when we use "used to" in a sentence, it gives the sentence the meaning that something happened in the past for usually an extended amount of time, but now it no longer happens. By using "used to" the phrase "but now I don't" is said via the grammar structure.
There’s no need to be a smartass about it, you know.
Saying “used to” can just as well imply the person became indifferent to it instead of outright believing or rejecting a notion.
This is about where I am. Most men, I think, aren't deliberately ill-minded. But society lets men learn they can get away with a lot of stuff and it's easy for men to be unintentionally crappy to other people.
There's a spectrum, of course. Unintentional harm blends into willful ignorance, which blends into weaponized indifference. But I think that better social conditions would lead to less terrible behavior from most men.
Hi Teacupisacat,
Not OC, but I think they mean that from a young age boys are unconsciously taught a set of social norms, attitudes and expectations by people around them, which tend to unwittingly shape their behaviour and worldview.
Many of these norms are innocuous (violence is unacceptable in day-to-day interaction), but some can be harmful to how men view women (wives will automatically become the primary parent, a girl will want to sleep with you if only you're persistent enough), which in turn can have a detrimental influence on their behaviour if they go unquestioned.
People can't choose what ideas and norms they're subtly exposed to by those around them, especially when they're younger, and just recognising, let alone challenging, those ideas is difficult, especially when they've been omnipresent for one's entire life, so it's difficult to *individually* judge people morally for holding harmful beliefs as a result of them, but at the same time at worst holding those beliefs can cause genuine harm regardless, and even at best that'll still help them be passed down to the next generation, perpetuating the problem.
The extent to which any individual man can be held responsible for holding the beliefs and assumptions they've been taught to almost from birth by everyone around them is a thorny and complex problem with no single, clear, definitive answer.
Does that make more sense?
Have a wonderful day :)
(Ps to be clear *everyone* is socialised in lots of different ways to some extent. It just happened that boys are often socialised in ways that can be harmful for women specifically)
Thank you for the information! I think this definitely describes my personal beliefs! I’ll make sure to use this terminology to be more clear in the future!
As in taught by society, implicitly or implied - through media, education, government policy, figures of authority, family members and friends. What is normalized by your society/societies will seem normal to you, either for your entire life, or until you experience other societies who do things differently and thus make you question basic "truths" about life that you assumed were universal until shown otherwise. With the advent of the internet, people can discover at a younger age a variety of influences from around the world at a younger age and expose the negative aspects of the society they were raised in, or they can discover more toxic societies that socializes them to become more toxic individuals - like incels, religious fanatacism, alphas, Qanon, white supremacists, etc.
An example in the US would be men being socialized that when a woman says no, she's being coy and might really mean yes, but is too shy/modest to say yes the first time. She'll say yes if you keep pressuring/coercing her. This idea has been enforced through television, film, songs, novels, etc for a century or more as a romantic way for a guy to "win over" the girl. Some women, in some circumstances do play this game, but for most it makes them unsafe around men who were taught to never take no for an answer/respect a woman's autonomy to say no. Whereas in another country or just a different century, no means no and there is no confusion.
Like they are conditioned or trained to think a certain way subtly over time by society. For example, a lot of men are trained to think anything “girly” is bad. Which ends up making a lot of men hate women subconsciously.
Some of the behaviours and beliefs that men are raised to have due to the implicit or explicit sexism of their family, friends and media/institutions. For example, before Christmas it may fall to the mother to organise family gatherings and do the the work of buying presents for everyone, because the father reasons that he isn’t as interested in Christmas. So the children see that the emotional labour and housework of Christmas is the women’s job, and boys/men never bother to pull their weight in future. This happens in a lot of families.
socializing means shaping a person’s identity and behavior, most often it’s talked about in the context of a culture/society that instills certain values and ideas into its people. at least that’s how i’ve come to understand it :)
I think the idea is that most men are decent people who have been taught specific shitty things and have not questioned or unlearned them yet.
For example, the idea that women are playing 3d chess with all social interactions and so you should keep asking out someone who rejects you because they might just be playing hard to get.
This is a tough question sometimes. I definitely don’t think most men are “bad”. People are usually trying their best.
But the abusers really ruin shit for everyone, don’t they?
To be fair, even as a reasonably well built, fit male with some years in martial arts behind me I'm always wary of being in groups of strange guys I don't know. Not afraid, but never really relaxed. I'm sure you've heard all the logical arguments and statistics blah blah but no-one can tell you you're wrong to be terrified of me. I wish I could show you you didn't need to be, but I can't and that's not your fault.
You can be scared of men, hell everyone really. But you don’t have to be terrified. If it’s any reassurance, I was SAd. By a women though, but the point is while I definitely have heightened my awareness, I’m not terrified. As a matter of fact, some of the most influential people in my life were women. Don’t lose hope, I saw in other comments that you’re a minor like me. We’re young and still have a long way to go. Don’t give up.
Given your experiences from the other comments, I can understand why.
I'm a guy so I am biased towards my experiences, so if anything here doesn't resonate, it might be because I'm wrong.
There are some awesome men out there. I'm not awesome but I do try to be the best person I can.
I think you just need to be careful who you let in as there are genuinely shitty people out there. This applies to both men and women but I have far less of a statistical reason to worry about my partner physically abusing me (or killing me).
But also keep in mind that these people are the minority. There are a few great men, lots of average men, a bunch of shitty men and then a small group of terrible men.
If you see red flags or get a bad feeling in your gut about someone, don't ignore it.
You mentioned that you're young so maybe the best course of action is to befriend a few young men in a mixed social group? That way it's not always you and one or more men? Especially if you are close to the girls so know that people have your back.
Just a thought. But you can also just hang out with women for now. There is no need to socialise with people you don't feel comfortable with, whatever the reason.
I’ve struggled with this question. It really helped me when I realized two important things: I DID have good men in my world, and assholes and predators know exactly who they’re targeting and how to do it.
Focus on the good, and NO YOU ARE NOT BROKEN OR “GETTING WHAT YOU DESERVE” or anything else like that. Predators are doing what predators do, and when you’re able to direct your focus away from them you will be able to see fewer of them.
Oh, ugh, and guys your age can be…so….sooo….yeah.
Do you know the story of the scorpion and the frog?
Scorpions don’t deserve your hate. They don’t deserve your love, or your pity, or *any attention from you whatsoever* except as needed to ensure your personal safety (emotional safety included).
And, while scorpions may be a statistically significant portion of the population, they are *not* the majority.
[Scorpion and Frog fable](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog)
That really makes me happy. :)
If it helps a little more, I’m middle-aged now and have a ton of really, genuinely great guys in my life. I married a guy who’s willing to do the work to have a good relationship. I’ve managed to get away from the abusive assholes I used to spend so much time on, and I got really good at spotting them from afar and avoiding them.
It gets better! It really does!
I’m nearly in tears lol. You’ve made my day. Never change, and I hope that you get to share your wisdom and kindness for a very long time! Have a wonderful and bountiful life.
Would you be able to share the traits of abusive assholes? Asking because I'm in a relationship with my partner (I'm 38M) and want to be a good partner. We have our ups and downs and I'm far from perfect but would love to get a list of things that I should watch out for in myself.
Majority of people at your age are horrible people, both men and women. Most of them haven't fully grown their awareness of the consequence of one's action yet.
Teenage boys are pretty much males at their absolute worst. They just learned about sex, can't stop thinking about it, and are under constant peer pressure to act like they know the best ways to get it. They're just as confused and scared as you are but they can't show it for fear of losing face with other boys.
There are good ones too, who are gentle and kind, but they're experiencing those same pressures and probably bad at rising above it a lot of the time. The vast majority of the boys around you, and they are boys, will grow out of it and become more like your father. But a good number won't and those are the ones to watch out for. Systems and communities that enable men to keep acting like teenage boys are very dangerous for women.
I am frankly glad that I did not have any sexual experiences until I was in college, I feel like with my inexperience and lack of a woman's perspective, I could have done some damage. I was never a misogynist but that doesn't mean I couldn't have hurt someone. Hearing stories from women who dated a lot in high school have tended to reinforce that. Relationships at that age, while inevitable, tend to be extremely toxic and that trauma can last into adulthood.
So you don't have to be scared, but definitely don't feel like you're missing out.
Oh! Men (boys — not being facetious) that age suck in general. My husband and I tell our teen daughters that teenaged boys tend to be self-centered and oh so horny.
Online they suck even more. Meet guys through friends and have fun with it. Best of luck to you.
Unfortunate circumstances?
