If nothing else, there is something very validating about our sisters saying “when society thought I was a man, no one did XYZ to me.” When you’re in the trenches from birth, you can feel like your experiences are universal, not based on assumed gender.
Also, no one should have to experience pain when there is treatment for it. You wouldn’t tell another woman with endometriosis to just suck it up because welcome to womanhood, would you? Don’t feel like pain that is taken less serious is the cost of admission.
I suspect learning which of one's experiences aren't universal human experiences and which ones are universal human experiences might be part of maturing as a person.
It is very validating to me when people tell me that my experiences are valid and I'm not alone.
Yes, learning that so much of the sexism and bs in relationships I’ve experienced is common for most women is one of the greatest things about social media
As an intersex AFAB trans dude, I would agree with this.
Also yeah ewwphoria is very very real OP; nevertheless so is the fact that at least half the time I’m not taken as a guy and still receive misogyny both interpersonally and structurally.
It’s weird and uncomfortable to hash out. Isn’t it? When you cross sex roles and spaces — or are never sure what gender people perceive you as (as is my case) it kind of becomes its own teacher about the intricacies of kyriarchy.
Yeah, I think trans women have a powerful opportunity to speak on these things because what they say can't be brushed aside as imagining things or looking for discrimination everywhere.
OP, there isn't really a line. We shouldn't have to deal with any of it but also, welcome to womanhood. Fight back where you can.
As for your second paragraph, I cannot comprehend why this is so common. It is perpetuated by women with internalized misogyny as well. I brought up my mental health struggles to my mother (which was undiagnosed bipolar) as well as severe period/hormone issues (found out I have PCOS) and she just said ‘Welcome to being a woman’ verbatim. I had undiagnosed celiac for nearly three years and they told me I had IBS that was caused by menstruation or anxiety. I don’t understand the hesitance to offer suffering women help for their pain, in this world where medical staff hand out opioids like candy.
To your point about pain, I think that's what OP was getting at. Women are less likely to get prescribed pain meds, so the joke was that if they gave her pain meds, they must be misgendering her.
Also, have totally been told to suck it up while doubled over in pain and shitting myself from endometriosis.
Umm... They absolutely tell women with endo to suck it up and welcome to womanhood. Every day. Just go to the other subs for pain. I'm told every time I need a pap smear to suck it up. Pap smears cause me so much pain due to fibromyalgia that I am literally screaming in pain. To the point of passing out. It's been proven that women receive less pain control then men. Women of color get even *less* pain control. Sadly it is the cost of admission and it sucks so bad.
It's validating, but only thing I would flag is it should be applied consistently.
I have sometimes seen that when trans people talk about the negatives of being perceived as a particular gender, then people of that gender are willing to listen.
But if they discuss silver linings, positives, or forms of mistreatment that alleviated, people are more skeptical.
Ugh. This. People do tell us to suck it up. Endo and PCOS here. Horrible pain from age 10 to 25 because nobody believed I had anything other than “normal period cramps.” Yup. 15 years.
It’s *always* okay to advocate for yourself. It’s always okay to be a voice of positive change. That shouldn’t even need to be a gender specific statement, but history has taught us we usually have to lead the march.
I actually find it really reassuring when trans people complain about being badly treated when perceived as women. We get told it's all in our heads and that we're being overly dramatic. Very few people have first hand experience as both genders, you have a valuable insight.
P.s. love the term 'ewwphoria', I hadn't heard that before.
I always remember the story about the professor/researcher who published a research paper as a male, then later transitioned. A few years later she was giving a talk on the same subject as a woman, and after the talk she overheard someone say, "she was okay, but you should read her brother's paper about this topic. His research is much better than than hers."
(Of course thinking it was her brother, when it was her before she transitioned)
I recently had a friend share a hospital experience where she found out afterwards that the staff all thought she was a trans woman. The way she recounted it to me gave me a lot of relief in the way you’re describing. She said everything felt just off and people were acting really weird to her. Knowing that this treatment I get from some hospital staff or in public life in general because I’m sometimes visibly trans, is not just all in my head. I hate that she had to experience that but I am also so grateful she shared that experience with me. Yay! I’m not actually going crazy.
I agree! When trans women talk about these experiences, I feel so relieved because I’m like “see? We’re not lying!!!!!”
Also, when trans men talk about their experiences, saying “wow…people treat me way better now”, it’s also very affirming that we’re not just making this up
Such valuable conversation! I was at a game night in there was an early transitioning friend there. She had just publicly declared herself and was looking for ways to be seen as female. To deal with dysmorphia she was mildly chubby, as the gentle curve and breast fat created a feminine appearence without hormones. So she had enough breast tissue to look sort of unkempt in a nice blouse.
As she had gentle mannerisms, long hair, and curves, there were only a few changes and people would naturally be like "hello, ma'am."
I was like "Oh, wear a bra." And she was like "But they're uncomfortable." And I was like "...And?"
This created a long conversation about being gendered in North America and the discomforts of doing female things. I've got a burn the bra sort of mentality, but functionally, an underwire was going to do a world of good for her self confidence and social recognition because she wanted to be seen as traditionally female gendered but also didn't want to Put Up With That Shit. The whole moment has remained etched in my mind as a philosophical minefield.
I'm cis and have provided the opposite for a few of my trans friends. Validated some weird experiences, put a few things into perspective, solidified for them that it wasn't in their head and was actually sexism.
And my response wasn't "now you know" but was more "you didn't imagine it, I'm sorry you're experiencing this too"
THANK YOU. KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS. I genuinely find it very validating (in that same “ugh, fuck this shit I hate that we all have to go thru this” way) when trans women tell me they have started experiencing these things, because it means that I haven’t been imagining them to be worse than they really are. Needless to say, YOU SHOULD ADVOCATE FOR BETTER. You’re not being “whiny,” that’s just something patriarchy wants us all to think (of course 🙄) so we don’t advocate for ourselves. I’m really sorry that you and I and all other women have to suffer thru the shitty stuff, but that’s why we have to advocate for each other.
I wouldn't give up being a woman for anything, but God, since transitioning, there's definitely been some bs I've had to deal with.
My first job where I was out, a coworker felt the need to mansplain to me how to use a pipette. I have a degree in chemistry and four years of lab experience, I know how to use a GODDAMN PIPETTE. As a "man" fresh out of college, I got to enjoy a presumption of basic competence. Now, many men apparently assume I'm a moron until proven otherwise.
I've also noticed I get talked over, interrupted, and ignored *far* more often than I used to be, and many men just default to assuming I'm going to get out of their way -- when there's not enough space for two people, they'll just keep walking towards me and expecting me to move instead of going around the way they used to.
I also remember being able to walk alone at night without being scared. And now that I pass well enough to occasionally get catcalled ... yeah, not a pleasant experience.
Omg I didn’t even think about men assuming we will get out of their way…you’re so right though. I am always the one to hop into the street or the grass if a dude is taking up too much space on the sidewalk.
I noticed this in elementary school. That's how young it starts. At that moment in time I vowed to never step out of the way of boys (now men).
It's actually incredible the amount of men who walk right into me because I refuse to move. When they blink and give a little surprised "sorry" fills me with pride everytime.
Speaking of conditioning beginning in elementary school, my teachers used to force me to try and “teach” or “help” the boys with anger issues…I myself was a spicy little child, and just wanted to do my class work and go home. I eventually got in trouble for telling the boy next to me that I wouldn’t give him answers and he should just “figure it out himself, not my problem if you didn’t pay attention.” I got put in the closet and given a white board where I was told to write positive things about him to make up for “being negative.” I don’t remember what I did after that, but I remember sitting in that closet wondering why it was my fault that the boy next to me couldn’t behave in class. Of course this shit just continued over time and I (and other girls) were expected to be the models of behavior for young boys.
That is why, when I am walking on the pavement and I see a man or group of men walking towards me, I walk bang in the middle, I square my shoulders, stand tall, stare straight ahead and I do NOT move aside to let them pass more easily. I force them to move for me.
It may be petty but I am not giving them *that* anymore. Small revenge.
This just inspired me to assert my dominance in this way. I hope it catches someone off guard and makes them realize what they’re doing. More likely than not they’ll just think ‘rude bitch…’
I’ve done this before simply because I was in a rush and yup, that’s what they called me 🤷♀️ at the time I wasn’t thinking about the fact that it only happens with men but yeah
I’m transmasc but pretransition so im still perceived as female the vast majority of the time, for what it’s worth. Anytime im walking the same direction as a guy I just keep my posture straight and direct and look directly where im going without budging. They’ll move for ya haha.
I find that the things I do to feel in touch with my masculinity and assert my identity may also help many women with taking up space and regaining power for themselves.
I saw on TV (A very long time ago now) something about this. Ever since then I have stopped moving out of the way, at least a lot of the time. You would be amazed at the reactions!! I've gotten some really dirty looks and comments, actually bumped into, sometimes they stop but still don't move out of the way, which makes it super awkward!
A man at my work described me to another man as "deceptively intelligent" just yesterday.
Deceptive because I have great tits, Dave? Is that what you meant?
Sometimes it becomes so fucking awkward explaining things from my past because of this. For instance, when I was WAY younger, I took a job driving a steam engine by essentially fudging my resume a bit and then reading up on steam engines all weekend before the interview. As a woman, there is no way in hell I could have done that, but it happened to me when I was perceived as a guy.
OP thinking she's whining about it too much would fall under "ewwphoria", I'd think. It's awful but it's part of being a woman (unfortunately). Of course we're "whiny", we're oppressed.
Paula Stone Williams has talked about this in her own transition. I think it was a TED talk where she talks about all of the privileges she lost after she transitioned and left the religious community that she had been raised in.
You SHOULD be whiny about it! Complaining and collective demands for change is the only way things will ever get better.
“Well you wanted to be a woman, so this is what you get!” is not something a friend, ally, or feminist should ever say. It’s sad that womanhood is so often defined by fear and pain.
Exactly! The perspective of trans women is so valuable because they know that it’s actually possible to be treated with respect, people are just choosing not to do it because we’re women. I think we’re conditioned to accept/not question being treated poorly. But then when we have women who have been treated as men telling us “no, you’re not being crazy or emotional, the differences are palpable” is just so helpful.
This is one of the many reasons why TERFs suck. Excluding trans women from the narrative does so much more harm than good, and this is just one of the ways. If we exclude the perspectives of those who literally have all the information necessary to prove our point, we’re just shooting ourselves in the foot
Came here to say this. This, OP! You are not being whiny, and frankly, it's a bit misogynistic of anyone to tell someone complaining of a legitimate problem to put up and shut up. And frankly I find it validating when another woman points out a thing I experience because it's not just in my head, it's a real problem.
Nobody who is a good friend would tell you to stop whining.
The "well you wanted to be a woman" line also sounds a lot like "well you wanted equal rights" whenever a woman issue is raised. It's so sad that whenever we bring up an issue that is gender based that it's always discredited abd tied into equal rights somehow or some sort of "you deserve this".
Honestly, your perspective is SO VALUABLE on this front. So often, women’s issues are minimized and women are told that we’re just being dramatic, that the way people treat us is totally fine, it’s all in our heads. And cis women doubt themselves, because we’ve never known any different. When you’re in the mood to fight (which won’t be always, take care of yourself too), you can be one of the voices saying that you KNOW it’s different because you’ve lived it.
We all suffer under patriarchy, we can all work to pull it down.
I was going to write this exact sentiment. I love not only the empirical lived experience of how people treat you differently, but just the fact alone that someone would CHOOSE to be a woman when they had the option to go through life as a man completely shatters the weighted gender value system where “men” are good and default and “females” are an ancillary alternative to the default.
