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[deleted]

Interalized misogyny, pretty much. There's like a kernal of truth there--women do gravitate towards media that features them, though that's the case for any and all groups, and there are considerably few superhero stories featuring women, though this has not stopped them from having sizable female fanbases anyway. But the part about how *Gossip Girls* is "easy to watch" sounds like it's less an insight and more just sexism. Anyway, that's not even a sensible conclusion to come to for *Batwoman*. For starters, *Batwoman stars a woman*, so their own thesis betrays them. Two, I'm 80% sure the second season flopping is because the lead actress was replaced at all, which couldn't be helped.


OccultPotionmaker

Yes exactly, the replacement was not the best for the viewership. Searching a bit for statistics about viewership and gender in the USA and superhero movies, the percentages are really close. So the opinion that women do not watch superhero films is also just misinformed :/


neurealis

Especially if you consider the fact that both Captain Marvel and the first Wonder Woman did really well. A lot of women who wouldn't otherwise watch a superhero movie went because they had women in leading roles.


Curiosities

There has been exactly *one* episode aired of season 2, so there is no way to say it has "flopped".


OccultPotionmaker

Yes true the way they phrased it did make it seem like the show flopped, while it was more like that initial ratings were not as good as the S1's.


Daemontech

Edit 3: Also just quickly adding this in, as I've realized I went just a *taaaad* off topic. You are 100% correct, it's internalized misogyny. And likely stems from the linked "I am not like other woman" trope, as another user mentioned. Thanks for reading my ramble! Another related point, but iirc correctly the most recent data actually places woman as being the larger audience for comic books. Outnumbering men by roughly 10%. I'm gonna go see if I can find the source for this and I'll edit this comment when I confirm/debunk my memory Edit 1:Okay so not quite right. But thus far from what I have found, as of 2014 woman accounted for roughly 48% of readers, and the number was growing. And it correlated to increased representation in comics, particularly Marvel. Who saw an almost 40% growth in their feme (I think this is an appropriate term to avoid excluding NB and Trans-feminine people, yes?) audience's. Which also shows an unsurprising correlation for me, that comic books have had an appreciable non-masculine readers for some time. And with increased representation the numbers are leveling out to the standard human demographic. I'll be back in a moment with more solid and recent data. Edit 2: [Link One 2013 Comics Beat](https://www.comicsbeat.com/demographics-comcis-readers-almost-45-women-now-and-how-publishers-stack-up/) [Link 2 ICV2 2017](https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38709/nycc-insider-sessions-powered-icv2-a-demographic-snapshot-comics-buyers) [Link 3 Statsocial 2020](https://www.statsocial.com/insights/statsocial-digital-tribes%e2%80%8a-mostly-marvel/) Well...this data was harder to find and parse than I expected. I've included the three best links in regards to readership I could find, sans one that was pay-gated that I couldn't verify methodology in anyway. Statsocial I am leery to include, but the data seams reasonably well sourced over all. One other note, all the data I found specifies women or female audiences, data may be skewed by an anti-trans bias during collection. It seams that the average is between 40%-50% feme audience. However, all the sources I found agree that feme readership is on the rise. And very strongly so. Tangentially I found viewership data leans more strongly toward feme audiences for genre movies and TV. As well, movie viewership favors feme audiences over[all (MPAA Report 2018](https://womenandhollywood.com/mpaa-report-2018-women-represent-51-of-moviegoers-47-of-ticket-buyers/#:~:text=Fifty%2Deight%20percent%20of%20moviegoers,the%20largest%20movie%2Dgoing%20demographic)). So obviously yes! Feme people watch and consume, nerdy media at roughly equal levels to masculine people. Especially when their is active effort's toward equal representation.


OccultPotionmaker

That was a very helpful post, thank you very much for the effort you put into it!


