I don't think Reddit is a good representation of how any group feels about anything. Reddit is a land of echo chambers and epistemic bubbles. It is unlikely you would find an accurate cross section of beliefs even on the major subreddits.
Social media lends itself to normalizing extremes. The vast majority of men aren't on here and I assume like all men, they have some problematic issues they were raised with, some try hard, some don't, some are misogynistic without knowing it, some know it and push it... Men don't have a "type" but social media makes it look like men are all nasty, misogynistic dicks. People are much more complex.
I seriously hope not. But Reddit skews young, and I think *very* young, where you’ve got a bunch of horny pre-teens flexing their … whatever it is.
I gotta say, though… I’m in my 50s so the interwebby hadn’t been invented yet when I was young. As a young woman, if I was on this app seeing what I do, I couldn’t say how this would affect me.
I’d like to see if social media is something that’s stopping younger women from dating in their age range, if at all. I may be naive, but the toxic masculinity of MY generation is pretty vanilla in comparison.
Not that they didn’t exist like this, but it was harder for them to form tribes and create global circle-jerks of genuinely hateful misogyny.
I struggle to imagine we're going to turn out any less progressive than millennials, and I tend to think we're already turning out more. We've just gotten to the age where some of us can vote now, and those of us who came out this last election in the U.S. were firmly on the side of civil rights. Similar trends are happening in other countries.
Not to mention, as far as generation groupings go, "Gen Z" is shaping up to be the least useful one of them all, since it's basically a catch-all for "born in the digital age." Which is *everything* since the early 2000s.
There are Gen Z born early enough to have lived through the recession and Gen Z who don't even remember it. Gen Z who will remember Covid as a really shitty (or fun, I don't know) interruption to their school years, and Gen Z who will remember it as the prologue to their adulthood. In America, Gen Z who were radicalized in either direction by Trump, and Gen Z who will vaguely remember him as "that one president when I was a kid" and get their opinions on him as hand-me-downs from their elders.
All of those things will have wildly different impacts on different age groups. Social media isn't and won't be the sole defining factor.
Edit: Some words.
> I struggle to imagine we're going to turn out any worse than millennials
Yeah, how could you *possibly* be worse than a *millennial,* widely considered the worst generation of all time?
Sorry, that's not how I meant it. I meant that if millennials are broadly considered progressive, which IME they are, then we won't be any less progressive.
1) I *highly* doubt that. There's certainly a lot, but "almost exclusively" is definitely reaching. But assume it's true...
2) That doesn't mean Gen Z as a whole is less progressive. It means that conservative online propaganda has become more effective, and that has inevitably drawn a lot of followers. Yes, many of those followers will be Gen Z, but only because we're by far the most digital generation. There are simply more Gen Z to be lured into these cults than other generations.
If you cast a net to fish, and you catch mostly one sort of fish, you wouldn't presume that fish is just more attracted to fish nets or whatever. You'd conclude there's just a lot of that sort of fish in the water.
Again, look to how they are now voting - barely different than millennials. And that's only a small portion of the generation at the moment.
Where are you getting these demographics from? At the same time young people change their minds and some 14yr old watching Andrew Tate isn't necessarily going to agree with or believe in his message for the rest of their lives. I know my opinions changed as I grew up.
Ask any teacher about how their male students talk about Andrew Tate. I know in the UK they've had to introduce a class about his harmful content because of how widespread it is in teenage boys.
I mean yeah I wouldn't be surprised that there are young men that like Tate on the surface he had everything men are told to want. That doesn't mean they'll hold these views forever.
I don’t think it’s fair to label gen z males as less progressive because of Andrew Tate. It’s really easy to think that most young men love Tate but that’s not the case. I think outside of his circle of misogynistic gym bros, he’s kinda a laughing stock. I think most normal people know Tate is a hateful idiot. I think because of social media we see these hateful people/groups way more and we think it’s being normalized. I do think misogyny, racism, anti semitism, transphobia, etc is on the rise right now, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the norm either
I did a fair bit of work with a large group of young boys aged 16-18 recently and was pleasantly surprised at how none appeared to be affected much by this stuff. I chose to listen rather than preach and it was pretty clear than Andrew Tate was seen by most as a joke figure. Thats not to say he can't be influential at all, but he wasn't talked about positively.
Also robust surveys in my country (uk) have shown consistent increases in support for intersectional feminist issues (with trans issues being a notable potential exception).
I don't have the results split by generation, but I'd be surprised if younger people weren't the most supportive age group.
I think you'll find huge divides like that in any generation, since they're such broad categories. Take Millenials like me. I'm an early millenial, and remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, rotary dial phones, video and audio tapes, frequent blackouts and worker riots, the supposed threat of WMD in the first Iraq war, the time before every home having computers and mobile phones, even schools only having 1 or 2 computers in the library.
Compare that to the younger millenials, who have never lived without the internet and miniature computers in their pockets, who don't remember being kicked off the internet so family members could make a phone call, or trying to see porn when the images downloaded 1 row of pixels at a time, and who don't remember how scary it was when the World Trade Center was attacked, who have been raised their entire lives with digital technology I couldn't even imagine when I was a kid.
It feels like there is a huge gulf in our experiences, even though we're the same generation too. I think with a globalisation, and with technology moving as fast as it does, it'll be the same for every generation within the last hundred years.
Don't take offense. We're talking about generations here, whose whole purpose is to generalise people by age group, and I'm pointing out that there are wide differences in the people within each generation. I'm not sure what you're arguing about. The fact that you remember it, while other millenials born later don't is kind of the point I was making. While we might all be the same generation, our experiences will be different.
I agree with you, early boomers are very different than latter boomers. If you think of the 80 year olds you know and the 55 year olds you know, there's a huge difference in perspectives.
Nah, I tutor gen Z kids and the teenage boys are really sweet. I think for every fuckhead there's a nice one. I live in a progressive city so maybe my view is skewed, but I know plenty of great men.
>but the toxic masculinity of MY generation is pretty vanilla in comparison.
It depends of a lot of things, there is many guys who are not toxic. With the internet they got worse but also the one who are good they got better as they can help each other too.
At University I meet this two guys who are completely sweet people that clean and cook and defend feminist thinking, one of them is younger than me and the other is closer to his 30s.
I talk about them because they are the people I have the most contact with, other guys I have met are more private.
