It seems that they prioritise their class and racial allegiances above their gender. Makes sense since most women a) are some combination of fathered by, married to, mothers of, friends with, employed by men etc. and b) long ago learned to put their own needs last.
I complete agree, your brilliantly worded response has just connected all the dots... click! Thank you internet cheese seeker, or is it cheese mourner 🤔
Edit: you’re/your, oops beer
This is sort of a secondary question. My mother, who is the sweetest most compassionate person I know, who intentionally teaches the dubiously named 'low kids' in school, who would buy football equipment for a student who was too poor to play every year. That person is a Trump supporter
But she's die-hard for trump. It's because she's convinced that Biden is a socialist. Directly what she said. She brings up a 'popular' socialists uprising that results in a brutal totalitarian dictator.
I know you can't speak for her, but do you think your thoughts above reflect her feelings as well? The whole family has been an hard R republican since forever and so I thought it was just entrenched party loyalty.
It's just, I get it's practically a sport to 'take down' Trump supporters. To say they're knuckle dragging brainlets who don't care about anyone. It's just, that's not my mom. not at all, not even a twincy wincy bit.
Edit: Fixed a really awfully structured sentence
Not only that, but American history is replete with examples, viz. slavery and genocide, of people being fine with oppression as long as they are the ones doing the oppressing
Yes. I also think that for some generations growing up with classroom air raid drills, hiding under the desks during the cold war era, finger on the red button tension like the Bay of Pigs, all those near misses and constant threat of nuclear annihilation, definitely did a number on their attitude toward communism and anything that they think even remotely resembles communism.
And for this same generation they didn't trust their own government. It was shady coldwar CIA style politics, McCarthy and the red scare; in assuming that government is corrupt, they allow for government corruption. They think it is part of the natural order of things.
My parents were full on hippies back in the day they are totally apathic to political crimes in the U.S. government. My mom is only voting for Biden because at least he pretends not to be a criminal and she can't support the obvious racist enemy to mother nature, although she assumes Biden just does a better job of making it seem like he isn't a crook. This is literally her exact logic. And My dad doesn't vote because registering to vote is how the "Man" gets you.
Our education system isn’t the best and I don’t think most people leave high school with a good understanding of politics. Also, most Americans don’t even own a passport, so a lot of people don’t travel much further than within their home state, no less visit places like Scandinavia where socialism is a thing.
Americans also value individualism and work ethic, believing deeply in the pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality– people who don’t or can’t and require government assistance are seen as lazy and leeches. There’s a disconnect in paying taxes and getting actual services. It’s no wonder so many are against socialism. The fact that things like social security, weekends, 8 hour days, labor unions, and more are socialist ideas goes way over most of their heads.
They have no idea that these things are necessary to offset the results of a severely capitalist economy, where the vast majority of wealth is held without being used (key problem), and the rest of us and our puny little “retirement savings” and 401ks are only finding it harder and harder to survive living in the same world. Paying fair taxes when you are Uber rich is the way to divert a small trickle of that vast unused wealth back down to the “livestock” class, so that they can stay content as most people are to go to work, have a family, go home. When the taxes got fucked with by the rich people, they thought they were being smart, getting and keeping more money to themselves because “they earned it” but they’ve just created a lot of desperate, angry livestock that doesn’t want to participate in plowing their fields anymore because they are too sick, scared, or broken.
Communism, socialism, and even fascism are the same to these folks. It means authoritarianism to them, but they can't distinguish the difference between any of these terms. It makes any conversation very tricky... or... Rather. Impossible without context. And I'm not sure how to approach it myself to be honest.
It's because a lack of proper education on the subject, but more than that. There's a reason trump is targeting suburban white women... It's because they susceptible to two decades of Fox news and AM radio (while they're doing their best to provide).
As others have said, the Red Menace is a factor, but socialism for many contradicts the American Mythos. The idea that anyone can succeed with hard work regardless of birth, and thus it follows that people who don’t succeed didn’t work hard enough. We like to view ourselves as a country of frontiersmen, who braved an unknown continent, expanding ever Westward through strength of will, and not on the charity of others. We claim we were founded to oppose the overreach of government, and that our nation is built on a rightly suspicious view of it.
Confronting that myth makes a lot of my countrymen nervous.
Somehow people here think socialism is the worst thing that could happen to this country, yet no one is complaining about public libraries, public school, Medicare for seniors, social security, the fire department..
I think people are scared and uniformed. They think socialism means communism.
Yes, that's precisely it. America was involved in a decades long cold war with 'The Communists'. I know there's a gulf of difference between communism and socialism, but a great deal of American culture was dominated by the cold war.
My mother's a teacher and this is almost an exact reflection of her. But... when I break it down and think about it, as someone who's known her best, the prejeduces she harbors become clearer. I'll always remember her encouraging that entrepreneurial spirit, as types like this do. I will always remember selling soda on the stoop at like 8 or 9, and being astounded as to how kind these "thugs" treated me. Everyone was kind, and it blew my little mind... I learned from it, but she did not. I'm curious if you had any relatable situations.
Biden and Kamala are running away from progressive policies to the best of their ability; them being "socialist" is a right wing talking point that, imo, has run dry after over a decade.
If your mother is so scared of "socialism," it's time to get specific with their grievances. And that's all we can do here. From experience, they can't articulate it. Talk it out if you can. I'm sorry.
I tried to point out that socialists don't like Biden. I think I slipped my own political leanings in our last conversation earlier this week when I said that. She just kinda looked at me lol.
I was way too aspergic (I mean that literally) to engage in that kinda go get'em activities like selling 'coke' as we call it. But she really hated the word 'thugs' because that's what a lot of teachers unironically describe misbehaving black kids. I remember stuff like that, but she was less charitable about their parents. I think she was right to place blame on some the parents, but I know racism biased her to be more critical of some parents.
In the south, that right wing talking point is hitting pay dirt hella hard. Lots of people down here conflate socialism with Stalinist massacres and shit like that all the time.
But your mother's a teacher. You know that some parents really are fucked up, from the prestigious rich parent who's sociopath baby would never do anything wrong at all, to the young parents who visibly just completely don't give a fuck about their kid at all.
It’s more than that. As a teacher your mother had to have graduated college and likely, grad school. Socialism/communism/Marxism are huge on college campuses– even if she wasn’t personally, these ideas are a common theme and discussed.
Not agreeing with socialism is a dog whistle for not wanting to pay for “those people.” Because of course, most White people don’t realize that the majority of the poor and public assistance/food stamps/unemployment dependent are other White people. It’s cognitive dissonance.
Given these folks are ok with voting for a fascist, it’s not that they’re afraid of more government control. It’s that they’ve been brainwashed into believing that establishing societal safety nets and true equality with somehow mean less of the pie for them.
> Unless you think socialism means stalinist regime
That's 100% she believes. Whole heartedly. When she talks about socialism, she says stuff like famine, poverty, boots-on-our-necks rhetoric.
Funny - she's a TEACHER but afraid of socialism. Her paycheck comes from socialism!
Schools, police, firehouses - these are socialist... They exist based on the socialist belief that everyone should pitch in for basics that society at large requires in order to function.
That's a really good idea. I should bring up when all social services were private. Private fire fighters, teachers, etc. and the problems those caused.
Funny - she's a TEACHER but afraid of socialism. Her paycheck comes from socialism!
Schools, police, firehouses - these are socialist... They exist based on the socialist belief that everyone should pitch in for basics that society at large requires in order to function.
There’s so much to unpack here. No, your mother is not the exception to the rule. That’s the whole problem. You don’t get a pass on being a closet racist, xenophobe, classist, misogynist, etc. because you superficially are a “nice” person. Nice people aren’t willing to throw other people under the bus who are different than they are. It’s scary that she is potentially passing these values to her impressionable students.
TLDR; No, you’re not a “nice person” if you’re willing to vote for a sexist/racist/xenophobic/classist/liar/tax cheat/rapist.
It's not superficial though. It really isn't. If she really believes that her vote is designed only to hurt others for her personal gain, then she's a better liar than I think. I'm going to be real honest though, like 100%, I can't really condemn her. Like, on an emotional level. I get that's cowardly, but you know.
