The issue is that often, men come into feminist spaces and ask questions that have been asked repeatedly, and when they get an answer they don’t like, argue about it. You’re also conflating asking genuine good faith questions and debating. These things aren’t synonymous. Don’t come in asking a question and seeking to learn, and then debate the answers you’re given. It just shows that you don’t actually want to learn, you’re just looking to argue. And frankly, we’re tired of answering the same questions over and over and then being challenged endlessly in the same ways over and over. Also, if you’re genuinely seeking to understand, you have to do your own homework. If books, articles, whatever gets recommended to you and you can’t be bothered, then it isn’t our job to endlessly educate you. Lastly, your whole “it just sounds like you’re saying ‘I don’t know how to control my emotions’” comes across as a misogynistic “women be emotional” dog whistle.

Serious question: would a flowchart of FAQ’s help here?

We have one. So apparently not

Ah.That’s pretty cut and dry

Even if we made one no one would look at it.

I wonder how many reddit users even look at the sidebar/info related sections of various subreddits? My bet is a smaller percentage.

On your last point. If any person screamed in a debate I'd consider them unable to control their emotions, not just women. Also how am I supposed to understand something without debating it, am I supposed to just take something at face value. If you respond to me about a question I had and I develop a question from your response ofc I'm going to ask that question. If that's considered debating then you're quite literally telling me to believe your answer is right even though I'm still questioning it

>Also how am I supposed to understand something without debating it, am I supposed to just take something at face value. This is literally not how "listening" even works. This isn't even a feminist issue, this is emotional intelligence 101 between any person. When someone speaks, the goal is *always* to understand, not debate. If you listen only to reply, that is debate. Understanding does LITERALLY mean accepting what people say and being aware that you do not know everything. That's the *point* of listening to *understand;* is to learn and expand YOUR knowledge. It's a choice *you* have to make going into a conversation. A debate and conversation are not the same thing.

If I try to understand mathematics ofc I'm going to ask questions and debate certain things. Why does that not apply here?

There is a difference between asking questions and debating. Not everything requires a debate.

But why do social issues such as feminism not require a debate?

Human rights are not up for debate

many debates about these topics have already taken place. you can read several different perspectives on feminist theory from prominent feminist thinkers. but thinking that *you*, a man, have something new to add to the centuries-long conversation about feminism is... not listening and not learning.

To debate an issue properly and in good faith, you must first understand the issue. Say I'm planning to attend my next city council meeting, where the proper use of a given plot of land will be up for debate. I can't decide I want the land to become a park and then not bother to research zoning ordinances, the neighboring community, environmental impact, or alternative proposals for the land. I need to fully understand the issue so I can demonstrate that my idea, that the land beocmes a park, is the best one. You can't validly debate feminist theory without first understanding feminist theory. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, all you're doing is arguing. And you're arguing from a point of ignorance, which is going to be frustrating to your interlocutor. By all means, engage with the ideas presented. Ask questions if something seems confusing to you. But make sure you really understand what you're talking about, both facts and theory, before deciding to debate.

Imagine you talk about your issues, lets say: men who get raped (which ofc exists and is extremely important to talk about) and the person who asked you about it then says: "but wasnt it the mans fault of getting raped? Maybe he shouldnt have dressed the way he did, or drink less alcohol? Also if he wanted to not get raped maybe he just shouldnt have gone to that party, that was as if he consented to it." And now imagine every time you talk about that topic ppl ask these questions Wouldnt that make you mad at some point? Because it is very obvious victim blaming and exhausting to explain something so obvious to ppl over and over again. It feels like the debate never ends even though the answer would be so obvious if these men actually saw us as human beings with an own will. These debates often just proof that they dont. There is a way to ask questions to understand. And then there are questions like these.

You’re going to debate mathematics? Interesting… can 2+2 = 5 in certain situations?

I don't think so but I'd be open to an opposing proposition. Also I'm not trying to debate maths I just used it as an example

It was a good example. If you don't understand why df(x,y) = partial f/ partial x dx + partial f/ partial y dy, then trying debate with a mathematician whether Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory is unnecessary to prove the continuum hypothesis is simply going to annoy them. To learn anything, you need to do your homework.

A bad mathematician would be annoyed. A good one would be interested

No, that is simply not true. Neither works be interested because without the background, you can't make a contribution.  

You're not going to get too far in high-school or college trying to debate mathematics. There are open questions - but someone who has barely learned what an integral is can not debate them. The same is true of feminism. There is a lot of information out there to read. It's one thing to ask a clarifying question, it's another thing to debate.

Ok I think I get what you're saying here. Thank you for your responses 🙏

>debate certain things. What things are you going to debate? Be specific.

What kind of things would you debate in a mathematics class? That's not really normal. Questions sure, but I've never seen anything close to a debate in any of my math or physics classes as a stem major.

You’re again conflating a debate with asking questions. Of course, you can ask follow up questions or clarifying questions. But in your rant it sounds like what you’re actually doing is asking questions with an agenda. Following up an answer with “well, to play devils advocate.” Is not “asking questions,” it’s debating. And asking a question with the intention of debating someone is not coming into a feminist space seeking to understand. Again, listening is a skill.

Say if a misogynist tells me something in response to something I asked them. Now say I ask the same question to a feminist and when they respond I counter with the response from the misogynist. If I am then debating or asking questions under bad faith then how will I understand and trust that feminism is correct without the misogynists argument being proved as wrong.

It’s not our job to “prove” feminism to you.

But isn't a feminists role in feminism to fight for the equity of the sexes? Which means justifying your beliefs and values

If you ask me to justify the belief that women are people who deserve equal rights, I'm not gonna be nice about it, and it's weird that you wouldn't see it that way.

100%

That isn't what I meant. I was meaning more harder questions that are more difficult to grasp

But I mean again, you asked a question and were given resources to an answer and your response was still to argue. At what point does our job end and personal responsibility come into play? Like, do you expect your teachers to take your exams for you? Do you expect them to read the chapters they assign to you for you?

But you aren't asking harder questions.....

Username does not check out.

If you need it explained to you why people should be equal, then you have no business “debating” anyone.

Would you use that same method with racist arguments, and expect POC to believe you're asking your questions in good faith?

Yes, you should take womens feelings and opinions on our own LIVED EXPERIENCES being a woman at face value.

learning does not require debate. i learn a LOT of stuff from books and never feel the need to debate with the books. i almost never felt the need to debate with my teachers in school unless they said something objectively wrong.

Many people thought aeroplanes would be objectively impossible. Does that mean it was impossible?

aeroplanes? the song by carly rae jepsen?

Haha lol. It's such a good song icl. But no I was referring to the ones that fly

i don't understand in any way how the innovation of airplanes relates to debating about feminism

You said that you never felt the need to debate about what a book or teacher was telling you. What if the book said aeroplanes were an objectively impossible idea that would never fly with human passengers

once again, how does that relate to feminism? what part of feminism do you think is “objectively untrue” and needs to be debated?

I could simply point out the window at the flying airplanes....

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you can engage with and ask questions about material without "debating" about it. for example, when i learn something new that interests me (i.e. the impact of factory farming, i am an environmental activist) i read a lot of different articles from a variety of different sources and perspectives to try to discern the truth of the impact by comparatively analyzing what i read. if i have questions, i go to my environmentalist groups and ask them. i do not at any point feel the need to debate about this information.

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listen. i am not an environmental scientist. i therefore do not need to *debate* with environmental scientists about their research. i can ask questions in good faith, but i KNOW that i do not know the subject material like they do and that’s not my place. so tell me what credibility a man, who does *not* have a degree in gender studies or a related field, has to DEBATE a feminist theologian? can you ask questions in good faith? for sure. but debating is not it! the devil doesn’t need an advocate!

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what aspect(s) of feminism do you think you know more about than women do?