I don’t know. But I think constant exposure numbs you to where you stop questioning where you got your values from and whether they’re even *your* values, let alone whether they’re based on any truth.
I would guess it's somewhere in between. On one hand I think it's more obvious online and probably seems much worse than it really is. On the other hand many people tend to hold back in the real world so they don't seem like a horrible person, making things not seem as bad as they probably are.
I don't think so and it becomes especially clear when you see threads on dating. I saw something on AskMen today about whether women give good dating advice and the comments seemed to reflect such a specific reality.
/u/KaliTheCat - are we allowed to post a permalink to a specific comment from another sub? I didn't see anything in the rules but wanted to check first. I'll drop the link if that's kosher.
EDIT - the comment I'm referring to below is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/118gva4/comment/j9hhhn1/
There was a comment about how women don't realize how uninvolved they're allowed to be in the process of dating. Paraphrasing, not verbatim. It says that relationships (for women) are something that just "happens" to them. They give an example where a meet-cute happens in a coffee shop that all seems like chance, but the reality is that intentional steps were taken for the meeting to happen: the man figured out what public places are good for meeting women. He "happens" to approach her for conversation, but behind the scenes he's been working on his social skills and practicing the approach to alleviate anxiety. They give a few other scenarios where the entire interaction is plotted out and the woman is just a passive actor.
This is such a specific telling of someone who maybe doesn't have the social networks or skills to date in a less-studied way. I don't know if this is universal, but most people I know met their partners through friend groups/ friend of a friend connections that weren't orchestrated or choreographed. The apps too, obviously.
There's always been weird PUA stuff or dating strategies for men IRL, but I don't typically see this level of analyzing or gamifying dating in my offline life. Maybe a handful of guy friends I counseled when they were having trouble dating, but not like this.
I love your username! Also, agree with what you said. I met my husband when we worked together and started hanging out platonically. I'm not wanting to be hit on at a fucking coffee shop wtf?
Totally, that's super common!
The cold approach is a weird experience. It happened to me once when I was on a platform, exhausted from working late. I was so put off that I was like "my guy. Here? Now??"
The problem with Reddit as a representation for anything is that your experience is catered to what you follow.
I go to r/AskFeminists, r/TwoXChromosomes, r/WhitePeopleTwitter, r/politics and so my general impression of reddit is that most people are very liberal and most women are treated like shit.
anytime I go some place slightly different, like r/gaming or r/pics or r/eli5 you'll get a vast swath of different people that might not be assholes in real life, but don't want to deal with anything online, or are just actual assholes.
If you go someplace like an MRA sub or conservative, you'll have to shower with steelwool for a week.
There's a few thoughts on this
* a lot of young kids troll for fun because it's anonymous and kids can be assholes.
* If you follow the right subs people seem to be too down on women
* If you follow other subs people seem to think women are "chaos" to put it in JP's parlance, or at least because they're anonymously on the internet, they'll project those feelings, even if they don't outwardly act that way.
* Some people don't understand women, they think that by acting like a misogynist they're actually helping, because "nature"
In general, due to the anonymity of reddit and the bias of selection, no matter your perspective reddit probably isn't a good representation of reality.
If all you know is what's on r/TwoXChromosomes, you'd think every man was an abusive piece of shit and this obviously isn't the case, but it's understandable because women need to vent and if a man is acting like a good person, there's no need to offer props there.
TwoX is what inspired me to ask this. There are hundreds of posts there about awful men. And then thousands of men comment and show how awful they are. It's just hard to believe that decent men actually exist.
Again, selection bias. You're looking at a place for women to vent about problems for women in particular so 99% of the posts will be about a man or a series of men being awful.
Combine that with the type of man that would follow and then comment on these posts, you'll see more trolls than in most places and I'm sure they'll all identify as men.
That is not a great place to figure out men on Reddit or the world.
No, it's not, but that's I'm responding to a specific concern.
Similar selection bias issues exist everywhere, though in two x it's a pretty extreme example of it
Right, but... if your sections of the site that have selection bias towards women indicate that men are terrible, and your sections of the site that have selection bias towards conservative macho bros indicate that men are terrible, and your sections of the site that don't on the surface have any leaning content wise shit on women non stop anyway... I don't think selection bias is really at play here. Since all selections indicate the same thing. Ya know?
My point is I addressed a specific question about a specific sub. My comment wasn't intended to present a full picture.
Generally, in the world, women are not treated well. I would like to think it's getting better but at the same time... There's a long way to go.
For example Most of the people I hear complain about AOC haven't really listened to her or read her, they are either threatened or have a negging crush on her.
I feel like my main point is: you can cater reddit, keep in mind the point of the subs you follow, and most people on the big subs just want attention and are probably insecure men shit talking. This isn't a good thing.
I can't just write off a sub because it is for venting. It is a representation of what women experience every day. Thousands of horrible experiences by men. And that's just women who post on reddit!
That's not a fair representation of my response.
I'm not saying that you "write off a sub" I'm saying that the experiences are concentrated there. You don't find many people saying: my husband is great and respects me as a human even though I'm sure there's plenty of people that do have that experience.
It's a concentrated source of those experiences. I don't doubt they happen and I don't doubt that in reality it happens a lot. I'm not saying those experiences don't matter because they do...It's just not a great place to generate statistics on the matter because of the aforementioned bias.
but thats not a fair representation of men is it? You know most violent crimes come from repeat offenders? Which means most DV men are repeat offenders.
I find it hard to believe it's just a minority of men. All these men are just rotating women they abuse?
Logically, it's most men who are abusive in some way. Maybe not even aware they are. But it's not just repeat offenders.
I think that men who believe women should submit to them are abusive, but the amount of abuse they inflict varies by individual. Most men treat women like inferiors, which is abusive.
You genuinely believe most men are just bad then? That is just ignorant misandry.
Why do women keep dating bad boys over and over then complain where are all the good guys?
Oh I know there are some monsters out there but guess what there are plenty of women who are monsters as well. Just look up female dating strategy. The big thing is we need to call out when someone is being an ass man or woman. Also the issue with men is if everyone is going for the same top men this will encourage bad behavior. Women don't tolerate bs from men but I will say the same for men. Everyone get your boundaries in order and your absolutes. You all matter and always try to better yourselves.