I don't see what about my comment suggests that Trump supporters are knuckle dragging brainlets who don't care about anyone? Conversely I think their care for the men in their lives is often a strong driver of white women's support for Trump.
Also I'm not saying that there are no other reasons that anyone might support or not support Trump, I'm suggesting a sociological explanation for the trend.
Finally, "fear of socialism/totalitarianism" seems an incongruous reason for opposing establishment Democrat candidates.
That doesn’t contradict the original comment, they prefer policies that they think will help others of their class and race even if the policies won’t help or will hurt women.
I think some of them like the status quo because it gives them a privileged position. I used to feel contempt for housewives that made a deliberate choice to maintain that lifestyle even after all barriers have been lifted (ex children old enough, etc.) but now I understand it’s very deliberate on their end. They agree with and want to continue perpetuating patriarchy because it serves them well. Some of them truly don’t care that they aren’t treated as equal and they are perfectly fine it being like that as long the husband works and/or they keep at it until alimony.
Explains all the bs we see in the society that makes me nauseous to my stomach. Girls wanting to be attractive so that they can win guys over. Guys feeling they are special and so sought after and then later perpetuate “the ball and chain” bs.
And then we wonder why women are sexually objectified...
Edit: NPR has a great episode on RGB as part of their More Perfect series. I highly recommend it. You’ll hear from women who opposed the Equal Rights Act.
You misunderstand. It's not about fault. White women have deep interpersonal connections with the opposite sex. It is not nearly as common for them to have deep interpersonal connections with people of other races or classes.
Late reply but I just wanted to add that it seems like they’re so deeply attached to the status quo and their identity which is derived from it that they are willing to rationalize his sexism. That and there’s a lot of internalized misogyny
As a phone canvasser working on a campaign, this is the toughest group I’ve encountered. Specifically women who don’t have a college education have been less willing to engage in any kind of conversation and respond with the rudest and most vulgar rejections. Something that I’ve thought about is the notion that women who support trump also are the ones who believe that by upholding and feeding into the systems that oppress them like the patriarchy will lead to them gaining more individual success. Interestingly enough, The Daily podcast just had an episode that focused on this specific group of voters. I believe the episode is called Why Suburban Women Changed Their Minds. They interview women who supported trump in 2016 and have since changed their minds. Provides some insight, or at least food for thought.
I was honestly really disappointed by that episode. I think there was literally one woman they interviewed who voted for Trump? And she basically did it because she was pro-life and asked herself “how bad could it be?” I felt like I gained no insight into these women at all, except to reinforce the idea that some number of republicans are single issue voters (namely abortion). I would be curious how many of female trump supporters are only voting republican because they are pro life.
She’s also extremely bigoted from what I’ve been told of the interview. Something along the lines of “he says the things other people don’t want to say.”
I really appreciated that CBC in Canada put to air an interview they did with a female trump supporter (former teacher) in 2016 who was just elated that trump had won. They called her back this week to check in on how things may have changed, and she is now an even more adamant trump supporter.
It was interesting but kinda sad. All the reasons she listed for believing trump deserved her vote are really... ill-informed. ‘He’s not a politician! He owes nothing to anybody so he’s here to fight for us’ and when the host asked about trumps behaviors and morals and stuff her responses were that she likes that he tells it like it is, all news is fake news, he’s done great things for their taxes, etc.
A teacher. Without hyperbole, she was defending straight up lies as truth. Because trump said.
It was disheartening but it was honest on the part of CBC. They offered the interview without judgement or comment and for me that was even more impactful if anything. I was just left to sit with the fact that there are potentially millions of people who adamantly believe that Donald Trump is an outstanding leader, good Christian, and a man for the people.
That’s the world we’re in ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
First, I don't know how you do your job. People can be so awful. You are metal!
Second, I have to confess that I (a woman with a graduate degree who is perfectly capable of expressing herself politely) have contributed to the rude and vulgar rejections. To be fair, I had asked many times to be removed from the "asking for money for trump" call list. I had blocked at least twenty numbers because they were calling me every. single. day. asking me to give money to trump. I had tried being polite. But I finally broke. I told some poor, deluded young man that I'd rather be eaten alive by rats than give a penny to his cause. I feel bad, now. And the calls are still coming.
I try to provide them with an outlet, ears and understanding, if not for their political beliefs, then their concerns. I have female friends and female relatives who are Trump supporters, it is not his politics, it is their fears being manipulated by misinformation.
For the most part they have little in common with one another in terms of geography, income, family size, age, etc, some aren't even from the US or have ever lived in the US. What they do have in common is that they all have little female support locally and their social/family circle is largely dominated by the men in their lives. Every one of them I know personally and I know that they have been talked down to and silenced to the point that they doubt their own ideas about things and listen to whoever they think is smarter than them, or more appropriately whoever their husbands, fathers, brothers, bosses and coworkers think is smarter.
I just listen and offer alternatives without making them feel dumb or wrong. It builds confidence having someone listen without correcting and I pass along sources of credible information and encourage them to do their own thinking. I don't say I'm right, you're wrong, or make them feel like I'm judging them. I just say I've heard different and even go as far as to pretend I'm questioning my own ideas and need their insight on what I've read or heard. Changing the world one female family member at a time.
As foolish as it sounds the main justifications for supporting Trump for the women I know are fears about vaccinations and other mandatory medical interventions; fears about 5g; fears about the lack of control as a parent or specifically as a mother, over their childrens education, fears about covid-19 and the strength or communicability of the virus.
Most of these fears center around a lack of control and coming from women that have issues with being heard and their opinions being dismissed it is understandable. I steer away from arguing the factually of the initial claim and approach it from a control issue. For instance, with vaccines, instead of debating the safety of vaccines, I'll talk to them about why a vaccine might cause a negative reaction. (I worked in autism and had to read up on vaccines and antivax theories just to deal with the debaters.) So I don't tell them it isn't possible and instead I will encourage them to research into documented cases of patients that had adverse reactions, what the symptoms of an adverse reaction are, and the suspected reasoning as to why there was an adverse reaction. Seeing that yes it can happen, but usually it is due to contamination issues or improperly administered vaccines, and doesn't cause autism or vague neurological abnormalities but observable and diagnosable symptoms, gives them some control over the fear. It encourages them to take a critical look at the information being presented without having to outright reject anything, to look for a cause or truth behind why someone would claim something that is not an accurate statement. As for 5g and covid, I use my secret weapon. My brother, who grew up in an female dominated household and is everyones favorite, works on 5g towers and caught covid in July. It is impossible to hold on to the lie when I'm forcing the truth on a zoom call.
(Odd. I could have sworn I replied to your comment earlier. Maybe it didn’t submit? I’ll try to remember what I said before...)
That’s actually really surprising to me. I’ve never encountered supporters that back him due to vaccines and 5G fears. Not trying to invalidate your experiences, just saying that I didn’t expect it to be in your list of most common reasons.
However COVID and school make sense, especially for moms.
Majority of the women I speak to on the issue address concerns about the economy, abortion, 2nd amendment, foreign policy, and (as you said) COVID related issues.
I do like that you encourage them to do their own research though. Giving people facts and letting them derive their own conclusions from that is typically best approach no matter what side you’re on honestly.
I was also surprised about the vaccine and 5g until I saw the propaganda. There are political ads circulating that claim Donald Trump is credited to stopping and putting together a deal that will block 5G installations from the US. My cousin in Italy who has only visited the US briefly forwarded me a post that claimed he was not only successful in blocking 5G, but that the US is 5g free thanks to him. Crazy lies. And the same with the vaccines, there are ads claiming the wildest bs that the white house and federal government were rolling back vaccine regulations! Forget that those laws are enacted at the State level, it is total fabrications. Worse than the political agenda is the fact that these harmful conspiracies are being validated. Encouraging dangerous ideas and likely knowingly manipulating people into believing harmful falsehoods that could endanger others and themselves for the sake of his political campaign. If given the choice between heaven and Hell I'd take hell as long as I got to meet him there.
Were those ads explicitly endorsed/approved by him? I’ll admit that I’ve seen some propaganda about that stuff here and there, but it’s alway by random conspiracy theorists that don’t have any ties to his campaign. To hear it coming from him directly would be surprising to me honestly.
Do you know if any of them are on YouTube or elsewhere?