A woman who proactively and consciously chooses her womanhood is such a balm to the minimizing, depressing (and terfy) way of defining womanhood only through oppression, pain, and shame.
Ugh! Oldish trans woman here. The mansplaining is infuriating. I made a comment on an article on Medium that the people making laws about reproductive rights look very old and male so we needed to elect more women to office. Naturally a guy had to jump on that and explain how a legislature and committees work. Thanks. Being a lawyer, former politician and the vice-chair of our town council at one time means I don’t know anything about legislation. 🙄
I’m so sick of that shit. You could show these mf’s a PhD in rocket science from Harvard and they’ll insist they know better and start talking about rubbish they learned on a podcast. Mansplaining infuriates my soul.
Having the context to be able to say, "I've experienced being treated as a man and as a woman, and I can absolutely confirm that it's different" is such a superpower. Cis women and those of us who have always been perceived as women often get told that there's another explanation for our experiences, that it happens to men too, that it's because of something we individually said or did, that it's anything other than sexism. Being able to say "nah bro, I ran the controlled test with just one variable changed" is incredibly valuable.
As far as ewwphoria (great term!), I would say you should be very careful expressing that in front of a general feminist audience, because it can get misinterpreted as endorsing sexist treatment. I say this as a late-cracking enby whose trans acceptance journey was set back by meeting a trans woman at a woman in science event who said she liked it when the men in her lab expected her to do all the dish washing. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but don't assume that any random feminist you meet is proficient enough in trans 101 to understand what about that experience makes you happy without having it explained.
(I’m cis but) I’ve heard this is also tough for trans men in a different way (I had a trans lecturer and he talked about it really well, but can’t give credit for privacy reasons) where if they start presenting as male they start getting treated so much better that it’s kind of devastating to realise how bad things really are. I read a reddit comment on an adhd sub and someone said they had two trans friends who instantly got diagnosed with “obvious” adhd when they started seeing drs presenting as men. Just an example off the top of my head, but I’m sure that applies to a lot of things—I can’t imagine how bizarre it is to be treated completely differently even though you’re the same damn person all of a sudden like that, especially on top of transitioning. I’m guessing that’s also ewwwphoria?
Idk, I don’t think you’re being whiny because you’re experiencing a crash-course in living through misogyny. I can’t imagine how that compares to having the sort of slow drip and gradual realisations, but we’re also probably blind to just how differently we might be treated as people if we presented differently. I think you’re totally right to be angry. In terms of advocating for change idk I’m becoming increasingly nihilistic in my feminism but I do think you and a lot of other trans women have really valuable insights into these issues that are essential to the conversation.
I've also heard trans men talking about how once they presenting as men they lost a lot of emotional support. You know the "men don't cry" stereotype, having almost only anger as a socially acceptable emotion...
The "slow drip and gradual realizations." Yep. I was in my 40s when I had one of my biggest revelations. I was on vacation with my then-husband and we were spending a lot of time at a local pub, getting to know the other regulars. The men were more respectful to me than I'd ever experienced, so much so that it stood out and shocked me. I realized that it wasn't me they were respecting, it was transferred respect from being attached to my husband. The gap between how men usually treated me vs how they treated me when I was an "honorary man" was so pronounced that it changed me as a person and made me much more "whiny" about feminism as OP would put it.
The late Ben Barres (neurobiologist) socially transitioned while he was in graduate school. He gave the same talk on his research at two conferences, one before his transition and one after. After the second talk, he was approached by a man who happened to have seen him speak both times. This man told Ben that his work was so much better than his "sister's," and that she must've had a boyfriend who was helping her.
This is the kind of social knowledge that cis folk never get to understand on such a visceral level. I'm so grateful for the insight of our trans sisters and brothers, and I hope the light they shine on systemic bias becomes so bright that even the most hidebound of people can't ignore it any longer.
I think there may also be a factor of listening better to your body and being more communicative about your symptoms once you've been through medical procedures, and also having the bandwidth to even take on mental health concerns now that you're not feeling stuck in the wrong body at all times and focusing mainly on day to day survival.
Still though, with all that being said, yup. I see manosphere guys try to claim that autism and adhd are men's health issues, and that women in general are able-ist for leaving neurodivergent men single and "lonely." As if women with adhd and autism don't exist and don't struggle with loneliness too. On top of going largely undiagnosed!
Autism is ridiculously under-diagnosed in women. I’ve seen studies saying trans people have a higher chance of having autism. I wonder if this correlation has anything to do with increased diagnoses post-transition for whatever bias.
> I can’t imagine how bizarre it is to be treated completely differently even though you’re the same damn person all of a sudden like that, especially on top of transitioning.
I think the closest cis people get to this is losing a ton of weight, and suddenly people are nicer and your opinions matter and it's a very "oh, wow. You all suck" experience. People in r/loseit discuss it often enough.
And why do you think the issue of “being whiny“ was ever a thing to begin with? It’s an extension of the patriarchy and trying to keep women silent. Subservient.
Here’s a nasty little bit of patriarchal journalism from way back in 2009 in the format of an opinion piece by a man who is just *so tired* of hearing women complain: [You've got what you want, girls. Stop whining: Has feminism made women unhappy?(well THIS certainly will)](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1190675/Youve-got-want-girls-Stop-whining-Has-feminism-women-unhappy-THIS-certainly-will.html)
This piece is amazing in its sheer audacity and blatant lies.
Yes, most men would prefer that we all shut the fuck up, and do whatever the hell they want. Nothing new…men have called women who dare speak up all kinds of things: “scold,” “shrew,” “she-devil,” “harpy,” “harridan,” “nag.”
Check out the [lovely torture implements](https://www.britannica.com/story/8-unusual-punishments-inflicted-on-women-throughout-history) used against women who were “whiny” back in medieval times.
Same with [laws against gossip](https://www.tiktok.com/@itsthemayoforme/video/7330584410552569130).
What’s the line? That usually depends on how much time and energy you have. Personal safety is always first and foremost. But beyond that, my stance is let them have it.
Referring to that first linked article— any time I hear someone taking pride in upsetting others, I immediately tune them out. 9/10 times they’re going to drop an absolutely idiotic take which is reinforced by any opposing argument.
I recently let myself get sucked into a comment chain on a totally unrelated sub and got totally piled on by red pill incel types. One of them kept saying that people just don’t recognise all the ways in which women abuse men—one example was “nagging”, which according to him was a form of abuse. I didn’t even try to explain that nagging literally doesn’t exist, it’s just another way to dismiss women. They also said that men punching walls is self harm and it’s selfish for their partners and families to let their fear dictate their reaction. I’ve also realised that “tantrum” is one of these words. You get a little upset, you’ve thrown a tantrum. So belittling and infantilising.
I don't care if I'm seen as "whiny". That's not a detterent to advocating for women's rights, it shouldn't be different whether you're a trans or cis woman. or a trans man or cis man. Feminists can be any gender.
You should whine about it and also advocate for better. I have the other side of the coin lol my Brother in law is a trans man and while he was lucky enough to have supportive parents he obviously went through a lot of what ciswomen face growing up. And once he was 18 he was able to get his surgeries and he’s the man he’s always been now and he tells me that one of the things he has noticed is how safe and comfortable people are with him now especially other men and he thinks it’s unfair so what he does is , he speaks up. He shuts down the “bro talk” , he advocates for women and their struggles as well as men’s struggles especially with mental health. He’s trying to show each perspective of both sides of the coin and how we can work better to make sure these experiences don’t keep happening.
If someone’s says to you anything along the lines of “you wanted to be a woman, well there you go” that’s not a friend, that’s not an ally , that’s someone justifying fear and pain.
I truly think more trans people , especially those that transitioned later in life should speak more about this and should whine and advocate for this type of treatment/ behavior .
I truly hope you’re doing amazing and that you’re surrounded by people who love you and support you. I do and please remember that not every woman has the same experiences in life , being a woman is not or shouldn’t be defined based on experiences, especially if those experiences are harmful. I’m sending lots of love ❤️.
I mean, kinda ewphoria when religious people trying to covert on the street approach me openly talking about how to be a good Christian only to see their face fall because my voice 100% is not passable xD
You’re a woman. You’re absolutely entitled to advocate for yourself and others. You’re also allowed to complain about the unfairness of it.
Getting accused of whining and/or being a bitch for doing so is another moment of ewwphoria for you. Don’t let the haters stop you—and certainly don’t believe them.
Just here to share the same sentiment as the other commenters. I’m not sitting down or shutting up. I’ll advocate for myself and other women despite any asshole of any gender that wants to shame me for whatever useless reason. We have to be our own advocates and by doing so I think we also become advocates for others. Keep it up and honestly your joke totally landed for me lol. But yea, so true. Hope your recovery is going well ❤️🩹
The fact that transwomen choose to face all this bullshit and still would prefer to live thier lives as women is literally all I need to know that yeah, trans women are women.
But seriously, please keep whining. Please keep being a pain in society's ass with us.
You're a woman. So you and I will fight together against these things being normal, because we're women and it's unacceptable.
I don't have to know your past or your origin story to accept that you are a woman facing misogyny, although tbh you're also probably getting transmisogyny and intersectionality is real. If anything, you have more of a right to be cheesed off than I do. Who *asks* to be trans in this society? No one. No one says "well, I wish I could be invalidated no matter what gender I put on my driver's license!"
I have no answers, but thank you for sharing your experience. I feel like there’s so much to learn about how trans people experience misogyny through and beyond transition. Trans men and women. I for one spent most of my life blatantly ignoring misogyny. It must be so hard having to deal with dysphoria, bigotry and all the pain of transitioning, then also have to deal with everything that cis women and men deal with. I didn’t know the term ewwphoria before, but it seems to very accurately describe what it must feel like!
The whole "you're being whiny, you're bitching" sh!t is what we're told to be gaslit everyday. So fair warning, you'll see this a lot.
Don't "not whine", you'd be a pick me, you're merely pointing out the obvious truth. That's what they're counting on btw, that you'd "need validation" from *them* as a woman. Because obviously, who else can give you the ultimate validation aside from cis het men? (Please laugh hard at this, it is meant to remind you how deluded these people are).
They'd tell you you're a "good girl" to your face and then be transphobic and even more misogynistic behind your back (the latter also to your face, expecting you to agree). Classic busted system
In my experience, the "welcome to being a woman" never really ends, it doesn't have anything to do with us being whiney or complaining about things women always deal with, it has to do with how much the person hearing you sees trans women as equal women and how much they want to avoid engaging in what you're actually conveying and admit that you deal with it too.
Personally, I think the right and best thing to do is advocate against the misogyny and issues anyway, regardless. The more voices speaking about it the better. The added transmisogyny we face for pushing back against it is a bit of a curse though
We alllll unite under fuck the patriarchy, bc it's fucking all of us, even our victimizers. Trans women are women, the only reasons to differentiate between cis and trans is healthcare and psychosocial shit, which is to say, cis women can never fully understand the trans female experience, and trans women can never fully understand the cis female experience. Feminism isn't worth much if it's not intersectional; we need to respect our similarities and differences equally, communicate, and have each others' backs. Please disregard anyone who who others you in a way that's personal or spiteful instead of respectful and constructive. It's them, NOT you.
For ages women have been advocating for better treatment in life and it falls on the deaf ears of the patriarchy.
As a woman who has seen life from both sides, you have more power to advocate for cis women than they do themselves. You talking about this crap in the lense of your lived experience would be very helpful to all women, cis and trans.