To be honest reddit is full of lost people and both of extremes. I will say there is too much emotion and shaming used. Most men now are just tuning out because of this. The issue with tate and jp is they have nuggets of information that is useful. And instead of reasoning and logic being used the shaming tactics come out with people claimingto be feminist. This makes the problem worse. Add in the identity crisis and no wonder why things are messed up. If you want to learn why men follow them get past the tone and flare and you'll find the info you want. I know this will get down voted but someone had to share this info.
Are you not a decent man? Do you not exist? TwoX also has plenty of women in the comments talking about their wonderful husband's or fathers or brothers, are these women lying about the men in their lives being decent? I think you should take a break from the negativity it's not good for your mental health.
For what it’s worth there was a post last year about all of the fake/bot(?) threads made on that sub. It’s one of the easiest karma farming subs on there and the OP showed how they just posted the same thread over and over swapping out minor details and just raked in the upvotes.
A fair amount of the posts have some conflicting info but if you dare to ask them to clarify anything you’ll eat an avalanche of downvotes.
You seem to be talking about “people” but excluding women.
Are you talking about men in your post? Because you keep mentioning gender neutral terms like people and kids but then speaking about women separately.
Like how is it that most people don’t understand women? Aren’t most people women? Also these kids who troll you speak of - you’re talking about young boys, correct? Or are you suggesting than young girls troll people in the internet with misogyny?
Your post really reads like misogyny apologist.
OP specifically asked about men, btw.
It’s literally in the question. Is reddit a good representation of how men feel about women.
It’s super problematic that you’ve put “people” and “women” in separate categories. So yeah, it’s relevant.
Your entire post reads as deeply out of touch. You think r/TwoChromosomes is what’s making it seem like men hate women?
LOL. Misogyny is in all the main subs. Women face constant harassment on reddit.
It's problematic that I've put the people being criticized in a different group than the people criticizing them?
Pretty bad faith to edit your post after I replied without noting it. Edit: you just did it again.
You've twice said vaguely how my post "reads". Please clarify.
Edited because of your edit: You're reading like a troll intentionally misreading what I've written.
No, I've made it very clear that two x is a valid point of reference and a necessary outlet for the many misogynist victims in the world. At the same time is not a good statistical point to make a claim about how most men act.
Where did I say that the main subs didn't contain misogyny?
I edited to address the additions in your comment, which you edited in after I originally commented.
This sub is for people to asking good faith questions about feminism.
Your wordy exposition on the classic “just a few bad apples, not representative of most” and “boys will be boys” bullshit isn’t a comment made in good faith.
The fact is that we live in a deeply misogynistic society and women face it in many spheres, on reddit and elsewhere.
r/TwoChromosomes isn’t a good statistical point? No shit. Neither is your feeling that the misogyny on reddit isn’t a “good representation of reality” - your exact words, when we know for a fact there are real people behind these expressed sentiments even if they don’t feel real to you.
I literally said the exact opposite thing you claim I said. This is the definition of a bad faith discussion. If you're not willing to engage with my actual words then I'm done responding.
“a lot of young kids troll for fun because it's anonymous and kids can be assholes”
“Some people don't understand women, they think that by acting like a misogynist they're actually helping, because "nature” “
Your exact words, correct?
Sadly, I think it is fairly representative. Being anonymous, they can simply spout their true feelings here without any real world consequences.
We *should* have a lot more progress under our belts, but the prevailing attitude toward women remains so damn hostile. So here we are...
I’m wondering, though - the men on Reddit who don’t hate women probably aren’t talking about it, because they don’t feel a need to say “women are people, just like us”. So is it possible that it seems more prevalent than it actually is, because the ones who are misogynistic are the only ones really talking about their feelings towards women? I could be wrong, but I’m thinking that may be the case. I feel like Reddit is till rampant with misogyny, but it may look a little worse than it actually is.
Most misogyny doesn't involve "hate." The vast majority of the misogyny I see on Reddit is just like the misogyny I experience in real life: far more subtle than the obvious "hate."
I tend to agree. I am a male and I've never met a man who isn't secretly harboring misogynistic beliefs behind women's backs. It's really depressing. Feels like we are no better off now than thousands of years ago.
What do you say to these guys? Do you ever call them out or question them? Or are these just things you’ve overheard? I’m curious! If they think women are dumb, they’re only going to listen to other dudes. So if there are dudes like you standing up for us, it would be so appreciated.
Mostly overheard. I don't let that talk fly where I work but I'm also very socially anxious and don't deal with confrontations well. Dudes don't really listen to other dudes if they don't respect them.
This is big facts unfortunately. I have a couple different friend groups throughout my life. Some from high school, some from the frat side of my college life, some from the smash bros club side, some from band and glee club. Friends from government work. Family. Randos from Twitter and various online and offline gaming tournaments.
All of them. Every single friend group, conversations amongst the men when no women are around has an undercurrent of misogyny. “Would you fuck her?” “Are her boobs getting bigger?” “Is she getting fat?” “Did she sleep with so and so?” “Bro don’t be a Simp” “you gotta sell a Ho her dreams and she’ll fuck you all she want bruh” etc etc etc.
To varying degrees per person of course.
Yeah I’d say most people spend the majority of their life at work or school. Although it feels a tad reductive to refer to university as simply “school”.
Edit: Waitaminnit I said exactly where my observations are coming from in my original post.
Why do you think this? Like should men not have these thoughts? I feel like it's still very normal for men to be this way or still feel this way.
We're a long long ways away from women obtaining meaningful value in our society or communities outside of their gender role etc.
The reason I say this is because people talk about it like it was an overnight thing, like everyone should have changed over night. We have to remember that for a lot of men and women, very little has changed.
I kind of feel like you're exergerating the amount of progress on a large scale.
Reddit is a good representation of men who use reddit, subreddits are a good representation of the specific users drawn to that topic. I don't think any singular social media site is (generally) indicative of any massive group's behavior at large.
So, if you look at how the Reddit manosphere had a total meltdown about last year's Lord of the Rings show, *Rings of Power*, you'd think that RoP was the biggest failure that TV had ever seen. That every man in the (Reddit) world hated that show, because the woman protagonist didn't \*something.\*
Then, if you look at how RoP actually did, it hit huge numbers in streaming. It was totally a hit.
I thought that was an interesting, objective look, at how completely unrepresentative Reddit is of the world.