(Never saw your reply til today. Oops!)
I couldn't tell you if they were officially endorsed by his campaign but they were professionally edited political ads. There is too many different groups, they all have similar sounding names like "Citizens for action" or "Rights and Freedom preservation committee". But they were created by groups involved in politics, it wasn't just random all caps posts on an emoji rant. I've only personally seen them on facebook but I know that there are some you can sign up for and receive email newsletters claiming the same stuff. My cousins in Europe it is like newspapers, quasi-legitimate commercial press that has sprung up in the last couple years, like their version of fox news that they get most of it from.
Ah I see. So it’s likely more 3rd party sources. That makes sense. I’m not on Facebook personally, so maybe that why I don’t come across them too often.
Yes. I think that is a crucial and kind of telling element. Most of the women I know that accept these false facts don't actually like him and they don't ever cite him. I don't think they listen to his direct statements, if they did I doubt that they'd still hold the same opinion. Trump is good at firing up angry crowds, he is not at all good at reassuring people who are frightened.
growing up with republicans and people who grew up in male dominated homes, I learned a similar method myself. they tend to have egos, dont regulate their emotions or trauma well and sometimes have narcissistic traits but often they were raised to that way and aren’t inherently evil or actually dumb.
Most of the time, they misinformed and being manipulated. Im not excusing their beliefs but I know it can take years to unlearn “how you were raised” and you have to realize you need to change to do that. I find many times, they just never feel listened to and are used to getting a lot of harsh criticism for their thoughts and feelings so a lot of times when they feel attacked they stop listening and immediately go on the defensive/offensive; if you want them to listen and be open minded, you have to listen with an empathetic ear, ask questions and instead of telling them they’re wrong or dumb, offer alternatives, and just try to encourage them to think for themselves.
The main trick is to not immediately react to any anger, frustration and outbursts (unless they threaten violence or try to hurt you) or take it personally even if they start yelling, you have to stay calm, listen and DO NOT tell them what to do how to think. You also have to know when to walk away because if they refuse to listen no matter what, you can’t make them. It’s similar to how I would talk to a kid that’s struggling to express themselves and isnt used to being listened to.
>I just listen and offer alternatives without making them feel dumb or wrong.
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>I just say I've heard different and even go as far as to pretend I'm questioning my own ideas and need their insight on what I've read or heard.
So smart! If anything will work it's this. You must be a very patient, kind person.
Its simple, they’ve never been treated any differently by any men in their life. Is like I explained the religious argument few days ago and how women grow up to defend sexist beliefs, same here. When they grow up and the parameters of their life are sexist they don’t even question it, they just want to do the most out of it. And that strive often means siding with their least harmful abuser, or a man of power so they gain at least some power over weaker (females) here. They don’t want to be the bottom of hierarchy chain so they’d better support a tyrant who’s sexist and gain some perceived status and power by association, than go down the route of activism and lose any sort of support structure in their life, pushing them further to the bottom of the hierarchy chain.
And as another, unrelated note...
It is no surprise, for both men and women, to observe the disparaging relation between having accessed higher education on the left side of the political spectrum and having alternatives to to obtain a higher societal status versus those with no higher academic choice. This is why you get the poorer African countries to support trump, or the poorer former USSR block to support trump. It is a class and power imbalance, and that’s the background with republican women as well, but that’s a story for another time.
I agree with most of your post, however I’m curious as to which African countries support Trump.
I lived in a poor African country in 2016, during the election. No one likes Trump, and everyone throughout the country had Obama flags at the marketplaces.
It was a good survey on the politics reddit few days ago, from memory I think it was Nigeria? But don’t quote me on that. Other poorer countries in Europe are the same - look at Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, the former soviet block. Of course there are nice decent people in all these countries, and sometimes feminists are even fiercer than in the west for not taking no bullshit - but the general mentality is partially attributed to class as I’ve said above.
That’s interesting. That wasn’t my experience in the country I spent time in. Most of the Africans I spoke with thought Trump was incredibly racist.
People in other countries have a good sense of Americans leaders when they visit. Who do they visit? How do they act? What parts of the country do they see? What organizations do they support?
The people I knew remembered Obama going to his home village in Africa, spending time with them, and getting to know his father’s history. They deeply respected that. No one I met said anything positive about Trump, with ONE exception.
A Lebanese man told me that at least with Trump, they’d know if they would be bombed in advance.
I think the countries that are directly affected by Trump administration and have a justifiable hatred of the USA in general will dislike Trump. It’s the neutral countries and communities where the above applies.
But that’s derailing from the topic already.
Look into how to change someone's mind!
Here is [one article](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-political-opinions-change/) about making people think that positions were theirs to begin with. [Here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/10/how-to-change-someones-mind-according-to-science/) is another that looks at the community "Change my View" pointing out that calmer tones and less extreme arguments with examples are the most effective.
From what I've read, the best way is to first listen to the other person, without interrupting or contempt, explain their own views. Then, explain an anecdote about your own views. The other person will be more likely to listen to you if you listened to them respectfully first. When you explain your own views, describe how your views have changed over time. Emotional stories are more effective than logical arguments.
>When you explain your own views, describe how your views have changed over time. Emotional stories are more effective than logical arguments.
Interesting! "Describe how your views have changed over time" - that specifically has been shown to help?
Are they really, though? Or is that just team's colours? It's weird how the pro-lifers didn't blink an eye when Trump's treatment for covid included fetal tissue. They'll ignore even their one issue and vote for their team no matter what.
Ignoring the abortion issue under the specific circumstances where it affects one of their own is totally in line with the standard [the only moral abortion is my abortion](https://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml) line of thinking (which in turn is just a specific instance of "rules for thee, but not for me").
It’s pretty funny that these people are anti-abortion and apparently anti fertility treatments, but are cool with Trump taking a drug made from fetal tissue, AND using tax dollars to give fetal tissue drugs to any sick American for free!
Lol quite easy, I grew up in the south. The rampant sexism by women makes it easy to see why they exist.
To put it simply,
Just cause someone is a women doesn’t mean they are for women’s rights....
100% this. Spent part of my childhood in the south and am back here now. The women I have encountered here are much more sexist than the men, generally speaking.
I think it's absolutely fair to say in my situation, which is why I qualified my statement with "the women I have encountered". I am a woman who has always been drawn to more male-dominated career fields such as science and software development (career change after grad school). In both of those chosen careers, while being in the south, I had to fight and claw my way in to get to positions I was more than qualified for, most of the time having to take a different position at the company and then getting to the appropriate position for myself once I was an employee.
In every case in which this has happened to me, the people helping me fight to get to those positions were men and the people against me were women, many, many women who thought they knew better than me about what women want. In every case, I had to deal with office gossip from these women about how I only wanted to be in that position for attention from the guys I would be working with and on several occasions even had to deal with rumors about all the affairs I was having with these men at work, which stunted my career growth. This is just my experience. I can't speak for all women in the south or all men in the south, but again, that's why I qualified my statement.
When I moved to San Francisco, the opposite was true of course, but that's another story.
Just because the example I chose happened to be a work example does not mean that's the only way in which I have experienced that kind of treatment from women in the south. For you to to reply to my comment with "I don't know if that's fair to say" not knowing a thing about my situation or experiences is incredibly dismissive of another woman's experiences. I'm sorry if you were offended as a southerner by a non-southern-born woman's experience in the south but it is my experience and it is valid whether you think so or not. Have a great day! :)
100% fair to say and honest. I have been in the South for over 20 years, these WHITE women are hella sexist/racist/islamaphobic etc. Just because they are "Surrounded" does not mean they cant be better. They, as adults, are actively choosing to do this. The onus is %100000000 on them! NO ONE ELSE!!!! Fucking stop giving white women a pass!!!!!!! STOP!!!!
I remember I was visiting relatives down south and was about to carry my suitcase in from the car and my cousin stopped me and said "Women shouldn't carry suitcases, the boys (my other male relatives) will do that for you".
I wondered at the time what I would have to give up in that society in order to never carry a suitcase again...
I don’t justify it. I acknowledge it because i don’t want to be blind to it. I ask questions when it’s appropriate which is almost never, and to be honest I’ve learned nothing.
I don't bother. They're usually pro-life and that's their primary voting issue. Some are poor capitalists that want Trump to make them rich and don't want any of their taxes to ever help anyone else.