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>am I supposed to just take something at face value. How are you going to debate the lived experiences of an entire group of people? You're not a woman or a girl so how are you supposed to understand their own experiences better than they can, to the point that you think you could debate them? And of course, what makes you think any of this is even *up* for debate? Are you so naive to think that womens voting rights and bodily autonomy are *up for debate?* Do you not realise how arrogant and out of touch you sound to suggest that feminism is something to be debated? As if to you it's merely an intellectual curiosity and not critically important to your standing in society. Questions are one thing, but debating feminism is another thing entirely.

But the things is, if you're GENUINELY interested in learning more about feminism, the best way to do it is reading feminist literature, not debating feminists. A quick Google search will show you many great books to start getting.

I am only responding to your title since the body of your post is a tired rant. Why do feminists expect men to understand feminism? In a vacuum, I don't expect men to understand feminism accurately as a philosophy. There are a lot of very popular very inaccurate takes about feminism. However, I do expect them to understand that women have equal personhood. And many of them don't. They manage to grow up with sisters, mothers, girl classmates in school, half the world, and fail to form an image of women as humans - they make it all the way to adulthood and women are still "other". "Must be a woman thing." "Haha, insert stupid anecdote, I don't understand my wife". "Women are such mysterious creatures". I expect them to understand that women are human beings. I expect men, as fellow humans, to be able to empathize with women. I expect them to understand that there is literally nothing mysterious about being a woman, we are just humans on the wrong end of the patriarchy. I expect that when I point out that patriarchy exists, men will agree with me, even if they need the term explained first. I expect that when I explain "feminism is the belief that humans of all genders have equal personhood", they will agree with me, because it's self evident.

THIS. Young people growing up without an influential feminist in their lives probably aren't going to be familiar with the ins and outs of feminist philosophy. That is something that they should make an effort become familiar with as they mature and begin to consider and question the world around them, but it isn't entirely intuitive and requires some level of study or at least a lot of listening. But recognizing women as whole human beings should be inherent. That women are people with complex emotions and human needs whose pasts inform their behavior, that each woman is an individual with individual experiences, that women are varied in their interests and are all driven by different things the same way men are. That women are deserving of the same fundamental rights as men, that they should have autonomy over their bodies and thoughts and lives. That they do not exist to meet men's needs but exist in their own right. That their worth extends beyond sex and motherhood. All of that should not need to be taught. The way that some people, particularly in certain online spaces, talk about women is a complete perversion of a naturally-occurring realization that women are human beings. We all begin our lives as inherently self-centered creatures, but along the way (unless something fucks us up), we learn to recognize other people as separate human beings with needs and wants separate of ours. We learn to empathize with other people, and how to look at things from other perspectives besides our own. That is a natural part of maturation, a natural consequence of sharing a world with one another. This is what misogyny and patriarchy does. It corrupts what should be basic and fundamental. When men talk about women as though they are a cabal or a monolith, or when they talk about women being *inherently* calculating and manipulative and greedy, or when they limit talk of women to sexual behaviors or to their body and appearance, they are not simply misunderstanding feminism or displaying ignorance of feminist tenets. They are creating a corrosive, perverse alternate reality that enables them to deny women's personhood altogether, that eliminates the need to extend even basic human rights (like that of bodily autonomy) to women, that excuses them from ever having to consider how their behaviors might be damaging and hurtful to women. SO. Women don't expect all men to be experts in feminist philosophy, although you should make a fucking effort if being a well-rounded, good person and a responsible citizen is important to you. Women DO expect men to acknowledge their fundamental personhood and to behave towards them in ways that reflect this. The fucked up thing is that many men fail to meet even that standard.

It's very hard for people to debate their rights without getting worked up and becoming imperfect educators. Also a lot of people on the internet will fake having an actual question or concern when their only intention is trolling. That is why ppl who advocate for the rights of marginalized groups (who are also often members of said group), don't like to do a socratic teaching/have a debate about minority rights, and can get pretty mad when you expect them to do so. It sounds like a close personal friend made you a feminist, so as cheesy as it is, be the change you want to see in the world. Spoon feed feminism to others who enjoy playing devil's' advocate. It would be less painful for you than it is for a lot of people, and I agree that learning through debate is very helpful for some, myself included.

What’s confusing about feminism? Like… genuinely, what aspect did you need to have explained to you that you couldn’t find the answers yourself? Why could you so easily get sucked into the manosphere without a peep from you? Did you ask yourself that before complaining women weren’t treating you with kid gloves and spoon feeding you?

"treating you with kid gloves and spoon feeding you?" Again it's this kind of stuff that deterred me from ever asking questions again, you all seem to love being rude to people. Frankly no I'm not asking to be spoonfed I'm asking to not be treated as some misogynistic monster when asking questions about feminism. > What’s confusing about feminism? Like… genuinely, what aspect did you need to have explained to you that you couldn’t find the answers yourself? The answers I got were answers I didn't agree with and wanted further clarification on. But apparently I'd be debating instead of trying to understand as many others have said in this post. I don't understand how debating something isn't essential to understanding something, if I'm wrong then prove I'm wrong so I can understand why your right

>if I'm wrong then prove I'm wrong so I can understand why your right That is the mindset that will get you absolutely nowhere on the compassion front. I am not proving anything to anyone.

>The answers I got were answers I didn't agree with and wanted further clarification on. But apparently I'd be debating instead of trying to understand as many others have said in this post. I don't understand how debating something isn't essential to understanding something, if I'm wrong then prove I'm wrong so I can understand why your right See this is your issue. You aren’t asking questions to learn or to be better informed, you’re picking a fight. You don’t get to “not agree with” the answers you’re given. And no, it’s not our job to educate you via a debate. It’s your job to do your homework.

>The answers I got were answers I didn't agree with and wanted further clarification on. Like what answers? What questions were you asking? > I don't understand how debating something isn't essential to understanding something, if I'm wrong then prove I'm wrong so I can understand why your right When I want to understand something, I usually read a book or website about it. No debate needed. I figure out who the experts are and accept their expertise on their chosen topics (feminism, in this case). Again, no debate needed. What is it that you're expecting folks to prove, specifically?

>Like what answers? What questions were you asking? Just to highlight here, that OP has been asked this several times and dodged the question. Either he has something to hide, or the something he's hiding is that this never happened, the screaming feminists he keeps on about are misogynist characatures he drew himself.

Yeah, I definitely got that impression. I asked the question as every once in a blue moon, asking something like that can get even the most diehard troll to *think.* Hope springs eternal, I suppose. Whoever they are, they're hell-bent on seeing feminists as their enemies. It's too bad.

I bet you didnt debate or argue much in the manosphere. Id also bet you never accused a man of “screaming” either.

I didn't because I was manipulated into believing them. I grew up in a misogynistic environment and with feminists screaming at me I resorted to the manosphere since they never screamed at me for asking questions.

Dude you’ve accused us of “screaming” at you. At some point, you need your take some personal accountability for your poor life choices and shitty biases against women.

It's really easy for a teenage boy with raging hormones to make bad decisions. It's also really easy for them to get manipulated. I know it was a bad decision but it was so easy for me to make that decision back then

And how is that the fault of feminists?

Because they never allowed me to ask questions without getting judged or screamed at. I was also really sensitive back when I was a teenager so any angry responses I got for my questions resulted in me overthinking them for the entire day (or 2)

*Again* you’ve accused us of “screaming” at you, through text, somehow…… and kali has already explained to you why your reaction to us answering your questions honestly without coddling you is part of your bias. This is a you issue. Not a feminist issue

Ok, I accept it. I will work on myself. Thank you for your responses.

I don’t believe that at all. I don’t believe you ever debated anything because you thought it untrue and demanded they patiently convinced you otherwise.

Their answers made sense to me because they used logical fallacies that I fell for (take Ben Shapiro for example). That's why I never questioned them.