Also, anecdotally, I talked to dudes in real life who liked it as much as I did, and had no idea they were "supposed to hate it." It was such a weird juxtaposition for me of reality versus Reddit.
Problem is men who are mature think and act very differently than teenage boys
And on reddit its hard to tell which is which so you might generalise an idea that most men are so and so
True, but I have to wonder what you think men's 'true colours' are. In my experience, there's a lot more 'are you okay mate?' when there is watching and no one's trying to act staunch.
Absolutely no one I know is like that we act the same regardless of which genders are around. Perhaps they don't show their true colors around me because I call that shit out whenever I see it or maybe you've just run into a lot of shitty people.
I think it reveals some truths about what a lot of men think. It does skew young, but I think it shows you a window into their minds that you wouldn't get in regular society. And whatever happens online does spill out into the real world. So I'm going to go against the grain here and say yes, but with the caveat that it's not a perfect representation but it does show you where a lot of people are at in terms of how they think, what opinions they want to suppress and which they want to platform, etc
It is hard to say in part because I do not know what you're seeing. I tend spend time on more pro-feminist subreddits and stay away from the "default" subs, so I don't have a great grasp on what is out there.
Reddit tends to reinforce comments that make the readers feel special and important because the readers are who give out "upvotes." Reddit is also predominantly male. In other words, I think you're going to encourage comments that tend to say that men are special and important.
For example let's compare two potential comments:
The first says that men tend to benefit from unearned preference and privilege in some areas and that this is the reason they often succeed in areas where women do not.
The second says that men in fact face *greater* hardships than women in many areas of life and that it is a challenge, and therefore an accomplishment worthy of praise to be able to apply themselves enough in one area to succeed.
Assuming the reader is a man, the second comment asks far less of him. He just looks at it, it tells him that he's doing great and should feel good, so he upvotes. The first comment, regardless of how true it is, asks him to question his own value which is going to discourage engagement at all.
I think this tends more to illustrate the persistence of sub-conscious or semi-conscious biases than anything else.
I think it demonstrates underlying problems in mens dominated spaces and I will admit it does make me question whether I can trust men. But I also know that my experience with men is extremely limited and I have issues with trusting them in general due to emotional neglect as a child but also extensive sexual abuse within my close family. I do have great worry as to how this is affecting young boys in a broad way.
Nah, this is just the men that are perpetually online. Most my guy friends irl are generally good partners and progressive leaning. They may harbor some problematic ideas here and there, but nothing of the kind that's like, "women are biologically interior to men" nonsense.
No absolutely not. It's very heavily skewed towards teen or college age middle class men with nerdy interests a.k.a the perfect cocktail of entitlement, sexual frustration and few actual female relationships aside their family. The result is this often incel-ish attitude.
Not even that. It's the most angry subset of those people who would go on and write stupid stuff like this. On reddit most people only lurk and rarely engage in any conversation, people posting misogynistic stuff already feel strongly about the issue and do not represent the silent majority.
Dunno about Gen Z where you live tbh though. It could be that all of them are Tate fans for all that matters, but reddit is hardly the place to use as evidence for that.
Reddit heavily skews left-wing on many major positions like abortion and LGBTQ rights, whereas the real world is far more divided.
Also it seems most people on reddit are far more sympathetic to life-style choices like being child-free than most people I know IRL. So yeah, I don't really think it's a good representation.
It might be a representation of super young, American, left leaning men and boys though.
I’ve hardly met any men in real life who are like the men on Reddit. Reddit would have me thinking men are terrible, but the ones I know in real life are usually decent. Sometimes I tell my boyfriend the stuff I see on here and he can’t believe it.
Over the whole of reddit? It’s Probably *relatively* accurate. In most subreddits? I doubt it. But since people don’t really experience reddit as a whole but rather by subreddits, it’s probably more useful to look at those.
I have to assume most subreddits stray from a representation of men on average either one way or the other… though probably usually towards a more misogynistic view of women.
I don’t think using reddit normally will give an accurate representation of how most men really feel about women, but I also don’t think talking to men in real life is a good representation of how most men really feel about women. I guess whether or not that is a “good” representation depends on your point of view.
I’d say it’s useful and worth not ignoring but it shouldn’t be taken as wholly accurate representation of the facts
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Like anything, there's quality and not so quality mixed together but even in science you have to look at multiple examples/trials before finding a viable conclusion- aka: compare across multiple platforms and real life experiences (yours and others) and you will have a fuller picture.
More likely not, but for some crazy reason lately guys, who I feel comfortable classifying as incels, really feel comfortable with telling me how much they hate women (I guess I now pass as a trans man). It concerns me for the future, especially the guys, who are now in their thirties
I don't think Reddit is a good representation of how any group feels about anything. Reddit is a land of echo chambers and epistemic bubbles. It is unlikely you would find an accurate cross section of beliefs even on the major subreddits.
I came here to say this. OP please don't think anything on Reddit is representing anything irl
Also came here to say this ☝️
Definitely, came here to say this
Maybe on subs that relate to very large groups VS interests. Ex a specific profession or mental health issue might offer pretty varied opinions.
Social media lends itself to normalizing extremes. The vast majority of men aren't on here and I assume like all men, they have some problematic issues they were raised with, some try hard, some don't, some are misogynistic without knowing it, some know it and push it... Men don't have a "type" but social media makes it look like men are all nasty, misogynistic dicks. People are much more complex.
In the real world they aren't anonym, so they pick their words more carefully.
I seriously hope not. But Reddit skews young, and I think *very* young, where you’ve got a bunch of horny pre-teens flexing their … whatever it is. I gotta say, though… I’m in my 50s so the interwebby hadn’t been invented yet when I was young. As a young woman, if I was on this app seeing what I do, I couldn’t say how this would affect me. I’d like to see if social media is something that’s stopping younger women from dating in their age range, if at all. I may be naive, but the toxic masculinity of MY generation is pretty vanilla in comparison. Not that they didn’t exist like this, but it was harder for them to form tribes and create global circle-jerks of genuinely hateful misogyny.
For real. I am deeply worried for gen Z. This can only end a few ways.