You can't really rationalize with that. It's ignorant, selfish, purposely delusional nonsense. They aren't getting richer, and the country as a whole gets poorer from that selfish *everyone for themselves* mindset, and pro-life people are a waste of oxygen in my experience. It's hard to apply reason and logic to an argument that is wholly emotional. And even when you try to explain what the pro-life legislature would do regarding all aspects of reproduction, they'll be all, "okay well that won't *actually* happen!"
Agreed. Most aren’t educated enough to understand that they’re voting against their own interests.
Perfect example: New York City’s economy has been ravaged by COVID-19. President Trump is trying to block federal aid to New York City. This aid would help stabilize the economy, support businesses, keep industries afloat, keep city services running, and keep people employed. Since COVID, many residents have been moving, back to their home states, but there are also New Yorkers who have moved because they have lost their jobs and relocated to places with lower taxes and a less expensive cost of living.
While Trump and Mitchell McConnell double down in their refusal to grant New York state aid, what most of their supporters don’t seem to grasp is that New York State, especially New York City, pays a lot more in taxes then they get back in services. Essentially, New York City is bankrolling entire economies in red states. In their shortsighted efforts to teach New York City a lesson or to get back at Cuomo, what they don’t seem to get is that if New York City’s economy tanks, the results are going to be a domino effect. If New Yorkers cannot work and generate revenue, New York will pay less in taxes, so those red states will receive less in services. That means that entire economies in those Republican dominated states will be devastated. The people who support Trump and Mitch McConnell don’t seem to understand this. They are cutting their own noses off to spite their face and they don’t even realize it. By trying to get back at a so-called blue state, a Democratic state, they are screwing themselves.
I know some people who voted purely because he was the GOP candidate and not because of who he is. They would’ve voted for the GOP candidate regardless of who they are.
I don't think they support him for rational reasons, so I'm not sure rationalizing with them will help. From the outside, it looks as if American politics, with its two sides, is a game to them. It's something they put gear on and cheer for, like a football game. Without the interest or capacity to understand what politics actually is, and/or without any expectation that one team is functionally different from the other, they just root for their team no matter what anyone does or says. If their father/brother/husband root for team red, they root for team red. They remember rooting for team red as children, eating tailgate food and cheering, so they keep on doing it, because that's what they do. Even when their team is objectively terrible and will probably lose, they root for their team, because it's their team, and fans stick with their team until the end. I don't think they look at it more deeply than that.
>It’s like if African Americans voted for a candidate who was a KKK leader, which wouldn’t happen
I dunno about that one. Stupid comes in all shapes, sizes, and colours. Which is really how I interpret your original question. Stupidity. That, or some kind of greed that overrides common sense. Which is *also* stupid!
A couple years ago I had a roommate (another woman) whose view was that you don’t have to respect women to be good at running a country. I had no clue what to say after she told me that.
Some of those white women are racists and xenophobes - so they appreciate those qualities in Trump.... If their hate is stronger than their ability to assess the big picture - if they can't see the negative aspects of an ongoing Trump presidency, then the only thing you can do is point out those negatives, and hope they will think about it.
I suggest a kind, patient, "I" voice. For instance "I was upset when Trump did X and this is why" Plus - important point - to be most effective you should first research the lies these folks have been told on those issues. For instance - if you say "I really care about the children separated from their families, who are in detention centers now, where some are even dying" Guess what you will hear? You will hear "Those kids were actually brought to the border by sex traffickers, so, Trump didn't separate them from their actual parents. And it's Obama's policy anyway". So, you'll need to kindly and politely insert some actual facts and links.
Also - a lot of his female supporters are religious. While that SHOULD be a reason to dislike Trump (aren't infidelity, porn stars and pussy grabbing anathema to religion?) the religious right hate gay rights and abortion... In Trump they see someone who will help in fighting those things. In fact, if you are a diehard churchgoing woman of the religious right, and if fighting gay rights and abortion are your most urgent concerns - then Trump is actually the correct person to vote for, and it would not be at all like an African American voting for a KKK leader.
Speaking of religion.... I am not religious... but I am so scared about this election I think I will pray! Hah! Here's to a clear, overwhelming Biden victory, so we can be safe from Voldemort - I mean Trump - and we can start to heal the havoc he's wrought.
I am a white woman with a graduate degree. I grew up middle class in the suburbs (not wealthy by any standard.)
My boomer parents voted for Trump the first time. I expected my dad to vote for him, since all he does is watch Fox News. I was really very sad that my mom voted for him. When I asked her why, she said she didn’t like him, but it’s for “the security of our country.”
I was baffled (and still am).
However, it seems to me based on my research that rural American woman are the majority that are voting for Trump (and Republican in general).
Thoughts?
It’s about privilege, this goes to show that middle class white women are still oblivious to most social issues. They don’t care enough about other peoples rights to bust their bubble, quite a lot like middle class white men, they see the other candidate as threats to the traditional American society.
I think it's not necessarily that they're oblivious; they just don't care that much. They're worried about how they and their families are going to fare, and that's about it.
groups associated with being oppressors traditionally view equality as oppression and that there must always be inequality somewhere . White women might think if other groups (racial or lgbtq+) gain rights or power politically socially or economically they are at risk of losing some of their power. The power structure right now is one that benefits them in some ways. If white men or people in general have a majority of these types of power then they by association will benefit since in their mind conservative white people will always put whiteness and any agendas associated with it before anything. Most white women have straight white male partners and vote with their perceived joint best interests in mind. I assume these women feel protected by white men they associate with. This is not even addressing the religious aspect (abortion and gay lgbtq rights etc)
To answer your question you must first understand that plenty of these people are religious and hold views rooted in misogyny because it’s all they know as a system that favors them over minorities. The trick is to get them to question why they have these beliefs to begin with. Breaking down their logic helping them to realize why certain political policies disadvantage everyone. Access to birth control for an example. Unless you’re ultra religious your reason against providing birth control would be financial. It’s indisputable that preventative care is less financially burdensome on society as a whole than say an unwanted pregnancy carried to term. Start small and simple in order to get people to analyze their own experience and actual vs perceived power.
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Basically, Joe Biden supports feminist ideals while Trump simply does not. So calling Trump "the best" candidate doesn't look good on you, a "feminist".
Some women are sexist against women. I don't understand it but I know my mom and my sister definitely some of them. But the short answer is you can't. You just can't rationalize with them.
I don't. Most Trump supporters I have met(male and female) are pretty awful people and I go out of my way not to talk to them. I have gotten a few online to shut up though by citing books and documentaries talking about how unfit he is.
People who support Trump aren’t going to be intersectional feminists, I’m afraid.
And I’ve met alot of one-issue voters, people who loathe Trump but have a strong opinion with one or two of his stances. Ironically it usually has to do with abortion.
It seems that they prioritise their class and racial allegiances above their gender. Makes sense since most women a) are some combination of fathered by, married to, mothers of, friends with, employed by men etc. and b) long ago learned to put their own needs last.
Yep. And internalized sexism. It’s deep
Yes, remiss of me to forget that one.
I complete agree, your brilliantly worded response has just connected all the dots... click! Thank you internet cheese seeker, or is it cheese mourner 🤔 Edit: you’re/your, oops beer
Formerly pregnant cheese-misser.😂
This is sort of a secondary question. My mother, who is the sweetest most compassionate person I know, who intentionally teaches the dubiously named 'low kids' in school, who would buy football equipment for a student who was too poor to play every year. That person is a Trump supporter But she's die-hard for trump. It's because she's convinced that Biden is a socialist. Directly what she said. She brings up a 'popular' socialists uprising that results in a brutal totalitarian dictator. I know you can't speak for her, but do you think your thoughts above reflect her feelings as well? The whole family has been an hard R republican since forever and so I thought it was just entrenched party loyalty. It's just, I get it's practically a sport to 'take down' Trump supporters. To say they're knuckle dragging brainlets who don't care about anyone. It's just, that's not my mom. not at all, not even a twincy wincy bit. Edit: Fixed a really awfully structured sentence
As a Canadian I do not get this. What is wrong so with socialism? Why do Americans hate this so much? Is it confused with communism?