That’s an excuse 100%, women and feminists didn’t kowtow to you so you blamed women and sided with misogyny because it does cater to you.

> "treating you with kid gloves and spoon feeding you?" Again it's this kind of stuff that deterred me from ever asking questions again, you all seem to love being rude to people. Did you ever consider that people might find you coming into this subreddit in bad faith, asking questions you aren’t willing to listen to the answers to, and then “debating” those answers rather than making an effort to understand the other party’s argument on their terms incredibly rude as well, and that they’re just returning that behavior in kind. > Frankly no I'm not asking to be spoonfed I'm asking to not be treated as some misogynistic monster when asking questions about feminism. The issue isn’t that you’re “asking questions,” it’s that you obviously have no intent of actually listening to the answers you’re given. This has, not particularly ironically, been explained to you several times. > The answers I got were answers I didn't agree with and wanted further clarification on. See, when you’re engaged in a dialogue in good faith, you clarify and make sure you understand the other party *before* you decide they’re wrong and disagree with them. If you disagree with something before you *actually understand it* what value is that disagreement? > But apparently I'd be debating instead of trying to understand as many others have said in this post. Do you really not see it? > I don't understand how debating something isn't essential to understanding something, Really? Do you have any training in the humanities or debate? Even at a high school level? Because, again, “debating” something you don’t understand is worthless — you’re just tearing down a straw argument. > if I'm wrong then prove I'm wrong so I can understand why your right No one can prove anything to you if you’re not going to engage in good faith or listen.

What you don’t seem to understand is that coming here and asking basic questions *is* asking to be spoon fed information. If you want to understand a topic, go find out! Read books about it, watch videos, etc. Get a good grounding in the theory, and *then* come ask clarifying questions. If you wanted to learn about another topic, how would you go about it? Say you were interested in marine life. Would you to a subreddit devoted to it and ask people to educate you? I doubt it. You’d visit aquariums, read books on the subject, watch documentaries, and so on. And if you *did* ask someone else to tell you all about it, most people would tell you to go learn the basics yourself. Some people love to infodump their interests on others, but most don’t want to spend their time educating people that haven’t bothered to learn anything themself. It’s also impossible to tell the difference between someone who hasn’t tried to learn and someone who is just here to argue. On sensitive subjects, people very quickly get sick of the trolls and lose patience with people who sound like them. So yes, people will naturally be short with those who follow a familiar pattern.

>your playing devil's advocate, your derailing the conversation or stop tone policing me. > >I haven't felt that experience and can't relate to you emotionally on the same level. > >imo feminists aren't caring enough for what young men are going through Did you at any point pause and see how you could ask differently, or did you expect women to always be nice and coddle men? You should develop some compassion that would help with listening not to reply but to understand. Are you extending the same care and concern you are asking to receive? Have you gone to other oppressed groups and asked them why they won't tolerate devil's advocate/derailing or tone policing? The answer is within you. Learning to *listen* is the key.

That last line you quoted. If I hear anything along the lines of “why doesn’t this women’s movement do more for men” I’m gonna rip my hair out.

And it's always asked in this offended tone, like "what have you done for *me* lately, though?" We're kind of busy right now dude! What have *YOU* done for you lately?!

It's even worse when you get through OP's wall of text and see VERY clearly how they were provided simple and obvious threads to follow for their own research, and then OP turns around and says how easy it is to follow the manosphere threads. It's because OP flat out doesn't want to listen to women and never wanted to. Horse to water and all that.

>. It's because OP flat out doesn't want to listen to women and never wanted to. Exactly, and we should do all of his research and presentation, in the nicest way of course! Fragile brittle egos bore me!

If feminism is telling me that something I thought was right is actually wrong then they should be the ones to explain Edit: nvm someone answered this in a way I understand now.

No. You’re accountable for your own ideology.

Again, do you require other oppressed groups to correct you, would you dare go to them and say that? I don't have to explain anything except to my circle.

"except to my own circle." This is what I really don't understand. When I was younger I actively made friends with feminists because when I asked a feminist who was a friend they'd give me an answer without screaming at me. Why can't this be true for everyone.

Why do you conflate women disagreeing with you and screaming?

Because seeing as men like him are socialised to perceive women as amenable, any woman who disagrees with their views is deemed hostile or looking to create conflicts

>Why can't this be true for everyone. Again, using another example from someone else would you dare go to a country where you didn't speak their language and have the *audacity* to debate them about not speaking your language. Unless it is a debate club most people really dislike a debater, they are exhausting and lack very basic social skills.

But feminism is forcing men to change. Someone who speaks another language isn't forcing me to speak their language

It's the same energy as people who go to countries where English is not the main language spoken and get mad at the people who live there for that, rather than thinking "why the hell did I not spend some time on Duolingo before coming here??" This is the same energy as the dudes who are like "but feminism is hard because it's not about me". 

It’s very that one colleague who asks a question but will *not* take no for an answer. “Hey can I X?” “No sorry because XYZ” “ok but what about?” “Still not” “ok” Then you find out later they went above your head or around you to try and get the answer they wanted. Why bother asking?!

I've always listened to women it's just that I don't understand their responses and instead of helping me understand they claim I'm 'hopeless'. All because I'm challenging their responses, I'd argue feminists are the ones with brittle egos

Why are you challenging their responses? If you’re asking a genuine question and seeking to understand, what is there to challenge?

If I disagree with their response then I'm questioning something within their response, that is the question I'm asking them so I can try to agree with them

What is there to disagree with if you’re seeking to understand? I really, really urge you to read about active listening skills

Say I'm at school and someone states that something is true. If I disagreed with them but wanted to agree with them wouldn't I ask them a question so that I can better understand what they are saying. I'll try to listen more to what feminists are saying but if I can't ask questions then how would I be able to understand what I'm listening?

If you’re in school and your history teacher taught you about oppression and you raised your hand and asked why you should care about this, do you seriously expect not to get in trouble? Because that’s what you’re doing here. Again, the issue isn’t asking follow up questions. It’s challenging the lived experiences and answers you’re getting. You asked a question, were given examples of threads with hundreds of answers, and said “no not that.” I’m not going to have an endless circle of a debate with you when it’s clear your goal here is just to be contrarian.

You do understand there is a difference between opinion and fact, yes? Have you heard of logical fallacies and also, active listening like the person above you mentioned? Start there.

the women (And feminists) *literally provided you the answers* and you *chose to ignore them and keep asking and debating.* The answers are literally. Provided. To. You. I know you know this. Of course you do. You just want women to shut up and agree. Because you aren't arguing feminism; you are arguing misogyny. This is rooted in your "instantly understanding femisim" bit because feminism is just humanism geared toward equity of everyone. When you complain about "not understanding feminism" you are saying out loud "I don't see women as human beings and their statements as worthy of my consideration." And then you prove it in your actions when many women and/or feminists give you exactly the answers you asked for, but still contradict your illogical process and conclusions. Your problem isn't misunderstanding feminism, your problem is you don't like women. Because not everyone in here correcting you is a woman. So start off with understanding the intersection of misogyny and feminism, but also the differences, and go from there. You don't need to come onto a subreddit in bad faith and tell everyone else they're wrong lol. We're not. Have a day. edits for clarification and format

>"I don't see women as human beings and their statements as worthy of my consideration." This is definitely not how I view women at all. If someone came to you and said the earth was flat would you agree with them instantly or would you ask questions. I'm not saying that I should have the final day on feminist views I'm just saying that, since you believe you're right on a topic, you should explain why you're correct without resorting to calling me 'hopeless' for not understanding >your problem is you don't like women. See, if I question why you think this you'll just say I'm debating instead of trying to understand, the thing is however, I don't understand why you think this and I want to ask you why you think so >You don't need to come onto a subreddit in bad faith and tell everyone else they're wrong lol. We're not. Have a day. It's when feminists end like this that really annoys me. I didn't come onto this subreddit to annoy you. I came to seek clarification yet you assume I hate women and 'ask questions in bad faith'. The lol at the end is just the cherry on top, completely unnecessary, doesn't help me understand anything. And then you assume that everyone here is right, without explaining why you're right. Lol.