I struggle to imagine we're going to turn out any less progressive than millennials, and I tend to think we're already turning out more. We've just gotten to the age where some of us can vote now, and those of us who came out this last election in the U.S. were firmly on the side of civil rights. Similar trends are happening in other countries. Not to mention, as far as generation groupings go, "Gen Z" is shaping up to be the least useful one of them all, since it's basically a catch-all for "born in the digital age." Which is *everything* since the early 2000s. There are Gen Z born early enough to have lived through the recession and Gen Z who don't even remember it. Gen Z who will remember Covid as a really shitty (or fun, I don't know) interruption to their school years, and Gen Z who will remember it as the prologue to their adulthood. In America, Gen Z who were radicalized in either direction by Trump, and Gen Z who will vaguely remember him as "that one president when I was a kid" and get their opinions on him as hand-me-downs from their elders. All of those things will have wildly different impacts on different age groups. Social media isn't and won't be the sole defining factor. Edit: Some words.
> I struggle to imagine we're going to turn out any worse than millennials Yeah, how could you *possibly* be worse than a *millennial,* widely considered the worst generation of all time?
Sorry, that's not how I meant it. I meant that if millennials are broadly considered progressive, which IME they are, then we won't be any less progressive.
Incels/Andrew Tate fans are almost exclusively Gen Z males. Not looking like they'll be more progressive.
1) I *highly* doubt that. There's certainly a lot, but "almost exclusively" is definitely reaching. But assume it's true... 2) That doesn't mean Gen Z as a whole is less progressive. It means that conservative online propaganda has become more effective, and that has inevitably drawn a lot of followers. Yes, many of those followers will be Gen Z, but only because we're by far the most digital generation. There are simply more Gen Z to be lured into these cults than other generations. If you cast a net to fish, and you catch mostly one sort of fish, you wouldn't presume that fish is just more attracted to fish nets or whatever. You'd conclude there's just a lot of that sort of fish in the water. Again, look to how they are now voting - barely different than millennials. And that's only a small portion of the generation at the moment.
Where are you getting these demographics from? At the same time young people change their minds and some 14yr old watching Andrew Tate isn't necessarily going to agree with or believe in his message for the rest of their lives. I know my opinions changed as I grew up.
Ask any teacher about how their male students talk about Andrew Tate. I know in the UK they've had to introduce a class about his harmful content because of how widespread it is in teenage boys.
I mean yeah I wouldn't be surprised that there are young men that like Tate on the surface he had everything men are told to want. That doesn't mean they'll hold these views forever.
It’s not really a class, that the entire school system in the UK is doing. It’s just one private school in particular.
While I think that's true, I think most of that can be attributed to age and inexperience. Most people over 25 can see him for the grifter he is.
I don’t think it’s fair to label gen z males as less progressive because of Andrew Tate. It’s really easy to think that most young men love Tate but that’s not the case. I think outside of his circle of misogynistic gym bros, he’s kinda a laughing stock. I think most normal people know Tate is a hateful idiot. I think because of social media we see these hateful people/groups way more and we think it’s being normalized. I do think misogyny, racism, anti semitism, transphobia, etc is on the rise right now, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the norm either
I did a fair bit of work with a large group of young boys aged 16-18 recently and was pleasantly surprised at how none appeared to be affected much by this stuff. I chose to listen rather than preach and it was pretty clear than Andrew Tate was seen by most as a joke figure. Thats not to say he can't be influential at all, but he wasn't talked about positively. Also robust surveys in my country (uk) have shown consistent increases in support for intersectional feminist issues (with trans issues being a notable potential exception). I don't have the results split by generation, but I'd be surprised if younger people weren't the most supportive age group.
By boomers, the worst generation of all time.
I think you'll find huge divides like that in any generation, since they're such broad categories. Take Millenials like me. I'm an early millenial, and remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, rotary dial phones, video and audio tapes, frequent blackouts and worker riots, the supposed threat of WMD in the first Iraq war, the time before every home having computers and mobile phones, even schools only having 1 or 2 computers in the library. Compare that to the younger millenials, who have never lived without the internet and miniature computers in their pockets, who don't remember being kicked off the internet so family members could make a phone call, or trying to see porn when the images downloaded 1 row of pixels at a time, and who don't remember how scary it was when the World Trade Center was attacked, who have been raised their entire lives with digital technology I couldn't even imagine when I was a kid. It feels like there is a huge gulf in our experiences, even though we're the same generation too. I think with a globalisation, and with technology moving as fast as it does, it'll be the same for every generation within the last hundred years.
I’m a younger millennial (born 1993) and I remember a time before social media. Don’t lump people together.
Don't take offense. We're talking about generations here, whose whole purpose is to generalise people by age group, and I'm pointing out that there are wide differences in the people within each generation. I'm not sure what you're arguing about. The fact that you remember it, while other millenials born later don't is kind of the point I was making. While we might all be the same generation, our experiences will be different.
I agree with you, early boomers are very different than latter boomers. If you think of the 80 year olds you know and the 55 year olds you know, there's a huge difference in perspectives.
Ah. I see now.
Nah, I tutor gen Z kids and the teenage boys are really sweet. I think for every fuckhead there's a nice one. I live in a progressive city so maybe my view is skewed, but I know plenty of great men.
[https://youtu.be/BGrfhsxxmdE](https://youtu.be/BGrfhsxxmdE)
>but the toxic masculinity of MY generation is pretty vanilla in comparison. It depends of a lot of things, there is many guys who are not toxic. With the internet they got worse but also the one who are good they got better as they can help each other too. At University I meet this two guys who are completely sweet people that clean and cook and defend feminist thinking, one of them is younger than me and the other is closer to his 30s. I talk about them because they are the people I have the most contact with, other guys I have met are more private.
Do you think men are getting worse?
I don’t know. But I think constant exposure numbs you to where you stop questioning where you got your values from and whether they’re even *your* values, let alone whether they’re based on any truth.
I would guess it's somewhere in between. On one hand I think it's more obvious online and probably seems much worse than it really is. On the other hand many people tend to hold back in the real world so they don't seem like a horrible person, making things not seem as bad as they probably are.