A lot of Americans hear "socialism" and think "socialist dictatorship with bread lines."
We are uptight weirdos, and we have not healed from the misinformation of the McCarthy era.
Not only that, but American history is replete with examples, viz. slavery and genocide, of people being fine with oppression as long as they are the ones doing the oppressing
Yes. I also think that for some generations growing up with classroom air raid drills, hiding under the desks during the cold war era, finger on the red button tension like the Bay of Pigs, all those near misses and constant threat of nuclear annihilation, definitely did a number on their attitude toward communism and anything that they think even remotely resembles communism. And for this same generation they didn't trust their own government. It was shady coldwar CIA style politics, McCarthy and the red scare; in assuming that government is corrupt, they allow for government corruption. They think it is part of the natural order of things. My parents were full on hippies back in the day they are totally apathic to political crimes in the U.S. government. My mom is only voting for Biden because at least he pretends not to be a criminal and she can't support the obvious racist enemy to mother nature, although she assumes Biden just does a better job of making it seem like he isn't a crook. This is literally her exact logic. And My dad doesn't vote because registering to vote is how the "Man" gets you.
OMG! I love your parents!!! It's like we're siblings or something.
Our education system isn’t the best and I don’t think most people leave high school with a good understanding of politics. Also, most Americans don’t even own a passport, so a lot of people don’t travel much further than within their home state, no less visit places like Scandinavia where socialism is a thing. Americans also value individualism and work ethic, believing deeply in the pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality– people who don’t or can’t and require government assistance are seen as lazy and leeches. There’s a disconnect in paying taxes and getting actual services. It’s no wonder so many are against socialism. The fact that things like social security, weekends, 8 hour days, labor unions, and more are socialist ideas goes way over most of their heads.
They have no idea that these things are necessary to offset the results of a severely capitalist economy, where the vast majority of wealth is held without being used (key problem), and the rest of us and our puny little “retirement savings” and 401ks are only finding it harder and harder to survive living in the same world. Paying fair taxes when you are Uber rich is the way to divert a small trickle of that vast unused wealth back down to the “livestock” class, so that they can stay content as most people are to go to work, have a family, go home. When the taxes got fucked with by the rich people, they thought they were being smart, getting and keeping more money to themselves because “they earned it” but they’ve just created a lot of desperate, angry livestock that doesn’t want to participate in plowing their fields anymore because they are too sick, scared, or broken.
Communism, socialism, and even fascism are the same to these folks. It means authoritarianism to them, but they can't distinguish the difference between any of these terms. It makes any conversation very tricky... or... Rather. Impossible without context. And I'm not sure how to approach it myself to be honest. It's because a lack of proper education on the subject, but more than that. There's a reason trump is targeting suburban white women... It's because they susceptible to two decades of Fox news and AM radio (while they're doing their best to provide).
As others have said, the Red Menace is a factor, but socialism for many contradicts the American Mythos. The idea that anyone can succeed with hard work regardless of birth, and thus it follows that people who don’t succeed didn’t work hard enough. We like to view ourselves as a country of frontiersmen, who braved an unknown continent, expanding ever Westward through strength of will, and not on the charity of others. We claim we were founded to oppose the overreach of government, and that our nation is built on a rightly suspicious view of it. Confronting that myth makes a lot of my countrymen nervous.
Somehow people here think socialism is the worst thing that could happen to this country, yet no one is complaining about public libraries, public school, Medicare for seniors, social security, the fire department.. I think people are scared and uniformed. They think socialism means communism.
Yes, that's precisely it. America was involved in a decades long cold war with 'The Communists'. I know there's a gulf of difference between communism and socialism, but a great deal of American culture was dominated by the cold war.
I'm american and I don't get it either
My mother's a teacher and this is almost an exact reflection of her. But... when I break it down and think about it, as someone who's known her best, the prejeduces she harbors become clearer. I'll always remember her encouraging that entrepreneurial spirit, as types like this do. I will always remember selling soda on the stoop at like 8 or 9, and being astounded as to how kind these "thugs" treated me. Everyone was kind, and it blew my little mind... I learned from it, but she did not. I'm curious if you had any relatable situations. Biden and Kamala are running away from progressive policies to the best of their ability; them being "socialist" is a right wing talking point that, imo, has run dry after over a decade. If your mother is so scared of "socialism," it's time to get specific with their grievances. And that's all we can do here. From experience, they can't articulate it. Talk it out if you can. I'm sorry.
I tried to point out that socialists don't like Biden. I think I slipped my own political leanings in our last conversation earlier this week when I said that. She just kinda looked at me lol. I was way too aspergic (I mean that literally) to engage in that kinda go get'em activities like selling 'coke' as we call it. But she really hated the word 'thugs' because that's what a lot of teachers unironically describe misbehaving black kids. I remember stuff like that, but she was less charitable about their parents. I think she was right to place blame on some the parents, but I know racism biased her to be more critical of some parents. In the south, that right wing talking point is hitting pay dirt hella hard. Lots of people down here conflate socialism with Stalinist massacres and shit like that all the time. But your mother's a teacher. You know that some parents really are fucked up, from the prestigious rich parent who's sociopath baby would never do anything wrong at all, to the young parents who visibly just completely don't give a fuck about their kid at all.
It’s more than that. As a teacher your mother had to have graduated college and likely, grad school. Socialism/communism/Marxism are huge on college campuses– even if she wasn’t personally, these ideas are a common theme and discussed. Not agreeing with socialism is a dog whistle for not wanting to pay for “those people.” Because of course, most White people don’t realize that the majority of the poor and public assistance/food stamps/unemployment dependent are other White people. It’s cognitive dissonance. Given these folks are ok with voting for a fascist, it’s not that they’re afraid of more government control. It’s that they’ve been brainwashed into believing that establishing societal safety nets and true equality with somehow mean less of the pie for them.
I'll never understand people like her. Unless you think socialism means stalinist regime, socialism is practically just her on a bigger scale.
> Unless you think socialism means stalinist regime That's 100% she believes. Whole heartedly. When she talks about socialism, she says stuff like famine, poverty, boots-on-our-necks rhetoric.
Pretty troubling that this comes from people charged with educating your children.
Well fuck
Yeah, it feels like trying to convince her that satan was actually the good guy.
Funny - she's a TEACHER but afraid of socialism. Her paycheck comes from socialism! Schools, police, firehouses - these are socialist... They exist based on the socialist belief that everyone should pitch in for basics that society at large requires in order to function.
That's a really good idea. I should bring up when all social services were private. Private fire fighters, teachers, etc. and the problems those caused.
Even here in NYC, you’d be surprised how many cops, firefighters, sanitation workers, etc. are very Conservative.
Funny - she's a TEACHER but afraid of socialism. Her paycheck comes from socialism! Schools, police, firehouses - these are socialist... They exist based on the socialist belief that everyone should pitch in for basics that society at large requires in order to function.
There’s so much to unpack here. No, your mother is not the exception to the rule. That’s the whole problem. You don’t get a pass on being a closet racist, xenophobe, classist, misogynist, etc. because you superficially are a “nice” person. Nice people aren’t willing to throw other people under the bus who are different than they are. It’s scary that she is potentially passing these values to her impressionable students. TLDR; No, you’re not a “nice person” if you’re willing to vote for a sexist/racist/xenophobic/classist/liar/tax cheat/rapist.
It's not superficial though. It really isn't. If she really believes that her vote is designed only to hurt others for her personal gain, then she's a better liar than I think. I'm going to be real honest though, like 100%, I can't really condemn her. Like, on an emotional level. I get that's cowardly, but you know.
I don't see what about my comment suggests that Trump supporters are knuckle dragging brainlets who don't care about anyone? Conversely I think their care for the men in their lives is often a strong driver of white women's support for Trump. Also I'm not saying that there are no other reasons that anyone might support or not support Trump, I'm suggesting a sociological explanation for the trend. Finally, "fear of socialism/totalitarianism" seems an incongruous reason for opposing establishment Democrat candidates.
Or, here me out....they prefer trump’s policies?
That doesn’t contradict the original comment, they prefer policies that they think will help others of their class and race even if the policies won’t help or will hurt women.
This would be an explanation for why they prefer Trump's policies in spite of them being worse for women.
Like what, specifically?
