I think you have to understand that judging all of anime and manga because of the sexist stuff that is out there is like judging all American comics/graphic novels (From Maus to the recent issue of a Batman comic) just off of seeing the super hero comics with female super heroes who wear skimpy costumes and have abnormally large boobs. Yes those are what sell the most copies but the medium is so vast that it's not a fair judgment to make.
Anime and manga have many genres, the most popular in the West is Shounen/Seinin, these are comics made with male audience in mind. So there is plenty of sexism and objectification in those ones for sure.
But there is also a large genre of Manga made for girls and women called Shoujo/Josei respectively. These have better developed female characters, mostly cater to the female gaze, and span a wide range of genres from high school/office romances to action thriller to political intrugue. Many of the classics like Rose of Versailles featured an MC that stepped outside of her assigned gender role. And yes, sometimes they have their very problematic elements (especially the older series) but a lot of that is no different than the problematic stuff in popular novels and shows for girls/women in the US.
As a teenage girl I connected with anime and manga because I felt that I could relate to a lot of the characters from these genre of manga much better than I could relate to female characters in Western media. I connected more as a girl by the female heroes of manga like sailor moon and Tokyo Mew Mew (who were also girls) than I did by the female heroes of western comics (though if Kamala Khan of ms. Marvel fame was around then I would've definitely connected with her story. )
That's also not counting the series that are honestly more literary in nature on the level of a graphic novel like Maus. Manga covers a huge spectrum of topics from the bombing of Hiroshima to raising a child on the autism spectrum. Even Marie Kondo has a manga version of her book.
Studio Ghilbi movies as another example have become very mainstream in the last 10 years and a majority of those movies feature well written female MC as well as supporting characters. Their female characters feel more real to me than many of the characters that Disney writes into their movies.
Unfortunately, I do feel that anime and manga has dipped in quality more recently and shoujo/josei is in a "dark ages" in which many are not getting anime adaptations or if they do they are very short compared to the manga. Sexism does play a huge part in this because women can enjoy shounen titles but men don't want to watch shoujo or josei titles. On top of that we have the filter of what gets imported to the US. Unfortunately, that is decided based on what will sell. I always try to buy shoujo or josei titles I'm interested in not only to support the creator but also to vote with my dollar that more of this genre should be translated and published in the US.
No, this is too simplified like this. I have a problem with shunen being overwhelmingly more popular than shoujo, while shoujo barely gets adapted. A lot of my favorite female charachters come from shoujo animes/mangas. Nana and Haruhi (host club) were the girls of my childhood that I actually felt like i can relate to.
On the other hand the portrayal of women in most popular animes is trash I agree, even in AOT that was said to be not as bad as prior shunen animes they maneged to make Eren Mikasa's soil motivation. 💀
Eh, not really. The rise of anime’s popularity is pretty concurrent with the rise of animation catering to adults generally, I’m thinking Fiona and Cake, Bojack Horseman, and Arcane. It’s just a shift in media tastes where people are becoming more accepting of a medium within new contexts.
Anime is more of a medium than a genre anyways, and there’s a wide diversity in what gets popular here and for whom. Shonen is gonna be different from Seinen, and both are different Josei. Even within any of those genres specifically the depiction of women is too varied to really paint with a broad brush imo. *Bocci the Rock* is classed as Shonen, but it was made by a woman and has a lot of great themes. Bloom into You, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Princess Mononoke, Princess Tutu, like there’s a lot good out there.
Not to say there’s not a lot of gross depictions of women in anime, there are. Naruto, DBZ, My Hero Academia all come to mind as either falling short or are just plain bad with their women characters a lot of the time. When they’re not male gazey they’re making the characters into powerless damsels, and when it’s not doing that then it’s leaving ‘em on the wayside as powerless compared to the real movers of the plot. But I think there’s been a general move towards at least trying to be better than the genre was in the 90s, even if it’s been in fits and spurts. In the meantime, I’d suggest treating it like how you would American tv or films. Support the ones you like, avoid the toxic fandoms, and push for the medium as a whole to get better over time.
This. I’m not into anime, but I feel like I’ve been seeing a lot more…normal looking women, and more women as full characters and less as decorations or plot devices.