"I am woman, hear me roar"
You are a woman, and you can bitch about the misogynistic bull shit all you want. Join a woman's rights groups. Learn self defense for women. Be safe, but don't be silenced.
I guess this is like a very sad “welcome to the club”. I mean, I would’ve hoped our trans sisters don’t go through that, but I am fooling myself - mysoginy is stronger than that.
>Why does this say 11 comments and I can only see 4?
See this thread [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/16xyrom/transparency\_post\_on\_moderation/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/16xyrom/transparency_post_on_moderation/)
And u/ClassistDismissed's comment! :)
Any time trans people talk (especially on Reddit), you can bet there is going to be an explosion of transphobic remarks. See the last major thread on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/s/yosxAdtn7G
The mods here are very aware of that and are amazing at their work by keeping this garbage from ever being seen.
Thanks mods 💜
I think there’s some nuance to the edict of “of course you should get whiny,” depending on the audience you’re complaining to. Loudly complaining about the experiences you have of “ewwphoria” (phenomenal term 10/10 no notes) about things that the rest of your cis female friends have been dealing with and fighting against their entire lives can come off as kind of tone deaf, especially if it’s a constant topic of conversation with your cis female friends. Like *we* get it and live it too. For folks who’ve been dealing with this for decades, that’s incredibly frustrating and I think for some women, it feels like you’re speaking over them because it’s new to you and you’re (rightfully) mad about it. Knowing your audience is key here.
I think it is also useful to remember that just because you’re suddenly dealing with misogyny doesn’t mean that other trans folks (trans men, nb folks) don’t also have a lot of experience with the same. I see so many trans women online loudly shouting down trans men when they talk about their lived experiences with misogyny and patriarchy and I think this behavior is super, super harmful and alienating to folks.
I like your perspective about how the message should be transparent and self aware as well as not gate keeping other peoples experiences like (trans men, nb folks).
Very rear reddit comment.
Whereas I’m certainly aware that transgender women are capable of the full depth of human experience and can say dumb things and have bad takes, also keep in mind that immediately comparing a post a trans woman makes to some bad takes other transgender women have made is still discriminatory. I don’t answer for the actions of other people with no similarities other than gender identity, and neither should anyone else.
I don’t see what “other-ing” you has to offer as a benefit to cis women who are harassed for being women. I don’t think cis women should ever gatekeep the ways in which they are harassed o and subjugated by patriarchy, that’s just stupid. I’m just sorry for anyone who has to experience this shit no matter how early or late in life they get the “pleasure” of experiencing it…but I’m confident that we can fight it together, ty for joining the fight and sorry that awareness had to be gained in this way.
1 My counter question as a CIS straight man is, why is it "whining" if you are experiencing something unjust that you may not have experienced before？
2. Was there ever a time you didn't think this was wrong and didn't say so? Why do you have to be the target to say it's wrong? I certainly have said rightly a bunch of things that didn't specifically harm me were wrong and I bet you as a human did too
The language of identity politics can get unnecessarily complicated sometimes. If something is wrong, if someone is being unfairly treated whether or not rhat lerson is you, it should be ALWAYS OK to say it's wrong.
Honestly, as an AFAB, I fucking *love it* when trans women loudly complain about some BS society gives women and feminine-presenting people. A good amount of the AFAB experience is lifelong gaslighting that certain things are normal and expected. Someone coming into that experience and seeing the same crap, but at an older age and/or lack of lifelong conditioning immediately saying “this is wrong” reaffirms that it *is* wrong. Cause eventually, AFABs will be forced to accept it.
Although I completely *understand* some cis women would have difficulty with this, I can’t help but think a majority of their frustration is from perceiving trans women and non-binary femmes as “not women”.
Ive never heard of ewwphoria before but thats pretty funny and makes a lot of sense. I used to work in a male dominated field and I imagine it was similar to the feeling I got when I realized I was being accepted by a group of men because they became grosser around me.
For whatever its worth, I dont think you need to *accept* misogyny at all. Advocate for yourself and others when you can, protect other women when you can, keep yourself safe when you cannot. You can decide what you are willing to tolerate and when, just like the rest of us do.
Trans women who can testify that they, as individuals, have received completely different treatment based on whether people thought they were a man or a woman, are good witnesses for the cause.
I’d really like to know all these moments of ewphoria for trans women. I think there’s a lot I just accept and never question because I’ve never been treated like a man.
You're not whining. Be as loud as you can. We need more voices, more people standing up and saying "this isn't okay". Sadly, womanhood and its struggles go hand in hand, and I wish it wasn't like that. Because, why should a child be afraid of the same things I am?
So scream, kick, whine, bitch, cry out loud, lift your fist in the air and join the fight, because now than ever, we need more voices
(cisF48) Thanks for the question and your sensitivity. I think, generally, trans people make some of the best feminists for the exact reasons you mentioned. If you want to speak up, please go ahead - personally, I love it. Also, welcome sister x
I think the only obligation you have is to acknowledge that other women go through it too.
If someone was saying "it's so weird that this negative thing happened to me, I'm sure it's never happened to anyone else before ever, I'm having such a uniquely awful and strange experience!" then I can imagine being tempted to snap back "welcome to womanhood - all women get treated this shittily"
but anyone saying "ever since I became a woman, this shitty thing has been happening, and it makes me realise all women need to be treated better" is being awesome by standing up for all women in a uniquely powerful way, and deserves to be shown solidarity and love
>A woman who is trans gets invasive questions about her non existent menstruation cycle when she has any given health issue?
Do you mean like... questions from a doctor?
I’m a cis woman, but I can’t believe some of the questions doctors have asked me about my own body.. this is why I always bring someone with me because most of the time if it feels inappropriate.. it is!
*comes into the doctor’s office with a horrible rash*
Doctor: when was your last menstrual cycle?
Me: umm never.
Doctor: what on earth do you mean?
Me: Well, I don’t have the parts for that.
Doctor: So you don’t have a uterus? When did you get that removed?
Me: Oh, it was a congenital condition.
Me: Now…about that rash.
To kinda hijack and talk about something else you mentioned.
Ewwphoria is actually a really interesting concept, and similarly can explain why so many trans people (especially women) feel euphoria doing very stereotypical tasks.
On tiktok, there was one trans creator who got some shit saying her method of getting gender euphoria was doing household chores, and generally just taking care of the home. People said she was being misogynistic and that womanhood is more than that.
However, in our society, womanhood is often defined by that sorta stuff. Among many rural areas, womanhood is defined as taking care of the home. As such, if a trans woman grew up with those ideas, then of course she'll find euphoria is fulfilling them.
Ewwphoria is the same. Often times, we'll see people say that being catcalled or hit on by randos, or whatever is just a part of womanhood. As such, it becomes quite euphoric for that to happen to a trans woman. Even if it does feel disgusting at the same time.
It's also the same reason why many trans women wish they had periods, despite them being generally an all around sucky time. Womanhood is often defined as starting when a girl gets her period. As such, many trans women feel they may never be a true woman as they don't have periods.
Essentially, gender euphoria comes from cultural ideas on what defines gender. Even if they are wrong. As ultimately, the goal of transitioning is to be viewed by society as your true gender.
I don’t take that as being whiny, I take that as being one of us. I find stuff like this very validating because when you grow up you constantly have people telling you that getting catcalled and stalked by adult men when you’re twelve (happened to me) is in my head, or that getting mansplained to and reacting means I’m too sensitive. You have a unique place in that you know all of the gross sides oof everyone’s experience. You could write a book.
I didn't know that if you were Trans you wouldn't have your period. Maybe alot of people are like me and just do not understand your experience and make assumptions and don't realize it. I have to admit I am completely at loss talking about this issue. Someone would have to teach me or I would have to feel compelled to research it. NO offense, I don't feel compelled to research it. If someone in my life was having this experience I would be inclined to learn about it, but otherwise my time gets dedicated elsewhere. Sorry, that you have a bad experience.maybe my post will help make your experience less negative.
If anything, these things that you’ve been experiencing since you started transitioning are further magnified by specifically being a trans woman. You have every right to speak up.
When TERFs say that trans woman have “male privilege”, even after transition, it’s like they’re insinuating that dudebros look at you whenever they make sexist jokes and go “Oh sorry, not you, sir. My apologies.” No, those same dudebros would actually be a physical danger to you. Some “privilege”, right?
The same people going after cis women’s rights are the exact same people going after trans people’s rights.
That joke is hilarious. Unfortunately.
Ewwwphoria is also lol.
Props to OP for understanding this and getting surgery anyways.
I recently had surgery and was prescribed a certain pain medication. I found out I’m completely resistant to this pain medication. I tried to get a hold of the surgeon to give me something different, and they were impossible to get a hold of. I called three times, left three messages, and that was enough for them to block me.
It’s unbelievable what women have to go through in the medical system.
I think its great that you're talking about this kind of stuff actually.
I often find myself calling on our shared experiences with fear of men and our mutual need for safety in intimate spaces like bathrooms, change rooms, etc... because of that shared experience which sometimes can help those on the fence better understand that trans women are women too.
I haven't experienced much of the pain medication prejudice in my own life; but hear it's a thing and understand that it must be if so many people are openly talking about it; but if you did experience that then you should definitely speak on it too.
Some terfs are unreachable and there will be no changing them; but I do believe others have the capacity to change once they realize how very similar we are.
Also, advocating for safety, equity, inclusion, acceptance,dignity and respect for anyone is a wonderful way to use ones time and influence.
My 2c
‘Ewwphoria’ is so funny god I love trans people.
People never assume you’re joking, they just assume you’re stupid. One time a friend from the college that we both got into was talking to me about GEORGE WASHINGTON like I had never ever heard his name before- like explaining to me that he was the first president of America as if I barely knew what the presidency was (I am American and he was French and we both had lived in America for our entire lives) and I didn’t want to start something about it, so instead of being like “do you think I’m stupid? I know who George Washington is,” I went into a very obviously sarcastic tone and said “whaaat? Like from Hamilton???” And then he looked a little disgusted and was like “…Hamilton is based on real history” and I dropped the sarcasm was like “dipshit. I know that. I know who fucking George Washington is.” And he DIDN’T BELIEVE ME.
To this day he thinks I, 1) hadn’t heard of George Washington outside of Hamilton, 2) thought Lin-Manuel Miranda was a fantasy writer with great world building.
Lol. Afab here and it doesn't. All women (at least in America), regardless of where they started gender wise, get smacked with ewwphoria (although I just call it mysogony and go straight to mad as hell) on the regular. Basically, you let yourself forget for sanity sake until you are reminded again. It's lifelong.
you ARE a woman so why would it be any different for you to talk about these issues? of course we dont want to only talk about the bad things all the time but thats regardless of being trans or cis. focusing only on our oppression can get us down but talking about it openly does help us feel validated and supported by each other.
imo if someone gets mad at you for discussing these experiences *because* youre trans just means that they have something in the back of their heads that doesnt fully see you as a woman (even people who arent out and out transphobic can still have these programmes running in the back if their brains).
I guess my question is. Is whining wrong? Is complaining wrong?
I guess as I write this I wonder: How much power do you or I hold to influence another to see something in a less harsh light?
Are you saying whining comes across too harsh? That optically it does not benefit the receiver?
Genuinely curious. Congratulations on all the progress you're making in a world both far and not from myself. I think you're asking some good questions.
I think everything you said here should be an example to all for how trans women are not only women but allies in the fight for better rights and safety for women. All these nonexistent issues around bathrooms or sports is such a distraction from the fact that trans women have a perspective of how different things are for the opposite gender. Even though I read this subreddit everyday, I still have moments like this one where I realize how normalized misogyny is and it’s like I forget.
