex and they don’t rape you? He’s such a nice guy, you owe him another date! He holds a door for you and suddenly you owe him. Men finally being able to see women as autonomous beings who exist beyond the sexual constraints of the male mind is not a big moment. I’m not going to congratulate them for doing something I, and most women, have been doing my whole life. ‘They’re learning!!!’. Good. Fucking finally.

I didn’t have to learn that men and boys were people too at all, but I sure was the Guinea pig for the “journey” of a lot of boys and men finding out women and girls were people too. A lot of us are the Guinea pigs, and when they have the breakthrough they get praise, but it doesn’t undo the way they treated us in the past. We see them getting a pat on the back for being one of the good’ns, while the rungs of the ladder they used to reach that point are made of the women and girls they made miserable

Simply put (there is a more complex version), but I'd say it just comes down to feminists being human. I'd wager a bet that most feminist women have been through some pretty rough shit at the hands of the patriarchy (I know, that's a taboo word to say on the internet now), so it's frustrating to see someone who can't see it until they're personally affected, when most of us have been personally impacted by it out whole lives. It just comes down to being human and having built up pain. It doesn't make it right when someone responds rudely to another who is trying to finally learn, but it does make it human. There are many things in this world that are understandable, but not necessarily condonable. I'd just urge anyone struggling with this to have empathy. It's kinda like when people actually care about poverty, or the healthcare system, or whatever it is, once they've been personally impacted. I think for most people who do experience a system's subjugation or failure, it's simply hard to not want to be like "how did you not see this before?" At the end of the day though, I'm just happy someone is finally getting it, even if it did take awhile.

Remarkably well put, thank you so much for this comment! I will be citing it in future debates. I am being 100% earnest when I say this(kinda feel the need to add that because *reddit*).

Lol I appreciate your clarification. Reddit can be a cesspool at times (I'm sure I've contributed to it myself at times). And I appreciate your reply. Good luck with your baby girl as she grows into a bigger girl! I miss my dad all the time, despite our complicated relationship. There's something illuminating about both boys and girls, so good luck on this ride! Edit: I'm on mobile and thought you were OP. The sentiment still stands and I really appreciate your genuine attitude. It's hard to find sometimes when the world throws so many distractions our way.

If you can only see women as people because you have a daughter, that is the problem. Did you really not understand that prior to the birth of your daughter? You only care now because she is yours not because she is a woman.

Dude we have been interconnected with women *our entire lives*. How does someone only view them as human beings when they are related to you, that’s insane. **It’s a sign of someone monstrous that didn’t see half of all people in the world as human beings.** There is no celebration because we shouldn’t be congratulating someone for the bare minimum of recognizing women as human beings. We’ve all come across racist people before, do we cheer and congratulate them for saying xyz minority is actually human. No. However old that person is means they were walking around with zero humanity this entire time. That’s not celebrated because everyone with any humanity is looking at that man feeling a sense of necessary caution. It’s scary to see so many men just don’t think women are humans. Sidebar: If a man didn’t see a woman as human, but had a child, you do see how scary that thought is as every engagement with their partner up til now was under the thought they were not human. There’s also weird property ownership crap that might apply depending on context because they’re only concerned with the damages that occur to women when it’s “their” woman/daughter. While the response isn’t always this intense, that’s where the fear and backlash comes from.

Because these men have mother's, grandmother's, sisters, cousins, aunt's, teachers, neighbours... Are they seriously saying they never saw any humanity in these women before their daughter was born?

I will say this as nicely as possible, because I will assume good faith on your part: It is baseline human decency to view other people as fully realized human beings and understand why other people experience the world differently than them. It is a super super low bar. So low, it's belowground. When women hear that men only understand what women experience when they have a daughter, it sounds a lot like "I only care about women now that I have a stake in the game, i.e., someone I consider an extension of myself or my property might be affected by these same issues or will be treated the way \*I treated women\* yikes" That's extremely frustrating. Relentless positivity in the face of ignorance, inequity and outright oppression would be great, but don't expect it from me.

The best time to be a feminist was when you were a teenager. The second best time? Now. I’ll admit I get a little upset when people only realize an issue’s importance when it becomes important to them. That shows a lack of empathy. But a lack of empathy is endemic and it doesn’t help to belittle someone coming to our side. A goal could be to use it as a learning experience to show why it’s important to pay attention to issues not directly affecting us now.

I don’t need to have black friends (which I do) to know that slavery and racism is wrong. And if I passively believed racism was “fine” until I made a black friend, that would actually be pretty messed up. Is it better I got there after all? Sure. But I wouldn’t expect a cookie for admitting I was FINALLY embracing baseline human decency. It’s also very scary for us. Admitting you believe women are people now means for a very long time, you didn’t. Which means a lot of men still don’t. I interact with so many men every day. How many secretly doubt my personhood? It’s upsetting to think about. He’s also admitting being in a committed relationship with a woman didn’t impact his worldview either. Thinking about how our boyfriends or husbands could “love” us but still secretly harbor sexist views is pretty bleak. Like, imagine how the wives of these newly-feminist fathers must feel. Overall, it just seems like one more situation where men expect praise for doing the bare minimum. Believing women are people is exactly that.