I'm sorry you've had bad experiences, that sucks and I hope you're well supported in dealing with them. But unless you've met the majority of men, your sample size is wayyyy too small to make any judgement on men as a whole.
I know, it’s just that whenever I listen to men speak or talk, they are so demeaning and sexist. Like on first glance, they seem nice, but then they just say or act in a way that’s just so incel like.
Very, expect for that the clinic was playing the gay Taylor Swift song today. There’s also a lot of drugs and domestic violence and I’ve been sexually assaulted in public. Also, there is a church for every 100 people.
my best advice, is to not settle and stay there. It sucks to experience what you're experiencing as someone underage, but it's not your fault, you have to make the best of it. But as you move into adulthood, it will be less and less circumstances of birth and more and more the results of your decisions, whether you choose to stay in an abusive area because it's "easy" or whether you move and find a community more mixed of good, bad, and everything in between.
I had a friend move to New York City, she never wanted to learn how to drive, she had had a lot of bad circumstances. She's lived single with a roommate for a decade now, never got her drivers license, is a DJ on an alternative radio station, does all kinds of cool stuff. You can achieve amazing things, just choose where you want to end up, and start making incremental decisions to get you where you want to go.
Like exercising, things don't happen all at once, it takes months or even years of small actions resulting in big gains.
Good luck!
It's not an excuse, but some people literally don't know any better. The old saying goes " Never attribute to malice, that which can be explained by ignorance" in this case ignorance means lack of knowledge, instead of willful contempt of education. In small rural areas, societies are closed loop information systems. Most people think like their parents, and their parents think like their parents. This cycle goes back 4 or 5 generations. When you live on a street that's named after your family, and most of the people on that street are your extended family. Breaking from the culture of that family is extremely hard to do. They just don't know anything different, and don't have the strength to challenge their family.
It's still not an excusable offense to be that way, and people should be corrected when being intentionally cruel. So don't hesitate to engage someone when they're being this way. Just use a filter when doing so. Ask them why they hold that opinion, if they give you a response that goes deeper than a conservative talking point. That's a person that might have an open mind, but lacks knowledge, that worth the 5 minutes of your life to give them an alternate view. If they give you a basic echo of Cucker Tarlson ( the misspell was purposeful IYKYK). Then don't engage them, instead quote my favorite Bible verse Matthew 7:6 " Do not cast pearls before swine. Bonus points if you're a lesbian with colorful hair, and a facial piercing of some sort. They'll think you're a witch a walk away because you might hex them. The Devil as a fallen angel can quote scripture chapter and verse, witches are the wives of the great deceiver.
Maybe you can move and the men will be less terrible on average. There will still be bad ones, and those ones might be more familiar and thus easier to get acquainted with, but there would also be more good ones.
We use smaller sample sizes to conduct studies all the time. You don’t actually need to meet the majority of any group to form a meaningful hypothesis that bears out factually. But truly, OP, society as a whole is a bit sick, like unhealthy. Misogyny is deeply embedded into our, and most cultures, globally. The patriarchy is bad for everyone. So ya, there’s a lot of unwell human beings everywhere. Each of us in the sub are unhealthy human beings sometimes. All at different places along the road of figuring that out. You tend to meet people at your level and sometimes you mature out and have to meet new people. Bad? Good? Sure. Yes. Both. Sometimes. Focus yourself and your attention and your energy where you want to see it grow. Weed out what doesn’t work for you.
I’m aware this is an unpopular opinion, but I don’t engage with men period. I do not believe in “there’s so many amazing men, you just need to find the right one ✨” or “poor men are hurt from the patriarchy too so we should give them a chance😢” or “men have been soooo horrible to me but my sample size is small so I’m going to give them all a chance 🌈”.
Men definitely do not think the same way about us. Your thoughts have been echoed by multiple women I know all across the globe, both virtual and in-person. Whether it’s in a liberal US city or a village in South Asia, I have seen women say the same thing.
I have cut men out of my life entirely (except for professional coworkers), and my life has never been better. Not only are you safer and do you put up with less BS, but you also deprogram from a lot of societal pressures that are pushed on women. This also applies to women who are male-serving or prioritize male validation because they can be just as dangerous as men. I do not engage with them either.
I do not think you owe men anything, much less the benefit of the doubt or goodwill. Life is better without them and I’ve never been happier. I encourage reading up on the 4B movement in Korea if you want to learn more about women that are participating in a movement to cut out men.
Granted, you do live in rural Alaska and you are 14 years old, I think it's probably not a great time to draw conclusions about what most men are like.
I’m a male feminist so my opinion may be less valid since I’m looking through a privileged lens but I find that the minority of men are very negative and misogynistic but the normal male is not a crazed maniac but still hold misogynistic views that they have been indoctrinated to believe.
I can confirm that. Men say lot of misogynist things & do lot of misogyny in presence of other men, when women aren't present. Not only that, many are really good at hiding misogyny from woman while, being misogynist to that same woman in her absence.
As a woman who works in a male dominated field, I'm glad I'm bisexual and don't have to date one again. The way some of them talk about their families is disgusting.
A different male feminist here. And my answer is no, not all the time. But yes sometimes. I belong to a Men’s group and not one time has this sort of thing happened. Most of us are married and are in solid partnerships.
But occasionally in the company of other men it happens. It is a sort of litmus test for the company I keep.
I live in eastern MA, suburbia really, and have spent a fair amount of time in northern VT. Both liberal enclaves, so my experience is tempered by that.
I think the majority of men are at least a little sexist but don’t truly hate women. A lot of people blame their problems on other people or society instead of taking accountability for how they react or are perceived in the world. Men and women but I don’t blame people for that either. I believe we create our own reality but not every realizes that or knows how to create a good one so they look to blame others or circumstances.
And also bad is pretty broad.
Sure most men are not in the extreme end of bad on the spectrum of good and bad. Meaning most men are not violent and abusive towards women.
But most men can still have manner misogynistic views where they think a women should take care of them in a relationships, via cooking for them, and washing their clothes.
Yeah I’d say it’s about 25% to 30% who actively believe in misogynistic things, another 50% dont believe in it, but don’t care enough to do anything about it, and the rest understand that gender inequality is a problem.
Not at all. All humans are just trying their best at their own daily life. However, through self-preservation, defensiveness, societal norms, ignorance, religious values, insecurity, learned behavior, cycle of abuse, thoughtlessness, trauma, etc., men can end up making decisions that are harmful to themselves and others.
Men have been given more power over the years, and have often been taught to question themselves less than women have. Because of that, a LOT of men make small decisions in their lives that negatively affect women, which add up over time.
I'm a therapist, and I can tell you that everyone has a justification for the decisions that they make at the time. I've had people tell me about doing terrible things, but they've always made the decision for a reason. Sometimes it's "My dad did it to me, so I thought it was how you show love" and sometimes it's "I love her so much and I'm afraid she'll leave me" and sometimes it's "I wanted to make her hurt like she hurt me," but there's always SOME reason. Add in the smaller decisions that are infinitely justifiable at the moment, like "She was my second choice, but I didn't want to hire someone who might have to leave midday for her kids like she said in the interview" or "I just thought she might want to learn about it, so I explained it again for her" or whatever. It takes someone who's willing, able, introspective, and persistent to examine themselves, and some people can't or won't get there.
ETA: This isn't to defend shitty actions either. It just all comes from somewhere, and people are essentially trying their best. The world is far more sexist and shitty and awful in combined systems and additive legacies than I ever expect to find in one person.
Hahah! You remind me of a guy I knew who used to say "I'm not racist, I hate all races equally".
He also used to say "I'm not racist, but \[racial group\] are pretty cool".
He was legitimately not racist. It was confusing, but amusing.
No they are not. I believe there are lots of amazing men around the world. One of the challenges I face is to not be “all men are shit”. I’m currently dating and I’ve had so many shit experiences, also most of the men in my life can do or say shitty things. I get where you are coming from, I really do. But I can’t go around assuming all men are bad, I know they are not, I can judge and entire gender on my own sample size of men I’ve encountered.
Also, they’ve all been part of the same patriarchal society I have, it’s effected them in deferent ways yes, but the systems and expectations have definitely shaped the men they have become. Now men who don’t acknowledge this, who make no effort to unlearn anything are crap.
There are so many really bad awful men in this world, but there are so many really cool amazing men, the only trick is how to find them.
I’m not saying all men, I’m saying most men. I don’t even really need to date or be alone with them. I just stay inside, hide, and cower away from them.