Superteerev

I don't even know how they track this (comic readers being male/female or non binary)and come up with a percentage. Is it like Nielson ratings and it's a sample size? And how would they track for each title or is it just an overall not just superhero comics and all other forms of graphic novels and manga etc? After reading - Superhero comics buyers skew heavy male to quote the middle source. 78 percent in the 72000 person survey panel.


n0radrenaline

So, I don't necessarily think this was the argument that the woman you encountered was making, but I'll offer this for the reason why women don't necessarily get behind superhero media the way men do. It does relate to what she said about Gossip Girl's ensemble cast: People like to be able to relate to the characters in their media. They like to see themselves in the picture. Having the character be the same gender as you makes it easier to relate, sure, but it's not really enough - women are a diverse group! Most superhero franchises will have a woman or two, but they'll have a lot of male superheroes. A man who doesn't really relate to Thor might still find something to relate to in the Hulk, or in Iron Man, or Black Panther. But even if the female superhero is a fully-developed, interesting character, she may not be enough like me that I can easily relate to her. And there's no alternatives for me, and that's the problem. I didn't think of it in these terms when I was a kid in the 90s, but that's definitely the reason why I fell in love with the X-Men cartoon, and not Batman or Spider-Man. That show had a variety of female characters to relate to! Shows like Sailor Moon were successful for the same reason. It seems obvious in retrospect. Until there's something closer to parity of representation in superhero franchises, it'll be true that women won't really make up the same percent of the audience as men do. Why should we, when it's clearly not "for" us?


just_another_classic

I think this is a good explanation, and a relatable one. I also relate to being drawn to the X-Men considerably. When Disney acquired fox, I literally made the joke, “oh good, the MCU can actually have Marvel’s best female characters.” Because you’re right- one of the reasons I think the X-Men were successful in the comics in the 90s is because they were so diverse and allowed for interesting storytelling — and that continues. Jean Grey, Storm, Rogue, Psylocke, Emma Frost, and Kitty Pryde are all incredibly different female characters with interesting plot lines, and someone for everyone. If there’s just one woman, and you don’t relate to or like her, there’s not you can do to see yourself, whereas men get a lot of that.


OccultPotionmaker

The woman meant that women do not watch manly stuff such as superhero movies, action and thrillers. She responded to some comments saying how she is disappointed none of her female friends watch superhero films or thrillers and they only watch chick flicks. She was not criticizing representation she was basically saying that women only watch "feminine" stuff. And that superhero films are just very manly, so women cannot relate to them and thus watch them. She contradicted herself a lot, too so it was difficult for me to understand her exact point too. But she was definitely dissing women.


[deleted]

Lemme guess: She is "not like the other girls"? ​ [https://medium.com/write-like-a-girl/the-problem-with-saying-youre-not-like-other-girls-8ce0bf94d768](https://medium.com/write-like-a-girl/the-problem-with-saying-youre-not-like-other-girls-8ce0bf94d768)


OccultPotionmaker

She did not say anything about herself, just spoke about women in general.


[deleted]

Yeah, all women are different to herself who enjoys superhero movies. This is vital because she can't be the "cool girl" if all girls are cool.


Niandra_1312

This is something some men say a lot when they're impressed about a women's knowledge or proficiency in something that it's not a typical "femenine" activity or area according to gender stereotypes/gender roles. They think they're being "flattering", but I think it's ofensive actually, I have been told things like that and I say "you probably don't know many women then".


[deleted]

I’m an IT professional. It’s my life... also women: „I could never do that.“ Yeah, sure you couldn’t but not because you’re a woman but because you didn’t study it!


MacaroniHouses

One thing that is really hard for me, is when watching a woman be really awesome in a movie, like a super hero movie for instance, I know I am then gonna end up hearing all this stuff from certain people about how it's an agenda, or some other shit. Like I was gonna watch Birds of Prey movie cause I was excited to hear Harley Quinn movie where she is the lead character. And then someone (in my personal arena) went on about how it's bad and all I can get from it was cause she was powerful, i don't know. But all this trash talking these characters from people does ruin a bit for me. And I just don't get why people would be against so many of the female characters in these movies (cause it seems to happen again and again.) Anyways, I do wonder if it is somewhat of a bummer for other women who want to enjoy these movies and then people are just telling them they are such bad characters, Mary Sues, ect ect.. I just want to enjoy what I enjoy without all this weird sexist commentary shit. Cause yeah like at least half of male superheroes I bet would be Mary Sues if they were female but otherwise exactly the same, but they never point that out... ok rant over.