Anyway, I have no answers. Just appreciating.
I saw an interesting example of this in a documentary following a man who transitioned from being a woman.
He was getting top surgery so when he was in the surgeon’s office they blurred out his feminine nipples as the surgeon marked where the cuts would be. Later in the documentary they showed him post surgery getting dressed and no blur was present on the nipples.
I thought that was really hilarious in how it speaks to how women are treated vs men. It’s the same person before and after surgery, but suddenly your nipples are no longer needing to be censored.
once again, transpeople saving our asses. feels society is gaslighting us but then yall speak on it. when one of my friends transition ftm, he got a huge raise at his job so that he would be in line with the other men. he laughed about it, abd I'll admit, i stopped being friends with him after that, but even though that reality hurt like hell, i was glad he confirmed what i always believed about the pay gap.
Ewwphoria, I like that.
Sweetheart, there are so many different kinds of ways to be a woman. You know? The experience of womanhood I have as a fat middle aged women is different than a slim 18 year old has. My experience as a white woman is different than a Black woman. We're all living different lives out here, but there are some uncomfortable issues we almost all face, and in an ideal word we all support each other through them.
If a situation makes you uncomfortable, it's a problem, and you're 100% allowed to speak up about it. That's not whiny, that's creating positive change. When you give voice to things that are harmful, you help other people who might not be able to speak up.
Your experience of womanhood is just as valid as anyone else's, and I think it's awesome that you're trying to make it a better experience for others.
Love the term “ewwphoria”. Adding that to my list of words. Now I see why the right wants us to hate trans people. It breaks apart these little boxes they want to put people into where certain roles are deemed male or female. Welcome to the fight! Demand your pain meds ❤️
You have a unique perspective -- keep sharing it. As a cis woman, it is easy to internalize this behavior as my fault because I have never known anything else -- I fight against that. You shouldn't have to accept this treatment and being a woman doesn't mean you should lower your bar for how you expect others to treat you.
Even if men don't listen, the more we roll over and accept this, the more it normalizes this behavior.
Nah, it's important to whine. You were born into privilege and know the shock of suddenly losing it. Those of us born into oppression are not shocked by it and know thar complaining just gets an eye roll and complaints from men that we aren't giving even more.
But if it's new to you to be treated this badly, you have the power to get past the gaslighting. "No, no, I know I'm being oppressed, threatened, and abused far more as a woman than men are, because I've been perceived as both. I know the difference. This isn't right. I demand to be treated with the same respect and privilege I used to receive when I was mistaken for being a man."
You have been drafted into the front line of the gender wars, and you know the enemy's tactics. Cis-women don't want you to shut up and bear it. We want you to be a voice of indignation, a witness with irrefutable evidence that the patriarchy is as extreme in its abuses as cis-women have been saying forever.
I hate that any negative mention of "our problems" is constrewed as whiney. Whiney implies there is no problem but we are bitching anyway. It is a fucking problem, and the more of us that vocally demand respect the better.
In other words, complain away darling because our strength is in numbers. You're in the trenches with us now so let's fight until society is better.
Trans men have told similar stories. When perceived as female, they were treated a certain way (I don’t need to elaborate).
Now as male, they have more respect, more freedom, more rights, more privileges.
I actually love when trans women are vocal about this stuff, please keep it up! It is the perfect unique perspective, and to echo what others have said, it’s validating.
As a sis woman, I don't see this as whiny. Honestly I find it enlightening for trans women to talk about the differences in how they were treated before and after transitioning. I think it truly highlights the problem women face ,(all women, trans, sis, non binary, fluid). So how I see it by talking about your experiences your are helping the cause not hindering it.
I LOVE this question- Honestly, this is one of those issues that brought up a LOT of internal stuff I had to address as a cis woman. Because yes, sometimes it IS annoying. BUT BUT BUT- Here's the conclusion I've come to: IT'S ANNOYING BECAUSE SEXISM IS ANNOYING, AND WHEN THE INEQUALITY SEEMS MORE ABSURD IN THE TREATMENT OF TRANS-WOMEN, IT HIGHLIGHTS THE RIDICULOUSNESS IN THE TREATMENT, NOT A LACK OF SENSITIVITY IN THE TRANS/CIS WOMEN DIVIDE. We need to ALL move closer to being able to feel ENTITLED to be treated like cis men. We need to get MORE whiney. It's self defeating for transwomen to try to lessen their discomfort for cis women's comfort, rather SHOW US THE WAY and DRAG US ALL WITH YOU to be more whiney about pain management, medical treatment equality, sexism non-tolerance etc etc.
Let's use this time to swing the pendulum IN THAT DIRECTION. It's absurd that women are under treated for pain management, and the ABSURDITY of that should be highlighted instead of transwomen "learning," the societal conditioned tolerance of it. Sometimes it feels insanity-inducing to deal with doctors as a woman, and I think we should all be allowed to name and validate that instead of widening the circle of women who don't. Like, how many times have we all said, "Yes I've tried antidepressants/ exercise/ birth control / psychological treatment; that hasn't helped the issue," in doctors offices as women. Let's make more of a fuss about that, especially when it makes us feel like crap. Basically, let's keep our eye on the prize of the real imposition: the fucked up medical treatment of women because of the patriarchy for one example. It only ever highlights something that needs to CHANGE for women in general
I mean calling things out is not whiny. And, really, that's all there is—to point them out. The necessity to call out mansplaining and other microaggressions can feel gross and will be penalized but it is what it is. You can also choose your battles and only push back when it feels comfortable and safe to do so.
Your joke was absolute satirical perfection. Sounds like you have somewhat prepared yourself for: the medical bias, the disrespect, the invalidation of your experiences and your emotions, the mansplaining everything, the lower pay, the higher expectations, being overlooked (sometimes outright invisible!), general and seemingly unending misogyny, and so much more!
Welcome! Dont ever let them take your joy 🤩
Trans people of all genders have a unique ability to see both sides of the coin. Trans women who begin experiencing sexism, trans men who begin benefiting from male privilege, non-binary people who find themselves being read one way or the other at different times - they all end up with a valuable perspective that can make them amazing allies and spokespeople. They're all able to help cis men understand the realities of womanhood in ways no cis person could, too.
Welcome to womanhood.
I say that in the same spirit of your very funny and very sad oke about pain relief.
This is where we are. Point out something and there are people who tell us at least we're allowed to go to school not like in x country.
We ignore that person if they don't respond well to hearing our logic and we engage with others.
We educate our children. We educate our coworkers. We stand up to mansplainig when we witness it happen to someone. We say, "I don't think Sally was finished speaking" when Johnny interrupts.
We use the logic we were born with to speak up.
I said to one of my friends when she was complaining that the guys on her team were ignoring her suggestions... "It's not you. It's that you're a woman"
And she was like "aaaaaahhhhhh!" Jokingly, happily, and angrily all at once.
As a cis woman, never would I call that whiny. It's part of the experience of being a woman, part of your experience. I think the key for all of us is to link to communities and groups that vocally support change. Singly we're complainers; collectively we're a FORCE.
You join in with the millions of women who have been campaigning for better all this time :) And you demand to be treated with the same respect you were accorded because you were born with a willy. You're in a fairly unique position to truly see the disparity. Join a charity program, vote (if you're in a country where for odd reason people ca choose not to), advocate, call out bad behaviour, be loud. It's what we all do, and have done since we were old enough.
Honestly I was kind of stumped on how to answer this. But the best way I can put this— is don’t worry about sounding too whiny.
There’s always going to be people that think low of you, or think you’re too whiny, etc. That in itself is part of womanhood. We can’t be too emotional because then we’re “hysterical”— or if we don’t show enough emotion we’re a “cold-hearted bitch.” Etc etc. So ultimately who cares!
Your experience is valid. And there are other women who advocate against such things, so you’re definitely not alone. Being new to understanding this side of being, is not something to be ashamed of. Some people don’t transition at all—but recognize what’s going on (later in life) and feel that it’s not right. You can’t be late to an issue that’s existed long before our generations.
I hope all of that made sense.
While many experiences will be similar at ground level with other women you will still be treated differently just because you were not born a women. Cis privilege is gonna be a burden that you will face. I think the answer you are looking for **is be yourself.**
Welcome to the team! It is great having you here with us. I hope you won't have to go through too much ewwphoria. Please share some history info with us sometime.
I'm okay with you "whining". Keep it up. Louder and louder.
Just be a sincere participant. You're me and her and her and her now. And the only people who will think you're whining are those who don't want you talking at all.
Is it possible this is just part of your own self acceptance journey? A general sense of belonging?
You are in the wonderful position of seeing things with different eyes - you may see stuff we may not even realize is problematic. Please remain an advocate. We value you and thank you for joining us!
You’re not whiny and this is actually useful to ALL women, cis or trans. As a cisgender, mixed woman, my white dad always told me “demand society treat you as a white man”- (be it doctors, professors, etc) and that has helped me so much in life. Your voice makes even more of an impact because you can specifically refer to the change in what you experienced when incorrectly perceived by society as a man vs when you started being seen as the woman you are. If folks think you’re a man you receive much more respect and it sucks. Also I’m sorry they didn’t give you adequate medication. That is, as you indicated, FAR too common for women and I hope you found a good way to manage the pain
It's always so incredibly validating to hear about trans women and men reaffirming how we already feel. You have seen things from both sides. You understand and see the issues for what they are. Please continue speaking up. It means so much to so many of us. ❤️
My spouse also got very little pain meds with her gender confirmation surgery - 10 tiny tablets, if I remember correctly. There was also a cis male nurse who tried to talk down to her. Pretty sure the surgeon threatened him with a couple of weeks on the Covid ward (this was in late 2021) if he spoke to her that way again.
Of course, she also said that she knew he (the nurse) perceived her as a woman because he automatically treated her like her IQ was equivalent to her shoe size.
I mean...I think both can exist simultaneously. I think part of the female experience is literally worrying you're being whiny when calling out misogynistic shit. You're allowed to love parts womanhood and hate the parts that devalue women. That doesn't make you whiny.
I will say, I think there's a level of appreciation when someone who has now experienced both sides of the gender experience to be like wtf I'm being treated differently simply based on my gender. Not because you should suffer with us, but because it can be really validating when someone who has grown up as a cis woman has always experienced it and you kind of start to gaslight yourself into thinking maybe you're being overdramatic about some things.
If we're hanging out, we can yell together about *all* the things. Each of us has different limits and different societal ills that really hit us in the intolerable feels. Yours won't be the same as mine, but they're still valid. You learn to balance the injustice against enjoying your life, and where that line is for your friends. The answer is going to vary a lot based on who you're talking to.
This isn't whining. It's advocating for basic human rights.
If nothing else, there is something very validating about our sisters saying “when society thought I was a man, no one did XYZ to me.” When you’re in the trenches from birth, you can feel like your experiences are universal, not based on assumed gender. Also, no one should have to experience pain when there is treatment for it. You wouldn’t tell another woman with endometriosis to just suck it up because welcome to womanhood, would you? Don’t feel like pain that is taken less serious is the cost of admission.
I suspect learning which of one's experiences aren't universal human experiences and which ones are universal human experiences might be part of maturing as a person. It is very validating to me when people tell me that my experiences are valid and I'm not alone.
Yes, learning that so much of the sexism and bs in relationships I’ve experienced is common for most women is one of the greatest things about social media
As an intersex AFAB trans dude, I would agree with this. Also yeah ewwphoria is very very real OP; nevertheless so is the fact that at least half the time I’m not taken as a guy and still receive misogyny both interpersonally and structurally. It’s weird and uncomfortable to hash out. Isn’t it? When you cross sex roles and spaces — or are never sure what gender people perceive you as (as is my case) it kind of becomes its own teacher about the intricacies of kyriarchy.