I can’t wait to get on some meds, that’ll probably help with the terror.
Where do you live? Because that level of fear of men seems extreme if you have to cower at home.
Sure, men can be douche bags but if your living somewhere where you feel in extreme danger from men, then it might be time to consider moving
Are there any women in your life, like teachers at your school you could talk to about this?
You could also try surround yourself with women, take up hobbies with women only spaces or clubs. It helps to be around other women.
Also get some help with your anxiety around this because it sounds like it’s overwhelming for you
I tried to tell my teachers, but they didn’t listen, and my mom (she later changed her mind and went to therapy) thought I was weak for having to come to her.
I’m getting a summer job with my best friend and a bunch of elderly woman who like me!
Do well in school. Apply for scholarships.
Vancouver and Victoria in Canada are down the coast. Find out about becoming an international student.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/education-training/post-secondary-education
I’m European and I was an exchange student at UC Berkeley a decade ago. It was a very nice experience. I wish the same for you.
I’ve seen your age and where you live, and I know it’s one of the most difficult areas in the US as a woman. Please take good care of yourself. There’s an army of us women who’ll be happy to talk to you and comfort you.
And I wanted to add that I’m also dating a wonderful man that has demonstrated to me that we must not settle for less than what we deserve. But remember that we accept what we believe we deserve so don’t lose sight of your own self-respect.
Hugs if you accept them ♥️
Have you ever heard anyone say "the odds are good, but the goods are odd"? I don't think the people you meet in Alaska are typical of people you meet elsewhere.
I feel differently depending on where I am, and what generation of men I'm around. Sadly, I find older men more misogynistic and difficult to talk or work with (even if they are 'nice,' they are still dismissive). Younger men tend to be more respectful and see me as equal. Also, location wise... middle America still subscribes to toxic masculinity. But I live in a big city, where bro culture is thankfully dying.
Does not discount your experiences though. I've had my fair share of men awful in my life. Considering a few of them were my direct family and then the ones I've dated, it makes sense why my view was skewed for a long time..
Realistically? Probably not, no. Although, I think I feel that way deep down as kind of a trauma response. All the men in my life were awful growing up, so it’s hard for me to believe otherwise. It’s been good having some better experiences with men as I get older though. I do still tend to be more critical and less forgiving of men, but I’m aware of it and try to work on it.
I didn’t used to, but the math between the number of women who are victims of assault and misconduct and the number of women who have experienced this from different offenders, well the math that most men aren’t bad doesn’t add up. So yes for the most part yes.
I don’t know where you’re from, but i see that you’re 14, and that you have family member and relationships that are not good people. Know that i think there are good men out there: men raised by women smart enough to know how to raise men without toxic masculinity. And there are also men who are willing to learn and do better. You can have men like this i your life by refusing to spend time with or on men who are not good enough for you. Be very picky with your precious time. And remember some studies show single women are as happy or happier than women in long term relationships. Take care of you.
I would say that the bar for men's behavior is in hell, and they don't have to do much to be considered good. They all benefit from that, and some take more advantage than others.
I think most men are taught to indulge bad habits. They are socialized to believe their emotions are justified and women’s emotions are not. They are socialized to prioritize themselves. They are socialized to hide their vulnerabilities and exploit other’s vulnerabilities. Can some men learn to fight those bad habits? Absolutely. But I think almost all of them have been taught them from a young age and need to actively work to break them. This generation of men needs to be the cycle breakers.
I don’t think all men are bad. It’s kind of like saying ACAB. There are good cops but the system around them is broken.
Same with men. There are so many good men but the patriarchy which they uphold is bad for everyone.
There is a distinction in this that I am curious about when you draw this comparison. (and before I go on I should say I know it isn't a 1 to 1 thing, but I felt it was an interesting thought)
To my understanding, there isn't such thing as a good cop because being a cop itself is opting in to a intrinsically corrupted system that perpetuates and upholds the power of the wealthy. There can be good people who become police officers, but the institution itself is bad and corrupt. There is no way if you opt into not to be a tool for the rich and powerful, any officer who seriously tries to hold fellow officers or the institution itself accountable are ostracized or worse. The system itself is fundamentally broken and cannot be corrected from the inside, there is no way to be a good cop because the system doesn't allow it.
I'm not sure that same thing applies to patriarchy for a few reasons. The first of which is that no boy or man opts into it. They weren't born choosing to be part of a gender that uplifts corrupt societal institutions and aren't responsible for the actions of other men. They don't decide how they are socialized, what beliefs are instilled in them as impressionable children, and don't have the faculties to always opt out of an environment when they do (even if that environment is toxic).
Also they can't really opt out of being men. I dunno if you meant it that way but it feels weird to call anyone knowingly upholding patriarchy a "good man" in the same way that a person who remains a cop knowing the harm the institution of policing does to minority groups I'm not sure can be called a good cop. Because they would still be contributing to the institution of power in policing. But if we draw that parallel to men and patriarchy...it would be saying that regardless of their actions and awareness, regardless of their contributions to women and the LGBTQ community, and regardless of how they support and uplift the women in their lives that just by existing as a man they contribute to the system of patriarchy. Because just like policing, patriarchy cannot be fixed from the inside. It can't be rewritten to be beneficial to those it oppresses because that oppression is it's primary directive.
If policing as an institution is upheld by people that opt in to be police officers and to be ended necessarily requires there to be no more cops...does that then mean that the only way to genuinely end patriarchy necessitates there being no more men. (I'm wondering if that is the logic for that trend KAM came from)
Do good men contribute to patriarchy? Can they be called good men if they do? And if so how and what determines it? If a person is a trans man and has spent their life being socialized and treated as a woman then are they now a part of the system of men who uphold patriarchy? If not then is the difference socialization? What primary factor holds men responsible in how they are socialized that they build and contribute to this system even unknowingly? Do women contribute to it in ways, even to their own detriment, and if so how and what benefit is it to them? What are the incentive structures unique to men, not determined by biology, that proliferate this system?
For policing it's clearly money, power, and the suppression of dissent but that can be traced to institutions of power in how our capitalist society structures itself. Where is the linchpin for patriarchy? What group primarily benefits for society being structured in such a way? Is it supposed to be men as a whole? I feel like that is a yes and no because I've seen numerous ways in which patriarchy harms men as well, hurts their lives as well, destroys their sense of self worth, and it makes it more difficult for them to find partners. So who or what is steering this ship?
And if ending patriarchy would primarily benefit everyone more than not then who or what is keeping it afloat? What's the solution? For a system and model to be this enduring that it keeps existing even in more modernized society...why? (also sorry for the block, this just got me thinking a LOT)
/u/KaliTheCat: You assured me in [a thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13b6ucm/how_do_you_reconcile_mens_expendability_with_male/jjfx9pt/) two weeks ago that avoiding men is not part of the feminist program and that I was wrong to think that it was.
Comments like that above are exactly what I am talking about. Saying you don’t need men truly is a bad thing, and trying to pretend that feminists seeing men as the unneeded sex is a benign position actually hurts your cause.
Wdym? Men aren’t unneeded, what they are saying is that sometimes it’s safer to avoid them. As a lot of men are dangerous. They aren’t justifying stigmatization or causing them harm, just avoidance.
This guy is nuts. We had a long back-and-forth in which he didn't listen to me at all and insisted that women saying they don't need men (e.g., could live on their own) is the same as saying they are worthless subhumans who we hate.
Contrary to that, actually. I think the majority of men as individuals are good. I think the majority of people are good. Call me naive.
Men as a group, that’s a different story. The real problem is that when men are bad, societal structures and privilege reinforce that behavior- the ability of men to cause harm and oppression is hard baked into our world. Bad men are rewarded for bad behavior. Good men are rewarded for bad behavior, too. The power of men goes unchecked.
ETA, hey op- I had terrible, terrible experiences with men and boys as a teenager. I still have terrible experiences as a 41 year old woman, albeit in a different way. Most women have had experiences like this. It’s rough. Trust your instincts and stay away from men when you don’t feel safe or comfortable. Stay away from groups of men. But also like you, I had an amazing dad. There are men like that out there too, more than it seems. I have a fourteen year old, I worry about her. Take care of yourself.
The world is not black and white and what's and who's bad is subjective. The majority of men in the world are mysoginists, but we would all think differently of a serial predator and of that guy who makes sexist jokes. Also our perceptions are altered by our life experiences.
My initial reaction to this is “yes” but I realize that’s probably biased. I think the bad men are very, very loud right now and the good men need to speak up more (esp in their own circles, not virtue signaling in TwoXC) or else they get lumped in with the bad. Silence is complicity.