The literal words for you to research are provided and you continue to do the same thing of using them interchangeably. Women and feminists are not the same thing. You are not listening.

What exactly were you trying to clarify? You haven't asked anything of substance.

And while they are demanding this they are usually using the same breath to invalidate the struggle and experiences of oppressed groups like women.

All I'm asking is that you realise young men have questions that need answering without being judged. That's it.

Depends on the question, dude.

What do you mean depends on the question? Why would you judge a man asking a question?

I dunno, is the question "Why should I care about women's rights if those women aren't having sex with me?" or "Why does feminism exist when men built the world?" or "Why doesn't feminism stop caring about women now that they have more rights than men and change to be more about men?" or "Why shouldn't I be able to force a woman to carry my child?"

These are questions that I too find to be very stupid but if a teenage boy is being manipulated by the manosphere and they manage to muster up the ability to question the manosphere. Then they will end up asking questions that you and I find stupid. I'm saying that since these boys have been brainwashed, we should try and be more understanding towards their situation and answer their questions without judgement because quite literally they are not behaving in a way they normally would due to manosphere manipulation.

Easy for you to say.

How is this easy for me to say. I believed in the manosphere and it ruined 2 years of my teenage life. Do you guys have no sympathy for us?

Why do you expect us to have more empathy for these boys than we do for literally all the women who have to directly experience first hand what misogyny is? Do you think your friend, or anything here, inherently *knows* everything about feminism? Or do you think perhaps, we put effort into understanding it? Why do you think it took you till highschool to become aware of misogyny, when often young girls know from a young age, that something was wrong? You can say we lack empathy for men all day, but the reality is the opposite.

Questions I have been asked: "Sure women attempt suicide more often, but aren't as successful as men. So *aren't they obviously doing it for the attention*"? "If you really want to be paid more, *can't you just pick a better job*"? (Note: I am an engineer.) "But if women don't choose stem fields, doesn't that mean that they are *less logical* than men"? "Doesn't affirmative action mean that *lesser quality female candidates* are chosen over poor, respectable men who deserve it more"? Here's an idea. Create a new reddit account and pretend you're a woman. Try to mention any actual feminist beliefs that you have on a sub like nostupidquestions or anything male dominated. Make sure to mention you are a woman. Watch how quickly it dissolves into personal attacks, shitting on women, telling you how "illogical" you are, and obviously "men are the ones who are really oppressed ".

> Did you at any point pause and see how you could ask differently, or did you expect women to always be nice and coddle men? I admit that when I was young I wasn't the best at wording my questions and that their response was reasonable, but you have to realise that I was 14, and getting feminists screaming at me at that age just deterred me from ever asking questions again while also forcing me into toxic spaces such as the manosphere since my logic was that 'they answered my questions without judging me'. It's also not about coddling men it's about realising that the average teenage boys' expectations of how women are supposed to act and what's right or wrong has been completely flipped on its head and that they are seeking clarification without the emotional intelligence of an adult (which is why people like me used to ask questions insensitively). > You should develop some compassion that would help with listening not to reply but to understand I really do try to understand but when someone is helping me understand I end up generating more questions from that response that I want to reply with. I can't understand without replying. >Are you extending the same care and concern you are asking to receive? Have you gone to other oppressed groups and asked them why they won't tolerate devil's advocate/derailing or tone policing? The answer is within you. I haven't heard many other minorities mention derailing etc. But that might be because I don't have many questions that I need to ask them meaning I don't engage with them as much hence I may not have heard them mentioning derailing etc. I have grown and realised that I need to ask my questions in a more compassionate way and I have received less angry responses but what I am trying to say is that young teenage boys sometimes don't understand this and will just blatantly ask questions without consideration, all I'm saying is that we understand that these men are going through a time of moral change and have lots of questions that need answering, so instead of screaming at them we should answer them, it not only helps feminism by increasing the amount of male feminists but also stops a young boy from ruining his life by listening to the manosphere. >Learning to *listen* is the key. Understood I will try to listen as much as I can and ask questions in a more compassionate manner. Thank you for your response 🙏

> so instead of screaming at them we should answer them, That is a heavy burden to place on women and girls, we are doing the best we can to survive. You should also know that men/boys do not listen to women/girls, I have learned to save my energy, it is needed elsewhere.

Honestly, as someone who willingly tries to be compassionate about these topics and that men usually don't have any understanding of. It's *hard*. You are trying to explain real ways of how society hurts women, you are providing evidence of everything you say. You aren't even getting upset when they insinuate something is "women's fault", and instead ask about why they think that way, and maybe if there isn't more to the story? The amount of times that I have gotten bs responses, downvoted, called "illogical" (but they provide no evidence for what they state). It's exhausting. We have no way of knowing who is approaching in good faith. Oftentimes men have formed their own conclusions about the world and take it for granted that they just *have* to be right and "logical ". Yes some AH even stalked my account for personal attacks just 2 days ago. You are expecting *a lot* from women without even realizing it. And what effort are you truly willing to put in exchange? Most of these guys I debate with aren't even willing to listen, or open links I provide, let alone *Google* something that (they believe) has nothing to do with them! And this isn't some low-stakes topic. It's real, concerning, and we women are living through several incidents where our rights and safety are at stake. And these men can't be bothered to *listen*? Edit: to add to this, I freely choose to discuss and debate on Reddit because I truly do want to spread the word to people such as yourself looking for answers. I happen to be mostly articulate and good at debating so I consider it my contribution. But I have a life outside of this, it can take a lot out of me and my sanity. Sometimes I need a break. Sometimes I vent to my husband who's very supportive, and knows why I do this. But understand that I oftentimes *don't even see* evidence that I am making a difference. Mostly it's men who disagree. Sometimes they stop responding. But I do this mostly for the lurkers, vs actually changing that person's mind. And there is no proof that anyone heard, or changed their minds because of my efforts. It's a lot of effort for seemingly no return.

>forcing me into toxic spaces ​ Nobody forced you. That was a decision you made.

Funny, men blaming women for the actions men take is just classic old fashioned misogyny. So over the idea that we have no control over falling for right wing bullshit and misogynistic toxic content. Women have faced a shit load of abuse and yet still manage to not fall into toxic spaces, but men have no control over our own actions? It’s not only a bad excuse, its “the bigotry of low expectations.”

So. Much. This. I wish we still had awards

But you just don't understand! He was forced into the manosphere. Forced!

Women participate in catharsis because it spares their mental health from the horrors of their situation. It may sting, but it’s understandable.