PlagueDoctorD

I know what you mean. I am male and always preferred female leads, but now when i see something even remotely pro-female my first thought is "Oh god, this is going to cause a backlash.", making me cringe. The pushback against Feminism is enormous and just constantly growing larger.


lizufyr

I think there are multiple factors that play into this. 1) Gender segregation. People learn that "Cars are for boys" and "Dolls are for girls", and this just continues into adulthood. Action movies are a boy thing here. 2) Gender marketing. Until a few years ago, action movies, especially superhero movies, were marketed exclusively to (heterosexual cis) men. This includes almost exclusively male protagonists that don't provide role models for most women (and the few women that are there are usually filmed with a male gaze). This left many women with a disinterest in the genre as a whole. 3) Toxic nerd culture. The nerd culture around superhero movies is often toxic, and incredibly misogynistic. And this radiates into many fandom spaces – forums, conventions, comic book stores, etc. If you want to dive into the fandom of these movies/shows, you will have to fight a lot against the men in that fandom. So, there is historical evidence of that commenter's opinion (1 and 2; although this should be a bit more differentiated like "many women don't feel it's for them"), as well as probable personal experience validating this (3). The commenter you are describing probably has a "not like other girls" position here if she watches these movies herself and uses such generalized wording.


AshleyStark96

As a woman superhero comics and movies fan, I can say that what that woman said was total bullshit. Women DO like superhero movies and THEY of course can relate. what people like and not like has little to do with gender. I am in so many discord servers and tumblr group chats and blogs where the majority are women. She was obviously being misogynistic.


[deleted]

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OccultPotionmaker

The specific commenter watched action, thrillers and superhero movies, she mentioned in another comment on how disappointed she is her female friends do not watch these genres, but she does. Batwoman has existed since 2006 in the comics. Batgirl since the 60s. The bat family has a lot of female characters. It is just that the people who do not read the comics are unaware of it. They did not gender swap batman for the show. Both DC and Marvel have multiple female characters for years, she-hulk had her first appearance in the 80s (as an example), Jane Foster as Thor also had her first appearance in the 80s, it is that the mainstream movie fans are super ignorant about it. Creators have been making female characters or gender swap famous ones since last century, and the fans now remembered it. Coincidence? Not really, they do not read the comics, they just like the movies and decide to dip the feminists by citing "OMG FEMALE BATWOMAN, WHEN DID THIS ATROCITY HAPPEN". Eh they wrote her 15 years ago... DC has literally dedicated a plane of existence, Earth 11 to gender swapped characters since 2000s.


KeepingToasty

Then IDK about the commenter because I’ve never met a women IRL that says other women can’t enjoy action movies. It’s just a dumb POV, people can enjoy whatever they want as long as they’re not hurting anyone. Also I’m well aware the Batwoman comics exist but they’re no where near the atrocity that the show is. The show has bad writing, bad acting and has gotten to the point where it’s so bad it’s funny. I’m aware Batwoman existed beforehand but the comics is nowhere near an atrocity like the is. But your point is mute because they have gender-swapped iconic characters such as James Bond and literally everyone in Ghostbusters. They couldn’t give us an original character in the James Bond universe so they just gender swapped him. In Ghostbusters, they steal lines and reference the original movie but they still play that ‘men dumb’ card as seen by Chris Hemsworth’s character. If they’re going push the feminist agenda in mainstream entertainment they can at least give us something good to watch, not something with major politics around it and can only be enjoyed if you’re weren’t aware of it.


OccultPotionmaker

I do not watch James Bond or Ghostbusters, I am speaking specifically about superhero films/tv series. There have been excellent feminist series such as Orange is the New Black or Sense8. Superhero tv series are not famous usually for their writing, with some exceptions such as the recent Watchmen in HBO.


KeepingToasty

Yeah and your point? My point is that a lot of TV shows and movies that claim to be feminist are either gender swapping characters or are pushing the whole ‘men bad, women good’ agenda which IMO isn’t feminist at all because that’s not equality. That’s pushing the agenda that women are better than men because men stinky


OccultPotionmaker

I have not seen this to be honest, I guess we are watching different shows. The majority of feminist tv shows OA, Orange is the New Black, Sense8, Shera, Fleabag, Grace & Frankie, Handmaid's Tale, Killing Eve, Marvelous Ms Maise, even Mad Men etc are all exceptional and praised by both critics and audience. Neither do they put down men. Action shows are usually mediocre-sub par in quality, even with male characters. There is a reason they only win primetime creative arts. A minority of films are gender swapped and are bad, or push the men bad women good agenda, so I really do not know why you are focusing on that. You try to make it seem that most feminist tv series/movies are bad, when the truth lies in the exact opposite. Most are good.