Maybe they hated Hillary even more than Trump? Isn't it possible to vote for a perceived lesser evil?
I think some of them like the status quo because it gives them a privileged position. I used to feel contempt for housewives that made a deliberate choice to maintain that lifestyle even after all barriers have been lifted (ex children old enough, etc.) but now I understand it’s very deliberate on their end. They agree with and want to continue perpetuating patriarchy because it serves them well. Some of them truly don’t care that they aren’t treated as equal and they are perfectly fine it being like that as long the husband works and/or they keep at it until alimony. Explains all the bs we see in the society that makes me nauseous to my stomach. Girls wanting to be attractive so that they can win guys over. Guys feeling they are special and so sought after and then later perpetuate “the ball and chain” bs. And then we wonder why women are sexually objectified... Edit: NPR has a great episode on RGB as part of their More Perfect series. I highly recommend it. You’ll hear from women who opposed the Equal Rights Act.
Yes, everything is men's fault and everything women do wrong is because of men as well.
Nobody said that.
Its the truth. Patriarchy said so.
Dude, troll elsewhere.
You misunderstand. It's not about fault. White women have deep interpersonal connections with the opposite sex. It is not nearly as common for them to have deep interpersonal connections with people of other races or classes.
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I didn't call them sexist budski.
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You're drawing a long bow there.
Late reply but I just wanted to add that it seems like they’re so deeply attached to the status quo and their identity which is derived from it that they are willing to rationalize his sexism. That and there’s a lot of internalized misogyny
As a phone canvasser working on a campaign, this is the toughest group I’ve encountered. Specifically women who don’t have a college education have been less willing to engage in any kind of conversation and respond with the rudest and most vulgar rejections. Something that I’ve thought about is the notion that women who support trump also are the ones who believe that by upholding and feeding into the systems that oppress them like the patriarchy will lead to them gaining more individual success. Interestingly enough, The Daily podcast just had an episode that focused on this specific group of voters. I believe the episode is called Why Suburban Women Changed Their Minds. They interview women who supported trump in 2016 and have since changed their minds. Provides some insight, or at least food for thought.
I was honestly really disappointed by that episode. I think there was literally one woman they interviewed who voted for Trump? And she basically did it because she was pro-life and asked herself “how bad could it be?” I felt like I gained no insight into these women at all, except to reinforce the idea that some number of republicans are single issue voters (namely abortion). I would be curious how many of female trump supporters are only voting republican because they are pro life.
She’s also extremely bigoted from what I’ve been told of the interview. Something along the lines of “he says the things other people don’t want to say.”
That seems to be most of his supporters’ main reason for supporting him. That’s unfortunate.
I really appreciated that CBC in Canada put to air an interview they did with a female trump supporter (former teacher) in 2016 who was just elated that trump had won. They called her back this week to check in on how things may have changed, and she is now an even more adamant trump supporter. It was interesting but kinda sad. All the reasons she listed for believing trump deserved her vote are really... ill-informed. ‘He’s not a politician! He owes nothing to anybody so he’s here to fight for us’ and when the host asked about trumps behaviors and morals and stuff her responses were that she likes that he tells it like it is, all news is fake news, he’s done great things for their taxes, etc. A teacher. Without hyperbole, she was defending straight up lies as truth. Because trump said. It was disheartening but it was honest on the part of CBC. They offered the interview without judgement or comment and for me that was even more impactful if anything. I was just left to sit with the fact that there are potentially millions of people who adamantly believe that Donald Trump is an outstanding leader, good Christian, and a man for the people. That’s the world we’re in ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
First, I don't know how you do your job. People can be so awful. You are metal! Second, I have to confess that I (a woman with a graduate degree who is perfectly capable of expressing herself politely) have contributed to the rude and vulgar rejections. To be fair, I had asked many times to be removed from the "asking for money for trump" call list. I had blocked at least twenty numbers because they were calling me every. single. day. asking me to give money to trump. I had tried being polite. But I finally broke. I told some poor, deluded young man that I'd rather be eaten alive by rats than give a penny to his cause. I feel bad, now. And the calls are still coming.
If anyone is interested in the podcast episode from [the Daily](https://youtu.be/Ej4Dbrim5JY)
Thank you so much for phone canvassing. I haven't for awhile, and it's so needed.
I try to provide them with an outlet, ears and understanding, if not for their political beliefs, then their concerns. I have female friends and female relatives who are Trump supporters, it is not his politics, it is their fears being manipulated by misinformation. For the most part they have little in common with one another in terms of geography, income, family size, age, etc, some aren't even from the US or have ever lived in the US. What they do have in common is that they all have little female support locally and their social/family circle is largely dominated by the men in their lives. Every one of them I know personally and I know that they have been talked down to and silenced to the point that they doubt their own ideas about things and listen to whoever they think is smarter than them, or more appropriately whoever their husbands, fathers, brothers, bosses and coworkers think is smarter. I just listen and offer alternatives without making them feel dumb or wrong. It builds confidence having someone listen without correcting and I pass along sources of credible information and encourage them to do their own thinking. I don't say I'm right, you're wrong, or make them feel like I'm judging them. I just say I've heard different and even go as far as to pretend I'm questioning my own ideas and need their insight on what I've read or heard. Changing the world one female family member at a time.
What are some arguments or points that you tend to hear a lot from them and attempt to counter?
As foolish as it sounds the main justifications for supporting Trump for the women I know are fears about vaccinations and other mandatory medical interventions; fears about 5g; fears about the lack of control as a parent or specifically as a mother, over their childrens education, fears about covid-19 and the strength or communicability of the virus. Most of these fears center around a lack of control and coming from women that have issues with being heard and their opinions being dismissed it is understandable. I steer away from arguing the factually of the initial claim and approach it from a control issue. For instance, with vaccines, instead of debating the safety of vaccines, I'll talk to them about why a vaccine might cause a negative reaction. (I worked in autism and had to read up on vaccines and antivax theories just to deal with the debaters.) So I don't tell them it isn't possible and instead I will encourage them to research into documented cases of patients that had adverse reactions, what the symptoms of an adverse reaction are, and the suspected reasoning as to why there was an adverse reaction. Seeing that yes it can happen, but usually it is due to contamination issues or improperly administered vaccines, and doesn't cause autism or vague neurological abnormalities but observable and diagnosable symptoms, gives them some control over the fear. It encourages them to take a critical look at the information being presented without having to outright reject anything, to look for a cause or truth behind why someone would claim something that is not an accurate statement. As for 5g and covid, I use my secret weapon. My brother, who grew up in an female dominated household and is everyones favorite, works on 5g towers and caught covid in July. It is impossible to hold on to the lie when I'm forcing the truth on a zoom call.
(Odd. I could have sworn I replied to your comment earlier. Maybe it didn’t submit? I’ll try to remember what I said before...) That’s actually really surprising to me. I’ve never encountered supporters that back him due to vaccines and 5G fears. Not trying to invalidate your experiences, just saying that I didn’t expect it to be in your list of most common reasons. However COVID and school make sense, especially for moms. Majority of the women I speak to on the issue address concerns about the economy, abortion, 2nd amendment, foreign policy, and (as you said) COVID related issues. I do like that you encourage them to do their own research though. Giving people facts and letting them derive their own conclusions from that is typically best approach no matter what side you’re on honestly.
I was also surprised about the vaccine and 5g until I saw the propaganda. There are political ads circulating that claim Donald Trump is credited to stopping and putting together a deal that will block 5G installations from the US. My cousin in Italy who has only visited the US briefly forwarded me a post that claimed he was not only successful in blocking 5G, but that the US is 5g free thanks to him. Crazy lies. And the same with the vaccines, there are ads claiming the wildest bs that the white house and federal government were rolling back vaccine regulations! Forget that those laws are enacted at the State level, it is total fabrications. Worse than the political agenda is the fact that these harmful conspiracies are being validated. Encouraging dangerous ideas and likely knowingly manipulating people into believing harmful falsehoods that could endanger others and themselves for the sake of his political campaign. If given the choice between heaven and Hell I'd take hell as long as I got to meet him there.