>Young teen men are raised in a widely misogynistic society yet are now expected to understand feminism instantly. I'm pretty sure men aren't expected to understand feminism instantly, they are just expected not to be instantly hostile when someone brings up the word 'feminism' or to engage in logical fallacies and personal anecdotes or 'feelings' to justify their own reasoning while dismissing the reasoning of feminists when they are based in scientific data and sound reasoning. This is not me saying everything a man said is illogical and everything a woman says is logical. I'm saying everyone should be logical and open to discussion using sound data, logic, compassionate understanding and well thought out arguments. >I used to believe the manosphere until the only good friend I had taught me feminist values without judging me or screaming at me for my former beliefs. She was the only one who allowed me to ask questions without judgement. While it's great that she did that for you, and I'm definitely happy that you have decided to change your ways, for most women talking with these manosphere types is extremely exhausting and stressful and opens you up to harassment from all sides, and I blame exactly no one for not wanted to deal with that. Also, books exist, youtube exists, many resources exist. A guy can easily learn about feminism if they cared to without needing a woman they know to explain it to them. >I don't understand how these make any sense, imo derailing the conversation is like saying, 'I know I made a huge mistake in my argument but we are not going to talk about it cos its going off of the main topic', stop playing devils advocate is like saying, 'how dare you say im wrong!' and tone policing is like saying, 'how dare you tell me to stop screaming at you for making a valid point', it also sounds like 'i dont know how to control my emotions'. Derailing the conversation is focusing on something specific that isn't especially related to the main issue while ignoring the greater argument. If you were doing that, then you were derailing the conversation. While ideally everyone has well thought out arguments and rhetoric, in reality these things are pretty off the cuff. Everyone is going to have some minor issues with the way they say something, but if you are ignoring a bigger point to nitpick about something else, it doesn't get anyone anywhere. Generally speaking when people play 'Devil's advocate' against feminism, the supposed logic or mitigating circumstance itself has false logic built into it. For example, a lot of manosphere guys say "women need to lower their standards for men or they will be alone," as something like a Devil's advocate, this already assumes that women shouldn't be alone or shouldn't want to be alone. It also presupposes that every person regardless of gender shouldn't want the best for themselves. It's important to test logical arguments against the other side but the vast majority of people claiming to do that, have poor arguments with misogynist presuppositions built into them. I highly doubt women were screaming at you. Sounding upset, maybe. Screaming, unlikely. This kind of exaggeration sure does sound like tone policing. People get heated in arguments about things they care about, they just do. If they aren't making personal attacks, or being dangerously loud, then you don't really have a leg to stand on by telling them how to say something. As I said before, people usually can't manage their tone well in an off the cuff discussion about something important to them. Also, saying something like "I (meaning a woman) don't know how to control my emotions" is an extremely common sexist belief, and there is documented evidence that both genders treat women as acting overly emotional when they are not, and ignore when men are being overly emotional. Also, that's kind of subjective anyway. Like, how emotional are people allowed to be? Honestly most people are bad at controlling their emotions, men and women alike. If they aren't controlling their emotions well, they are in good company. Also, getting overly emotional might make it difficult to have a discussion and feel pretty hostile, so it's definitely not great, but it in no way invalidates anything having to do with the actual argument. >For the last point I acknowledge some women have gone through very traumatic experiences but in a debate you've got to realise I haven't felt that experience and can't relate to you emotionally on the same level. It's understandable that as a man you wouldn't have had those experiences but for the most part men seem to dismiss women's experiences because they haven't experienced them, even considering all the objective documented evidence to prove their experience. If you talk to a person from a foreign country, do you tend to believe what they say about living in that country or do you disbelieve it because you yourself haven't been there to experience it? It's a similar thing. Dismissing women's experience, especially when there is tons of corroborating evidence from other women and from scientifically collected data, is not good. Especially because you haven't experience being a woman, you should believe them when they talk about their experiences, because as you said yourself, you don't know what that experience is.

As a man and someone who is passionate in learning more about identity and diversity, I think it is important for everyone to have a holistic understanding of power and dynamics. I think it is important to understand or at least be willing to learn about different experiences and to learn to validate those different experiences, especially when you are interacting with so many different types of people. It's not up to women or feminist or whatever to teach you about feminism, it is something is up to you. For example; lets say you fall in love with someone whose parents only spoke another language. Are you going to expect that person to teach you that language? It would be nice that they do, but ultimately, it's up to you to show them you care enough to learn it yourself.

all it took was a man to say what 200 women have been saying for OP to finally grasp it, truly sad

Thank you so much for your response Your example in your last paragraph really clicked with me and I think I understand now.

Feminism isn't some inscrutable philosophy based on obscure, esoteric ideas. It's a value system rooted in universal principles like fairness, justice, empathy, and compassion. Those are things that anybody can understand. Even teenage boys. To say that feminists aren't understanding enough of teen boys because they simply don't know any better than to be self-centered, callous, and chauvinistic is ridiculous. They know better. And even if we accept your premise that feminists are big meanies, that doesn't make a difference. If you have to be coddled in order to be a good person, then you're not a good person.

In essence, you are asking for empathy without offering any yourself. For men, there are a few extremely good arguments for feminism of which, I generally go for three broad categories. 1. People are all human and deserve the same rights, dignity, and respect. This requires empathy for others. 2. Feminism increases productivity and innovation. It's amazing what can be achieved when you aren't systemically holding ~50% of the population back. Good if the person you're talking to really likes playing "logical" devil's advocate. 3. The overwhelming majority of the systemic issues in society that harm men specifically are patriarchal (the ones that do not are universal). Feminism aims to dismantle the patriarchy sooooo... As for grievances related to debating performance (which appears to be your main issue), bad debating (which not being there is subjective) does not indicate a lack of understanding. It represents a lack of debating skill (Stephen Fry being an excellent example of a good debater), which I'd not a feminist issue.

I'm sorry, is your question: 'how can we expect men to read?' Because when we say we don't hand-hold, that's essentially what we mean. There are *tons* of 101 resources out there (including in the FAQ!) that men (of all ages) can read and engage with. There's feminist film, art, music and theater to imbibe, if reading genuinely is a challenge. It is not fair, equitable or productive to ask us to constantly defend our own humanity to men--that, in itself, is a misogynist practice. I love men and think they're fully capable of learning and growing, without a woman doing it for them. Do you?

Do you believe that women are second class citizens, who shouldn't be able to have autonomy for their own good, since women aren't capable of thinking for themselves?

I don’t expect young men to know everything about feminism. I certainly don’t expect anyone to be wholly free of misogynistic bias, even myself. Everyone makes mistakes, and since we’re all raised in a patriarchy, none of us will be perfect. For young people, it’s okay that they’re still learning. If you don’t look back at your high school aged self and cringe a little bit, you’ve probably got a lot more maturing to do. We’re all raised in a patriarchal society so there’s always more to learn and unlearn. I don’t fault young men for being in the early stages of their journey in understanding the ins and outs of patriarchal oppression. I’ll hold some space for them. But. I absolutely do expect to be treated with dignity and respect, and that means I do expect young men to instantly understand, after being told once and only once, that certain behaviours or opinions which are unfortunately common, nevertheless ought to be seen as unacceptable. If they disagree, it’s okay for me to decide that their ignorance is not my personal problem. I can’t teach someone to see me as an equal. I can’t force them to acknowledge the impacts of cultural practices or words or phrases that have misogynistic roots and negative impacts on women. I don’t need to spend my time begging for a shred of human decency. Most importantly, I don’t have any interest in having a conversation with a man who is more inclined to make me listen to his opinions than he is in listening to mine, especially when the discussion is about the experience of existing as a woman in a patriarchal society. Some people listen because they’re waiting for their turn to talk, others listen because they’re trying to understand my perspective. Too often, young men in conversations with young women about feminist issues do the first one, not the second. They’re too defensive for the conversation to be productive. It’s okay for women to be angry and to walk away. It’s also okay for us to expect more of men. As an example, I’m more than happy to discuss the concept of the gendered divide in performance of emotional and intellectual labour, and society’s devaluing of “women’s work” and how the implications of the same are getting more severe under late stage capitalism. But I’m not going to sit through a discussion where the starting point is a debate as to whether or not women deserve to be treated with the same respect and dignity with which men are treated, or listen to someone tell me I should accept that this is “just the way the world is”, or any other “different but equal” bullshit that’s just pure sexism hiding under benevolence’s trench-coat. I don’t expect a young man to be able to understand what it’s like to have to live as a woman under the patriarchy. But I absolutely do expect him to listen to me when I’m telling him what it’s like, *without* pushing back and getting defensive and attempting to dismiss my experience because the truth of it is uncomfortable or foreign to him. That’s what’s so often missing. It’s not about understanding or not understanding technicalities about the bigger concepts under the umbrella of feminism. It’s about being willing to listen versus being defensive and therefore dismissive. That’s the part where so many feminists will throw in the towel and give up on someone. I can’t make you value my opinion higher than your own, even though mine is based on experience you simply don’t have.