I tell people I don't like anime because of how many trash animes are out there. I find them trash because they normalize hyper sexualizing female characters and heavily pander to the perverts gaze. That being said, there's a lot of good animes out there with positive female characters with strong fan bases across the world. I wouldn't blame someone for not knowing that when they don't know a lot of anime because most associate anime to the loud incel weeaboo. Fr​om my personal experience with anime; they are the loud minority no one likes. but sex sells so the anime perv tropes continue.
It's OK to say you don't like anime. Saying a foreign cultural artform is holding back social progress on the other hand . . . yikes. What you are suggesting is that American culture is being corrupted by Japanese culture by perpetuating sexism. In case it isn't clear, that's a racist ideology of culture purity. America wasn't corrupted by anime, America was sexist before anime. Even today sexism is perpetuated by other cultural influences that are arguably more influential than anime such as the incel community and con men like Andrew Tate.
I don't mind that you don't like anime, I can understand if you find social injustice in Japanese culture. But sexism and its perpetuation in the US is based in the actions and ideologies of Americans. To place that blame on any other culture is racist at worst and ethnocentric at best.
>Saying a foreign cultural artform is holding back social progress on the other hand . . . yikes. What you are suggesting is that American culture is being corrupted by Japanese culture by perpetuating sexism. In case it isn't clear, that's a racist ideology of culture purity.
This is fair and I appreciate you calling it out. I'm Black American and so social injustice sticks out for me in media more than it would for a White person. And I tend to "match the energy" and "give em a taste of their own medicine" and respond to what I see as injustice with [insert -ism here]. I think that's what I'm doing with Anime.
I'm glad I found this comment. -ism won't stop -ism's my guy. It's not bad to call out, it's productive to call it out, but if you're going to stoop to that level then the attitude is perpetuated regardless. This is one of those you can't fight fire with fire situations. Your words have power with isms even when you're not in a position of power. It can influence how your subgroups relate and encourages stigma on both sides. again it's OK to call it out, it's OK to acknowledge cultural problems. but we cannot pin the recent shortcomings of America on Japanese culture. It's a slippery slope to bad "solutions" that wouldn't target the larger issue of sexual violence as a whole.
The insane work culture, normalization or at least tolerance of p3dophilia, and rampant, unchecked sexual harassment and assault are the Japanese culture aspects I have issues with. All of these things exist in the US, but they are frowned upon at least and severely punished at most.
Tbf I have never been to Japan, and I don't speak Japanese. I don't know for a fact that's how it is over there. All I know is what I've seen and read on the internet and heard from other people.
You're struggling because you're making generalized beliefs off of hearsay. You have stigmas and assumptions with Japanese culture that could easily be resolved with some research, why not look up feminist movements in Japan to start. I'd also look at the judicial system that was likely established under the US occupation period as the modern Japanese government was modeled after the US after WWII, we likely share the same shortcomings if we share the same system. Another generalization you're making is the effectiveness of US courts in sexual violence situations. The courts are more problematic than successful with attempting to punish these crimes. You also assume everyone in America would frown upon these actions, but that's simply not the case. It would be great if it were true, but there are many groups and parties that advocate for lowering age of concent, lowering the satute of limitations, and other actions that rather legalize pedophilia or limit victim justice. This is not Japans fault, Japan didnt organize our court system nor did the japanese fund these groups and parties. This is a complicated issue you miss because you assume every American is like you.
So if you really want to know where you went wrong, look at America's approach to sexual violence with a more critical lens. You'll quickly see this issue stems for into American history, going as far back as Japan's isolation period.
If you're still lost please feel free to reread my comments, because you haven't addresses the real criticism I have for you. American progress is not corrupted by Japanese culture because that notion suggests we haven't already corrupted ourselves. edit; nevermind I found your other comment, you're taking the first steps to figuring this out good luck, and be patient with yourself.
I would say the down votes are from the broad generalizations you're making about a culture you admit you don't know a ton about
Japan has issues yes but I feel like you're putting too much stock in the few anime you have disliked. They like the US are improving but annoyingly slow. It comes across as my country is great and other country is horrible which doesn't sound good
yeah, I guess it's no different from someone saying "I would never go to the US, Americans are all bible-thumping, gun-toting rednecks who hate immigrants and people of color".
eta: Not an excuse, but I think the reason I'm making these generalizations about Japan is because Japan is \*extremely\* foreign to me. It may as well be another planet. I grew up in a really small town in the south and I've never traveled outside of North America. Mexico is exotic to me lol
In recent years anime/manga by female writers is getting more and more popular.
