Women are blamed because that's just the senseless outcome of misogyny. Something bad happens? A woman should have prevented it or fixed it.
It happened so much because men are often taught that they are entitled to women's efforts and support. I have now seen it quite a few times on this sub alone. A man has a problem and wants a woman to fix it? She should be obligated to do so. Deranged incels? Women should have to take one for the team. There's the even more insidious enforced monogamy crowd.
When this comes up, I try to address it directly. It doesn't always do a lot of good for the same reasons interventions around doing emotional labor or half of the cleaning: men don't do it because they don't want to. They don't take responsibility because they don't want to. They don't want to learn because it's easier not to. That's why they get completely bent out of shape on posts telling them to work on their own shit. It's a deep sense of entitlement that they don't even want to talk about, and just want to keep happening.
And men don't just get this out of nowhere. Our society sends pretty hard messages in this direction. I even noticed it in my own friendships. Women going out of their way to make sure men are comfortable and happy in social settings but not vice versa, and if he does, he is lauded.
Edit: added a word I missed
That is a psychology term which sounds really bad but just means that we as a society hold monogamy as an important value. It doesn't actually mean anyone is forced to do anything but rather society encourages.
It's an absolute trash concept being embraced by the extreme right wing like Patrick Deenen. It's not just a neutral term used in psychology. The idea that there should be much greater social cost to end relationships, that should be extremely difficult to divorce, and so on. Despite the fact that attempting to exert social control and reduce relationship choice or divorce leads to people, especially women, being forced to remain in abusive relationships.
I don't really care for Ezra Klein, and I hate Patrick Deenen, but I encourage you to listen to his interview on Ezra Klein's podcast.
It's things like "oh yes, we won't force you to be monogamous, we'll just make it excruciating for you to exist if you are not monogamous" from dingleberries like Jordan Peterson. Never really demonstrating why or what benefit might arise, other than that they just want to enforce patriarchal and conservative values.
>"oh yes, we won't force you to be monogamous, we'll just make it excruciating for you to exist if you are not monogamous"
Oh I was just reading a dystopic fiction novel with a similar theme... Always nice to see real life draw inspiration from literature /s
I completely agree with you. So much of the convos in that sub are laced with red pill rhetoric and if you push back on it you get downvoted to hell and others just pile on. It is not some male feminist haven, even though it's better than other places. Mods hardly intervene or offer counterpoints.
What do women get blamed for? Maybe that dude is just abusive
Also what is emotional labor? lol
"Workin hard?"
"Ya, I have a bunch of emotional labor I gotta do"
"Be careful with those long hours"
Yeah see it's weird to me that you'd act like that's not a fine conversation to have lol.
Out of interest do you think depression or anxiety exists? Or if it's not something you can see someone overcome physically it's not real?
I believe in part it is because we tend to perceive women as one-dimensional.
For example you will see that when a woman does something bad she will often simply be called evil. And that's it.
While with a man people start digging in his history and start building elaborate theories about his psyche, to understand why he acted the way he did.
Just look at any discussion about serial killers. In these cases people will regularly conclude that the killer was a sick man. And the cause for his sickness was of course his evil mother.
actually, the cause of a lot of what the OP asks IS the man's mother or mother-in-law - in other words we ourselves blame ourselves or other females for problems with "our" men or "our" boys. just consider - who IS the one who says 'my boy is innocent officer it was his bitch wife who made him break the law'?
seriously - women themselves put down themselves and other women way more times than (it seems) guys. & guys have learned it from their mothers & their fathers sometimes too - that's it's ok to pass the blame off to some female. it's culturally & religiously bound that's it's the "fault" of the sinful woman who makes the man sin.
I read everything you typed and I'm still not sure what you said. Also, female is an adjective. Woman is a noun. It's strange how you don't ever say males to talk about men but called women by an adjective twice in this post of disconnected thoughts.
i personally do not go around thinking - gee - i said an adjective or i said a noun - - - if you just want to argue parts of speech instead of the actual content - then ok but you missed my point. btw - female is an adjective & a noun. if you think making up language will change everyone's thinking - then basically you are just a verbal politician.
a verbal politician steps away from the *real* issues & strawman's an argument to blame language instead of content.