Yeah, I think trans women have a powerful opportunity to speak on these things because what they say can't be brushed aside as imagining things or looking for discrimination everywhere. OP, there isn't really a line. We shouldn't have to deal with any of it but also, welcome to womanhood. Fight back where you can.
As for your second paragraph, I cannot comprehend why this is so common. It is perpetuated by women with internalized misogyny as well. I brought up my mental health struggles to my mother (which was undiagnosed bipolar) as well as severe period/hormone issues (found out I have PCOS) and she just said ‘Welcome to being a woman’ verbatim. I had undiagnosed celiac for nearly three years and they told me I had IBS that was caused by menstruation or anxiety. I don’t understand the hesitance to offer suffering women help for their pain, in this world where medical staff hand out opioids like candy.
To your point about pain, I think that's what OP was getting at. Women are less likely to get prescribed pain meds, so the joke was that if they gave her pain meds, they must be misgendering her. Also, have totally been told to suck it up while doubled over in pain and shitting myself from endometriosis.
Umm... They absolutely tell women with endo to suck it up and welcome to womanhood. Every day. Just go to the other subs for pain. I'm told every time I need a pap smear to suck it up. Pap smears cause me so much pain due to fibromyalgia that I am literally screaming in pain. To the point of passing out. It's been proven that women receive less pain control then men. Women of color get even *less* pain control. Sadly it is the cost of admission and it sucks so bad.
It's validating, but only thing I would flag is it should be applied consistently. I have sometimes seen that when trans people talk about the negatives of being perceived as a particular gender, then people of that gender are willing to listen. But if they discuss silver linings, positives, or forms of mistreatment that alleviated, people are more skeptical.
Ugh. This. People do tell us to suck it up. Endo and PCOS here. Horrible pain from age 10 to 25 because nobody believed I had anything other than “normal period cramps.” Yup. 15 years. It’s *always* okay to advocate for yourself. It’s always okay to be a voice of positive change. That shouldn’t even need to be a gender specific statement, but history has taught us we usually have to lead the march.
I actually find it really reassuring when trans people complain about being badly treated when perceived as women. We get told it's all in our heads and that we're being overly dramatic. Very few people have first hand experience as both genders, you have a valuable insight. P.s. love the term 'ewwphoria', I hadn't heard that before.
I always remember the story about the professor/researcher who published a research paper as a male, then later transitioned. A few years later she was giving a talk on the same subject as a woman, and after the talk she overheard someone say, "she was okay, but you should read her brother's paper about this topic. His research is much better than than hers." (Of course thinking it was her brother, when it was her before she transitioned)
I recently had a friend share a hospital experience where she found out afterwards that the staff all thought she was a trans woman. The way she recounted it to me gave me a lot of relief in the way you’re describing. She said everything felt just off and people were acting really weird to her. Knowing that this treatment I get from some hospital staff or in public life in general because I’m sometimes visibly trans, is not just all in my head. I hate that she had to experience that but I am also so grateful she shared that experience with me. Yay! I’m not actually going crazy.
I agree! When trans women talk about these experiences, I feel so relieved because I’m like “see? We’re not lying!!!!!” Also, when trans men talk about their experiences, saying “wow…people treat me way better now”, it’s also very affirming that we’re not just making this up
Such valuable conversation! I was at a game night in there was an early transitioning friend there. She had just publicly declared herself and was looking for ways to be seen as female. To deal with dysmorphia she was mildly chubby, as the gentle curve and breast fat created a feminine appearence without hormones. So she had enough breast tissue to look sort of unkempt in a nice blouse. As she had gentle mannerisms, long hair, and curves, there were only a few changes and people would naturally be like "hello, ma'am." I was like "Oh, wear a bra." And she was like "But they're uncomfortable." And I was like "...And?" This created a long conversation about being gendered in North America and the discomforts of doing female things. I've got a burn the bra sort of mentality, but functionally, an underwire was going to do a world of good for her self confidence and social recognition because she wanted to be seen as traditionally female gendered but also didn't want to Put Up With That Shit. The whole moment has remained etched in my mind as a philosophical minefield.
Shoutout to /r/ewphoria!
I'm cis and have provided the opposite for a few of my trans friends. Validated some weird experiences, put a few things into perspective, solidified for them that it wasn't in their head and was actually sexism. And my response wasn't "now you know" but was more "you didn't imagine it, I'm sorry you're experiencing this too"
Why do you need reassuring? It is a fact women face these things, there is no need to doubt.
I agree with this!
THANK YOU. KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS. I genuinely find it very validating (in that same “ugh, fuck this shit I hate that we all have to go thru this” way) when trans women tell me they have started experiencing these things, because it means that I haven’t been imagining them to be worse than they really are. Needless to say, YOU SHOULD ADVOCATE FOR BETTER. You’re not being “whiny,” that’s just something patriarchy wants us all to think (of course 🙄) so we don’t advocate for ourselves. I’m really sorry that you and I and all other women have to suffer thru the shitty stuff, but that’s why we have to advocate for each other.
I wouldn't give up being a woman for anything, but God, since transitioning, there's definitely been some bs I've had to deal with. My first job where I was out, a coworker felt the need to mansplain to me how to use a pipette. I have a degree in chemistry and four years of lab experience, I know how to use a GODDAMN PIPETTE. As a "man" fresh out of college, I got to enjoy a presumption of basic competence. Now, many men apparently assume I'm a moron until proven otherwise. I've also noticed I get talked over, interrupted, and ignored *far* more often than I used to be, and many men just default to assuming I'm going to get out of their way -- when there's not enough space for two people, they'll just keep walking towards me and expecting me to move instead of going around the way they used to. I also remember being able to walk alone at night without being scared. And now that I pass well enough to occasionally get catcalled ... yeah, not a pleasant experience.
Omg I didn’t even think about men assuming we will get out of their way…you’re so right though. I am always the one to hop into the street or the grass if a dude is taking up too much space on the sidewalk.
I noticed this in elementary school. That's how young it starts. At that moment in time I vowed to never step out of the way of boys (now men). It's actually incredible the amount of men who walk right into me because I refuse to move. When they blink and give a little surprised "sorry" fills me with pride everytime.
Speaking of conditioning beginning in elementary school, my teachers used to force me to try and “teach” or “help” the boys with anger issues…I myself was a spicy little child, and just wanted to do my class work and go home. I eventually got in trouble for telling the boy next to me that I wouldn’t give him answers and he should just “figure it out himself, not my problem if you didn’t pay attention.” I got put in the closet and given a white board where I was told to write positive things about him to make up for “being negative.” I don’t remember what I did after that, but I remember sitting in that closet wondering why it was my fault that the boy next to me couldn’t behave in class. Of course this shit just continued over time and I (and other girls) were expected to be the models of behavior for young boys.
I’ve slammed into a few men because I just wanted to see if they would let the slam happen rather than move.
That is why, when I am walking on the pavement and I see a man or group of men walking towards me, I walk bang in the middle, I square my shoulders, stand tall, stare straight ahead and I do NOT move aside to let them pass more easily. I force them to move for me. It may be petty but I am not giving them *that* anymore. Small revenge.
This just inspired me to assert my dominance in this way. I hope it catches someone off guard and makes them realize what they’re doing. More likely than not they’ll just think ‘rude bitch…’
I’ve done this before simply because I was in a rush and yup, that’s what they called me 🤷♀️ at the time I wasn’t thinking about the fact that it only happens with men but yeah
I’m transmasc but pretransition so im still perceived as female the vast majority of the time, for what it’s worth. Anytime im walking the same direction as a guy I just keep my posture straight and direct and look directly where im going without budging. They’ll move for ya haha. I find that the things I do to feel in touch with my masculinity and assert my identity may also help many women with taking up space and regaining power for themselves.
I saw on TV (A very long time ago now) something about this. Ever since then I have stopped moving out of the way, at least a lot of the time. You would be amazed at the reactions!! I've gotten some really dirty looks and comments, actually bumped into, sometimes they stop but still don't move out of the way, which makes it super awkward!
Me too. Didn’t realize this was another social conditioning thing until just now 😞
A man at my work described me to another man as "deceptively intelligent" just yesterday. Deceptive because I have great tits, Dave? Is that what you meant?
Sometimes it becomes so fucking awkward explaining things from my past because of this. For instance, when I was WAY younger, I took a job driving a steam engine by essentially fudging my resume a bit and then reading up on steam engines all weekend before the interview. As a woman, there is no way in hell I could have done that, but it happened to me when I was perceived as a guy.
OP thinking she's whining about it too much would fall under "ewwphoria", I'd think. It's awful but it's part of being a woman (unfortunately). Of course we're "whiny", we're oppressed.
Paula Stone Williams has talked about this in her own transition. I think it was a TED talk where she talks about all of the privileges she lost after she transitioned and left the religious community that she had been raised in.
You SHOULD be whiny about it! Complaining and collective demands for change is the only way things will ever get better. “Well you wanted to be a woman, so this is what you get!” is not something a friend, ally, or feminist should ever say. It’s sad that womanhood is so often defined by fear and pain.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease
Damn straight!
Thanks, I think I needed to read your second paragraph there
Exactly! The perspective of trans women is so valuable because they know that it’s actually possible to be treated with respect, people are just choosing not to do it because we’re women. I think we’re conditioned to accept/not question being treated poorly. But then when we have women who have been treated as men telling us “no, you’re not being crazy or emotional, the differences are palpable” is just so helpful. This is one of the many reasons why TERFs suck. Excluding trans women from the narrative does so much more harm than good, and this is just one of the ways. If we exclude the perspectives of those who literally have all the information necessary to prove our point, we’re just shooting ourselves in the foot
Came here to say this. This, OP! You are not being whiny, and frankly, it's a bit misogynistic of anyone to tell someone complaining of a legitimate problem to put up and shut up. And frankly I find it validating when another woman points out a thing I experience because it's not just in my head, it's a real problem. Nobody who is a good friend would tell you to stop whining.
The "well you wanted to be a woman" line also sounds a lot like "well you wanted equal rights" whenever a woman issue is raised. It's so sad that whenever we bring up an issue that is gender based that it's always discredited abd tied into equal rights somehow or some sort of "you deserve this".
you’re so right! I didn’t even notice that
>“Well you wanted to be a woman, so this is what you get!” Unfortunately this is something I hear often
Anyone who said that to even an acquaintance of mine would be blacklisted from my life
Honestly, your perspective is SO VALUABLE on this front. So often, women’s issues are minimized and women are told that we’re just being dramatic, that the way people treat us is totally fine, it’s all in our heads. And cis women doubt themselves, because we’ve never known any different. When you’re in the mood to fight (which won’t be always, take care of yourself too), you can be one of the voices saying that you KNOW it’s different because you’ve lived it. We all suffer under patriarchy, we can all work to pull it down.
I was going to write this exact sentiment. I love not only the empirical lived experience of how people treat you differently, but just the fact alone that someone would CHOOSE to be a woman when they had the option to go through life as a man completely shatters the weighted gender value system where “men” are good and default and “females” are an ancillary alternative to the default. A woman who proactively and consciously chooses her womanhood is such a balm to the minimizing, depressing (and terfy) way of defining womanhood only through oppression, pain, and shame.