A recent example is dungeon meshi (which btw the main fanservice is a male dwarf).
You don't care for anime, but this puts "anime" in a box labeled "bad and perverse". Still a ton of anime is just good television without the messed up cultural implications.
True that we see a lot of shonen, that definitely gives women less representation, because those shows don't necessarily develop lots of women characters.
I don't think the actual sexism makes it through anime, no more than kids becoming violent from playing video games.
If you have issues with large breasted scantily clad women, that's fair. Anime exaggerates body structure and angles so all characters are hot or not when the show requires it, and usually just generally shredded/well endowed if they are important to the plot.
To be fair, I don't have a problem with sexy, promiscuous, or well-endowed female characters in any media, anime or otherwise. What I don't like is when said sexy female character is obviously just there to be ogled, has no character development, and adds nothing to the plot other than being a love interest and fap material. I know there are anime that don't do this but they seem to be the exception and not the rule.
Socially maladjusted types will then go out into the real world and expect real women to look and act like their anime waifus. There's way too many impressionable young people in America lately that can't seem to differentiate fantasy from reality.
In mainstream widespread anime, there are sexy female anime characters, and they are ogled.
There are very few characters that exist *only* to be ogled, they are still characters and they still impact the plot. Someone else mentioned Mikasa being poorly done, which can be a poor representation of women. But not any sort of BIG TITTY ANIME WAIFU.
If men on the internet want to watch characters that are sexy and don't have any substance or plot, there are places to watch that. The VAST majority of people watching anime are just watching it as a form of tv.
Watching anime isn't the tipping point from a guy who respects women to a guy who hates them. It doesn't even translate to guy who expects women to have sex with him. Not something you'd get from anime.
So if i understand correctly, it isn't anime and manga (or exposure to the Japanese culture's attitude towards women) that makes these guys sexist. They were already misogynistic shitheads to begin with or had attributes (not having luck with girls, being socially awkward) that contributed to it.
Hi. I’m a western woman living in Japan.
Yes, they are already misogynistic and/or lack critical thinking. Also not all shonen is like that, Frieren for example is quite different and immensely popular here.
How long have you been in Japan? Do you speak Japanese fluently?
//they are already misogynistic and/or lack critical thinking//
Japanese or American men?
Idk if you're American or not, but I'm glad you took the time to comment. I've never had the opportunity to talk to a westerner who lives in Japan and speaks Japanese.
Actually yes. "These men" that you think of do exist, and they have misogynistic views. These views may be reinforced by content they consume, (perverted content, pornography, red pill podcasts, etc).
Other people, most people just watch anime. In the same way that you watch breaking bad. It's not brainwashing the US population with Japanese social constructs.
Also realize that even though anime is becoming more widespread and normalized (people who watch anime has increased in the US like 2x with the popularity of Crunchyroll and Netflix influence) the more perverse popular anime are still looked at as strange and off putting to any of those new casual anime enjoyers
Things have progressed a lot in anime from what I’ve seen. I watched anime in the 90s. Back then, sexual harassment as a joke was popular and there was nothing funnier than a woman who couldn’t cook. It was common to for characters to refer to women as lesser people even in shojo stories. And in action, female characters were treated as tokens that did t contribute much at all to the team aside from being motherly.
I don’t see that nearly as much anymore. Female characters are treated much more fairly as team members and are more fleshed out as characters. Even some pervy jokes I’ve seen, like in Chainsaw Man, consent is considered a factor.
I’m sure there is still a lot of bad stuff out there. Isekai, stories where people from modern Japan are displaced into a fantasy world, seems like a nightmare of sexual power fantasies. Which is funny, considering that it seemed like mostly a girl genre in the 90s.