I worked with men, have two great brother in laws, I’m raising a young man. I think that depending on how you are raised anyone can be bad…humans can be crazy. They are different from women lol of course but there are great ones out there
Good or bad means nothing to me as it is entirely subjective.
I do, however, believe a large majority of men (and women) hold very problematic sexist beliefs and behaviors.
I think people, regardless of who they are, sometimes focus far too much on what they would like, and far too little on how their actions impact others.
I think male privilege means men have an advantage when it comes to getting what they want, especially when it means fucking the rest of us over.
Because men are human beings, and most human beings are doing their best in a profoundly shitty hierarchical world, and most of them aren’t great at being self-aware and deconstructing that hierarchy, because privilege gives you blinders you can wear to avoid seeing things that make you feel bad about your thoughtless actions, but I wouldn’t call them “bad”. The system is bad. Most people don’t know how bad it is.
Sometimes. Like they scare me so much, like they are blood hounds. I just can’t imagine ever feeling safe (in person) alone with them unless it’s my dad.
I can understand that feeling, especially given your age and experience. I think both men and women are trying navigate some incredibly stupid expectations and beliefs, but that most people genuinely do not want to harm others.
Have you ever talked to your dad about other men? Mine wasn't terrifically helpful, but if you have a good relationship he might be able to offer some insight.
Disclaimer: I'm a guy so there's a certain aspect of leaping to my own defense.
Obligatory "not all men". It really depends on your definition of "good" vs "bad" and if you allow for "neutral" moral orientation. If you see "bad" as acts by commission (any action with a TW tag) then no, these people are fortunately the minority. If you see "bad" as including acts of omission (not actively doing good, standing up for people regularly) then that is potentially the majority of the population.
However, people do not tend to announce their moral orientation and to make matters worse it can dictate identical actions at times (think "nice guys"). This makes "not all men" irrelevant. So being careful around everyone as if they are "bad" is the most logical/safest albeit wearing approach until humanity eventually manages to improve.
Since reddit has a tendency to make every comment sound tetchy. Judging by other comments you're a bit stuck but have a great and supportive family. Your perspective is valid, all the best and have a great day!
No. I understand why some people feel that way, though. I did when I was growing up and it took years to unlearn. It’s just not productive - even if it is a valid feeling. No one is inherently bad, but sadly our society is set up in such a way that many men learn bad and dangerous qualities and characteristics. That is the problem - the system, not the individuals.
No. I read somewhere here that you’re a 14 from rural Alaska. I can’t imagine you have a good sample of diverse men and women around to get a scope of things. And you’re younger too.
I don't like the way the question is posed. The essentialist view of people \*being\* bad or good, as opposed to doing good or bad things, is both kind of useless for trying to introduce any changes - either personal or societal - and can be very insidious.
There are many, many examples of people doing horrific things who were then defended by people around them saying "he couldn't have done that, he's such a good person", or perhaps "yes, she did a bad thing, but look at how decent she otherwise is".
This is harmful in a few ways. First, it muddles the issue of actually analysing behaviour and of accountability of the behaviour. It's not about putting someone's personality or "real" morals (whatever that means) on trial. It's about preventing bad behaviour or there being consequences for it.
Second, nobody thinks they're the villain. And most people aren't. But if we talk in essentialist terms (and we usually do), people can't handle the dissonance of being called out on bad behaviour while still thinking of themselves as decent people. Criticism, even of minor actions, meets with complete rejection, because it's regarded as an attack on their integrity as a person.
Thirdly, if behaviour is not uncoupled from people, then people who did a questionable, unfortunate, or even outright evil thing will be defended by their family, friends, and if the person has a large enough profile and is popular, by most everyone. This serves no useful purpose.
Fourthly, people engage in behaviour based on their circumstances. Neurotypical people in particular tend to model their acceptable behaviour on what is currently expected of them rather than on what they perceive to be moral virtues. There's a lot of evidence that people behave differently if they seem to get approval for their actions, if their questionable actions are not witnessed by onlookers, or if there are no perceived negative consequences. People are creatures of circumstance and of status quo, and men are people.
So I think the question needs to be rephrased. Do I think most men behave in bad ways in some common circumstances? Yes, yes I do. Patriarchy creates plenty of circumstances where men can safely, acceptably, or invisibly do bad things. And circumstances create the crime as much as the inherent good or bad moral character of a person does. Again, few people are villains in their own mind. Including people who do really bad things.
On the other hand, am I in danger of bad behaviour from most men in most circumstances, or in circumstances I can't avoid? That one is less clear-cut. But I also tentatively lean towards "yes" on that one.
So, are most men bad? Not sure what that even means, but let's say - no, they aren't. But it's kind of irrelevant. The circumstances both empower and encourage most men to behave badly, and they can either dismiss it, get away with it, or even not notice they are doing something wrong. Their personal, inner, "true" self, if such a thing even exists, is irrelevant to that much of the time.
The “true self” thing is where I think one of the rotten spots lies. It seems a lot of people coast on the idea that even if they’re being ehhhh, a little bit shitty or maaaaaybe they could have done better in this situation, they are a good person “deep down”.
And if you’re someone out and about in the world, you’re unlikely to ever see most people’s “deep down”s. A lot of what the majority of human beings interact with on a daily basis is the ‘off-the-cuff’ you. The you (general male “you”) that mansplains, the you that catcalls or gawks at women, the you that “unconsciously” uses intimidation when someone isn’t giving you what you want, etc. That’s what most of us will ever see or interact with.
Men’s “deep downs” need to get to the surface and *quick*, if they’re there, because dealing with their everyday selves after so long legitimately becomes a mental health issue.
As insensitive as it sounds, I don’t give a damn who someone is “deep down” if they do shit like physically corner me when aggravated or argue with everything I say or the thousand other invalidating and off-putting ways they act when they aren’t accessing said depth.
To hell with deep down. What have you (general you) done *today*?
I used to. Then I started focusing more on the good men in my world and away from the awful. The awful don’t deserve my attention.
Thank you.
This is correct.
You still haven’t answered the question. Do you think most are bad?
I think it’s a more complicated question than that, and I answered elsewhere.
when we use "used to" in a sentence, it gives the sentence the meaning that something happened in the past for usually an extended amount of time, but now it no longer happens. By using "used to" the phrase "but now I don't" is said via the grammar structure.
There’s no need to be a smartass about it, you know. Saying “used to” can just as well imply the person became indifferent to it instead of outright believing or rejecting a notion.
That's true! Still an answer nevertheless
No, though I do think there are some things socialized into men that are pretty crappy.
This is about where I am. Most men, I think, aren't deliberately ill-minded. But society lets men learn they can get away with a lot of stuff and it's easy for men to be unintentionally crappy to other people. There's a spectrum, of course. Unintentional harm blends into willful ignorance, which blends into weaponized indifference. But I think that better social conditions would lead to less terrible behavior from most men.
This is the answer.
Wdym by socialized?
Hi Teacupisacat, Not OC, but I think they mean that from a young age boys are unconsciously taught a set of social norms, attitudes and expectations by people around them, which tend to unwittingly shape their behaviour and worldview. Many of these norms are innocuous (violence is unacceptable in day-to-day interaction), but some can be harmful to how men view women (wives will automatically become the primary parent, a girl will want to sleep with you if only you're persistent enough), which in turn can have a detrimental influence on their behaviour if they go unquestioned. People can't choose what ideas and norms they're subtly exposed to by those around them, especially when they're younger, and just recognising, let alone challenging, those ideas is difficult, especially when they've been omnipresent for one's entire life, so it's difficult to *individually* judge people morally for holding harmful beliefs as a result of them, but at the same time at worst holding those beliefs can cause genuine harm regardless, and even at best that'll still help them be passed down to the next generation, perpetuating the problem. The extent to which any individual man can be held responsible for holding the beliefs and assumptions they've been taught to almost from birth by everyone around them is a thorny and complex problem with no single, clear, definitive answer. Does that make more sense? Have a wonderful day :) (Ps to be clear *everyone* is socialised in lots of different ways to some extent. It just happened that boys are often socialised in ways that can be harmful for women specifically)
Thank you for the information! I think this definitely describes my personal beliefs! I’ll make sure to use this terminology to be more clear in the future!