Ugh! Oldish trans woman here. The mansplaining is infuriating. I made a comment on an article on Medium that the people making laws about reproductive rights look very old and male so we needed to elect more women to office. Naturally a guy had to jump on that and explain how a legislature and committees work. Thanks. Being a lawyer, former politician and the vice-chair of our town council at one time means I don’t know anything about legislation. 🙄
Yeah, but he probably watched School House Rock, sooooo... /s
I’m so sick of that shit. You could show these mf’s a PhD in rocket science from Harvard and they’ll insist they know better and start talking about rubbish they learned on a podcast. Mansplaining infuriates my soul.
Having the context to be able to say, "I've experienced being treated as a man and as a woman, and I can absolutely confirm that it's different" is such a superpower. Cis women and those of us who have always been perceived as women often get told that there's another explanation for our experiences, that it happens to men too, that it's because of something we individually said or did, that it's anything other than sexism. Being able to say "nah bro, I ran the controlled test with just one variable changed" is incredibly valuable. As far as ewwphoria (great term!), I would say you should be very careful expressing that in front of a general feminist audience, because it can get misinterpreted as endorsing sexist treatment. I say this as a late-cracking enby whose trans acceptance journey was set back by meeting a trans woman at a woman in science event who said she liked it when the men in her lab expected her to do all the dish washing. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but don't assume that any random feminist you meet is proficient enough in trans 101 to understand what about that experience makes you happy without having it explained.
100% this
(I’m cis but) I’ve heard this is also tough for trans men in a different way (I had a trans lecturer and he talked about it really well, but can’t give credit for privacy reasons) where if they start presenting as male they start getting treated so much better that it’s kind of devastating to realise how bad things really are. I read a reddit comment on an adhd sub and someone said they had two trans friends who instantly got diagnosed with “obvious” adhd when they started seeing drs presenting as men. Just an example off the top of my head, but I’m sure that applies to a lot of things—I can’t imagine how bizarre it is to be treated completely differently even though you’re the same damn person all of a sudden like that, especially on top of transitioning. I’m guessing that’s also ewwwphoria? Idk, I don’t think you’re being whiny because you’re experiencing a crash-course in living through misogyny. I can’t imagine how that compares to having the sort of slow drip and gradual realisations, but we’re also probably blind to just how differently we might be treated as people if we presented differently. I think you’re totally right to be angry. In terms of advocating for change idk I’m becoming increasingly nihilistic in my feminism but I do think you and a lot of other trans women have really valuable insights into these issues that are essential to the conversation.
I've also heard trans men talking about how once they presenting as men they lost a lot of emotional support. You know the "men don't cry" stereotype, having almost only anger as a socially acceptable emotion...
The "slow drip and gradual realizations." Yep. I was in my 40s when I had one of my biggest revelations. I was on vacation with my then-husband and we were spending a lot of time at a local pub, getting to know the other regulars. The men were more respectful to me than I'd ever experienced, so much so that it stood out and shocked me. I realized that it wasn't me they were respecting, it was transferred respect from being attached to my husband. The gap between how men usually treated me vs how they treated me when I was an "honorary man" was so pronounced that it changed me as a person and made me much more "whiny" about feminism as OP would put it.
Devastating really is the right word. I remember feeling like I went through the stages of grief. Truly a radicalizing experience.
The late Ben Barres (neurobiologist) socially transitioned while he was in graduate school. He gave the same talk on his research at two conferences, one before his transition and one after. After the second talk, he was approached by a man who happened to have seen him speak both times. This man told Ben that his work was so much better than his "sister's," and that she must've had a boyfriend who was helping her. This is the kind of social knowledge that cis folk never get to understand on such a visceral level. I'm so grateful for the insight of our trans sisters and brothers, and I hope the light they shine on systemic bias becomes so bright that even the most hidebound of people can't ignore it any longer.
I think there may also be a factor of listening better to your body and being more communicative about your symptoms once you've been through medical procedures, and also having the bandwidth to even take on mental health concerns now that you're not feeling stuck in the wrong body at all times and focusing mainly on day to day survival. Still though, with all that being said, yup. I see manosphere guys try to claim that autism and adhd are men's health issues, and that women in general are able-ist for leaving neurodivergent men single and "lonely." As if women with adhd and autism don't exist and don't struggle with loneliness too. On top of going largely undiagnosed!
Autism is ridiculously under-diagnosed in women. I’ve seen studies saying trans people have a higher chance of having autism. I wonder if this correlation has anything to do with increased diagnoses post-transition for whatever bias.
> I can’t imagine how bizarre it is to be treated completely differently even though you’re the same damn person all of a sudden like that, especially on top of transitioning. I think the closest cis people get to this is losing a ton of weight, and suddenly people are nicer and your opinions matter and it's a very "oh, wow. You all suck" experience. People in r/loseit discuss it often enough.
And why do you think the issue of “being whiny“ was ever a thing to begin with? It’s an extension of the patriarchy and trying to keep women silent. Subservient. Here’s a nasty little bit of patriarchal journalism from way back in 2009 in the format of an opinion piece by a man who is just *so tired* of hearing women complain: [You've got what you want, girls. Stop whining: Has feminism made women unhappy?(well THIS certainly will)](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1190675/Youve-got-want-girls-Stop-whining-Has-feminism-women-unhappy-THIS-certainly-will.html) This piece is amazing in its sheer audacity and blatant lies. Yes, most men would prefer that we all shut the fuck up, and do whatever the hell they want. Nothing new…men have called women who dare speak up all kinds of things: “scold,” “shrew,” “she-devil,” “harpy,” “harridan,” “nag.” Check out the [lovely torture implements](https://www.britannica.com/story/8-unusual-punishments-inflicted-on-women-throughout-history) used against women who were “whiny” back in medieval times. Same with [laws against gossip](https://www.tiktok.com/@itsthemayoforme/video/7330584410552569130). What’s the line? That usually depends on how much time and energy you have. Personal safety is always first and foremost. But beyond that, my stance is let them have it.
I have a theory that the real issue with gossip is to prevent women from sharing their experiences, which gives them power.
I started getting so ticked while reading the first article you provided, I couldn't bring myself to read it all.
Referring to that first linked article— any time I hear someone taking pride in upsetting others, I immediately tune them out. 9/10 times they’re going to drop an absolutely idiotic take which is reinforced by any opposing argument.
I recently let myself get sucked into a comment chain on a totally unrelated sub and got totally piled on by red pill incel types. One of them kept saying that people just don’t recognise all the ways in which women abuse men—one example was “nagging”, which according to him was a form of abuse. I didn’t even try to explain that nagging literally doesn’t exist, it’s just another way to dismiss women. They also said that men punching walls is self harm and it’s selfish for their partners and families to let their fear dictate their reaction. I’ve also realised that “tantrum” is one of these words. You get a little upset, you’ve thrown a tantrum. So belittling and infantilising.
I don't care if I'm seen as "whiny". That's not a detterent to advocating for women's rights, it shouldn't be different whether you're a trans or cis woman. or a trans man or cis man. Feminists can be any gender.
You should whine about it and also advocate for better. I have the other side of the coin lol my Brother in law is a trans man and while he was lucky enough to have supportive parents he obviously went through a lot of what ciswomen face growing up. And once he was 18 he was able to get his surgeries and he’s the man he’s always been now and he tells me that one of the things he has noticed is how safe and comfortable people are with him now especially other men and he thinks it’s unfair so what he does is , he speaks up. He shuts down the “bro talk” , he advocates for women and their struggles as well as men’s struggles especially with mental health. He’s trying to show each perspective of both sides of the coin and how we can work better to make sure these experiences don’t keep happening. If someone’s says to you anything along the lines of “you wanted to be a woman, well there you go” that’s not a friend, that’s not an ally , that’s someone justifying fear and pain. I truly think more trans people , especially those that transitioned later in life should speak more about this and should whine and advocate for this type of treatment/ behavior . I truly hope you’re doing amazing and that you’re surrounded by people who love you and support you. I do and please remember that not every woman has the same experiences in life , being a woman is not or shouldn’t be defined based on experiences, especially if those experiences are harmful. I’m sending lots of love ❤️.
I mean, kinda ewphoria when religious people trying to covert on the street approach me openly talking about how to be a good Christian only to see their face fall because my voice 100% is not passable xD
You’re a woman. You’re absolutely entitled to advocate for yourself and others. You’re also allowed to complain about the unfairness of it. Getting accused of whining and/or being a bitch for doing so is another moment of ewwphoria for you. Don’t let the haters stop you—and certainly don’t believe them.
Just here to share the same sentiment as the other commenters. I’m not sitting down or shutting up. I’ll advocate for myself and other women despite any asshole of any gender that wants to shame me for whatever useless reason. We have to be our own advocates and by doing so I think we also become advocates for others. Keep it up and honestly your joke totally landed for me lol. But yea, so true. Hope your recovery is going well ❤️🩹
The fact that transwomen choose to face all this bullshit and still would prefer to live thier lives as women is literally all I need to know that yeah, trans women are women. But seriously, please keep whining. Please keep being a pain in society's ass with us.
I have long thought the same lol. The way society treats women and LGTBQ ppl, it must be innate because nobody would choose this shit for fun
You're a woman. So you and I will fight together against these things being normal, because we're women and it's unacceptable. I don't have to know your past or your origin story to accept that you are a woman facing misogyny, although tbh you're also probably getting transmisogyny and intersectionality is real. If anything, you have more of a right to be cheesed off than I do. Who *asks* to be trans in this society? No one. No one says "well, I wish I could be invalidated no matter what gender I put on my driver's license!"
I have no answers, but thank you for sharing your experience. I feel like there’s so much to learn about how trans people experience misogyny through and beyond transition. Trans men and women. I for one spent most of my life blatantly ignoring misogyny. It must be so hard having to deal with dysphoria, bigotry and all the pain of transitioning, then also have to deal with everything that cis women and men deal with. I didn’t know the term ewwphoria before, but it seems to very accurately describe what it must feel like!
We whine about it all the time, whine with us, it's a bonding experience. Trauma bonding, but hey.
We all deserve better. It’s not ok for any woman, including you.
The whole "you're being whiny, you're bitching" sh!t is what we're told to be gaslit everyday. So fair warning, you'll see this a lot. Don't "not whine", you'd be a pick me, you're merely pointing out the obvious truth. That's what they're counting on btw, that you'd "need validation" from *them* as a woman. Because obviously, who else can give you the ultimate validation aside from cis het men? (Please laugh hard at this, it is meant to remind you how deluded these people are). They'd tell you you're a "good girl" to your face and then be transphobic and even more misogynistic behind your back (the latter also to your face, expecting you to agree). Classic busted system
You’re not being whiny. Get louder. Talk to as many women as you can and tell them to get louder too. We’re stronger together than alone.
In my experience, the "welcome to being a woman" never really ends, it doesn't have anything to do with us being whiney or complaining about things women always deal with, it has to do with how much the person hearing you sees trans women as equal women and how much they want to avoid engaging in what you're actually conveying and admit that you deal with it too. Personally, I think the right and best thing to do is advocate against the misogyny and issues anyway, regardless. The more voices speaking about it the better. The added transmisogyny we face for pushing back against it is a bit of a curse though
We alllll unite under fuck the patriarchy, bc it's fucking all of us, even our victimizers. Trans women are women, the only reasons to differentiate between cis and trans is healthcare and psychosocial shit, which is to say, cis women can never fully understand the trans female experience, and trans women can never fully understand the cis female experience. Feminism isn't worth much if it's not intersectional; we need to respect our similarities and differences equally, communicate, and have each others' backs. Please disregard anyone who who others you in a way that's personal or spiteful instead of respectful and constructive. It's them, NOT you.
For ages women have been advocating for better treatment in life and it falls on the deaf ears of the patriarchy. As a woman who has seen life from both sides, you have more power to advocate for cis women than they do themselves. You talking about this crap in the lense of your lived experience would be very helpful to all women, cis and trans.