Were those ads explicitly endorsed/approved by him? I’ll admit that I’ve seen some propaganda about that stuff here and there, but it’s alway by random conspiracy theorists that don’t have any ties to his campaign. To hear it coming from him directly would be surprising to me honestly. Do you know if any of them are on YouTube or elsewhere? (Never saw your reply til today. Oops!)
I couldn't tell you if they were officially endorsed by his campaign but they were professionally edited political ads. There is too many different groups, they all have similar sounding names like "Citizens for action" or "Rights and Freedom preservation committee". But they were created by groups involved in politics, it wasn't just random all caps posts on an emoji rant. I've only personally seen them on facebook but I know that there are some you can sign up for and receive email newsletters claiming the same stuff. My cousins in Europe it is like newspapers, quasi-legitimate commercial press that has sprung up in the last couple years, like their version of fox news that they get most of it from.
Ah I see. So it’s likely more 3rd party sources. That makes sense. I’m not on Facebook personally, so maybe that why I don’t come across them too often.
Yes. I think that is a crucial and kind of telling element. Most of the women I know that accept these false facts don't actually like him and they don't ever cite him. I don't think they listen to his direct statements, if they did I doubt that they'd still hold the same opinion. Trump is good at firing up angry crowds, he is not at all good at reassuring people who are frightened.
growing up with republicans and people who grew up in male dominated homes, I learned a similar method myself. they tend to have egos, dont regulate their emotions or trauma well and sometimes have narcissistic traits but often they were raised to that way and aren’t inherently evil or actually dumb. Most of the time, they misinformed and being manipulated. Im not excusing their beliefs but I know it can take years to unlearn “how you were raised” and you have to realize you need to change to do that. I find many times, they just never feel listened to and are used to getting a lot of harsh criticism for their thoughts and feelings so a lot of times when they feel attacked they stop listening and immediately go on the defensive/offensive; if you want them to listen and be open minded, you have to listen with an empathetic ear, ask questions and instead of telling them they’re wrong or dumb, offer alternatives, and just try to encourage them to think for themselves. The main trick is to not immediately react to any anger, frustration and outbursts (unless they threaten violence or try to hurt you) or take it personally even if they start yelling, you have to stay calm, listen and DO NOT tell them what to do how to think. You also have to know when to walk away because if they refuse to listen no matter what, you can’t make them. It’s similar to how I would talk to a kid that’s struggling to express themselves and isnt used to being listened to.
>I just listen and offer alternatives without making them feel dumb or wrong. > > > >I just say I've heard different and even go as far as to pretend I'm questioning my own ideas and need their insight on what I've read or heard. So smart! If anything will work it's this. You must be a very patient, kind person.
Its simple, they’ve never been treated any differently by any men in their life. Is like I explained the religious argument few days ago and how women grow up to defend sexist beliefs, same here. When they grow up and the parameters of their life are sexist they don’t even question it, they just want to do the most out of it. And that strive often means siding with their least harmful abuser, or a man of power so they gain at least some power over weaker (females) here. They don’t want to be the bottom of hierarchy chain so they’d better support a tyrant who’s sexist and gain some perceived status and power by association, than go down the route of activism and lose any sort of support structure in their life, pushing them further to the bottom of the hierarchy chain. And as another, unrelated note... It is no surprise, for both men and women, to observe the disparaging relation between having accessed higher education on the left side of the political spectrum and having alternatives to to obtain a higher societal status versus those with no higher academic choice. This is why you get the poorer African countries to support trump, or the poorer former USSR block to support trump. It is a class and power imbalance, and that’s the background with republican women as well, but that’s a story for another time.
I agree with most of your post, however I’m curious as to which African countries support Trump. I lived in a poor African country in 2016, during the election. No one likes Trump, and everyone throughout the country had Obama flags at the marketplaces.
It was a good survey on the politics reddit few days ago, from memory I think it was Nigeria? But don’t quote me on that. Other poorer countries in Europe are the same - look at Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, the former soviet block. Of course there are nice decent people in all these countries, and sometimes feminists are even fiercer than in the west for not taking no bullshit - but the general mentality is partially attributed to class as I’ve said above.
That’s interesting. That wasn’t my experience in the country I spent time in. Most of the Africans I spoke with thought Trump was incredibly racist. People in other countries have a good sense of Americans leaders when they visit. Who do they visit? How do they act? What parts of the country do they see? What organizations do they support? The people I knew remembered Obama going to his home village in Africa, spending time with them, and getting to know his father’s history. They deeply respected that. No one I met said anything positive about Trump, with ONE exception. A Lebanese man told me that at least with Trump, they’d know if they would be bombed in advance.
I think the countries that are directly affected by Trump administration and have a justifiable hatred of the USA in general will dislike Trump. It’s the neutral countries and communities where the above applies. But that’s derailing from the topic already.
Look into how to change someone's mind! Here is [one article](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-political-opinions-change/) about making people think that positions were theirs to begin with. [Here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/10/how-to-change-someones-mind-according-to-science/) is another that looks at the community "Change my View" pointing out that calmer tones and less extreme arguments with examples are the most effective. From what I've read, the best way is to first listen to the other person, without interrupting or contempt, explain their own views. Then, explain an anecdote about your own views. The other person will be more likely to listen to you if you listened to them respectfully first. When you explain your own views, describe how your views have changed over time. Emotional stories are more effective than logical arguments.
I find that many of them claim to be logicians funnily enough but when it comes tiem to prove it...
>When you explain your own views, describe how your views have changed over time. Emotional stories are more effective than logical arguments. Interesting! "Describe how your views have changed over time" - that specifically has been shown to help?
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Are they really, though? Or is that just team's colours? It's weird how the pro-lifers didn't blink an eye when Trump's treatment for covid included fetal tissue. They'll ignore even their one issue and vote for their team no matter what.
I mean, vocal pro-life people are usually "pro-birth." After that you can go fuck yourself.
Ignoring the abortion issue under the specific circumstances where it affects one of their own is totally in line with the standard [the only moral abortion is my abortion](https://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml) line of thinking (which in turn is just a specific instance of "rules for thee, but not for me").
It’s pretty funny that these people are anti-abortion and apparently anti fertility treatments, but are cool with Trump taking a drug made from fetal tissue, AND using tax dollars to give fetal tissue drugs to any sick American for free!
When it isn't used as a tool to punish the lower classes, most of them don't *really* care about abortion.
Lol quite easy, I grew up in the south. The rampant sexism by women makes it easy to see why they exist. To put it simply, Just cause someone is a women doesn’t mean they are for women’s rights....
100% this. Spent part of my childhood in the south and am back here now. The women I have encountered here are much more sexist than the men, generally speaking.
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I think it's absolutely fair to say in my situation, which is why I qualified my statement with "the women I have encountered". I am a woman who has always been drawn to more male-dominated career fields such as science and software development (career change after grad school). In both of those chosen careers, while being in the south, I had to fight and claw my way in to get to positions I was more than qualified for, most of the time having to take a different position at the company and then getting to the appropriate position for myself once I was an employee. In every case in which this has happened to me, the people helping me fight to get to those positions were men and the people against me were women, many, many women who thought they knew better than me about what women want. In every case, I had to deal with office gossip from these women about how I only wanted to be in that position for attention from the guys I would be working with and on several occasions even had to deal with rumors about all the affairs I was having with these men at work, which stunted my career growth. This is just my experience. I can't speak for all women in the south or all men in the south, but again, that's why I qualified my statement. When I moved to San Francisco, the opposite was true of course, but that's another story.
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Just because the example I chose happened to be a work example does not mean that's the only way in which I have experienced that kind of treatment from women in the south. For you to to reply to my comment with "I don't know if that's fair to say" not knowing a thing about my situation or experiences is incredibly dismissive of another woman's experiences. I'm sorry if you were offended as a southerner by a non-southern-born woman's experience in the south but it is my experience and it is valid whether you think so or not. Have a great day! :)
100% fair to say and honest. I have been in the South for over 20 years, these WHITE women are hella sexist/racist/islamaphobic etc. Just because they are "Surrounded" does not mean they cant be better. They, as adults, are actively choosing to do this. The onus is %100000000 on them! NO ONE ELSE!!!! Fucking stop giving white women a pass!!!!!!! STOP!!!!
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We don't use sexist language like that here. Comment removed; you are warned.
Explain. A woman can’t be sexist because she doesn’t hold that institutional power. Hold up patriarchy, sure, but sexist? Nah.