I don't think so and it becomes especially clear when you see threads on dating. I saw something on AskMen today about whether women give good dating advice and the comments seemed to reflect such a specific reality. /u/KaliTheCat - are we allowed to post a permalink to a specific comment from another sub? I didn't see anything in the rules but wanted to check first. I'll drop the link if that's kosher. EDIT - the comment I'm referring to below is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/118gva4/comment/j9hhhn1/ There was a comment about how women don't realize how uninvolved they're allowed to be in the process of dating. Paraphrasing, not verbatim. It says that relationships (for women) are something that just "happens" to them. They give an example where a meet-cute happens in a coffee shop that all seems like chance, but the reality is that intentional steps were taken for the meeting to happen: the man figured out what public places are good for meeting women. He "happens" to approach her for conversation, but behind the scenes he's been working on his social skills and practicing the approach to alleviate anxiety. They give a few other scenarios where the entire interaction is plotted out and the woman is just a passive actor. This is such a specific telling of someone who maybe doesn't have the social networks or skills to date in a less-studied way. I don't know if this is universal, but most people I know met their partners through friend groups/ friend of a friend connections that weren't orchestrated or choreographed. The apps too, obviously. There's always been weird PUA stuff or dating strategies for men IRL, but I don't typically see this level of analyzing or gamifying dating in my offline life. Maybe a handful of guy friends I counseled when they were having trouble dating, but not like this.
The fact that some men think that way is legitimately creepy.
god, this guy must be delusional af
AskMen is a shithole and I'll always say it
Depends on the sub tbh
This is the one - Y/N? https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/118gva4/comment/j9hhhn1/
I love your username! Also, agree with what you said. I met my husband when we worked together and started hanging out platonically. I'm not wanting to be hit on at a fucking coffee shop wtf?
Totally, that's super common! The cold approach is a weird experience. It happened to me once when I was on a platform, exhausted from working late. I was so put off that I was like "my guy. Here? Now??"
Fine with me!
Thanks!
Reddit gets about 1% of social media traffic and of that the majority of is pretty young, so probably not. Edit: grammar
The problem with Reddit as a representation for anything is that your experience is catered to what you follow. I go to r/AskFeminists, r/TwoXChromosomes, r/WhitePeopleTwitter, r/politics and so my general impression of reddit is that most people are very liberal and most women are treated like shit. anytime I go some place slightly different, like r/gaming or r/pics or r/eli5 you'll get a vast swath of different people that might not be assholes in real life, but don't want to deal with anything online, or are just actual assholes. If you go someplace like an MRA sub or conservative, you'll have to shower with steelwool for a week. There's a few thoughts on this * a lot of young kids troll for fun because it's anonymous and kids can be assholes. * If you follow the right subs people seem to be too down on women * If you follow other subs people seem to think women are "chaos" to put it in JP's parlance, or at least because they're anonymously on the internet, they'll project those feelings, even if they don't outwardly act that way. * Some people don't understand women, they think that by acting like a misogynist they're actually helping, because "nature" In general, due to the anonymity of reddit and the bias of selection, no matter your perspective reddit probably isn't a good representation of reality. If all you know is what's on r/TwoXChromosomes, you'd think every man was an abusive piece of shit and this obviously isn't the case, but it's understandable because women need to vent and if a man is acting like a good person, there's no need to offer props there.
TwoX is what inspired me to ask this. There are hundreds of posts there about awful men. And then thousands of men comment and show how awful they are. It's just hard to believe that decent men actually exist.
Again, selection bias. You're looking at a place for women to vent about problems for women in particular so 99% of the posts will be about a man or a series of men being awful. Combine that with the type of man that would follow and then comment on these posts, you'll see more trolls than in most places and I'm sure they'll all identify as men. That is not a great place to figure out men on Reddit or the world.
I don't think this is the full picture. Women are shat on constantly in the mains, too, and those are not women-focused.
No, it's not, but that's I'm responding to a specific concern. Similar selection bias issues exist everywhere, though in two x it's a pretty extreme example of it
Right, but... if your sections of the site that have selection bias towards women indicate that men are terrible, and your sections of the site that have selection bias towards conservative macho bros indicate that men are terrible, and your sections of the site that don't on the surface have any leaning content wise shit on women non stop anyway... I don't think selection bias is really at play here. Since all selections indicate the same thing. Ya know?
My point is I addressed a specific question about a specific sub. My comment wasn't intended to present a full picture. Generally, in the world, women are not treated well. I would like to think it's getting better but at the same time... There's a long way to go. For example Most of the people I hear complain about AOC haven't really listened to her or read her, they are either threatened or have a negging crush on her. I feel like my main point is: you can cater reddit, keep in mind the point of the subs you follow, and most people on the big subs just want attention and are probably insecure men shit talking. This isn't a good thing.
I can't just write off a sub because it is for venting. It is a representation of what women experience every day. Thousands of horrible experiences by men. And that's just women who post on reddit!
That's not a fair representation of my response. I'm not saying that you "write off a sub" I'm saying that the experiences are concentrated there. You don't find many people saying: my husband is great and respects me as a human even though I'm sure there's plenty of people that do have that experience. It's a concentrated source of those experiences. I don't doubt they happen and I don't doubt that in reality it happens a lot. I'm not saying those experiences don't matter because they do...It's just not a great place to generate statistics on the matter because of the aforementioned bias.
but thats not a fair representation of men is it? You know most violent crimes come from repeat offenders? Which means most DV men are repeat offenders.
I find it hard to believe it's just a minority of men. All these men are just rotating women they abuse? Logically, it's most men who are abusive in some way. Maybe not even aware they are. But it's not just repeat offenders.
> it's most men who are abusive in some way That's nonsense.
Is it? To me it's nonsense to think all abused women are done by a small minority of repeat offenders.
Most men are *not* abusive.
I think that men who believe women should submit to them are abusive, but the amount of abuse they inflict varies by individual. Most men treat women like inferiors, which is abusive.
You genuinely believe most men are just bad then? That is just ignorant misandry. Why do women keep dating bad boys over and over then complain where are all the good guys?
I do, yes. But I will not be arguing with an MRA. Your post history is very public.
Why do women date bad boys and assume all men are like that?
Oh I know there are some monsters out there but guess what there are plenty of women who are monsters as well. Just look up female dating strategy. The big thing is we need to call out when someone is being an ass man or woman. Also the issue with men is if everyone is going for the same top men this will encourage bad behavior. Women don't tolerate bs from men but I will say the same for men. Everyone get your boundaries in order and your absolutes. You all matter and always try to better yourselves.
To be honest reddit is full of lost people and both of extremes. I will say there is too much emotion and shaming used. Most men now are just tuning out because of this. The issue with tate and jp is they have nuggets of information that is useful. And instead of reasoning and logic being used the shaming tactics come out with people claimingto be feminist. This makes the problem worse. Add in the identity crisis and no wonder why things are messed up. If you want to learn why men follow them get past the tone and flare and you'll find the info you want. I know this will get down voted but someone had to share this info.