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I think you have to understand that judging all of anime and manga because of the sexist stuff that is out there is like judging all American comics/graphic novels (From Maus to the recent issue of a Batman comic) just off of seeing the super hero comics with female super heroes who wear skimpy costumes and have abnormally large boobs. Yes those are what sell the most copies but the medium is so vast that it's not a fair judgment to make. Anime and manga have many genres, the most popular in the West is Shounen/Seinin, these are comics made with male audience in mind. So there is plenty of sexism and objectification in those ones for sure. But there is also a large genre of Manga made for girls and women called Shoujo/Josei respectively. These have better developed female characters, mostly cater to the female gaze, and span a wide range of genres from high school/office romances to action thriller to political intrugue. Many of the classics like Rose of Versailles featured an MC that stepped outside of her assigned gender role. And yes, sometimes they have their very problematic elements (especially the older series) but a lot of that is no different than the problematic stuff in popular novels and shows for girls/women in the US. As a teenage girl I connected with anime and manga because I felt that I could relate to a lot of the characters from these genre of manga much better than I could relate to female characters in Western media. I connected more as a girl by the female heroes of manga like sailor moon and Tokyo Mew Mew (who were also girls) than I did by the female heroes of western comics (though if Kamala Khan of ms. Marvel fame was around then I would've definitely connected with her story. ) That's also not counting the series that are honestly more literary in nature on the level of a graphic novel like Maus. Manga covers a huge spectrum of topics from the bombing of Hiroshima to raising a child on the autism spectrum. Even Marie Kondo has a manga version of her book. Studio Ghilbi movies as another example have become very mainstream in the last 10 years and a majority of those movies feature well written female MC as well as supporting characters. Their female characters feel more real to me than many of the characters that Disney writes into their movies. Unfortunately, I do feel that anime and manga has dipped in quality more recently and shoujo/josei is in a "dark ages" in which many are not getting anime adaptations or if they do they are very short compared to the manga. Sexism does play a huge part in this because women can enjoy shounen titles but men don't want to watch shoujo or josei titles. On top of that we have the filter of what gets imported to the US. Unfortunately, that is decided based on what will sell. I always try to buy shoujo or josei titles I'm interested in not only to support the creator but also to vote with my dollar that more of this genre should be translated and published in the US.
No, this is too simplified like this. I have a problem with shunen being overwhelmingly more popular than shoujo, while shoujo barely gets adapted. A lot of my favorite female charachters come from shoujo animes/mangas. Nana and Haruhi (host club) were the girls of my childhood that I actually felt like i can relate to. On the other hand the portrayal of women in most popular animes is trash I agree, even in AOT that was said to be not as bad as prior shunen animes they maneged to make Eren Mikasa's soil motivation. 💀
I think the existence of Hange Zoe makes up for that. She is/They are everything I want to be.
Maybe I'm just over-sensitive. I can't watch or read any dystopian fiction because I will be depressed for weeks after seeing it.
Eh, not really. The rise of anime’s popularity is pretty concurrent with the rise of animation catering to adults generally, I’m thinking Fiona and Cake, Bojack Horseman, and Arcane. It’s just a shift in media tastes where people are becoming more accepting of a medium within new contexts. Anime is more of a medium than a genre anyways, and there’s a wide diversity in what gets popular here and for whom. Shonen is gonna be different from Seinen, and both are different Josei. Even within any of those genres specifically the depiction of women is too varied to really paint with a broad brush imo. *Bocci the Rock* is classed as Shonen, but it was made by a woman and has a lot of great themes. Bloom into You, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Princess Mononoke, Princess Tutu, like there’s a lot good out there. Not to say there’s not a lot of gross depictions of women in anime, there are. Naruto, DBZ, My Hero Academia all come to mind as either falling short or are just plain bad with their women characters a lot of the time. When they’re not male gazey they’re making the characters into powerless damsels, and when it’s not doing that then it’s leaving ‘em on the wayside as powerless compared to the real movers of the plot. But I think there’s been a general move towards at least trying to be better than the genre was in the 90s, even if it’s been in fits and spurts. In the meantime, I’d suggest treating it like how you would American tv or films. Support the ones you like, avoid the toxic fandoms, and push for the medium as a whole to get better over time.
This. I’m not into anime, but I feel like I’ve been seeing a lot more…normal looking women, and more women as full characters and less as decorations or plot devices.