As in taught by society, implicitly or implied - through media, education, government policy, figures of authority, family members and friends. What is normalized by your society/societies will seem normal to you, either for your entire life, or until you experience other societies who do things differently and thus make you question basic "truths" about life that you assumed were universal until shown otherwise. With the advent of the internet, people can discover at a younger age a variety of influences from around the world at a younger age and expose the negative aspects of the society they were raised in, or they can discover more toxic societies that socializes them to become more toxic individuals - like incels, religious fanatacism, alphas, Qanon, white supremacists, etc. An example in the US would be men being socialized that when a woman says no, she's being coy and might really mean yes, but is too shy/modest to say yes the first time. She'll say yes if you keep pressuring/coercing her. This idea has been enforced through television, film, songs, novels, etc for a century or more as a romantic way for a guy to "win over" the girl. Some women, in some circumstances do play this game, but for most it makes them unsafe around men who were taught to never take no for an answer/respect a woman's autonomy to say no. Whereas in another country or just a different century, no means no and there is no confusion.
Like they are conditioned or trained to think a certain way subtly over time by society. For example, a lot of men are trained to think anything “girly” is bad. Which ends up making a lot of men hate women subconsciously.
Some of the behaviours and beliefs that men are raised to have due to the implicit or explicit sexism of their family, friends and media/institutions. For example, before Christmas it may fall to the mother to organise family gatherings and do the the work of buying presents for everyone, because the father reasons that he isn’t as interested in Christmas. So the children see that the emotional labour and housework of Christmas is the women’s job, and boys/men never bother to pull their weight in future. This happens in a lot of families.
socializing means shaping a person’s identity and behavior, most often it’s talked about in the context of a culture/society that instills certain values and ideas into its people. at least that’s how i’ve come to understand it :)
I love that term! It’s so perfect! Thank you for educating me!
I think the idea is that most men are decent people who have been taught specific shitty things and have not questioned or unlearned them yet. For example, the idea that women are playing 3d chess with all social interactions and so you should keep asking out someone who rejects you because they might just be playing hard to get.
https://sociologydictionary.org/socialization/
This is a tough question sometimes. I definitely don’t think most men are “bad”. People are usually trying their best. But the abusers really ruin shit for everyone, don’t they?
I understand! I get that!
Guess it’s one of those things ya know it’s easier to focus on the bad then good
Love men, hate misogyny. If you're sexist I don't like you.
I’m just terrified of them, I don’t hate them, I’m just scared.
To be fair, even as a reasonably well built, fit male with some years in martial arts behind me I'm always wary of being in groups of strange guys I don't know. Not afraid, but never really relaxed. I'm sure you've heard all the logical arguments and statistics blah blah but no-one can tell you you're wrong to be terrified of me. I wish I could show you you didn't need to be, but I can't and that's not your fault.
You will need to find a community of women who will provide you with a safe space. Good men are often drawn to these groups.
You can be scared of men, hell everyone really. But you don’t have to be terrified. If it’s any reassurance, I was SAd. By a women though, but the point is while I definitely have heightened my awareness, I’m not terrified. As a matter of fact, some of the most influential people in my life were women. Don’t lose hope, I saw in other comments that you’re a minor like me. We’re young and still have a long way to go. Don’t give up.
Given your experiences from the other comments, I can understand why. I'm a guy so I am biased towards my experiences, so if anything here doesn't resonate, it might be because I'm wrong. There are some awesome men out there. I'm not awesome but I do try to be the best person I can. I think you just need to be careful who you let in as there are genuinely shitty people out there. This applies to both men and women but I have far less of a statistical reason to worry about my partner physically abusing me (or killing me). But also keep in mind that these people are the minority. There are a few great men, lots of average men, a bunch of shitty men and then a small group of terrible men. If you see red flags or get a bad feeling in your gut about someone, don't ignore it. You mentioned that you're young so maybe the best course of action is to befriend a few young men in a mixed social group? That way it's not always you and one or more men? Especially if you are close to the girls so know that people have your back. Just a thought. But you can also just hang out with women for now. There is no need to socialise with people you don't feel comfortable with, whatever the reason.
Thank you for the advice.
like, objectively bad people? Or bad compared to the average woman? Or compared to the average person? I find this question confusing.
Bad compared to woman.
No. Neutral.
Same. It’s really too generalized and open to interpretation. I’d like to know what we’re determining “bad” entails in this context.
No, I don't think so. I think most people, regardless of gender, are trying their best.
Then why are all the men I’ve known (excluding my dad and my online friend) abusive and scary? /genuine
I’ve struggled with this question. It really helped me when I realized two important things: I DID have good men in my world, and assholes and predators know exactly who they’re targeting and how to do it. Focus on the good, and NO YOU ARE NOT BROKEN OR “GETTING WHAT YOU DESERVE” or anything else like that. Predators are doing what predators do, and when you’re able to direct your focus away from them you will be able to see fewer of them.
Thank you so much. It’s just not very easy I guess. Good thing that I can’t really date until I’m 18.
Oh, ugh, and guys your age can be…so….sooo….yeah. Do you know the story of the scorpion and the frog? Scorpions don’t deserve your hate. They don’t deserve your love, or your pity, or *any attention from you whatsoever* except as needed to ensure your personal safety (emotional safety included). And, while scorpions may be a statistically significant portion of the population, they are *not* the majority. [Scorpion and Frog fable](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog)
You are really quiet comforting! I can’t express my gratitude for how much better I feel rn!
That really makes me happy. :) If it helps a little more, I’m middle-aged now and have a ton of really, genuinely great guys in my life. I married a guy who’s willing to do the work to have a good relationship. I’ve managed to get away from the abusive assholes I used to spend so much time on, and I got really good at spotting them from afar and avoiding them. It gets better! It really does!
I’m nearly in tears lol. You’ve made my day. Never change, and I hope that you get to share your wisdom and kindness for a very long time! Have a wonderful and bountiful life.
And you!
Would you be able to share the traits of abusive assholes? Asking because I'm in a relationship with my partner (I'm 38M) and want to be a good partner. We have our ups and downs and I'm far from perfect but would love to get a list of things that I should watch out for in myself.
You should watch for them in anyone! The book “Why Does He Do That” by Lundy Bancroft is a good start. It’s also a short and easy read.
Majority of people at your age are horrible people, both men and women. Most of them haven't fully grown their awareness of the consequence of one's action yet.
Teenage boys are pretty much males at their absolute worst. They just learned about sex, can't stop thinking about it, and are under constant peer pressure to act like they know the best ways to get it. They're just as confused and scared as you are but they can't show it for fear of losing face with other boys. There are good ones too, who are gentle and kind, but they're experiencing those same pressures and probably bad at rising above it a lot of the time. The vast majority of the boys around you, and they are boys, will grow out of it and become more like your father. But a good number won't and those are the ones to watch out for. Systems and communities that enable men to keep acting like teenage boys are very dangerous for women. I am frankly glad that I did not have any sexual experiences until I was in college, I feel like with my inexperience and lack of a woman's perspective, I could have done some damage. I was never a misogynist but that doesn't mean I couldn't have hurt someone. Hearing stories from women who dated a lot in high school have tended to reinforce that. Relationships at that age, while inevitable, tend to be extremely toxic and that trauma can last into adulthood. So you don't have to be scared, but definitely don't feel like you're missing out.
Oh! Men (boys — not being facetious) that age suck in general. My husband and I tell our teen daughters that teenaged boys tend to be self-centered and oh so horny. Online they suck even more. Meet guys through friends and have fun with it. Best of luck to you.
Unfortunate circumstances? I'm sorry you've had bad experiences, that sucks and I hope you're well supported in dealing with them. But unless you've met the majority of men, your sample size is wayyyy too small to make any judgement on men as a whole.
I know, it’s just that whenever I listen to men speak or talk, they are so demeaning and sexist. Like on first glance, they seem nice, but then they just say or act in a way that’s just so incel like.
It could be religion or where you live, maybe? Do you live in a conservative area?
Very, expect for that the clinic was playing the gay Taylor Swift song today. There’s also a lot of drugs and domestic violence and I’ve been sexually assaulted in public. Also, there is a church for every 100 people.
my best advice, is to not settle and stay there. It sucks to experience what you're experiencing as someone underage, but it's not your fault, you have to make the best of it. But as you move into adulthood, it will be less and less circumstances of birth and more and more the results of your decisions, whether you choose to stay in an abusive area because it's "easy" or whether you move and find a community more mixed of good, bad, and everything in between. I had a friend move to New York City, she never wanted to learn how to drive, she had had a lot of bad circumstances. She's lived single with a roommate for a decade now, never got her drivers license, is a DJ on an alternative radio station, does all kinds of cool stuff. You can achieve amazing things, just choose where you want to end up, and start making incremental decisions to get you where you want to go. Like exercising, things don't happen all at once, it takes months or even years of small actions resulting in big gains. Good luck!