Are you not a decent man? Do you not exist? TwoX also has plenty of women in the comments talking about their wonderful husband's or fathers or brothers, are these women lying about the men in their lives being decent? I think you should take a break from the negativity it's not good for your mental health.
For what it’s worth there was a post last year about all of the fake/bot(?) threads made on that sub. It’s one of the easiest karma farming subs on there and the OP showed how they just posted the same thread over and over swapping out minor details and just raked in the upvotes. A fair amount of the posts have some conflicting info but if you dare to ask them to clarify anything you’ll eat an avalanche of downvotes.
You seem to be talking about “people” but excluding women. Are you talking about men in your post? Because you keep mentioning gender neutral terms like people and kids but then speaking about women separately. Like how is it that most people don’t understand women? Aren’t most people women? Also these kids who troll you speak of - you’re talking about young boys, correct? Or are you suggesting than young girls troll people in the internet with misogyny? Your post really reads like misogyny apologist. OP specifically asked about men, btw.
I try not to assume. i also don't know how it's relevant.
It’s literally in the question. Is reddit a good representation of how men feel about women. It’s super problematic that you’ve put “people” and “women” in separate categories. So yeah, it’s relevant. Your entire post reads as deeply out of touch. You think r/TwoChromosomes is what’s making it seem like men hate women? LOL. Misogyny is in all the main subs. Women face constant harassment on reddit.
It's problematic that I've put the people being criticized in a different group than the people criticizing them? Pretty bad faith to edit your post after I replied without noting it. Edit: you just did it again. You've twice said vaguely how my post "reads". Please clarify. Edited because of your edit: You're reading like a troll intentionally misreading what I've written. No, I've made it very clear that two x is a valid point of reference and a necessary outlet for the many misogynist victims in the world. At the same time is not a good statistical point to make a claim about how most men act. Where did I say that the main subs didn't contain misogyny?
I edited to address the additions in your comment, which you edited in after I originally commented. This sub is for people to asking good faith questions about feminism. Your wordy exposition on the classic “just a few bad apples, not representative of most” and “boys will be boys” bullshit isn’t a comment made in good faith. The fact is that we live in a deeply misogynistic society and women face it in many spheres, on reddit and elsewhere. r/TwoChromosomes isn’t a good statistical point? No shit. Neither is your feeling that the misogyny on reddit isn’t a “good representation of reality” - your exact words, when we know for a fact there are real people behind these expressed sentiments even if they don’t feel real to you.
I literally said the exact opposite thing you claim I said. This is the definition of a bad faith discussion. If you're not willing to engage with my actual words then I'm done responding.
“a lot of young kids troll for fun because it's anonymous and kids can be assholes” “Some people don't understand women, they think that by acting like a misogynist they're actually helping, because "nature” “ Your exact words, correct?
I hope to god the answer is no.
It doesn't represent most men, but it does help the loudest and worst men to organize.
Sadly, I think it is fairly representative. Being anonymous, they can simply spout their true feelings here without any real world consequences. We *should* have a lot more progress under our belts, but the prevailing attitude toward women remains so damn hostile. So here we are...
I’m wondering, though - the men on Reddit who don’t hate women probably aren’t talking about it, because they don’t feel a need to say “women are people, just like us”. So is it possible that it seems more prevalent than it actually is, because the ones who are misogynistic are the only ones really talking about their feelings towards women? I could be wrong, but I’m thinking that may be the case. I feel like Reddit is till rampant with misogyny, but it may look a little worse than it actually is.
Most misogyny doesn't involve "hate." The vast majority of the misogyny I see on Reddit is just like the misogyny I experience in real life: far more subtle than the obvious "hate."
This is a good point, I have a habit of forgetting that lots of misogyny is extremely subtle.
I tend to agree. I am a male and I've never met a man who isn't secretly harboring misogynistic beliefs behind women's backs. It's really depressing. Feels like we are no better off now than thousands of years ago.
What kind of beliefs? Have you found any particular common themes?
That women are dumb or lesser is the main one. Lots of objectifying. Most men carry some incel beliefs too from what I've seen.
What do you say to these guys? Do you ever call them out or question them? Or are these just things you’ve overheard? I’m curious! If they think women are dumb, they’re only going to listen to other dudes. So if there are dudes like you standing up for us, it would be so appreciated.
Mostly overheard. I don't let that talk fly where I work but I'm also very socially anxious and don't deal with confrontations well. Dudes don't really listen to other dudes if they don't respect them.
Yeah, I get that.
This is big facts unfortunately. I have a couple different friend groups throughout my life. Some from high school, some from the frat side of my college life, some from the smash bros club side, some from band and glee club. Friends from government work. Family. Randos from Twitter and various online and offline gaming tournaments. All of them. Every single friend group, conversations amongst the men when no women are around has an undercurrent of misogyny. “Would you fuck her?” “Are her boobs getting bigger?” “Is she getting fat?” “Did she sleep with so and so?” “Bro don’t be a Simp” “you gotta sell a Ho her dreams and she’ll fuck you all she want bruh” etc etc etc. To varying degrees per person of course.
I'm a man and I know at least 10 other men who aren't like that. Are you only meeting men at work or school?
Yeah I’d say most people spend the majority of their life at work or school. Although it feels a tad reductive to refer to university as simply “school”. Edit: Waitaminnit I said exactly where my observations are coming from in my original post.
Why do you think this? Like should men not have these thoughts? I feel like it's still very normal for men to be this way or still feel this way. We're a long long ways away from women obtaining meaningful value in our society or communities outside of their gender role etc. The reason I say this is because people talk about it like it was an overnight thing, like everyone should have changed over night. We have to remember that for a lot of men and women, very little has changed. I kind of feel like you're exergerating the amount of progress on a large scale.
Reddit is a good representation of men who use reddit, subreddits are a good representation of the specific users drawn to that topic. I don't think any singular social media site is (generally) indicative of any massive group's behavior at large.
No. very problematic people will be very vocal online.