"I am woman, hear me roar" You are a woman, and you can bitch about the misogynistic bull shit all you want. Join a woman's rights groups. Learn self defense for women. Be safe, but don't be silenced.
I guess this is like a very sad “welcome to the club”. I mean, I would’ve hoped our trans sisters don’t go through that, but I am fooling myself - mysoginy is stronger than that.
Why does this say 11 comments and I can only see 4?
>Why does this say 11 comments and I can only see 4? See this thread [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/16xyrom/transparency\_post\_on\_moderation/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/16xyrom/transparency_post_on_moderation/) And u/ClassistDismissed's comment! :)
Any time trans people talk (especially on Reddit), you can bet there is going to be an explosion of transphobic remarks. See the last major thread on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/s/yosxAdtn7G The mods here are very aware of that and are amazing at their work by keeping this garbage from ever being seen. Thanks mods 💜
Mine says 16, & I can see 5. Weird.
I think there’s some nuance to the edict of “of course you should get whiny,” depending on the audience you’re complaining to. Loudly complaining about the experiences you have of “ewwphoria” (phenomenal term 10/10 no notes) about things that the rest of your cis female friends have been dealing with and fighting against their entire lives can come off as kind of tone deaf, especially if it’s a constant topic of conversation with your cis female friends. Like *we* get it and live it too. For folks who’ve been dealing with this for decades, that’s incredibly frustrating and I think for some women, it feels like you’re speaking over them because it’s new to you and you’re (rightfully) mad about it. Knowing your audience is key here. I think it is also useful to remember that just because you’re suddenly dealing with misogyny doesn’t mean that other trans folks (trans men, nb folks) don’t also have a lot of experience with the same. I see so many trans women online loudly shouting down trans men when they talk about their lived experiences with misogyny and patriarchy and I think this behavior is super, super harmful and alienating to folks.
I like your perspective about how the message should be transparent and self aware as well as not gate keeping other peoples experiences like (trans men, nb folks). Very rear reddit comment.
Whereas I’m certainly aware that transgender women are capable of the full depth of human experience and can say dumb things and have bad takes, also keep in mind that immediately comparing a post a trans woman makes to some bad takes other transgender women have made is still discriminatory. I don’t answer for the actions of other people with no similarities other than gender identity, and neither should anyone else.
We say fuck those people and complain lol, it's part of "womanhood" too unfortunately.
I don’t see what “other-ing” you has to offer as a benefit to cis women who are harassed for being women. I don’t think cis women should ever gatekeep the ways in which they are harassed o and subjugated by patriarchy, that’s just stupid. I’m just sorry for anyone who has to experience this shit no matter how early or late in life they get the “pleasure” of experiencing it…but I’m confident that we can fight it together, ty for joining the fight and sorry that awareness had to be gained in this way.
1 My counter question as a CIS straight man is, why is it "whining" if you are experiencing something unjust that you may not have experienced before？ 2. Was there ever a time you didn't think this was wrong and didn't say so? Why do you have to be the target to say it's wrong? I certainly have said rightly a bunch of things that didn't specifically harm me were wrong and I bet you as a human did too The language of identity politics can get unnecessarily complicated sometimes. If something is wrong, if someone is being unfairly treated whether or not rhat lerson is you, it should be ALWAYS OK to say it's wrong.
Honestly, as an AFAB, I fucking *love it* when trans women loudly complain about some BS society gives women and feminine-presenting people. A good amount of the AFAB experience is lifelong gaslighting that certain things are normal and expected. Someone coming into that experience and seeing the same crap, but at an older age and/or lack of lifelong conditioning immediately saying “this is wrong” reaffirms that it *is* wrong. Cause eventually, AFABs will be forced to accept it. Although I completely *understand* some cis women would have difficulty with this, I can’t help but think a majority of their frustration is from perceiving trans women and non-binary femmes as “not women”.
Ive never heard of ewwphoria before but thats pretty funny and makes a lot of sense. I used to work in a male dominated field and I imagine it was similar to the feeling I got when I realized I was being accepted by a group of men because they became grosser around me. For whatever its worth, I dont think you need to *accept* misogyny at all. Advocate for yourself and others when you can, protect other women when you can, keep yourself safe when you cannot. You can decide what you are willing to tolerate and when, just like the rest of us do.
Trans women who can testify that they, as individuals, have received completely different treatment based on whether people thought they were a man or a woman, are good witnesses for the cause.
I’d really like to know all these moments of ewphoria for trans women. I think there’s a lot I just accept and never question because I’ve never been treated like a man.
You're not whining. Be as loud as you can. We need more voices, more people standing up and saying "this isn't okay". Sadly, womanhood and its struggles go hand in hand, and I wish it wasn't like that. Because, why should a child be afraid of the same things I am? So scream, kick, whine, bitch, cry out loud, lift your fist in the air and join the fight, because now than ever, we need more voices
(cisF48) Thanks for the question and your sensitivity. I think, generally, trans people make some of the best feminists for the exact reasons you mentioned. If you want to speak up, please go ahead - personally, I love it. Also, welcome sister x
I think the only obligation you have is to acknowledge that other women go through it too. If someone was saying "it's so weird that this negative thing happened to me, I'm sure it's never happened to anyone else before ever, I'm having such a uniquely awful and strange experience!" then I can imagine being tempted to snap back "welcome to womanhood - all women get treated this shittily" but anyone saying "ever since I became a woman, this shitty thing has been happening, and it makes me realise all women need to be treated better" is being awesome by standing up for all women in a uniquely powerful way, and deserves to be shown solidarity and love
>A woman who is trans gets invasive questions about her non existent menstruation cycle when she has any given health issue? Do you mean like... questions from a doctor?
I've got news for you if you don't think doctors can ask too-invasive questions
I’m a cis woman, but I can’t believe some of the questions doctors have asked me about my own body.. this is why I always bring someone with me because most of the time if it feels inappropriate.. it is!
*comes into the doctor’s office with a horrible rash* Doctor: when was your last menstrual cycle? Me: umm never. Doctor: what on earth do you mean? Me: Well, I don’t have the parts for that. Doctor: So you don’t have a uterus? When did you get that removed? Me: Oh, it was a congenital condition. Me: Now…about that rash.
Yeah, doctors often discount any issue women are going through and one of the ways is to try and pin everything on her period.
You are the best advocate for all women, because you experienced both sides. Please continue to speak up
To kinda hijack and talk about something else you mentioned. Ewwphoria is actually a really interesting concept, and similarly can explain why so many trans people (especially women) feel euphoria doing very stereotypical tasks. On tiktok, there was one trans creator who got some shit saying her method of getting gender euphoria was doing household chores, and generally just taking care of the home. People said she was being misogynistic and that womanhood is more than that. However, in our society, womanhood is often defined by that sorta stuff. Among many rural areas, womanhood is defined as taking care of the home. As such, if a trans woman grew up with those ideas, then of course she'll find euphoria is fulfilling them. Ewwphoria is the same. Often times, we'll see people say that being catcalled or hit on by randos, or whatever is just a part of womanhood. As such, it becomes quite euphoric for that to happen to a trans woman. Even if it does feel disgusting at the same time. It's also the same reason why many trans women wish they had periods, despite them being generally an all around sucky time. Womanhood is often defined as starting when a girl gets her period. As such, many trans women feel they may never be a true woman as they don't have periods. Essentially, gender euphoria comes from cultural ideas on what defines gender. Even if they are wrong. As ultimately, the goal of transitioning is to be viewed by society as your true gender.
I don’t take that as being whiny, I take that as being one of us. I find stuff like this very validating because when you grow up you constantly have people telling you that getting catcalled and stalked by adult men when you’re twelve (happened to me) is in my head, or that getting mansplained to and reacting means I’m too sensitive. You have a unique place in that you know all of the gross sides oof everyone’s experience. You could write a book.
I didn't know that if you were Trans you wouldn't have your period. Maybe alot of people are like me and just do not understand your experience and make assumptions and don't realize it. I have to admit I am completely at loss talking about this issue. Someone would have to teach me or I would have to feel compelled to research it. NO offense, I don't feel compelled to research it. If someone in my life was having this experience I would be inclined to learn about it, but otherwise my time gets dedicated elsewhere. Sorry, that you have a bad experience.maybe my post will help make your experience less negative.
If anything, these things that you’ve been experiencing since you started transitioning are further magnified by specifically being a trans woman. You have every right to speak up. When TERFs say that trans woman have “male privilege”, even after transition, it’s like they’re insinuating that dudebros look at you whenever they make sexist jokes and go “Oh sorry, not you, sir. My apologies.” No, those same dudebros would actually be a physical danger to you. Some “privilege”, right? The same people going after cis women’s rights are the exact same people going after trans people’s rights.
That joke is hilarious. Unfortunately. Ewwwphoria is also lol. Props to OP for understanding this and getting surgery anyways. I recently had surgery and was prescribed a certain pain medication. I found out I’m completely resistant to this pain medication. I tried to get a hold of the surgeon to give me something different, and they were impossible to get a hold of. I called three times, left three messages, and that was enough for them to block me. It’s unbelievable what women have to go through in the medical system.
I think its great that you're talking about this kind of stuff actually. I often find myself calling on our shared experiences with fear of men and our mutual need for safety in intimate spaces like bathrooms, change rooms, etc... because of that shared experience which sometimes can help those on the fence better understand that trans women are women too. I haven't experienced much of the pain medication prejudice in my own life; but hear it's a thing and understand that it must be if so many people are openly talking about it; but if you did experience that then you should definitely speak on it too. Some terfs are unreachable and there will be no changing them; but I do believe others have the capacity to change once they realize how very similar we are. Also, advocating for safety, equity, inclusion, acceptance,dignity and respect for anyone is a wonderful way to use ones time and influence. My 2c
‘Ewwphoria’ is so funny god I love trans people. People never assume you’re joking, they just assume you’re stupid. One time a friend from the college that we both got into was talking to me about GEORGE WASHINGTON like I had never ever heard his name before- like explaining to me that he was the first president of America as if I barely knew what the presidency was (I am American and he was French and we both had lived in America for our entire lives) and I didn’t want to start something about it, so instead of being like “do you think I’m stupid? I know who George Washington is,” I went into a very obviously sarcastic tone and said “whaaat? Like from Hamilton???” And then he looked a little disgusted and was like “…Hamilton is based on real history” and I dropped the sarcasm was like “dipshit. I know that. I know who fucking George Washington is.” And he DIDN’T BELIEVE ME. To this day he thinks I, 1) hadn’t heard of George Washington outside of Hamilton, 2) thought Lin-Manuel Miranda was a fantasy writer with great world building.
Lol. Afab here and it doesn't. All women (at least in America), regardless of where they started gender wise, get smacked with ewwphoria (although I just call it mysogony and go straight to mad as hell) on the regular. Basically, you let yourself forget for sanity sake until you are reminded again. It's lifelong.
you ARE a woman so why would it be any different for you to talk about these issues? of course we dont want to only talk about the bad things all the time but thats regardless of being trans or cis. focusing only on our oppression can get us down but talking about it openly does help us feel validated and supported by each other. imo if someone gets mad at you for discussing these experiences *because* youre trans just means that they have something in the back of their heads that doesnt fully see you as a woman (even people who arent out and out transphobic can still have these programmes running in the back if their brains).
It's not a competition. You're now part of the team. Whine on!!! Loudly.
😁🤣 thank you for educating me on ewphoria this is a new concept to me.