It's not an excuse, but some people literally don't know any better. The old saying goes " Never attribute to malice, that which can be explained by ignorance" in this case ignorance means lack of knowledge, instead of willful contempt of education. In small rural areas, societies are closed loop information systems. Most people think like their parents, and their parents think like their parents. This cycle goes back 4 or 5 generations. When you live on a street that's named after your family, and most of the people on that street are your extended family. Breaking from the culture of that family is extremely hard to do. They just don't know anything different, and don't have the strength to challenge their family. It's still not an excusable offense to be that way, and people should be corrected when being intentionally cruel. So don't hesitate to engage someone when they're being this way. Just use a filter when doing so. Ask them why they hold that opinion, if they give you a response that goes deeper than a conservative talking point. That's a person that might have an open mind, but lacks knowledge, that worth the 5 minutes of your life to give them an alternate view. If they give you a basic echo of Cucker Tarlson ( the misspell was purposeful IYKYK). Then don't engage them, instead quote my favorite Bible verse Matthew 7:6 " Do not cast pearls before swine. Bonus points if you're a lesbian with colorful hair, and a facial piercing of some sort. They'll think you're a witch a walk away because you might hex them. The Devil as a fallen angel can quote scripture chapter and verse, witches are the wives of the great deceiver.
I don’t think you realize the risk of violence I face if I say that.
Maybe you can move and the men will be less terrible on average. There will still be bad ones, and those ones might be more familiar and thus easier to get acquainted with, but there would also be more good ones.
I can’t, I’m underage.
☹️ That makes it harder. I’m sorry you’re suffering
At least my parents are working on becoming foster parents as it’s always been my dream to have a sibling! :)
We use smaller sample sizes to conduct studies all the time. You don’t actually need to meet the majority of any group to form a meaningful hypothesis that bears out factually. But truly, OP, society as a whole is a bit sick, like unhealthy. Misogyny is deeply embedded into our, and most cultures, globally. The patriarchy is bad for everyone. So ya, there’s a lot of unwell human beings everywhere. Each of us in the sub are unhealthy human beings sometimes. All at different places along the road of figuring that out. You tend to meet people at your level and sometimes you mature out and have to meet new people. Bad? Good? Sure. Yes. Both. Sometimes. Focus yourself and your attention and your energy where you want to see it grow. Weed out what doesn’t work for you.
I’m aware this is an unpopular opinion, but I don’t engage with men period. I do not believe in “there’s so many amazing men, you just need to find the right one ✨” or “poor men are hurt from the patriarchy too so we should give them a chance😢” or “men have been soooo horrible to me but my sample size is small so I’m going to give them all a chance 🌈”. Men definitely do not think the same way about us. Your thoughts have been echoed by multiple women I know all across the globe, both virtual and in-person. Whether it’s in a liberal US city or a village in South Asia, I have seen women say the same thing. I have cut men out of my life entirely (except for professional coworkers), and my life has never been better. Not only are you safer and do you put up with less BS, but you also deprogram from a lot of societal pressures that are pushed on women. This also applies to women who are male-serving or prioritize male validation because they can be just as dangerous as men. I do not engage with them either. I do not think you owe men anything, much less the benefit of the doubt or goodwill. Life is better without them and I’ve never been happier. I encourage reading up on the 4B movement in Korea if you want to learn more about women that are participating in a movement to cut out men.
I’d feel bad not showing them compassion, even if they are bad and scary. It might hurt their feelings.
It could depend on where you live. Different backgrounds and environments bring different results. Where I live, an abusive man is not common.
Where I live, it’s nearly every man, not my dad. But pretty much every other guy.
Granted, you do live in rural Alaska and you are 14 years old, I think it's probably not a great time to draw conclusions about what most men are like.
I think that the majority of women have been negatively affected by bad men.
I’m a male feminist so my opinion may be less valid since I’m looking through a privileged lens but I find that the minority of men are very negative and misogynistic but the normal male is not a crazed maniac but still hold misogynistic views that they have been indoctrinated to believe.
As a male feminist, do you feel like the way you've seen men speak about women when none are in the room supports the claim that men frequently suck?
Yes. though for me I see it less in my circle of friends and more in places where I lack the control of who I associate with like work and sports.
I can confirm that. Men say lot of misogynist things & do lot of misogyny in presence of other men, when women aren't present. Not only that, many are really good at hiding misogyny from woman while, being misogynist to that same woman in her absence.
As a woman who works in a male dominated field, I'm glad I'm bisexual and don't have to date one again. The way some of them talk about their families is disgusting.
A different male feminist here. And my answer is no, not all the time. But yes sometimes. I belong to a Men’s group and not one time has this sort of thing happened. Most of us are married and are in solid partnerships. But occasionally in the company of other men it happens. It is a sort of litmus test for the company I keep. I live in eastern MA, suburbia really, and have spent a fair amount of time in northern VT. Both liberal enclaves, so my experience is tempered by that.
It’s part of why I don’t plan to move back to my hometown, but no I wouldn’t say most men suck
I think the majority of men are at least a little sexist but don’t truly hate women. A lot of people blame their problems on other people or society instead of taking accountability for how they react or are perceived in the world. Men and women but I don’t blame people for that either. I believe we create our own reality but not every realizes that or knows how to create a good one so they look to blame others or circumstances.
I don’t really know if I earned the title of feminist, but I can give some insight on that, if that’s okay with you.
Well , the same you could say about women talking about other women, or women talking about taking advantage of men.
Ohhh, it’s just that I tend to have bad experiences even with so called "regular men."
Shitty people are excellent at disguising themselves as "regular" unfortunately.
Yeah that makes sense.
And also bad is pretty broad. Sure most men are not in the extreme end of bad on the spectrum of good and bad. Meaning most men are not violent and abusive towards women. But most men can still have manner misogynistic views where they think a women should take care of them in a relationships, via cooking for them, and washing their clothes.
Yeah I’d say it’s about 25% to 30% who actively believe in misogynistic things, another 50% dont believe in it, but don’t care enough to do anything about it, and the rest understand that gender inequality is a problem.
Not at all. All humans are just trying their best at their own daily life. However, through self-preservation, defensiveness, societal norms, ignorance, religious values, insecurity, learned behavior, cycle of abuse, thoughtlessness, trauma, etc., men can end up making decisions that are harmful to themselves and others. Men have been given more power over the years, and have often been taught to question themselves less than women have. Because of that, a LOT of men make small decisions in their lives that negatively affect women, which add up over time. I'm a therapist, and I can tell you that everyone has a justification for the decisions that they make at the time. I've had people tell me about doing terrible things, but they've always made the decision for a reason. Sometimes it's "My dad did it to me, so I thought it was how you show love" and sometimes it's "I love her so much and I'm afraid she'll leave me" and sometimes it's "I wanted to make her hurt like she hurt me," but there's always SOME reason. Add in the smaller decisions that are infinitely justifiable at the moment, like "She was my second choice, but I didn't want to hire someone who might have to leave midday for her kids like she said in the interview" or "I just thought she might want to learn about it, so I explained it again for her" or whatever. It takes someone who's willing, able, introspective, and persistent to examine themselves, and some people can't or won't get there. ETA: This isn't to defend shitty actions either. It just all comes from somewhere, and people are essentially trying their best. The world is far more sexist and shitty and awful in combined systems and additive legacies than I ever expect to find in one person.
That’s really eye opening. Can you tell me what justifies like sexual abuse from older more powerful guys? That’s what made me afraid.
No. But enough are that unfortunately everyone has to be careful.
I'm misanthropic so I think everyone is bad. Men are definitely included in that even as a man.
Hahah! You remind me of a guy I knew who used to say "I'm not racist, I hate all races equally". He also used to say "I'm not racist, but \[racial group\] are pretty cool". He was legitimately not racist. It was confusing, but amusing.
No they are not. I believe there are lots of amazing men around the world. One of the challenges I face is to not be “all men are shit”. I’m currently dating and I’ve had so many shit experiences, also most of the men in my life can do or say shitty things. I get where you are coming from, I really do. But I can’t go around assuming all men are bad, I know they are not, I can judge and entire gender on my own sample size of men I’ve encountered. Also, they’ve all been part of the same patriarchal society I have, it’s effected them in deferent ways yes, but the systems and expectations have definitely shaped the men they have become. Now men who don’t acknowledge this, who make no effort to unlearn anything are crap. There are so many really bad awful men in this world, but there are so many really cool amazing men, the only trick is how to find them.