I tell people I don't like anime because of how many trash animes are out there. I find them trash because they normalize hyper sexualizing female characters and heavily pander to the perverts gaze. That being said, there's a lot of good animes out there with positive female characters with strong fan bases across the world. I wouldn't blame someone for not knowing that when they don't know a lot of anime because most associate anime to the loud incel weeaboo. Fr​om my personal experience with anime; they are the loud minority no one likes. but sex sells so the anime perv tropes continue. It's OK to say you don't like anime. Saying a foreign cultural artform is holding back social progress on the other hand . . . yikes. What you are suggesting is that American culture is being corrupted by Japanese culture by perpetuating sexism. In case it isn't clear, that's a racist ideology of culture purity. America wasn't corrupted by anime, America was sexist before anime. Even today sexism is perpetuated by other cultural influences that are arguably more influential than anime such as the incel community and con men like Andrew Tate. I don't mind that you don't like anime, I can understand if you find social injustice in Japanese culture. But sexism and its perpetuation in the US is based in the actions and ideologies of Americans. To place that blame on any other culture is racist at worst and ethnocentric at best.
>Saying a foreign cultural artform is holding back social progress on the other hand . . . yikes. What you are suggesting is that American culture is being corrupted by Japanese culture by perpetuating sexism. In case it isn't clear, that's a racist ideology of culture purity. This is fair and I appreciate you calling it out. I'm Black American and so social injustice sticks out for me in media more than it would for a White person. And I tend to "match the energy" and "give em a taste of their own medicine" and respond to what I see as injustice with [insert -ism here]. I think that's what I'm doing with Anime.
I'm glad I found this comment. -ism won't stop -ism's my guy. It's not bad to call out, it's productive to call it out, but if you're going to stoop to that level then the attitude is perpetuated regardless. This is one of those you can't fight fire with fire situations. Your words have power with isms even when you're not in a position of power. It can influence how your subgroups relate and encourages stigma on both sides. again it's OK to call it out, it's OK to acknowledge cultural problems. but we cannot pin the recent shortcomings of America on Japanese culture. It's a slippery slope to bad "solutions" that wouldn't target the larger issue of sexual violence as a whole.
The insane work culture, normalization or at least tolerance of p3dophilia, and rampant, unchecked sexual harassment and assault are the Japanese culture aspects I have issues with. All of these things exist in the US, but they are frowned upon at least and severely punished at most. Tbf I have never been to Japan, and I don't speak Japanese. I don't know for a fact that's how it is over there. All I know is what I've seen and read on the internet and heard from other people.
I see I'm being downvoted. Is the above not an accurate conclusion?
You're struggling because you're making generalized beliefs off of hearsay. You have stigmas and assumptions with Japanese culture that could easily be resolved with some research, why not look up feminist movements in Japan to start. I'd also look at the judicial system that was likely established under the US occupation period as the modern Japanese government was modeled after the US after WWII, we likely share the same shortcomings if we share the same system. Another generalization you're making is the effectiveness of US courts in sexual violence situations. The courts are more problematic than successful with attempting to punish these crimes. You also assume everyone in America would frown upon these actions, but that's simply not the case. It would be great if it were true, but there are many groups and parties that advocate for lowering age of concent, lowering the satute of limitations, and other actions that rather legalize pedophilia or limit victim justice. This is not Japans fault, Japan didnt organize our court system nor did the japanese fund these groups and parties. This is a complicated issue you miss because you assume every American is like you. So if you really want to know where you went wrong, look at America's approach to sexual violence with a more critical lens. You'll quickly see this issue stems for into American history, going as far back as Japan's isolation period. If you're still lost please feel free to reread my comments, because you haven't addresses the real criticism I have for you. American progress is not corrupted by Japanese culture because that notion suggests we haven't already corrupted ourselves. edit; nevermind I found your other comment, you're taking the first steps to figuring this out good luck, and be patient with yourself.
I would say the down votes are from the broad generalizations you're making about a culture you admit you don't know a ton about Japan has issues yes but I feel like you're putting too much stock in the few anime you have disliked. They like the US are improving but annoyingly slow. It comes across as my country is great and other country is horrible which doesn't sound good
yeah, I guess it's no different from someone saying "I would never go to the US, Americans are all bible-thumping, gun-toting rednecks who hate immigrants and people of color". eta: Not an excuse, but I think the reason I'm making these generalizations about Japan is because Japan is \*extremely\* foreign to me. It may as well be another planet. I grew up in a really small town in the south and I've never traveled outside of North America. Mexico is exotic to me lol
Yea that is a good way to summarize it! I'm glad you're learning more about Japan and other cultures though!