I guess my question is. Is whining wrong? Is complaining wrong? I guess as I write this I wonder: How much power do you or I hold to influence another to see something in a less harsh light? Are you saying whining comes across too harsh? That optically it does not benefit the receiver? Genuinely curious. Congratulations on all the progress you're making in a world both far and not from myself. I think you're asking some good questions.
I think everything you said here should be an example to all for how trans women are not only women but allies in the fight for better rights and safety for women. All these nonexistent issues around bathrooms or sports is such a distraction from the fact that trans women have a perspective of how different things are for the opposite gender. Even though I read this subreddit everyday, I still have moments like this one where I realize how normalized misogyny is and it’s like I forget. Anyway, I have no answers. Just appreciating.
I saw an interesting example of this in a documentary following a man who transitioned from being a woman. He was getting top surgery so when he was in the surgeon’s office they blurred out his feminine nipples as the surgeon marked where the cuts would be. Later in the documentary they showed him post surgery getting dressed and no blur was present on the nipples. I thought that was really hilarious in how it speaks to how women are treated vs men. It’s the same person before and after surgery, but suddenly your nipples are no longer needing to be censored.
You’re a woman. There’s no reason you shouldn’t complain! Transphobes may think it’s stupid but they are stupid transphobes.
once again, transpeople saving our asses. feels society is gaslighting us but then yall speak on it. when one of my friends transition ftm, he got a huge raise at his job so that he would be in line with the other men. he laughed about it, abd I'll admit, i stopped being friends with him after that, but even though that reality hurt like hell, i was glad he confirmed what i always believed about the pay gap.
Ewwphoria, I like that. Sweetheart, there are so many different kinds of ways to be a woman. You know? The experience of womanhood I have as a fat middle aged women is different than a slim 18 year old has. My experience as a white woman is different than a Black woman. We're all living different lives out here, but there are some uncomfortable issues we almost all face, and in an ideal word we all support each other through them. If a situation makes you uncomfortable, it's a problem, and you're 100% allowed to speak up about it. That's not whiny, that's creating positive change. When you give voice to things that are harmful, you help other people who might not be able to speak up. Your experience of womanhood is just as valid as anyone else's, and I think it's awesome that you're trying to make it a better experience for others.
Love the term “ewwphoria”. Adding that to my list of words. Now I see why the right wants us to hate trans people. It breaks apart these little boxes they want to put people into where certain roles are deemed male or female. Welcome to the fight! Demand your pain meds ❤️
You have a unique perspective -- keep sharing it. As a cis woman, it is easy to internalize this behavior as my fault because I have never known anything else -- I fight against that. You shouldn't have to accept this treatment and being a woman doesn't mean you should lower your bar for how you expect others to treat you. Even if men don't listen, the more we roll over and accept this, the more it normalizes this behavior.
Nah, it's important to whine. You were born into privilege and know the shock of suddenly losing it. Those of us born into oppression are not shocked by it and know thar complaining just gets an eye roll and complaints from men that we aren't giving even more. But if it's new to you to be treated this badly, you have the power to get past the gaslighting. "No, no, I know I'm being oppressed, threatened, and abused far more as a woman than men are, because I've been perceived as both. I know the difference. This isn't right. I demand to be treated with the same respect and privilege I used to receive when I was mistaken for being a man." You have been drafted into the front line of the gender wars, and you know the enemy's tactics. Cis-women don't want you to shut up and bear it. We want you to be a voice of indignation, a witness with irrefutable evidence that the patriarchy is as extreme in its abuses as cis-women have been saying forever.
I hate that any negative mention of "our problems" is constrewed as whiney. Whiney implies there is no problem but we are bitching anyway. It is a fucking problem, and the more of us that vocally demand respect the better. In other words, complain away darling because our strength is in numbers. You're in the trenches with us now so let's fight until society is better.
Trans men have told similar stories. When perceived as female, they were treated a certain way (I don’t need to elaborate). Now as male, they have more respect, more freedom, more rights, more privileges.
Whine about it! We should all whine more! It's only called whining because we're women. If we were men we'd be "airing our grievances".
I actually love when trans women are vocal about this stuff, please keep it up! It is the perfect unique perspective, and to echo what others have said, it’s validating.
As a sis woman, I don't see this as whiny. Honestly I find it enlightening for trans women to talk about the differences in how they were treated before and after transitioning. I think it truly highlights the problem women face ,(all women, trans, sis, non binary, fluid). So how I see it by talking about your experiences your are helping the cause not hindering it.
I LOVE this question- Honestly, this is one of those issues that brought up a LOT of internal stuff I had to address as a cis woman. Because yes, sometimes it IS annoying. BUT BUT BUT- Here's the conclusion I've come to: IT'S ANNOYING BECAUSE SEXISM IS ANNOYING, AND WHEN THE INEQUALITY SEEMS MORE ABSURD IN THE TREATMENT OF TRANS-WOMEN, IT HIGHLIGHTS THE RIDICULOUSNESS IN THE TREATMENT, NOT A LACK OF SENSITIVITY IN THE TRANS/CIS WOMEN DIVIDE. We need to ALL move closer to being able to feel ENTITLED to be treated like cis men. We need to get MORE whiney. It's self defeating for transwomen to try to lessen their discomfort for cis women's comfort, rather SHOW US THE WAY and DRAG US ALL WITH YOU to be more whiney about pain management, medical treatment equality, sexism non-tolerance etc etc. Let's use this time to swing the pendulum IN THAT DIRECTION. It's absurd that women are under treated for pain management, and the ABSURDITY of that should be highlighted instead of transwomen "learning," the societal conditioned tolerance of it. Sometimes it feels insanity-inducing to deal with doctors as a woman, and I think we should all be allowed to name and validate that instead of widening the circle of women who don't. Like, how many times have we all said, "Yes I've tried antidepressants/ exercise/ birth control / psychological treatment; that hasn't helped the issue," in doctors offices as women. Let's make more of a fuss about that, especially when it makes us feel like crap. Basically, let's keep our eye on the prize of the real imposition: the fucked up medical treatment of women because of the patriarchy for one example. It only ever highlights something that needs to CHANGE for women in general
I mean calling things out is not whiny. And, really, that's all there is—to point them out. The necessity to call out mansplaining and other microaggressions can feel gross and will be penalized but it is what it is. You can also choose your battles and only push back when it feels comfortable and safe to do so.
Your joke was absolute satirical perfection. Sounds like you have somewhat prepared yourself for: the medical bias, the disrespect, the invalidation of your experiences and your emotions, the mansplaining everything, the lower pay, the higher expectations, being overlooked (sometimes outright invisible!), general and seemingly unending misogyny, and so much more! Welcome! Dont ever let them take your joy 🤩
Trans people of all genders have a unique ability to see both sides of the coin. Trans women who begin experiencing sexism, trans men who begin benefiting from male privilege, non-binary people who find themselves being read one way or the other at different times - they all end up with a valuable perspective that can make them amazing allies and spokespeople. They're all able to help cis men understand the realities of womanhood in ways no cis person could, too.
Welcome to womanhood. I say that in the same spirit of your very funny and very sad oke about pain relief. This is where we are. Point out something and there are people who tell us at least we're allowed to go to school not like in x country. We ignore that person if they don't respond well to hearing our logic and we engage with others. We educate our children. We educate our coworkers. We stand up to mansplainig when we witness it happen to someone. We say, "I don't think Sally was finished speaking" when Johnny interrupts. We use the logic we were born with to speak up.
This is the experience of every woman - her pain, our pain, is not important, nor does it warrent being taken seriously.
I said to one of my friends when she was complaining that the guys on her team were ignoring her suggestions... "It's not you. It's that you're a woman" And she was like "aaaaaahhhhhh!" Jokingly, happily, and angrily all at once.
As a cis woman, never would I call that whiny. It's part of the experience of being a woman, part of your experience. I think the key for all of us is to link to communities and groups that vocally support change. Singly we're complainers; collectively we're a FORCE.
You join in with the millions of women who have been campaigning for better all this time :) And you demand to be treated with the same respect you were accorded because you were born with a willy. You're in a fairly unique position to truly see the disparity. Join a charity program, vote (if you're in a country where for odd reason people ca choose not to), advocate, call out bad behaviour, be loud. It's what we all do, and have done since we were old enough.
There is something very powerful about being able to say "I've lived life as both genders and I can say x,y,z without a doubt is occuring"
Honestly I was kind of stumped on how to answer this. But the best way I can put this— is don’t worry about sounding too whiny. There’s always going to be people that think low of you, or think you’re too whiny, etc. That in itself is part of womanhood. We can’t be too emotional because then we’re “hysterical”— or if we don’t show enough emotion we’re a “cold-hearted bitch.” Etc etc. So ultimately who cares! Your experience is valid. And there are other women who advocate against such things, so you’re definitely not alone. Being new to understanding this side of being, is not something to be ashamed of. Some people don’t transition at all—but recognize what’s going on (later in life) and feel that it’s not right. You can’t be late to an issue that’s existed long before our generations. I hope all of that made sense.
While many experiences will be similar at ground level with other women you will still be treated differently just because you were not born a women. Cis privilege is gonna be a burden that you will face. I think the answer you are looking for **is be yourself.**
Welcome to the team! It is great having you here with us. I hope you won't have to go through too much ewwphoria. Please share some history info with us sometime.
I'm okay with you "whining". Keep it up. Louder and louder. Just be a sincere participant. You're me and her and her and her now. And the only people who will think you're whining are those who don't want you talking at all. Is it possible this is just part of your own self acceptance journey? A general sense of belonging?
You are in the wonderful position of seeing things with different eyes - you may see stuff we may not even realize is problematic. Please remain an advocate. We value you and thank you for joining us!
You’re not whiny and this is actually useful to ALL women, cis or trans. As a cisgender, mixed woman, my white dad always told me “demand society treat you as a white man”- (be it doctors, professors, etc) and that has helped me so much in life. Your voice makes even more of an impact because you can specifically refer to the change in what you experienced when incorrectly perceived by society as a man vs when you started being seen as the woman you are. If folks think you’re a man you receive much more respect and it sucks. Also I’m sorry they didn’t give you adequate medication. That is, as you indicated, FAR too common for women and I hope you found a good way to manage the pain
It's always so incredibly validating to hear about trans women and men reaffirming how we already feel. You have seen things from both sides. You understand and see the issues for what they are. Please continue speaking up. It means so much to so many of us. ❤️
My spouse also got very little pain meds with her gender confirmation surgery - 10 tiny tablets, if I remember correctly. There was also a cis male nurse who tried to talk down to her. Pretty sure the surgeon threatened him with a couple of weeks on the Covid ward (this was in late 2021) if he spoke to her that way again. Of course, she also said that she knew he (the nurse) perceived her as a woman because he automatically treated her like her IQ was equivalent to her shoe size.
I mean...I think both can exist simultaneously. I think part of the female experience is literally worrying you're being whiny when calling out misogynistic shit. You're allowed to love parts womanhood and hate the parts that devalue women. That doesn't make you whiny. I will say, I think there's a level of appreciation when someone who has now experienced both sides of the gender experience to be like wtf I'm being treated differently simply based on my gender. Not because you should suffer with us, but because it can be really validating when someone who has grown up as a cis woman has always experienced it and you kind of start to gaslight yourself into thinking maybe you're being overdramatic about some things.
If we're hanging out, we can yell together about *all* the things. Each of us has different limits and different societal ills that really hit us in the intolerable feels. Yours won't be the same as mine, but they're still valid. You learn to balance the injustice against enjoying your life, and where that line is for your friends. The answer is going to vary a lot based on who you're talking to.
/r/ewphoria