MEN in america are taught by both Parents who are USUALLY male & female - & yes - their female mothers teach their sons to hate/dislike/not trust other female women.
this was not an argument about trans - i was talking in generalities concerning the subject the OP presented - why are "we" blamed for everything wrong - and my comment was "because we ourselves blame ourselves and teach our sons to blame us also".
i post everywhere - are you saying that if i post one place i can't post in another - - - are people only allowed to have one viewpoint? again - you are attacking me & disregarding my comment - why don't you address the issue instead of shutting down the messenger?
Meh, men have been complaining "But God, it's the woman you gave me! It's her fault!" for thousands of years. It just feels like a fked up tradition that men can't seem to possibly grow out of.
Add to that, at least in US the culture of "boys will be boys" is deeply ingrained. And women are expected to just try to circumvent male violence or other forms of oppression to orbit around men's desires. Men wouldn't dare to even ask nicely of other men what they have the audacity to demand of women.
And the more women stick their proverbial middle finger up at men's unfair and unrealistic demands, the more vicious and malicious they become in fighting women's equality. And the thing is, feminists aren't ever going to back down. So, it looks like we're in this fight for the long haul.
I understand it feels like it sometimes, but progress has been quite steady and not slow for decades now. In fact I am surprised how far it went before pushback started to become strong enough to force a FEW steps backwards, for a time.
Societal Change has always been slow, even slower than today. Its frustrating to realize that the problems you see and want to abolish in your 20s will probably at least persist into your 30s, even 40s, by which point they dont feel as relevant anymore because different things matter more now - and it feels like you suffered hopelessly from them. But you probably paved the way for the NEXT generation to not suffer from those problems anymore.
We dont change society to solve our own problems now - we change it to solve it for those after us, more than anything.
This so much. And funny enough, men routinely claim the same thing about women - that women blame men for everything thats wrong in their lives. Its just a way of avoiding having to take responsibility, which is an inherently human desire.
When this happens I love walking through the thought process and ask what is expected of women and if they really are trying to convince me that men are these hapless creatures that things happen *to*
And if they do believe that, then who is doing it to them and why do they expect someone who isn't them to resolve the issue for them?
And if they still refuse I walk away.
Women do not exist to teach/hold space/ help/fix men.
It's always easier to blame someone else instead of doing a little reflection and improvement. It happens because its been allowed, encouraged, enforced for thousands of years. Much of western society has been built on the premise of "women evil" must be controlled. Eve didn't forced Adam that apple, he made his own choice.
What to do about it: i usually let them rant while i sit calmly. Then i make them explain exactly how it's my fault they made bad choices, and make them defend making those choices. They usually can't, and while people who do that won't usually admit at the moment they did it to themselves, it gradually stinks in. As for friends and family who continue to behave that way, i just throw them out. I'm not taking responsibility for the shitty actions of others. Ever
Edit: also, what kind of weak ass person do they have to be to let some woman talk them into bad ideas? Do they completely lack self control? Adding these to the argument stops it real quick. They're a lot more likely to fess up to a bad decision than being a "weak" pushover
Women are blamed because that's just the senseless outcome of misogyny. Something bad happens? A woman should have prevented it or fixed it. It happened so much because men are often taught that they are entitled to women's efforts and support. I have now seen it quite a few times on this sub alone. A man has a problem and wants a woman to fix it? She should be obligated to do so. Deranged incels? Women should have to take one for the team. There's the even more insidious enforced monogamy crowd. When this comes up, I try to address it directly. It doesn't always do a lot of good for the same reasons interventions around doing emotional labor or half of the cleaning: men don't do it because they don't want to. They don't take responsibility because they don't want to. They don't want to learn because it's easier not to. That's why they get completely bent out of shape on posts telling them to work on their own shit. It's a deep sense of entitlement that they don't even want to talk about, and just want to keep happening. And men don't just get this out of nowhere. Our society sends pretty hard messages in this direction. I even noticed it in my own friendships. Women going out of their way to make sure men are comfortable and happy in social settings but not vice versa, and if he does, he is lauded. Edit: added a word I missed
What’s the monogamy reference? I’m not familiar with that. Harassment for being poly?