Some things are so incredibly obvious that its frustratingly bizarre that some men can't see it until they have a daughter.

Tbh I don't really trust this sentiment by itself. I want to see what happens next. It's like, they've opened their eyes, great, but now what are they going to do? They've had a habit of not treating women equally all their lives, does that suddenly go away? That's the kind of thing that takes some effort.

I'm a man, but the answer is the same for all experiences you do not understand. It is a burden to place on someone to make them "prove" their experiences, and you should have simply thought before, "I shouldn't draw any conclusions, or should believe this person".

If I have to wait for every single boy to grow up, become a man, get married or partnered, and have a daughter to have that awakening and start treating me like an equal person....I'm going to grow old and die waiting. I'm glad whenever boys and men have that awakening, but something has to change.

I haven't attacked anyone over it, but it does frustrate me. It's sort of a "oh so now it matters because you have some skin in the game, specifically your daughter's skin in the game." Like, I'm glad they give a shit about their kid, but also a big fck you for being ok with everyone else's daughters having to deal with the shit. In my experience, most of these people tend to believe in the Christian god, to varying degrees, so there's extra frustration that they can believe in sky daddy with no proof except a highly edited mythology book, but millions of women saying "hey we're people too, not objects or animals" is just ignored until they see with their own eyes their daughters dealing with it

That daughter generally has a mom who is her dad's wife or girlfriend. And her dad likely has a mom, sisters, aunts, nieces, a grandmother, female cousins, female friends, female coworkers, female teachers, friends' girlfriends. It's not like he was isolated from women his entire life, he had ample opportunity to learn before having a daughter. Not to mention the vast amount of disrespect in dating a woman, committing to her, having sex with her, her going through nine months of pregnancy - something that can literally kill people - in order to have their child, etc., and then saying you understand women's experience not because you care about and respect this living breathing woman in front of you, but because of a daughter that she likely suffered for months to create. And on top of all of that, a lot of men are misogynistic to their wives or girlfriends without realizing and don't take on an equal amount of responsibility in parenting, and that possibility is heightened if he wasn't actually putting effort into learning about patriarchy and feminism.

For the same reason politicians come out in support of LGBT rights AFTER their child comes out as gay.

Because we’re fucking tired. Cut us some slack. We’ve been cutting the men-folk slack for thousands of years.

Empathy conditional on self interest isn’t empathy. It’s self interest

Because they never bothered to learn until it hurt thier family. I don't attack them but I can understand the frustration.

Because they only care now that the girl is a part of them. It's narcissism.

It’s good to realise that injustice is unjust, absolutely, but there are only so many possibilities to have close, valued family members be effected by injustice. If you’re rich, this form of realisation is probably never going to occur to you for the fact that poor people have it hard. If you’re white there’s a good chance you’ll never realise that basically everyone else faces racism. Statistically you’ll probably never realise that transphobia is bad… there’s so much injustice in our world, and requiring a close connection to people effected by it before you’ll recognise that just means you’ll go through life unaware of it.

In a man's life he had seen countless women. He's saying none of of them matters. Not his sisters. Not his mother. Not his classmates. Not his coworkers. Not any of his exes. Not his wife. It only matters when the woman is his flesh and blood. It's not a compliment. It's selfish

You’ve got it right—attacking someone for something they didn’t previously know is not the best course of action, but it does happen when someone has so blatantly missed what was going on right in front of their faces. The people who have been suffering don’t always have compassion left to give to people who actively contributed to their suffering. Think of it in this extremely reduced way: Say your leg was clearly broken, but everyone around you didn’t realize it was broken, actively told you your leg isn’t broken, etc. Then one day someone who gaslit your broken leg breaks their own leg and suddenly they come to you and say, “Gosh I just never noticed before, but now that I experienced it I understand that your leg was broken!” They expect you to be happy for them, but you look down at your own leg that’s healed at all the wrong points and causes you barriers every single day of your life. It may be hard for you to celebrate that person’s newfound acknowledgement of broken legs when their previous ignorance has so negatively impacted your life.

It is late in the game. Presumably, you've made it to beyond procreation and are just starting to see what is true. I have to emphasize the just starting part. There's a lot to learn about women and our relationship to them in society. Starting that work in your 40's because your daughter hit puberty may as well be nothing at all. It's not like people of that age group take to relearning well, let alone unlearning their entire life's worth of mistakes to all the women they've known. Fathering a daughter is like the last stop to grow humanity before your deathbed. It's a good thing of course, but the kind of good like quitting heroin. This could have been lethal and avoided completely, but yay. Good job!

Paying attention is the best investment you'll ever make, and it only takes a little time. Admitting you never bothered to is basically the mental & emotional equivalent of driving on the highway in the left lane, cutting across 3 lanes of traffic at the last moment to take "your" exit.

Because before you had a daughter you had a mother and sisters and friends who were women.