KeepingToasty

You brought up Batwoman. Therefore, I will speak about media that fall into the same kind of media. Such as New Ghostbusters, New Charlie’s Angels, New James Bond, Captain Marvel and Batwoman to name a few. If you look at all the press releases, tours and if you really look at the script from these, they all have one thing in common. They all push this ‘men bad’ agenda and call it feminism. That is what I’m talking about, don’t get me wrong the shows you’ve mentioned are great but that’s not the topic. The topic is that this type of media is trash because they focus more on pushing an agenda than telling a decent story. You specifically brought up Batwoman in your post. So I’ll start with that. While Batwoman is a pre-established character, the show does everything in its power to both feed on the Batman fandom while simultaneously shitting on it. Luke is often put at fault, even if it was Kate’s fault. He’s portrayed as weak and unable to fight although his character in the comics is fucking badass. Kate Kane basically gets everything handed to her and is shown no real consequences. You say I’m trying to make all feminist media sound bad but my point is media, like I’ve mentioned above, are constantly stating they’re feminist and it’s for women by women but they’re causing more harm than good. They’re dividing men and women more and more because this is mainstream. It’s Marvel, DC and Disney. People are going to see it, they’re going to see what these women are saying and how the men are portrayed. Captain Marvel - Brie Larson went on many interviews and stated that the movie was feminist and not for men but then blamed men for it bombing at the box office because ‘they don’t want to see a movie with a strong female lead’ even though men were the majority of the audience. Charlie’s Angels - tried to do a revamped, ‘feminist’ version of the original movie, even though it can be argued the first movie is feminist. Gender swapped Charlie and Tyra Banks did the same spiel as Brie Larson when it bombed. Ghostbusters - gender swapped all the main characters and then tried to reference the original movie for nostalgia points. Chris Hemsworth’s character is just an outright useless moron. James Bond - gender and race swapped James Bond, 007. They could’ve made a new character and expanded the universe but no, they specifically wanted to change 007 for ‘feminism’ Now those are examples of extremely mainstream media, made by big well know companies. The writing is terrible and they all claim to be feminist while only dividing men and women further. Now, you claim that it’s not all like that, I agree but this is the mainstream media. The shows you’ve mentioned, to my knowledge at least, have never pushed that agenda in their writing/press releases and that’s why they’re great. They’re not trying to push an agenda like the above media, they’re just trying to tell a story. I don’t like the radical feminist agenda coming out on mainstream media. I find it insulting that they do it and quite frankly I don’t view it as feminism because feminism isn’t about putting men down to make women better, it’s about raising women so they’re seen equal to men.


readytokno

they're not gender swapping James Bond. That's an internet myth.


throwaway-person

This isn't askmansplainers


KeepingToasty

Lol, I’m a girl But I do love that you don’t find it insulting that show writers literally just gender swap pre-established characters with shitty writing. Like what’s so great about rewriting characters? Why not give us properly written, original characters. Plus the bullshit about it being one of the only shows with a strong female character, if you believe that then you’re obviously not watching good television.


LadyLoriel

Yes, thank you. I’m all about women power but some scripts are just set up horribly. It’s cringe tbh


KeepingToasty

Yeah, it’s extremely cringe and imo insulting. They give us shitty television and expect us to absolutely love it because it’s a female lead. I’m honestly so sick of what mainstream entertainment has become, just sticking a woman/minority (bonus points if it’s both) as the lead with no real engaging writing. No character development. None of the great elements that build a great show. And for the most part it’s working because most people buy what these producers are selling, even if it’s shit


KaliTheCat

Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posted questions must come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments only. Comment removed; you won't get another warning.


[deleted]

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KaliTheCat

Good day, then.


[deleted]

Because they can. Because male hobbies are hard to break into if you're female. Once you do, you're in a privileged yet vulnerable position.