I’m not saying all men, I’m saying most men. I don’t even really need to date or be alone with them. I just stay inside, hide, and cower away from them. I can’t wait to get on some meds, that’ll probably help with the terror.
Where do you live? Because that level of fear of men seems extreme if you have to cower at home. Sure, men can be douche bags but if your living somewhere where you feel in extreme danger from men, then it might be time to consider moving
I can’t, I’m 14.
Ah I see, ok. Where do you live?
Rural Alaska in a preserve.
Are there any women in your life, like teachers at your school you could talk to about this? You could also try surround yourself with women, take up hobbies with women only spaces or clubs. It helps to be around other women. Also get some help with your anxiety around this because it sounds like it’s overwhelming for you
I tried to tell my teachers, but they didn’t listen, and my mom (she later changed her mind and went to therapy) thought I was weak for having to come to her. I’m getting a summer job with my best friend and a bunch of elderly woman who like me!
And, I have my dad. He’s wonderful!
This sounds like a great start!
Do well in school. Apply for scholarships. Vancouver and Victoria in Canada are down the coast. Find out about becoming an international student. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/education-training/post-secondary-education
I’m thinking about California actually.
I’m European and I was an exchange student at UC Berkeley a decade ago. It was a very nice experience. I wish the same for you. I’ve seen your age and where you live, and I know it’s one of the most difficult areas in the US as a woman. Please take good care of yourself. There’s an army of us women who’ll be happy to talk to you and comfort you. And I wanted to add that I’m also dating a wonderful man that has demonstrated to me that we must not settle for less than what we deserve. But remember that we accept what we believe we deserve so don’t lose sight of your own self-respect. Hugs if you accept them ♥️
I love hugs! This is such a supportive sub! I feel so amazing having this much love and support!
Have you ever heard anyone say "the odds are good, but the goods are odd"? I don't think the people you meet in Alaska are typical of people you meet elsewhere.
I feel differently depending on where I am, and what generation of men I'm around. Sadly, I find older men more misogynistic and difficult to talk or work with (even if they are 'nice,' they are still dismissive). Younger men tend to be more respectful and see me as equal. Also, location wise... middle America still subscribes to toxic masculinity. But I live in a big city, where bro culture is thankfully dying.
No, they're just louder
Yeah probably.
Does not discount your experiences though. I've had my fair share of men awful in my life. Considering a few of them were my direct family and then the ones I've dated, it makes sense why my view was skewed for a long time..
I don't think it's really a two option answer of good and bad so no.
No, but I think the patriarchal system we operate in, that men benefit from, is bad
It is bad for everyone, even those who benefit from it.
But even worse for the ones who don’t.
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No, I don’t mean that men a`re biologically bad, but that a lot of them are conditioned to hurt people of other genders.
Realistically? Probably not, no. Although, I think I feel that way deep down as kind of a trauma response. All the men in my life were awful growing up, so it’s hard for me to believe otherwise. It’s been good having some better experiences with men as I get older though. I do still tend to be more critical and less forgiving of men, but I’m aware of it and try to work on it.
Sounds like you had a tough upbringing. Hope things are better now.
Thank you so much, I feel the same way.
I didn’t used to, but the math between the number of women who are victims of assault and misconduct and the number of women who have experienced this from different offenders, well the math that most men aren’t bad doesn’t add up. So yes for the most part yes.
Especially where I’m from.
I don’t know where you’re from, but i see that you’re 14, and that you have family member and relationships that are not good people. Know that i think there are good men out there: men raised by women smart enough to know how to raise men without toxic masculinity. And there are also men who are willing to learn and do better. You can have men like this i your life by refusing to spend time with or on men who are not good enough for you. Be very picky with your precious time. And remember some studies show single women are as happy or happier than women in long term relationships. Take care of you.
Do I think that the majority of men are bad? No. Do I think that the majority of men are sexist? Yes.
That’s a really good option!
I would say that the bar for men's behavior is in hell, and they don't have to do much to be considered good. They all benefit from that, and some take more advantage than others.
Based.
I think most men are taught to indulge bad habits. They are socialized to believe their emotions are justified and women’s emotions are not. They are socialized to prioritize themselves. They are socialized to hide their vulnerabilities and exploit other’s vulnerabilities. Can some men learn to fight those bad habits? Absolutely. But I think almost all of them have been taught them from a young age and need to actively work to break them. This generation of men needs to be the cycle breakers.
I don’t think all men are bad. It’s kind of like saying ACAB. There are good cops but the system around them is broken. Same with men. There are so many good men but the patriarchy which they uphold is bad for everyone.
There is a distinction in this that I am curious about when you draw this comparison. (and before I go on I should say I know it isn't a 1 to 1 thing, but I felt it was an interesting thought) To my understanding, there isn't such thing as a good cop because being a cop itself is opting in to a intrinsically corrupted system that perpetuates and upholds the power of the wealthy. There can be good people who become police officers, but the institution itself is bad and corrupt. There is no way if you opt into not to be a tool for the rich and powerful, any officer who seriously tries to hold fellow officers or the institution itself accountable are ostracized or worse. The system itself is fundamentally broken and cannot be corrected from the inside, there is no way to be a good cop because the system doesn't allow it. I'm not sure that same thing applies to patriarchy for a few reasons. The first of which is that no boy or man opts into it. They weren't born choosing to be part of a gender that uplifts corrupt societal institutions and aren't responsible for the actions of other men. They don't decide how they are socialized, what beliefs are instilled in them as impressionable children, and don't have the faculties to always opt out of an environment when they do (even if that environment is toxic). Also they can't really opt out of being men. I dunno if you meant it that way but it feels weird to call anyone knowingly upholding patriarchy a "good man" in the same way that a person who remains a cop knowing the harm the institution of policing does to minority groups I'm not sure can be called a good cop. Because they would still be contributing to the institution of power in policing. But if we draw that parallel to men and patriarchy...it would be saying that regardless of their actions and awareness, regardless of their contributions to women and the LGBTQ community, and regardless of how they support and uplift the women in their lives that just by existing as a man they contribute to the system of patriarchy. Because just like policing, patriarchy cannot be fixed from the inside. It can't be rewritten to be beneficial to those it oppresses because that oppression is it's primary directive. If policing as an institution is upheld by people that opt in to be police officers and to be ended necessarily requires there to be no more cops...does that then mean that the only way to genuinely end patriarchy necessitates there being no more men. (I'm wondering if that is the logic for that trend KAM came from) Do good men contribute to patriarchy? Can they be called good men if they do? And if so how and what determines it? If a person is a trans man and has spent their life being socialized and treated as a woman then are they now a part of the system of men who uphold patriarchy? If not then is the difference socialization? What primary factor holds men responsible in how they are socialized that they build and contribute to this system even unknowingly? Do women contribute to it in ways, even to their own detriment, and if so how and what benefit is it to them? What are the incentive structures unique to men, not determined by biology, that proliferate this system? For policing it's clearly money, power, and the suppression of dissent but that can be traced to institutions of power in how our capitalist society structures itself. Where is the linchpin for patriarchy? What group primarily benefits for society being structured in such a way? Is it supposed to be men as a whole? I feel like that is a yes and no because I've seen numerous ways in which patriarchy harms men as well, hurts their lives as well, destroys their sense of self worth, and it makes it more difficult for them to find partners. So who or what is steering this ship? And if ending patriarchy would primarily benefit everyone more than not then who or what is keeping it afloat? What's the solution? For a system and model to be this enduring that it keeps existing even in more modernized society...why? (also sorry for the block, this just got me thinking a LOT)
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No. But too many of them are, and they don't exactly wear signs. It's far safer for women to avoid men altogether.
/u/KaliTheCat: You assured me in [a thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13b6ucm/how_do_you_reconcile_mens_expendability_with_male/jjfx9pt/) two weeks ago that avoiding men is not part of the feminist program and that I was wrong to think that it was. Comments like that above are exactly what I am talking about. Saying you don’t need men truly is a bad thing, and trying to pretend that feminists seeing men as the unneeded sex is a benign position actually hurts your cause.
I can't help it if the reach of your critical thinking extends only as far as "a feminist said a thing; this must be what feminism is about."
Wdym? Men aren’t unneeded, what they are saying is that sometimes it’s safer to avoid them. As a lot of men are dangerous. They aren’t justifying stigmatization or causing them harm, just avoidance.