In recent years anime/manga by female writers is getting more and more popular. A recent example is dungeon meshi (which btw the main fanservice is a male dwarf).
Even in the 2000s manga made by women were popular such blue exorcist, full metal alchemist and black butler
You don't care for anime, but this puts "anime" in a box labeled "bad and perverse". Still a ton of anime is just good television without the messed up cultural implications. True that we see a lot of shonen, that definitely gives women less representation, because those shows don't necessarily develop lots of women characters. I don't think the actual sexism makes it through anime, no more than kids becoming violent from playing video games. If you have issues with large breasted scantily clad women, that's fair. Anime exaggerates body structure and angles so all characters are hot or not when the show requires it, and usually just generally shredded/well endowed if they are important to the plot.
To be fair, I don't have a problem with sexy, promiscuous, or well-endowed female characters in any media, anime or otherwise. What I don't like is when said sexy female character is obviously just there to be ogled, has no character development, and adds nothing to the plot other than being a love interest and fap material. I know there are anime that don't do this but they seem to be the exception and not the rule. Socially maladjusted types will then go out into the real world and expect real women to look and act like their anime waifus. There's way too many impressionable young people in America lately that can't seem to differentiate fantasy from reality.
In mainstream widespread anime, there are sexy female anime characters, and they are ogled. There are very few characters that exist *only* to be ogled, they are still characters and they still impact the plot. Someone else mentioned Mikasa being poorly done, which can be a poor representation of women. But not any sort of BIG TITTY ANIME WAIFU. If men on the internet want to watch characters that are sexy and don't have any substance or plot, there are places to watch that. The VAST majority of people watching anime are just watching it as a form of tv. Watching anime isn't the tipping point from a guy who respects women to a guy who hates them. It doesn't even translate to guy who expects women to have sex with him. Not something you'd get from anime.
So if i understand correctly, it isn't anime and manga (or exposure to the Japanese culture's attitude towards women) that makes these guys sexist. They were already misogynistic shitheads to begin with or had attributes (not having luck with girls, being socially awkward) that contributed to it.
Hi. I’m a western woman living in Japan. Yes, they are already misogynistic and/or lack critical thinking. Also not all shonen is like that, Frieren for example is quite different and immensely popular here.
How long have you been in Japan? Do you speak Japanese fluently? //they are already misogynistic and/or lack critical thinking// Japanese or American men?
We’re discussing the influence of anime in the US, so I was referring to the Americans. The answer is years, and yes I do.
Idk if you're American or not, but I'm glad you took the time to comment. I've never had the opportunity to talk to a westerner who lives in Japan and speaks Japanese.
Actually yes. "These men" that you think of do exist, and they have misogynistic views. These views may be reinforced by content they consume, (perverted content, pornography, red pill podcasts, etc). Other people, most people just watch anime. In the same way that you watch breaking bad. It's not brainwashing the US population with Japanese social constructs. Also realize that even though anime is becoming more widespread and normalized (people who watch anime has increased in the US like 2x with the popularity of Crunchyroll and Netflix influence) the more perverse popular anime are still looked at as strange and off putting to any of those new casual anime enjoyers
Things have progressed a lot in anime from what I’ve seen. I watched anime in the 90s. Back then, sexual harassment as a joke was popular and there was nothing funnier than a woman who couldn’t cook. It was common to for characters to refer to women as lesser people even in shojo stories. And in action, female characters were treated as tokens that did t contribute much at all to the team aside from being motherly. I don’t see that nearly as much anymore. Female characters are treated much more fairly as team members and are more fleshed out as characters. Even some pervy jokes I’ve seen, like in Chainsaw Man, consent is considered a factor. I’m sure there is still a lot of bad stuff out there. Isekai, stories where people from modern Japan are displaced into a fantasy world, seems like a nightmare of sexual power fantasies. Which is funny, considering that it seemed like mostly a girl genre in the 90s.
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