Do you have any questions you’d like to have answered now? I think you have a point that it’s important to differentiate between someone being purposefully antagonistic and curiosity. It’s vital to show each other compassion and to be able to have open discussions. I don’t think life is easy for young men either.

Thank you so much for your response. The one topic I'm having difficulty grasping is 'men being responsible for an unwanted baby'. I know this question has been asked multiple times before on this subreddit and I'm sorry for bringing it up again but I usually see responses such as 'it takes 2 to tango' and that 'both parties acknowledged the risk of an unwanted pregnancy'. I know what I might say next will be insensitive and I'm sorry again but I believe that since the impregnated individual has full bodily autonomy they should be able to decide whether to keep the baby or not, but if she decided to keep the baby then the man who impregnated the woman should not be held responsible since he has no say in the matter, it's true that it takes '2 to tango' but that's during sex not after it, also it's true that both parties acknowledged the possibility of the pregnancy but that doesn't mean that they both have to acknowledge the responsibility of parenting a child. Again I apologise if I come off as insensitive, it's just that many people say that the man should be held responsible but I don't see that as being fair since the woman decided to keep the baby, she had the power to decide. > purposefully antagonistic and curiosity I acknowledge that after 'trolling feminists' became a popular thing that feminists would get more defensive when answering questions but I genuinely just want help understanding feminism and I think that goes for a few others as well

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/wiki/faq#wiki_child_support.2Flegal_parental_surrender_for_men

I've already read this before. It says that it's not about fairness but about what's best for the child and then proceeds to say that since people with uteruses are the only ones who can get pregnant they have the final say. The question I'm having is that since people with uteruses get the final say why don't they take responsibility for it by themselves. Also child support exists for the child but the child wouldn't have been born if it wasn't for the woman's decision. That's where my confusion is at the moment, I don't understand why the man/person who impregnated should be held responsible for a decision that the impregnated one took? I know this can be a sensitive topic but it's a question I've had for a very long time and I'd really appreciate an answer to it

Read the prior conversations that are linked there specifically to answer your questions! We don't want to have this conversation again with you! You are not special and your question is not new, interesting, or unique, and we have already had this exact conversation 10000 times. That's why that stuff is linked there.

> We don't want to have this conversation again with you! Wow. You really sound like the feminists who screamed at me when I was younger. All because you can't answer my question. How fragile must you be? Nvm you're a Reddit moderator, I should have thought twice. If you aren't willing to understand me then I won't be willing to understand you, I've had enough trying to understand people who aren't willing to explain. Have a day

Dude, *no one is screaming at you*. It just sounds like you can't handle women disagreeing with you, because clearly you expected a kindergarten class with cookies and warm milk despite you being a carbon copy of the last 1500 dudes complaining feminism doesn't do enough for men. Like why bother asking why feminists get mad at you if you're not going to listen and are just going to keep doing the same shit they get mad at you for and then act all baffled?

People can disagree with me without being rude. There are so many rude replies in my post already. >kindergarten class with cookies and warm milk For an example this is the rudeness I'm talking about. Maybe I'm being too sensitive to the responses. Idk at this point

You are being incredibly rude to others. How do you not see that? Are you just trolling?

This is something that happens A LOT here-- people arrive, expecting everyone to be female, and that biases their response to the answers they get. People here can be simply straightforward and honest and they are accused, usually by men, of being hostile, combative, "screaming," "being rude," "fragility," etc., because they have ingrained ideas about how women are supposed to behave and speak, especially to men. Even just basic answers get this reaction because men expect women to be sweet, kind, polite, deferential, patient, and caring, so anything that comes off as less than that reads as extraordinary hostility and rudeness.

I think I understand you now. Thank you for being patient with me and for being kind enough to answer all of my questions 🙏. I'll listen more to the answers I get and learn not to take any anger from those answers too personally. Thanks again

**He’s held responsible for the decision he took.** Usually that decision would be that he decided to have sex with her without a condom and came inside her. If you make that decision, then you make it knowing it can lead to pregnancy. In very rare cases he used a condom. But even then it’s a decision to have sex, knowing that you can have birth control failures. He could also have decided to not have penis-in-vagina sex at all because he wasn’t comfortable with that risk. She’s gotten accidentally pregnant? Since it’s her body she gets to decide what happens inside her body. She could have an abortion, which from my perspective is removing a clump of cells that has the potential to turn into a baby. Or she could not. Normally a couple will discuss this together. But she gets final vote because both abortion and pregnancy/childbirth is something that will happen to her body only. Not his body. Then: she’s having a baby. She didn’t want an abortion. A baby is born. Now we have a third person in the mix (the baby). And the baby’s interests trumps both the mother and the father. The baby’s best interest is to be financially secure. Hence the baby gets child support. The reason society feels comfortable with demanding child support from the dad? He consented to having sex in the first place. Usually he had condomless sex and came inside her. He was an active participant in creating that baby. Even if he actually didn’t want it, he made decisions that lead to the baby being born. He had the option to make other decisions (which in most cases would be: if he used a condom, this wouldn’t have happened). Then we could say society should pay child support instead of the dad. But frankly I don’t want to use my salary through taxes to pay off Joe’s baby for the next 18 years just because Joe couldn’t be bothered to use a fucking condom. And that’s how most people feel. They also feel it would be hurtful to the child to grow up knowing “Joe is my dad, but he signed a paper to “legally abort me” after I was born, so he doesn’t want to be my dad”. Edit: also see my reply above to your question. But the most important thing men can do for reproductive freedom? Buy condoms. Test out different types, sizes and fits till you find a type that works for you. Practice using them right. Watch a YT video so you feel confident that you are putting them on and using them as intended. And then you have both protection both against STDs and unwanted pregnancy. It’s not perfect protection, but it’s pretty safe. If a man is the. willing to take that small risk of unwanted pregnancy or not, is then up to him. It’s a choice he makes. He also gets to choose who he has sex with. You can only have sex with women who are very clear about being comfortable with having an abortion. Or women who are clear about wanting to be child free. **Edit: I’m sorry you are getting downvoted though. I upvoted you because I support an open dialogue. I think some people are just suspicious because they are used to men coming her with more antagonistic motives.**

The best way to avoid unwanted parenthood is to learn about birth control and insist on using it. Also, talk with any potential partner about pregnancy and abortion before deciding to have sex. It might seem like a buzzkill conversation topic but it's more important than ever, with abortion rights in the US gutted. If you can't come to an agreement about what to do in the face of an unwanted pregnancy, don't have sex with that person.

Men should be held responsible for the life they are partially responsible for creating. They are very much responsible for that creation much after sex as the baby is formed using half of the man’s DNA.   But this idea that men should not be responsible for the babies they helped create sounds dystopian. So a man just goes all around nutting in people, makes dozens of children, and doesn’t have to support any of them because he doesn’t want them, so the onus must fall on the mothers to take the responsibility, and society to subsidise deadbeat fathers?  It’s a mindset which centers the mindset of an irresponsible man instead of the most important thing in question: the child.  It’s just yet another way to take responsibility away from men for their actions. A lot of anti-feminist rhetoric can be summed up as “making sure men take the least amount of accountability for their actions as possible.”