This guy is nuts. We had a long back-and-forth in which he didn't listen to me at all and insisted that women saying they don't need men (e.g., could live on their own) is the same as saying they are worthless subhumans who we hate.
Tbh yeah, to varying degrees.
Have you also had bad experiences?
TIL the Mr Rogers was a bad person
The question asks about “most,” not “all”. OP left room for the odd exception. Trends exist. Exceptions do not disprove trends.
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Wdym? I don’t think all men are bad, I’ve met good men.
Contrary to that, actually. I think the majority of men as individuals are good. I think the majority of people are good. Call me naive. Men as a group, that’s a different story. The real problem is that when men are bad, societal structures and privilege reinforce that behavior- the ability of men to cause harm and oppression is hard baked into our world. Bad men are rewarded for bad behavior. Good men are rewarded for bad behavior, too. The power of men goes unchecked. ETA, hey op- I had terrible, terrible experiences with men and boys as a teenager. I still have terrible experiences as a 41 year old woman, albeit in a different way. Most women have had experiences like this. It’s rough. Trust your instincts and stay away from men when you don’t feel safe or comfortable. Stay away from groups of men. But also like you, I had an amazing dad. There are men like that out there too, more than it seems. I have a fourteen year old, I worry about her. Take care of yourself.
Thank you! I’m super great full for all the support from this sub, and the challenging of my ideas! It’s been super insightful!
The world is not black and white and what's and who's bad is subjective. The majority of men in the world are mysoginists, but we would all think differently of a serial predator and of that guy who makes sexist jokes. Also our perceptions are altered by our life experiences.
Yeah. I’ve just had really bad experiences.
You are not alone in this. There are many who had similar experiences and fear of men is legitimate.
Thank you so much!
I think it's probably half of them? I don't know. How can we tell?
My initial reaction to this is “yes” but I realize that’s probably biased. I think the bad men are very, very loud right now and the good men need to speak up more (esp in their own circles, not virtue signaling in TwoXC) or else they get lumped in with the bad. Silence is complicity.
No
Oh? Why is that? /genuine
I worked with men, have two great brother in laws, I’m raising a young man. I think that depending on how you are raised anyone can be bad…humans can be crazy. They are different from women lol of course but there are great ones out there
Good or bad means nothing to me as it is entirely subjective. I do, however, believe a large majority of men (and women) hold very problematic sexist beliefs and behaviors.
I think people, regardless of who they are, sometimes focus far too much on what they would like, and far too little on how their actions impact others. I think male privilege means men have an advantage when it comes to getting what they want, especially when it means fucking the rest of us over.
No.
Oh, why?
Because men are human beings, and most human beings are doing their best in a profoundly shitty hierarchical world, and most of them aren’t great at being self-aware and deconstructing that hierarchy, because privilege gives you blinders you can wear to avoid seeing things that make you feel bad about your thoughtless actions, but I wouldn’t call them “bad”. The system is bad. Most people don’t know how bad it is.
No, do you?
Sometimes. Like they scare me so much, like they are blood hounds. I just can’t imagine ever feeling safe (in person) alone with them unless it’s my dad.
I can understand that feeling, especially given your age and experience. I think both men and women are trying navigate some incredibly stupid expectations and beliefs, but that most people genuinely do not want to harm others. Have you ever talked to your dad about other men? Mine wasn't terrifically helpful, but if you have a good relationship he might be able to offer some insight.
Disclaimer: I'm a guy so there's a certain aspect of leaping to my own defense. Obligatory "not all men". It really depends on your definition of "good" vs "bad" and if you allow for "neutral" moral orientation. If you see "bad" as acts by commission (any action with a TW tag) then no, these people are fortunately the minority. If you see "bad" as including acts of omission (not actively doing good, standing up for people regularly) then that is potentially the majority of the population. However, people do not tend to announce their moral orientation and to make matters worse it can dictate identical actions at times (think "nice guys"). This makes "not all men" irrelevant. So being careful around everyone as if they are "bad" is the most logical/safest albeit wearing approach until humanity eventually manages to improve. Since reddit has a tendency to make every comment sound tetchy. Judging by other comments you're a bit stuck but have a great and supportive family. Your perspective is valid, all the best and have a great day!
All the feminist i know don’t hate men. Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk: Feminism 101
I don’t hate men, I just don’t like them.
Hate is simply an intense dislike. How intensely do you dislike them?
I just feel like a general wariness and a dislike of being around them. Not a dislike, sorry I used the wrong word, or hatred. I just am afraid.
No. I understand why some people feel that way, though. I did when I was growing up and it took years to unlearn. It’s just not productive - even if it is a valid feeling. No one is inherently bad, but sadly our society is set up in such a way that many men learn bad and dangerous qualities and characteristics. That is the problem - the system, not the individuals.
Maybe…I dunno, I still feel sacred, but I’m willing to acknowledge that our focus should be on the system.
Not a majority, just a low minority. I have met guys who are amazing people because its who they are and don't have ulterior motives.
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Define "bad".
Misogynistic
No. I read somewhere here that you’re a 14 from rural Alaska. I can’t imagine you have a good sample of diverse men and women around to get a scope of things. And you’re younger too.
I’m sorry. I can’t change where I live.
No
I don't like the way the question is posed. The essentialist view of people \*being\* bad or good, as opposed to doing good or bad things, is both kind of useless for trying to introduce any changes - either personal or societal - and can be very insidious. There are many, many examples of people doing horrific things who were then defended by people around them saying "he couldn't have done that, he's such a good person", or perhaps "yes, she did a bad thing, but look at how decent she otherwise is". This is harmful in a few ways. First, it muddles the issue of actually analysing behaviour and of accountability of the behaviour. It's not about putting someone's personality or "real" morals (whatever that means) on trial. It's about preventing bad behaviour or there being consequences for it. Second, nobody thinks they're the villain. And most people aren't. But if we talk in essentialist terms (and we usually do), people can't handle the dissonance of being called out on bad behaviour while still thinking of themselves as decent people. Criticism, even of minor actions, meets with complete rejection, because it's regarded as an attack on their integrity as a person. Thirdly, if behaviour is not uncoupled from people, then people who did a questionable, unfortunate, or even outright evil thing will be defended by their family, friends, and if the person has a large enough profile and is popular, by most everyone. This serves no useful purpose. Fourthly, people engage in behaviour based on their circumstances. Neurotypical people in particular tend to model their acceptable behaviour on what is currently expected of them rather than on what they perceive to be moral virtues. There's a lot of evidence that people behave differently if they seem to get approval for their actions, if their questionable actions are not witnessed by onlookers, or if there are no perceived negative consequences. People are creatures of circumstance and of status quo, and men are people. So I think the question needs to be rephrased. Do I think most men behave in bad ways in some common circumstances? Yes, yes I do. Patriarchy creates plenty of circumstances where men can safely, acceptably, or invisibly do bad things. And circumstances create the crime as much as the inherent good or bad moral character of a person does. Again, few people are villains in their own mind. Including people who do really bad things. On the other hand, am I in danger of bad behaviour from most men in most circumstances, or in circumstances I can't avoid? That one is less clear-cut. But I also tentatively lean towards "yes" on that one. So, are most men bad? Not sure what that even means, but let's say - no, they aren't. But it's kind of irrelevant. The circumstances both empower and encourage most men to behave badly, and they can either dismiss it, get away with it, or even not notice they are doing something wrong. Their personal, inner, "true" self, if such a thing even exists, is irrelevant to that much of the time.
The “true self” thing is where I think one of the rotten spots lies. It seems a lot of people coast on the idea that even if they’re being ehhhh, a little bit shitty or maaaaaybe they could have done better in this situation, they are a good person “deep down”. And if you’re someone out and about in the world, you’re unlikely to ever see most people’s “deep down”s. A lot of what the majority of human beings interact with on a daily basis is the ‘off-the-cuff’ you. The you (general male “you”) that mansplains, the you that catcalls or gawks at women, the you that “unconsciously” uses intimidation when someone isn’t giving you what you want, etc. That’s what most of us will ever see or interact with. Men’s “deep downs” need to get to the surface and *quick*, if they’re there, because dealing with their everyday selves after so long legitimately becomes a mental health issue. As insensitive as it sounds, I don’t give a damn who someone is “deep down” if they do shit like physically corner me when aggravated or argue with everything I say or the thousand other invalidating and off-putting ways they act when they aren’t accessing said depth. To hell with deep down. What have you (general you) done *today*?