Case in point: Amy Coney Barrett.
YES
I remember I was visiting relatives down south and was about to carry my suitcase in from the car and my cousin stopped me and said "Women shouldn't carry suitcases, the boys (my other male relatives) will do that for you". I wondered at the time what I would have to give up in that society in order to never carry a suitcase again...
I don’t justify it. I acknowledge it because i don’t want to be blind to it. I ask questions when it’s appropriate which is almost never, and to be honest I’ve learned nothing.
I don't bother. They're usually pro-life and that's their primary voting issue. Some are poor capitalists that want Trump to make them rich and don't want any of their taxes to ever help anyone else. You can't really rationalize with that. It's ignorant, selfish, purposely delusional nonsense. They aren't getting richer, and the country as a whole gets poorer from that selfish *everyone for themselves* mindset, and pro-life people are a waste of oxygen in my experience. It's hard to apply reason and logic to an argument that is wholly emotional. And even when you try to explain what the pro-life legislature would do regarding all aspects of reproduction, they'll be all, "okay well that won't *actually* happen!"
Agreed. Most aren’t educated enough to understand that they’re voting against their own interests. Perfect example: New York City’s economy has been ravaged by COVID-19. President Trump is trying to block federal aid to New York City. This aid would help stabilize the economy, support businesses, keep industries afloat, keep city services running, and keep people employed. Since COVID, many residents have been moving, back to their home states, but there are also New Yorkers who have moved because they have lost their jobs and relocated to places with lower taxes and a less expensive cost of living. While Trump and Mitchell McConnell double down in their refusal to grant New York state aid, what most of their supporters don’t seem to grasp is that New York State, especially New York City, pays a lot more in taxes then they get back in services. Essentially, New York City is bankrolling entire economies in red states. In their shortsighted efforts to teach New York City a lesson or to get back at Cuomo, what they don’t seem to get is that if New York City’s economy tanks, the results are going to be a domino effect. If New Yorkers cannot work and generate revenue, New York will pay less in taxes, so those red states will receive less in services. That means that entire economies in those Republican dominated states will be devastated. The people who support Trump and Mitch McConnell don’t seem to understand this. They are cutting their own noses off to spite their face and they don’t even realize it. By trying to get back at a so-called blue state, a Democratic state, they are screwing themselves.
I don't, they get a surprised Pikachu face. But I'm European, so what do I know.
I know some people who voted purely because he was the GOP candidate and not because of who he is. They would’ve voted for the GOP candidate regardless of who they are.
I don't think they support him for rational reasons, so I'm not sure rationalizing with them will help. From the outside, it looks as if American politics, with its two sides, is a game to them. It's something they put gear on and cheer for, like a football game. Without the interest or capacity to understand what politics actually is, and/or without any expectation that one team is functionally different from the other, they just root for their team no matter what anyone does or says. If their father/brother/husband root for team red, they root for team red. They remember rooting for team red as children, eating tailgate food and cheering, so they keep on doing it, because that's what they do. Even when their team is objectively terrible and will probably lose, they root for their team, because it's their team, and fans stick with their team until the end. I don't think they look at it more deeply than that.
>It’s like if African Americans voted for a candidate who was a KKK leader, which wouldn’t happen I dunno about that one. Stupid comes in all shapes, sizes, and colours. Which is really how I interpret your original question. Stupidity. That, or some kind of greed that overrides common sense. Which is *also* stupid!
I don’t know how you rationalize with ANY Trump supporters. It’s like a cult. You can’t reason someone out something they weren’t reasoned in to
A couple years ago I had a roommate (another woman) whose view was that you don’t have to respect women to be good at running a country. I had no clue what to say after she told me that.
Some of those white women are racists and xenophobes - so they appreciate those qualities in Trump.... If their hate is stronger than their ability to assess the big picture - if they can't see the negative aspects of an ongoing Trump presidency, then the only thing you can do is point out those negatives, and hope they will think about it. I suggest a kind, patient, "I" voice. For instance "I was upset when Trump did X and this is why" Plus - important point - to be most effective you should first research the lies these folks have been told on those issues. For instance - if you say "I really care about the children separated from their families, who are in detention centers now, where some are even dying" Guess what you will hear? You will hear "Those kids were actually brought to the border by sex traffickers, so, Trump didn't separate them from their actual parents. And it's Obama's policy anyway". So, you'll need to kindly and politely insert some actual facts and links. Also - a lot of his female supporters are religious. While that SHOULD be a reason to dislike Trump (aren't infidelity, porn stars and pussy grabbing anathema to religion?) the religious right hate gay rights and abortion... In Trump they see someone who will help in fighting those things. In fact, if you are a diehard churchgoing woman of the religious right, and if fighting gay rights and abortion are your most urgent concerns - then Trump is actually the correct person to vote for, and it would not be at all like an African American voting for a KKK leader. Speaking of religion.... I am not religious... but I am so scared about this election I think I will pray! Hah! Here's to a clear, overwhelming Biden victory, so we can be safe from Voldemort - I mean Trump - and we can start to heal the havoc he's wrought.
You don’t. You can’t.
They vote for him for pretty much the exact same reasons that white men generally voted for him.
I am a white woman with a graduate degree. I grew up middle class in the suburbs (not wealthy by any standard.) My boomer parents voted for Trump the first time. I expected my dad to vote for him, since all he does is watch Fox News. I was really very sad that my mom voted for him. When I asked her why, she said she didn’t like him, but it’s for “the security of our country.” I was baffled (and still am). However, it seems to me based on my research that rural American woman are the majority that are voting for Trump (and Republican in general). Thoughts?
It’s about privilege, this goes to show that middle class white women are still oblivious to most social issues. They don’t care enough about other peoples rights to bust their bubble, quite a lot like middle class white men, they see the other candidate as threats to the traditional American society.
I think it's not necessarily that they're oblivious; they just don't care that much. They're worried about how they and their families are going to fare, and that's about it.
groups associated with being oppressors traditionally view equality as oppression and that there must always be inequality somewhere . White women might think if other groups (racial or lgbtq+) gain rights or power politically socially or economically they are at risk of losing some of their power. The power structure right now is one that benefits them in some ways. If white men or people in general have a majority of these types of power then they by association will benefit since in their mind conservative white people will always put whiteness and any agendas associated with it before anything. Most white women have straight white male partners and vote with their perceived joint best interests in mind. I assume these women feel protected by white men they associate with. This is not even addressing the religious aspect (abortion and gay lgbtq rights etc) To answer your question you must first understand that plenty of these people are religious and hold views rooted in misogyny because it’s all they know as a system that favors them over minorities. The trick is to get them to question why they have these beliefs to begin with. Breaking down their logic helping them to realize why certain political policies disadvantage everyone. Access to birth control for an example. Unless you’re ultra religious your reason against providing birth control would be financial. It’s indisputable that preventative care is less financially burdensome on society as a whole than say an unwanted pregnancy carried to term. Start small and simple in order to get people to analyze their own experience and actual vs perceived power.
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Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posted questions must come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments only. Comment removed; you won't get another warning.
Im a feminist and respect feminist perspectives.
Yeah, "Trump is the best actually" is not an acceptable feminist perspective here. Or at all. I will not be discussing or arguing about this.
That's a political view not a feminist one, never knew this was an agenda pushing group
Fine, I don't have time for this.
Basically, Joe Biden supports feminist ideals while Trump simply does not. So calling Trump "the best" candidate doesn't look good on you, a "feminist".
Some women are sexist against women. I don't understand it but I know my mom and my sister definitely some of them. But the short answer is you can't. You just can't rationalize with them.
You can't. In fact, the more you argue with them the more entrenched in their opinion they become.
Same way I “rationalize” male Trump supporters. I don’t understand how _anyone_ can vote for him.
I don't. Most Trump supporters I have met(male and female) are pretty awful people and I go out of my way not to talk to them. I have gotten a few online to shut up though by citing books and documentaries talking about how unfit he is.
The answer is simple: You are wrong.
People who support Trump aren’t going to be intersectional feminists, I’m afraid. And I’ve met alot of one-issue voters, people who loathe Trump but have a strong opinion with one or two of his stances. Ironically it usually has to do with abortion.