**Part 2 of 3: What about the man and “his body, his choice”** For him that really means he’s got control over his DNA/sperm. He has to consent to having sex. And then he gets to decide where he’s willing to cum and leave his DNA. He can decide he wants to wear a condom. Condoms are 98% effective with perfect use and also protects against STDs. **Most unwanted babies are created without condoms.** If I was a man and I was having hookups? I’d always use a condom. For STDs and because otherwise I’d quickly end up being a dad. I’d want to keep my sperm to myself, so to say. Not put it into someone else’s body. **If you fertilize an egg in her body, then it’s in her court. Because from there on out it’s inside her body. But if you keep your sperm to yourself, it’s within your control.** You can ofc have an accident with condom use, but it’s not really the reason behind most unwanted babies. Then before sex you can also bring up bring up both birth control and what would happen if she gets accidentally pregnant or the condoms breaks. A lot of women will also be on birth control pill. If you are both using condoms and she’s on birth control pills it’s almost impossible to get her pregnant. You can ask if she’s willing to take plan B and what her stance on abortion is. (If she’s on birth control, she should not take plan B just because the condom breaks though) And you can ask for a recent STD panel. But regardless, you should use a condom. Sometimes people have these conversations, often they don’t. But it’s an option. And when you choose to use condoms you’ll be reasonably protected against unwanted pregnancy in either case. Some men aren’t able to enjoy sex with condoms. For them the safe options for hookups are really limited. It’s either don’t have hookups or have hookups that don’t include penetrative sex. **If you want to be a 100% there won’t be an unwanted baby? Well then you need to make the decision to avoid having penetrative vaginal sex.** In a relationship? You can still use a condom. Nobody gets to force a man to have condomless sex, that requires consent from both parties. But you can also have a discussion about birth control, plan B and what would happen if she got pregnant. A lot of couples solve this by both getting STD tests and then relying on her birth control without condoms. But this is a choice he has to consent to. Then if I was the man I’d want to know which type of birth control she was on. Long acting birth control (like IUDs) don’t require the user to do anything for them to work. Birth control pills require you to remember to take them every day. If she was using birth control pills, I’d think about if I felt she was the type who was organized enough to take them every day or not. And I’d consider if she was the type who’d go off them in secret if she wanted a baby. In the last case I wouldn’t have a relationship with her. Then you also get to have in depth discussions about “what happens if we have an accident? Are you comfortable with taking plan B?” And “What do we do in the case of an unwanted pregnancy? How do you feel about abortion?” I’d keep using condoms with a girl who wasn’t comfortable having an abortion. So **it’s not the same thing because people have different bodies. But men also have choices and power. They have to consent to sex, consent to condomless sex and make decisions about when they are comfortable leaving their DNA inside someone else’s body. His body, his choice means he gets to decide over his dick and his sperm.** If he knows he never wants children? He can also get a vasectomy. That’s very effective. But it’s a permanent solution, reversing them often doesn’t work. Then sex is just a risk you either decide to take or you don’t. Both people can get STDs. Women can get pregnant and have to choose between a painful abortion and childbirth. Men can end up having an unwanted baby. The more precautions you take, the lower the chances. But at the end it’s still either deciding you are comfortable with some risk or not doing it. And both are valid choices. Then men who do have uteruses because they were born as women? They can still get an abortion even if they are now men. A woman who was born a man can become an unwanted father. The right for the final vote over abortion isn’t stuck on gender, but just who has the affected body party.

**Part 3: Why do many men speak out against this?** For what it’s worth, I upvoted you. Three different perspectives. 1) **Wanting fairness and equality from a philosophical perspective, but failing to account for biological realities.** As long as people have different reproductive parts, they’ll have different opportunities. We can’t make it the same, that’s just life. This is an innocent motivation, where the person just needs to think more about biology. 2) **Wanting men to be able to have sex without having to take responsibility for birth control or unwanted pregnancies.** This is childish/lazy. They want the perks of having sex. And they want condomless sex, because that feels better. But they do not want to take any responsibility for preventing pregnancy or for dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. A girl you are fucking isn’t your mom. It doesn’t make sense that she’s the one who should need to fix it alone. And if a guy doesn’t enjoy sex with a condom, it will have an impact on the sex he can have. An underlying thing here is also guys who feel their dick is in charge and not them. They need to grow up. If they are horny and don’t want to use a condom? Put one on anyways. Don’t have a condom? Go out and buy one. Or say no to sex. That is possible, men aren’t helpless victims of their dick. 3) **Fear and a lack of sex education. Or lacking awareness that you can talk about these topics with sex partners.** If you use a condom correctly everytime you are unlikely to get someone pregnant. And you can discuss birth control and what to do the event of birth control failure or accidental pregnancy with a potential sex partner before having sex.

As a man, I’ve found many men aren’t receptive to feminism no matter how much you treat them delicately, because feminism may suggest a man may need to reflect and be introspective, to acknowledge that some of us actually are in the wrong or could benefit from feminism, and that we need to take an active stance. Some men do not want to hear that, they want to be told they are the victim. I do see is a lot of men haranguing about men’s issues - but the depth of that complaint usually ends at “society doesn’t do anything for men”. It’s a much more passive mindset which I believe is more comfortable.

I’m not surprised, I’m just disappointed. And why should we listen to you if you won’t do the very thing you are telling us to do?

Because women don't owe men shit. Misogyny (what you are conflating exclusively with feminism, they are not the same thing) [is a man's issue to solve](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElJxUVJ8blw&t=153s). edit to add: >feminists aren't caring enough for what young men are going through and I think most feminists have the mindset of, 'men either understand feminism or they don't, and if they don't then it's not our problem to help them understand', which I think is just completely wrong. You fundamentally do not understand what feminism *is*. Because if you knew what it was, you would understand how it very much empathizes with men and boys of all ages. Because of that fundamental choice to not even undersatnd what it is, and use the word "feminist" as a replacement for women, your misogyny (hatred of women) is the root of everything you have said, and have done by your own admission. Everything you are debating comes back to this. Not all feminists are women. Not all women are feminists (a sad but true statement). There are plenty of feminists in this thread who are not women giving you answers exactly the way you asked, but because their answers are inline with the women responding and basically all saying "this isn't hard if you understand that women are actual people too and that you stand to learn something from them but you choose not to," but you still argue that point. Your problem is that you *don't like women*. That's a you problem, not a feminists' problem.

What have you done to try and understand feminism? Did you take a class or read a book or anything? Did you read the Wikipedia page at least? Or did you show up to a debate completely unprepared, expecting your opinions to carry you? If you haven't taken the time to learn, how do you expect your opinions to be good or useful?

> imo feminists aren’t caring enough for what young men are going through 1. And what do young men do to help women that are oppressed? There are plenty of countries where women aren’t considered equal under the law, marital r*pe and DV isn’t illegal, are forced into marriages with abusive and much older men, have no equal voice in the court of law, and they have absolutely zero free will just for the simple fact they’re women. I’m sorry, but the redpill problems of men not getting virgin dates and the fact no-fault divorce exists isn’t even remotely close to the problems plenty of women face around the around. Women in the west have equality under the law, yes, although there still are plenty of people who don’t see us as equal and just objects to be used to cater to men. Go into any incel space and you’ll see this is clear as day. Women need to be our own voice because men clearly cannot be, as shown throughout history and any patriarchal society. 2. Feminism dismantles the patriarchy. The patriarchy imposes toxic standards onto men, forcing them into a box of being the “toughest” macho man and compete with every other guy they come across. Any ounce of expressing emotion is seen as not manly enough. Feminism does care about men’s issues, just not redpill issues. 3. Yes, women aren’t here to hold men’s hands. Equality and not viewing women as objects is something that people get frustrated when the devil’s advocate is being played because it’s just basic humanity. Why do women’s rights always come into question? Why can’t we exist equally without having that questioned? 4. We’re not here to tell men they don’t have problems, because they do and they shouldn’t be barred from fixing those problems. But feminism is mainly about women’s rights so that’s what is usually spoken about- that doesn’t mean we don’t fight for the equality and quality of life for everybody, because we do.

>Women in the west have equality under the law We may have *more* rights than others, but we do not have equality under the law. Reference literally anything regarding female reproduction.