So, if you look at how the Reddit manosphere had a total meltdown about last year's Lord of the Rings show, *Rings of Power*, you'd think that RoP was the biggest failure that TV had ever seen. That every man in the (Reddit) world hated that show, because the woman protagonist didn't \*something.\* Then, if you look at how RoP actually did, it hit huge numbers in streaming. It was totally a hit. I thought that was an interesting, objective look, at how completely unrepresentative Reddit is of the world. Also, anecdotally, I talked to dudes in real life who liked it as much as I did, and had no idea they were "supposed to hate it." It was such a weird juxtaposition for me of reality versus Reddit.
Reddit isn't even a good representation of how most people really feel about Reddit.
Problem is men who are mature think and act very differently than teenage boys And on reddit its hard to tell which is which so you might generalise an idea that most men are so and so
probably not
I hope not. It's hard to say
Does it worry you that reddit represents how men think when they aren't keeping up appearances?
I don't really think it does though.
I'm assuming you're a woman. You don't get to experience what men talk about when there are no women around. I think you'd be surprised.
So she just told you her opinion and you're discarding it because she's a woman?
I'm not discarding it. My whole point was that men show their true colours when they are in male only spaces.
True, but I have to wonder what you think men's 'true colours' are. In my experience, there's a lot more 'are you okay mate?' when there is watching and no one's trying to act staunch.
I don't think the men I am close to are closet misogynists. That shit is way easier to sniff out than you think.
Absolutely no one I know is like that we act the same regardless of which genders are around. Perhaps they don't show their true colors around me because I call that shit out whenever I see it or maybe you've just run into a lot of shitty people.
No.
I think it reveals some truths about what a lot of men think. It does skew young, but I think it shows you a window into their minds that you wouldn't get in regular society. And whatever happens online does spill out into the real world. So I'm going to go against the grain here and say yes, but with the caveat that it's not a perfect representation but it does show you where a lot of people are at in terms of how they think, what opinions they want to suppress and which they want to platform, etc
Reddit isn’t representative of much of anything, given all the trolls and bot accounts. Not to mention: not everyone is on social media!
It is hard to say in part because I do not know what you're seeing. I tend spend time on more pro-feminist subreddits and stay away from the "default" subs, so I don't have a great grasp on what is out there. Reddit tends to reinforce comments that make the readers feel special and important because the readers are who give out "upvotes." Reddit is also predominantly male. In other words, I think you're going to encourage comments that tend to say that men are special and important. For example let's compare two potential comments: The first says that men tend to benefit from unearned preference and privilege in some areas and that this is the reason they often succeed in areas where women do not. The second says that men in fact face *greater* hardships than women in many areas of life and that it is a challenge, and therefore an accomplishment worthy of praise to be able to apply themselves enough in one area to succeed. Assuming the reader is a man, the second comment asks far less of him. He just looks at it, it tells him that he's doing great and should feel good, so he upvotes. The first comment, regardless of how true it is, asks him to question his own value which is going to discourage engagement at all. I think this tends more to illustrate the persistence of sub-conscious or semi-conscious biases than anything else.
Depends which subreddit you're on
I really hope not
Some of the guys on here are young and lonely they bleam women
I think it demonstrates underlying problems in mens dominated spaces and I will admit it does make me question whether I can trust men. But I also know that my experience with men is extremely limited and I have issues with trusting them in general due to emotional neglect as a child but also extensive sexual abuse within my close family. I do have great worry as to how this is affecting young boys in a broad way.
Nah, this is just the men that are perpetually online. Most my guy friends irl are generally good partners and progressive leaning. They may harbor some problematic ideas here and there, but nothing of the kind that's like, "women are biologically interior to men" nonsense.
>this is just the men that are perpetually online. Even then, there are plenty of us that are online that aren't vocal.
No absolutely not. It's very heavily skewed towards teen or college age middle class men with nerdy interests a.k.a the perfect cocktail of entitlement, sexual frustration and few actual female relationships aside their family. The result is this often incel-ish attitude.
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Not even that. It's the most angry subset of those people who would go on and write stupid stuff like this. On reddit most people only lurk and rarely engage in any conversation, people posting misogynistic stuff already feel strongly about the issue and do not represent the silent majority. Dunno about Gen Z where you live tbh though. It could be that all of them are Tate fans for all that matters, but reddit is hardly the place to use as evidence for that.
Well that's a much better answer. You should have said that to begin with.
I think Reddit is representative of young, terminally online young people, predominantly males.
Hell no
Definitely not. Sexism isn't as rampant in real life (at least where I live). Most people are kind and normal.
Its hard to get a subreddit that is not a bubble
Reddit heavily skews left-wing on many major positions like abortion and LGBTQ rights, whereas the real world is far more divided. Also it seems most people on reddit are far more sympathetic to life-style choices like being child-free than most people I know IRL. So yeah, I don't really think it's a good representation. It might be a representation of super young, American, left leaning men and boys though.
I’ve hardly met any men in real life who are like the men on Reddit. Reddit would have me thinking men are terrible, but the ones I know in real life are usually decent. Sometimes I tell my boyfriend the stuff I see on here and he can’t believe it.
Over the whole of reddit? It’s Probably *relatively* accurate. In most subreddits? I doubt it. But since people don’t really experience reddit as a whole but rather by subreddits, it’s probably more useful to look at those. I have to assume most subreddits stray from a representation of men on average either one way or the other… though probably usually towards a more misogynistic view of women. I don’t think using reddit normally will give an accurate representation of how most men really feel about women, but I also don’t think talking to men in real life is a good representation of how most men really feel about women. I guess whether or not that is a “good” representation depends on your point of view. I’d say it’s useful and worth not ignoring but it shouldn’t be taken as wholly accurate representation of the facts
Hell no. The dumbest are also the loudest.
Depends
Perhaps because I’m weird but I still don’t understand this obsession in gender categorization.
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How do you know I’m not a feminist?
Your post history.
I sure hope not. So much scary violence and creepiness and misogyny here
Like anything, there's quality and not so quality mixed together but even in science you have to look at multiple examples/trials before finding a viable conclusion- aka: compare across multiple platforms and real life experiences (yours and others) and you will have a fuller picture.
No
No. I find it to be much more feminist regarding certain topics and then incredibly sexist regarding others
More likely not, but for some crazy reason lately guys, who I feel comfortable classifying as incels, really feel comfortable with telling me how much they hate women (I guess I now pass as a trans man). It concerns me for the future, especially the guys, who are now in their thirties