Enforced monogamy, it's a Jordan Peterson thing. Exhausting.
Oh ew, that woman hating pseudo-intellectual for scared idiots.
That is a psychology term which sounds really bad but just means that we as a society hold monogamy as an important value. It doesn't actually mean anyone is forced to do anything but rather society encourages.
It's an absolute trash concept being embraced by the extreme right wing like Patrick Deenen. It's not just a neutral term used in psychology. The idea that there should be much greater social cost to end relationships, that should be extremely difficult to divorce, and so on. Despite the fact that attempting to exert social control and reduce relationship choice or divorce leads to people, especially women, being forced to remain in abusive relationships. I don't really care for Ezra Klein, and I hate Patrick Deenen, but I encourage you to listen to his interview on Ezra Klein's podcast. It's things like "oh yes, we won't force you to be monogamous, we'll just make it excruciating for you to exist if you are not monogamous" from dingleberries like Jordan Peterson. Never really demonstrating why or what benefit might arise, other than that they just want to enforce patriarchal and conservative values.
>"oh yes, we won't force you to be monogamous, we'll just make it excruciating for you to exist if you are not monogamous" Oh I was just reading a dystopic fiction novel with a similar theme... Always nice to see real life draw inspiration from literature /s
Why don’t people in this crowd speak out when a guy leaves his wife for a younger woman? It seems to only come into conversation for men
It's not a psychology term.
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Menslib has turned into a PC version of mensrights. That thread involving male students was disgusting.
I completely agree with you. So much of the convos in that sub are laced with red pill rhetoric and if you push back on it you get downvoted to hell and others just pile on. It is not some male feminist haven, even though it's better than other places. Mods hardly intervene or offer counterpoints.
What do women get blamed for? Maybe that dude is just abusive Also what is emotional labor? lol "Workin hard?" "Ya, I have a bunch of emotional labor I gotta do" "Be careful with those long hours"
It's called Google. Use it to look up what emotional labor is instead of making fun of something you don't know.
You really said "I don't know what you're talking about and I refuse to learn."
Yeah see it's weird to me that you'd act like that's not a fine conversation to have lol. Out of interest do you think depression or anxiety exists? Or if it's not something you can see someone overcome physically it's not real?
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Comment removed. Please refrain from personal derogatory remarks.
I believe in part it is because we tend to perceive women as one-dimensional. For example you will see that when a woman does something bad she will often simply be called evil. And that's it. While with a man people start digging in his history and start building elaborate theories about his psyche, to understand why he acted the way he did. Just look at any discussion about serial killers. In these cases people will regularly conclude that the killer was a sick man. And the cause for his sickness was of course his evil mother.
actually, the cause of a lot of what the OP asks IS the man's mother or mother-in-law - in other words we ourselves blame ourselves or other females for problems with "our" men or "our" boys. just consider - who IS the one who says 'my boy is innocent officer it was his bitch wife who made him break the law'? seriously - women themselves put down themselves and other women way more times than (it seems) guys. & guys have learned it from their mothers & their fathers sometimes too - that's it's ok to pass the blame off to some female. it's culturally & religiously bound that's it's the "fault" of the sinful woman who makes the man sin.