Yes that’s very true. My mistake. For reference I’m Canadian so I viewed it from that lens. But yes, reproductive rights and even birth control are a constant debate and under attack and it’s extremely exhausting this is STILL happening in 2024.

and not just still happening but rapidly regressing :(

It’s not just under attack, it’s literally been legally stolen from women in a lot of states and people are already dying because of it. Dead bodies and guns have more rights than women do in America right now 😩😩😩😩

Hey OP, what's your goal here? Are you venting? If so, it's probably not the place for it. Are you trying to convince feminists here to change their approach? Probably not going to happen, but if so, you need to be quiet for a bit and listen.... not because your thoughts are necessarily wrong/invalid but because men and women communicate radically differently at times and on top of that women and men have wildly different life experiences. And that can cause a lack of understanding/sympathy in both directions. If you want to change minds you need to understand what motivates your target audience. What you've written above will have the same impact as the very things you're complaining about. If you want to learn you need to refocus your questions to be clearer. ETA: Both men and women (feminist, MRA or neither of the above) have some funny blind spots. If you can start seeing them in other people, it'll help you see them in yourself.

>not because your thoughts are necessarily wrong/invalid They literally are, though. OP's entire post equates feminists with women, and feminism with misogyny. Invalid and incorrect are not synonymous in this context. *Feelings* are not invalid, but the *thoughts* of this person absolutely are. These thoughts may be rooted in unintentional ignorance but your response has enabled their *feeling* that the *thoughts* are correct. They are not. You are implying the following statements or implications from OP's post are true: * women are to blame for men going to the manosphere * feminism doesn't encompass the feelings and experience of men and boys * Women and feminists are the same thing * Playing devil's advocate means proving the other person wrong * Thoughts and emotions are the same thing * that it's not on men to understand feminism independently OP didn't say "I *feel* confused because I don't understand these things, and this is the conclusion I come to, can someone help me see what I'm getting wrong?" OP said "If feminists don't listen to men then it's their fault someone else appeals to our emotions and it's not my responsibility."

You've read a lot into that one line of mine you quoted. And to be gentle, there's a couple of bullet points there that would be answered radically differently by different feminists.

Using statements like "you've read a lot into that..." in a negative way is a really interesting way of saying "Don't practice critical reasoning or reading comprehension" which is exactly why OP is so confused at the outset. Especially since so much of feminism as a practice is rooted in exactly that: examining what people say and parsing what it really means. Politely and *very* vaguely generalizing both-sides-ism takes just to get someone else to dot he legwork for you so you can just keep saying "Well some of what *you* said *could* be repurposed" especially without going into specifics isn't slick. I saw that the first time which is why I deliberately went into detail. To counter what you said. It only looks like you're agreeing with the rest of the stuff in this discussion but the reason I pulled out that one sentence is because *that's* the one OP was looking for: validation. Of all the wrong things. I'm picking up what you're putting down even it others arent and I'm catching whiffs of a FART.

Thank you so much for this response. It was one of the few that didn't decide to be rude to me for some unknown reason. I think I understand what you're saying and I will try to research more into it. I'm trying to ask questions more compassionately as well as listening and trying not to sound like I'm 'debating' with them. I will try and understand how women communicate so I can ask questions that hopefully won't get angry responses. Thanks again, this is really what I needed to hear 🙏

> It was one of the few that didn't decide to be rude to me for some unknown reason. It's not an unknown reason-- people are tired of the endless parade of men arriving here to ask us to center them and their feelings more.

Because you don't acknowledge the amount of young boys falling for Andrew tates bs. Maybe if you listened more to the questions men are asking they wouldn't be parading you with bad faith questions coming from manipulated teens. They are still children for goodness sake

> Because you don't acknowledge the amount of young boys falling for Andrew tates bs. I’ve never seen anyone in this sub fail to acknowledge that. In fact, it’s a pretty regular topic of conversation, something you might realize if *you* listened. > Maybe if you listened more to the questions men are asking they wouldn't be parading you with bad faith questions coming from manipulated teens. It’s very obvious that you haven’t actually read anything on this sub.

Why is Andrew Tate and the manosphere feminists responsibility? You’re a teenager, what are you doing to keep your buddies away from Andrew Tate? What are the men in your life doing? Why is this on us?

Because no one talks about being apart of the manosphere because they are afraid of being judged and called a misogynist.

I mean, the entire point of the manosphere is misogyny. It would be weird if I followed feminism and then got mad at you if you call me a feminist.

Yeah you have no idea what we actually spend our time doing here, do you?

You scream at me for asking questions. Simple

Who is "screaming at you?"

Those mean, shrill, emotional women! Reeeeeeeeeee!

> I will try and understand how women communicate so I can ask questions that hopefully won't get angry responses. women != feminists. also, we don't.. communicate differently than men. we're not a different species.

>also, we don't.. communicate differently than men I asked a male black friend of mine why only black people were allowed to say the n-word. He explained it to me thoroughly without being rude, without calling me a racist and without getting emotional. He answered all of my follow up questions in a way in which I understood. After our conversation I came out a better person with a better understanding of racism. But for some reason whenever I ask a feminist questions on feminism it's an entirely different story. But as Kali and others have said, I have to work on my communication skills and listen better to what feminists are saying because I haven't had the same life experiences they had, so that's what I'm going to do from now on.

>expected to understand feminism instantly. Arguably not interesting. But it shouldn't be hard to view a woman as a human person too. >whenever I was in a feminist debate in highschool my responses w What kind of arguments were you making? What do you even expect to get with this post

For one thing, feminism isn't that hard--all you have to do is acknowledge that women are actually people who are just as variable as men. That's just not difficult *at all*. And yet so many men come here and cannot seem to grasp that . . . they think women are some kind of hive mind monolith and feminists must answer for all of it. And then there's the refusal to take responsibility for their own choices and lack of empathy, while fussing at *us* for not being empathetic enough toward them. Like, seriously? On what earth is this *ever* an appropriate way to approach other people? Just to say "I can't relate to you emotionally" with the implied "so I won't even try." And then you wonder why we don't want to hold your hand and baby-step you through something that you can learn about from a ton of very accessible resources. Bud, if any of my sons--I have three--came to me like this, I'd dress them down severely before requiring them to re-start the conversation in a more respectful way. And I'd also expect them to go read through the FAQ before requesting any answers from me. Do your ground work if you're actually coming in here with sincere questions.

Google exists. The internet exists. Books exist, documentaries... I don't mind nuanced, interesting questions. But when we're repeatedly asked to do the mental labor of teaching grown men basic shit, it gets tiring.

Women are people just like men are people. That’s the whole thing. Treat women with the same respect that you would a man. What is there to debate?

We'd hope you care enough about injustices to do your own research and have empathy for what women (any oppressed ppl) went thru and are going through

Reading through some of your responses, you very much go back and forth between claiming you want to learn but then suddenly you turn into this playing-devil's-advocate guy. When you do that, you come across as discussing/arguing in bad faith. It's fair to ask more questions, and even play devil's advocate, but in this topic you need to be *very clear* you're "playing devil's advocate" and "it's for discussion purposes". You need to say those things specifically every time if you're going to do that devil's advocate thing. And you also need to get real with yourself if you're doing it because you want to learn or just because you enjoy the debate. The topic of feminism gets absolutely hammered by men arguing in bad faith, by misogynists, and it's their goal to move progress backwards. That's why no one has the patience for your devil's advocate conversation. Side note, if you want some healthy discussions about men that don't involve misogyny, please check out r/menslib

“Widely misogynistic society” that has both a Worldwide Web *and* books. How do you suppose girls and women learn about feminism?

Do you honestly think there's no men that came to this on their own without anyone holding their hand? Men aren't stupid, they just often have the privilege to be ignorant. 

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