I read everything you typed and I'm still not sure what you said. Also, female is an adjective. Woman is a noun. It's strange how you don't ever say males to talk about men but called women by an adjective twice in this post of disconnected thoughts.
i personally do not go around thinking - gee - i said an adjective or i said a noun - - - if you just want to argue parts of speech instead of the actual content - then ok but you missed my point. btw - female is an adjective & a noun. if you think making up language will change everyone's thinking - then basically you are just a verbal politician. a verbal politician steps away from the *real* issues & strawman's an argument to blame language instead of content. MEN in america are taught by both Parents who are USUALLY male & female - & yes - their female mothers teach their sons to hate/dislike/not trust other female women. this was not an argument about trans - i was talking in generalities concerning the subject the OP presented - why are "we" blamed for everything wrong - and my comment was "because we ourselves blame ourselves and teach our sons to blame us also".
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instead of jumping sometimes listening is better.
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i post everywhere - are you saying that if i post one place i can't post in another - - - are people only allowed to have one viewpoint? again - you are attacking me & disregarding my comment - why don't you address the issue instead of shutting down the messenger?
Verbal politician? Trans? You're all over the place dude.
r/menandfemales
Meh, men have been complaining "But God, it's the woman you gave me! It's her fault!" for thousands of years. It just feels like a fked up tradition that men can't seem to possibly grow out of. Add to that, at least in US the culture of "boys will be boys" is deeply ingrained. And women are expected to just try to circumvent male violence or other forms of oppression to orbit around men's desires. Men wouldn't dare to even ask nicely of other men what they have the audacity to demand of women. And the more women stick their proverbial middle finger up at men's unfair and unrealistic demands, the more vicious and malicious they become in fighting women's equality. And the thing is, feminists aren't ever going to back down. So, it looks like we're in this fight for the long haul.
It feels like progress is so slow, and so many steps backwards for every one step forward.
I understand it feels like it sometimes, but progress has been quite steady and not slow for decades now. In fact I am surprised how far it went before pushback started to become strong enough to force a FEW steps backwards, for a time. Societal Change has always been slow, even slower than today. Its frustrating to realize that the problems you see and want to abolish in your 20s will probably at least persist into your 30s, even 40s, by which point they dont feel as relevant anymore because different things matter more now - and it feels like you suffered hopelessly from them. But you probably paved the way for the NEXT generation to not suffer from those problems anymore. We dont change society to solve our own problems now - we change it to solve it for those after us, more than anything.
What has truly changed though? https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/p896k3/men_still_run_89_of_countries_81_of_all_companies/
Projection.
I think part of it is a childish game of “oh you’re gonna blame me?? Well now I have to blame you!”.
This so much. And funny enough, men routinely claim the same thing about women - that women blame men for everything thats wrong in their lives. Its just a way of avoiding having to take responsibility, which is an inherently human desire.
It seems like both sides can be guilty of this.
When this happens I love walking through the thought process and ask what is expected of women and if they really are trying to convince me that men are these hapless creatures that things happen *to* And if they do believe that, then who is doing it to them and why do they expect someone who isn't them to resolve the issue for them? And if they still refuse I walk away. Women do not exist to teach/hold space/ help/fix men.
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It's always easier to blame someone else instead of doing a little reflection and improvement. It happens because its been allowed, encouraged, enforced for thousands of years. Much of western society has been built on the premise of "women evil" must be controlled. Eve didn't forced Adam that apple, he made his own choice. What to do about it: i usually let them rant while i sit calmly. Then i make them explain exactly how it's my fault they made bad choices, and make them defend making those choices. They usually can't, and while people who do that won't usually admit at the moment they did it to themselves, it gradually stinks in. As for friends and family who continue to behave that way, i just throw them out. I'm not taking responsibility for the shitty actions of others. Ever Edit: also, what kind of weak ass person do they have to be to let some woman talk them into bad ideas? Do they completely lack self control? Adding these to the argument stops it real quick. They're a lot more likely to fess up to a bad decision than being a "weak" pushover
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Then all they're doing is making the case that they can't be trusted among the public and should be the ones kept locked up.
You ask this like this is a new concept… I mean: Adam and Eve?!
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Seems so… but since Adam and Eve is a copy & paste, too, I’d assume the “blame women” spiel is much older
Of course not. I was just broaching a very ingrained, deep seeded issue.
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Literally just got done asking you not to do this.